This Friedman column is alarmingly on target:
Our one-party democracy is worse. The fact is, on both the energy/climate legislation and health care legislation, only the Democrats are really playing. With a few notable exceptions, the Republican Party is standing, arms folded and saying “no.” Many of them just want President Obama to fail. Such a waste. Mr. Obama is not a socialist; he’s a centrist. But if he’s forced to depend entirely on his own party to pass legislation, he will be whipsawed by its different factions.
***“Just because Obama is on a path to give America the Romney health plan with McCain-style financing, does not mean the Republicans will embrace it — if it seems politically more attractive to scream ‘socialist,’ ” said Miller.
Meanwhile, the new Republican brain trust, Sarah Palin, is posting her deep thoughts in the WSJ.
JHF
I think I’ve figured this all out: based on everything I’ve heard about the speech tonight and the interviews leading up to it, our basic problem is that Obama just isn’t very smart. There, I said it.
For all his accomplishments, for all the “Jedi knight” B.S., for all my admiration during the fall campaign, he just doesn’t get it. He’s not doing a rope-a-dope, he’s doesn’t have a grand long-term vision, he’s just an ordinary doofus with a great gig and lifetime security.
We needed a Lincoln, we got an insurance salesman.
Incertus
I’m sure that to Friedman, the idea that Obama would have to work between factions that are liberal and conservative as opposed to conservative and stubatshit is indeed terrifying. I, for one, am pleased with that potential because it means that liberals will at least have a place in the discourse. I’d like more, of course, but considering what we’ve had for the last thirty years, I’ll take this.
linda
and the banksters continue unfettered:
When Peter Means returned to graduate school after a career as a civil servant, he turned to a debit card to help him spend his money more carefully.
So he was stunned when his bank charged him seven $34 fees to cover seven purchases when there was not enough cash in his account, notifying him only afterward. He paid $4.14 for a coffee at Starbucks — and a $34 fee. He got the $6.50 student discount at the movie theater — but no discount on the $34 fee. He paid $6.76 at Lowe’s for screws — and yet another $34 fee. All told, he owed $238 in extra charges for just a day’s worth of activity.
Mr. Means, who is 59 and lives in Colorado, figured employees at his bank, Wells Fargo, would show some mercy since each purchase was less than $12.In addition, a deposit from a few days earlier would have covered everything had it not taken days to clear. But they would not budge.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/your-money/credit-and-debit-cards/09debit.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
General Winfield Stuck
A a flying circus of wingnut wankery it is. A spiffy aggregator of right wing blogs and tea bagging zen. A nation turns it’s lonely eyes to you Mrs.Palin.
Democrats are for and against themselves and we are all just along for the ride/
slag
@JHF: Obama’s more than smart enough. He’s just new at this. And if he keeps his ego in check, he’ll learn quickly. In fact, he is learning quickly. I just hope he’s learning the right lessons.
Blue Raven
I hear “Sarah Palin in the WSJ and find myself wondering if this is Murdoch’s way to introduce the US financial market to the concept of the Page Six girl.
Comrade Dread
Oh, Sarah, Sarah, Sarah… you really do not want me to be asking myself that question, or I would start laughing hysterically at the idea that the party which brought us 5 trillion dollars of debt and a massively costly and inefficient Medicare drug plan had anything useful to say about fiscal responsibility, cutting costs or creating useful health care reforms.
General Winfield Stuck
@JHF:
Drivel
Cyrus
@JHF:
Obama’s intelligence seems indisputable, based on that campaign you mention. Probably not the smartest and most skilled politician ever, of course, but better than average. So if he still doesn’t get good results, does that mean that (1) he will get good results eventually, (2) he’s bought into and is blinded by the conventional wisdom – a mistake made by many generally smart people – about the importance of Broderish bipartisanship, (3) or does that mean that his actual priorities are more incremental and pro-corporate and conservative than ours?
Most likely, it’s a mix of all three in varying degrees. As for (1), pessimism and defeatism are easy and common, and Matt Yglesias and others have pointed out that a health care reform bill might not include a public option at all and still could be a lot better than the status quo. As for (2) and (3), they would suck, but no one would be surprised except for conservatives. But who knows.
Reks
This century will be the Chinese century. I’m not someone who clings to the “America is the greatest nation in the world” canard but it is sad to see us fall behind because we no longer have the vision or ability to come together for our long-term progress in education, infrastructure, and technology..
Lola
@JHF:
Not being smart is not Obama’s problem. I think assuming other people are smart when they are not is kind of Obama’s problem. But then again, I’m totally convinced health care reform is going to pass and be pretty good.
I think a lot of liberals get over-confident in their ideas. I grew up in a conservative area and I know that most of the country does not think the way we do. We shouldn’t be crazy like the wingers and overestimate our support. Americans as a group are hesitant about change.
Obama will pass something that progressives will probably be disappointed with. I still think there is a good chance it’ll have a public option. It will be added on and expanded for decades to come because once it is there people will feel comfortable.
linda
another good one about how the debate over healthcare reform has rejuvenated the christian taliban:
Polls show that the health-care packages on the Hill are widely unpopular among evangelicals. More than seven in 10 white evangelical Protestants in the most recent Washington Post-ABC News poll said they are dissatisfied or angry about the Democratic reform proposals.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/08/AR2009090802985.html?hpid=topnews
Gregory
Which means that the legislation will be negotiated between conservative-ish liberals and liberal-ish conservatives.
Which is as it should be. It’s just that the Republican Party, by embracing the crazy, has dealt itself out of the process.
Sadly, this obvious fact can only be mentioned in a newspaper’s opinion page.
MattF
Well, the wingers fired off all their weapons in August, but the war is still going on. And even the Mustache of Wisdom has noticed that 1) the winger target was Obama, and he’s still standing, and 2) Congress is back in Washington and the Dems are literally begging for leadership. So, we shall see…
scav
Finding a nut in this country recently is not exactly hard to do.
yeah yeah, other definition. well, excuse me, I needed a teeny break from gibbering on the floor from the sheer terror at the people who are suddenly appearing reasonably sane in context.
SenyorDave
I don’t understand the whole WH approach to HCR. Apparently, Obama will say in his speech to Congress that he’s for the public option but will not commit to it. Obviously, it will not be part of a final bill, since NONE of the Republicans want it, and some Democrats don’t.
He has acted weak throughout the whole process, I don’t understand why the initial default wasn’t something more drastic so that the public option would be the compromise. I now think we will end up with a big gift to the insurance companies. If that is the case, he is toast, because there’s no chance to do anything about the deficit. The GOP will run for the next few cycles as the party of fiscal responsibility, the media will be their water boy, and some asshat like Pawlenty will be elected. Unless I win the lottery I’ll have to remain in this country, and the only consoloation will be that the morons in Mississippi will get shit upon worse than I will.
BR
@Reks – China will do well this century, no doubt, but they have major problems that nobody talks about, especially not the Chinese government. For example, they will have a massive labor shortage starting in the 2020s because of an aging population and past population control. India on the other hand will have a young labor force until 2050.
Also, most projections show that China’s main sources of water will be depleted by 50% in the next couple of decades, and what isn’t depleted is heavily polluted.
Polish the Guillotines
Friedman’s wrong about one thing: They’re not standing around with their arms folded, they’re standing around with their dicks in lobbyist’s special places (ht GOS): Some “family values” Orange County Republican wanker in the CA state assembly caught on tape bragging about porking his lobbyist girlfriends. Coincidentally, his not-his-wife sexual partners lobby for industries that his committee oversees. Fancy that.
From a purely CA-centric position, it’s clowns like this guy that are holding the entire state budget process hostage. I hope his chippies gave him a flaming dose of herpes. But, I’m a realist: He’ll cry at a press conference about how the threat of gay marriage made him dirty and sinful, and then his OC constituents will forgive him and the beat goes on.
From a national political perspective, it’s just one more example why there’s simply no point trying to work with Republicans. They’ve become venal and corrupt beyond redemption.
If ever there was a time for the Dems to crank up the legislative steamroller, this is it.
joes527
@JHF:
That was _always_ the risk in the 2008 election. A caretaker president or even a good president was never what we needed. We are so far up shit creek right now, we needed greatness, and there was no way to know if he would rise to the moment.
That said, it is a bit early to throw in the towel on Obama. Yes, a lot of what he has done has been disappointing, and no, I don’t believe that all the disappointments are 7th dimensional chess. That is a cop out.
But give him a chance. Anyone who expected a perfect president needs to go back to preschool. There is really no point in even trying to assess how he is doing overall ’till the 2012 primaries start heating up.*
There is lots of time between now and then for Obama to declare himself as the man of the moment, or just the man in the suit. And unless you want to join with the birthers, there is nothing you can do about the fact that he is president before then.
(asterisk) There is a difference between criticizing particular actions and positions that Obama takes, and declaring him a failure. The former is fully justified. The later is really premature.
Brian J
If you can accept the idea that there are conservative health care policy wonks who, despite some various connections to the insurance industry, do want to see meaningful reform enacted, it’s not crazy to think that there might be some who’d be willing to work with the administration. I almost want Obama to invite these people to the White House for a talk, even if the value is more on the public relations end than on the policy end.
The problem, of course, is that these people, where they do exist, are very small in number. That is, they might as well not exist. Instead, we’re left to deal with some combination of (a) anti-government types who refuse to accept a legitimate role for government outside of perhaps a small military, road building, and perhaps police and fire departments, (b) people who despite all available evidence insist things are just peachy with our current health care system, (c) greedy bastards who can’t fathom paying more in taxes to ensure a better quality of life for those on the lower end (and this is the charitable interpretation), (d) deranged lunatics who see a conspiracy and totalitarian dictatorship every time they see Obama. In other words, the majority of the opposition is useless, if not downright destructive.
That’s why I hope Obama calls these people out tonight, in a subtle but gut ripping way. If people take nothing away but the idea of “Fuck! That could happen to me in a few years!” and start to realize one side couldn’t give less of a shit, tonight’s speech will have been worth it.
Balconesfault
@Reks: <b.it is sad to see us fall behind because we no longer have the vision or ability to come together for our long-term progress in education, infrastructure, and technology..
Something to be said here. While Americans fight tooth and nail over the idea that government should be involved in planning anything, or should just cut taxes and let the free market gamble their tax savings on derivatives … in China government is building massive windfarms, investing huge amounts in solar technology, and pushing the next generation of battery powered vehicles.
The USSR convinced everyone that a state controlled economy is destined to do stupid things. China is working hard to prove that isn’t a given.
gnomedad
@Lola:
This. I’ll believe Obama was born in Iran before I’ll believe he’s not really smart. No one runs for national office with a big ego, but I think Obama’s is fed by achievement and not be grabbing power for its own sake. How much he’s willing to compromise and still feel that he got what he wanted is another question. I’m guessing / hoping he’s gonna kick some butt tonight. We’ll see.
Balconesfault
@linda: More than seven in 10 white evangelical Protestants in the most recent Washington Post-ABC News poll said they are dissatisfied or angry about the Democratic reform proposals.
Their anger beginning, of course, when they heard they were Democratic reform proposals.
Chad N Freude
Regarding Obama’s political savvy or lack thereof, I was under the impression that he occasionally talked with experienced, successful politicians, like that fellow Biden and that other Chicagoan named Rahm Something. Is the assumption here that Obama receives bad advice, doesn’t take advice, acts without consulting knowledgeable people, like Cheney? Doesn’t his posse have any say in framing issues and setting policy?
Demo Woman
Sarah’s oped written with the help of ?? had a few interesting sections. Of course she still has the death panel and doesn’t make any suggestions on insurance regulation. Repubs have preached the merits of privatizing Medicare but recently have been silent about that goal. I was surprised to see this paragraph in the oped.
valdivia
I have to say that I usually come here for the commenters as much as the main posts but this thread has the most drivel per comment I have ever seen. Obama is stupid, an insurance salesman, a caretaker, etc. are you people serious?
[walks away shaking head]
ppcli
@BR:
” China will do well this century, no doubt, but they have major problems that nobody talks about, especially not the Chinese government. For example, they will have a massive labor shortage starting in the 2020s because of an aging population and past population control.”
I’m sure that by that point there will be lots of Americans who will be happy to emigrate as non-citizen workers to build their railroads, set up cheap laundries and cheap restaurants offering versions of American foods adjusted for a Chinese palate, living in camps outside town, etc.
Demo Woman
@Demo Woman: I somehow lost the most important quote.
Instead of poll-driven “solutions,” let’s talk about real health-care reform: market-oriented, patient-centered, and result-driven. As the Cato Institute’s Michael Cannon and others have argued, such policies include giving all individuals the same tax benefits received by those who get coverage through their employers; providing Medicare recipients with vouchers that allow them to purchase their own coverage; reforming tort laws to potentially save billions each year.
She wants to remove the safety net seniors have.
Brian J
Perhaps it’s an apples-to-oranges comparison, but let’s look at his behavior during the election. Instead of assuming that he had the nomination wrapped up, he worked his ass off in the obscure corners of the country to round up delegates. Instead of freaking out, like me, at the alleged threat of Sarah Palin, he and his staff doubled down, kept on raising money, registering voters, and working on turnout plans, and, among other things, focusing on the long term instead of the daily news cycle. I think the results speak for themselves.
No, he’s not perfect, but as you said, he’s certainly learning. It’s also important to remember that this isn’t a fight about making a certain tract of land a national park. It’s a process of trying to reform a major part of our economy and government, with vested interests attacking him from all sides. The struggle was bound to be massive, but so far, despite landing some blows, the other side hasn’t come close to knocking him out.
r€nato
Actually, we DO have two parties debating health care/energy/climate legislation. It just so happens both parties reside in the Democratic party, which is now fortunate enough to be home to ‘base’ liberal Democrats as well as many others who are more center-left or even center-rightists who at one time were Republicans but have been chased off by the crazies in the GOP.
So the next time any of you are annoyed by these ‘blue dog’ Dems, remember that it’s better to have them inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. I just wish there were fewer of them… but if we have to have them around at all, let’s have them on our side.
General Winfield Stuck
@valdivia:
The circular firing squad is open 24 hours a day/
gnomedad
@Balconesfault:
I still think a state run economy ends up doing stupid things. China is becoming as capitalist as we are in some respects. Including, unfortunately, telling people affected by industrial pollution to stuff it.
r€nato
…and now the part of me that can’t help but talk endlessly about his Italian heritage, is thinking back to the Guelph/Ghibelline wars during the Renaissance and pre-Renaissance period. Ghibellines nominally supported the Holy Roman Emperor (that is, German claims on lands in Italy); Guelphs nominally supported the Pope (that is, Papal claims on lands in Italy).
Florence finally rid themselves of the Ghibellines for once and for all… and then promptly split into feuding between “Black” Guelphs and “White” Guelphs.
Chad N Freude
@gnomedad: And the difference between “controlled” and “run” is . . . ?
Ed in NJ
@JHF:
Quick and to the point: go fuck yourself.
I’m an insurance salesman. We are not all evil. We provide a needed service. I have to work within the rules of the industry, but that doesn’t mean I can’t fight to change those rules.
And to the larger point- we asked for a change to politics as usual, and so we get a man who is steady, consistent, and doesn’t play partisan politics. All the while the other side continues to play the old game. This is exactly what we asked for. Just because the Republicans and the media (and probably independents) haven’t figured it out yet, everyone is in a panic.
But healthcare reform is going exactly as was predicted a few months back. The media is covering this in the way that best fulfills their epic battle script. Obama proposes reform, Republicans make their grand stand against it. Health care reform is on the brink of defeat. Followed by Obama’s big comeback (starting with the speech tonight). Health care reform passes, Obama is credited with this monumental achievement, and pundits later congratulate him on his poise and restraint throughout the process.
Of course all this unravels if the final plan has mandates and no public plan. Then it’s a political disaster for Democrats.
CoffeeTim
@ppcli and BR:
I lived in China most of 2007 and keep in close contact with friends there. One thing I learned is that you can’t trust any statistics you get on China. They generally don’t correspond to reality on the ground and don’t take into account the ability of the Chinese to change directions in a very short time.
Currently (more so now than even two years ago) China has a huge volume of unemployed and under employed folks. It seems to me rather unlikely that China will suffer much of a labor shortage any time soon. To solve the problem, if there indeed is one down the road, it would be a simple matter of China automating much of what is currently done by hand. There are huge efficiencies to be gained in virtually all Chinese industries. A simple example is construction site labor. So much is literally done with a shovel and wheel barrow that could quite more effectively be done by a backhoe. They do it by hand now because it’s cheaper, not because they can’t see another way.
China has huge problems but a labor shortage will not be one of them. Labor unrest, now that’s another issue entirely.
The biggest difference I see between America and China is individual attitude. In the US, the most ignorant and uneducated of us takes it as a matter of faith that his voice is as important and worthy of being heard as anyone’s, as is amply evidenced by the Teabaggers, et al. In China, the most educated, wise and well spoken individual does not generally believe his voice needs to be heard on public policy. He’ll have an opinion but not generally voice it. For the most part the folks I know there don’t mind the arrangement because it works for them.
Right now, I’m fairly convinced this is a considerable advantage they have over us. Democracy is messy and inefficient. Central control is far more clean and efficient. We seem to be happy with our system. They seem to be happy with theirs. We’ll see whose works better over the next 30 years or so.
Brian J
I think the bigger disaster is having mandates without having subsidies at 400 percent of the poverty line. Supposedly, this could put a lot of people in a real bind.
That said, I’d still rather have the public option versus the subsidies at this point, since I’m guessing that it’s much easier to increase the subsidy break off point down the line than it is to try to create a public option at a later date.
Tsulagi
Don’t know what kind of education Friedman has, but a 7/11 slurpee clerk in training could have that keen insight. Pretty obvious to even the oblivious current GOP is all about throwing temper tantrums screaming they won’t play until they own the ball. It’s the new Country First.
Sliding way down on the intelligence scale from the slurpee clerk, the Wingnut Wonder’s op-ed was nothing but air. Give points to whoever wrote it for her on basic sentence structure. At the end she got one thing correct…
It would be nice if Dems in Congress and the WH could figure that one out too.
valdivia
@General Winfield Stuck: I know, it just makes me so dispirited to come here and read stuff like this. We still have people who see the forest for the trees but in general the tone taken with Obama by some of the left just makes me very angry. Why the fickleness?
SenyorDave
Is there a more dishonest, lying sack-of-shit editorial page than the WSJ? I would have trusted Pravda in its heyday more than the WSJ. I’m not even sure if it mattered that Murdoch took over, they were that way for a long time before.
And they aren’t even batshit, wingnut crazy. They are knowingly dishonest, publish anything so long as it fits their worldview.
But they did give “lucky duck” a new life.
And once for all let’s get it right – I don’t know about Sarah Palin’s intelligence, but she is an evil person.
Jaime Lutz
Guys, he is probably closer than any president has been to passing (near-) universal health care. Something presidents have been trying to do since FDR. I don’t think that’s a failure just because it’s not perfect (look at Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP — they’ve all gotten better, not worse).
Zifnab
@gnomedad:
All economies end up doing stupid things. That’s the price of doing business. The difference is that a national government is always “Too Big To Fail”(tm) and can keep making the same stupid mistakes over and over again. Likewise, big businesses with large revenue streams and cushy “Oops, we fucked up” bumpers are free to Valdez themselves over and over again to few serious consequences.
Ideally, when an organization fucks up it either changes its methods or it collapses in failure. But governments and businesses alike have too much propping them up to allow that kind of failure to force a change. “Capitalism” and “Communism” have never been magic buttons.
But in American Capitalism, much like in Chinese Communism, the major players are so insulated from the consequences of their actions that they rarely if ever feel the need to fix glaring problems.
gnomedad
@Chad N Freude:
OK, a better contrast would be “directed” vs. “operated”. Relying on low-level decision-making.
gnomedad
@Zifnab:
Well said. Accountability is key.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@JHF: We’re only nine months into this administration. Obama, ever the Lincoln student, needed to be able to say to the GOP:
Of course, he could be getting rolled… but I remember when I first heard that Barack Hussein Obama II was running for president. The first thought that came unbidden was “them white folks ain’t gonna let you anywhere near their White House, brother!” I was proud that he was willing to try it… but win?
PRESIDENT Barack Hussein Obama II may not get everything he wants… or we want… but I’m still not ready to bet against him.
CalD
This gets to the core of the reason why I confidently predict that Republicans will retake neither house of Congress next year. Much as it drives the political left to the brink of apoplexy, the Democratic party has become the last refuge for political moderates in national politics.
The Republicans, having effectively purged their own party of moderates and even actual conservatives at this point (the few that remain are keeping their heads way down these days), have no one around to even try and dissuade them from the childish excesses of blind partisanship. I tend to attribute the results of ’06 and ’08 elections more to the electorate finally becoming sick and tired of their tantrums than anything the Democrats did right. But I see no signs of similar fatigue among Republicans and my best guess is, the longer they keep it up the better for Democratic fortunes in the mid-terms.
Polish the Guillotines
@Brian J: What you said.
I find myself very frustrated by all the “Obama’s a failure” crap. I’m not saying criticism of policy is a bad thing, but people seem to have forgotten the last ten or fifteen years.
The Republican party has done such significant damage to the political health of this country that it’s going to take years to recover, not a mere nine months.
From 1994 to 2006, the GOP damn near destroyed Congress. Using the Impeachment power to go after a popular president they didn’t like weakened the authority of the institution and is almost solely responsible for it never being used against Bush: they poisoned the well making what would have been a legitimate exercise of the power appear partisan. (I’m not saying to foresaw the situation, only that their selfish partisan motivations put the entire country on bad footing.)
After Bush was elected, the GOP congress ceded their constitutional powers to White House. They almost never asserted themselves as an independent, co-equal branch of government. They instead opted for pure team play, which meant zero oversight of war contracts, Iraq reconstruction, financial regulation, health and safety regulation, and on and on.
Perhaps most importantly, I believe the GOP’s incompetence and disrespect for the Constitution has left a generation believing Congress exists merely to do the President’s bidding. This is flat-out dangerous. It leads to the assumption that the Executive branch should and does wield more power than it’s actually allowed.
We see in much of the criticism of Obama that he’s not exercising power that he frankly isn’t permitted under the Constitution. I voted for the guy because he made clear he understands this and he understands that the only way to allow the scales to re-balance is for the Executive to stand down — at least a little.
It’s very unsatisfying to watch, and it’s harder still when the current Democratic congressional leadership is less than A-game material. But there’s a lot of damage to undo. It’s going to take time, effort, and a clear understanding on our part what the Constitution is all about.
Ash Can
I understand Friedman’s point, but I’m not convinced that it’s as big an issue as he thinks it is, considering the fact that Obama cut his political teeth on being whipsawed by the different factions of his own Democratic party here in Illinois (as have, furthermore, the core of his administrative team). Unless and until I see damage worse than what was inflicted upon him here (which basically amounted to nothing more than him having to settle for winning his state senate seat on the second try rather than the first), I have a hard time seeing this as anything other than a lot of hand-wringing for no real reason.
@Demo Woman:
Not only that, she’s implying that there will be insurance purveyors willing to sell policies to these seniors. Maybe on her planet, but not on ours.
valdivia
@Polish the Guillotines:
what you said.
PanAmerican
GOP shit stirrer posing as disillusioned lefty is the Modus operandi. Sussing out the framing and key word salad is about the only value left in Digby’s comment section of “angry, betrayed leftists”.
r€nato
Jaime Lutz:
absolutely. And just because we’re only getting 3/4 of a loaf now, doesn’t mean we can’t get the rest of the loaf later on.
Obama passes this and gets to declare a major legislative victory and then move on to other parts of his agenda (e.g. energy policy/global warming).
He wins in 2012 (and he will, it is his to lose and he won’t screw it up). The ‘trigger’ as conceived presently would come up in 2013. No accident, that year. In his 2nd term, Obama – depending on the size of his victory – could move to enact the remaining work of the health care reform agenda, including a public health care option.
Let’s not lose sight of the fact that we are only wringing our hands over how big of a victory this will be for us. And in time, all the wingnut howling will fade once people see that Obama’s health care reform really has changed things for the better.
Long term, I’d like to see some lefty think tank work on a long-term initiative to disabuse Americans of this fallacious notion that government can’t do anything at all right. This is what the right wants people to think and in large part they have succeeded.
r€nato
@valdivia: I 2nd that.
Polish the Guillotines
@r€nato: Bingo. Especially re. your think-tank proposition.
Bob
@joes527:
Nicely said. There are a lot of really silly extremes on the web and everyone seems to want to call the game early. It really is like they took all the history books off the shelves or something.
Mike in NC
A hack GOP politician with delusions of punditry, quoting dishonest glibertarians on the Op-Ed page of the Wall Street Journal. Who’d have ever imagined such a thing?
valdivia
@r€nato:
And I second what you said.
cyd
@Balconesfault:
It’s not really valid to compare the Chinese government’s actions with the USSR-style command economy. The US government also does a lot of the same things that China does, i.e. industry subsidies and direct public investment. The difference is that (i) China has a lot more money to spend, and the ability to freely spend it without being accused of socialism, and (ii) for various reasons, the US government’s subsidies tend to go less-than-productive causes, like tax breaks for oil companies and big agriculture, and bailouts for banks and failing car companies. (The latter two were arguably short-term necessities, but nevertheless it’s money that could have been productively invested elsewhere.)
Elie
The passive sense of entitlement that I read from many of you is dissapointing and very discouraging.
Having “elected” a President, you just sit back and critique what he is doing or not — the salesman versus the statesman.
Other comments relate to perceptions of failed strategy…not leading off with the hard nosed plan that would immediately blow up the insurance industry… forgetting of course that we need the current structure to get to the new — we need to assure adequate volumes of service providers and other goods — hence the need to also negotiate with “the enemy”, as I guess you would term them. It is just reality and making change in the world we have rather than the world we already wish we were in.
There is no way to get to the vision that we want in one step without dealing with the practical reality of moving a huge and very complex system with economic, technical and social facets – and with many many players. Reality assures that there could never be one, clean, easy step with no room for half steps or even back steps at times. Think of the big things you have done in your life with a measure of uncertainty tied to them and the need to work with others to accomplish what you needed. Was it always straightforward and simple?
Those of you who expected that, were always going to be disappointed. That was YOUR fairytale.
Instead it is messy and hard and incremental rather than the revolution that you somehow thought would happen with all the current institutions, incentives and greed in place while you sat back and sipped tea in your living rooms.
I am truly sorry that so many are already so disappointed. Frankly, I am also sorry and disappointed in us — people smart enough to get how the world actually works and what is necessary to make change of this scope within an already existing system. We should be tougher in both our idealism and pragmatism.
Even Europeans did not have to do that — they built up their evolved systems after World War II shattered most of what they already had. WE have to do it with a very strong and totally intact insurance and business sector who would never allow their assets and resources to be used — just commandeered without a complete revolution OR their consent…hence the need to negotiate with them. Did you think we could just skip that part, really?
So keep on whining and wishing that it was different and that the Messiah will come to make it right for you in one snap…. At least the right wing crazies know they have nothing substantive to offer. Our side has a lot to offer and have. That said, the defeatism and cynicism does nothing but stop motivation and energy — our OWN — for what is ahead. Do you think that the hard part stops when a bill is passed?
Ash Can
@Jaime Lutz:
@r€nato:
et al.:
Exactly, exactly, exactly. By all means, we can bitch, complain, and badger our elected officials. And, really, we should. But throwing in the towel at this stage of the game makes about as much sense as anything that comes out of Sarah Palin’s mouth, and quite possibly less. I remember how health care reform crashed and burned under the Clinton Administration, and so does Barack Obama. What gets done this time around will feature provisions that we’ll be pissing and moaning about, that’s a given. But, by God almighty, something’s going to get done, and I’ve seen NO evidence to make me reasonably fear that it will be worse than doing nothing. I’d expect Mitch McConnell to get a sex-change operation and retire from Congress to run a beauty parlor in Knoxville before I’d expect Barack Obama to sign off on a bill requiring lower-middle-class citizens to buy health insurance that they can’t afford and/or that doesn’t give them the coverage they need. Obama’s stated goals — which he reiterates on a regular basis — don’t look anything like that, and I need to see an awful lot of evidence to the contrary to convince me otherwise.
Shell
If you’ve got an extra $25,000 lying around, you can bid on a dinner with Sarah Palin and hubby. That’s the starting bid on the eBay auction. At least it’s for charity. Too bad there are no takers yet.
Ash Can
@Shell: What’s the charity? Palin’s summer home’s clothes closet?
DZ
Well, most of the article is fine, but Friedman always loses me with his open borders crap for well educated foreigners. He is an open advocate of offshoring and endless H1B visas. He does not understand that these things destroy well-paid American jobs, sabotage the labor market and that there are no good jobs being created to replace them.
Elie
Polish the Guillotines:
what you say. Also.
62across
If you were paying attention during the primaries and general election last year, you should know two things.
One, Obama is governing the way he said he would. Over and over, he said people could agree without being disagreeable and that he believed in common ground between the left and right. These are core beliefs he has held for a long time. They were the thesis of his big convention speech in 1984! Even though the right is acting in bad faith now, he is holding to those core beliefs. I don’t see how anyone can be surprised that he hasn’t given up on these beliefs after such a short time.
Two, and more importantly, Obama doesn’t give a damn about the latest news cycle. He has made it clear that he thinks and acts over the long term. His campaign demonstrated that and the results vindicated his strategy. I don’t buy the rope-a-dope stuff either, but the long game is not the same thing. He has decided that he will be judged by the results of his whole term and if successful, he will get a second term which he will approach in the same long term fashion.
Wile E. Quixote
@Lola
I think that liberals need to stop being such chickenshit punk-ass bitches. Most of the country doesn’t think the way conservatives do, we had six years of a Republican administration, Congress and Supreme Court, six years in which abortion could have been banned. Was it? No. George W. Bush tried to privatize Social Security back in 2005, how well did that work out? Remember Terry Schiavo? Most Americans do with great disgust. Despite what the Republicans say most Americans don’t live in Mayberry, R.F.D.
I think the reason why liberals lose isn’t because they overestimate their support, it’s because they’re fucking weaklings who refuse to articulate and defend their core beliefs. There’s a difference between being a stupidly arrogant batshit insane winger and standing up for yourself and what you believe in and unfortunately most liberals are incapable of doing the latter. Americans hate losers, pussies and weaklings, the Republican party, which is composed of all three (Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, Mike Huckabee, etc) has managed to convince Americans that they’re tough and principled and that the pussies, losers and weaklings are all Democrats because Democrats won’t stand up for themselves.
I didn’t like a lot of Ted Kennedy’s political positions, and I despise the Kennedy family because of all of the lies and bullshit, which they’ve massively contributed to, surrounding them. I will give Ted Kennedy this, he didn’t back down, he took stands on controversial bills such as ENDA and on issues such as “Don’t ask, don’t tell” and gay marriage and stuck by them, regardless of the political cost. Kennedy probably could have ignored gay rights issues, in fact doing so would have made his life easier, and despite the liberal nature of Massachusetts politics he did face some serious challengers for his seat, but he didn’t. He was supporting ENDA back in the early 1990s. I remember calling his office in 1996 and thanked him for voting against DOMA because my senator, Patty Murray, a corrupt money sucking whore who is Sarah Palin stupid, decided that she needed to solidify her support with Washington’s bigots, and voted for it.
Imagine what the 2008 elections would have been like if the Democratic party leadership had said “Americans as a group are hesitant about change”, we need to make sure that we don’t go too far, so we should discourage Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama from running because Americans aren’t ready for a president who isn’t a white male, so let’s put all of our resources into getting the nomination for John Edwards. Imagine what America would be like if Lyndon Johnson had your attitude; if he had gone to Martin Luther King in 1964 and said “we shouldn’t over estimate our support” and had not pushed for Title II and III in the 1964 Civil Rights act. Yeah, that’s a real pretty picture.
Polish the Guillotines
@Elie: Likewise.
DZ
@Ash Can:
Insurance companies will sell policies to seniors if they got Medicare vouchers – for the same benefits, twice the value of the voucher. For just the voucher, half the benefits.
Warren Terra
@ Blue Raven, #6
I believe that Murdoch’s famous “page six girls” were young women who went to parties and collected the most salacious and borderline-slanderous of gossip for the paper, possibly using unethical (or at the least uninhibited) means to do so.
You’re thinking, I think, of the Page Three girls.
gwangung
@Ash Can:
Fuck, YES.
DOUBLE FUCK, YES.
Politics, people.
If you thought progressive ideas would take over Washington DC by storm and just roll over the opposition, and the right wing would just give up without a fight, then you’re as mind-numbingly stupid as the wingnuts.
And we’d deserve the shit sandwich that’ll result if we give up.
Sentient Puddle
@Shell: Keith Olbermann attempted to place a bid last night. Hilarity would ensue if he actually won it.
The bid didn’t go through, though. Bidders need to get pre-approval. That might also be why there are still zero bids.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@JHF:
Spoken like somebody who doesn’t know jack about the Lincoln administration or the Civil War. Go look up the first 8 months of Lincoln’s 1st term and tell me how well it was going, circa Sept 1861. Were the slaves freed yet? War going well? How about those civil liberties? Political support holding firm? Getting along well with Congress? Was the press being respectful and supportive?
Perhaps a wiser choice of counterexample might be in order.
Elie
WILE E. Quixote
I totally agree that we should not set our vision or goals to just the low and practically achievable. Goals and visions are about dreaming and aspiring.
I don’t confuse goal setting and visioning with the hard nosed practicality of implementing those dreams and visions. That is where keeping a sense of the dreams while dealing with reality and the necessity to negotiate with others to get to where you want –is so difficult.
The pure idealists would have that you just get what you want by? 1) pure power/coercion 2) having everyone already think like you or 3) convincing them to think like you or 4) negotiating or comprimising but keeping the goal in mind — working towards it in a series of steps.
I think that many folks like solutions 1 through 3 but not so much 4 — which is part of the give and take you would expect in a democracy built on the presumed equality of everyone and therefore the need for building consensus.
Lots of people who say they believe in equality and rights of everyone to their opinion and beliefs, don’t really (including me sometimes). But THAT is the heart of a representative democracy.
Emotionally and spiritually, we all want to be moved to scream our ideals from the top of our lungs and to have the earth move in response. The hard truth though, as every hero from Martin Luther King to Mother Theresa knew is that its a lot of small, daily hard tasks and an attitude of positivity in the face of adversity and great suffering — of having the stuff for the climb, rather than the celebration at the summit.
Not everyone that signed up to join the civil rights movement in the 60’s necessarily thought that they might have to give up their lives — but people did. No one really understood what it would mean to be spit upon, have dogs attack you or to be knocked down with billy clubs and fire hoses. They only understood that what they wanted was going to require dedication and toughness and resolve and dammit, they were going to stand up to it.
We have to work for this. All of us. We have to push Obama, we have to push our congress and we have to push ourselves and not give in to easy self criticism and selfish cynicism.
As Martin Luther King said when he rhetorically asked in a speech to how long it would take to get to the promised land: “How Long?” … “Not Long”… not because it would take time in a temporal sense, but because no matter HOW long, we were in for it, we were good for it and we would not give up — so it was “NOT LONG”…
Shawn in ShowMe
Well, then you would be dealing in cold hard facts. Romantic misremembering of times long ago offers refuge to the disillusioned.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Polish the Guillotines:
You took the words right out of my mouth. Add me to the ‘amen chorus’.
Look folks, this isn’t that complicated. Our system of government broke down – almost completely. We went from having three branches to effectively only having one branch of govt – the executive. Congress right now is like a stroke victim in occupational therapy – stop blaming the doctor for making them fall down when they try to walk again. It’s part of the process. It will get better if you push hard on your Congresscritter to do their damn job and do it right for a change. Stop expecting the President to do that for you. It isn’t his job, it’s your job.
I for one thought that idea came through loud and clear during Obama’s primary campaign – this isn’t about him getting to the WH and acting like Santa Claus to shower us with goodies from the liberal North Pole (where progressive elves like Erza Klein and Glenn Greenwald make toys for all the good little girls and boys), and stopping at the Island of Misfit Policy Proposals to pick up Single Payer for a ride in his magic sleigh. It is about the us putting down the TV remote and the video game console, and yes, the computer keyboard, and getting off of our asses and changing the govt. from below. Why are we concentrating all of our fire on the WH when there are 500+ different targets out there begging for attention?
Elie
@ 74 –
You get it, Polish the Guillotines gets it. Others get it too — but not everyone does unfortunately.
We have to keep saying, pointing it out, rinse, repeat.
We also have to change, as you say, from passive recipients of largesse to activated and empowered citizens…
In time, in time.
thanks for your excellent comment
Wile E. Quixote
@Shell
Only 25K? I’ll go for that? I’ll need someone to help me gut and clean them after I’ve cut their throats and bled them out (I’m just going to dump the blood, I think that blood sausage is disgusting) but that’s going to be some fine eating. Oh wait, it’s $25K for a dinner *with* them and not for a dinner *of* them? Never mind.
Mayur
@Wile E. Quixote: Dude, she’s probably got CJD. Or rabies. Or both.
Wile E. Quixote
@Mayur
I thought that you were only at risk for CJD if you ate an animal’s brains, and since we’re talking about Sarah Palin here…