There sure has been a lot of hand-wringing today, hasn’t there?
A commentor on an earlier post complained:
Believe me, I would love to have a realist-libertarian party that I could vote for.
Then go run for your local school board, or find a similarly-minded Realist-Libertarian you can support to do so. Srsly. The “Permanent Republican Majority”, such as it was/is, came about because the Republican true believers spent 30-plus years finding & supporting anti-science school board candidates and anti-choice city council candidates and anti-government state drainage commission auditor candidates. These tiny community nuisance larvae, nurtured by wingnut welfare and protected by low-information-voter apathy, eventually pupated in state legislatures, before emerging as full-blown leeches, ticks, and lampreys battening on our misfortunate nation’s lifeblood during the anti-Clinton congressional “Class of 1994” and the Bush/Cheney Kleptocracy. (It also bound the sane conservatives into a death pact with the Insane Klowns Posse, but that’s their problem to solve, or not.)
The Realist-Libertarians — and their counterparts on the other axis, like the Greens — believe they can find a magical all-purpose Savior Candidate, like Ralph Nader, whose enormous logical appeal and sheer personal charisma will make all us disaffected voters smack our foreheads and change our party registration. And also possibly bring in a whole! new! wave! of former non-voters enchanted by the MESSAGE, which has never before been so brilliantly embodied. This is like trying to change the Titanic’s direction by tying Leonardo DiCaprio to the bowsprit — no matter how much media attention it may attract, the laws of political physics will not work in your favor.
Of course Green and Libertarian candidates do sometimes run for one of those humble bottom-level civic offices, and even win. But all too often, prospective third-party Political Leaders leave the field, if not the party, after their first loss. The voters are too stupid, apathetic, or abused to appreciate one’s political genius, so they don’t deserve a second chance. Or the Entrenched Interests are too evil and/or powerful to understand that immediately surrendering their picayune personal fiefdoms to the New Perfect Goal is the only logical choice if they are not to be swept into the dustbin of history. Compromising, horse-trading, persuading other individuals (many of them self-involved greedy hacks and nutbags of dubious intellect and no obvious achievements) to vote in favor of the New Paradigm is tedious and soul-soiling.
It’s much easier to stomp off the field and then sit on the sidelines bitching, but Rush Limbaugh only achieved his current status because thousands of other Republicans were willing to expend their efforts in the actual political game. Even President Obama’s “overnight” success came as the culmination of many years of not-obvious-to-the-mainstream-media work and planning on his part and that of hundreds of other Democratic professionals and committed amateurs.
*****
On a semi-related topic, I found this particular one-star review
of Duck for President entertaining:
“America has a broken electoral system, a polarized electorate, and a dysfunctional Congress, yet somehow this book is amusing?
The book could be construed as funny if we ignore the fact that we have a representative form of government. When we remind ourselves that we’re a self-governing society, we are reminded that what we now call Duck is what we used to think of as a citizen in public service.
In a representative democracy we are all Ducks. And while it may not be fair to judge a light-hearted children’s book on the basis of underlying sociopolitical assumptions, it’s our responsibility as citizens to accept that we are ultimately responsible for the what’s wrong in government, not just teach our children to blame it on Duck. We have met the Duck, and it is us.”
FormerSwingVoter
“realist-libertarian”
…
I would mock the very concept, but all the challenge is gone.
matoko_chan
Well…at least we know why this is happening…..
the Crazy Tree is blooming again.
matoko_chan
And its even older than that…..it goes back to Kylon of Croton and the first wingnuts….Kylon was a pissed off plutocrat (elite) that got rejected from Pythagoras’ School for Rulers. So Kylon raised a (non-elite) mob of local
teabaggersfarmers to protest his rejection by chopping up the teachers with scythes and burning down the school.We will get through this too, AnneLaurie.
Elie
While I allow and respect that there is a true adult libertarian party/point of view in the US, IMHO, what passes as libertarian in our current debates seems more adolescent than espousing any liberational thinking…
The flat “against all government” stand that the recent fad libertarians uphold is adolescent in that these folks benefit from all the regulatory and protective legislation that others have fought to protect their health and wellbeing. But rather than to honestly acknowledge this, they get hung up on putting mustaches on Obama’s pictures, tea parties talking about “Live Free or Die” — What does that even mean in a practical way???
There is no doubt a valid and important issue at the root of adult libertarian views on spending and the role of government on health care. But does packing heat to a town hall meeting translate to the libertarian linkage between health care and the right to tote your gun?
There just seems to me to be a chaotic mix of satisfying id impulses to feel superior and some nominal attempt to rationalize why government should not do anything except arm armies — that said while enjoying the blessings of government regulation for clean air, water, safe food, traffic safety at stop lights and a host of everyday but important regulations promulgated that make all of our lives better.
The adolescent comes out, to get to my point in that, just while your teenager derides living in your home, and pushes back on your concerns for their safety, they tacitly accept living in safety while all the while pushing back in defiance. That said, no libertarians want to give up their clean water and sewage treatment — at least that is my guess…
JK
The Bush Cheney Administration was as much a kakistocracy as it was a kleptocracy.
When I think of libertarians, I think of Megan McArdle, Nick Gillespie, and Glenn Reynolds and they’re as full of shit or even more full than any conservatives I can think of.
Ash Can
Any time Kevin Gregg wants to stop handing out wins to other teams like dinner mints, it’s just bloody well god damned PEACHY with me.
hidflect
They can always move to that libertarian paradise Somalia if they lurv their philosophy so much.
JK
Obama Joker artist unmasked: A fellow Chicagoan
h/t http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/08/obama-joker-artist.html
“When posters portraying Pres Obama as the Joker from “Batman” began popping up around LA and other cities, the question many asked was, Who’s behind the image? Firas Alkhateeb, a senior history major at the Univ of Illinois, crafted the picture of Obama with the recognizable clown makeup. “After Obama was elected, you had all of these people who basically saw him as the second coming of Christ,” Alkhateeb said. “From my perspective, there wasn’t much substance to him.” “I abstained from voting in November,” he wrote in an e-mail. “Living in Illinois, my vote means close to nothing as there was no chance Obama would not win the state.” If he had to choose a politician to support, Alkhateeb said, it would be Ohio Dem Rep. Dennis Kucinich. Alkhateeb’s assessment of Obama: “In terms of domestic policy, I don’t think he’s really doing much good for the country right now,” he said.”
MBSS
@ anne laurie
you show the perspective from the realpolitik D, point of view. and i would agree that your “savior” characterization does have merit.
otoh, i would say watch out for both the libertarians and the greens in the future. i think there is a disaffected segment from each of the two major parties that will splinter off. i wouldn’t be surprised to see some substantial splintering in the next few years.
the libertarians have some scary kooks, and the greens have some space cadets. and you can quibble about each of the platforms. but R and D have done so poorly lately, that these parties will grow anyway.
JGabriel
Anne Laurie @ Top:
B-b-but … it worked for Jesse Ventura!
(Pause.)
We really are idiots, aren’t we?
.
Chuck Butcher
@Elie:
Ahahahahahahaha
Ash Can
P.S.: That review of Duck For President was evidently written by a Cubs fan who had just watched Kevin Gregg serve up another walk-off home run.
JGabriel
@JK:
It was a: Kleptokakistocracy!
.
Martin
I look forward to watching Obama sign the health bill (with public option). Everybody needs to chill the fuck out, he’s got this.
And I’m with FSV. The last realist-libertarians were hunter-gatherers. Kudos to anyone wanting to strike out on that path, but don’t expect too many others to sign on.
FormerSwingVoter
@Elie:
“While I allow and respect that there is a true adult libertarian party/point of view in the US”
Um…. have you talked to a libertarian? Like, ever?
MBSS
i must confess. my “quibble” with the libertarian party is the entire economic part of their platform. i just don’t agree with it in the least. but i could see how disaffected GOPers would find them attractive. and i would much rather deal with a libertarian on civil liberty issues. real libertarians are against war and want to legalize pot. pseudo-glibs will try to claim there is a libertarian argument for imperial expansion.
JGabriel
E. R. Bird @ Amazon:
Oh. My. God. Now we know where Sarah Palin got her platform!
.
Comrade Kevin
@Martin:
I certainly hope so, but I don’t have your confidence.
Also: A’s shut out Yankees.
Elie
Okay Okay — they ARE pretty weird, but I was trying to be as level as possible in assessing their core beliefs…granted, as I said in my post, most are adolescent in their psychology…oh Hell —
Its pretty scary to my mind that opposition the Democrats comes from an increasingly looney bunch of folks….Will we always feel as though we are in a mental ward trying to humor the residents and not illicit violent behavior? ! We have to tolerate crazy people wearing guns to public meetings and spouting off major crazy on the teevee and hope that they arent going to really act on any of this stuff.
williamc
I’m so queer, but can I ask your hand in marriage anyway, Annie Laurie?
Or at least your vocabulary’s hand? :c)
I feel like I have been shouting about “the vast right-wing conspiracy” (which you have neatly summed up for us all right here), for years and no one understands that they have infected everything, from dog-catcher (if the position hasn’t been privatized; here in the South, they are usually the loudest local right-wing gun-nut), up through the school-boards (“God created the world, not Darwin! Now, let me teach your kids…!”), determined to prove that the government is incompetent and corrupted by money, by proving themselves to be incompetent and corrupted by money.
And what really sucks is, it works!
Folks just keep lapping up this weak stew these right-wing nincompoops cook up (tax cuts increase revenue! (they don’t) deregulation and privatization will save you money! (it never does) s-ocialised anything is a raw deal for the working man, you might one day be rich and what then?! (you are unlikely to ever be even close to rich people, let alone rich yourself). And they never disappear even after they loose office because they f’ed up horribly and should be hanging their heads in shame somewhere, they get a new wingnut welfare job, preaching the very ideas that just got them kicked out of office, this time with an even better paycheck.
On the other side, the lowly progressive out there running for public office to help out some of the truly over-looked people in our society is marginalized by the news media as “not serious” because they won’t take corporate money, are impolite in the face of their corrupt opponents and corrupted fellow party-members, or won’t play the glad-handing-stay-inside-the-lines-to-get-ahead game with the corrupt pols they got into politics to bring down.
Libertarianism isn’t real. The way that even they describe it sounds like Anarchy and would eventually lead to corporate controlled government (the market left to its own devices eventually leads to monopoly). We should stop listening to these freakazoids like Ron Paul who spout off about their free-market ideas, when there is no one to balance him with. Which reminds me, when was the last time we heard from the only Communist in Congress?
Oh wait..
Brachiator
Wow. Talk about your oxymorons.
Well said. When it started to become painfully apparent that the Bush Administration was filled with incompetent cronies, I mentioned to a colleague that it was as though the federal government had been hijacked by an arrogant small town bunch of chamber of commerce rubes who were proud of the fact that they were largely ignorant.
What amazes me is that the worst GOP wingnuts want to double down on the kakistocracy in their devotion to Sarah Palin.
OT but related: I want to recommend, but not oversell, the recently released sci-fi drama, District 9. One of the motifs of the film, which reminds me of the Bush/Cheney regime, is how people say to themselves, “I am in power, therefore I must know what I am doing,” even as everything they do brings about disaster and misery.
Chuck Darwin
An honest question to my fellow Balloonites:
I am a supporter of universal health care. It is the most equitable, cost-effective, and public health-minded solution available.
However, my support for greater access to health care (at taxpayer expense) is shaken at times, and never more so than this past week.
I spent several evenings in the loathsome metropolis of Las Vegas at the Stratosphere Hotel. 24 hours a day the casino was packed with overweight or obese men and women, mostly in their 40s to 70s, smoking, drinking, and endlessly stuffing slot machines. I found the same at the Mirage where I went to for dinner. I was stunned to see the number of these people smoking, as I have had the pleasure to live in smoke-free cities in recent years.
Now, my rational self can ignore these persons as outliers or working class and/or middle class folks with little in their lives and little knowledge of health and financial issues. My emotional self, on the other hand, is repulsed, and the idea that universal health care will spend so much on people who treat their own well-being, as well as their pocketbooks, with such disdain, becomes tough to swallow.
Any thoughts on how to raise my spirits and reinvigorate my devotion to universal health care (preferably single-payer)? I kid a bit, but I have to believe a lot of people on the fence with respect to health care reform have such scenes in mind when they consider the issue.
Mark S.
@Elie:
I don’t really equate the teabaggers and the libertarians. Libertarians are for the most part socially liberal; I highly doubt most of the clowns yelling at the townhalls are for legalizing drugs or open borders.
I remember reading years ago an article in Reason where some guy was arguing against laws against corporations polluting because you could just sue the corporation that gave you cancer. I doubt that is view widely held among libertarians, but it is amazing how far they will go in their hatred of all regulations.
Martin
@Comrade Kevin:
The lines were drawn today. The House won’t pass a bill without the public option, the Senate won’t pass one with one. It’ll get attached to the budget and we’ll get what we want.
williamc
@ Mark S.
Silly man, you can’t sue to recoup all of the cancer damages money in Libertarian world…that’s what “tort reform” is supposedly all about to them. I heard some people railing on about that issue too as they were protesting a health care town hall I was at last week. Funny thing is, a lawsuit is the only way any of these crazy cracker rednecks (I talked to them, they were, sorry) will ever be rich.
Well that may not be true; their heretofore unknown rich Yankee uncle could leave them an inheritance in his will, which is also why they oppose the “death tax!” (something I also heard from the teabaggers at the townhall)
These people are idjits…
FormerSwingVoter
@Mark S.:
Once again: have you talked to a libertarian?
Seriously. I know some honest-to-god real-life libertarians, and it’s led me to believe that most of the problems with the current Republican party come from listening to these asshats. They say that they’re socially liberal, but most of them come up with wildly convoluted rationalizations any time they think they might prefer the Democrats over the Republicans – ask one of them how they feel about the whole choice-versus-life debate if you don’t believe me.
The entire libertarian political platform can be summed up as thus:
“WAAAAAH!!! I have daddy issues!”
Dustin
Ok, I’ll bite: What was so bad about Ventura other than that he pissed off our State party machines? He was sure as Hell better than our current joke of a governor.
Mayur
Bye bye, BJ.
“Realist-libertarian”? I can let less stupid shiat on Fark.
Good luck with your moronic enterprise. Enjoy giving a forum to wackjobs on whom the rest of the world wouldn’t spend a pixel.
Brachiator
@Mark S.:
Fixed.
This always struck me as the absolute dumbest aspect of libertarianism, their fetish for holding their philosophy to be more important than their own lives.
Mayur
Er, that would be “get.”
Rather a pathetic swan song, hm? Oh well. Stupid edit function. Doesn’t prevent me from saying:
“F you, Randroids!”
Comrade Kevin
@Mayur: LULZ, you think the people posting to, and reading, this blog are “Randroids”?
Fencedude
@Mayur:
A) Who are you?
B) Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
MTmofo
Damn. That was awesome, Anne Laurie. Fucking awesome.
Mark S.
John should make a LOL cat of Tunch saying this.
Uloborus
Again, I also think Obama’s playing this about as well as could be expected. He doesn’t seem to bet everything on one vote. He’s out there in the media again and again exposing the lies and being calm and reasonable and making the Dems look sane and the Republicans look lunatic. Moderates aren’t thrilled with him or the Dems, but they *really* hate what the Republicans are doing. Behind the scenes lord only knows.
We’ll get something. It won’t be all we want. The Dems are too fractured, because they’re *not* crazed with party unity like the GOP. It may be enough. I’ve heard some interesting explanations – here, no less – of the many things being proposed that would help, and help a lot. If it is or isn’t, it’s the first step, not the last.
srv
Anne, maybe you should go beat up the three or four liberaltarians at the GOS also.
Perry Como
I did that (city council) when I was in my early twenties and I ended up on the receiving end of local police harassment that you would not believe. Srsly. I can tell you stories.
Jim Crozier
Libertarians are too busy screaming “Ron Paul” out one side of their mouth and “Socialism” out their other to ever actually accomplish anything.
Why should people who think that government is the problem, rather than the solution, with everything ever be actually handed the reigns of government? Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Heresiarch
All right. All right. Here’s my attempt at realist-libertarianism:
Maybe the government could stop taking taxes out of my paycheck until it finds that billion fucking dollars it lost on a pallet in Iraq.
Please note that I am not a libertarian, I just feel that the above is not an unreasonable request.
Splitting Image
All you need to know is that David Frum is trying to find reasons for conservatives to support health care reform. He has fewer principles than anyone who ever lived and out of all the world’s pundits, he is the one who is least able to resist the urge to say whatever it takes to be on the winning side.
Anne Laurie
@JK:
Perfect!
To be fair, this guy says he doesn’t understand why “somebody” swiped his Photoshopjob and added the Socksialism tag, because that “doesn’t make sense”. But he reminds me that I don’t regret throwing hurtful phrases like “useful idiot” at certain self-proclaimed third-party voters back in 2001, either.
b-psycho
@Mark S.: There need to be a lot fewer “libertarians” who would argue that corporations were paragons of the free market to be left to do whatever, and a lot more libertarians that realize that the very existence of corporate status itself is an artificial distortion of the market. It’s that simple.
As for lack of interest in local positions, I have a theory on that, wanna hear it? Here it go:
The type of things that dedicated 3rd party types deeply care about tend to be inherently national issues. If your motivation for getting into politics, and your reason for rejecting the “major” parties, is the Big Issues, then bickering on the local school board or something seems like a waste.
I will be honest with you and say I personally find it hard to give a fuck about many local issues. Why? Because whether or not the potholes get filled strikes me as meaningless in comparison to the atrocity of the War on Drugs, the contradictions of capitalism w/r/t corporate power & massive regulatory capture (including the deliberate rigging of our financial system to save multimillionaires from the impact of their own fuckups), & the military-industrial complex. Most I muster in general locally is griping about sales tax when I’m buying groceries, and I only do that because money is tight these days.
Being forced to pay for yet more shiny new death machines and corporate welfare is a moral pain. The potholes are just an inconvenience, I can live with those.
JGabriel
Splitting Image:
Oh, c’mon. Frum is a garden variety GOP hypocrite, more so than some, less so than others. He’s certainly not a match for someone as unprincipled as Cheney or Bush, and they’re both among the living, much less anyone who ever lived.
.
Of Bugs and Books
Maybe OT (unless all of politics is now health insurance / care), but I think a few days ago someone was looking for an interactive comparison of systems by country:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997469
Necessarily over-simplified: e.g., under U.S. system, Financing – “Co-payments and deductibles highly variable in the private system”, but better than the chart comparing plan options from my own insurer for one person and one insurer. Personally (self-insured), I wish my insurer would plug in the numbers from my previous year’s (or years’) bills, premiums and deductibles into each plan, and make a bottom line (for all parties) comparison. Maybe a future job description for insurance workers if rescission, etc., is outlawed?
MikeJ
But at the same time, the people on the local school board decide if the textbooks will have science or voodoo. They decide if the school will interpret “zero tolerance” to mean strip searching 12 year olds. They’re the ones that decide if the senior class can stage a production of Rent even though it has (gasp) homosexuals in it.
There’s plenty of moral weight to the fights at the local level.
Of Bugs and Books
P.S. for comment #40:
at the top of the page “Data most recent available as of July 2008”, is explained further as meaning “Most data from 2005, the latest available” near the bottom of the page. Possibly very significant, as dates aren’t attached to each expenditure and each percentage, regulations change, etc.
Markus Nagler
@b-psycho:
Gravenstone
@Ash Can:
Checked the score when I got into work, Cubs up 1-0, bottom of the 9th. Check about 20 minutes later, Cubs lose 1-4. Bitter muttering and rolling of eyes, I think to myself,”great, Gregg gives up a grand slam”. No, of course it can’t be that simple. Dumbass first has to give up the game tying single, then he has to give up the game winning 3 run homer. But what the fuck are we supposed to do? Marmol is too flakey this season to trust in the 8th, let alone the 9th, Marshall is too indispensible in the earlier innings and as a spot starter. Is B. J. Ryan still floating around on that minor league contract? And of course, the fucking Cards don’t have the decency to lose once in a goddam while.
chiggins
The Realist-Libertarians—and their counterparts on the other axis, like the Greens—believe they can find a magical all-purpose Savior Candidate, like Ralph Nader, whose enormous logical appeal and sheer personal charisma will make all us disaffected voters smack our foreheads and change our party registration.
Okay, but I’d just like to point out that while liberal blogs everywhere are grousing about how disappointed they are in the Democratic Leadership for not doing what we elected them to do, namely getting health care done for us, the nuts are actually showing up at these townhalls, misinformed though they may be, and shutting down the process. They’re getting their hands dirty, because they give a shit.
If we were as angry about the reality of health care as they are about the utter bullshit they’re getting from Glenn Beck, et al, we oughta be outnumbering these fuckers 30-1.
So maybe you oughta be careful where you point that charge of Savior Candidate. Seems like there’s plenty of that to go around.
JGabriel
@Gravenstone: Is that really about baseball, or is it a metaphor for the Democrats?
.
Seanly
Isn’t that one of those logical fallacies Kirk would use to make alien computers self-destruct in Star Trek?
T. O'Hara
How is that working out? Daily Presidential Tracking Poll
54% Say Passing No Healthcare Reform Better Than Passing Congressional Plan
Voters Give GOP First-Time Lead on Health Care
Gravenstone
@T. O’Hara: And anything Rasmussen reports is to be taken seriously why, exactly? They skew hard Right 95% of the time, only veering toward centrism in the handful of weeks leading up to an election.
A Mom Anon
I’m confused.
If we end up with say,5 different parties,wouldn’t that mean a pretty small percentage of votes would be needed to win? I’m not sure that’s an improvement.(I know,the idiot minority is in charge now-or thinks they are,but I’m trying to think of a country where stuff is alot more normal than it is now)
Also,be aware of who is funding those third parties. Down here in the South,an awful lot of GOP/conservative money gets funneled into the Greens and Independants. I’ve seen GOP operatives at Green party meetings in the past. Just sayin’.
toro toro
“We have met the Duck, and it is us.”
…
That’s a keeper.
Tom G
Just out of curiosity, do any of you who laugh at the whole “libertarian” POV try to seek out additional blogs written by libertarians, realist or otherwise and actually read them on a regular basis?
I consider myself libertarian, but I stopped reading Instapundit a long time ago. Some blogs who I check daily include
Classically Liberal, at http://freestudents.blogspot.com/ and
Radley Balko, The Agitator at http://www.theagitator.com/ .
There are others as well.
I also read many more left-libertarian or anarchist blogs.
By the way, #38 b-psycho has an excellent point. Not ALL libertarians embrace unquestioningly the current corporate structure. Just the loud ones.
T. O'Hara
Oh, right, “the rightness of our positions is so blindingly obvious” that any poll to the contrary must be wrong.
Emma
Applause! Their holier-than-thou attitude is what drives me nuts about greens and libertarians both.
Sebastien
Must be a slow news day here in France, for one of our radio channel gave the representative of the Republican party in France (yep, they have one. Must be the hardest punishment they have short of getting the boot) a mike to express his concerns.
So in short (I just couldn’t stand listening to it but the short snips), the international press is way too complacent with Obama and we aren’t understanding the seriousness of the threat he poses. The health care debate was barely brushed about, as he probably was uneasy explaining to French how poor people were supposed to die quietly so that insurers could make money.
TR
OT slightly, but Rep. Anthony Weiner is on “Morning Joe” kicking the everloving shit out of Scarborough.
He’s turned the tables and said the question isn’t what benefit we get from a public option — 40% of Americans are currently on government-run health care (VA, Medicare/Medicaid, Indian Affairs, DOD) — but that the question should be what benefit do we get from private insurance being involved. He put it to Joe four straight times and Joe had *nothing*. Dead silence at one point.
They just went to commercial break. Saved by the bell.
Fulcanelli
@b-psycho: I agree with your theory. It’s the big stuff that makes me want to get involved, if I got involved at all, but I have no stomach for lying contests and ass kissing. But that may change as I get older, who knows…
Until we get business money out of our politics, we will have what we have now. The public is under siege. Corporate capitalism is eating the electorate. We have to find a way to clean house, and I admit I don’t know where to start, short of visiting the firearms shop up the street.
T. O'Hara
Lower cost? According to the CBO:
Of course, if you’re already running a two trillion dollar deficit, what’s another two hundred billion?
El Cid
A well deserved smackdown of Niall Ferguson, Mr. Re-Empire, from the great and powerful Krug-Man, after Ferguson wrote a weird column comparing Obama to Felix the cat and mentioned that the similarities were that both were (a) black and (b) ‘lucky’, with their ‘bag of tricks’:
All praise be the Krug-Man.
DarcyPennell
Sometimes? The Libertarian party in my community tries to run a full slate in every election, including the municipal elections in odd-numbered years. They never quite manage to field candidates for every single race, but they come pretty close. Is that unusual?
It’s been a few years since I spent any time with libertarians, but I used to know a fair number of them and that was exactly how they described their position.
I once asked a libertarian, “if a corporation knew that their product could kill consumers if used as directed, should they be required to disclose that information?”
His reply: “No. But they couldn’t lie about it if asked.”
This person was an officer in the local libertarian party. So apparently the free market would require us all to ask every company we buy anything from whether their product could injure or kill us in any possible way. And I guess we’d have to keep asking over and over and over, in case the corporation had new information or had made changes to the product. That sounds so much more manageable than regulation.
someguy
That’s right. If somebody fucks up at your workplace and the injured party sues, everybody who works there should lose their homes and retirement accounts.
Oh wait a minute…
El Cid
@T. O’Hara: That is only the CBO’s projected cost for the bill if you leave out the immediately following projections of cost savings and increased revenue.
This is like portraying a company’s advertising budget as simply a ‘cost’ without ever factoring in the increased sales you plan to gain by the campaign.
Click that link you just provided, go to page 2, and you’ll see this:
So, to be clear, it’s not $1 trillion + over 10 years from the CBO — the same document you just posted said on page 2 that the NET cost (not gross, we’re not idiots here) was $239 billion over 10 years, or roughly $24 billion a year if you don’t calculate any additional savings from fixing Medicare billing.
$239 billion over 10 years.
That’s what the CBO says of HR3200.
$239 billion over 10 years.
Not $1 Trillion over 10 years.
But $239 billion over 10 years.
Ailuridae
Somewhat unrelated but Rep Anthony Weiner (Jewish NY Congressman most notable for being John Stewart’s one-time roommate) gave Joe Scarborough an absolute dressing down this morning on Morning Joe. The spin from it will be really bad for Dems but the gist of it was Weiner pressing Scarborough on what value in health care private insurance provides. Scarborough was flummoxed (predictably as their is no value there) before basically admitting to being an ideologue (while not realizing it).
I guess this does tie in with the Libertarian theme. If you have ever talked about efficiency and effectiveness of the VA or Medicare with a libertarian or free market fundamentalist you know what I refer to. No matter how much empirical data you cite that single payer (Medicare here) or the VA (true socialized medicine) are more efficient and more effective than private insurance they reject the data out of kind.
JGabriel
El Cid:
Or roughly $80 per person per year.
That’s pretty cheap.
.
T. O'Hara
Just plain wrong. $239 Billion is what the bill adds to the deficit over 10 years. That’s not the cost, that’s the cost not offset by new revenue (i.e., taxes). But we weren’t talking about the taxation provisions in the bill, only the insurance. And the cost of that is $1.042 Trillion.
By the way, it’s seriously back-loaded. The insurance provision adds $202 Billion to the deficit in 2019 alone (offset by 86 Bil in new taxes and 50 Bil projected spending cuts, for a net gap of 65 Bil for one year).
NoVa Commie
@El Cid:
Thank you, I was too annoyed by the sloppy analysis to reply.
off to get coffee
T. O'Hara
Speaking of sloppy analysis, what about surgeons performing 50,000 dollar amputations? Statement from the American College of Surgeons Regarding Recent Comments from President Obama
someguy
Ailuridae, do you have any familiarity at all with the VA system? Your extolling it as a model for the rest of us makes me wonder. The only efficiency I noticed is that they are really good at denying treatment for service-related injuries and illnesses – I guess that’s a big money saver, so you’re right that it is efficient in at least one respect. I suppose we can always blame the deficiencies on Bush and the Republican Congress but my issues with the VA pre-date both of those… though it’s just possible that Bush was such a horrible president, he actually made things worse prior to taking office. I also have a couple family members who had horrible experiences with the VA. Yeah, let’s have single payer, but please, please don’t inflict the VA model on us.
El Cid
@T. O’Hara: It’s not wrong. It’s NET.
If you’re going to quote the CBO, then quote it.
Why on Earth would it be justified to quote the cost without, say, quoting the amounts that would no longer be spent by other programs covering the same tasks?
Why, because they wanted to make a political point while pretending that the contents of a document cited supported that point.
So, make up your mind — either quote the CBO or don’t.
Don’t play this bullshit game where the CBO is important and real when it lists a literal program outlay of $100 billion a year but then insult and deny that very same CBO and that very same CBO document you yourself are quoting when it factors in costs and revenue increases for a net budget impact of $24 billion a year.
John S.
Come on, El Cid, leave the nice conservative troll alone.
Anyone who blasts in here touting Rasmussen (chuckle) polls and figures from a CBO report that are either inaccurate or woefully misleading deserves a little sympathy. Right?
T. O'Hara
It’s wrong. You corrected a perfectly correct statement about insurance cost. (The subject, in case you forgot, was “what benefit do we get from private insurance being involved.”) Nitpick all you like about the NET cost of the BILL, the COST of the INSURANCE is 1.042 Trillion over ten years.
El Cid
Oh, oh, okay, so now ‘net’ costs is for, like, homos and French people and shit. Let me take that back to my company and lecture the partners on how they need to stop thinking about all this increased production they intend to get out of upgrading their equipment and the rise in corporate assets on hand and tell them BUT NO YOU JUST GOT TO LOOK AT THE PLAIN COST. I’m sure they’ll appreciate the input.
But let be be even more clear: I DO NOT GIVE THE SLIGHTEST FUCK OF A SHIT ABOUT YOUR WHINING ABOUT THE ‘COST’ OF A PROGRAM BECAUSE IT INVOLVES BIG NUMBERS.
I care about the things sane people are concerned about — the net impact of the bill versus the gains and incredibly increased human capital we will reap from it.
So you can take your “OMG A TRILLLLLLLION DOLLARS AND I’M NOT LISTENING TO NET COST FIGURES LA LA LA LA LA” to somebody who’s as hysterically against the skeery BIG GUBMIT as you.
T. O'Hara
Oh, do you prefer Gallup? More Disapprove than Approve of Obama on Healthcare
T. O'Hara
And that, my friend, is why you’re losing the health care debate.
John S.
@El Cid:
Spot on. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to argue this with some the moronic lizard brain clients I have (I’m an art director for an ad agency). They want to pretend like we rip them off for their advertising and marketing because they “never really know” if they make any money off it, so they treat it as a straight cost.
Recently, we’ve treated what we do as an investment and changed the conversation. A lot of clients protested (we even lost some) because we changed most of our revenue models (where tracking and metrics allow) to various types of profit-sharing. When our work performs, we get compensated for it – even more than what we made with traditional compensation. It’s a lot harder for these people to flap their jaws when we can prove that our work made them money.
Guess how that’s working out for us.
kay
@John S.:
I don’t know why health care reform can’t cost anything. I pay taxes. I pay for a lot of conservative government ventures, and have been for years and years.
I don’t know why I wouldn’t pay for establishing a rational, affordable and humane health care system.
I think it’s modern infrastructure, a system, and a good long-term investment.
The whole conservative argument is premised on the idea that I should object to domestic spending. But, I don’t. I would actually much rather spend here than overseas, or on massive corporate subsidies like Medicare Advantage. Despite the conservative babble, they spend like drunken sailors. The question for me is do I have anything to show for it. Judging from the debacle that is Medicare Advantage, I’ve been pouring money into private insurers and don’t have jack-all to show for it.
El Cid
@T. O’Hara: I agree. I’m not too pleased with Obama’s performance on health care right now because he’s played far, far too nice with a bunch of worthless Republicans who should have been ignored as the nation-destroying idiots they have been and still are.
The notion that a real leader like Obama would privilege the position of a retrograde fool like Chuck Grassley on health care is ludicrous.
If Obama can learn from his mistakes and stop thinking that the Republican Party of the Dixie Palin Confederate Free Market Baptist Uprisin’ is really someday going to come around and help govern in this magic fairyland ‘bipartisan’ manner, then my approval for him will go up.
El Cid
@T. O’Hara: I could be wrong, I’m not magic, but I see this as passing, and as a serious, serious reform, and I’m not going to be paying for your side’s diapers and hankies when you go away and cry and poop all over yourselves afterwards.
Your side had a good week and a half, with the media focus on the teabag nitwits screaming against Joe Hitler Obama Stalin and DEATH PANELS and whatnot, and with Democrats generally possessing typically noodle-ish spines, but overall it made you look like the bunch of clowns you are, and this was your peak. I hope you enjoyed it.
El Cid
@John S.: NO FAIR! NET IS FOR LATTE-SIPPIN’ AY-LEEETS!
John S.
John S.
I like you El Cid. You’re good people.
matoko_chan
The drive-bys have forgotten something……Kristols little slip last year.
Membah all the conservative flacks and toadies saying, oh noes, that is’nt true a’ tall?
The frenzied disavowals?
But it is true.
Any healthcare reform will kill the GOP.
That is why the conservative elites are sticking the cattle prod up the teabagger demographic’s butts.
valdivia
Looking at the papers and all the blogs I find it very interesting that while last week all people were talking about was Death Panels now we are talking about the importance of the Public Option. People who want it are up in arms and making noise about why and how important it is. And the Republicans are now moving on to showing how NOTHING will make them happy because Co Ops are also off the table.
Sounds to me like the debate just got a lot more focused on what matters and also more revealing of the other side’s true intentions.
MR Bill
I just heard NPR have a story with a Brit (didn’t catch name) calling out the “death panel” lies, call Charles Grassely a liar, and tear apart a Club For Growth ad, and it was glorious.
And I’ve come to understand that all this Death Panel talk is ultimately pure freudian projection: as these rightwing bastards would send me to death for being gay, and others for being librul, and the poor and ‘undeserving’ (read ‘nonwhite’) should be denied medical care, they expect us to treat them similarly.
TimO
“But all too often, prospective third-party Political Leaders leave the field, if not the party, after their first loss. The voters are too stupid, apathetic, or abused to appreciate one’s political genius, so they don’t deserve a second chance. Or the Entrenched Interests are too evil and/or powerful to understand that immediately surrendering their picayune personal fiefdoms to the New Perfect Goal is the only logical choice if they are not to be swept into the dustbin of history. Compromising, horse-trading, persuading other individuals (many of them self-involved greedy hacks and nutbags of dubious intellect and no obvious achievements) to vote in favor of the New Paradigm is tedious and soul-soiling.”
This is why Howard Dean isn’t President. I don’t know if this is who you were referring too but I think it fits. Too bad, because he’s the only one showing true leadership right about now.
El Cid
@John S.: Thanks. We must all stand together against the arithmetically empowered elites.
flukebucket
Rep. Anthony Weiner is on “Morning Joe” kicking the everloving shit out of Scarborough.
Damn it. It is times like these that I wish I had not stopped watching that full fledged piece of shit morning show.
ironranger
I’m loving the Billionaires for Wealthcare bunch that showed up top hats & tails in a white limo to a town hall in Phoenix Aug 8th. A lot of teabaggers befuddled by the group waving signs like “Vote No on Reform, Sick People Make Me Rich” & “Privatize Medicare Now”.
Ailuridae
@someguy:
You sound pretty misinformed about the VA. Maybe you are confusing it with TriCare/Military Health Systems (active duty).
Here’s a Phillip Longman piece on it:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html
The VA can be improved and a lot of its efficiency and effectiveness are not the result of being well run but endemic to the nature of having an entirely self-contained health care system. Since its all one system, its easier to modernize electronic records. Since nobody leaves the systems its easier to do preventive care and catch abnormalities in annual check-ups. Of course the biggest savings is they do what Wal-Mart does – they represent a huge (and very sympathetic) population so they drive down the costs of many of their external costs like pharmaceuticals.
kay
@valdivia:
valdivia, I love what you write, and everything you wrote is true, but, IMO, Obama’s got to lead. I see why he hung back, and I think it’s his negotiating style, but the time for that is over.
He risks looking weak. The fact is, he can’t let a single conservative Democrat from a state with 600,000 people in it run the table.
The White House said the Finance Plan had to be on the table by September 15th. The Senators from states with no people in them announced they won’t meet that deadline.
If Obama can’t control 3 Democrats in the Senate, we’ve got problems. Those three must think they died and went to heaven.
Forget Republicans. They have no role in this, except as spoilers. They have never negotiated in good faith, nor do they plan to. Obama’s problem is Democrats in the Senate who stepped into an opening he left. Ambitious people will do that, especially ambitious people who take a lot of money from insurance interests.
Harry Reid is useless. There’s a void here, and it has to be filled, because it WILL be filled.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
Fix’t.
Bob In Pacifica
This Alkhateeb guy, he doesn’t look white to me.
kay
@valdivia:
I want you to consider something. There are two Senate plans. The finance plan (small state senators with huge rural constituencies, no public plan, the co-op plan is a joke) and the HELP plan.
Why isn’t Obama promoting the HELP plan? How did we end up waiting for Senate finance? Why does Senate finance behave as if they are the key actors here? WTF? Max Baucus is now the health care expert?
If something doesn’t make sense to me I assume there’s something I don’t know. What don’t I know?
chopper
@T. O’Hara:
And that, my friend, is why you’re losing the health care debate.
well yes, when you have to spend half your time explaining basic concepts to complete morons you can’t keep your eye on the ball. that is true.
T. O'Hara
I suppose Democrats never use class warfare, or scare tactics against medicare or social security? Hoist by their own petard, classic.
In keeping with the local preference for Gallup, we have: Americans overall more likely to be sympathetic to protestors’ views than not:
Da Bomb
@kay: Honestly, I think you are missing the point with Obama. Like I said yesterday, this is all political theater.
Did you notice yesterday how Dr. Dean was on several shows talking about the strategy that Obama is playing. He same the same thing every single time. I mean he had Joe Scarborough intrigued by the idea. Obama is stroking egos until the Senate Finance Committee shits out a bill. They are holding up the process.
Once that happens, the real fun is going to begin. Basically, everyone has drawn their line in the sand. The House has made their line clear and the Senate has made their line clear.
Below is the link to Dr. Dean.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/17/768013/-Howard-Dean-schools-Morning-Joe-on-public-option-strategy-(UPDATED-wvideosaction-item)
Da Bomb
@El Cid: I appreciate the smackdown you gave T. O’Hara.
Lyle
Sigh, I’m saddened to see this entrenched piece of common wisdom rear its ugly and misinformed head again. As a Green voter who used to live in California, I’ve seen enough of their mailings to tell you that the California Greens were very focused on local offices. Their mailings were a major reason why I would bother to vote for school board, as I knew who the Green candidates were, what they stood for and felt safe that they’d be pushing for policies I’d support.
While there is a use in running candidates for national offices, it has to be noted that some states have laws requiring parties to run a Presidential candidate and get a certain number of votes or else go through the costly re-certification process again. It’s an effective rule to undermine third parties, if they don’t pursue the Presidency they have to waste time and labor, if they do they get criticized for having misplaced priorities.
kay
@Da Bomb:
Thanks. I don’t like all this nonsense. I looked at co ops. They’re completely a non-starter. There’s nothing there.
Do we really have to “debate” something the Senate Finance Committee threw on top of a plan that is a huge subsidy to private insurers to muddy the water and pretend they had some sort of populist, rural “idea”?
I don’t understand expending time and energy debating politically expedient posturing. That all this smoke comes from Senators who hail from states with no people in them just adds insult to injury. I live in a rural area. Why are rural state Senators, who, incidentally, live in some of the least competitive insurance markets in the country, driving debate?
Cain
@TimO:
This is why Howard Dean isn’t President. I don’t know if this is who you were referring too but I think it fits. Too bad, because he’s the only one showing true leadership right about now.
Howard Dean will always be the awesome. Even when his party gives him the boot he’s still out there showing balls and giving the leadership. I love this man, I wish he was president in 2004. They should have given him the job to talk about healthcare, he would have kicked some major ass. He doesn’t back down ever.
cain
Deaniac since 2003!
Da Bomb
@kay: I completely agree with that sentiment. But that’s politics.
The Senate Finance Committee is just holding up the process. That’s it. Their bill is not the end all be all. That’s why I find all this pearl clutching hilarious.
There’s nothing wrong with having a constructive criticism of the president. But this criticism has been taken to a whole new level of shrill. Calling the President a pussy and comparing him to Hoover is just unfair and absolutely ridiculous. The man is not stupid. He didn’t get as far as he did by being naive and stupid. Being fairweather is not helping the situation and only giving fodder to the right.
The White House has to be all wishy-washy unitl Sept 15th. Then Oct 16th comes around, it’s reconciliation time and the shit will hit the fan!
arguingwithsignposts
As Ms. McArdle says, we libs will never “grok” the libertarian mindset (I have my problems with a 37-yo saying “grok”). I have to admit I can’t get the FUIGM mindset that is modern libertarian/randism.
Molly
@Martin: “The House won’t pass a bill without the public option, the Senate won’t pass one with one.”
Yes, and it was a pleasant thing for me to see the House Democrats showing some huevos. My respect for the Senate decreases minute by minute.
someguy
Ailuridae, I guess your theoretical knowledge of how the VA works trumps the shitty personal experiences I had, and that a close family member had. FWIW, most of the “efficiency” I experienced involved denial of treatment for service-connected injuries. Yep, it sure was efficient for the government. My understanding is that a lot of returning Bush War veterans had similar experiences.
I’ll concede your point though: now that Obama is president, the VA is a wonderful, model system, and you’ll almost never hear a complaint about it.
satby
“I remember reading years ago an article in Reason where some guy was arguing against laws against corporations polluting because you could just sue the corporation that gave you cancer. I doubt that is view widely held among libertarians, but it is amazing how far they will go in their hatred of all regulations.”
Sue the corporations for what? No regs, no foul. No cause of action, no suit. No big payday for the aggrieved libtard.
Shorter libertarian philosophy: “me, me, ME! MINE”
See also: wikipedia: toddlers
Molly
@Gravenstone: “And anything Rasmussen reports is to be taken seriously why, exactly? ”
More than that…if someone is looking at a daily tracking poll to tell them how to govern this country, THAT would put them in the “strongly disapprove” bucket for me.
Seriously?
And someone before said Cheney and Bush don’t have principles. Sure they do. They governed completely by their principles. But because they utterly divorced them from fact, history, and analysis, they had the wrong ones.
Libertarians have principles too. It’s the thought coming straight from principles that are causing people to go to protests with assault rifles. I am about sick of people who live their lives through nothing but iron-clad principles.
valdivia
@kay:
I agree that Obama has to take the lead but as i understand the intricacies of legislation he cannot make the senate vote on something. I think his plan has been let all committees bring forward a bill and I will hammer it out on conference and reconciliation. It could be that if Finance will really not put forth a bill then the plan has to change. But don’t all committees need to have a bill before a vote happens? I ask because that was my understanding. All I heard him say is that he prefers something like the HELP bill but he cannot force Finance to do as he wants, which i think is actually the right thing. I don’t think as a matter of institutional history that the President has to control a senator, that is not how it works, but it is a problem of how the senate works that Baucus has all this power. He should be threatened with the gavel being taken away from him. period. Why do you think Obama was in Montana this week?
Molly
@ironranger: “I’m loving the Billionaires for Wealthcare bunch that showed up top hats & tails in a white limo to a town hall in Phoenix Aug 8th.”
Yes.
Last week, I had reached the point of giving up. Then, I got good and pissed. I’ll be damned if I let these deluded idiots win yet again. I am so done with the lowest common denominator getting to run this country. I want intelligence, I want logic, I want people who can speak from a position of reality. On both sides, people. It seems like intelligence is a rare commodity coming out of the right these days. There is no “there” there. Nothing but platitudes and hysteria. WTF?
So, for the people that like to come here, presenting an “alternative” view, you’d better get past urban legend and hyperbole and point to something concrete. Not polls, not pundits, not some list of talking points, concrete proposals and scientific studies. Or make a LOGICAL, cohesive case. Plenty of people here do it, including our proprietor. You want to know why we tell you to shut the fuck up, call you trolls, tell you to go away? It’s not because you’re giving an alternate viewpoint. Plenty of people here don’t agree with each other. It’s because what you are saying MAKES NO SENSE.
Seriously. I deal in logical analysis every day. Following chains of logic, backed by factual data, to an ultimate plan and conclusion. The right is offering NOTHING for me right now, and God, I’m trying to be open-minded.
ironranger
@Molly:
It’s pretty much futile to try to talk logic to people who couldn’t figure out for the longest time that they were being spoofed & even then, some of them still get the irony.
matoko_chan
Be chill.
Obama is playing 11-D chess and the GOP is playing old maid or something.
Actually, he is using bidding theory now, a part of games theory 101.
He is putting the public option up on the auctionblock right now, and seeing what he can get for it from the liberal side.
The guy is ill.
I think….. possibly….he let the “Death Panels” be excised to encourage Palin to run in 2012.
Her favorability is down to 39%.
And think about strategy…..after healthcare comes immigration reform. Will the GOP leadership be able to put the teabag genie back in the bottle, or will they be trying to woo hispanics while the teabaggers rage-rave about beaners and wetbacks and “Real America”?
Brachiator
@Molly:
Yep. That’s it exactly.
Very well said.
b-psycho
@someguy: …what are you talking about? Where’d you get from what I said that individual workers with no actual control over the company would be considered equivalent to it?
Ed Drone
Is that why some third parties endorse major party candidates for higher office (governor, president, Senate, etc.)? So they can be an authorized party but concentrate on local elections?
In some ways, that sounds reasonable. But so many third parties are so narrow in focus that no major party candidate will meet their exacting specifications (in particular, the purity scale), so they have to run some dimbulb who makes no sense and has no chance, whereas, by latching onto a major candidate, they can sometimes swing elections (especially at state levels or when the Electoral College is involved), and thus gain the (sometimes grudging) respect of the major parties.
Ed
fish
The Realist-Libertarians—and their counterparts on the other axis, like the Greens—believe they can find a magical all-purpose Savior Candidate, like Ralph Nader, whose enormous logical appeal and sheer personal charisma will make all us disaffected voters smack our foreheads and change our party registration.
This is demonstrably wrong.
fish
The Realist-Libertarians—and their counterparts on the other axis, like the Greens—believe they can find a magical all-purpose Savior Candidate, like Ralph Nader, whose enormous logical appeal and sheer personal charisma will make all us disaffected voters smack our foreheads and change our party registration.
This is demonstrably wrong.
fish
Crappy messed up tags:
http://www.gp.org/breaking-news/2009-04-07-results.html
kay
@valdivia:
“I agree that Obama has to take the lead but as i understand the intricacies of legislation he cannot make the senate vote on something. I think his plan has been let all committees bring forward a bill and I will hammer it out on conference and reconciliation.”
I’m a big fan of process, and the legislative role. I don’t want Obama forcing Senate Finance to do anything, as far as legislation. I recognize that I, well, WE, have the Congress we deserve.
I want there to be consequences for missing a White House deadline or appearing on television and announcing there aren’t 60 votes in the Senate. Conrad feels emboldened to make grand pronouncements about his own “essential” role in this effort. That damages Obama, and I’m not in this to promote a Senator who represents a state that is, essentially, a House district.
I think the conservative Democratic Senators are damaging this process, because no one cares about legislative procedure, or the “long game” or any of that. They want to see the President working towards some shared goal, not each member’s long-winded political analysis, that is by it’s very nature parochial, because legislators are parochial.
Conservative Democrats can draft whatever they want. What they can’t do is make themselves the center of the universe. They don’t represent enough people to do that. Obama is the President. He’s doing his President thing: he’s the centrist, all Americans, blah, blah. That isn’t a Senators role, and they’re usurping that role. Senate Finance isn’t “America”. I mean, WTF? They’re a bunch of Senators.
I want everyone in their proper place, because it’s DESIGNED to work like that. Obama’s where he should be. He needs to get the Senate back where they should be.
Jackie
@someguy: Seems to me your beef is with the system deciding you weren’t covered. Like private health insurers are doing very regularly. Recission is the worst of it, but since no one can figure out what there insurance should pay for, they make a tidy profit out of denying care and seeing how hard you fight. I have never had an insurance company make an innocent mistake in my favor but a fair amount of “oops your right, we’ll fix it” at the least they got to hold onto the money a little longer and if you are confused or sick or just too damned polite to complain they got to keep the money forever.
I have lots of critique about the va system but you are equating coverage with care. If we devise a system where once they have you they can’t deny you it will be a big step in the right direction.
Ailuridae
@someguy:
Hey look, everyone, its a classic conservative tactic to demonize socialized medicine. Somebody who knows somebody or themselves had a bad time with the VA or the NHS ergo they are not good healthcare systems.
I think arguing from unverifiiable personal anecdotes is inane. The overall effectiveness, efficiency and satisfaction for the VA is very high and destroys the private sector (and performs equally with Medicare). Its unfortunate that you and a family memeber both went untreated for service related injuries but in a large organization mistakes will be made (just like the NHS). But overall for those of us who focus on outcomes the VA is the best healthcare system in America although it could still use improvement.
Also the improvement of the VA has nothing to do with Obama taking office – the article I linked was from 2005.