Yet another reason I have no interest in organized religion- this long and tedious discussion at the American Spectator examining whether or not Ted Kennedy was a good Catholic. Religion isn’t so much about God and spirituality and your fellow man for these wankers, it is just another competition and another way to exert control over people.
Also, so much for Matthew 7.
Dreggas
No shit sherlock. Organized religion has, and for the most part, will always be about control. Hell was an invention to scare sheople into obeying their betters, in this case the church, and fattening church coffers. This was especially true during the middle ages which is where the modern concepts of heaven and hell actually come from.
I highly suggest reading The Medieval Underworld for a good take on where this stuff got its start. Let’s also not forget that the bible in its current form was compiled by men more interested in keeping “the flock” in line and paying homage to the church vs. being compiled by people who cared about most of its tenets.
3D
I agree with the spirit of your post, but really, the wankers who take the most negative interpretation of the Bible are usually right. The people who take the watered down, 21st-century friendly interpretation of it are the ones who are missing the point. They’re smart enough to know better, but can’t let go of their childhood delusions.
The Bible is mean, nasty and disgusting. It’s written by wankers, for wankers.
freelancer
Careful, Cole
You just might get WATB Bill Donohue off of his fainting couch.
Sentient Puddle
Let me guess…about half the oxygen in the discussion is sucked up by the “He was pro-choice, so he was a bad Catholic!” line of attack.
Many religious discussions piss me off too, but even when I suck it up and take a gander, what really pisses me off is when some asshole decides that abortion is the only issue that matters in all of religion, and he’ll be damned if anyone wants to talk about anything else.
Alan
Definitely the thread for this NSFW video. :) Found via Pharyngula.
tim
AMEN.
Shinobi
Penn And Teller just took on the Catholic church in their season finale. Perhaps people are feeling a little sensitive.
GReynoldsCT00
Religion is just another form of politics. I grew up in the Catholic Church. I resigned. Had enough of weekly scoldings from fire and brimstone priests and the requests for money, money, money…. it is ALL about control.
joes527
@Sentient Puddle: It is actually pretty amazing … he trots out that Kennedy had an annulment.
Hey, annulment is good enough for Newt and even Randall fucking Terry. But somehow it is a black mark against Kennedy.
me
Our Lady of Perpetual Outrage wants me to donate to Spectator.org. I’d rather not.
GReynoldsCT00
@joes527:
and you can only get an annulment if you can afford it…
Emily's Forests
Y’know, to a certain extent I understand the grumbling–the institutional church is a disaster on almost every front–but let’s face it, Ted Kennedy took the Gospels seriously, and his passion for helping people screwed over by our society grew directly out of that (in his own words, actually–someone related a story about So why are you so interested in helping the poor, and Kennedy looked at him like he’d grown an extra head and asked “Have you ever read the Gospels?”). When religion “works” (and I admit it doesn’t very often), it can be a beautiful, beautiful thing. As a deeply frustrated feminist Catholic who is used to being embarrassed by Catholic public figures, I am thrilled to pieces that Ted Kennedy identified himself as a Catholic and identified his passion for justice as part of his religious heritage.
forked tongue
Every time I return to the Sermon on the Mount, I find a new reason to think it’s not all that. I’ve long known that most of its length is not given over to all the nicey-nice apothegms that people like to quote, but to declaiming that if you don’t believe in Me, you’re fucked. Clicking on the link, I notice that everybody’s favorite Jesus-was-a-good-guy quote, the Golden Rule, is sandwiched in this version between calling his listeners “evil” and reminding them that the GR is “the law and the prophets,” not a sane rule for living or an occasion for self-reflection.
Joshua Norton
Organized religion has merely the words of man being used to exert control over others. While people like St. Paul, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, et al. may have had interesting things to say about religion, their works are nothing more than a thesis of their own beliefs, not the word of God. But people have somehow managed to jumble everything together and pretend it’s all somehow divinely inspired and must be adhered to under penalty of eternal damnation (another man made concept).
One hundred years ago, the pope declared that democracy and voting was a sin because Rome was taken by Italian forces and became the capital of Italy. Later on, another pope declared that public education was a sin in order to force American catholics to pay for parochial schools. The cafeteria christians blow hot and cold as to what upsets them in any given generation.
MikeJ
I like Matthew 6 as much as 7. That chapter tells people that if they want to pray they shouldn’t do it in public but instead lock themselves alone in a closet.
gizmo
I wonder if the nitwits over at the American Spectator have ever paused to think about the hilarious nature of the name for their publication? A “spectator” is someone who is standing on the sidelines, watching others do the real work….
GregB
All of the religions create pompous dickwads who feel they know how to run the world.
Just listen to the lunatic ramblings of that minister in Arizona praying for President Obama to die of cancer or those vile sociopaths at Westborough Baptist making a mockery of funerals or the louts Hagee, Robertson and Perkins.
All of them are bitter, judgmental, vindictive crumb bums.
-G
HyperIon
The article is also in the vein of Douhat’s latest editorial. The NYTimes commenters are onto him. But no one ever says “Fuck”. Sort of refreshing.
Elizabeth Lyne
For people who believe that if you aren’t their religion, you’re going to hell, etc…. it’s just another way for them to discriminate against others, another way for them to feel superior and above others.
Sentient Puddle
@joes527: OK, and that doesn’t make any sense. An annulment in the Catholic church is basically saying “OK, so that marriage didn’t count, you’re free to marry again.” If you get a divorce, then the proper thing to do in the eyes of the church is to either get that annulment or never marry again.
Whoever that is arguing that needs to lrn2theology.
Roger Moore
@3D:
This. One of the things I learned by reading the Bible from cover to cover is that it’s a sick, sick book. The parts about being nice to people and helping the needy are the minority. There’s a lot more in there about killing your enemies to the last child and God letting Israel’s enemies overrun the country with fire and the sword because people practice idolatry. When the wingnuts talk about the Bible supporting their views, they’re mostly right; there’s about 10 parts of wingnut for every part of DFH.
Michael
The way I look at it with these assholes is that if you take the fevered pronunciations of the bronze age semi-literate tribal goatherd apocalyptic death cult as true, then the theology of the Pharisees inexplicably won.
kay
@Emily’s Forests:
Good post. I enjoyed reading it.
The older I get the more I admire plain persistence. I watched Kennedy completely losing his shit on the Senate floor over the fact that he had been trying to raise the minimum wage 2 dollars for ten years, and felt sympathy, but then real admiration.
Ten years, 2 dollars. “What do you WANT!?”, he was yelling, at the opposition. It’s just such a human reaction, until you think about how long ten years is. Then it’s amazing.
asiangrrlMN
I don’t know what bothers me more. The fact that I knew immediately what Bible verse Cole was quoting or the fact that I had the immediate instinct to click on the link to the American Spectator for the express purpose of atonement for some nebulous sins. I skimmed Douthat this morning for the same reason, and I was immediately filled with a deep self-loathing. Now I know how the Chunkier Reese Witherspoon feels.
To counterbalance all that crap, I give you Marvin Gaye:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVTN5o9Kgu8&NR=1&feature=fvwp
It’s tangentially relevant.
forked tongue
Randolph Churchill’s comment on reading the whole book cover-to-cover was: “I never realized God was such a shit.”
But I think most people do realize that there’s a lot of evil stuff in there–hence joking about stuff like the prohibition on eating shrimp or on sitting in a chair that’s been used by a menstruating woman isn’t all that satisfying in the long run. What I wish more people would do is take a hard look at the Gospels and see whether they’ve really gotten a true impression of what a right-on dude Jeebus was.
BombIranForChrist
For some Christians, there’s no substantive difference between the reason they go to church and the reason they buy a bright yellow Hummer.
Joshua Norton
The whole problem with the bible is that the christianists don’t read it for spiritual guidance, they read it looking for loopholes.
“I may talk and think like a bigot, but here’s 2 lines in the bible that I’ve twisted to mean that you’re a sinner, so it’s ok”.
“Wankers” doesn’t even begin to cover it.
freelancer
BOOM:
http://blevkog.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/political-pictures-becky-fisher-word-christ.jpg
DougJ
The American Spectator likes to watch. And the Church considers that sin.
Tonal Crow
@MikeJ:
That’s a good one; Christianists hate that scripture:
…5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
But even better is an openminded reading of the book of Job. Pay special attention to the beginning, in which “God” and “Satan” one-up each other about Job and strike a wager on his life (and, implicitly, upon those of many innocent bystanders). Then look at the end, where “God” gives Job a new wife and new children (and new asses), and he lives happily every after. Ha!
SiubhanDuinne
This is just WAAAAAY O/T, but I feel the need to say why Tweety makes me crazy. He starts his show today talking about Dick Cheeeeney — “that’s how you pronounce it, Cheeeeney, Cheeeeney is the correct pronunciation, I’ve always said Cheeeeney and I always will and nobody can make me say Chainey because it’s Cheeeeney and shut up” and I just want John to punch him in the neck because he’s being such a twat. Then 5 minutes later he totally takes out that ass Duncan Hunter and I want to kiss him.
This explains why I rarely watch Hardball.
Ejoiner
I’ll see your Matthew 7 and raise you a Romans 14:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014&version=NIV
Never heard it preached on and it pretty much drives a stake through all religious disagreements. Plus its written by that conservative favorite Paul. Well, only your favorite when they’re trying to slap down gays and women.
Warren Terra
@ forked tongue, #24
Was that the real Randolph, the father of Winston, the guy who rocketed nearly to the top of British politics before his death from syphilis prevented his return from an ill-judged attempt at grandstanding that resulted in (otherwise likely temporary) career disaster? Or was it the other Randolph, the alcoholic son of Winson who was iirc a newspaper editor, and who Martin Gilbert insists really did write the first couple of volumes despite what everyone alleges?
Less trivially, and more thoughtfully, one thing I’ve always liked about my own (Reform Jewish, now Atheist) religious tradition is that there’s no pressure to believe that God is a particularly good or admirable being – he’s just the one who sets the rules, for better or for worse, and whole chunks of Genesis are about God screwing up in one way or another. And, of course, other similarly old religions are full of gods who are shits. The idea that God is supposed to be wonderful is at least in part a Christian invention; it goes along with the similarly recent idea of proselytising (in the years before its was done at sword-point), in which you try to convince people that a religion is something they should join and celebrate, rather than a simple fact of life.
AnotherBruce
I think part of the reason I am so repelled by religion is that I look at the fundamentalists, Taliban and other fanatically religious assholes and think that there is no way that I would want to spend five minutes, much less eternity with these ugly freaks.
Brachiator
Yeah, but what I want to know is what kind of coffee Kennedy preferred.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Roger Moore:
Well duh – where do you think they got the “conservatism cannot fail, it can only be failed” bit from? Here’s the early history of organized religion in a nutshell:
[a long time ago in an agriculturally productive but semi-arid land with significant rainfall volatility]:
Priest to people: The sky man who gives us all good things will reward you with rain for your crops if you do what I say and give me your food.
People: Cool – we need lots of rain for our crops or we will all starve. Here, take our surplus food, we don’t mind semi-starvation now if we will be fed with abundance later.
[sometime later, after many days and little rain]
People: Hey Priest, where are those rains you promised us? Your sky man sucks a big bag of rocks.
Priest: Blasphemous fools! The rains did not come because you are not worthy. This time you have to give me more food, plus all of your gold and the good looking women too. Otherwise angry sky man will hate on your sorry asses and you will all die!
[two different scenarios play out after this. Either the rains come, vindicating the Priest and causing the people to grovel in the dirt with fear and relief that they did just as he said, or the rains don’t come and everybody starves, proving that the Priest was right, the People weren’t worthy so God hated on their sorry asses just like they deserved – maybe they should have listened to the Priest while they had the chance.]
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Comrade Kevin
@gizmo:
I’m pretty sure it’s called the American Spectator because they ripped their name off from the Britsh magazine the Spectator, and they thought it would give them a veneer of intellect.
“If there is a God, he is a malign thug” – Mark Twain
Kennedy
Here’s another great reason to love religion:
Arizona Pastor Steven Anderson has received national attention for dedicating an entire sermon to “Why I hate Barack Obama,” and for having a parishioner who brought an AR-15 to a protest outside a speech delivered by President Obama. Calling Obama a “socialist devil” and a “murderer,” Anderson declared, “I’m not gonna pray for his good. I’m going to pray that he dies and goes to hell.” A CNN analyst said last week Secret Service agents had likely visited Anderson because of the content of his sermons. In the face of all the controversy, Anderson decided not to apologize or retract his remarks, but rather, he escalated his rhetoric yesterday:
I hope that God strikes Obama with brain cancer so he can die like Ted Kennedy. You know, and I hope it happens today.
I hear that the above is consistent with the teachings of Christ. Also.
Praise the Lord and pass the stupid.
Kennedy
Fail. I screwed up the bolding and made it look like I was the one who said the tail end of the quote. WTB edit comment function.
Warren Terra
My perspective is someone that of an outsider – I’m an Atheist with Reform Jewish roots – but who would want to be a good Catholic these days?
When I was a kid in the 80s in Seattle, the Catholic church looked like a great thing, a real force for good. When you thought about the Church and public life, you thought about the martyred Bobby Kennedy, the martyred Archbishop Romero, and the amazingly-not-martyred Cesar Chavez. You thought about Vatican II and about the (then still extant) Liberation Theology. In popular culture, the Catholic church was represented by the saintly, tolerant Father Mulcahy of M-A-S-H, still in reruns in prime time on local stations. Within the US and in real life, the Church was integral to the Sanctuary movement, bearing powerful witness to our government’s support for mass murder in Central America. I suppose the Church was probably a strong critic of abortion (and even birth control) even then, but they weren’t at the forefront of the campaign, the nutter evangelists of Operation Rescue were; the Catholic Church seemed instead to spend its time worrying instead about the sick and the homeless. In Seattle, in particular, the Archbishop was a truly great man and a proud liberal, Raymond Hunthausen.
Since that time, we’ve had three decades of John Paul II and his right-hand man and successor, the former Joseph Ratzinger. Ratzinger, in his role as Chief Inquisitor, responded to Hunthausen’s acceptance of homosexual parishioners by removing Hunthausen from office and sending him to a monastery in Montana, where he’s spent the last twenty years. And now the Church, which, especially here in America, seems to be profoundly disinterested in poverty, war, or human rights, and to be entirely defined by the issue of abortion – seems to be adopting yet other positions associated with the wingers, such as on health care.
I don’t hold anyone’s Catholic faith against them. But I deeply wonder about anyone who would convert to Catholicism in recent years, especially in America, and the label of “bad Catholic” does not seem to me to be in the slightest a criticism given the current state of the Church.
Makewi
ReligionGovernment health care isn’t so much aboutGod and spiritualityyour health and your fellow man for these wankers, it is just another competition and another way to exert control over people.FTFY.
asiangrrlMN
@DougJ: Ooooh, kinnnnky! I like the way your mind thinks, DougJ!
Mike
Let’s not forget Matthew 25:31-46, which was the Gospel reading at Teddy’s funeral. I defy anyone to reread it and honestly argue that he was a bad Christian.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
When my ears hear “I’m a born-again Christian” something in my mind translates it to “I’m a low-grade con artist.”
There are some people who come across as genuine, like Jimmy Carter, but they are few and far between.
asiangrrlMN
@Mike: Which, ironically is the perfect riposte to someone who shall remain nameless. Great timing.
Bob (Not B.o.B.)
@BombIranForChrist:
Joey Maloney
Closet, eh? So do we have a new euphemism, a companion for hiking the Appalachian Trail?
“Hey, did you you know Mark Foley? I hear he got caught praying with Matthew.
Joey Maloney
…close quote. EDIT FUNCTION WHERE ARE YOU???
Ash
Not even the motherfucking Pope is a good Catholic. Who cares.
Mnemosyne
I have to agree with Anne Lamott, who is herself a pretty strong Christian: “You know you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that He hates all the same people you do.”
Mark S.
@Mnemosyne:
Wow, that’s a good one!
Kennedy
Also, has anyone seen the documentary Jesus Camp? That lady in the picture above is the star of the documentary, of sorts, and she is batshit insane. She hosts little brainwashing camps for kids to indoctrinate them at an early age and tells them shit like how Harry Potter would have been stoned or burned at the stake in Jesus’ time.
Roger Moore
@Mike:
Sadly, the first place I found that discussed that passage presented an out for people who want to diss Kennedy. They argued that the part where Jesus talked about helping the least of his brothers, he meant only Christians who were trying to spread the Gospel:
That’s the problem with quoting the bible. A sufficiently dedicated wingnut can read into it whatever crazy belief he wants.
Woody
NSFW: Louis CK on Catholicism…
A total hoot…
Skepticat
“Good Catholic” is an oxymoron all too frequently.
Ash
@Kennedy: Jesus Camp was terrifying to watch. Those poor children. Thankfully they’ve shut that place down.
Comrade Jake
The quote I always liked is something to the effect of “Christian conservatives will tell you that they *believe in* Jesus Christ. But they certainly don’t act like they *believe* Jesus Christ.”
Kirk Spencer
@Ejoiner: Sadly, you’re misreading it. It wildly supports the zealot philosophy. Paraphrasing the last half:
By the way, my favorite game to play with the literalists is to ask them how Judas died, and who paid for the “field of blood”. (Matthew 27 vs Acts I.) Follow by asking which book, then, is falsely included in the Bible.
cleek
@Mnemosyne: +5 awesome.
geg6
I have come to thew conclusion that, with the exception of a few people in all of history such as Jimmy Carter and that Jewish dude named Jesus, religion is the source of all the evil in our world. This insight came to me at a mass I was forced to attend by my mother that was celebrated by a priest who was later a figure in the molestation scandal. I didn’t know it then, but I knew boys at the Catholic high school at which he was principal hated him for some reason. I became an atheist at about 14 or 15. And before that, I was at best agnostic. Drove my devout Irish Catholic mother crazy. Anyone who claims religion is some sort of inborn thing that all humans crave, I’m your Exhibit A that it isn’t true. I questioned the bullshit from the minute they shoved it in my face as a toddler. I don’t mean to insult anyone, but I see religion as being, usually, for those who are weak of personality or who like to be told what to do or who are afraid to make decisions. I don’t need other people to tell me right from wrong or how to live a fulfilling life. You should learn that all on your own. That’s the whole point of life. Of course there exceptions to this, as there are to every generalization, and some religions are less evil than others. But I think anyone who puts a lot of time, money, and effort into being religious is wasting time, money, and effort that could be used for something productive.
freelancer
@geg6:
I’m inclined to agree with most of what you’re saying, however, even as a fellow atheist, I can’t accept your premise completely. Greed is something in human beings that exists even outside of religion, just look at Objectivism. Rand was a militant atheist.
There are very few people in the world today worshiping Poseidon and Zeus (they are out there) and now texts that are referential to those gods are considered ancient literature. Christians are super-paranoid about the New Age movement driving them into irrelevancy. Mankind as a whole, never seems to abandon irrationality, it’s just that most of us move on to find the same bullshit in a differently-shaped bottle.
Splitting Image
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:
“When I hear a man is religious, I conclude that he is a rascal, although I have known some instances of very good men being religious.” – David Hume.
Great minds, etc.
freelancer
@Splitting Image:
“When I became convinced that the Universe is natural – that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, of the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts, and bars, and manacles became dust.”
—Robert Ingersoll
Kyle
My definition of religious faith (which is in keeping with the photo on this post):
The sincere belief that there is a god who hates the same people you do.
Augustine
@Joshua Norton:
my beliefs are THE CITY OF GOD, you d****d apostate, you!
oh, and i have some indulgences to sell you
freelancer
@Augustine:
Patton Oswald, Sky Cake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w
The cake is a lie!
GlenInBrooklyn
I find that being an atheist uncomplicates things considerably. But then, so do certain kinds of theism, too; just in more complicated and check-book intensive kinds of ways.
I like simple things.
Mnemosyne
@Warren Terra:
We were lucky enough in Chicago to have Joseph Bernadin, who was the first Catholic archbishop to insist that AIDS patients be cared for and opened one of the first Catholic facilities to do so. He also implemented one of the first anti-abuse policies, which means that Chicago didn’t have the same kind of scandals that Boston or Los Angeles have had.
Damn, I miss him. He was a genuinely good man.
Augustine
@freelancer:
They be pie in da sky when you die
http://folkarchive.de/pie.html
John Tetzel
@Augustine: Mine are cheaper!
Roger Moore
@Kirk Spencer:
Ask them about Jesus’ genealogy. Matthew and Luke can’t even agree about who Jesus’ grandfather was. There are plenty of other inconsistencies you can point out if you particularly feel like it, but it doesn’t really matter. Their belief in biblical literalism is based on faith, not evidence, so it can only be shaken by loss of faith, not countervailing evidence.
Comrade Darkness
@freelancer: Nice quote. That’s about how I felt at 14 or so. Although the process takes a year or so, so it’s not so startling as that.
stickler
Hah! Tetzel rises from the grave to comment at Balloon Juice!
“Soon as the coin in the collection cup rings, up to heaven the soul springs…”
Redshirt
I’ve been getting into Cosmology and Physics of late (as a way lay person), and it all makes me feel spiritual, holy. We are part and parcel of this amazing tapestry we call life. Life is crazy. Matter, energy, black holes, all of it. It’s all incredible that we advanced monkies are in space. It blows me away to consider that the iron in our blood literally was formed in an exploding star, the same exploded star that gave us pretty much every heavy mineral. Diamonds too. Thank you, long dead star!
What is hocus-pocus bogeyman Christianity compared to all that? It pales.
I don’t have the greatest family in the world (who does?), but I praise FSM that almost the entirety of it, from aunts and uncles and brothers and sisters, step and half and other wacky combos, there’s almost a complete lack of religion. Nothing – no talk of religion, no fake going to church, even on the big days, no bibles, no prayers, nothing. But overall, the entire family is good people, with only a few petty criminals as the worst of the lot. Not a bad outcome for any family I’d say.
Anyways, science. We just got to figure out a way to get the rubes to believe in science as a faith. Scientology is a “good” idea…. but it’s lacking something, oh I don’t know….
Desert Rat
@HyperIon:
Comment moderation will do that for you.
Desert Rat
@Roger Moore:
As I explain patiently to those willing to listen, a cover to cover reading of the Bible will do more to lessen your belief in God than anything else.
I did it at age 12, and haven’t believed a word of it since.
HRA
Clearly, a lot of people have no understanding of the Catholic faith when they pick at the failings of Ted Kennedy. Although it is not screamed at or yelled at to the rooftops, Catholics are sinners who are given the chance to redeem themselves weekly. It’s called confession and penance.
Ted Kennedy was forgiven for his sins. What those who are going over the top now do not understand is his faith sustained him over all the woes he inherited over all those years and from it came the good he did for those known as the least of us.
I think those who are using his demise to be critical are afraid of his power even from the grave.
toujoursdan
Progressive (gay) Episcopalian here.
Most mainline Protestants certainly don’t believe that the Bible was dictated by God, but was written by fallible human beings earnestly seeking God and writing out of their experience. We also know that is the product of different culture and different time and needs to be read with that in mind. The Bible traces an evolution from a belief by the Hebrews that Yahweh was their tribal god fighting other tribal gods, but over the 1500 year span the Bible was written, came to realize that Yahweh was a God of love for all humanity. So you have to read the “nasty” bits with that in mind. They reflected that less mature understanding of God in Hebrew thought. No mainline Protestant believes every verse in the Bible carries equal weight to every other verse.
All that said there are some incredibly beautiful passages in Scripture, ones that challenged me me to become a progressive and eventually a (Swedish style) socialist. From Matt 5
38You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43″You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you only love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be compassionate, therefore, as your heavenly Father is compassionate.”
and…
45″He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
Personally, I think that religion and the Bible itself have little to do with the busybody Christian crowd. The country is transitioning from a white Christian society to a multicultural multiracial multifaith society and some are afraid of losing control and want to turn back the clock to the 1950s. Religion is an effective tool to do that. But the anxiety is societal not religious.
toujoursdan
@Redshirt:
I’ve been getting into Cosmology and Physics of late (as a way lay person), and it all makes me feel spiritual, holy. We are part and parcel of this amazing tapestry we call life. Life is crazy. Matter, energy, black holes, all of it. It’s all incredible that we advanced monkies are in space. It blows me away to consider that the iron in our blood literally was formed in an exploding star, the same exploded star that gave us pretty much every heavy mineral. Diamonds too. Thank you, long dead star!
What is hocus-pocus bogeyman Christianity compared to all that? It pales.
Most mainstream Christians have no trouble at all accepting all of this. I am Carl Sagan/Stephen Hawking space geek myself, as are many of my Episcopalian friends.
hamletta
@toujoursdan:
This is most certainly true. My (ELCA Lutheran) congregation includes quite a few scientists, even a particle physicist.
When I first read about the exploding star, my first thought was: “My God! We’re full of stars!”
I still think God’s behind it all, but I’ll damned if I know how. And I think anyone who says he does know is full of shit.
Jacquelyn
There are so many responses colliding in my brain that I’m at risk for whiplash!
just
OK. I’m a recovering Catholic (i.e. I recognized the patriarchy of the Roman Church for what it was at age 14 and ran like hell to agnosticism – pun intended). However, I remember ‘confession’ being called the Sacrament of Reconciliation…as in reconciling with those against whom I have sinned and reconciling with God through penance. So, it wearies me in the extreme that any other human being would presume to determine who has achieved (for lack of a better word) reconciliation or who is damned to having their life be about the worst thing they ever did.
(TANGENT ALERT: When I was in college – I went to a Catholic college BTW – JP2 made it plain that anyone who even thought abortion was ok in any circumstance should be excommunicated. In case I was uncertain in any way at that point in my life, that edict solidified my position.)
So, here we are in 2009 reading again the commentary from those on the far right of the Church: and now their condemnation of the late Ted Kennedy. The worst thing he did in his life, IMHO, was not call the authorities the night Mary Jo died. In their commentary is also the fact that Kennedy was Pro-Choice. He was also Pro-Insurance-Coverage-for-All. Wait, he was also for Pro-equality for the poor, the underprivileged, the sexes, the sexual identities, the races, … did I miss many?
I listened to Kennedy’s parish priest and the other concelebrants during his funeral, and I didn’t hear a bunch of bluster about a man who had abandoned his faith. Instead, I heard them celebrate a man with imperfections; a man who continued to seek grace within his faith and with his god; a man who prayed, not only in the last weeks of his life but throughout his life. Mostly, I heard them celebrate a man who managed to retain and enhance his faith in a country that ostensibly separates Church and State. He served both to the best of his abilities. Wasn’t it Jesus who asked those around him, those without sin, to cast the first stone at the whore?
Jacquelyn
That hanging “JUST” was supposed to say, “b r e a t h e” just “b r e a t h e”
satby
What HRA, toujoursdan and Jacquelyn said….
“religious” can include the rightwing authoritarian crowd and the left wing liberation theology crowd. Both kinds of person might identify their religion as the prime motivation in their lives, but the outcomes couldn’t be more different.
And by their works shall you know them.
BC
I keep asking the Washington Post reporters during the political chat why no reporter is going to our religious leaders for their take on this torture issue. I haven’t read or heard anything from anyone – Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Native American Indigenous Sprituality, etc. – on how the religious leaders view the torture debate. It’s like religion is only concerned with abortion and the rest of the issues are secular and don’t have any religious elements at all.
Rebecca
I was raised Catholic and Teddy Kennedy–and the rest of the Kennedy family–are what I consider to be AWESOME Catholics. Yeah, he fucked up in some ways with the drinking and the sex, but that’s what confession is for. The important thing is that he cared for and fought for the poor and sick of this world. That’s what matters.