From an anonymous friend who works on Capitol Hill.
We–and by we I mean all Democrats in Congress–need to hear from more supporters. It is clear that the teabaggers have been far more organized than liberals and progressives, but your efforts are reminding us that the American people are on our side and giving us the morale boost we need to get this bill passed. Please keep up the good work.
You know what to do.
Task Force Ripper
Oh balls.
Jim
So e-mail’s useless? Is there any point to snail mail? I work better on paper. But I’ll call both Senators and my critter Monday a.m.
Matt Rubin
I did a quick scan of the major progressive “activist” sites, and Balloon Juice seems to be the only one with a major effort underway to contact members of congress on behalf of the Senate Bill + reconcillation approach.
No Rec’d diaries at Kos, nothing on MyDD, nor Open Left, certainly not on FDL, where they’re going after committed progressives who haven’t pledged to KILL the senate bill.
What the balls is going on here?
Comrade Kevin
@Jim: Emails aren’t useless, but phone calls are definitely the best way to go.
Mary G
Obama has started talking about fighting….http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/01/22/president-obama-finds-new-approach-to-healthcare-stump/
Let’s not give up now…
Demo Woman
Earlier somebody mentioned that if you receive information from your representative or the national parties, sign the cards with a note stating no money until health care is passed. Money talks folks.
arguingwithsignposts
@Comrade Kevin: This is sort of sad, because I find that I express myself much more clearly via the written word. When I’m on the phone, I get nervous and lack sufficient vocabulary. My rep. is a teabagging a-hole, so a call to him would do about as much good as scooping water from the ocean with a teaspoon, but I’ll call my sens. Monday, and try to send an e-mail to the congressional leadership and obama.
hmd
Don’t give up.
It is clear that, for whatever reason, the Democratic leadership didn’t have an organized response to the situation in hand. So of course, things will be in flux for a few days while they get a flashlight and extract their heads. Now is the time that phone calls and contacts will help them see the light.
Ron
Yoo-hoo, Tim…I both posted a comment and emailed you about Arcuri. I understand that the best way to categorize the response I got is as “meh” but at least update the list. (Okay, whine done.)
gbear
Called my rep (McCollum) yesterday. Both the local and DC offices. I’m not sure multiple calls will help because her staff writes down your name and address when you call. They’ll know I’m spamming.
Knocienz
Phone is better than email, but actually visiting the congress-critters office will get their attention better than either if you can schedule it. Last time I visited my Republican congressman, I refused the polite hints that they were really busy and as a result got about 45 minutes with the district office chief of staff.
Stroszek
Well, I now feel slightly less silly for calling Pelosi’s office and beginning my rant with “I’m from Tennessee!”
flounder
@Jim,
I have heard that faxes work. There are some websites where you can send a free fax from your computer. I haven’t used one lately so I can’t direct to the easiest way to do this.
@Tim
Hey I called Ann Kirkpatrick’s (AZ-01) office and she is non-committal but from two conversations with staffers over the last 3 days I think they are supportive. With Democrats running in a bad year she will be one of the first on the chopping block and I always make sure to point out that she won’t win unless Dems are looked at as winners, no matter how much “blue ribbon deficit reduction panel” red meat she tries to throw the teabaggers (who really, really, hate her).
Micheline
Called Kendrick Meek’s office and spoke with an assistant who told me Meek will support the Senate bill.
jenniebee
@Demo Woman:
Could someone explain to me the rationale for thinking that there are enough votes in the Senate to fix this thing? What happens if the bill passes and it isn’t fixed for years, would that matter?
I am for HCR, but this strategy doesn’t resonate with me.
BTW, even the direst forecasts for Dems leaves them with majorities in both houses after November. What are the odds that the Senate rules regarding the filibuster don’t get changed at the beginning of the next session?
Fern
Tim, thank you for doing what you’re doing. I’m on the wrong side of your long northern border to be of any use, but I’m cheering for you all like you wouldn’t believe.
mcc
@Matt Rubin: TPM is doing something like this pretty aggressively.
Washington Monthly / Steve Benen ran a post hyping the call-in efforts here and at Kevin Drum’s blog.
mcc
Yes, but if 59 seats in the Senate is a minority, then just imagine what 54 seats will be * rolleyes *
Max
@Micheline: I really like Kendrick. He is doing good things in Haiti.
Does he have any shot at that Senate seat?
Stroszek
@jenniebee: It only takes 50 votes in the Senate to use the reconciliation procedure, and since making fixes to tax policy is what reconciliation is all about, there’s absolutely nothing controversial about using it to tweak the excise tax and maybe inserting some other funding mechanism. Even Kent Conrad signed off on this idea earlier in the week.
So basically, even when you rule out the various asswipes who were probably getting ready to kill the bill even if Coakley cruised to reelection (i.e., Lieberman, Bayh, Landrieu, Lincoln), you’ve still got quite a few Senators you can lose. The basic support is definitely there. The only question is whether there’s political will to move ahead.
gwangung
@jenniebee: I think that’s a rational concern. It’s not clear that there are enough Senators to vote for reconcilliation of things like the excise tax in a separate bill at this point.
On the other hand, the other alternative is to have a wider reconcilliation bill, and I doubt there is 60 votes there to retain anything except the mandates (which is pointless without the pre-condition and recision curtailments).
CaseyL
I’m not sure what more to do: I’ve called my Rep and my Senators. I don’t call other Reps and Senators because they won’t listen to anyone who isn’t in their district/state – good lord, it’s hard enough to get noticed by the ones who do “represent” us (pardon me while I laugh hysterically).
Most of my realspace friends have already made calls. And I’ve posted a plea on FB, asking my FB buddies to call their Reps and Senators, too.
Should we be calling repeatedly? I mean, I will if that will actually help – I just don’t see how.
Tim Chambers
@matt:
Populista, and a number of other authors at DailyKos are pushing also:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/1/21/828459/-Time-to-deliver
As I see them there I’ll highlight them here too so we can Rec them up.
Also watch #passit hashtag on twitter…
Yutsano
@Max: According to Nate no, at least definitely not if Crist is the nominee. Rubio turns into an instant toss-up.
Tim F.
@CaseyL: Call every day if you can. Call each office as well.
mcc
@Micheline: Kendrick Meek seems really awesome. I’m kind of excited about his run for Senate.
The Republic of Stupidity
There… that’s better…
General Winfield Stuck
@Tim F.:
Yes.
mcc
@Tim Chambers:
Please do. I haven’t been reading DailyKos for a while.
Max
@Yutsano: Well, in that case, I’m Team Rubio.
Thanks for the info.
Jim
@jenniebee:
Cole gave the number 53 pro-reconciliation Senators earlier. I don’t know if that was pure speculation or educated guess, but there were, by most accounts, 59 votes for Medicare expansion before Lieberman decided that Anthony Wiener was scary. I personally am highly doubtful that Nelson, Bayh or Lincoln would have gone along, but 51 for a better HCR bill is not such a stretch. And I sincerely believe the alternative is not a ‘shit sandwich’ on health care, but a Roman fucking orgy of bullshit, Sarah Palin and Evan Bayh, complete with vomitoria, goat-fucking and David Broder as King of the Feast in gold body paint, seated on a throne of “Democrats must take the lesson that Americans want bipartisanship!” while Cokie Roberts, Juan Williams, Norah O’Donnell and Luke Russert writhe in ecstatic fits of Conventional Wisdom at his feet.
I could be wrong.
Stroszek
@The Republic of Stupidity: Good point. It doesn’t hurt to have an entire cable net as your messaging outlet. MSNBC is now owned by a huge Republican contributor, so the chances of expanding their whiny liberal primetime ghetto into a full Democratic propaganda house (which I would unabashedly support) is fairly slim.
If only more people watched Link TV…
Davis X. Machina
Most congressional offices still take good old fax. It’s got a phone number on it, which proves it came from in-district, like a letter, but it’s fast, and unlike a phone call, if it’s really good it can get handed around, or stuck up on a bulletin board.
zhak
Let me get this straight. A bunch of ill-informed rabble-rousers who did their damn best to stifle democracy by drowning out the opposition — a bunch of people who traffic in lies — a bunch of people consisting of a sizable subgroup who are genuinely disturbed — they’re being “heard” by elected Democrats? Why? Why would any elected official of either party listen to any of those people? We are now a nation where whomever throws the biggest tantrum — irrespective of the truth of their argument — wins the day?
Did I get that right? Because if I did, we might as well call it a day on Democracy and just move smoothly into a fascistic oligarchy.
I just don’t understand this at all. For example, the Republicans bray about things like tax cuts. They don’t work. What little good they’d do in a healthy economy (which ours certainly is not) is far outweighed by resultant ballooning deficits. Simply put, tax cuts do not create revenue. So, um, why isn’t this pointed out? Like, every single time someone brings up tax cuts? I had to sit through way too many of Brown’s campaign ads and basically his “bold new plan” to right the economy is … more tax cuts. Another example, the health care thing. Why doesn’t anybody point out, every time a Republican says we have the bestest ever health care, that, per all the known facts, such a statement bears no resemblance to the truth?
I guess I want to know why the Republicans always get to frame the message, and no Democrat seems willing to actually call them on their lies.
Our country is in big trouble, and these clowns are worrying about teabaggers?
jwb
@Mary G: Yes, I saw this and wondered who finally made sure that Obama got the memo.
John Cole
@Jim: No I didn’t. I don’t think there are the required 50 + biden.
Snowshoe
Is there any point to calling Republican reps? I’ve called mine once, and I’m happy to keep calling & yanking his chain. Just curious whether you think it matters.
General Winfield Stuck
@Tim F.: Thanks for your effort doing this TimF. You too mcc!!
cfaller96
BTW, for those who aren’t represented by someone interested in your opinion on health care (e.g.
douchebagsRepublicans), definitely give a call to out of district/state reps and Senators that you’ve contributed to and let them know you want them to pursue a cleanup/reconciliation route to FINISH this round of health care reform.They pay attention to contributors, even if they’re not constituents. It worked for me awhile ago when I called Kay Hagen and told a staffer that I would remember in 2014 her holding up the HELP committee vote on HCR. When you put on your best Hannibal Lecter voice and start calmly describing how much money and time you plan on devoting to a primary challenge, sometimes they listen.
Lolis
Why are these lawmakers so scared? I don’t get it.
Massachusetts has very similar health care reforms and over 80% of the population don’t want them overturned. Scott Brown doesn’t want it overturned. I’m sorry but this bill is not going to be unpopular. I am tired of all the hand holding legislators need here. Do the right thing and it will also be popular politically. Once it passes, the media will stop reporting the horse race and inform people how it will help them.
Jim
@John Cole:
D’oh! Sorry, it was DougJ
jwb
@The Republic of Stupidity: Yes, but they’ve also been better organized. Our organization has sucked big time. I remember complaining about this last summer while everyone was eating popcorn laughing at the teabag spectacle. Well, we’re paying for that entertainment now and our inability to organize.
Hell, why isn’t someone using the crisis to organize a HCR march on Washington now?
The Republic of Stupidity
@Stroszek:
And while we’re at it, let’s not forget that Fox has been repeatedly caught doctoring video of ‘Tea Parties’, trying to create the impression they were far larger than they really were. Or that protesters were bused to and from events by Koch Industries, and the very phrase ‘TeaParty’ was originally dreamed up by FreedomWorks (Dick Armey) and also had ties to the aformentioned Koch Industries.
This is worth pointing out over and over again.
Grass roots movement my Cheney…
***spits on ground***
The Republic of Stupidity
@jwb:
Heh… see 42.
This whole ‘teabagging’ phenomenon didn’t come about in a vacuum. The GOOPers were planning as far back as the summer of 2008.
The Republic of Stupidity
@zhak:
Gee… when you put itTHAT way… it doesn’t sound very credible, does it…?
jwb
@The Republic of Stupidity: None of that fucking matters because even at their actual numbers they were still far larger than anything the left bothered mount. It’s sort of like all this talk about the relative value of contacting your rep through email or by phone. The appearance of organized protest counts a lot — and we on the left spent all year laughing at it rather than organizing our own demonstrations of support.
Skepticat
@arguingwithsignposts: If you don’t have a teleprompter right at hand, write out a script and stick to it. I’m a writer who speaks poorly, and this helps me.
@zhak: Spot on. Damned discouraging, isn’t it?
gwangung
@jwb: You know, I seem to recall mentioning that organizing like that would be helpful…
jwb
@The Republic of Stupidity: I’m not saying the teabaggers came about in a vacuum. I’m not saying they weren’t bought and paid for. None of that matters because what they represent, just like phone calls represent, are voters who are willing to take the time to appear or call. If we are too lazy to mount a rally or pick up the goddamn phone to register our point of view, then why should the pol believe we will be of any account come election day?
David
Something I haven’t seen expressed anywhere yet, is that that after Brown has been seated in the Senate, the current bill would fail in the Senate. It is now officially the most liberal bill the Senate could pass this Congress. On what planet does it make sense to continue to negotiate with the Senate, when the current bill is essentially “too liberal to pass” anymore?
jwb
@gwangung: And if I saw your comment I endorsed it. I remember endorsing the idea the few times I’ve seen it posted on these threads.
The Republic of Stupidity
@jwb:
I disagree. It was a manufactured phenomenon, and not nearly as large as Fox News tried to pretend.
I’m not quite sure why everyone thinks the Teabaggers are so ferocious. I personally suspect the Dems are afraid to pass HCR for two reasons. What if it doesn’t work? And how will the big money healthcare companies react?
I say the Dems are doing this weird Kabuki to give the impression They Care™ whilst secretly hoping the Repubs take the blame for its failure. Unfortunately, they’ve gotten their nads, or whatever pass for nads in their case, in a grinder.
The Republic of Stupidity
@jwb:
If we
Why are you trying so hard to bash this side?
You don’t know how many teabaggers called, and how many of us called, do you? You CAN’T quantify this. It sounds like you’re making excuses for the Dems who waffled w/out really knowing WHY they did.
And if I didn’t know better, I’d say you’re trying to help make the Baggers look a lot more important and powerful than they deserve to be.
Saaaaaaaaay… anybody recognize this guy?
Mnemosyne
@arguingwithsignposts:
I’ve heard they tend to take mailed letters very seriously, though that may have been pre-anthrax. Maybe send it via Priority Mail so it gets there faster?
@jenniebee:
It’s basically that the parts that people are most upset about (the excise tax, etc.) are clearly budget-related and can be dealt with through reconciliation, which only requires 51 votes and can’t be filibustered. (They will sunset, though, so a more permanent fix will eventually have to be done.) The actual reform parts (like banning pre-existing conditions) cannot be put through reconciliation, which is why the bill needs to be passed and not just handled through reconciliation.
maus
@Task Force Ripper:
Exactly, bullshit. We’re better organized, but absolutely marginalized by the media and not bankrolled by corporate interests. The GOP co-opted the teabaggers, while the Democrats tell us to fuck off at every opportunity. How is that a fair comparison?
Cassidy
Oh bullshit. They need phone calls? They need reminders? I got an idea, turn on a motherfucking TV. Go to a hospital in the inner city. Need a fucking push to do what’s right…fuck’em.
JasonF
Strangely enough, Conan O’Brien’s farewell speech kind of made me feel reinvigorated about the possibility of passing health care.
jwb
@The Republic of Stupidity: I don’t think the teabaggers are particularly ferocious, though I was a bit worried about them this summer until it became clear to me that demographically they were no danger of cracking heads. But I also don’t think the teabaggers are impotent or that they can be discounted simply because they have corporate underwriting. Fox is complete propaganda but you don’t dare discount the reality and power of Fox voters because of that. I also think you are underestimating the political power that accrues to the spectacle of mass demonstration. It has that power at least in part because it remains hard to pull off. There is a reason why the left hasn’t managed to put together a decent demonstration since the inauguration (if you want to count that): demonstrations take a lot of effort. It’s much easier just to sit in front of a computer and blog about how stupid and feckless our pols are–which is not to say that our pols are not stupid and feckless. (Sorry about the double negative there; I’m too fried to fix it.)
The Republic of Stupidity
@maus:
fasteddie9318
@ Cassidy
You said it. How can Republicans manage to go on doing all the unpopular shit they like to do without blinking an eye, but Democrats get rubbery in the knees when it comes to doing the right thing unless people are constantly calling to tell them everything’s OK? Why can’t this goddamn party grow a fucking spine?
The Republic of Stupidity
@jwb:
Whoa… beautiful piece of obfuscation there… first you try backing away from your original comment. Then you apparently try slipping in a cheap shot or two, and end up excusing yourself because you’re ‘too fried’…
Nice work…
Tim Chambers
From Politico:
“Struggling to salvage health reform, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi have begun considering a list of changes to the Senate bill in hopes of making it acceptable to liberal House members, according to sources familiar with the situation.
The changes could be included in separate legislation that, if passed, would pave the way for House approval of the Senate bill – a move that would preserve President Barack Obama’s vision of a sweeping health reform plan.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0110/31886.html#ixzz0dPcTmVtZ“
Ecks
The parts like banning recision might actually pass on their own, if the difficult stuff separately went through reconciliation, and apparently the GOP are even considering swooping in to support those parts, so they can claim credit for it, while letting the dems own the unpopular parts that have to go with it.
Yeah, just approve the damn senate version, and tweak for votes later in reconciliation.
The people don’t care about this politicking, they really truly don’t. They just want results at the end of hte day.
Ecks
@The Republic of Stupidity:
I don’t know, but a few potshots about how timid we’ve been and how we need to organize more might not actually be a bad thing, whether or not they are true. Clearly we DO need a kick in the pants to get us collectively motivated enough to get some better organization rolling.
Izak
I really wish I could get behind this, but I have no faith that anything will be fixed via reconciliation, and we will be stuck with a mandate to buy shitty insurance not to mention the excise tax.
I can get behind calling both my senators and demanding Medicare by-in via reconciliation (50+ or 200% of poverty level). That would give cover to progressives in the House to pass the Senate bill.
Though, even with progressives, the votes still might not be there. Has anyone heard from pro-life House Dems? Cause you’re not going to be able to deny reproductive-rights via reconciliation.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Ecks:
What’s w/ the Royal WE?
When WE come up w/ a deep-pocket backer like Koch Industries, and WE get a friendly cable network like Fox on our side, then WE can come across like the Teabaggers too?
Why do you want to give so much power to the Teabaggers?
And why are you playing down the influence of the big money deep pockets behind the scences?
Saaaaaaaaaay… are some of you fellas trollin’ here?
maus
@The Republic of Stupidity: And the full complicity/endorsement of the corporate media.
jwb
@The Republic of Stupidity: No, I don’t mean to make excuses for the pols, whose behavior has been feckless and largely reprehensible. But I don’t exempt the rest of the left either, especially the activists and organizers who have been completely outplayed by the wingnut activists. It’s not just the Dem pols but the entire left political appartus that has got pwned in this. The teabaggers are undoubtedly pawns, but they are the visible manifestation of the wingnut activism and so a political representation of power. The unions are the only left organization that has anything like this visibility. We need more of such visible manifestations of left activism. IMO. Usual caveats apply.
jwb
@maus: What’s your evidence that we are better organized?
Tim Chambers
Speaking of DailyKos posts to REC up, I just added one:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/1/23/829188/-Reid-Pelosi-May-Make-one-More-Push-for-Real-Health-Care-Reform
Hiram Taine
@jwb:
There was a *huge* and angry demonstration in DC on Jan 20, 2001, the presidential limo got egged among other things, the only place you saw it was on CSPAN and then really only briefly, if you were watching the M$M you would have never known it happened.
Demonstrations only work if they get media attention, demonstrations the media do not favor will not get attention from them.
Something Fabulous
I’ve been thinking about this all day on and off and have been hesitant to appear too [insert derogatory epithet here: we seem to have an elegant abundance from which to choose, some combination of O-Bot and poopy-head, perhaps]. That is, while I would hate to think this was an INTENDED consequence, because that would be a wastefully indirect– not to mention almost sadistically manipulative– way to go about it, I realized this morning that while I have over the decades: attended protests and rallies; signed petitions; donated money; voted EVERY time since I have been old enough to vote…
yesterday is the first time I have ever called my member of congress.
This ridiculous, messy, drawn-out process has gotten us, all across the left, engaged in the actual process of legislation in a way I have never seen before. Dare I say, fired up and ready to go. (Go where, of course, remains a bit… problematic.) But this President did campaign on getting us all more involved, didn’t he?
ETA: SF, +3ish.
Elise
I wrote about this today… . There’s some great tips for calling in one of the updates!
jwb
@The Republic of Stupidity: I never fucking said the teabaggers were furocious; at best I implied that they were effective. And I stand by my statement that the teabaggers have been far more effective than the left wing activists and organizers.
Ron
@David:
The negotiations would have to be on matters that could be resolved by reconciliation, which is not subject to filibuster.
Yutsano
So…do we re-trench from here? I think honestly we as constituents need a game plan. Tim I will say your efforts may yet be bearing fruit, but I think we need to step up to whatever the next level of organization is. Thoughts?
EDIT: BTW my congressman is a longtime Republican who just needs to keep breathing to get elected. He’s pretty much just a pork shoveler who keeps the government money flowing in here, and this area just breathes teabagger. Funny world this is.
Nick
Friend of mine on the Hill said something similar.
When I asked what would get a good healthcare bill passed, she replied “a torch-wielding mob on the National Mall”
David
@Ron: I probably wasn’t clear, of course fixing the bill by reconciliation needs to happen after the House passes it. I’m referring to the idea that there’s some other way forward other than passing the bill and fixing it through reconciliation. Like changing the Senate bill and sending it back to the Senate or completely starting over.
Nick
@Hiram Taine: Get the attention.
jwb
@Hiram Taine: yes, there were lots of demonstrations during the Bush administration and usually I heard something about them. They gave me great hope in those dark, dark days. There were big demonstrations at the climate congress last year as well; I also heard about them. The point is: has there been a major demonstration in the US by the left since Obama was inaugurated? Why didn’t we have a march on Washington planned for HRC during the summer when it was very clear, even before the teabaggers shifted into full gear, that a good rally of support would be of infinite help in moving the bill in a progressive direction?
Nick
@Snowshoe: Yes, tell them “and if you think you’re gonna get a free ride this year because Democrats aren’t excited about voting, better think again, because I’m excited about replacing you”
Nick
@jwb:
I went to Washington for a protest in July with HCAN…only about 100 people showed up. MoveOn.org held a protest last month in front of Carolyn Maloney’s Queens office (she even showed up and talked to them), total turnout was…five.
deadrody
You people are out of your ever-living minds. The Tea Party folks are more organized ? Are you nuts ? The nutroots are far more active, engaged, and organized than the older Tea Party crowd. These are not young whipper snapper, iPhone using, mobile facebook posting hipsters you are talking about.
Maybe, just maybe, the reason is not some small minority that is out-organizing and out-activisting the nutroots. Maybe, just maybe, the people that oppose this health care reform monstrosity VASTLY outnumber the supporters.
You might want to give that possibility a chance to roll around in your tiny pea brains.
Nick
@Cassidy: New to America? With an ignorant gullible public and a media that doesn’t care about people, yeah, a push isn’t even enough.
jwb
@The Republic of Stupidity: “Saaaaaaaaaay… are some of you fellas trollin’ here?” you’d know. Look in the mirror, asshole.
deadrody
@Matt Rubin: Hey that’s pretty funny. Balloon-juice is now a “progressive activist” blog. ROTFLMAO. From a one time “alleged conservative” to the only “progressive activist blog” on the web organizing a “call your Congressman and urge support for the wildly unpopular health care bill”. My how far you have sunk, John Cole.
Yutsano
@deadrody:
Fine then Alice, put up an alternative. And not just tax cuts and allowing policies to be sold across state lines, because we already know deregulation doesn’t cut it here. Here’s your shot, lay out your ideas, what would YOU propose?
Nick
@The Republic of Stupidity:
I witnessed a teaparty or whatever the fuck they’re calling it…it was a pretty large crowd.
deadrody
@Cassidy: Wait, I thought this was about people that can’t get health coverage ? How would visiting a hospital tell me about that ? Pretty sure all the people in hospitals are getting health care. You will have to enlighten me with how this pathetic 2000 page steaming pile is supposed to improve the conditions in any hospital anywhere.
Here’s a clue: It won’t and it was never intended to. It will take a whole lotta money and light it on fire, though!
David
@deadrody: Not a chance that it won’t end up being popular once it’s passed. Individual components of the bill continue to poll very well, and I’m really supposed to care that people dislike the bill because of the nonexistent death panels?
Remember, every time universal health care is implemented, it is very popular. Including Massachusetts that has the state version that this is so similar to. Don’t forget Brown supported the state version, so the idea that this will end up a disaster is a ridiculous talking point pushed by the GOP scared it’ll actually work.
jwb
@Nick: and that’s what you call a total fucking failure of organization. Why would a pol be concerned about either HCAN or MoveOn when they can’t even organize a proper protest? How the hell are they going to organize voters?
Who was it that was yelling about how much better organized we are?
deadrody
@Yutsano: Interesting. That’s my job, now ? I thought that’s what Congress was paid to do. You know, not ignore the fact that there are other people in this country than wild eyed liberals. Maybe, just maybe, if Nancy and Harry and Barack had spent the last year trying to put together a common sense reform bill instead of the most liberal, drunken sailor spending, accounting trick justifying piece of junk, they wouldn’t need to bribe members of their own damn party with $100 and $300 million to get their support.
If the party in power cannot garner even a SINGLE VOTE from the other party and the majority of America agrees with the minority party, maybe the problem isn’t with the minority party, but with the fools in power that have squandered an entire year with nothing to show for it.
I would love to know, however, what your basis is for saying “we already know” that allowing sales across state lines doesn’t work. Kinda hard to say that since we don’t allow it.
General Winfield Stuck
@deadrody: Wingnut trolls have been scarce lately. Refreshing.
Cain
Can I say something? I know we are all doom and gloom with the current political climate and all. I’m with you there. I still think we are STILL the greatest nation around. Our reaction to Haiti and what we do to help is still greater than any other nation. We are great because we still care and we give regardless of whether we are conservative or old. I’m still proud to be American.
Word.
cain
Mnemosyne
@deadrody:
Or maybe, just maybe, the tea partiers are being funded by corporate interests.
Of course, that’s not a maybe — that’s a fact.
Maybe, just maybe, you should stop making shit up.
David
@deadrody: You are clueless if you think this a liberal bill. Anyone with half a brain knows a liberal bill would be single payer. And you’re lying that there wasn’t a single GOP vote, forget about Cao in Louisina, did you? Your post has now crossed the line into la-la land, I can’t stop laughing at the idea that you actually might be serious.
jwb
@General Winfield Stuck: my thoughts exactly. Maybe the trolls help keep us from forming circular firing squads.
Nick
@jwb: Well they’re not and that’s the point, but HCAN and MoveOn promoted their protests, they promoted them a lot in their e-mail lists through Facebook and Twitter.
I think it’s a failure of the people themselves to get involved, for whatever reason. Either the topic just didn’t interest them, the whole thing was over their heads, it wasn’t single-payer, the public option wasn’t strong enough, public option too strong, taxes were disagreeable, needed more taxes. Everyone either had something in the bill to nitpick or were just generally not interested.
Yutsano
@deadrody: Apparently you’re just interested in tearing down and saying no. Typical wingnut behavior. I guess I shouldn’t have been surprised that you would refuse to rise up to the challenge of actually backing up your bashing with ideas, but I am an eternal optimist. I think you’re done here, you can trot back over to RedState now.
EDIT: FWIW I’m not a huge fan of the Senate bill as written, however I also recognize our health care system is heading for a train wreck. Oh and your example for how things weaken when crossing state lines? Credit cards. Why do you think they’re all based out of South Dakota and Delaware? They are the two states with the most lax credit card laws in the nation. See how this works? You’d be totally happy with reducing health care to the least common denominator. Thanks but no thanks, to quote your noble warrior queen.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@arguingwithsignposts:
I’m much the same but a way I have come up with to overcome it is to make a list of points I want to make, another of complaints I have and a last one telling them what I am in agreement with them on and thank them for their work. Granted that with DeFazio and Wyden on our side, we have it pretty good here in Oregon and it is easy to praise them for their work (unlike far too many other areas of the country).
With lists in hand, I find it much easier to get my message across and not leave gaping holes in my arguments by forgetting important points or information.
David
@Nick: And don’t forget the side promoting health care reform didn’t have any messages quite as headline grabbing as “killing grandma”, “death panels” or “cutting medicare”.
deadrody
@David: Based on what, David ? The benefits don’t go into effect for THREE YEARS (thanks to the accounting tricks used to pretend it is “deficit neutral). What are people going to be happy about ? Reduced medical innovation because of the new taxes and fees, or increased costs because of the same and massive (allegedly) medicare cuts ? I’m sure the elderly and retired will LOVE the new medicare cuts and the elimination of Medicare Advantage.
There is nothing in this bill for them to like.
As far as universal health care being popular, well sure, “free” health care is just as popular as is anything people believe is “free”. While residents of Massachusetts – where I live – generally support the idea (just 54-36 in the latest Suffolk poll), they also recognize by an even wider margin, 62-27%, that the state simply cannot afford it. And that is on the small scale of state run health care. The unaffordability will be off the charts high for a federal bill.
Of course the other trick is that the Senate bill does not even remotely resemble “universal health care”. I know that’s what the liberals have set out to pass, but the reality is nowhere close. In fact, without a public option, but with the insurance mandate, all you are doing is forcing people to buy private insurance on the open market. I’m sure the insurance industry is most pleased with the 30 million or so new customers you will be forcing to buy their product. And with free government money, too! Oh happy day. Can you smell the cost increases ?
deadrody
Oh wow, David, there WAS one vote. You guys should feel SO proud.
You’re right, its not THE liberal bill. You couldn’t get enough support to pass that from your own party. Instead its a cobbled together, deficit expanding, health insurance industry give-away.
Better get that thing passed PRONTO!
Yutsano
@deadrody: LOL! You just made the perfect argument for why we need the public option! That was too awesome for words!
Mnemosyne
@deadrody:
Banning pre-existing conditions.
Community ratings.
Caps on premiums.
Those are just off the top of my head.
You mean the cost increases that are capped in the bill? Or the cost increases that will get insurance companies banned from the exchange and those extra 30 million customers? You really need to be specific here.
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: The troll-fu, it is weak in this one. Much to learn it has.
tcolberg
@deadrody:
The tagline of the blog isn’t “Consistently Wrong Since 2002” for nothing.
deadrody
@Mnemosyne: Sorry, you can link to whatever stories you want about alleged corporate funding for Tea Party folks, but the truth is they are just average people. Have you seen the video of the actual Tea Parties ?
Are the polls showing health care opposition just wrong ? Is that it ? The evil polling organizations are all in cahoots now ?
Or is this more of the disinformation about how it will kill medical innovation, raise costs, result in shortages of doctors and equipment, SLASH medicare (if they have the balls to follow through with it), AND explode the deficit ? Only problem with that theory is that these problems are the truth of health care reform. You can keep on pretending the American people that oppose this bill by an ever growing margin are all morons and you smarty-smart liberals are the only ones that know best, and you will get more of the same as you saw on 1/19 next November.
I live in Massachusetts. Don’t kid yourselves into thinking that people here don’t know exactly what they were doing on Tuesday. There was no corporate masters telling us all to vote for Scott Brown. We did it all on our own. The only things that were pounding the airwaves for that last week were attack ads from the Coakley camp. Good stuff.
fasteddie9318
@ David
And the one who did, Grayson (“the Republican plan is ‘don’t get sick’ and, if you do get sick, ‘please die quickly'”) was quickly marginalized by our terminally brain-dead media as some kind of crazy nutjob, while Republicans talking about death panels and government execution of your grandma were treated as fully reasonable advocates in the debate.
Thank the fucking gods for that liberal media.
Mnemosyne
@deadrody:
Two votes, actually. Both the House and the Senate bills have passed. Now they’re trying to reconcile the two bills so the reconciled version can be approved by both chambers.
This video may help you with some of your confusion about the process.
Common Sense
I’m sure you are leery of another venture with Charles Johnson, John, but I hope you take part in this effort. I think we have to do something to break down the traditional media barrier.
deadrody
Ah, price caps. That always works out well. You might want to take a trip to Venezuela. Chavez is the master of price caps.
Little known fact – when you cap the price of something, eventually you can no longer charge what it costs to produce. And when that happens the product / service ceases to exist. I really look forward to that.
You all might want to look into an Econ-101 class. They’ll go over all this for you.
deadrody
@Mnemosyne: Hey, good luck with that. The senate isn’t passing a damn thing.
David
@deadrody: Have you not caught on yet that everyone here probably knows more about the health care reform than you do? Here’s your list of immediate benefits, all pretty significant.
And I missed this earlier because it’s so monumentally wrong I didn’t think any wingnuts were still attempting to push it, but the bill reduces the deficit.
Yutsano
@deadrody: So basically your answer is to…do nothing. Gotcha. And when your company chooses to cut your health insurance because it becomes unaffordable and you’re out there paying your doctors out of pocket, you will have zero right to complain because you got exactly what you wanted.
deadrody
@tcolberg:
Well, John may want to consider changing that to “Delusional since at least Jan 2010”.
It is quite entertaining to watch these people squabble over how best to jam through a health care bill that is wildly unpopular with the general public and essentially just cost the Democrats one of the most safely Democratic Senate seats in the country.
Pay no attention to that Iceberg, steady as she goes…
Cassidy
@deadrody: Thought about responding about how you’re a little off (inaccurate) in you response, but honestly don’t feel like wasting time.
David
The election in Massachusetts was about a crappy candidate. Voters that listed health care as their top concern supported Coakley. Turnout numbers indicated trouble in traditionally democratic areas, signaling a problem in the 2010 elections if health care doesn’t pass and the base stays home.
Common Sense
@David:
You’re right, but the Blue Dogs ain’t gonna notice.
Yutsano
@David: SShhh…you’ll cornfuzzle the per thang with all yer fancy facts and stuff!
Mnemosyne
@deadrody:
You mean the people who were bussed in by FreedomWorks? I think those are what you guys used to call “outside agitators” back when people wanted silly things like voting rights.
Of course, you guys don’t care if your corporate sponsors kill 23 seniors and then claim the government is to blame for their lawbreaking. I hope you didn’t get on one of the Tea Party Express buses without making sure they had a fire extinguisher on board.
Considering that the majority of people who say they’re against the Senate bill say in the same poll that they don’t actually know what’s in it, I don’t think the problem is the polling companies. They’re just reporting that your campaign of disinformation and outright lies is working and has convinced people that their grandma is going to be in front of a death panel before the end of 2010 if the bill passes.
Mnemosyne
@deadrody:
You should probably look into an Econ-102 class. You will be more than a little shocked when your professor tells you that at least half of the stuff you were told in Econ-101 doesn’t hold up in the real world.
deadrody
@David: Bullshit it does, David. Thats a good joke you have going there. The only way it is remotely deficit neutral is to start the taxes immediately and delay most (wow that’s some impressive list – I can’t wait to check out the internet portal, wonder how much that will cost after the $16 million recovery.org database) benefits until 2014. Oh and make $500 billion in cuts to medicare (that they will never make).
It is hysterical all the “caps” on prices, spending, and profits. Meanwhile we mandate people buy the product and pour government money into the market to help them do so. What could go wrong ?
PS – The Cato institute pegs the real cost at around $6.5 Trillion.
Not sure which is more pathetic – 1) that you believe the bullshit coming from Reid/Pelosi/Obama, or 2) that you know its bullshit, but you keep on parroting it anyhow.
Delusional is being kind with this crowd.
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: We respond with facts and links, it comes back with wingnut talking points. This is generally an unconstructive exercise, except I’m trapped with an orange tabby on my lap and well it’s kinda entertaining. Although I am honestly craving a milkshake.
David
Trolls are fun. I really only bother responding so random internet user that reads this later doesn’t see the BS and take it seriously.
deadrody
@David: No, it wasn’t. Do you live here ? Martha Coakley is an otherwise intelligent woman, good at what she does as AG. She ran on the Obama party line and got creamed in one of the bluest states in the country. Coakley was no world beater, but that loss is not on her by a LONG shot.
Yutsano
@David: I thought maybe this one was just a delusional wingnut until it quoted the Cato Institute. Then of course doesn’t bother to link to its assertion. In other words, weak troll-fu.
Church Lady
@deadrody:
but, but, but…. Don’tcha know that those brave blue dogs, not caring about their re-election prospects, and those self-sacrificing liberal reps, swallowing what they consider a shit sandwich served up by the Senate, are going to rally round the Prez and pass the Senate bill UNCHANGED! Oh happy, happy day! Then, the Senate Dems (having previously been unable to pass anything other than what they managed to with 60 votes) will take their powerful (now down to) 59 votes and make all of the wonderful changes that the House is demanding, because they are known for bowing down to the demands of the lower chamber. Afterwards, there will be happiness and universal coverage throughout the land and rainbow unicorns will fly out of everyone’s ass.
deadrody
Well, truth be told, I’m not interested in pointing out all the holes in the idiotic group think at this pathetic blog. John Cole is an absolute joke as a “thinker”. He is nothing more than a knee-jerk reactionary. Funny that someone mentions that half-wit Charles Johnson in this thread. Birds of a feather and all.
The both of them have about as much intellectual honesty and the core principles of a bag of sand.
Cassidy
Nope, but I’ve seen pictures.
Yutsano
Awww how cute they’re trying to reinforce each other now.
Mnemosyne
@Yutsano:
We’re getting ready to watch Conan’s last monologue, so I may have to stop playing with our new chew toy for a while.
Yutsano
@deadrody: Translation: my wingnut talking points ran out and it’s Friday so I won’t get any fresh ones from Rush until Monday. Sigh. I can haz betr trollz plz?
deadrody
@Yutsano: You want a link, moron ?
I didn’t provide a link because 1) you don’t care what it says, because 2) you aren’t going to read it anyhow.
But here you go: Kryptonite for liberal group-think
David
Hmm, I’m torn. Who to believe, random internet guy who’s wrong about everything trying to pass off Cato as a reputable source, or the CBO? Which source is likely to know more about the deficit?
Cassidy
Or how about this one?
deadrody
@Cassidy: The fact that you think that represents all Tea Party folks is sad enough, but the cognitive dissonance should be hurting your head. The Tea Party is all corporate run astro-turfing, and simultaneously run by moron-bigots. That’s quite a trick.
Cassidy
You, my friend, have gone far and beyond the teabagged. You are now promoted to ShroomStamped.
deadrody
@Church Lady: Yes, Church Lady, that sounds like a very plausible theory. And maybe later monkeys will fly out of my butt.
David
@deadrody: I didn’t realize anyone was that dumb. That’s literally the stupidest, most moronic thing I’ve ever read. They’re treating the premiums everyone will pay for health insurance as taxes, so it will cost a lot. I can’t stop laughing at them and don’t know which is more pathetic, them writing that nonsense, or you being gullible enough to believe it and and thinking anyone here would take it seriously.
Jason Bylinowski
@Yutsano:
Yes, it is funny. We seem to live in the same sort of world, because my rep is J Barrett Gresham and my senator is the craziest man in Washington, Jim DeMint.
You know, I am at a real loss here for what I can do. I post to my blog a bit, but nobody reads it but my close friends and the occasional stranger in the night, and calling my reps does no good – their positions are highly obstructive to my own positions. I haven’t had a single Democratic rep to speak to since Max Cleland got voted out in 2002, as I was myself leaving my home state. I feel as if I’ve been waging guerilla tactics against my entire society and though I occasionally have had some personal success in figuring out how to change people’s hearts and minds, I just feel helpless in this circumstance. Popular sentiment is almost fully against the senate bill (taken as a package), so I really don’t blame them if the liberal wing is skittish to fight for it – they really didn’t want it anyway, did they?
I think good message discipline would be the order of the day for the Democrats, but the question is, what is the right message? We
Ah … forget it. I know I’m just fretting, which is the biggest problem we have. So what are the major problems facing the majority right now? I have a little list:
1. A pretty spectacularly unpopular bill.
2. A year’s worth of hard work to make the unpopular bill happen.
3. A right-wing populist uprising; fake or not, doesn’t matter. It’s there, it’s getting constant coverage, and it is working, at least in the short term.
4. From the left, we have either complacence or wrong-headed disapproval (Hamsher et al are fucking imbeciles and should choke on a row of dicks, ASAP).
5. Negative consequences which would result from passing the bill.
6. Worse consequences which would result from dropping the whole thing and pretending it never happened. The people are not going to forget that year, just like they did not forget it in 1994.
It’s like a Choose Your Own Adventure novel, except somebody ripped out all the happy endings. I do not have a firm grasp on what is possible here, but I think that no matter what the Democrats do, they are going to have to go big or go home. Obama has a great opportunity to set the tone in the SOTU address; I’m more or less waiting to see what happens there before I concede to the voices in my head. But Obama also has to go big, with that speech. His oratory has really been stifled by the Seriously Presidential tone he always tries to take, and that just won’t cut it. he’s gonna have to show some real emotion, and to finally take that risk of showing some real (or at least exquisitely faked) PASSION, which the right will spin as his Angry Black Man syndrome. He’s going to have to show that accusation to be the hubris that it is, or else it is going to destroy his next whole year.
In short, he’s got to throw a Hail Mary pass and Congress has to catch it. I don’t even think the GOP in all their scheming devilish hearts could pull it off were they in this position, but then the GOP never DOES anything at all except cut taxes and relax regulation. Damn, but doing stuff in DC is hard. This week has been a real revelation to me.
+4
Yutsano
@deadrody: You want me to dismantle your link? Judd Gregg pulling a number out of his ass and a dishonest accounting of what individuals are paying into the system and pretending that’s what the program will cost THE GOVERNMENT. In fact I read it three times and STILL can’t figure out how he got to $6.25 trillion. You are being seriously misled by a blogger with a serious agenda.
Cassidy
Fix-ed.
Mnemosyne
@deadrody:
You must never have tried to return something to Wal-Mart.
Cassidy
Actually, you’re right D’rody. That one person is not representative of the whole movement. Of course, there are plenty more examples here. But I do apologize for not being more inclusive.
Yutsano
@Jason Bylinowski:
It IS hard. It does often mean doing things that are not popular but will still benefit the country. It means making chicken salad out of chicken shit. It means being the adults in the room and doing what you can with what you have. In other words things we’ve been lacking since January 20, 2001. Hell Bush as much as admitted governing was hard, so he gave up even trying. Cutting taxes and producing unfunded entitlements is not governing, it’s politicking. Governing means doing things that aren’t going to register as positives immediately. So uhh yeah it’s hard.
Jason Bylinowski
@Yutsano: Sure, but here’s the deal: if Obama is going to lead this charge, he has to have already made his peace with the fact that this could make him a one-termer. And then he’s also got to roll with the possibility that once he’s been voted out, the Republicans won’t just rollback the whole works if the worst scenario happens, and we lose the majority. (It’s a long shot but it could happen.)
And then you’ve got the House, some of whom live in pretty well gerrymandered districts and don’t have to really make any hard choices at all, but then you’ve also got the new people who were voted in who are living in purple districts, and those folks are just trying to stay true to whatever the popular sentiment is so that they don’t get rode out on a rail after only two (or maybe four for those elected in the first sweep of 2006) years in office.
I agree with you though, don’t take me as being combative or just contrarian. I’ve just been doing a lot of thinking about it, and it’s very easy to see why Congress has been scrambling for purchase in the last couple days.
Why does it have to be like this at all? Why can’t they, say, just table it for a month, let things die down, form a solid plan of attack, maybe pass some kickass little piece of legislation in the meantime (reinstate Glass-Steagall, for instance) to show that they’re not afraid to work hard, and then come back to it. I guess that’s not possible, but I don’t see why not.
David
Luckily HCR roll back isn’t too likely, which is why it’s being opposed so fiercely. A president could veto it, the Senate could filibuster it, the House could refuse to roll it back. Besides, it’ll end up being popular, like Social Security and Medicare, and those aren’t being rolled back ever.
HIram Taine
@Nick:
If a massive near-riot at an inauguration doesn’t do it, what will?
A full bore riot?
There is no doubt in my mind how the media would spin that..
Alex S.
Thank God President McCain will be on Face the Nation next sunday. In times of crisis we need his leadership.
Alex S.
@deadrody:
I see…. intellectual honesty means never admitting you were wrong.
Uriel
@The Republic of Stupidity:
Sorry to have to point this out, but the thing is this this critique only works so far as you actually pretend that the teapartiers were ever, in anyway, anything vaguely resembling a “grass-roots” movement.
Once you allow for the fact that they were were never anything more than an astro-turf pseudo movement designed to hook the average right wing mouth breather into shelling out all sorts of money and time specifically to agitate for the interests of Murdoch and Rodger Ailes, along with their associated media-personality-lampreys, then the only real complaint you can leverage against the original statement is that he used the word “more” instead of “brilliantly.”
I mean, hell, they even got MSNBC and CNN to
endlessly promoteobjectively report for hour after hour on the imaginary this “spontaneous phenomenon.” Heck, they even got Wolf Blitzer and Chuck Todd to lend it all manner of earnest, “just calling it like I see it” credence.And that, my dear
internetfriend,to use a rhetorical catch-phrase that ignores the fact that we haven’t actually interacted that much,is fucking genius, no matter how you slice it.Uriel
And now that I look at it, I should point out “were were” is goobledy-gook nonsense.
+5, in case you’re wondering.
Uriel
@Uriel: Oops, sorry I didn’t realize that Mnemosyne and obvious-troll-posing-as-a-concerned-something-or-another-depending-on-which-direction-the-argument-is-taking-at-the-moment have already been having this discussion.
John McLaughlin
@Jason Bylinowski:
Wrong! The answer is James Inhofe.
Next questioin: Has the Obama presidency failed, failed cataclysmicly, or failed on a level that makes the designer of the Hindenburg look prescient?
First up, Jack Jermond….
Ailuridae
@deadrody:
Its more revenue positive in the second ten years than the first so, yeah, you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
Its awesome that short of the anti-government hysteria deadrody is rolling out the same “criticisms” as the FDL bots who post in these threads.
Something Fabulous
@Uriel: Aha. That esplaines it. For you have been on FARH this evening, dude/person. And the Vendetta you rode in on.
TuiMel
Don’t give up!
Here’s some inspiration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6wRkzCW5qI&feature=player_embedded
David
I’ve run across quite a few odd commenters (FDL?) in the threads over at WashingtonMonthly. Their basic arguments are Senate bill should be killed b/c mandates and no public option or just because it’s worse than doing nothing. At the same time, they claim to support HCR (thru reconciliation only) and think if the Senate bill is killed, then real reform can happen. Never any links to anything, never responding to actual links, pretty similar to the trolls here.
And the one thing they will never acknowledge is that the mandates were going to be in the House/Senate compromise while the public option was always going to be out.
Bill E Pilgrim
Tea baggers?
Tea baggers are less than 1% of the population, and that’s being charitable.
So is this really how Congress works? I know that we’re encouraged to contact your member of Congress and they want to hear from you and the squeaky wheel gets the grease and so on, but– do they really operate this way? Knowing that the vast, vast majority votes a certain way (electing Obama by a huge margin for example) they’ll disregard all that and listen instead to whomever happens to call their office, which represents a tiny sampling of the populace and only the most vocal, active, and very likely most unhinged? I mean, as far as scientific samplings go, “whoever was angry enough to phone our office” has to be roughly the bottom of the list for any sort of measure of a majority.
Good God no wonder we can’t get anything done.
I keep hearing how terrified of the right these politicians are, including President Obama, when actually the biggest change that’s taking place over the last year (the extreme right hated him going in, still do, no change there) is that the Left is now slipping away in disgust and apathy.
I mean whether they should or not is an ongoing argument, especially here, but– they are. Trust me. So they let the base evaporate because they’re being more influenced by whatever noisy extreme right wing nut cases telephone or e-mail their Congressional office? This is how Democracy works?
Oy.
Ailuridae
@Church Lady:
Hey look its the dumbass who argued that one of the prime examples of suburban white flight ever wasn’t an example of white flight. I am sure you have a lot to add here.
via Nate here is a pretty interesting Kaiser poll indicating that a lot of people are uninformed or misinformed about the contents of the bill and once they were informed of the contents they radically changed their opinion of it.
http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/upload/8042-F.pdf
Money pages 5 and 7.
I hope this explains some of my terseness and exasperation with the tactics of FDL to sink a bill that actually polls very well when people are informed of its contents by lying about its contents. The individual mandate will always poll poorly but if the President and others can make the case for its necessity the rest of the bill’s contents poll very well.
Ailuridae
@David:
FDL is clearly sending posters out to other blogs including here. I’ve been in about three dozen threads over the last two months here about this issue; its never the same username, its always the same “ïnnocent questions”, they never engage the text of the bill, etc. Its like arguing with a libertarian (ironic as they are disingenuously making libertarian arguments)
David
@Ailuridae: They’ve definitely moved past innocent questions into “kill the bill” territory. I understand not thinking it’s the best bill ever, and I can understand wanting it improved. I can’t for the life of me comprehend HCR supporters claiming the bill is worse than doing nothing and pretending there is another option other than the Senate bill.
frankk
I am a white, middle-aged male with a job and health care, so I have no personal interest in this endless debate. I want people to have protection from both health insurance companies and bankruptcy because it is the morally correct thing to do, and I am a yellow dog Democrat who is sickened by the weakness of our elected representatives who are either cowards or crazy. The Democrats are afraid to do anything which might upset the Lieberthing, and the Republicans have the courage of their insanely greedy convictions.
My advice is: keep it simple. The Republicans have come out in favor of Medicare, in the context of accusing Democrats of attacking it. The cowardly Democrats should use that as the “bipartisan compromise” which provides the political cover to allow a Medicare buy-in for all. Expand the availability of Medicaid too, pay for it by taxing the rich, and do it all through reconciliation. I can dream, can’t I? The Republicans should have to pay for their obstruction, and this is how we make them pay.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@deadrody:
You don’t care so much that you are posting over and over again just to prove it! You is teh awsum!!
I bet you’re a legend in your own mind.
Please hang around, we need an idiot for our village. BTW, meet our guy-who-incessantly-mutters-to-himself, Brick Oven Bill. You two ought to get along real well.
Like two nuts in a shell.
Micheline
@Max:
As a Haitian-American, I have been impressed with his work in dealing with Haiti, but I don’t think he will have chance. Florida is a conservative state.
Robin G.
@Nick:
Is it legal to carry torches in DC? Because I can get on board with that.
kay
@Church Lady:
The opposition offered nothing. Nothing. I love, love, love this idea that any of the conservative opponents to health care reform, like you, would have offered some “common sense, simple plan”.
No, they wouldn’t have. I know that because they didn’t.
Not only didn’t they offer any alternative, they haven’t offered any alternative since 1994.
The track record on health care reform since 1994 from the “common sense conservative” faction has been 1. a massive unfunded expansion of Medicare that is politically popular because it asks nothing of the subscribers, and shunts costs to the next generation; and, 2. the privatization of 20% of Medicare, that again, asks nothing from subscribers and costs taxpayers 15% more than the public plan, while actually increasing payments to providers, so “bending the cost curve’ higher.
Two politically popular give-aways. Both bend the overall cost curve higher. Both kowtow to placate special interests, which is why there wasn’t any organized opposition to them.
That’s the sum total contribution from the “common sense conservatives” who are bitching incessantly about any attempt at reform.
You’re a net negative. You actually damaged the health care system.
kay
@deadrody:
It isn’t a liberal bill, deadrody. You’ve been lied to.
Look at it. Look at who drafted it.
It takes a variety of ideas that have worked on the state level, some liberal, some conservative, and packages them together. It’s “comprehensive”. That means each piece works with the next. You can’t have regulation banning refusal for pre-existing conditions (ice cream!) without (near) universality of coverage (yuckky broccoli!) , for example, because it won’t work.
You can’t cap insurance premiums without a mandate and subsidy. The mandate and the subsidy are the cap. You can’t take the parts you like, that are painless, and ignore the meat of the larger problem.
It won’t work.
You aren’t going to be able to make any measurable progress 1. keeping the health care you have or, 2. extending health care delivery to more people by picking and choosing painless and free quick fixes.
But go ahead and believe you can. The system we have is unsustainable. We’ll wait until the whole thing crashes and burns, like we always do, with every system, and then you nitwits can rise up and bellow in fear and outrage like you did when finance crashed and burned.
Cain
@DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal):
I called David Wu’s office and I told them I’ve not been calling them on anything because they generally represent me pretty good. But this HCR thing is too important not to weigh in. The staffer said lots of people are calling about HCR so I think they are getting calls.
cain
Jacob Davies
“the teabaggers have been far more organized than liberals and progressives”
You know what, this kind of thing makes me fucking crazy.
The teabaggers may be making a lot of phone calls. Fine. Whatever. They are not Democratic voters. They are not going to vote for Democrats no matter what they do, for god’s sake.
On the other hand the liberals & progressives who are (supposedly) not jamming the phone lines of Congress ARE Democratic voters, and they ARE going to vote for Democrats IF THEY DO GET SOMETHING DONE.
This is no way to run a railroad. If you ran a business and attended to customers in priority based on how often they called your tech support line instead of how much money they gave you you’d be out of business. Keep your eye on the ball – what matters is passing what the Democratic base and much of the country wants, not what a bunch of screaming lunatics are demanding.
Holy christ are we screwed if this is the way it’s going to work.