It was disappointing — but not surprising — that the New York State Senate rejected the gay marriage bill today. It was especially disappointing that there was almost no support for the bill among Upstate New York Senators.
I don’t understand the politics of the issue up here that well. Neither of my local State Senators (both Republicans) voted for it. Once is allegedly a closeted gay man, the other works hard at cultivating gay support (including sending out extremely gay-friendly mailers). So I doubt that either has some kind of “moral” opposition to gay marriage, whatever what would mean.
My guess is that the issue isn’t a big deal one way or the other upstate politically. There are probably plenty of one-foot-in-the-grave Catholics who are very opposed to it (there are almost no evangelicals and Mormons in New York State), but I doubt their votes are very much in play to begin with. It’s possible that some upstate Republicans would get teabagged if they voted for gay marriage, but, if anything, the vote would probably help some of them in a general election. In the exact district that I live in, State Senator Joe Robach would almost certainly be in a better shape in a general election if he voted for gay marriage.
What pisses me off most is that this is something that clearly would have been good for upstate New York economically. We need enterprising gay couples running bed-and-breakfasts and organic goat cheese farms and the like up here. We need gay tourists coming here to get married and spending their money while they’re in town. (I apologize if I’ve offended with any stereotypes here.) We need to be thought of as some kind of a cool hippie paradise people would want to visit, the way that Vermont and western Massachusetts are.
When they took down the confederate flag in South Carolina, one of the big factors was that they would lose convention business because of various boycotts. To me, even if you’re some kind of confederate-loving whackjob, that kind of decision just makes good business sense. Gay marriage in New York State makes the same kind of sense, even if you’re some kind of crotchety old Catholic. It makes me mad that my representatives don’t see it that way.
Update. You hear so much boo-hoo around here from people about how their kids have to leave because there are no jobs. (I don’t mean to belittle that, no one wants their kids to leave and there are a lot of great things about the area.) So which is more important, doing something that would help the economy and maybe make it so your kids could stay here or not having to see two dudes get married?
WereBear
I so agree. I’m majorly bummed.
Facebones
I couldn’t agree more about the “good for business” aspect. One of my jobs is working at an event/party company. We do a lot of weddings and bar mitzvahs, and I can only imagine the boost in business we’d get if we had gay marriage in this state.
However, people almost never think rationally about these things, especially when it comes to the culture wars.
Bud
All gay people in this country – and I’ll bet that most straight people as well – know that the arguments against gay marriage that proclaim no hatred of gays but rather devotion to the idea of traditional marriage is horseshit. I am sick and tired of people insisting that I pretend there is no anti-gay bigotry at work in these votes, when everyone, including the people who say such things, know it is false.
I honestly can’t understand why Americans feel it is perfectly OK to discriminate against law-abiding, tax-paying loyal citizens.
cleek
you don’t have to be married to run a B&B or a cheese farm.
right?
arguingwithsignposts
Um, not so much. It’s still right in front of the capitol.
DougJ
you don’t have to be married to run a B&B or a cheese farm.
Ha!
Being a place where gay people want to live would be good for the economy. Name one place known as a gay mecca that doesn’t do well economically.
MikeJ
Think of the kids!
on edit:
(this joke would have worked better had cleek left the word “goat” in.)
khead
Name one that is in upstate/rural NY. No one wants to go there – gay or straight.
NYC is not going to suffer for this.
DougJ
No one wants to go there – gay or straight.
Something like legalizing gay marriage could help, at least a little bit.
khead
You think so? Rural/upstate NY is a lot like WV. No one wants to go there either.
khead
Unless, of course, gays have discovered the joys of ATVing.
Sorry, should’ve added that earlier.
DougJ
You think so? Rural/upstate NY is a lot like WV. No one wants to go there either.
Unique progressive policies are worth a try for attracting people, IHMO.
rob!
Republicans have convinced every single one of their constituents that keeping gays from marrying is more important than having an economic plan, an environmental policy, etc.
My father-in-law is 90. He spent all his money, got into $35K worth of debt and his daughters bailed him out at age 85. He lives entirely off off Social Security, Medicare, and Food Stamps–all programs put into law by Democrats.
Yet he votes Republican every chance he gets, and even donates money to the RNC every two months or so. Why? Because the Democrats are a bunch of liberal, abortion-giving, gay-loving hippies.
khead
Unique progressive policies do not attract people to places like this.
Sorry, but they really do not.
You wanted an explanation, I’m giving it to you.
Jacob
Funny, I recently met a gay couple in Maine who run a bed and breakfast and an organic goat milk farm on the same property. They also grow organic arugula. I had no idea this was a new a gay stereotype. Sucks about the recent referendum here, but at least we won’t be losing them to New York :P
DougJ
Unique progressive policies do not attract people to places like this.
It hasn’t been tried, has it?
MikeJ
@khead: How about to places like this?
Notorious P.A.T.
I would sure love to know why we have to keep gay marriage illegal. Opponents of equal rights talk about how they are “defending” marriage but have never made clear what will happen to it. Other than the invisible sky-wizard getting mad and smiting us, what possible reason is there to vote against measures like this one?
The Republic of Stupidity
I grew up in Upstate – between Rochester & Syracuse, in the Finger Lakes. In the intervening 30 plus years, I’ve been back TWICE, and the last time was in 1984.
I used to call the area the American Outback, or Appalachia North, or best of all, ‘Deliverance Country’…
***sound of a banjo in the distance…***
Did I happen to mention how much I disliked it there?
Church Lady
“you don’t have to be married to run a B&B or a cheese farm.
right?”
Nor do you have to be gay.
Ailuridae
@khead:
Err, you might want to come to get a basic understanding of the economy of upstate NY. Try with a google of Saratoga Springs followed by a google of Lake George. I spent my childhood and teen years serving the over privileged and under accomplished from NYC, Rockland, Long Island and the like so apparently those twats like upstate NY just fine.
Skullduggery
@khead: “Unless, of course, gays have discovered the joys of ATVing.”
This gay loves ATVing in the country. Especially in the winter when you can put a plow in front of it.
Ailuridae
Also, Eureka Springs, AR just called and wants to know how khead is suck an expert on all things ‘Appalachian’. Oh, wait, he’s just being ignorant.
The Republic of Stupidity
I’ve always felt gays made a strategic mistake calling them ‘gay rights’. I understand the logic, and it makes a great sound bite, but I think it would have more clout if they called them ‘the same rights the rest of you all take for granted’.
For the life of me, I don’t understand why so many people think discriminating against gays is justifiable on ‘moral’ or ‘ethical’ grounds… I don’t get it.
14th Amendment blah blah blah…
gbear
@Notorious P.A.T.:
Other than the invisible sky-wizard getting mad and smiting us, what possible reason is there to vote against measures like this one?
The reason is that, while it may be courageous to vote for measures like that one, there are no negative political repercussions for voting against it. From what I read, once the senators realized that they wouldn’t have the votes to pass it, they abandoned it in droves.
gbear
block quote fail
Church Lady
Doug, did you know that two policemen were shot in Rochester late last night, while investigating a home invasion?
maus
You’re talking about a group of ferverent assholes that have divorces under their belt but think “teh gay” will force marriage to dissolve.
Not arguing against Catholics per se, but these kind of Dem politicians and R voters.
maus
That’s why it’s also referred to as “equal rights” and “equality”.
Ailuridae
@The Republic of Stupidity:
Where I am from in upstate NY, we consider where you are from in NY ‘Western NY’ and it starts with roughly Syracuse. Micro-regionalism, ftw.
I’m amazed at how much more progressive Saratoga Springs is than when I attended HS in the late 80s/early 90s there. That being said its still incredibly backwards and I don’t make it back except for familial obligations.
DougJ
Doug, did you know that two policemen were shot in Rochester late last night, while investigating a home invasion?
Yes, not that far from where I live. They’re both ok and the suspect has been apprehended.
The Republic of Stupidity
@maus:
Aware of that. I’ve simply heard TOO MANY rightwing/conservatives rail against the idea of ‘gay rights’ as something separate and different than ‘the same rights the rest of you all take for granted’.
It helps to take the framing of the issue out of their hands, like w/ ‘pro-life’ vs ‘pro-abortion’… another highly successful piece of political chicanery, if you ask me.
Justin)Anderson
Two words- Doug Hoffman.
I think most GOPers in NYS are worried that they could be the next sacrificial lamb. Not only does it explain why Joe voted against it, but also the folks on Long Island and the NYC ‘burbs.
The Republic of Stupidity
@:Ailuridae
Yeaaaaaaah… ‘n we allus called everything east of Syracuse ‘Downstate’…
***suspicious squint in eyes…***
I have to say, I always did like Ithaca… very cool little town…
khead
@ Ailuridae
Doug didn’t disagree with my assessment of rural NY, he simply implied that the area may benefit economically from the passage of the gay marriage laws. I submit that the areas he referred to don’t really give a shit. It’s not in their interests to do so.
If anyone wants to show me the economic growth that would be provided from gay folks visiting upstate NY (and WV) – I am all ears.
Otherwise, it’s simply worth noting that the areas Doug (and I) referred to probably aren’t really the kind of places one might expect to find economic support for gay rights. Their economic support comes from other sources – most of those sources being hostile to gay rights.
Feel free to keep calling me ignorant though. Being from WV I’ve heard a lot worse. You can also feel free to fuck off.
DougJ
Their economic support comes from other sources – most of those sources being hostile to gay rights.
There are certainly parts of upstate NY where what you say isn’t true. And the Saratoga Springs area is certainly one example. Anywhere in upstate NY where tourism is important, I would submit that there could be economic benefit from legalizing gay marriage.
Ailuridae
@The Republic of Stupidity:
I don’t remember how the language evolved regarding civil rights for homosexuals but I remember early in college that a conservative talking point was that basic civil rights for queer folk qualified as “special rights” but since there was no reasoning I couldn’t follow it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the term “gay rights” was coined on the right as “gay” is still an effective pejorative in most of the country.
Ailuridae
@khead:
Eureka Springs, AR is still wondering wtf you are talking about. Use the google its your friend.
khead
How many parts? One city?
I am sure you got my point to begin with, don’t split hairs now.
Ailuridae
@khead:
What was your point? Apparently it was that nobody wanted to spend time as a tourist in upstate NY while ignoring the fact that there is a huge swath of upstate NY thats currently entirely dependent on tourism for its economy. Your assertion and the reality of the situation cannot coexist.
Anne Laurie
@gbear:
Bingo.
There are certain social prejudices against which only the much-dreaded activist judges can make any progress. The violent antagonism of a small subset of voters, combined with the vast inertia of the much larger Mushy Middle, would never have “permitted” racial integration, or Roe v. Wade, or equal marriage rights for same-sex couples in Massachusetts. Even the Magical Unity Pony has said he’s not personally in favor of anything beyond the half-hearted ‘civil unions’ compromise, whether because of his religious beliefs, or because the thought squicks him out, or just because it’s not politically viable for a Halfrican ex-community-organizer with a funny name.
The good news is, once such progress has been mandated by judicial fiat, the ‘Segregation Foah-evah! ! !’ support of the Mushy Middle drains away comparatively quickly. You’ll never get the 27-Percenters to shut up, but it’s been just over five years since our Commonwealth became the first ‘Gay Marriage’ state by judicial fiat, and every time the pollsters ask there is less support for taking gay citizens’ rights away. I think we need to spend more time on finding, nominating, and electing gay-marriage-friendly judges at the states level, which of course is gonna be quite the job.
MikeJ
Ideally the economic incentives for legalizing gay marriage would soon disappear as other places joined in. Still, there would be a window of time before it happened.
khead
Ailuridae
@khead:
See Eureka Springs, AR. And your initial point was:
You think so? Rural/upstate NY is a lot like WV. No one wants to go there either.
which, well, you know isn’t fucking true. Again, a huge portion of upstate NY is dependent on tourism so “no one wants to go there” doesn’t make any fucking sense.
MikeJ
Are there places in each state that depend on tourism? Yes.
Would gay travelers be more likely to visit tourist destinations that are perceived as being gay friendly? Yes.
Would legalizing gay marriage make people think of those areas as being more gay friendly? Yes.
Why is this difficult to understand?
Nate Dawg
As a gay man who has lived in upstate two summers in a row, I have to say that those disparaging it as an awful place are overlooking what it has to offer. Sure the farming lowlands are a bore, and probably not going to get any economic boost out of this, but the Catskills, Hudson River Valley area, and the Adirondacks are some of the most amazing “wild” areas on the east coast.
Plenty of quaint little towns (even some progressive ones! Woodstock, anyone?) that would see more gay clientele if marriage was available.
Dont’ suppose gay people need a reason to go to Fire Island, but that would probably get a boost too.
The Republic of Stupidity
@khead:
Well… since you asked… here’s something about gay income levels, for starters…
And here’s something about the potential economic benefits…
Mike in NC
Tell that to the wingnuts. Still losing lots of business, but they blame it on the darkies down there. SC is and will forever be a basket case and a national disgrace. But the Confederate flag flies free and proud! DeMint/Bachmann ’12!
Church Lady
@DougJ: That’s so good to know. Enough bad stuff has happened in the past week.
Ailuridae
can someone run an IP check and make sure khead isn’t actually makewi? I have argued with someone this stubborn who was also spectacularly ignorant since … the last time makewi was in a thread.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Ailuridae:
I tried googling ‘gay rights’ to see if I could find anything on the origins of the phrase but nada… I recall it as coming from the gay community back in the 70’s-80’s ish time… what I did find on line says most of the gay rights/equality movement comes out of the NYC Stonewall Riots in 1969…
I don’t recall it as being a creation of the righties… I think they picked up on it after the fact… kind of like… ‘why do gays need THEIR own rights?’
morzer
I am bit disappointed that y’all are forgetting scriptural support for cheese-making married couples. Blessed are the cheese-makers! It’s in the Sermon on the Mount.. well, one version of it, anyway!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiDmMBIyfsU
Church Lady
@Ailuridae: I wish you’d stop using Eureka Springs as some type of fabulous gay mecca. Yes, Eureka Springs is a very “artsy” community and yes, there are gays living there, openly. But, the caveat is that this is the ONLY place in that part of Arkansas (hell, the entire state, probably) where gays are welcome. And while there may be gays in Eureka Springs, I can guarantee that they are ALL white. You seem to forget that there are basically no minorities in that part of the state. You also might want to look at how close Eureka Springs is to Harrison. For those that don’t know, Harrison, Arkansas’ claim to fame is that it is the home of the KKK.
Before you tell me I have no idea what I’m talking about, you should know that we have a farm in Rhea Valley and a home on the river in Cotter. Close enough for you?
gbear
I think the term ‘gay rights’ popped up as a copycat to the term ‘women’s rights’ in the late 60’s. We were all so very optomistic back then.
MikeJ
OT, but annoying enough to share:
Salvation Army and other charities require proof of Immigration status before needy kids can have toys
Kyle
So which is more important, doing something that would help the economy and maybe make it so your kids could stay here or not having to see two dudes get married?
The Hate trumps everything. Hate is a hungry beast. Look at the huge number of people across this country who repeatedly and eagerly vote for the party that feeds their bigotry while conning them and ripping them off blind.
khead
If you just changed the marriage laws, I am sure the tourism business from gays would increase.
khead
Damn. No edit for me. Windows Vista.
parksideq
@Nate Dawg: THIS
I grew up in Ulster County (not too far from Woodstock), which is pretty much the nexus of where the Hudson, Catskills and Adirondacks meet up. Boring place for high school, but a great place to tour/vacation. I honestly appreciate it more now that I don’t live there anymore.
I went back for Thanksgiving (my mom is still there), and let me tell you: the Hudson Valley area could definitely use the money that gay marriage would have brought. I mean, places like Minnewaska State Park are perfect venues for outdoor weddings (once winter passes, anyway). Not to mention all the other industries built around weddings.
For the time being, it looks like NY gays are still going to drive to CT and MA and boost their wedding industries instead of ours. Kudos, Albany!
EDIT: Edit function is go on Safari 4.0.3, on Snow Leopard.
General Winfield Stuck
Ailuridae
@Church Lady:
You’re impossibly fucking dim. Do gay people go to Eureka Springs to visit and thereby pump up the local economy? Yes, they fucking do. In droves.
Could that be replicated somewhere else in a comparably beautiful pocket of upstate NY? Yes it could. Does it make a damned bit of difference if the community one over is full of fucking rednecks? No, it fucking doesn’t.
Now, shut your god damned pie hole because you are an idiot.
I love the fact that posters here think living by an area makes them an expert on something when the facts totally contradict what they are talking about. But to use your method of argument – I own property on Beaver Lake so we must both be right even though our opinions directly contradict each other. Aren’t you the ignoramus that was trying to explain why text book examples of white flight weren’t white flight a while ago?
The Republic of Stupidity
Hmmm… a bell is ringing somewhere in the back of my mind…
I think you might be right about that…
The Republic of Stupidity
I would be of the opinion that gays spend money on other things than just weddings… just sayin’…
The Republic of Stupidity
Merry Fucking Christmas… ho ho ho…
cleek
pretty much all my high school jobs were in the tourism trade. Lake George and Saratoga aren’t full of locals in the summer; it’s all NYC’ers and Quebecois.
Ailuridae
@cleek:
Apparently you misunderstood this poster. Nobody wants to go to upstate NY. So there.
Church Lady
@Ailuridae:
Eureka Springs isn’t exactly a thriving metropolis. Nor is it going to be the site of a major gay pride parade anytime soon. It is a very small town in the Ozarks, with a very limited number of rooms available for tourists, and there are some openly gay people living there. Yes, for a day trip or a quick overnight, Eureka Springs is extremely charming. That charm is a fluke in that part of Arkansas, make Eureka Springs somewhat unique to the state, and won’t easily be replicated anywhere nearby (see Hardy and Mountain View). Nor will the live and let live attitude that is pervasive in Eureka Springs. That section of Arkasas is only a step or two short of “squeal like a pig”.
Two more points for you: 1. Gay marriage will become legal in Arkansas sometime after hell freezes over. 2. You’re an asshole.
Ian
@DougJ:
In honest my opinion?
khead
No doubt – and I understand that.
But Doug asked this:
Implied in that statement is that changing the laws would absolutely provide an additional economic benefit that the polticians in his area should consider a no-brainer. Except, it’s “Field of Dreams” economics – if you do this, they will come. Well, maybe they will and maybe they won’t.
Since it’s already been established by people far brighter than people are already flocking to upstate NY, I wonder how gay marriage would make all that much of a difference. So I suspect that – from an economic standpoint – the local pols are going to need to be assured that the economic benefits are guaranteed to flow from a politically difficult decision.
So far though, instead of assurances, all I’ve gotten from folks so far are insults from some dumbass who already admitted that the area is still pretty “backwards” like I already implied and a link to how much money gays make. None of that guarantees economic growth for upstate NY where these pols are though, so there’s is no political cover for those pols. It’s possible that in some “backwards” places, the rednecks in the town next door – and other tourists – are worth more to the local economy than gay tourists. Therefore, it’s a tough decision.
To paraphrase a previous poster:
Is that so hard for y’all to understand?
fourmorewars
I’m sure you’ve all heard. It’s Morning in America once again.
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/zombie_reagan_raised_from_grave
Ailuridae
@khead:
FFS, you’re particular stupid. And intellectually dishonest.
Read more here on the economic impacts of gay marriage.
http://www.law.ucla.edu/Williamsinstitute/pdf/VT%20econ%20impact%20final.pdf
Some people argue armed with facts and knowledge and some just claim shit for no reason. Get back to me when you can admit this statement
Name one that is in upstate/rural NY. No one wants to go there – gay or straight.
NYC is not going to suffer for this.
which was your first statement in this thread was made up out of whole cloth. It has since been demolished and you lack the integrity to admit you were just making shit up initially. Why should anyone deal with you when you are dishonest, ignorant and devoid of a shred of intellectual integrity?
The reason the upstate NY legislators should have voted yea on this is one of competition. Most of the activities that a tourist would do in upstate NY are also available in other places that are more hospitable to gays and a comparable driving distance from the major metropolitan areas in the district. In area of direct competition between, say, Gore and Killington, Gore’s bottom line is affected adversely.
Ailuridae
@Church Lady:
Two more points for you: 1. Gay marriage will become legal in Arkansas sometime after hell freezes over. 2. You’re an asshole.
Nobody is arguing the point 1 the point which I argued is that Eureka Springs being GLBT friendly helps its bottom line. This isn’t really debatable outside of the wingnut universe so I don’t have anything further to say. And I’d much rather be an asshole than a fucking ignoramus who pollutes every thread with drivel. Your signal to noise ratio is just fucking horrible.
JGabriel
DougJ
That sounds kinda dirty.
.
Cerberus
@Church Lady:
So what you are saying is that I can count on a good strong snow storm in Hell within 50 years? Awesome. Need to get my snowmobile rental shop set up then.
Also, regarding a Pride Parade in Eureka Springs: That ship has already sailed, mon cherie.
We is everywhere. And also.
Cerberus
Also, there’s been a bunch of cities in the South especially near universities who have been passing gay rights ordinances such as inclusive non-discrimination laws. Why?
The stated reasons are economic. To attract the best possible educated workforce for jobs you need to have an open environment that workers can feel safe in. If you have a reputation for bigotry or for not having protections, then these people who would provide an educated workforce or staff a university program may choose less prestigious schools or firms in more accepting environments.
The biggest boon will not even be things like the wedding services or creation of gay friendly businesses or the benefits of gay marriage charted already in the comments by the economic study into the effect of gay marriage equality on the economy of the state. But in making it easier for schools like Syracuse to attract better teachers and encouraging graduates to stay and found new businesses that can then support the local communities and economies they form in.
toujoursdan
@Church Lady in #20:
This comment is both stupid and insulting.
You “have” to be gay as much as you “have” to me male, female or part of whatever ethnic/racial group you are part of. Those who say otherwise are either ignorant or live in a fantasy world. Being gay is part of who you are, and as far as this gay man is concerned (who knows all about the so-called “ex-gay” ministries and the many many now ex-ex gay people who were sold that lie and then emotionally damaged by those groups) this is part of the fundoChristian attempt to de-legitimize sexual minorities to make us damaged goods or less than human. Those who think it’s “just a behaviour” do exactly the same thing.
cmorenc
The whole gay marriage brouhaha does NOT fundamentally turn on rational self-interest factors to begin with on either side, but almost entirely emotional ones. NOTE: observing that the underlying motivation for the pro-gay marriage movement is based mostly on emotional factors is NOT in any way a denial that these are understandable, sensible emotions worthy of respect and support, nor does it deny that there are many worthy practical considerations involved (health-care decisions for gravely ill partner for just one example). Nonetheless, it IS an dead-on accurate assessment that the underlying motivation is driven mostly by human passion, and not the sort of cold rational calculation of say, a tax measure. Opposition is likewise driven entirely by passionate emotion that could care less that catering to gays could help the local economy, if giving in would deliver society to hell in a handbasket according to their view of the matter?
WereBear
For that matter, Albany itself is a tiny town with little to offer except being the state capital. And one of the more entrenched dysfunctions in how it operates. Yet no one wants to not be re- elected so they can go there.
I live in the Park. The isolation is lovely, and one of the reasons people visit, but it also makes for a layer of insulation which astonishes me. I say the dollar is falling, they say, No worries, the Canadians come more often, then.
I’d love to see more varieties of people coming here. That’s an economic imperative for certain.
KBS
Did you call & ask them why they voted against it? I think the only way this will ever change is if they realize they are angering voters with their stance.
Svensker
@khead:
It’s so sad. Upstate NY is gorgeous, especially around the Fingerlakes. But most of it’s abandoned – all that lush farmland, beautiful old Victorian and earlier homes, charming old cities with once thriving industries. It’s a crime, really. There are a couple of places that are doing well — Cooperstown and Skaneateles are two that we go to often (avoiding high baseball times in C-town) — but a lot of those once vibrant beautiful old towns are dilapidated relics now.
Morbo
I think it’s all the PCBs in the Albany water…
DougJ
Did you call & ask them why they voted against it?
I might. But I already know their stated reasons.
ChrisS
@Svensker:
Farming in the midwest is cheaper, with a higher EROI, and more efficient than farming in CNY because its climate, rocky glacial soils, and hills. Of course upstate NY has no real water shortfalls thanks to lake effect snow in the winter, so that’s a plus. Chad Orzel had a post a few years ago about how once the canals opened up the mid-west through the Great Lakes, big farms in upstate NY shut down and converted to colleges.
So no real agricultural industry, sure you can scrape by, but no one is making money to speak of. That leaves manufacturing. Well, manufacturing has been hightailing out of the US and the Rust Belt for the last two decades. That leaves … well, tourism and education as economic forces.
Hmm. maybe a gay-friendly policy might bring in a few more dollars, afterall.
bago
I say that if you’re going to be so regressive to begin with, of course your kids will want to leave. Perhaps they’ll go to a city, see a show, meet a few gays and not be as stupid as their parents.
The market has spoken!!
bago
@Church Lady:
Well then, fuck it.
Jennifer (foprmerly Molly)
@toujoursdan:
To be fair, I think ChurchLady meant that organic dairy farmers or B&B operators aren’t all gay, that it’s a stereotype. That was my reading of it, at least.
And I don’t think anyone here would disagree with you that being gay is not a lifestyle choice. It’s intrinsic, it’s hard-wired. Anyone who thinks people would choose to go through the crap that so many GBLT people are going through right now, in the fight to simply be themselves on equal terms with everyone else, is an idiot, pure and simple. I’ve no use for them.
New Yorker
I love how Upstate NY is seen as some sort of “Deliverance” land where you’d best not be caught after sundown….
Are there isolated towns full of toothless hicks in upstate NY? Sure. Can you name me one state that doesn’t have this demographic group? I bet even Connecticut does…
Also, I think the physicist working on the particle accelerator under the football field at Cornell might disagree with this sentiment….or the electrical engineer working for Lockheed-Martin in Syracuse…..or the computer scientist working for Xerox in Rochester…..or the investment banker working for M&T in Buffalo. Have those areas (Buffalo in particular) been hit hard by a loss of manufacturing? Absolutely? Does that mean they’re all done for? Not necessarily. Pittsburgh was in worse shape and has turned itself around (and it’s not like it has a Mediterranean climate to attract people). Upstate NY has pretty much completely avoided the housing meltdown, which is a good thing.
And if you’ve never taken a weekend or week-long vacation to the Catskills, Adirondacks, Finger Lakes, or Niagara Falls, well, that sucks for you.
Church Lady
@toujoursdan:
I’m sorry if you didn’t understand that that was a joking reply to a comment, made in response to the comment that was quoted, which in turn was a joking response to one thing that Doug said in this post. As the mother of a gay child, I know that you “have” to be gay, as much as you “have” to be male or female. You may have enlightened someone else, but I am already aware. No insult was intended.
@Ailuridae: Once again, you miss my point. Doug said he though making gay marriage legal in NY state would increase tourism in the upper state region. Someone disagreed. You had a shit fit, pointed out all the reasons you thought they were wrong, and kept using Eureka Springs as an example, repeatedly. My only point in commenting at all is that Eureka Springs is an anomaly in a state that isn’t particularly “gay friendly” and in an area (rural, to say the least) that is probably even less “gay friendly” than some other parts of the state, and will allow gay marriage sometime around never. The live and let live attitude so prevalent in Eureka Springs has not spread through the region, now has it? One small town does not a regional economy make, to boil my point down to its essence. And you are still an asshole.
Phoebe
1. I used to go to school in upstate NY, and it was extremely beautiful, like Vermont. If we are going to be stereotyping, and of course we are, then remember that yes, gay men tend to like cities, and be the Eva Gabor from Green Acres, but lesbians are often represented by Eddie Arnold in this division. They like the nature. And there will be a handful of gay dudes who do too, so to be one of the few rural and beautiful [gay men do love teh beauty, right?] places that don’t spit on gay people, that could be economically helpful for sure. Also for vacations for the gay city mice.
2. This, from Sullivan today, is great, though it starts out boring. Sit through the brief boringness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCFFxidhcy0&feature=player_embedded
geg6
Whomever is claiming that no one goes to Upstate NY or West Virginia, especially for recreational purposes knows nothing, IMHO. Both areas are extremely popular vacation/weekend spots, especially if you love the outdoors and outdoor activities. Skiing, hiking, fishing, white water rafting (in WVA, anyway)…they’ve got it all. Mountains, lakes, rivers. People from my part of the world go to both all the time and love it. And I don’t know any people with more disposable income than my gay friends.
gex
I find it utterly ironic that a large portion of the funding to campaign against gay rights comes from the Catholic church.
That the church can take federal dollars for their Catholic Charities (in DC they admitted 75% is public funds) and still threaten to withhold their social services if DC passes any gay rights laws is ridiculous. We should not pay them and have to give them special legislation that allows them to discriminate with federal funds where others can’t.
That the church has tacitly supported the Uganda bill calling for the death penalty for gays (in an environment where the current law calls for life in prison) is abhorrent and should really be generating a lot more outrage than it is.
But the fact that the Catholic church, with its”
– child rape
– protecting child rapists
– circulating child rapists to a wide variety of congregations
– siding with child rapists over children
– purchasing insurance to cover settlements while at the same failing to report the issues to authorities
– having 2/3 of it’s bishops involved in the cover up
has the unmitigated gall to run blitz campaigns that essentially say that the GAYS will target your children is appalling. And that Americans keep fucking falling for it is depressing beyond belief.
Americans will use their taxes to subsidize the INSTITUTIONAL RAPE of their children. And they say there’s something wrong with us and that we are a danger to the morals of this country. Ha!
You have no idea how painful it is for me to come from a Catholic family.
geg6
@gex:
Oh, yes I do. Believe me. They hate women as much as they hate gays. They just know that women are too large a demographic to treat the same way today. But they’d have no problem treating women who take birth control or have an abortion the same way they do gays if they thought they’d get away with it.
gex
@Notorious P.A.T.:
Because no one calls them on that. We must respect religion, dontcha know. So if child rapists can convince religious people that the invisible sky daddy says this, then that’s that.
It is really disappointing to read the gay themed threads on this blog. Most are gay allies and have no problem with SSM. Too many allies are willing to fall for “protect marriage” meme, and we end up with shit like DOMA. Or we get Michigan where we protect marriage (but not because we don’t want gays to have rights!) and then they sue to take away partner benefits. These items, plus what happened in Uganda, makes clear their lie. But yet, try getting any one of these allies to become stronger supporters of SSM.
We are constantly chided on this blog to try to convince our enemies. The people who literally do not want us to even exist. Yet we can’t even convince our allies. I had to leave the threads for a while, and I think after reading today’s I’m going to have to leave again.
It’s just that, if all the people who are okay with SSM would actually advocate for it more strongly, it wouldn’t actually cost politicians as much political capital to move the other direction on this. What they see is a lot of religious people who feel strongly about preventing it, and a small non-growing minority of people who feel strongly about having it, and a bunch of people who don’t really care either way. That Venn diagram can change one of two ways: 1) the mushy middle can pick a side or 2) the mushy middle can die off with the haters and get out of the way.
I am angrier at the middle than I am at the haters. And I really can’t take much more of this. It fucking sucks to sit here and be debated by Americans like we’re a fucking Al Qaeda-like problem. Meanwhile, taxpayers give Catholic Charities 75% percent of their funding apparently. (That was according to a quote from someone with Catholic Charities).
So far, I’ve only seen Cole and one other person wake up to the civil unions, protect the word bullshit on this site. So whatever. I just hate the fact that by the time the haters are dead, I’ll be knocking on that door myself. A wasted fucking miserable life.
gex
@khead: Wow. Dod you channel Sarah Palin? You know those gays don’t like things that “real Americans” like, right?
We are fully human. Try to keep that in mind.
gex
@The Republic of Stupidity: If you think that we made that choice, and not our enemies in an effort to make it look like we are asking for special rights, well then go right ahead. The perfect target for Luntz.
Phoebe
@gex: Yes.
You really should see this, though. Maybe it will cheer you up a little.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCFFxidhcy0&feature=player_embedded
toujoursdan
My apologies if I missed the context. Sometimes the defences are too high.
CalD
Did anyone happen to catch this item?
Log Cabin Republicans Blame Democrats
The mind reels.
CalD
@CalD: That line in bold text was a link, BTW.
Church Lady
Apology accepted.
Makewi
I never found Rochester to be particularly hostile to gay people. I grew up there and had a number of openly gay friends and colleagues. Am I wrong about that Doug? I admit it’s been a while since I’ve been back.
@Ailuridae:
I stick to one name. It isn’t me.
khead
@ gex
So what you are saying, then, is that you and your fully human friends already give your tourism dollars to WV and NY. You’ve gone to those places multiple times because you love the skiing, hiking, fishing, ww rafting, mountains, lakes and rivers and want to take advantage of these things – even though these states do not already have gay marriage laws. So, why would either state need to pass a gay marriage law to get you to keep going? I mean, you are going back, right? I didn’t see you say anything about a boycott.
Is passing a gay marriage law going to make the view better @ Pipestem? Hawk’s Nest? Or the New River Gorge? The skiing better @ Canaan, Winterplace or Snowshoe? You can still enjoy everything you listed. You just can’t get married on the edge of the gorge during your weekend in WV. Looks to me like you’re already ok with that given the numerous visits.
Of course, maybe you and your friends are the only ones willing to set aside principle long enough to enjoy the many spectacular outdoor offerings of WV and NY. Others here certainly think a change is needed – or next year you will be heading to Killington. Either way, I thank you for the rather enlightening post and I am sure WV/NY thanks you for your dollars.
DougJ
I never found Rochester to be particularly hostile to gay people. I grew up there and had a number of openly gay friends and colleagues. Am I wrong about that Doug? I admit it’s been a while since I’ve been back.
No, you’re exactly right. Which is part of why I think the general area would benefit from legalizing gay marriage.
Antiquated Tory
May I play a bit of devil’s advocate?
1. What the heck kind of economy is based on b&b’s and gay marriage? If you answer “Vermont’s”, well, I have friends from Vermont, and from what they say, it’s not exactly an economy to emulate. My wife is from a rural area that also survives on B&Bs, organic farming and rare breeds. It’s still poor and there are still practically no jobs. I mean, yes, you can keep from disappearing utterly if you have enough tourism, but it’s hardly to be compared with an economy that actually makes things, or the economy of a core area.
2. Some people are opposed to gay marriage because of religious conviction. You may say that “well, that’s just an excuse but they really JUST HATE GAYS.” Maybe, and I don’t like to argue from anecdote, but the people I know who think this way don’t seem to hate gays in any personal way. They just believe in the sanctity of marriage (generally as championed by the word of God through his anointed mouthpiece, the Pope). You can’t just say “that’s wrong and irrational” and hope that, poof! (pun intended) they’ll turn into humanist atheists, or at least anticlerical religious people who keep God at a safely unfalsifiable distance. It’s their worldview, it’s a core part of their identity, better figure out how to work around it.
Would that the US could have proper “civil unions” with exactly the same rights as marriage, as in the UK. Gay marriage there is still illegal, which may annoy gay people and those who believe in full equality but at least does not cause the kind of practical tragedy you get in the US. And religious people can pat themselves on the back that marriage still works like in the Bible and happily ignore gay couples who are for all intents and purposes married. (And some churches, such as the Methodists, do perform gay marriage, although the state does not recognize them. But the state does of course recognize a civil union that they can have along with their Methodist marriage.) Unfortunately the federal system in the US would make this incredibly difficult if not impossible, and I’m not sure American culture can handle such a level of polite fiction.
Nathanael
Ithaca.
Boy, that was easy!
Nathanael
We’re exporting our weddings!
NY recognizes same-sex marriages when the wedding is in Vermont, or Massachusetts, or Canada, or Connecticut, or (soon) New Hampshire. Even if both spouses are NYS residents.
The wedding industry is big bucks. Well, except that we’re exporting all the same-sex weddings to our neighboring states and provinces.
Really, allowing same-sex weddings gives NY tourism the extra wedding revenue, and has practically no other effects, given that NYS *already* recognizes same-sex marriages.
gex
@Antiquated Tory: America discovered the polite fiction such as separate but equal is anything but. There is a point to the separate. In this case, the point is to make the secular government enshrine religious belief into our rule of law. I suppose as a practical manner your civil union idea would be “equality”. But I should think that specifically encoding the otherness of a group of people in a system that declares all people equal can’t be a good thing.
Brian
Most of these comments are far too into splitting hairs, using a specific anecdote to prove a bigger point, which never works. It is unquestionably true that gay people are more likely to go to gay friendly places, and that gay marriage laws are a good barometer of gay-friendliness. So vacation spending will definitely improve, by some amount. It’s also self-evidently true that more money will be spent on gay marriages when gay marriages are legal rather than illegal, so there’s a second economic benefit. While vacations and marriages are one-off events, the much bigger economic impact is of course when gays move permanently to a new place. While this isn’t true of all gays, gay marriage laws are a key determinant in relocating to a new place. This has nothing to do with boycotting gay-unfriendly places, but just trying to survive as a gay family. It’s a nightmare for gay families who don’t have the protection marriage affords. So these comments going back and forth about the relative vacation merits of upstate new york are relevant only for the vacation element of the economic uptick. It’s way offbase for the relocating element, which is much more important. One commenter ignorantly decided Vermont was desperately poor because he talked to some poor person there. A minute’s research would show it’s wealthier than most places, and it’s also attracted a big influx of gay families because of its gay marriage laws. Massachusetts has done the same. Gay families are living in lots of boring, average American towns, not just Miami Beach and Fire Island. And when considering the average American town in upstate New York vs Vermont, just across the border, they will go to Vermont.
Antiquated Tory
@gex: “Separate but equal” refers, I believe entirely, to the segregated school system. Since the allocation of resources was anything but equal, it was not a polite fiction, just a fiction.
There is no question about the allocation of resources in marriage, just legal rights.
Also, the “otherness” of gay people is in the law now: they cannot marry as freely as heterosexuals. There used to be a lot more otherness under the law than that. Whereas an institution of civil union recognized across all states, open to heterosexuals, homosexuals, and nonsexuals (eg. unmarried siblings who have taken care of a chronically ill parent) would be an area in which gay people were specifically the same as everyone else.
And again, the current legal status in marriage (US) is a kludge, a hack, a “trick”, mixing a religious institution with purely civil, legal functions, as mentioned in other comments. I don’t think you can get the state out of marriage, but it would be nice to have a civil institution that’s completely separate from the religious one, no?
Lastly, for practical reasons, you can either fight a not-insignificant group of people or bypass them. Anecdote is not data and all that, but I know a number of people who are opposed to gay marriage for religious reasons but have no problem with civil unions at all. I don’t think it’s just them secretly hating gays. I suspect there’s enough people like this to keep gay marriage from happening in all 50 states for several generations, or until the Pope approves it, whichever happens first.
Then again, a lawyer once explained to me why civil unions are a practical impossibility under the American federal system. Sadly I don’t remember his explanation. But it means I’ve probably just wasted my time and yours with this. :(