Too funny:
U.S. Rep. Lynn Jenkins told a recent gathering in northeast Kansas that the Republican Party is looking for a “great white hope” to help stop the political agenda of the Democratic party and President Barack Obama.
Because, you know, the President is BLACK.
Jack T.
This is obviously a job for White Shadow.
gnomedad
This is why Goopers lie all the time; telling the truth just causes trouble.
Morbo
I think it showed tremendous restraint that she avoided any form of the phrase “knock out.”
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
And there on the sidebar is the ad claiming “Democrats are Scared” from the GOPAC.
BR
http://digg.com/politics/GOP_Congresswoman_Party_Looking_For_Great_White_Hope
Just Some Fuckhead
Have Republicans considered placing a burning cross on the White House lawn in the middle of the night? That might work.
Cat Lady
Why do they even bother sort of apologizing when they get caught saying what they mean? Cut the kabuki crap, just call him a n****r and get it over with already.
JGabriel
Jeepers. I’m reminded of the blogger or columnist, forget who, that once said they were voting for George Bush because “you know he’ll watch and protect your backside”.
Talk about fear of “teh ghey”. And fear of the “teh black”.
GOPer’s are really very strange people.
.
gnomedad
OT, some commenter here got his wish: Extenze is advertising on Glenn Beck.
SGEW
Well, at least she’s being honest about it.
For those that aren’t familiar, here are a few wikis [here and here] about the background of the phrase. Key quote:
Charming.
Face
This is so stupid. The expression is “great white hope”, and outside of this hyper-sensititve political quagmire we’re in, nobody would have even noticed. It’s a friggin harmless idiom. Ding her points for not recognizing the toxic climate and the penchant for currently downtrodden lefties to make something out of absolutely nothing.
By the way, wasn’t its cousin, “Great White Nope” attached to Tommy Morrison?
cleek
some history of the phrase:
— blockquote
In 1910, former undefeated heavyweight champion James J. Jeffries came out of retirement and said “I am going into this fight for the sole purpose of proving that a white man is better than a Negro”.[2] Jeffries had not fought in six years and had to lose around 100 lb (45 kg) to try to get back to his championship fighting weight.
The fight took place on July 4, 1910 in front of 22,000 people, at a ring built just for the occasion in downtown Reno, Nevada, and the ringside band played “All coons look alike to me”. The fight had become a hotbed of racial tension, and the promoters incited the all-white crowd to chant “kill the nigger”.[3] Johnson, however, proved stronger and more nimble than Jeffries. In the 15th round, after Jeffries had been knocked down twice for the first time in his career, his people called it quits to prevent Johnson from knocking him out.
The “Fight of the Century” earned Johnson $225,000 and silenced the critics, who had belittled Johnson’s previous victory over Tommy Burns as “empty,” claiming that Burns was a false champion since Jeffries had retired undefeated.
— /blockquote
slag
I still say this statement was actually a knock against John Boehner.
John Cole
@Face: You don’t know what you are talking about.
Update NM- Cleek got there already.
The Moar You Know
That search didn’t work out so well, as I recall.
Zifnab
Fix’d. I remember watching that movie, and my favorite line had to be when the black fighter was joking about the Rockie franchise and how, when black boxers were beating the tar out of white ones, white guys had to start making their own champions up.
I fully expect to see a lot of sound and fury leading into the 2010 election, with big declarations of victory by the entire media machine from October to January, no matter what happens.
gwangung
Come to my neighborhood and say that. Bring lots of first aid to treat the “harmless.”
Idiot.
Max
@Cat Lady: I totally agree. I’d probably have more respect for them if they did.
MattF
Racism or stupidity? The eternal question…
Leelee for Obama
First ” I am so done with these people” for today. It’s as if no one on the Right is aware that we on the Left knew Barack was black before we voted for him. My guess is they assume we were so dazzled by his oratorical-fu, that we completely missed that detail. So they’re just trying to be helpful.
Sloth
JGabriel
Face:
Looks like you already pre-rebutted by the history SGEW looked up.
Conservative certainty: wrong again.
.
Face
@John Cole: Are you really trying to suggest that the background and history of all idioms needs to be researched before speaking them? Does “a stitch in time saves 9” have a racial component? Are you sure?
Political correctness gone mad, IMO. You all know damn well she’s not dumb enough to overtly advocate for a white-only candidate. She’s only dumb enough to use a phrase that the left would dishonestly attempt to paint her as a racist.
Sloth
Wait. What?
Next you are going to tell me he was born somewhere foreign, like Hawaii or some such shit.
asiangrrlMN
@Face: Yes, because we know there is absolutely no racism in the GOP, and she never could have meant it that way. Why, I bet she used that phrase all the time in urging people to rise up and beat the blackity-black man who’s our sitting president.
Just because it’s always been great white hope doesn’t mean it isn’t racist. Given the rampant racially-divisive history of the party (especially in the last forty years), I believe she meant it exactly as it sounded.
However, it made me laugh my ass off, so kudos to her for that!
MacsenMifune
Well Mitt Romney is the great bland hope.
SGEW
@Face:
You’re probably one of these people who think that terms like “uppity” or “ghetto trash” are race neutral.
asiangrrlMN
@Face: Given the fact that most people know that ‘great white hope’ has to do with race and that the GOP has no fucking problem with tossing out the racist shit especially in areas where they will not be challenged (see, comparisons by GOP members of Obama to Hitler), yes, I believe she was stupid enough or arrogant enough to use the phrase exactly as it was interpreted.
khead
They are out of luck. Gerry Cooney retired years ago.
General Winfield Stuck
Aunt Millie Whitehead Of the Kansas Church of the Pentecostal Jeevus Beavers says hell ya, that house boy gotta go, and git that Donkey Dick outa my White House../
ellaesther
Here’s the thing: I have absolutely no doubt that she did not intend it as a racial thing. I have absolutely no doubt that she, like the rest of her party, is criminally tone deaf, and honestly didn’t hear what the fuck she was saying.
And that, my friends, is the REAL problem. One stupid, history-laden insult more or less is not a national problem — but the fact that one of our two political parties is so chronically deaf to themselves, their surroundings, their nation’s history, and the implications of what their words and actions IS an enormous problem. And it is compounded by the fact that their first instinct seems to forever deny that they are ever in the wrong, ever need to learn, ever need to clean out their damn ears and hear themselves and the world around them.
People say offensive things without realizing what they’ve said until it’s out all the time — if they are intellectually honest, considerate human beings, they then say: “Oh holy crow, I didn’t think about how that would sound. I am so sorry! I won’t ever say that again.” (Remember the POTUS and the Special Olympics comment? Dude apologized before anyone in America even knew he’d said it!) I am, somehow, not expecting this from Rep. Jenkins.
Napoleon
@Face:
I tend to agree with your point in general, but you would think in this case she would have thought better of it since the phrase in question had the word white in it and Obama is black.
But as an example of the point you are trying to make I will use the word “sinister” even though I am left handed, and the words origin is a slam against left handers, but few people today would realize that.
Evinfuilt
Political Correctness may ass. She could have asked for a leader to stand up, but instead said what was on her mind. The Republicans need to help the poor downtrodden white people.
This isn’t some ancient hidden riddle about the black plague. This is a statement that even without its history is racist and offensive.
Well, at least she was honest, she’ll be kicked out of the party in no time for that.
Betsy
@Face:
A word to the wise: before you go declaring that other people are getting upset over nothing, ask yourself if perhaps they know something you don’t.
cleek
this isn’t something that needs to be researched. it’s common knowledge. there was even a play about the fight, called “Great White Hope”, in the late 60s, which was later made into a movie.
Legalize
What’s lost in this discussion is that Eric Cantor was cited as an example of said great white hope. This leads me to believe that she was misquoted. What she meant was “great white DOPE.” Also.
danimal
Best example of a Kinsley Gaffe (politician accidentally telling the truth) that I’ve seen in a while.
Da Bomb
I am slightly confused. I thought the Republican Party was trying to boost, the Great Indian Hope- Bobby “Mr. Rogers” Jindal.
What happened with that prospect? I don’t know if Rep Lynn Jenkins got the memo on that, but Indian and White aren’t the same. But he’s not black so he will pass.
But still, what about Michael Steele? I am still confused.
Steele’s chicken and watermelon bit, didn’t get anyone shucking and jiving over the Party of Fat Old White guys who are obsessed with penises that don’t belong to them.
Gee I wonder why?
slag
@ellaesther: What you said.
sashal
nah, she is dumb enough, Face, she is a modern republican from Kansas
JGabriel
Face:
No, we’re simply asserting that you, Face, need to research them before announcing that they’re @“friggin’ harmless”.
Just because you are ignorant of the history an idiom might be freighted with, does not mean the rest of the world is as ignorant as you.
.
Napoleon
@Napoleon:
A PS to my post, I haven’t the slightest idea of where the phrase “white trash” comes from, but unlike the word sinister you can kind of suspect that maybe its origin is not the most innocent, so you will never catch me using it. Something should have told that woman in a similar fashion it wasn’t a great phrase to use, even if she doesn’t have the boxing history knowledge of a Howard Cosell.
AkaDad
I found the Great White Hope.
Not a rickroll, I swear.
The Grand Panjandrum
So is the entire purpose of what’s left of the GOP to provide material for late night talk show, Colbert, Maher and Stewart? Comedy writers should be quaking in their boots because all of those will have Ryan Seacrest hosting a series of Youtube clips of the daily GOP screw ups.
Today (so far):
1. Michael Steele on NPR.
2. Rep. Jenkins
3 … (Probably Rush giving out the GOP talking points of the day.)
4 … … … (Glenn Beck? Hannity? O’Reilly?)
Leelee for Obama
@Legalize: @Legalize: One can hope, but I doubt it. There’s another issue I find troubling. The Republican/Conservative folks think Eric Cantor is sharp. So, bigoted and delusional-that can’t be good.
Thomas Levenson
@Face: John is right. We need a better class of trolls. This is…how to put it delicately…weak sauce, dude.
Crashman06
@Face: You’re sounding a bit hypersensitive here. She probably did not mean it as a racial comment, but she should have realized that it would come across that way. This particular idiom literally dates from white folks hoping Jeffries would win the Jack Johnson fight, as Cleek mentions above. Hell, they made not one but two movies based on the idea of this phase.
So, she should have been more careful about what she said.
Face
I believe she was stupid enough or arrogant enough to use the phrase exactly as it was interpreted.
We strongly disagree on this.
ellaesther
@Face: It’s not “political correctness gone mad” to expect people to be thinking, considerate adults — that much more so if they are on a national stage, talking in an atmosphere of great racial tension, in no small part because of the clear race-baiting of many, many people in her own party.
If you’ll read my earlier comment, you’ll see that I actually agree that it’s pretty likely that she didn’t literally mean “we need a white man up in this bitch!” — but thinking, moral people take into consideration the implications of their words and actions ahead of time, even when they know that someone else’s perception will not be an accurate assessment of their intent.
I think she just said something stupid — the problem is that the GOP “just says” stupidass stuff all the fucking time, without any consideration for what it might mean to anyone else, and without any willingness to acknowledge, much less apologize for, their criminal lack of common sense and decency.
Da Bomb
@Face: Okay, what is about that idiom that you don’t find offensive. The history of it is offensive. Are you not connecting the dots?
How many people do hear in public going around saying that they are looking for the next Great WHite Hope? Honestly.
I tell you what, since this is just a harmless idiom, why don’t go walk in the middle of a black neighborhood and scream taht you are looking for the next great White Hope and see where that would get you.
Answer: A swift ass beatdown.
joe from Lowell
We should be grateful to “Face” for again illustrating the profoundly screwed-up stance conservatives have towards race. Several of their characteristic flaws show up in that one little comment.
First, he’s completely dog-ignorant of the actual history of the term – its origin, and how it’s used. A profound ignorance of the history of race relations is a defining characteristic of conservatives.
Second, he assumes that the outrage over the use of the term must be misplaced, that it must be a perfectly innocent term like “niggardly” or “blackballed,” that have racial origins or connotations at all, even though it actually does. Insisting on the innocence of racially-loaded appeals when they’re made by white people is profoundly conservative.
Third, Face demonstrates the “magic word list” theory of racial discourse that defines the EPIC FAIL that is conservatives’ attempt to talk about race. Conservatives think that there is a magic list of terms that are forbidden, and if one can merely avoid using those terms, one cannot be accused of racism, regardless of what one is actually saying. So, when he sees a Republican catching flak for using the term “great white hope,” his first reaction is to insist that THAT’S NOT ON THE LIST, as if saying that we need a “great white hope” – literally, a white person to come defeat the black champion so that the title will be back where it belongs, in the hands of white people – is acceptable and free of racism, because he’s never seen “great white hope” on his magic list.
(BTW, it can be very amusing to watch a conservative deal with a situation in which THE LIST butts up against reality. “Uh oh, should I ask Tyrone to come with us to KFC? It would look bad if everyone in the office went out to eat without him, but…you know…Fuck it, we’re getting Chinese!”)
And finally, we see the direction of Face’s outrage – not directed at the person who uttered the racially charged remark, but at the people who took exception to it. Because taking exception to racism is such a curse upon our fair land. It’s not exactly racism that motivates Face – call it “anti-anti-racism.” He gets all fired up when someone complains about racism.
Betsy
@ellaesther:
Exactly.
Face, it’s not that people are “dishonestly” trying to paint her as “a racist.” It’s not that (pardon the expression) black and white. Race and racism is more complicated than “either you are or you aren’t.” People can unintentionally say things that are sexist and racist without intending them to be, but that doesn’t remove the fact that they ARE sexist and racist. I think most of us have done this, however well-intentioned, because our history means that these thought systems permeate the very air we breathe.
The problem comes when we try to deny it, or to argue that just because we didn’t INTEND for it to be racist, that means it WASN’T racist. It’s not just about intent.
Someone who makes a rape joke isn’t intending to condone or minimize the damage of rape, usually. But the joke still has that effect. And decent people, when it’s pointed out to them, will apologize, acknowledge their ignorance about it and the fact that they didn’t intend to cause harm, and refrain from doing it in the future (or try to). The same thing applies with phrases like “great white hope.”
Face
You’re probably one of these people who think that terms like “uppity” or “ghetto trash” are race neutral.
Yup, that’s me. Too ig’nant to know what “ghetto trash” means. Probably urban refuse, right? Cuz the idea is to take all expressions literally, right? So “great white hope” must mean great caucasian person, literally, because there’s no way they’re grooming Jindal as a possible candidate, right?
The Moar You Know
What’s tragic is that since Barack is just as much white as black, he may well be the “great white hope” that the Republicans are looking for, but they just can’t see it!
Betsy
Damn, here I go feeding the trolls. Just after John asked us not to. Sorry Cole! Will try to do better!
SGEW
@Napoleon:
Cute analogy, but it only works if this country had a history of, you know, enslaving, lynching, and disenfranchising millions of left handed people.
(Also, tangentially, Obama is left handed. Not that this means anything!)
Charity
I think stuff like “great white hope” is code. Like when that one Congresscritter described Obama as “uppity.” It’s code for the kind of people who are still freaked out about OMG A NEEEGROW! in the White House.
And this is coming from someone who thought the Faux News referring to Mrs. Obama in 2008 as her husband’s “baby mama” was pure (pardon the phrase) stupidity on their part and trying to be funny because “it rhymed.”
JGabriel
Face:
Really? So your argument is that Jenkins is ignorant and insensitive rather than stupid and arrogant?
That’s a real winner, Face.
.
ellaesther
@The Moar You Know: Oh, snap! Now you’ve made me laugh. This is a good thing, after my morning dose of righteous indignation.
jibeaux
Well, maybe it was less to do with the President being black and more to do with Michael Steele being black and the more he talks the more they think, “you know who we need in this job? Someone who is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike Michael Steele.”
SGEW
(must . . . resist . . . feeding . . . troll)
joes527
I don’t know why everyone is getting their panties in a bunch over “Great White Hope”.
Sure it sucked. But … it was the 80’s man.
Da Bomb
There are words littered within the english language, whose origins are racist. Anything “black” is bad, anything “white” good.
I remember Looney Tunes cartoons had the characters get blown up by and explosive and their faces would have “black” characterisitics. They have to update Tom and Jerry to change the sound of the maid who would yell at them, because in the original cartoons she spoke in broken english. Now she speaks proper english
I took a history course in college while getting my masters and had to do a presentation on phrases and words that are commonly used in the english language that have racist backgrounds. The country has participated in s systemic form of racism and oppression in subtle ways for over 200 years. My father lived through the water hoses and the dogs.
So I have eevry damn right to be offended.
Face
@joe from Lowell: What’s cracking me up at this point is that you think I’m a conservative.
I’ll freely admit that I did not know the origin of the term, so it’s not as harmless as I thought. But to continue to believe that the Kansas Rep intentionally used this term to advocate a whites-only policy is ludicrous.
PK
I think we are reaching a point where one of these days the N word is going to come out. The republicans have shown almost superhuman restraint so far. But I do not expect it to last 4 years. I’m guessing before the year is out.
Betsy
@joes527:
Ha!! Thanks for that.
joe from Lowell
You’re probably one of these people who think that terms like “uppity” or “ghetto trash” are race neutral.
I once had a room mate who felt quite put-upon because people objected when asked someone if she has “nigger-lipped” his bottle of beer. “It’s got nothing to do with race! It’s just a term for putting your lips on something!”
So “great white hope” must mean great caucasian person, literally, because there’s no way they’re grooming Jindal as a possible candidate, right?
No, “great white hope” means caucasian person who will defeat the current non-caucasian champion because that’s what the term means. Look it up. Stop insisting, even after the actual meaning and history have been pointed out to you, that it has no racial content. Yes, it does. This is not a matter of opinion. This is you, and Jenkins, not knowing what the term means.
Just Some Fuckhead
@khead:
All Cooneys look alike to me.
Betsy
@Face:
See my earlier comment about intent.
cleek
maybe Face is right. maybe she wasn’t using it in a race-related way.
maybe she is hoping for a giant man-eating shark to pop up and bite Obama’s head off. a land shark, maybe.
Leelee for Obama
@cleek: And this Jimmy Buffet fan thanks you, humbly. I’m sure that’s what she really meant-how could we misjudge her this way?
JGabriel
Face:
I don’t know about “they”, but apparently Jenkins ain’t grooming Jindal:
Seems your resorting to Jindal for token racist shielding is kind of disingenuous given the context of Jenkins’ remarks.
.
Tsulagi
Well, likely Rep. Jenkins was just following her guiding light, the fat North Star of the Pubs twinkling in all his oxycontin and blue-pill baggie filled glory. He’s their great white muse.
joe from Lowell
Face
@joe from Lowell: What’s cracking me up at this point is that you think I’m a conservative.
You’re clearly conservative on racial issues.
I’ll freely admit that I did not know the origin of the term, so it’s not as harmless as I thought.
No, it’s not – but you jumped down the throats of people who knew what they were talking about. You didn’t respond with “Huh, what’s everyone getting so upset about? Could there be something to this?” Nope, not you, Face. You saw people objecting to a term you didn’t understand on the grounds that it was racist, and you reflexively rushed to the side of the person who’d said something racist, and went on a rant about how terrible it is that people who say things like “We need a great white hope to beat Obama” get accused of racist speech. Why do you think you do that?
But to continue to believe that the Kansas Rep intentionally used this term to advocate a whites-only policy is ludicrous.
I don’t know the woman personally, but if I were a betting man, I’d go with “pig-ignorant, clueless, doesn’t know any black people, doesn’t know how to act in modern society” over “advocates whites-only policy.”
Froley
more to do with Michael Steele being black and the more he talks the more they think, “you know who we need in this job? Someone who is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike Michael Steele.”
He was awful on NPR’s “Morning Edition” today. The host pointed out the inconsistency in Steele’s simultaneous demonizing of Medicare and trying to “protect” the program. If something is so poorly run (as he claims), then why try to protect it?
SGEW
@cleek: It’s only a candygram.
JGabriel
@Face:
Bingo! That’s all most us were looking for. Congratulations for doing the mature thing, admitting you were wrong, and that you learned from the corrections.
.
joe from Lowell
This is what indoctrination into the “anti-PC” mindset gets you.
You end up taking the side of the devil on questions of racism, because you’ve been trained to see people who object to racism, sexism, and homophobia as the enemy.
To the barricades! The people who denounce racism must be stopped!
Face
This is not a matter of opinion. This is you, and Jenkins, not knowing what the term means.
And therein lies my whole argument. Ignorant are we? Yes. Racist? No.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Face:
No problem. You have the right to hear the phrase differently, think differently and react to it differently. It’s a big country. Of course you also have the right to be as ignorant as a plate of pork-n-beans with no pork and damn few beans – aka there’s nothing on your plate but weak sauce.
slag
@Brick Oven Bill: Haha! So glad I’m not judged by my SAT scores any more. I remember being up doing something (I don’t even remember what) the entire night before my SATs. I vaguely remember falling asleep at some point in the middle of the test and barely finishing in time. Had to spend my first two years of college in my craptastic local university for financial reasons anyway, so the scores didn’t really affect me that much. But I can’t imagine they were very good.
Luckily, though, this is America, and we have at least a minimal amount of class mobility. So the sins of our misspent youths don’t necessarily predestine us to a life of anti-intellectual drudgery.
asiangrrlMN
I actually agree with ellaesther and joe from Lowell now that I’ve had a chance to read their comments (you couldn’t comment earlier, guys?). She may not have intentionally meant it the way it sounded (though I still wouldn’t bet that she didn’t), but the three guys she goes on to cite are so very white (and male), which underscores the covert meaning, if not the overt one.
And, I hate the ‘I’m sorry if anyone was offended’ bullshit because it puts the onus back on the people who were offended. Either you’re sorry or you’re not. Period.
flukebucket
Aunt Millie Whitehead Of the Kansas Church of the Pentecostal Jeevus Beavers says hell ya, that house boy gotta go, and git that Donkey Dick outa my White House..
I wonder every day how Aunt Millie is holding up. I just hope she can make it through the first term.
smiley
The irony of that phrase is that whoever utters it in implicitly conceding the superiority of the opponent of the other (whichever) race.
Man. is that ever true.
asiangrrlMN
@Face: See joe from Lowell at #74 in answer to this. It’s the fact that you immediately jumped to accusing people of being PC that makes you racially conservative (thanks, joe. I’ll be using that from now on) instead of questioning why people were reacting in that fashion.
@JGabriel: Damn you for beating me to my point about the men Jenkins named as possible contenders to beat Obama.
John Cole
BOB is taking another week off. I’m tired of his racist bullshit.
asiangrrlMN
@John Cole: Thanks, Cole. I don’t know how to make pie.
Morbo
@slag: OT, but very minimal.
General Winfield Stuck
@asiangrrlMN:
BoB needs a week on the electric train to get his mind right. Maybe some of our other pinhead trolls could join him.
Napoleon
@SGEW:
I think you miss the point. Even assuming for purposes of discussion that this country did have a history of enslaving left handers or whatever, the meaning of the word sinister itself at this point in time has lost all connection to left handedness as the vast majority of people, and there is nothing on the face of the word that suggest its origin, so I doubt you would hear much in the way of objection. I am willing to bet there are 100’s of examples like this where the phrase or word is used in a totally different manner then its origination.
Do a mind exercise, instead of the phrase “great white hope” say people at that time used the phrase “great Newark hope” because that is where the boxer came from (I am making that up, I don’t know where he was from) even though the reason they wanted him to win was because he was white and they wanted him to beat the black guy, but in the interim the word has been used for years as a generic phrase meaning basically some kind of savior arising out of nowhere (which by the way is exactly how great white hope has been used for my entire lifetime). Would you have a problem then? What if in this parallel universe instead of the word sinister arising it was the phrase “left handed bastard”?
The only problem I see with what she used is that the general origin of the word is fairly easily guessed just from the face of the phrase. If face point is that it is ridiculous to hold everyone to know the origin of every word as opposed to its current common meaning he is entirely correct, the problem is that the average person should notice that the words used suggest a potential problem with its background.
slag
@Morbo: Holy crap! The UK is beating us?!? Disappointing.
ellaesther
@asiangrrlMN: So sorry for my tardiness! I am often slow because I am long-winded! For me the information superhighway is often more of a wandering path through the woods….
And yes, re: faux-pologies. Isn’t it stunning how big a difference is to be found between “I’m sorry if people were offended, that was not my intent,” and “I’m sorry that I offended people, that was not my intent”?
Ah, personal responsibility. Is it too much to ask from adults? Fucking hell, my six and ten year old know better than these people.
flukebucket
I remember Looney Tunes cartoons had the characters get blown up by and explosive and their faces would have “black” characterisitics.
I always thought that was because of gunpowder. I was unaware that that had racial implications.
Leelee for Obama
@John Cole: Thank you, John. That will make not feeding the trolls a much easier job. I had already decided to refrain before your post-I remembered something I read years ago:
“Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and annoys the pig.”
No, I’m not calling trolls pigs. It’s just an instructive piece of farm wisdom that makes sense in other contexts.
SGEW
@John Cole: A very sincere thank you.
jibeaux
@asiangrrlMN:
cleek updated his filter.
South of I-10
OT, but Charlie Melancon announced today he is going to run against David Vitter, not a huge fan of Charlie Melancon, but anything is better than David Vitter.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Leelee for Obama:
It’s Never rassle with a pig, ya both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Why in hell would anyone try to teach a pig to sing?
Leelee for Obama
@South of I-10: If I lived in LA, I’d vote for the porn star. Charlie Melancon doesn’t seem all that different, unless you bring up diapers.
Leelee for Obama
@Just Some Fuckhead: Don’t know the origin-something about trying to improve someone who was unimprovable, and unhappy with efforts at same.
Scott de B.
wasabi gasp
Sounds like she’s scraping the bottom of the cracker barrel.
Da Bomb
@ellaesther: That’s the problem, so many people want others to take responsibility for their own personal welfare, “pick yourself up by the bootstraps”, but never really take responsibility for their own actions.
BTW, I lurk on your blog occassionally, it’s very informative. Or as Cokie Roberts would say, “Very interesting.”
SGEW
@Napoleon: I think I understand where you’re coming from. Frankly, I’m surprised that the phrase “Great White Hope” meant anything but “Beat the Darky” to anyone, but I suppose that’s my own cultural conditioning talking (“basically some kind of savior arising out of nowhere”? Really? Wow. Shows what I know, I guess.).
The left handed analogy (based on a counter-factual thought exercise of left-handed people having been historically oppressed) does touch on a key point: if that was the case, there very well might be a great many people who would be offended by the word “sinister.” For instance, the phrases “to gyp” or “indian giver,” while being (more or less) removed from their historically racist/eliminationist origins, are still pretty damn offensive to me. But your point about the obvious nature of, say, “left-handed bastard,” as opposed to “sinister” (which is, I freely admit, pretty darn obscure), is very apt.
Mike in NC
Vacationing on Martha’s Vineyard? Nice! When he gets back, somebody please hide the decimal points, percent signs, and fractions. BOB has no business playing with numbers.
joe from Lowell
Face,
Ignorant are we? Yes. Racist? No.
I mean this honestly: I don’t believe you are motivated by racial animus, and I’ve seen no evidence that you are given to racial prejudice.
That said, there are a lot more ways that race and racism bubble up in our society than individuals’ emotions.
Midnight Marauder
@joe from Lowell:
I don’t know the woman personally, but if I were a betting man, I’d go with “pig-ignorant, clueless, doesn’t know any black people, doesn’t know how to act in modern society” over “advocates whites-only policy.”
I think this sums it up quite nicely. Nothing more nefarious going on here; she’s no Karl Rove. Just some good ol’ fashion GOP ignorance right there.
South of I-10
@Leelee for Obama: She got arrested for some type of domestic violence in July – haven’t really heard anything from her since. I would vote for just about anyone not to have to look at David Vitter’s smarmy face any more.
joe from Lowell
Asian Grrl:
She may not have intentionally meant it the way it sounded (though I still wouldn’t bet that she didn’t), but the three guys she goes on to cite are so very white (and male), which underscores the covert meaning, if not the overt one.
This is another good example of how racism is more than individual racial animus.
There is an obvious rejoinder to your point: “Jenkins is a Republican. Virtually all Republican officeholders are white. Off course the candidates she names are going to be white – that has nothing to do with racial animus. So, therefore, it has nothing to do with racism.”
The problem here is that the argument is “Virtually all Republicans are white. See, no racial angle!” Well, if all of the black people have run screaming from the Republicans for so long that there aren’t any black Republicans left, doesn’t that suggest something of a racial angle?
How about the fact that a Congressional Rep from the all-white party doesn’t realize that it’s a bad idea to say that we need a great white hope to beat Barack Obama? Why do you think she doesn’t realize that? Might it have something to do with the makeup of her party?
And yet, none of that has anything to do with racial animus, prejudice, or an ideology of white superiority.
Napoleon
@SGEW:
I have heard great white hope used for years, and I can not recall a single time it was used around me that it was refering to a white unseating a black, but you would think most people should be thinking twice about it.
You give two great examples, so great that I have never give a second thought to using the word gyp and hadn’t the slightest idea where it comes from, but now that you mention it, and giving it a little thought, I bet I could guess.
joes527
@SGEW:
Oh really?
You’d be surprised.
Midnight Marauder
@SGEW:
The left handed analogy (based on a counter-factual thought exercise of left-handed people having been historically oppressed) does touch on a key point: if that was the case, there very well might be a great many people who would be offended by the word “sinister.”
Exactly. It’s a tough though experiment to pull off, because if you accept the premise, it pretty much transforms the entirety of the experiment.
but in the interim the word has been used for years as a generic phrase meaning basically some kind of savior arising out of nowhere (which by the way is exactly how great white hope has been used for my entire lifetime).
Yeah, but used by who? The people advocating the discrimination and oppression? Because if that’s the case, then it definitely makes sense that they would toss it around as some kind of generic phrase. But to the people actually being oppressed, the phrase is always going to resonate strongly with that population. Especially if there are still deeply-rooted issues of inequality and discrimination existing within that society today.
Also, I have to co-sign to the idea that I find it incredibly hard to believe that the phrase “Great White Hope” was used frequently around you in some kind of context completely devoid of race. I don’t think that’s possible with that particular phrase, give the fact that its entire existence (and continued presence in the language today) is based entirely on RACISM.
Leelee for Obama
@South of I-10: Oh well, Melancon it is then. Cause Vitter is just awful.
ellaesther
@joe from Lowell: Writer Kim McLarin once wrote this thing on The Root that just grabbed me.
“I teach students who are, for the most part, white, suburban and well-to-do. They believe, bless their hearts, that racism and the inequality it creates, is an individual thing. They believe that if they are personally nice to any black person or Latino person, etc., who crosses their path, then the problem of racial inequality in American will be solved soon enough…. These young people are deeply well-intentioned and just as deeply in need of what sociologist C. Wright Mills called a sociological imagination — the ability to link individual experience with greater societal patterns and with the course of history.” http://www.theroot.com/views/when-tom-met-sally
Cyrus
@flukebucket:
Lots of people aren’t, but it’s really true. I can’t link to YouTube directly because it’s blocked here at work, but look up Bosko some time. He’s sort of a missing link between blackface singing-and-dancing minstrel shows, which now are really offensive but weren’t controversial at all a hundred years ago, and all those totally benign animated shorts we think of when we think of Bugs bunny or Mickey Mouse.
There’s a list called the Censored Eleven, including one Bugs Bunny cartoon, of cartoons so full of racist content that they weren’t syndicated at all, but there are a lot more with blackface references or similar jokes here and there, and those bits get edited out when the cartoons are broadcast today.
JGabriel
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Why in hell would anyone try to rassle a pig?
(Pause)
You know … on second thought, I really don’t want to know the answer to that one.
.
SGEW
@Napoleon:
I suppose this shows how different cultural circles can lead to very different understandings of phrases (I think I’ve only heard “great white hope” used ironically, meaning: some dumb ass who’s trying to fight history and will thankfully lose, with the nasty racial undertones pretty much intact – I honestly didn’t know that there was an sincerely non-racial/non-historical interpretation). Vast gaps in age, geography, and social demographics! What a country. (Disclosure: I come from an east coast, urban, multiethnic, multicultural, academic background – and I guess I should really acknowledge how small this demographic is, and that my cultural assumptions are almost inexplicable to the vast majority of my fellow Americans.)
FormerSwingVoter
White Power! White Power! White Power! White Power!
…Wait, why do people think I’m a racist? I didn’t say anything disparaging about black people. If what I said before has been used by racists in the past, then I probably didn’t know.
Honestly, why would anyone at all think I’m a racist? It’s probably all that reverse-racism going on. People see that I’m white, and that I surround myself only with whites, and that I occasionally let slip that I feel that whites are inherently superior, and then they just assume that I’m some sort of racist.
Race-baiters.
SGEW
@joes527: Okay, okay. Rewrite my counter-factual as “. . . left-handed people having been as harshly oppressed as racial or religious minorities.”
[I was actually thinking about this after I posted, and wanted to modify my statement, but no edit function yet. You got me. – Signed a person who grew up ambidextrous but was conditioned into right hand dominance, yet who’s still had a hell of a lot more racism and religious bigotry aimed at me.]
b-psycho
So how long until the “Jim Gaffigan 2012” bumper stickers show up? Or did someone do that already?
Gus
Not a fight fan obviously, or you’re very young. I remember hearing it used referring to Gerry Cooney. It never occurred to me that it could be seen as not having racial connotations.
Midnight Marauder
@Gus:
It never occurred to me that it could be seen as not having racial connotations.
This is probably my biggest takeaway from this entire thing. I just honestly am stunned that there are people who view that word as not having racial connotations. Its very existence is due to racial connotations.
Brachiator
@Betsy:
Sorry, I’ve rarely seen people unintentionally make sexist or racist comments, except in a few cases when they absolutely did not know about the history of the word. More often, they unintentionally dropped a social mask and revealed their racial or sexual anxiety or discomfort.
Quick example: I once had a co-worker who treated women with respect and never said anything overtly sexist. Until he had a woman boss. Ultimately, he got fired as his mild anxiety over having a woman superior shifted to resentment and open defiance.
Nobody has to suggest that Jenkins has gone full-Klan in order to remark on the racial anxiety in her remarks. But ever since Obama became the candidate, the GOP has had to pull back periodically from remarks that they have been used to making among themselves that reveal their anxiety and discomfort.
And typically, the initially deny the racial nature of their remarks (“Why, even though I am a proud Southerner, I declare that I never knew that ‘uppity’ might be offensive.”)
Or they go for the long ball: “I am not racist if I make the remark, but you are racist if you call me on it.”
And when they are really desperate, they look for a black person making a similarly racist statement. And so, you have “Politics Daily” defend Jenkins by finding a clip of a black minister early in the Democratic Primary season calling Obama a “great white hope.” The irony is that this only reinforces the point against Jenkins.
The “Politics Daily” article and YouTube clip can be found here:
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08/27/rep-lynn-jenkins-calls-for-great-white-hope-to-thwart-obama/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqA_v1fHsyk
Ah, and a short time ago, one of the morning radio shows did a piece on Jenkins. There were snorts of derision and disbelief. Nobody said, “Gosh, I’ve never heard that term before” or “Gee, I don’t think there are any racial overtones in that at all.”
And so it goes.
cleek
sports writers still use it to describe white boxers. and they know perfectly well what it means.
SGEW
@cleek: Cripes. Yet another reason to hate boxing.
Cyrus
@Brachiator:
Reminds me of the bitching (hmmm, inappropriate choice of words there, but anyways) when Matthew Yglesias’ boss, Jennifer Palmieri, jumped in and posted a quick post on his blog to reiterate Think Progress’ policies on editorial freedom and a certain group Yglesias had been criticizing. A lot of people read her post as censorship, or deliberately creating a chilling effect, or a sign that supposedly unbiased opinions are actually being guided by political ends.
All that is fair, more or less, although it got overwrought and trollish, of course. But a lot of it was gendered jokes or criticism – asking if Matt’s balls were on Palmieri’s desk, stuff like that. It seemed that some of Matt’s readers objected to the idea that he has a female boss specifically.
Ash Can
OK, I start out the thread laughing at what this genius Jenkins says. Then I laugh some more when I get to gnomedad’s comment on Extenze advertising on Glenn Beck. Right under that, Face announces that we’re being overly sensitive about a harmless saying, sandwiched immediately between two accounts of the history of this saying and how overtly nefarious it is. Later, Cole announces a BOB-free week.
Awesome thread.
PS: I too believe that Jenkins was clueless about using the expression rather than deliberately racist. These people aren’t tone-deaf, they’re friggin’ comatose.
Kelly
Scott de B. said “It’s the ‘either a racist or not’ false dichotomy that leads to the ‘but I have black friends’ argument.”
Yep, and it enables spurious attacks that, in turn, give traction to blanket denials and the now popular kill the messenger defense. Whether her intentions were insidious or not, her message was. And to swear the dog whistle was a kazoo makes her even more suspect. It isn’t evidence of overt racism, but it does reveal some unsavory, if ill defined issues.
Pangloss
I would bet anything she did a quick scan of the room before she said it.
Tsulagi
@Leelee for Obama:
Oh, she’d have my vote. Like me she’s part Tsalagi/Cherokee and way more intelligent and principled than Vitter. Also doesn’t hurt that she’s fairly hot.
ellaesther
@Da Bomb: Yay! All lurkers welcome! Commenters, too! (And thank you!)
There’s also this sense of: If you fuck up, it’s because you’re a fuck up. If I fuck up, it’s because I am subject to woe, misfortune, and misunderstanding.
jacy
The thing about the Republican party as a whole is not so much that they’re overtly racist, i.e. carefully choosing thier words, it’s that they’re casually racist. It’s ingrained. And that somehow seems worse to me. They’ll always think of anybody who is not White/Christian/ Heterosexual as just not worth thinking that hard about.
And living in Louisiana, I can tell you Melancon is an idiot, just not as big an idiot as Vitter. That’s what we always have as a choice down here, Idiot versus Marginally Less of an Idiot. The last Louisiana politician I had any respect for was John Breaux and that was marginal respect. At least he had enough sense to hightail it out of this hellhole.
Leelee for Obama
You mean, like George Allen did? That worked out so well.
jacy
And if you think Jindal’s ever going to make it on the national stage, I got some land south of Point Sulpher I’d like to sell you.
Lousiana is just another planet, and anything that happens here has no relationship to the real world.
Leelee for Obama
@jacy: Which is just as God intended, or so I’ve been told.
Leelee for Obama
@Tsulagi: She seemed to have her head right, and you’re right, she is nice looking. Wonder if she’ll make a comeback?
Brachiator
@Napoleon:
A lot of people assume that “gyp” is a reference to Gypsies, but there is not a lot of evidence for this. And some still think that “to welch” or “to welsh” on a bet hides some old slur against the Welsh people, but the clear references are to English horse race bookies stuck with too many longshot winners against them — and other debtors — who would flee to Wales to avoid prosecution.
By contrast all, the literary and cultural references to “great white hope” pretty much emphasize a racial linkage.
Of course, sinister means left in Latin, and the creators of the Underdog cartoon engaged in wordplay in naming a villain Simon Bar Sinister. You could take this just as “sinister” meaning “bad guy,” but it was also a play on medieval heraldry (a line on a shield going from top right to the bottom left), with a few other puns embedded as well.
But who studies Latin or heraldry anymore?
Or red-headed step child ….
Morbo
@Tsulagi: She also allegedly beats her husband over laundry. I love the lack of euphemism for her occupation on the police report.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@Brachiator:
I’m in the SCA. I know, among other semi-useless facts, that Bubba is a name with Anglo-Saxon origins.
ellaesther
@ellaesther: In the name of intellectual honesty, etc, UPDATE: Jenkins did in fact apologize.
“At an event at University of Kansas in Lawrence, Jenkins denied she was speaking in racial terms and said she meant only that the GOP needs ‘a bright light.’
‘I was unaware of any negative connotation, and if I offended anybody, obviously, I apologize,’ Jenkins told the Lawrence Journal-World.”
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/6589490.html
(I suspect some will question her honesty or sincerity. I’m going to go with accepting what she said at face value).
(further honesty: I was led to this news by TNC http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/)
SGEW
@Brachiator: Huh. I actually wasn’t aware about the etymology of “gyp” (etymology nerd fail! My OED weeps with shame). But ever since I met someone with actual Roma heritage who was very, very offended by the word, I learned to avoid it. Much in the same line as “niggardly” – sure, the word has nothing to do with race, but it’s still a good idea to strike it from your casual vocabulary.
Also, re: @Woodrow “asim” Jarvis Hill and “Bubba” – that’s pretty neat.
Midnight Marauder
@ellaesther:
(I suspect some will question her honesty or sincerity. I’m going to go with accepting what she said at face value).
I think a few might question her sincerity, but I think most here are of the opinion that she really was just blindly ignorant of the history of the term and its usage in our society over the years.
Again, I think it’s an issue of “soft” racism, where certain thoughts and beliefs become so commonplace and ingrained in an individuals’ perspective, they really can’t see the larger picture unless someone connects the dots for them.
In conclusion, this lady is a fucking idiot.
Jen R
@John Cole:
Thank you.
I don’t care if he’s sincere or not. Even if he’s a spoof, that doesn’t really make it much better. That just means he thinks it’s funny to spout racist crap all the time.
Tsulagi
@Morbo:
Okay, she’s not perfect. Apparently she’s inordinately touchy about how the laundry is done. We all have our things. Still, from that Smoking Gun link you gotta love her campaign slogan: “Stormy Daniels: Screwing People Honestly.”
Compare that to family values Vitter prancing around in diapers paying soulmates by the hour behind his wife’s back. While Stormy lets her husband know right to his face just how she feels about the laundry. Go Stormy!
Dork
@Morbo: this is why I have trouble believing that report. What official report would have “porn star” instead of the more professional “actress” or “entertainer” on it? Looks quite fake with such slang.
Michael D.
You know, I have heard the idiom, “Great White Hope” plenty of times before, and never in a racial context. I don’t believe for a minute she meant it the way you all have taken it. I don’t know this woman – she might be a complete idiot – but making her out to be a racist based on THIS phrase?
I know the knee-jerk reaction on both sides of the political spectrum is to want to personally destroy those who don’t agree with you by analyzing every little thing they say in hopes of finding something – anything – to pulverize their characters with, but come on. You can do better than that.
How can people take your criticisms of their actions seriously when they know that, no matter WHAT they say, you’ll see something in it that’s racist, sexist, homophobic, etc…?
How does that help advance ANY sort of decent political discourse in this country?
RareSanity
From a comedic perspective, why couldn’t someone have brought up Rocky Marciano as an example of a “Great White Hope”. Then, I could have submitted the required Eddie Murphy, “Coming to America” dialog.
I’m very disappointed in you Balloon-Juice commentariat, very disappointed indeed…for shame.
P.S.
Is commemtariat even a real word?
Midnight Marauder
@Michael D.:
You know, I have heard the idiom, “Great White Hope” plenty of times before, and never in a racial context. I don’t believe for a minute she meant it the way you all have taken it. I don’t know this woman – she might be a complete idiot – but making her out to be a racist based on THIS phrase?
Well then, you–much like her–represents a small minority of people who have never heard the phrase in a “racial context.” That statement is a bit disingenuous to the actual discussion, since the phrase itself creates said racial context given its history and nature.
And what do you mean “the way you all have taken it”? Do you mean the various nuanced statements such as this:
I think I understand where you’re coming from. Frankly, I’m surprised that the phrase “Great White Hope” meant anything but “Beat the Darky” to anyone, but I suppose that’s my own cultural conditioning talking
She may not have intentionally meant it the way it sounded (though I still wouldn’t bet that she didn’t), but the three guys she goes on to cite are so very white (and male), which underscores the covert meaning, if not the overt one.
I don’t know the woman personally, but if I were a betting man, I’d go with “pig-ignorant, clueless, doesn’t know any black people, doesn’t know how to act in modern society” over “advocates whites-only policy.”
How can people take your criticisms of their actions seriously when they know that, no matter WHAT they say, you’ll see something in it that’s racist, sexist, homophobic, etc…?
How does that help advance ANY sort of decent political discourse in this country?
Except that in this case, what she actually said is a term that derives from a period of incredibly heated racial tensions from the white Americans towards their darker fellow countrymen and countrywomen. The term is literally a racist term. That she was was unaware of its historical context is tragic.
However, clearly you can see how correcting this kind of grossly ignorant, insensitive, and racially/culturally invective would actually be the kind of thing that would advance decent political discourse in this country.
Or maybe you’re just another in a long line of recently uber-weak spoofs and trolls.
Cyrus
This reminds me of George Allen. Some friendly advice, Mr. Allen: if the nickname you give to a non-white person just happens by pure coincidence to be a species of monkey, and if you say “Welcome to America and… Virginia” to someone who has lived there since birth for no apparent reason other than his skin color, people might get the crazy idea that you’re racist. Shocking, I know!
Likewise, Rep. Jenkins, if you say you need a “great white hope” – a phrase with an openly racist origin, which still often gets used that way – to beat someone who just happens to be black, and if you go on to list three possibilities who just happen to all be white guys, people might detect a certain racial tinge to your message. Yup, I’m as baffled as you.
(The innocent, boneheadedly tone-deaf explanation advanced by some here is a lot more plausible in Jenkins’ case than in Allen’s, but still seems inadequate. Maybe we need a new word for this specific kind of stupidity.) That being said, she did apologize, which is better than not.
Instantly Moderated Commenter
@Michael D.: Gosh, Michael D. That’s really gay of you. You’re a real pussy.
. . .
What? Is there some kind of bigoted context to that statement? If so, I’ve never heard of it, people around me say that kind of thing all the time, so obviously anyone taking offense at it is being way too oversensitive.
[making a point]
Brachiator
@Michael D.:
Quite simply, I don’t believe you. And even if I did, it’s irrelevant to the fact that the term’s origin and common usage has racial overtones.
A bit of false dichotomy at work here. I noted that Jenkins does not have to be a full-on racist in order to suggest racial anxiety in her choice of words.
But as you admit, you don’t know the woman.
And the larger point is that it is pointless for the GOP to talk about being more inclusive if they reside in some bubble of linguistic ignorance.
I also don’t understand this pseudo-rule that nothing should be offensive unless the speaker clearly and overtly intended to give offense. This is ridiculous. So, you would get something like this:
“We’re the GOP. We may stuff that you find repugnant, but because we are an insular and ignorant group, we shift the burden to you to forgive us because it is absolutely impossible for us to be racist.”
It’s like the Senator who made lame ass “I Love Lucy” references during the Sotomayor hearings. Golly, gee, he didn’t mean it to be demeaning.
Right.
Michael D.
I’m just saying that she may not have been aware of the origins of the phrase. I’ve heard the term “Great white hope” used in the same context as is used when you say you’re looking for your “white knight”
That’s all I’m saying.
mapaghimagsik
Wow, I didn’t know the origin of the phrase “great white hope” either. I *could* have made that mistake, but I’d be very careful about using idioms in a political arena.
So if I’d make that mistake. I think there’d be another press conference — I used this phrase. It means this. Wow, parts of US history are really screwed up, and I didn’t know it meant that.
It would be helpful for everyone to understand the context — that is, if they didn’t already.
Eric K
Face,
Here is the thing it isn;t just that she said “Great White Hope” whne talking about beating a Black president. It is the context. The phrase resfers to people wanting to find a white heavyweight to beat the first black heavyweight champion, just like Obama is the first black president.
If you use the phrase ironically, like someone at Matt’s blog pointed out The Chevy Volt is the great white hope of GM, it works. You are aware of the cultural history of the phrase, it refers to a depserate, hail mary move that is likely to fail.
The way this congresswoman used it can only be interpreted two ways, 1) She is being racist and saying the GOP needs a whtie male to rise up and save them from Obama 2) That she is so culuturally unaware that she has no idea what it actaully means.
I think it is #2, which in and of itself says a lot about why the GOP is where they are. And I would argue that being a politician who cares so little about minorities that you don’t even bother to learn their cultural history in this country is a form of benign racism.
ruemara
@flukebucket:
You may have been watching the edited versions. Many Loony Toons characters not only had black face, but their hair would be pulled out into little braids, sometimes their lips would be enlarged. This was cut out in many updated versions sometime around the 70’s.
Cyrus
@Michael D.:
Well, we’re reduced to warring anecdotes here, but I think I’ve always known the racial meaning of the phrase. I think I learned it in some preview for or article about this movie, and as cleek pointed out, it was used unironically and uncritically through the 1960s at least.
Midnight Marauder
@Michael D.:
I’m just saying that she may not have been aware of the origins of the phrase. I’ve heard the term “Great white hope” used in the same context as is used when you say you’re looking for your “white knight”
That’s all I’m saying.
And all I’m saying is that it’s pretty obvious that you haven’t given this thread even a cursory glance, otherwise you would have noticed that pretty much everyone acknowledges that she probably wasn’t aware of the origins of the phrase (Hell, Jenkins herself said as much in her state apologizing). Nonetheless, her ignorance of the phrase’s historical origins and, as Brachiator mentioned, “common usage”, is unfortunate, but it serves as no excuse for her rhetoric, and the more troubling behavior of her party at large.
And as for using “Great White Hope” and “White Knight” interchangeably, yeah, I can understand that. I think the two terms have basic similarities that would let you get away with that, but for the most part, the terms represent two VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. When people hear “White Knight”, they’re probably thinking about “Through the Looking Glass” or wild and crazy times in medieval Europe.
They probably aren’t going to think racism, you know, since the term wasn’t created by people having a wild fit of Evil Darkies Must Pay syndrome.
And again, just because you’ve heard the two terms used interchangeably, doesn’t mean that they’re being used in an accurate fashion.
That’s all I’m saying.
binzinerator
@ellaesther:
ellaesther you cut them way too much slack. What Jenkins said is exactly what a bigot says when they speak their mind. She just forgot to translate it into dogwhistle.
Which brings me to the big problem another of your comments:
Jesus H. Christ on a popsicle stick. Where have you been the past 40 years?
The GOP actually DOES give consideration for what their words it might mean to anyone else. Their whole frikkin’ electoral strategy since Nixon has been rooted in carefully phrased ‘dog whistle’ appeals to racists.
Lee Atwater said:
The GOP goes and has gone to great lengths to find ways to say things and produce images that might seem stupidass or at best inconsiderate but their racist base will understand clear as a bell. And when called on it, they shield themselves by calling for the benefit of the doubt, (and you thoughtfully offer it to them) or they hide behind the dodge of ‘hey no one can know the historical meaning of that so therefore it can’t be racist’.
Like hell they don’t know. Jeepers, ellaesther, this kind of shit is a pattern.
ruemara
@Morbo:
Beats her husband, you say? Hm, I could get behind that.
Michael D.
@Eric K: As it happens, I am very aware of African American cultural history, so much so that I often make it the subject of many of my vacations and weekend road trips – like the four days I did from Friday till Monday last weekend in Charleston and then in Savannah. I didn’t go to Charleston (where I spent most of my time) to party. I went there to learn. This trip was specifically to spend a few days learning about how Charles Pinckney, who represented South Carolina at the Constitutional Convention, treated his slaves using the “task system” as opposed to the “gang system.”
While I won’t profess to have experienced it, I would put my knowledge of African American culture, history, and traditions up against most peoples’ anyday – INCLUDING African Americans. And, I’m sorry, but I didn’t know the term “Great white hope” had racial connotations until I googled it after reading John’s post.
So now I am a benign racist. Nice. I wonder if my very brown Indonesian partner know this about me?
Midnight Marauder
@Michael D.:
As it happens, I am very aware of African American cultural history, so much so that I often make it the subject of many of my vacations and weekend road trips – like the four days I did from Friday till Monday last weekend in Charleston and then in Savannah.
I would put my knowledge of African American culture, history, and traditions up against most peoples’ anyday – INCLUDING African Americans. And, I’m sorry, but I didn’t know the term “Great white hope” had racial connotations until I googled it after reading John’s post.
…Wow. Just wow. That has to be the greatest display of hubris I have seen in a very long time.
And for the record, champ, you just put your “knowledge of African American culture, history, and traditions” against a Black (I ain’t from Africa, sir) American. And you lost. Badly. Kind of like James J. Jeffries.
Seriously. I am literally floored by your “confession” of having SO MUCH knowledge about black people in this country, and then being entirely ignorant and unaware of such a historically relevant, prominent, and divisive term.
You, sir, have some incredibly brass balls after bragging about that fact. Wow.
SGEW
?
Ok, so now I’m really confused. Is this a generational thing? A geographical, east coast vs. west coast or northern vs. southern thing? It probably isn’t a boxing fan thing, because I know fuck all about boxing. Why did Ta-Nehisi (and his commenters) know about it, but Michael D. didn’t?
Why did so many people instantly react by saying “oh my goodness, that sure is racially insensitive!” while so many other (assumedly non-racist) people didn’t even blink?
Michael D.
@SGEW: Perhaps it’s because I am a Canadian and didn’t see the movie?
SGEW
@Michael D.:
Oh right. Canadian.
. . .
But surely that can’t be the only reason, right?
(And hey! Some of my best friends are Canadian!)
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@Michael D.:
That’s like saying that, because I studied the Irish Potato Famine, I’ve got a clue about The Troubles.
As my moniker here, and elsewhere, hints at, I spend a lot of time invested in Middle Eastern subjects. I know a LOT about, say, Ottoman history. I can tell you in brutal detail about how, say, a 16th Century Ottoman man would have dressed, the jobs he might have had, how he might have worshiped, etc.
That doesn’t give me carte blance to babble about modern-day Turkey, or even to discuss how the Ottoman Empire was recast into the Turkish Republic. For that, I turn to my Turkish friends, who have not just the scholarly, distant knowledge, but also know something (not all, since everyone has a viewpoint) about the culture “from the inside.”
It’s great that you are interested and invested in learning about the past of African-American culture. I applaud that.
But that doesn’t mean you know jack-shit about what it’s like to be in that culture today. And before you go pulling the “but I know what your lives were like 100 years ago” BS, consider that the topic in question is within my Grandmother’s memory. And you bet I’ll listen to her opinions, having lived through the era in question, over yours, no matter how scholarly or insightful.
And the fact that you think having an Indonesian partner means you’re “not racist,” somehow, only underscores your lack of knowledge on racial issues in general, and specifically how these issues affect the very group you’re claiming to have knowledge of. Does loving a woman suddenly makes you a Feminist?
MikeN
I live in Topeka, KS (her district) and while it’s fun to use her as a punching bag, I think she just didnt know what she was saying.
It is likely that someone as self absorbed and incurious as her had quite literally never considered what a “great white hope” was…historically speaking.
For Jenkins…it’s just a mindless aphorism burped up for the cameras in a weird, and awkward attempt at drama and oratory.
Midnight Marauder
@Michael D.:
Perhaps it’s because I am a Canadian and didn’t see the movie?
Wait.
You’re a Canadian and you were just bragging about how you know more about black history and culture in America than actual black people who live in AMERICA?
Un.fucking.believable.
Michael D.
@Midnight Marauder: I was reacting to this statement from Eric:
My point was that you can know an awful lot, as I do, about a group’s culture and traditions and miss something. It’s not hubris. It’s a response to someone who accuses someone who doesn’t know every little thing about black people of benign racism.
I now KNOW about “Great White Hope” you see? I read this post and looked it up. That’s how people get educated. And now, this Representative knows what it means and won’t use it again, I assume.
To be lumped into a group who didn’t know about the movie and be accused of benign racism is absurd. Fortunately, I’m a pretty open guy who is about as non-racists as you can get. So I will continue to get to know other cultures and learn more, and have fun weekends doing so.
On the other hand, you might have people who are less open minded than me who are trying to learn more. But because you have accused them of racism, they probably get ticked off and say “Fuck ’em. I’m not even gonna TRY to educate myself about different cultures, because if I even slip up once, I’m going to be called a racist.”
Fortunately, I’m not that person. And I can handle being accused of demonstrating hubris. Hopefully you can handle being told that, just because you happen to be a black guy who’s not from Africa, doesn’t mean you know shit about your culture and traditions.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@SGEW:
This is just a wild guess, but the most innocent interpretation I can come up with is that if you are accumstomed to thinking of “white” as definitionally normative, then when it is used as a modifier in a sentence you tend to parse it as not having any semantic content at all; instead of being a modifier it is just a placeholder word acting like a non-verbal vocalization (“ahhh”, “um”). So the speaker says “Great White Hope” and what you hear is “Great something Hope” where the “something” is just noise, it drops out and doesn’t even register with you.
I’m not sure I buy that this explanation applies to the original speaker in this controversy, but it may explain why some of the commentariat here have never internalized the racial meaning in this phrase before.
YellowJournalism
@SGEW: I think because it truly is a mixture of people who know and understand the term’s history and people who really don’t but often use it or have heard it used. I know about it because I’m a history buff and pay attention to these things. Most people I grew up with would not know the background, but probably have used the term in a non-racial way. Doesn’t excuse the use here, though, or its implications. I suspect she should have known better. I am glad to see she apologized.
This whole thread reminds me of the “porch monkey” exchange in Clerks 2.
Randal Graves: Since when did porch monkey suddenly become a racial slur?
Dante Hicks: When ignorant racists started saying it a hundred years ago!
Randal Graves: Oh, bullshit! My grandmother used to call me a porch monkey all the time when I was a kid because I’d sit on the porch and stare at my neighbors!
Dante Hicks: Despite the fact that your grandmother might’ve used it as a term of endearment for you, it’s still a racial slur! It’d be like your grandmother calling you a little kike!
Randal Graves: Oh, it is not. Plus, my grandmother had nothing but the utmost respect for the Jewish community. When I was a kid she told me to always treat the Jewish kids well, or they’d put the sheni curse on me.
Brachiator
@Michael D.:
That’s odd. I don’t recall anyone here saying that ignorance automatically equals benign racism. Project much?
And even the choice of romantic partners does not always defend against even overt racism. Ask Strom Thurmond.
Also, a point of information. Are you saying that the play and film, “The Great White Hope” was never shown in Canada?
Also, how is your ignorance of the term, as a Canadian, supposed to say anything about the ignorance of an American politician?
By the way, illuminating background on the Johnson – Jeffries fight can be found in the Ken Burns PBS documentary, “Unforgivable Blackness: The Rise and Fall of Jack Johnson.”
http://www.pbs.org/unforgivableblackness/
Svensker
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Why in hell would anyone try to teach a pig to sing?
Why the heck not? Just imagine if it worked!
RedKitten
Pretty much. I’ll confess that I hadn’t though much of the meaning behind the phrase either, and didn’t realize that it had racist connotations. I just figured that the term was using “white” as a synonym for “bright”, or “shining”, sort of in the same vein as the “Great White Way” being used to refer to the lights of Broadway. Hence, I figured that “Great White Hope” meant that the thing being referred to was a shining beacon of hope, as it were.
Of course, now that I know the actual origin of the phrase, I’m really embarrassed to admit that I’ve used it. But, we live, we learn, and we move forward, right?
Michael D.
@Woodrow “asim” Jarvis Hill:
I wasa providing one example of something I did last weekend.
I could provide many more examples of things I do to learn about African American culture as it exists in the modern world, but I would dumped on for that, too, I imagine.
So probably best I end it here. You can’t have an honest argument with people who’ve already judged the hell out of you anyway.
I’ll just log off now. It’s time to go upstairs and put that uppity brown guy I love in his place. Or better yet, spend the next few years learning everything that exists about Indonesian culture, traditions, and modern life, lest he find out in a few years that I was a benign racist all along.
Good day.
YellowJournalism
@Brachiator: Also, a point of information. Are you saying that the play and film, “The Great White Hope” was never shown in Canada?
I’m sure there are a lot of people who use the phrase “I coulda been a contender” who have never heard of, let alone seen “On the Waterfront”. Hell, there’s people who’ve used “Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn” and don’t know that it’s from “Gone with the Wind”. I’m sure “The Great White Hope” has been shown in Canada, but that doesn’t mean a lot of people are familiar with it or the true meaning of the term.
Again, doesn’t excuse the use here, but it makes you understand where people like Michael D. are coming from. I really think attacking each other over what basically comes down to cultural misunderstandings isn’t helping things at all. But that’s what we do best!
YellowJournalism
God, I miss the blockquote function.
Midnight Marauder
@Michael D.:
That’s fine, but I think the point you missed in Eric’s comment was the “in this country” line (a la Frank Costello in “The Departed”).
I don’t doubt that you know a lot about black history and culture in this country, and kudos to you for having that at your disposal. However, you have to see where the accusation of hubris comes in when you just come sweeping in to the discussion, spout off nonsense that has already been addressed at length, and then fall back on some bullshit (yes, that’s exactly what it is) like this:
While I won’t profess to have experienced it, I would put my knowledge of African American culture, history, and traditions up against most peoples’ anyday – INCLUDING African Americans.
You had literally just been informed of a MAJOR blind spot in this knowledge, and your response was to talk about how you still knew so much that you would put that knowledge up against people of the actual culture you know so much about.
My point was that you can know an awful lot, as I do, about a group’s culture and traditions and miss something. It’s not hubris. It’s a response to someone who accuses someone who doesn’t know every little thing about black people of benign racism.
Sure, knowing a lot about a group’s culture and traditions and missing something is not hubris. However, responding to that oversight by coming back and saying that you still know more about someone’s culture than the actual members of the culture is, indeed, a bold move. If you can’t see the hubris contained in that kind of behavior, then that is truly a shame.
On the other hand, you might have people who are less open minded than me who are trying to learn more. But because you have accused them of racism, they probably get ticked off and say “Fuck ‘em. I’m not even gonna TRY to educate myself about different cultures, because if I even slip up once, I’m going to be called a racist.”
Good think that’s not what happened, right? Who here accused anyone of racism, or are you just making shit up right now? Because I’m leaning towards the “making shit up right now” option. What if, instead of accusing them of racism, you just pointed out that they were seemingly unaware of a major element of United States history, and as such, should probably read up on said history and be a bit more careful in their rhetoric from here on out? How does that tickle your delicate sensibilities?
Fortunately, I’m not that person. And I can handle being accused of demonstrating hubris. Hopefully you can handle being told that, just because you happen to be a black guy who’s not from Africa, doesn’t mean you know shit about your culture and traditions.
Yes, I can handle being told that just being a black guy from Africa doesn’t mean I some kind of end-all, be-all repository of historical and cultural knowledge of black americans. But then again, that’s another strawman you’re setting up, isn’t it? Are you now claiming that I am the one who is ignorant of black culture and traditions in this country?
Or maybe you’re just a little upset that someone responded to your little challenge (remember: “I would put my knowledge of African American culture, history, and traditions up against most peoples’ anyday – INCLUDING African Americans”?) and made you look like an idiot.
binzinerator
@Midnight Marauder:
There are white people who do not think ‘n#gger’ has any racial connotations either.
I’m serious. I’ve met some. And their take was, they call black people n#ggers because that is what they are. They don’t see how it makes them racist to use it because anyone can see n#ggers are inferior people and in their view they are simply telling it like it is. They are being factual not biased.
Midnight Marauder
@binzinerator:
There are white people who do not think ‘n#gger’ has any racial connotations either.
I’m serious. I’ve met some. And their take was, they call black people n#ggers because that is what they are. They don’t see how it makes them racist to use it because anyone can see n#ggers are inferior people and in their view they are simply telling it like it is. They are being factual not biased.
And I can understand that kind of pseudo-cognitive dissonance, but I think the exposition in your second paragraphs indicates what’s really happening in that situation.
It’s not they the word doesn’t have any “racial connotations” to them. It’s loaded with racial connotations. It’s just that it’s a standard part of their way of life. It’s almost like drinking water when you’re thirsty, eating when you’re hungry, or going to sleep when you’re tired. Black people are just niggers to them. That’s it. That’s just how things are and how things are always going to be. However, that does mean that the word possesses no racial connotations in their own little mixed-up racist world.
It’s still loaded with racial connotations; they just chose to normalize them.
bago
@Tsulagi: Pulling the lever for the porn star does have a certain ring to it, you kow?
Eric K
Michael.
What part of I was talking about an American Politician from Iowa and not you a Canadian did you miss?
I read on Matt’s blog that her district is 12% black and 20% hispanic. One would think part of her job description is understanding the history of minorities in America a little better than a Canadian does.
Eric K
Yellow Journalism,
Again we’re not talking about what Michael or any other average joe blow should know, we’re talking about what a politician and a political party who hopes to have minorities vote for them should know.
gwangung
@Michael D.:
You are, at best, clueless. More likely, you are far too arrogant to admit your ignorance and work to remedy it. And most certainly, you are being willfully ignorant.
This is from your own words, that you posted on this thread. If you posses even a scrap of wisdom, you would work on your shortcomings.
When many different people are pointing this out to you, perhaps, indeed, the flaw is in you.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@YellowJournalism: I want to make it clear, here.
I’m not attacking Michael over “cultural misunderstandings”. His knowledge, or lack thereof, about the phrase “Great White Hope” neither pads my wallet nor agitates my heart.
What frustrated me was the arrogance. To say you’re well-studied in African-American history, but that you’d missed the etymology of that phrase, strikes me as a massive gap in one’s studies.
To then underline said arrogance with the phrase I quoted in my initial reply actually hurt me, personally. I’m sorry, to some extent, that Michael D. felt my response was harsh. And I note, again, I praised, and continue to praise, his efforts.
But this is still extant history for many in the African-American community. It’s not the subject of dusty history books quite yet. I have no doubt that Michael D. knows more about, say, what happened in many aspects of African-American history than many. But that’s not the same thing as knowing it from a cultural aspect — which he acknowledged in his initial post, and which I felt he threw away when he said he knew more about AA history than most AAs, and then added on his lover, who is PoC. But that, again, would be like me saying I know Irish culture because I’ve dated 2 Irish women, listen to Irish music, and have actually done Irish crafts and some history.
I don’t. I simply don’t. To claim it would be unwise, and potentially offensive to many. And that’s my point.
He might know more about the history. I don’t know, but it’s likely he has done the studies in a lot of this. But there’s a line between comments like the majority of “I didn’t know” I’ve seen here, and the kind of “I know more about this culture than the African-Americans invested in it, so let me tell you all how to take this” comment Michael just made.
I gave a personal, detailed example of how I watch for such issues. I’m not trying to come from a holier-than-thou POV. But neither am I accepting that I just have to turn over because Michael thinks I’m accusing him of being a racist.
Midnight Marauder
@Woodrow “asim” Jarvis Hill:
What frustrated me was the arrogance. To say you’re well-studied in African-American history, but that you’d missed the etymology of that phrase, strikes me as a massive gap in one’s studies.
Bingo.
YellowJournalism
@Eric K: And I said what she said was inappropriate. And you can’t say we’re not talking about what average joes should know because people pretty much are talking about that at this point.(That’s a mouthfull!) Besides, some of us just think this is an interesting topic: the way certain phrases and depictions in our culture are offensive in their history but seem not to be by the average person.
Jenkins said something really stupid, as someone else pointed out, akin to the President saying the thing about the Special Olympics. (Should have known better in both cases. Probably said it thinking it was harmless but it wasn’t. Apologized.) Others were misunderstanding why some of us would find what Jenkins said really offensive in the context it was given. Instead of just merely correcting people, some of you guys are ready to take off heads over an incident that is really over and done with at this point.
If you want to be worried about things that are being said and done in the name of racial insensitivity and outright bigoted racism in regard to the GOP, there are a lot of bigger fish to fry than Jenkins. Jenkins is a very insignificant symptom of a larger problem not just in the GOP but much of society.
YellowJournalism
@Woodrow “asim” Jarvis Hill: And I agree with you on the comments about knowing African American history better. I just wasn’t touching that part because I think enough people already made some really good points about it.
Eric K
Yellow Journalism,
Who is saying off with anyone’s head?
People are arguing with Michael because he was being an arrogant dick and who doesn’t love hoisting someone like him on his own petard:-)
Your right the GOP has a lot of bigger issues with minorities than Jenkins lack of understasnding about where Great White Hope comes from.
But my point was that these smaller incidents are symptoms of the larger problem of them being completely out of touch with the history of minorities in this country. My point was that educating herself about this stuff is a first step toward’s Jenkins being a better rep for her balck constituents. Sure it is a little thing, a little thing here a little thing there and pretty soon you actually understand where they are coming from.
SGEW
Ok, let me kind of babble here:
I’ve known several (white) people who know much more than I do about the history, language, and cultural heritage of my own particular (non-white) genetic ethnicities. Hell, besides kitchen vocabulary, I don’t even know more than half a dozen words of any of the “mother” languages (which include “no,” “grandmother,” and, most notably, “be quiet!” Thanks Mom!).
But I have personally encountered overt racism directed against me. And they haven’t.
I believe that a lot of the discussion of “race relations” in America is not about quantitative knowledge. It’s subjective. It feels different, y’all. Especially when you’re a child.
I don’t know if this adds anything to this thread, but a great deal of the hurt expressed is precisely because of this difference in qualitative knowledge. White people are hurt when they believe they’ve been accused of racism – even when they haven’t actually been accused of being racist! Non-white people are hurt when they’re exposed to racially insulting language – even when the language expressed isn’t actually racist in intent! And when you’re hurting, you lash out, and when you lash out, you make it all worse.
So I’m going to try and give more benefit of the doubt to white people about certain words and phrases. I honestly didn’t know that there were a lot of people who had no clue about the ugly history of the phrase “great white hope.” Rep. Jenkins has apologized, and I’m going to accept it and move on.
[B.O.B. is exempt from this benefit, as he has openly acknowledged that he is racist and sexist. So fuck him.]
Midnight Marauder
@YellowJournalism:
Jenkins said something really stupid, as someone else pointed out, akin to the President saying the thing about the Special Olympics. (Should have known better in both cases. Probably said it thinking it was harmless but it wasn’t. Apologized.)
I see where you’re going with the comparison, but again, I think something like that only works in the most basic sense of the comparison. That being, yes, they both said something they probably should have known better about saying. But the reasons why they should have known better are vastly different. An unfortunate, off-color joke about the special olympics in no way comes close to what Jenkins said.
If you want to be worried about things that are being said and done in the name of racial insensitivity and outright bigoted racism in regard to the GOP, there are a lot of bigger fish to fry than Jenkins. Jenkins is a very insignificant symptom of a larger problem not just in the GOP but much of society.
I disagree with this. Sure, there are bigger fisher to fry than Jenkins, but doesn’t make her any less deserving of the scrutiny and derision she’s received over this. Jenkins’ behavior and rhetoric is actually a significant symptom of the GOP and its problem with minority outreach. As someone just pointed out a few posts ago, “her district is 12% black and 20% hispanic.”
I don’t think those folks would agree that her behavior is an “insignificant symptom,” particularly when said behavior leads to standard GOP Obstructionist Asshole tactics on legislation and issues that could dramatically improve the life of her constituents.
Midnight Marauder
@SGEW:
So I’m going to try and give more benefit of the doubt to white people about certain words and phrases.
Unless they’re Republican officials, elected or otherwise.
They lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago.
Randall
@Midnight Marauder:
Michael D just needs his own special perspective on things
Gus
I’m more likely to give Rep. Jenkins a pass. I’m willing to believe her statement merely reflects ignorance, not malice. I’m still surprised how many people didn’t see a racial connection to the phrase.
SGEW
@Midnight Marauder: They’re still human beings, and deserve equal understanding and compassion for their very human failings, even if they have that scarlet R next to their name. This is outside and beyond politics or partisanship. I will criticize people’s politics and policies, but I should try to abstain from criticizing their inner hearts or motivations until I have a great deal more evidence. This is the first thing I think I’ve ever heard about Rep. Jenkins, so, this time, she gets the benefit of the doubt.
But if Rush Limbaugh (a well documented racist) said it, maybe not.
Jen R
@YellowJournalism:
You can still blockquote, you just have to type the tags manually.
Punchy
What is this supposed to mean?
SGEW
@Punchy: Racism without negative consequences? Like being racist against Martians, I guess. Damn dirty little Greenies! They took our jerbs!
Midnight Marauder
@SGEW:
They’re still human beings, and deserve equal understanding and compassion for their very human failings, even if they have that scarlet R next to their name. This is outside and beyond politics or partisanship. I will criticize people’s politics and policies, but I should try to abstain from criticizing their inner hearts or motivations until I have a great deal more evidence. This is the first thing I think I’ve ever heard about Rep. Jenkins, so, this time, she gets the benefit of the doubt.
I agree with those sentiments whole-heartedly, but at the same time, people on that end of the spectrum have spouted off such knowingly ignorant nonsense about any and all subjects that at some point, you have to draw a line.
From the beginning with Jenkins, I was of the opinion that she probably just didn’t understand the historical concepts of the phrase. So I gave her the benefit of the doubt to some extent. No accusations of racism or anything more nefarious. Just that she was stupid.
But there’s a larger point here, which is how long are we going to just give elected officials–regardless of party affiliation–“the benefit of the doubt” about just saying whatever blatantly insensitive rhetoric they want.
Yeah, I don’t think Jenkins is a racist or a bigot. But I think she exhibited that she’s so tone deaf to the political climate of the country that her constituents (of all races, but particularly minorities) should be concerned about her ability to function in a sane and rational fashion.
gwangung
The first time, no problem. And since she apolgized quite nicely, she’d get a second pass from me. And if she continues to stumble, but is humble about it, she’ll continue to get a pass from me. Because we’re all ignorant about something, and we all can’t be studying all the time.
But if you get defensive about it and not acknowledge your shortcomings or blame it on others, then I’m not going to do that.
Little Macayla's Friend
At the Kansas City Star comments and elsewhere, a pattern of saying it doesn’t mean Jenkins wanted a white to defeat a black because of skin color, but no suggestions as to why “hope” was preceded by “white”, only that it just meant hope. Likewise, when Jenkins says she meant ‘a bright light’, was she remembering thinking ‘a bright light’, but “great white hope” came out of her mouth? Does she herself know why?
Even a passing aquaintance with the title of the movie and story, one advertisement, and it sounds like a story about racism is highly likely.
I was once asked, sincerely, if English was my second language because I know that more than one thought occurs before I speak, many aren’t worth saying, situation and listener can change my intended meaning, etc., etc. After weeks of ‘racist’ being used at places like Fox against Sotomayor and Obama, a Republican U.S. Representative in a public forum has an obligation to use of a few extra seconds of her time to consider the meaning of her words before speaking.
She now has the benefit of hindsight. I don’t see her press release at her web page – http://lynnjenkins.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=22§iontree=21,22 . If she really was blissfully ignorant and actually wants to help end racist expressions, did she take advantage of her moment of national attention to explain to people the racist origins of the phrase as cleek and SGEW did at comments 10 and 12? I’d give her the benefit of a doubt only if she did. Again, she’s a U.S. Representative.
Sorry if too long, but it’s a higher priority to me to, e.g., prevent children absorbing that kind of ugly language. She has her ‘teachable moment’ (as in here -http://k6educators.about.com/od/educationglossary/g/gteachmoment.ht, not here – http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=teachable%20moment&defid=4146841 ).
Steeplejack
@flukebucket:
Agreed. As a longtime student of the collected oeuvre of Yosemite Sam et al., I’m pretty sure it’s gunpowder. It’s one of the eternal tropes of the genre, like when you get crushed by a safe or run over by a steamroller you’re paper thin, but then in the next scene you’re three-dimensional again. Hey, you get blown up, you face gets black with gunpowder. It even happened to Daffy Duck, and he’s black.
Steeplejack
@binzinerator, @Midnight Marauder:
You do not have to recognize that you are a racist to be a racist.
Steeplejack
@gwangung:
I didn’t think her apology was that great. She used the “if anyone was offended” sidestep, rather than forthrightly apologizing for what she said.
joe from Lowell
OK, the Canadian guy gets a pass. How is he supposed to know anything about this stuff? He has to study black people in museums.
Jenkins isn’t Canadian. No excuse.
SiubhanDuinne
@Midnight Marauder:
they both said something they probably should have known better about saying. But the reasons why they should have known better are vastly different. An unfortunate, off-color joke about the special olympics in no way comes close to what Jenkins said.
One major difference, it seems to me, is that Obama was essentially making fun of himself in, admittedly, unfortunate and offensive terms. But his line about Special Olympics was directed at himself, not at anyone else.
In Jenkins’ case, she was addressing a political rally and as such, her line about a “Great White Hope” was essentially a call to action (in unfortunate and offensive terms). About as innocent as Henry II and his “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?” line.
SiubhanDuinne
@joe from Lowell: Actually there are a lot of African Canadians. By which I mean, Canadians of African descent (some of them descended from the slaves or free servants of early white settlers, some from the “Black Loyalists,” some who escaped north on the Underground Railroad, some via the Caribbean and South America, and some who emigrated to Canada directly from African countries.
Eric K
Siubhan,
True, but were giving Michael a pass here since we’re talking about the issue of a US politician knowing about the cultural history of minorities in the US
omniscience
@Michael D.:
Your name isn’t Michael van Derleun by any chance?