And I now have my desktop running Vista at half the functionality it was working at before the “upgrade.” I have no video card drivers and am looking at everything in 800×600 on a 24″ lcd, no virus protection, and for some reason or another, my secondary monitor is now recognized as my main monitor. Why?
Why the fuck not? This is Microsoft!
I have a local Italian deli that delivers that is a lot like a Microsoft product. Sure, you can order whatever you want, but you never know what you are going to get. I’ve had an order of wings and blue cheese come as chicken tenders with ranch and a large fry, an order of lasagne and a salad show up as stuffed shells and cheese sticks, and so on. If you point out they have made a mistake, they get huffy and then take two hours to get you the right order. By then you are full on the cold cereal you ate while waiting the three hours for your food to show up.
At any rate, the new plan is to just put everything on my external hd, take this upgrade back to the Best Buy people and throw it at them, and then do a full install of Seven tomorrow.
If any of you rocket scientists at Microsoft want to try and fix this disaster you have created, feel free to email.
General Winfield Stuck
would you like a chocolate?
Existenz
I’m not even gonna discuss this. I’m a Mac user so anything I say will come across as “Macz are the rulz” or something along those lines.
That said, I upgraded to Snow Leopard recently and it stopped recognizing my printers. Installed Gutenprint and it took care of that problem pronto.
aimai
I feel your pain.
aimai
patrick
…..and this is why my home computer has windows XP, as does my work computer…I have no plans to upgrade either.
JenJen
If it makes you feel any better, looks like our Little Bitsy is doing quite well in voting today. 4,471 and counting!
VOTE!
Good luck with the suck, John. You sound even more pissed than usual. :-(
General Winfield Stuck
Dead computers make excellent boat anchors. If you don’t own a boat, maybe you should buy one just in case.
licensed to kill time
Well, you gets no bread with one meatball….
(I’m sorry, your Italian deli story just made that pop out of my fingers!)
joeyess
Mac.
Comrade Darkness
I feel your pain. My phone only got 1/5 of its data back from microsoft yesterday (after going bye bye three weeks ago) and that felt stupendous! They initially said they’d lost all of it. It’s only a million customers. Peanuts, really.
Honestly, when google starts cutting significantly into the cash cow that is word/office, microsoft is going to hemorrhage but seriously. It isn’t going to be pretty. They make money on exactly two things: windows and office.
And your plan is a good one. Clean installs are like an enema for a really constipated computer.
JR
I type my deepest sympathies to you on my fully functioning and always dependable MacBook.
But remember, the problem with both the Italian deli and Microsoft can be solved in the same way: stop ordering from them.
Quiddity
I’m both surprised, and yet not surprised. Basically, the only thing that will get MS to clean up its act is competition. We’re not there yet, but I suspect it will come from below (e,g. netbooks running Ubuntu).
My main gripe with MS isn’t the OS, its the bizarre UI for the latest Office suite. Absolutely amazing. The “office button” w/o text label (functions like the File menu), the tiny ? in a circle that replaces Help, the semi-transparent top bar that makes it occasionally hard to discern buttons, and THE RIBBON. Merely change for change’s sake, IMO.
GReynoldsCT00
Best Buy? Good luck with that…
Bucky
My bet pays!
Bucky
My bet pays!
taylormattd
This is why I just buy a new computer with the OS already installed.
cleek
Mac schmack. just don’t do OS “upgrades”.
either wipe and install the new OS on a clean machine, or do what I do: only move to a new OS when it comes pre-installed on a new PC.
mantis
You need an extremely improbably group of multicultural folks gathered in your kitchen to chat about how great Microsoft is for the install to work properly. It’s in the fine print. RTFM.
Also, Mac’s rule. Also.
taylormattd
@cleek: Jinx.
Polish the Guillotines
Never, ever, EVER upgrade anything on any OS without backing it up first. Ever.
For Windows, I recommend Acronis True Image. Not to salt the wound, but had John imaged his system prior running the upgrade, all he’d have to do is restore the image and be right back to where he was.
This has saved my ass more than once.
For Mac OS, I think there’s something called Carbon Copy cloner, but I don’t know if it’s any good.
Bottom line: Never, ever, EVER upgrade anything without a means to revert to the previous state. Ever.
KGZ008
he had trust.
now.. he has fail.
the circle is complete.
General Winfield Stuck
You could cheer yourself up by watching Frank Gafney on Hardball timestuck in 2002 and still crazy as a shithouse rat.
Ron Reagan however, is on fire calling Dick Cheney an un indicted war criminal. Teehee. Gafney damn near swallowed his dick on that one.
Anoniminous
I blame Seattle Computer Products.
If those boneheads hadn’t sold Microsoft QDOS for a measly $100 grand NecroSloth wouldn’t have gotten the IBM contract for MessDos and we wouldn’t be having these discussions.
Comrade Mary
General, I was especially amused by Ron responding to Gaffney’s claim that Iraq DID TO! have WMDs by asking, “The ones we gave them back in the 80s?” which I couldn’t help but translate as “The ones my dad gave them back in the 80s?”.
I like that young-ish Reagan. Is his Air America show any good?
Fwiffo
Not that it’s exculpating for Microsoft, but backing up to an external drive, formatting, then installing fresh is always the correct way to install a new operating system. Upgrade-schmupgrade. In fact, doing that is necessary annual maintenance for a Windows PC anyway, even if you’re not going to a new version.
MNPundit
I thought you were upgrading to Windows 7 not vista.
El Cruzado
Maybe that’s the problem. MS employed a whole bunch of rocket scientists, which then proceeded to build a product that does launch and blow up.
GReynoldsCT00
@MNPundit:
He is… that’s part of the problem
Cat Lady
@General Winfield Stuck:
Ron Reagan fell far from that tree, thank the FSM. He’s always a great guest because the fucktards can’t be mean or they’ll make Nancy and the baby Jeebus sad.
I’m posting this from my Windows/Vista laptop, and that’s how it’s going to stay. QFT.
General Winfield Stuck
@Comrade Mary:
Don’t get his Air America show, though he has always been a get to the bottom line guy, and it galls the wingnuts to no end he is the son of their political patron saint, but they don’t dare say anything.
z
OSX bitches , do you ever learn?
cleek
@mantis:
like this ?
El Cruzado
@Polish the Guillotines:
Mac OS X has the “archive and install” option that’s about as good as a clean install without the hassle in 98% of the cases.
The 10.6 installer in fact does exactly that if there’s enough hard drive space (store the old system elsewhere, copy the new system in, copy preferences and stuff back into the new one). It just doesn’t advertise the fact.
Jim Pharo
Perhaps a mint?
Beauzeaux
I have upgraded two computers (not mine) to Windows 7 today without a hitch. I made sure to back up everything the owners wanted to keep, then wiped the hard drive and did a clean install. I will be doing the same on three of my four computers at home this weekend.
SiubhanDuinne
John, would it make you feel better if I pointed out that Bitsy is, as of 30 seconds ago, at 4498. Has she ever been this high before? Especially with tonight and two full days left to vote?
Yeah, I know. Don’t even bother.
MNPundit
@GReynoldsCT00: I guess. I don’t know, my procedure would be wipe the Hardrive and install Windows 7 over a clean install. In fact, that is what I am going to do as I have Windows 7 sitting here next to me. The only thing I need is a computer that can run it, that will have to wait.
cleek
good times.
damn those drug tests!
licensed to kill time
@SiubhanDuinne:
Darn.
Doctor Gonzo
@cleek:
This is correct. Never try an “upgrade” for Windows. Either start from scratch (as I’m doing tonight) or don’t bother. Upgrading in-place just causes problems.
Since I have XP, I have no choice but to start from scratch anyway, but even if I had (*shudder*) Vista I would still do a nuke-and-pave.
Martin
Took it out in 10.6. It’s just upgrade or install now. I liked the archive/install, but as of 10.5 the regular installer was almost flawless so they simplified things.
You can still do erase/install, but you do it through disk utility now. Apple got a lot of support calls by people that would erase/install not realizing that erase would wipe out their files, so the user has to really go out of their way to do this.
Rob in Denver
@John Cole: Might wanna check to be sure, but I don’t believe you have to return your Windows 7 upgrade disk to do a clean install. If 7 is like previous upgrade versions, you just need access to your Vista setup disk and/or license key.
El Cruzado
@Martin:
Read the rest of my comment. Archive and install is what it always does now behind the scenes, as long as there’s enough free hard drive space to get away with it.
Steve Balboni
Please allow me to quote myself from this past weekend when TimF asked about upgrading to Windows 7,
Given the track record of new Windows roll-outs I don’t see what could possibly go wrong.
ellaesther
Oh God, there’s this xkcd that perfectly describes your pain and I can’t find it! He starts upgrading, and in the end, they’re in the sea, hoping to fight off sharks. Anyone?
In the meantime, did y’all see that Israeli animation of the awesome xkcd take on the Discovery Channel song? It’s over at Boing Boing — and at my place, too, because I needed a moment to be proud of Israel!
Also: Good luck John! We’ll still be waiting for you right here, next week or so…!
JGabriel
mantis:
Can we please kill this meme? There is nothing “improbable” about a “group of multicultural folk”. Last night I went to a reception for my neighbor’s art show. She’s Japanese. I’m white. The reception was a mix of white, hispanic, east asian, and black guests.
True, I live in NYC, but my point is that, in anyplace that has sufficient population density, multicultural groups are the norm , and not at all improbable.
.
CynDee
Rant.
I’ve been a technical writer for 20 years. Since 2000, all I’ve ever wanted from Microsoft is that they stabilize the bullets and numbering in Word and leave everything else alone so I can just write.
Not there yet. With every “upgrade,” more useless complexity and bloated craptrap to crawl over, and climb down three levels to dig out constantly used basic functions that used to be up top.
I call the crazy Ribbon the Rockpile. What a mess, all clobbered up, with seldom-used functions obscuring the basics and making you go crawling around hunting for them like a caveman. Once found, you have one teeny pixel to click on to access. I have to add 25% to my billing if MS Office is involved.
After all these years of being a pretty handy software user, it’s maddening to spend more time fooling with the tool than creating content and value. It’s Pottersville on line, a perfect microcosm of the state of this country.
And don’t get me started on the useless massive mess that they call online Help or, to paraphrase Mark Twain, I’ll have to go break some furniture.
Thank God we’ve got creatures like Lily in existence, and Tunch is safely home again and John looking after them and crying tears for them and you can see really nice pictures of food and babies on this site, and General Winfield Stuck cracking us up, or I just wouldn’t be able to TAKE IT ANYMORE! Chocolate!
End of rant.
smiley
I always check the bag before driving away from the take-out window. Not that I eat fast food very often…
cyd
Now may be a good time to look into installing a Linux distribution.
Sentient Puddle
@CynDee: I feel ya. About a year and a half ago, I was interviewing for a tech writer job (which I am now in). Part of what they had me do was a little writing test where I had 30 minutes to sit down with a piece of software they cobbled together in Visual Basic and write up some documentation for specific features of it in MS Word.
About 20 of those 30 minutes were spent trying to make the damn ordered and unordered lists work like I was used to. At some point, I was about ready to call over and say “Hey, can I just write this in HTML instead?” Ugh.
Wile E. Quixote
@John Cole
This is great news for John McCain!
Wile E. Quixote
Oh, and do you know who else installed Windows 7? Hitler!
Colette
No, if it’s a Microsoft product, it’s more like ordering wings and blue cheese and getting a pet rock, an empty tupperware with a mismatched lid, and a pile of used typewriter ribbons.
Jeff
PEBCAK.
jeffreyw
@CynDee:
There there, now just sit down here and make yourself a sammich.
r€nato
I ain’t sayin’ nothing. Not a thing.
Violet
@CynDee:
Gawd, yes. Microsoft just seems to like to mess up what works. That bloated crap they call Office was tolerable, and then they went and created that new version to work with Vista. Can’t find half the stuff you need and the bullet points still aren’t stable. Why can’t they learn?
Scrutinizer
After a while, the computer religious wars just get silly.
Today I did a Win7 clean install on my laptop, and another Win7 upgrade only on my desktop, and had no problems with either one. (I do agree that the preferred way is a clean install, but the upgrade path isn’t always a disaster.) Years ago I took the upgrade path rather than the clean install when I went from 98 to XP. Also, I’ve been running Vista from day one without problem, except for occasional ATI card crashes, which went away about a year ago.
Linux is fun to play with, but it is by no means bullet-proof (and I keep one puter dedicated to Linux, and have since kernel 0.9). I’ve owned Mac 128s, 512s, Pluses, SE, SE30, and the Fx, but the problem with Mac is that it’s too damned expensive. You get a pretty box and a pretty UI, but frankly, I’m not interested in paying a premium for pretty.
Cain
The ubuntu upgrades for me have always gone fairly well. It’s installing ubuntu on the latest laptop that is always problematic as the drivers aren’t always there and some stuff like networking you really need.
sri
Maude
@CynDee: I use Abiword a lot. I like it because it’s easy. I like the Sinbad font.
If John had the Vista install disk, why not reinstall?
I would download ubuntu and run it, but hey, that’s me. It’s the hardware probs that windows causes.
If anyone does download ubuntu, it’s the bitorrent ,iso, desktop edition. In the version you want. Don’t use the regular desktop edition. Burn the cd.
The best site for ubuntu basics and screenshot clean install tuts is psycocats.
Tomorrow I continue with server apps to windows machines. It won’t be pretty.
I’d get that upgrade disk going at a good rate of speed as I hurled it upon the return.
r€nato
@mantis: I love you, may I bear your children?
demkat620
I’ll say it, Vista. Sux. Ass.
That is all.
Llelldorin
@ellaesther:
My google-fu is stronger than yours! Here’s <A HREF=”http://xkcd.com/349/”>the relevant XKCD
Jen R
@Martin:
I am so glad I don’t work tech support anymore.
Jack Roy
I fully expect that as the timeline approaches infinity, the proportion will approach 1 (possibly only 0.9999… , I’m not entirely sure of the math) of posts on Balloon-Juice that are categorized as either “Assholes” or “Tunch.”
ericblair
@CynDee: I’ve been a technical writer for 20 years. Since 2000, all I’ve ever wanted from Microsoft is that they stabilize the bullets and numbering in Word and leave everything else alone so I can just write.
I second this rant. I’m an IT consultant, and one of the big underappreciated costs is how many SME hours are spent trying to get numbering, bulleting, and indexing fixed in some Frankenstein Word document. We’re trying to get at least one person on the team trained up as far as possible in advanced Office-fu to be the guy able to fix this.
The big problem with the WYSIWYG document editors is that there is a huge gap between the simple click-a-button fixes and digging through the guts of the document to figure out what it’s “really” doing with internal variables and switches and fix that. Hey, LaTeX and vi may be hard to start using, but then it’s fairly obvious what it’s doing and you can actually fix problems.
Microsoft Windows is where it is because of vendor lock-in. It’s been collecting rent on the same pieces of software for over a decade now. I imagine they’re crapping their pants internally over Google apps, since that kind of service destroys their business model and they’ve never exactly been the nimble thought leader in the industry.
CynDee
@jeffreyw: Oohhh, beautiful. Thank you!
ericblair
BTW, I hope I ignite a vi versus emacs war to divert attention from the rather pedestrian Windows versus Mac one.
Right Wing Extreme
John,
You have my sympathies as well. I do IT repair so if you need help, e-mail me. [email protected]
JGabriel
@ericblair:
Astronauts or Cavemen?
.
Fulcanelli
@cleek: Aaaannnnnd the winner is… This.
OS upgrades never work. Do a clean install or stay on the porch with your old OS. Period. Full Stop.
Drop back ten and punt, Mr. Cole.
FiveInchTaint
I sometimes think Redmond is part of Bizarro World. For example, Microsoft has an agreement with many universities that allows students to download Windows 7 for free. Now the easiest and most painless way to accomplish this would be to have them download an iso image that can easily be burnt to disk or shoved onto a flash drive. That seems to have struck the geniuses at Microsoft as just a bit too simple. Instead, you download a .exe file that, in turn, downloads a proprietary, self-extracting archive that, when extracted, is supposed to contain the necessary stuff to install the OS. Not only is this convoluted, but if you’re trying to upgrade to 64-bit Windows 7 from 32-bit Vista, you’re absolutely screwed because the install program won’t run. Awesome.
Fulcanelli
@Wile E. Quixote: FTW!
Comrade Kevin
@Scrutinizer:
The most recent one of those was discontinued in 1992. The OS has changed rather drastically since then, you know.
bago
@Comrade Kevin: He runs linux. He knows.
MattF
For the record, the application that’s generally used to clone the contents of a Mac HD onto an external drive is ‘SuperDuper’. It works, and it saved my bacon a couple of months ago when the internal HD on my iMac failed. Just booted up from the external drive, and that was that.
Sean
@Quiddity: Exactly. It sucks sooo much. I also reallylike that keystroke combinations that have worked forever are now no longer valid. The entire Edit menu is gone (but if you can remember the keystrokes they apparently still work). I want to kick Bill Gates in the nuts.
lizzy
Mac……
James K. Polk, Esq.
All things equal, Windows 7 rocks. Been running it for about 3 months now (release candidate).
It’s like XP on crack.
techno
@Scrutinizer: WHY won’t you “pay a premium for pretty?”
I have never understood this argument. Like most guys, I have been chasing “pretty” most of my life. And I am not just talking about the women in my life–I am talking cars, and sailboats, and music, and furnishings. So why wouldn’t I pay a premium for something I look at for eight hours a day–at least?
Now I tell folks I am a Mac guy because of lack of viruses, ease of maintenance, stable platforms, etc. But I lie. I simply cannot stand the “aesthetics” of the world of Microsoft. Looking at Windows for that much of my life would be actually painful.
mclaren
Here’s how you fix it:
Throw out Vista. Throw out Windows 7. Buy a Windows XP OEM install disc on ebay and wipe your hard drive and install XP.
Windows XP will make your computer run four times as fast and requires half as much memory. It’ll be like getting a whole new much faster computer. If you’re really sharp, buy an OEM copy of Windows 2000 Pro on ebay and your computer will run 8 times as fast and require 1/4 as much memory.
As for your claim “I have had no problems with Vista,” we both know that’s not true. You posted repeatedly about your inability to print documents. When an operating system can’t manage to do something simple and basic like print a document to the printer, that’s a sign that the operating system is a piece of garbage not yet ready for prime time.
Do yourself a favor. Ditch Vista and avoid Vista Service Pack 3 (AKA WIndows 7). Install Windows XP and your troubles will vanish.
Since you supported the Bush crew until 2005, I know you won’t take this advice. Only 4 or 5 years down the road, when Windows 7 proves such a disaster than you finally have to abandon it, will you realize the soundness of the advice to ditch Vista/Windows 7 for XP.
ellaesther
@Llelldorin: Bless you! Kisses! Thank you!
I hate when I can’t successfully Google something….
bago
@mclaren: See, this is proof you’re a tard.
You want to install a 32 bit OS on a 64 bit machine with 8 gigs of RAM.
You like only having three gigs of ram. *smack*
Comrade Mary
OK, geeks and all ye who despair, here’s some freshness from Pomplamousse to make you a little happier.
September (for the singer’s dad, featuring her awesome grandma)
Mrs. Robinson for anyone who loves altos
mclaren
Thanks for explaining to us how ignorant and incompetent you are, bago.
Nobody needs 8 gigs of RAM unless you’re trying to calculate the mass of the proton using quantum chromodynamics. Nobody.
I want to install a 32 bit OS on a 64 bit machine so the 64 bit machine will run properly and won’t crash and blackscreen and can actually print documents.
You, however, prefer to have a 64 bit operating system that can access 8 gigs of RAM but can’t do something simple…like print a document.
Gee. Which is better: an OS with fabulous specs that can access a whole lotta RAM but can’t manage to actually print a document? Or an OS with less impressive specs that actually works?
Tough one, huh?
Were you always this stupid, bago? Did you go through the express lane at birth — 15 IQ POINTS OR LESS?
If John Cole wants to access 8 gigs of RAM (who knows why, no ordinary person needs that much RAM or will ever use it with a real OS that actually works, as opposed to a piece of crap like Vista/Windows 7), he can dual boot into the 64-bit version of Ubuntu from Windows XP.
You know, it’s people like you and Slippy, Bago, who are responsible for the fact that America is currently 18th in the world in broadband speed and dropping fast. It’s people like you a Slippy who are responsible for the Pentagon’s inability to conduct simple basic audits so they can actually figure out how much money they’ve spent.
Clowns like Slippy and Bago drop to their knees in awe at the specs on a piece of garbage like Windows 7, forgetting that it doesn’t matter a god damn bit how impressive the specs are…if the OS doesn’t actually f*cking work.
Lemme guess, bago: you work in IT at a Fortune 500 company. You’re too arrogant and too ignorant and too incompetent to be anything else but a high-ranking corporate IT honcho.
In fact…I bet you’re a CTO. Right? Nobody as clueless and foolish as you could possibly be anything else.
Keep cheerleading those dysfuctional piece-of-crap non-working operating systems, Bago. The rest of us will continue to use software that actually works.
different church-lady
For the past five dozen computer-related posts, I have held back my urge to say “Get a Mac.”
I hold back that urge no longer.
different church-lady
@Scrutinizer:
And you get a OS that works right from the get-go, without the kinds of problems John’s having. But let’s not quibble…
r€nato
@different church-lady:
sadly, many PC users only dig in their heels even harder, rather than taking this as well-meant advice. I’ve found that a sad silence speaks volumes as a response to listening to the latest tale of woe from a Windows user.
Trust me. You don’t need to nag them about it. Just sadly nod your head.
me
This is a per-process limit. A 32-bit x86 OS can address 8GB without trouble (setting aside arbitrary software limitations or hardware issues).
me
This is a per-process limit. A 32-bit x86 OS can address 8GB without trouble (setting aside arbitrary software limitations or hardware issues). Fixed blockquote hopefully.
different church-lady
@r€nato: Well, just as sadly, many Mac users really are insufferably smug, and I try not to be one of them.
bago
@mclaren:
Just curious, where did you get this notion that Windows 7 cann’t print a document? I’m using windows 7 (64 bit!) right now to print up some code so I can review it on the metro home.
Seriously. WTF?
If you want to live with 2001 hardware for the rest of your life, go for it. Enjoy not having support.
Fencedude
@mclaren:
Oh yay! Its mclaren.
xkcd is always relevant
r€nato
@techno:
My standard response to that bullshit “Macs are so much more expensive than PCs!!!” line:
“A Mercedes costs a lot more than a Chevy. They’re both cars that get you where you need to go – why on Earth would anybody pay so much more for a Mercedes???”
Of course the real truth is that Macs do NOT cost more than comparably-equipped PCs. And if you factor in the headaches, lost productivity, viruses, and inevitable trips to the PC repair shop because your PC has slowed to a crawl… a PC will cost you more than a Mac.
Not to mention, what costs more – having to replace your perfectly functional PC every two or three years in order to have a chance of operating the latest Windows OS without headaches, or having a Mac you can use for YEARS? I have a 9 year old G4 tower running Tiger and it does 85% to 90% of what I need to do daily. Including running Final Cut Pro and Photoshop CS2 and After Effects. It’s a bit slow… but I can definitely work with it. My other computer is a MacBook Pro.
I don’t know anyone who has a 9 year old PC they can use on a daily basis. I do know plenty of people who buy a new PC every two or three years because the old one fell apart or was too slow or won’t run very well the new flavor of Windows.
Fencedude
@different church-lady:
This makes you a rare, endangered species.
I try not to base my opinions on things on how I view the fans of it (this is how I survive being an anime fan), but by god every mac user I’ve ever met (in real life and online) has been an insufferable dickhead on the subject.
My best friend and I nearly came to blows on the subject several times during high school.
Chad N Freude
@different church-lady: @r€nato: A few months ago I replaced an XP laptop with a MacBook Pro and have been, well, not delirious, but happy. I’m contemplating replacing my very cool, sleek, black, whisper-quiet, borderline-dysfunctional XP desktop (floortop, actually) with one of the hot new 27-inch iMac gorgeousness machines, but my inner churchmouse complains about the expense. Can you ply me with seductive messages of encouragement?
Tattoosydney
smug on/
Get a Mac.
/smug off
different church-lady
@Fencedude:
Payback is a bitch, ain’t it? Can’t tell you how many times my friends laughed and pointed and repeated every “Mac is Dead” rumor with glee in the early 90s.
‘Course, that was before anyone had ever heard of spyware…
Fencedude
@r€nato:
Uhh…you realize most people are still using XP, and XP came out ~8 years ago, right? And that a machine that ran XP fine 8 years ago, will still run XP fine now.
PC Hardware upgrades are not, primarily, driven by OS upgrades, they are driven by increases in the requirements of what you run ON the OS. Most notably games, but there are other things as well.
For example, the main reason I just built a new computer was that my old one couldn’t run high resolution h.264 files, you simply can’t run a 720p or 1080p video smoothly on a single core machine, no matter how much RAM you have.
different church-lady
@Chad N Freude: you will not need to replace the Mac as soon as you would the PC.
I’ve never had a Mac I’ve used less than 5 years, including laptops (although if I had ever owned a 5300cs I’m sure that record would have been spoiled). For me, the time saved rebuilding operating systems added to the additional years of service makes the “premium” well worth paying.
Fencedude
@different church-lady:
Again, it depends on what you are using the machines for. A computer can become outdated even when there isn’t a new version of whatever OS you are using to run on it. For people who primarily do word processing, web browsing and perhaps light image editing, a machine can last for quite a while, but I’ve had 4 different XP machines over the years, and they were replaced because of any problems with XP, they were replaced because they could no longer keep up with the games and other programs I was using.
mclaren
Macs are really nice and they work. Leopard is clearly a superior operating system to Windows XP.
Problem is, Macs cost a fortune, you can’t upgrade ’em (gotta buy a whole new machine and a whole new OS — OS9 to OS X on G4s, G4s to Intel OS X Leopard, soon something else…incompatible, expensive and a huge change requiring you to throw out all your old Mac hardware and all your old Mac software). Plus, if somebody has been running Windows for years, chances are they’ve got a whole lot of Windows software they’ll want to use. True, you could switch to a Mac and then run XP in Boot Camp…but, really, if you’re going to do that, why not just run XP?
Tales of woe mainly result from people who drank the Kool Aid and made the horrible mistake of installing Vista or Windows 7. I’ve got 5 computers running Windows XP or Win 2K Pro (if you include a laptop) and not a single one of ’em has crashed or bluescreened or had any kind of problem in…well, I don’t know how long. 4 years? 5 years? 6? It’s been so long I can’t remember when I last saw a bluescreen. It was at least 2 presidential elections ago.
Of course that’s just my uninformed opinion. And the opinion of tiny little mom & pop storefront operations like Intel. Intel Won’t Touch Vista.
And of course when I point out Windows 7 is pig-slow, that’s just my ignorance showing. My ignorance, and the ignorance of the IT professionals who just conducted an exhaustive test in which Study shows Windows 7 isn’t faster to boot than Vista.
You guys have a point, though. Microsoft is in serious trouble here. If they don’t deep-six Vista/Windows 7 and go back and come up with a non-bloated non-piece-of-crap OS that actually works and doesn’t require some ludicrous amount of RAM like 2 gigabytes and an insane hard disk footprint like 14 gigs just to give you a desktop… Well, unless Microsoft shapes up, no one is going to move to Vista/Windows 7. No one. The total adoption rate of Windows Vista turns out to be 18%, which is a disaster for Microsoft. That includes people buying new computers with Vista already installed, so it means essentially no one has moved off of Windows XP, practically speaking. All the corporate IT, all the computer professionals, everyone who just wants their computers to work…they’re all sticking with XP. And if Microsoft keeps trying to push garbage OSs likw Windows 7 that don’t work on the public, Microsoft will continue to lose revenue and eventually, it will go broke and shut down, just like DEC or SGI.
In short, unless Microsoft shapes up, either Linux or the Mac will eat its lunch.
Tattoosydney
@Chad N Freude:
1. Pretty – brushed aluminium, huge screen, so sexy that you want to rub yourself against it when it comes out of the box.
2. Time each day from pressing power on button to fully functioning, ready to use computer – about twenty seconds.
3. Easy, no fuss, never, ever ever any fuss upgrades, usually taking about two minutes every couple of weeks.
4. Computer freezes about once every month. Press power button. See point 2. Computer works again.
I’m a low level user (a bit of word processing, some email and a lot of internet), but with a good amateur knowledge of computer functionality. I swapped a top of the range windows laptop that took six or seven minutes to start up, froze frequently, took up to half an hour to upgrade with compulsory shotdowns every time, and pissed me off every day for at least three years, for a sleek shiny iMac with a huge screen that has never given me a minute of real trouble. Every day I go to work, and use my work’s windows computers, shout, swear and curse just how fucking annoying they are, and every day I go home and kiss my sweet, wonderful, reliable sexy iMac.
Smug? you betcha. Microsoft can kiss my arse.
bago
@me: Checking the PAE documentation shows that win2k pro can only address 4 gigs of memory. With PAE win2k Advanced can hit 8, and Datacenter can hit 32. XP 32 bit can only talk to 4, period.
Thusly anything the excitable one recommended would still piss away half of the RAM on the machine in question, and not be able to run anything compiled PE64.
An Operating System built sometime this decade would of course address all of that space, generally negate the usage of a page file, and run both PE32 and PE64 bit binaries.
It will print, also.
Chad N Freude
@different church-lady:
and mucking about with finicky Windows applications, don’t forget that. Thanks. that’s a good point. I’ve been a Windows user since 3.1 and am forced to use XP at my place of employment, and my familiarity with Windows and windows apps (and a teeny bit of development years ago) have left me with a trapped feeling. But you’re right, a serious cost/benefit analysis makes the sting melt down to a minor itch. And at one time I was reasonably adept at Unix use (none of this new-fangled Linux stuff for me) and am comfortable with the BSD terminal on the Mac. So a delicate nudge with a finger will probably tip me over. I’m practically a goner.
hells littlest angel
Sorry to pile on, but I don’t understand why anyone would “upgrade” a functional operating system. Also, I’ve spent some time with Windows Seven and the best I can say about it is that it’s less crappy than Vista. Windows XP is fairly stable and unobtrusive. If MS has any sense they’ll put XP back on the market in 6 months, re-branding it Windows Classic.
Fencedude
@hells littlest angel:
Because things have moved onwards, yes XP “works” (I’m running it right now, and have no plans of upgrading before next year), but its becoming outdated, and will only become more outdated. The move to 64-bit architecture, alone, makes upgrading worthwhile.
different church-lady
@mclaren:
You are quite clearly exaggerating this situation: while there have indeed been painful migrations, most of the time there is some kind of backwards compatibility for a period, sometimes quite lengthy. (Example: my main word processor, AppleWorks, was purchased in 2003, long before the switch to Intel, and still runs like a charm on the Intel-based laptop I purchased a year ago. The dictionary program I purchased when running OS8 still functioned on OS 10.4, three CPU’s later.)
Ol'Froth
Hmmm…guess I wont be getting 7 after all. Vista working OK for me anyway.
Chad N Freude
@Tattoosydney: Thanks, mate. (Pronounced “Thanks, mite.”)
mclaren
@ hells littlest angel:
Exactly. If. That’s a big if, though. Right now, Microsoft is acting like a head trauma case. Ever since Gates left, Microsoft has been stumbling and fumbling and bungling without a clue.
They’d better wake up. The dark horse out there is React OS. What’s that, you say? Another version of linux?
Not just another Linux. React OS is designed from the ground up to work with Windows NT kernel binaries. Meaning, you can run every Windows 2000 Pro/XP device driver directly on React OS. But React OS is open source, and it’s linux, so it’s free.
Let that one sink in for a moment. A free open source OS that is 100% compatible with XP/2000 binaries. If Microsoft doesn’t shape up and get its act together, they’re liable to find that everyone currently running XP/2000 will simply migrate to React OS or some open source equivalent…where they can address as much RAM as they want (yeah, Bago, I know you don’t grasp that, just mull it over for a few weeks — it’ll come to you) and of course React OS is open source, so “many eyes make all bugs shallow.”
Seriously, time is running out for Microsoft here. At some point React OS or some open-source equivalent will duplicate XP’s functionality so perfectly, yet offer so many compelling advantages (like full 64 bit compatibilities, support for hardware virtualization, and access to RAM beyond 4 gigs) that everyone will simply bypass Microsoft’s operating systems entirely and move to some other free open source clone of XP. And that will be the end of Microsoft as a major player in IT.
Existenz
I’m using a MacBook Pro that I bought a few weeks ago. Before that I was using a PowerBook G3 from 1999. I was running OS X 10.4 on it. A computer from 1999! It still runs, it’s just slow.
So anyone who says you have to keep upgrading your Mac and throwing out old software is full of crap.
To the person who mentioned Carbon Copy Cloner, I’ve used it and it works great. Better than some of those drive utilities that you have to pay for (Drive Genius, etc.).
different church-lady
@Existenz: Man, I loved those old G3 laptops. I took apart my Wallstreet one day and to my eyes it looked like it was built so strong I could stun an ox with the thing without it crashing. I probably would have wrung another year or two out if it had I not decided to start using a new one for an audio recording workstation.
mclaren
@Existenz:
Mr. Crap evidently hasn’t tried to run the latest version of Logic Pro on his 1999 G3 mac. Or the latest version of Adobe CS3. Or the latest version of…well, you get the idea.
Here’s a fun test for ya, Mr. Crap: try going down to a local wifi cafe and popping open Hulu in your 1999 G3 running OS X Tiger. See if you can get streaming video to work on that 1999 G3 laptop of yours.
Yeah, didn’t think so. Mr. Crap is, indeed, full of it.
Fencedude
@mclaren:
But, sadly, so are you.
Tattoosydney
@Chad N Freude:
Bewdy bottler, cobber. How’s your father? I’m flat out like a lizard drinking, feeling a bit rooted. It’s friday afternoon, and I’m drier than a dead dingo’s donger, with buckleys of a bludge or a beer before knock off time. Makes me as mad as a cut snake, and feel lower than a wombat’s wazoo. Roll on the weekend, when we can sink some tinnies, have a bit of a perve and catch the porcelain bus. Ridgy didge, mate.
baldheadeddork
Hey John – I wish I could have said this before you started the upgrade, but the most reliable method I have for upgrading any operating system is to back up all of the files to a separate hard drive and do the upgrade as a fresh installation.
If you have your files backed up to an external hard drive, an online backup, or even a second internal drive, you can still do this. Load the Win7 DVD, reboot the computer, and choose new installation at the prompt. You will need the Vista DVD that came with the computer and the Vista product key, but if you can clear this hurdle this is by far the most reliable and fastest way to upgrade Windows.
ghost poet
John –
If the windows 7 install cd is bootable, then try booting off that. You used to be able to install off the upgrade cds and then you just insert your cd for the previous version when it’s checking for the old version. It worked for me back in the 2000->XP days when I bought the upgrade version of XP. It’s certainly cheaper than buying the full version of 7.
Good luck and sorry the upgrade went poorly for you, it’s usually easier to do a clean os install followed by the upgrade install (just a lot more time consuming).
Dean Booth
“Macs do NOT cost more than comparably-equipped PCs. And if you factor in the headaches, lost productivity, viruses, and inevitable trips to the PC repair shop…”
You can buy 3 decent PCs for the cost of one MAC. When the PC slows down or has problems, just give it to Goodwill and open a new one.
Mr Furious
I’m a Mac devotee, but they’re not perfect either. My rule has ALWAYS been: “If it’s working, don’t fuck with it.”
Only in the last few years have I trusted the automatic upgrades, and they haven’t screwed me yet.
But I haven’t ever paid for the big upgrades (ie: Snow Leopard, etc.) unless it’s coming on a new machine. OSX 10.4 is still working just as good for me now as it was two or three years ago.
The one thing that IS burning my ass up these days is Firefox. I entered the Firefox Beta program several versions ago, and it torched my autofill capabilities and never came back. I hate that shit.
All my bookmarks are in Firefox, and there seems to be no way that I know of to move them over to Safari.
bago
Well, I’m convinced. Mc ‘640K of memory should be enough for anybody.’ laren is truly a master debater.
Wile E. Quixote
@mclaren
Jesus H. Christ you are pig-ignorant. Really, you are stupid to the bone and every time you open your mouth about computers you display a level of stupidity that makes Erick Erickson look like a genius. For your information, since you obviously went through that 15 IQ points or less express lane at birth no hardware upgrades were necessary going from OS9 to OS X. None, nada, zip, fuck-all. Throwing some more memory into the box helped, but that was a small price to pay for the stability that OS X provided as well as having BSD under the hood. And when you went from OS9 to OSX you could either set the system up to dual boot, trivial on a Macintosh, or run OS9 apps in compatibility mode. Your ability to repeat lies and make stupid shit up on the fly is truly impressive, are you sure you’re not a Republican at heart?
Apple released their first Intel based systems three years ago, every OS release since that date, up to Snow Leopard has been released for both the PowerPC and Intel chips. Fat binaries containing code for both PowerPC and Intel architectures were trivial to implement in MacOS because MacOS X inherited the NeXT binary file format which allowed for fat binaries. As far as compatibility with older apps written for PowerPC goes it’s excellent. I purchased Macintosh Office five years ago, this was a PowerPC product, I’m still running it today on an Intel system and the performance is excellent, Apple included an emulation system, Rosetta, to provide backwards compatibility with PowerPC apps and I’ve never run across anything that it couldn’t handle.
Apple has upped the hardware requirements as they’ve upgraded the OS, 10.5 wouldn’t run on G3s, but Microsoft does the same thing. And Apple supports their users a Hell of lot longer than Microsoft does.
Your stupid and ignorant ranting vis a vis the virtues of Windows 2000, an operating system that couldn’t even burn a fucking CD without having a BSOD and which required you to restart the system any time you touched the networking stack is absolutely hilarious, it’s like reading that stupid editorial in Irritable Bowel Daily where they said that if Stephen Hawking had been under the care of the NHS he would have died years ago.
As far as Macs costing more than PCs, that’s old news. Apple realized years ago that they had to be more competitive with Intel and dropped their prices, this while they were still running systems based upon the PowerPC chips. Once they switched to Intel prices dropped even further. Yes, you can put together a whitebox clone for less money than a Mac costs, this is of course assuming that your time is worthless, yours obviously is because, well, because you’re worthless, mine isn’t. If you want something that isn’t a turbocharged piece of shit and instead just works out of the box the Mac is the way to go. Oh, and good luck getting support on your white box piece of shit or the cheap PC laptop you bought at Costco, especially if you install Windows 2000, aka Windows NT4++.
There’s also the fact that both Windows 2000 and Windows XP are ridiculously insecure and require a whole bunch of service packs and the installation of third-party anti-virus and anti-spamware products to bring them to a level that can be remotely considered as “secure”. This is what you get when you require the OS to run everything as administrator in order to get anything done and allow the browser to hook into the OS. Your OS of choice, Windows 2000, also doesn’t support the NX bit, which is a huge security hole. And let’s not even start on the registry, it was a bad idea in Windows 95 and has only gotten worse over the last 14 years.
different church-lady
@Dean Booth: “Decent” PCs are now going for less than $200 a piece? Who knew?
And I really got a kick out of your “disposable computer” argument. Yes, indeed, don’t we all want a computer we can just throw away every couple of years?
Mr Furious
@Wile E. Quixote: Nicely played. Not smug, just truth. Kinda like Obama and Fox News….
bago
@Mr Furious: Export your bookmarks. A bookmark is just a URL.
different church-lady
@Wile E. Quixote:
Is that why I can’t change an IP configuration on-the-fly without rebooting on the PC at work?
I guess I’m just an ignorant know-nothing because I’m spoiled by the Mac’s long-standing ability to move between one network config and another as I move from workplace to workplace…
Wile E. Quixote
@Chad N Freude
You’ll get the bitchez if you buy a new 27-inch iMac. OK, you won’t, but there’s an option to save some bucks, wait a few months and then start checking the the Special Deals at the Apple Store. This is where Apple sells refurbished systems. Every Mac I’ve purchased in the last five years has been refurbished and I’ve only had one problem, which occurred during the warranty period, which is one year, the same as the warranty period for new gear. It’s catch as catch can, especially for newer models, but it will save you a few hundred bucks. I just purchased a 24″ LED display for my iMac for $599.
Comrade Darkness
@Anoniminous: The true irony of how Quick and Dirty Operating System ended up ruling the universe… IBM was forced to hunt for an outside vendor for anti-trust reasons. Otherwise Unix would rule the day. Amazing, like the flap of the butterfly’s wings.
Comrade Darkness
@Wile E. Quixote: The Wall Street mac laptop (233Mhz G3 processor) we currently have shimmed to boot OS X 10.4 so it can run the stereo via iTunes through an airport seriously begs to differ with you.
I’d like to see you load and run Vista on a PC laptop from 1998. Go ahead. I’ll wait.
techno
@Chad N Freude: For goodness sakes BUY the 27 iMac the first chance you have.
1) They are QUIET. I think they have a fan but you’d never know it.
2) The monitor is just gorgeous! And the new ones are LED backlit. Just remember, it’s your eyes you are saving with a good monitor–your EYES!
I have a 24″ iMac and it has ZERO problems editing HiDef video in native 1920 x 1080 (ProRes422). Of course it’s not as fast as a real tower for 3d rendering, video compression, etc.
Not bad!
Comrade Darkness
@Comrade Darkness: That last comment was directed at Chad, obviously. Well, not obviously enough to not make sure that was clear.
The Pale Scot
@Tattoosydney
Your apple shouldn’t “freeze” period, if its an application that is freezing, go to the apple and use Force Quit, there is no need to restart, if your mac is freezing aka, “kernel panic” it needs some TLC, use repair permissions, and boot from another partition or install disk and run the disk repair, even better get DiskWarrior, its great.
Comrade Darkness
@Mr Furious: Bookmark syncing between browsers: xmarks.com I run three different laptops so this kind of thing is a necessity.
Or if you really are switching browsers forever, just go to Firefox:Bookmarks:Organize Bookmarks, and under the last button in the header (sort of a star thing) you will find export html. Then in Safari, go to File:Import Bookmarks, and point it at that html file you just created.
Comrade Darkness
@Tattoosydney: You can also hold down option-command-esc if the mouse isn’t really available, and that will bring up the force quit application window.
EVERYONE, mac users and otherwise, must keep all adobe products updated. There are security holes in Flash and PDF being exploited on all platforms. Download and install Adobe Updater and run it frequently.
The Pale Scot
Mr Furious,
>organize bookmarks > export HTML >
or you can just drop and drag from one bookmark manager to another
zzcool
Before you read the rest of this short essay, go and put a helmet on, because this could literally blow your fricken mind and I don’t wanna be responsible for getting brain matter all over your nice curtains.
Ok, done?
If you are deciding between buying a Mac or a Windows machine this christmas and you’ve heard the arguments about how a Mac is a little too expensive but the Windows machine has the processing power that you need but can take an eternity to load, blah blah blah…
Buy the Windows machine and use the money you saved to purchase a suitably sized solid state drive (SSD) and install the operating system on it.
I would suggest either an Intel X25-M or one of the new IndiLinx drives that are coming out.
Don’t take my word for it though. Go and google it. See what Anandtech is saying about the drives and the reduction in application and operating system loading times.
However my final recommendation would be to purchase a machine that suits your needs. If all you ever want to do is word process and graphical work (video/images) then go ahead and buy a Mac. There’s no sense in having a dairy farm and only one cow to milk. (although with the price of a Mac you probably could buy a dairy farm /snark)
If you enjoy gaming on a desktop computer then Windows is the only way to go if you want to play the latest and greatest.
Chad N Freude
@Tattoosydney:Tengo suficientes problemas tratando de aprender Español (para viajar en países espanohablantes sin un traductor). No necesito aumentar mis problemas trantando de aprender Owstrylian también. Pero aprecio mucho sus sus intentos para que me enseñara su idioma. Muchas gracias.
I’d really like to visit Australia and have a few beers with you. Although I think your interpretation of “few” might be different from mine. Cheers.
Chad N Freude
@Chad N Freude: That should be one “sus”, not “sus sus”, but the damned edit button has disappeared.
Chad N Freude
@Chad N Freude: And “trantando”should be “tratando”. Where did the edit button go?
Tattoosydney
@Chad N Freude:
De nada. Este não é uma problema. Estou feliz que eu pudesse te expor a lingua Australiano. Esse será útil se tu viajares a Australia.
I’m a weaking when it comes to beer compared to my compatriates… fifteen or sixteen is my absolute limit.
Chad N Freude
@Tattoosydney: Dios mio. Portugues también?
I give up. You win! How many beers does the loser have to drink?
And what happened to the f’ing Edit button?
Tattoosydney
@Tattoosydney:
Aquele devera estar “ao Austrália”, suspeito.
Tattoosydney
@Chad N Freude:
Um pouco, e está muito dificil.
It’s usually more important how many beers the loser has to throw up…
Chad N Freude
@Tattoosydney: Ok, you’re funnier than I am. But there’s always this.
Tattoosydney
@Chad N Freude:
I don’t think that’s necessarily true.
RareSanity
@Wile E. Quixote:
Excellent!
Every time mclaren posts about W2k being da bomb, it reminds me of the one and only debate I got into with a tech zealot. This one was about programming languages on a microcontroller, but exact same dynamic.
Swore I would never get into one of those again…so, thank you for steppin’ up…
Chad N Freude
@Tattoosydney: I have to go. Otherwise I will be even more dysfunctional than usual in the morning. But I would like to continue talking with you on whatever threads take our mutual fancies. Wait! that sounds kind of … you know … well, I mean whatever threads we both comment on … when we both comment … on the same subject.
Tattoosydney
@Chad N Freude:
I haven’t had one of those for years. sigh.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
Nothing like a good nerd fight for a laugh. Eyes closed, heads turned and arms a’flailin, what a nerdy sight to behold.
Mako
@JGabriel:
Ah, she’s one of them yellows?
Steeplejack
@Quiddity:
Seconded. God, it’s awful. A month after “upgrading,” I am still hitting keyboard shortcuts that no longer exist.
Bil
I’m a software developer, and I’ve been using and programming computers for about 30 years now. Just bought a new laptop a few months ago running Vista. No problems at all with it. It’s super-fast, looks great, and it’s highly dependable. I don’t even re-boot it, just hibernate it so I’m always back where I left off. Runs an external monitor. Cost about $600.
Things now are so much better than they used to be…
Oh hey and it’s got great speakers too.
mantis
@JGabriel:
Can we please kill this meme? There is nothing “improbable” about a “group of multicultural folk”.
No, and I wasn’t saying that. There is something improbable about that particular group of multicultural folk (from the Microsoft house party ad) standing in that kitchen talking about Windows.
Last night I went to a reception for my neighbor’s art show. She’s Japanese. I’m white. The reception was a mix of white, hispanic, east asian, and black guests.
And a similar mix was present at my house when we had people over last weekend. I’m not saying people of different ethnicities/cultures/races don’t hang out. I just find it hilarious that an incredibly forced marketing vehicle from Microsoft asks us to believe that a Florence Henderson type grandma, white suburban soccer mom, polo-wearing professional black guy, and white faux-hipster dude all would hang out in the kitchen talking about Microsoft. Sorry, but if you don’t find that funny, your liberalism is killing your sense of humor.
It’s ok to find the realities of the mixing of cultures and races in America, and business clumsy attempts to mirror those in a very watered-down way, funny without being like William F. Buckley or (to go another, unfunny way) Carlos Mencia.
Jon H
@mclaren: “Nobody needs 8 gigs of RAM unless you’re trying to calculate the mass of the proton using quantum chromodynamics. Nobody.”
We have a Mac Pro here at work with 32 GB of RAM for Matlab processing of multi-electrode neural impant signal data.
“I want to install a 32 bit OS on a 64 bit machine so the 64 bit machine will run properly and won’t crash and blackscreen and can actually print documents.”
Works on the Mac. In fact you can run 32 and 64 bit applications, on a 32 bit kernel, on a 64 bit machine. And you can print.
mantis
“Nobody needs 8 gigs of RAM unless you’re trying to calculate the mass of the proton using quantum chromodynamics. Nobody.”
We have a Mac Pro, used strictly for video work, with 8 gb of RAM. It cuts down on production time significantly.
Mr Furious
Thanks everyone! I figured it was something easy, just not clear…
Bye, Bye Firefox!