I recommend Nate Silver’s post about the possible death of the public option.
A couple key points:
Why doesn’t the public option have the votes for passage? You’d think that a provision that is both fairly popular and money-saving was a good bet for passage. But the insurance industry really, really does not like the public option. We’d previously estimated that its lobbying influence has cost the public option something like nine (9) votes in the Senate.
This is an unpleasant truth. But just because it’s an unpleasant truth doesn’t mean that it’s not the truth.
and
Forget politics for a moment — what about from a policy standpoint? The fundamental accomplishments of a public option-less bill would be to (1) ensure that no American could be denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition or because they became sick; (2) subsidize health insurance coverage for millions of poor and middle-class Americans.
These are major, major accomplishments. Arguably, they are accomplished at too great a cost. But let’s look at it like this. The CBO estimates that the public option would save about $150 billion over the next ten years — that’s roughly $1,100 for every taxpayer. I’m certainly not thrilled to have to pay an additional $1,100 in taxes because some Blue Dog Democrats want to placate their friends in the insurance industry. But I think the good in this health care bill — the move toward universal-ish coverage, the cost-control provisions — is worth a heck of a lot more than $1,100.
We live in a culturally pre-Enlightenment country (hence the teabaggers) that is mostly ruled by corporations (hence the fact that a good portion of the Senate has been bought off). That’s reality. Politics is the art of the possible and a health care plan that brings insurance to 40 million Americans has to be counted as a big success for Obama.
Still, I think liberals should yell and scream as much as possible about this, because it just makes it a bigger bargaining chip. Anyway, the angrier we hippies are at Obama, the better coverage he’ll receive. Just remember in 2010 and 2012 (EDIT: in the general elections): you’re with Obama or you’re with the teabaggers.
James K. Polk, Esq.
I like being used as a foil.
Wasn’t it FDR who told the lefties that he needed them to pull him in the right direction? Nothing good comes easy…
eemom
very well said, sir.
joes527
Patrick
Forget politics for a moment—what about from a policy standpoint? The fundamental accomplishments of a public option-less bill would be to (1) ensure that no American could be denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition or because they became sick; (2) subsidize health insurance coverage for millions of poor and middle-class Americans.
I am a fan of Nate’s work at 538 and before his poblano/538 days, at Baseball Prospectus.
That being said, making the argument that these two things will be fundamental accomplishments of a health insurance reform bill is, to me, naive. If the public option is dealt, then there’s no reason to believe that any other plank of the legislation won’t get Swiss cheesed by the insurance industry and their emboldened whores in Congress.
A public option is the best guarantee against insurance company malfeasance which is why I think it scares the shit out of them. I fear that no public option will mean that any remaining provision can be poked full of loop holes to satisfy the people who have created the problem to begin with.
Halteclere
Though the phraseology is similar to “either you are with us or against us” used by the Bush administration, the tone and application is different. For the Bush usage, the phrase was a cudgel to hammer at any dissenters, no matter how thoughtful the dissension.
But (my reading of his tone), DougJ’s phrase is saying that either you stand up and support Obama or the teabaggers win.
Not the same thing.
salacious crumb
ah, looks like the progressives not bowing to Dear Leader Obama’s whims will be put in the firing range. hence we are now adopting the George Bushian ‘you are with us or against us” mantra
Makewi
So there’s an alliance between the Democrat party Senators, the tea party protesters and the insurance companies, and further the reason for this alliance has solely to do with greed and a lack of intelligence on those whose opinions don’t match yours. It’s shocking that the people aren’t rallying to these arguments.
Stooleo
“A public option is the best guarantee against insurance company malfeasance which is why I think it scares the shit out of them.”
Bingo! The public option will force the insurance companies to compete in an honest environment. No more denying claims, no more preexisting conditions, no more 12 million a year salary for the CEO.
Shygetz
DougJ, I wish you would clarify that in the general election you are either with Obama or you are with the teabaggers. Any Dems who balk on the public option should be vigorously primaried.
jcricket
@Patrick:
This
See also: Panels, Death.
And now apparently, “home nurse visits to low-income parents.”
Look, the Republicans are against reform. They are against expanding coverage. They are against regulations. The insurance company and big Pharma are generally against all this as well. The crazification factor is 100% against it as well.
Oh sure, they say they favor a different “kind of reform”, but we all know the McCain-type plans would make the system about 1000x worse for the average individual while temporarily shoring up corporate profits until the system cracked in a few years.
But the truth is quite clear: Compromise should be between liberal and conservative Democrats; We can make nods to working with the Republicans, but they are the enemies, not the allies. Work the public along the way, but it’s more important to get a good bill passed, supported by as many Democrats as possible. Then hammer the FUCK out of the Republicans b/c they opposed the bill (which of course will not have any heeby-jeeby scary bullshit in it).
gizmo
You can bet the farm that the health insurance thugs are already scheming about how they will kill off any “co-op” health plans. If the legislation that Obama signs establishes co-ops, I would rate their chances of financial survival at 10% or less, and they will be dead within two years of their birth.
wrb
Seems to me that it could work out, step by step
Once the bill is signed:
“Now, we had to make compromises with our republican friends and with some on our side of the isle to get this passed.
The major compromise they required was the elimination of provisions that would have made health care more affordable for you, but would have cost the insurance and heath care industries money.
I still believe these things important and ask that you support me in fighting to improve our new Universal Health Care system, by making it more affordable, more competitive and more subject to market discipline and so overcome those who would rather protect special interests’ than your money.
To do this we are going to have to replace some of those currently in Washington”
Winning the elimination of cost controls could come back to bite folks.
Douthat is already fretting about it.
Even if it takes awhile, once we have universal care, people will eventually rebel against the escalating costs, and will be unlikely to give up care.
So we’ll get the cost control part of reform, provided we get universal care in step one. I think.
wrb
Seems to me that it could work out, step by step
Once the bill is signed:
“Now, we had to make compromises with our republican friends and with some on our side of the isle to get this passed.
The major compromise they required was the elimination of provisions that would have made health care more affordable for you, but would have cost the insurance and heath care industries money.
I still believe these things important and ask that you support me in fighting to improve our new Universal Health Care system, by making it more affordable, more competitive and more subject to market discipline and so overcome those who would rather protect special interests’ than your money.
To do this we are going to have to replace some of those currently in Washington”
Winning the elimination of cost controls could come back to bite folks.
Douthat is already fretting about it.
Even if it takes awhile, once we have universal care, people will eventually rebel against the escalating costs, and will be unlikely to give up care.
So we’ll get the cost control part of reform, provided we get universal care in step one. I think.
Halteclere
I should add a clarification description (darn lack of a preview or post edit function!):
Teabaggers – Political mobs organized to shut down debate and intimidate political oponents.
JL
I’m certainly not thrilled to have to pay an additional $1,100 in taxes because some Blue Dog Democrats want to placate their friends in the insurance industry. But I think the good in this health care bill—the move toward universal-ish coverage, the cost-control provisions—is worth a heck of a lot more than $1,100.
I get the point, but I will never be happy that the economically AND socially sound option was discarded to appease a commercial industry in exchange for campaign contributions. Because that’s what happened.
I will still fight for single-payer in my state
http://www.californiaonecare.org
Blue Neponset
I seem to remember a few third party candidates (Perot & Nader come to mind) mucking up the waters in a few of our recent Presidential elections. If Howard Dean runs for Prez in 2012 I think I might vote for him.
linda
1) ensure that no American could be denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition or because they became sick; (2) subsidize health insurance coverage for millions of poor and middle-class Americans.
and both of those ‘wins’ will be neutralized in further negotiations.
and you’re very naive if you think that obama will gain favorable coverage because he’s pissed off the dfhs; all the media coverage from this point on will be how obama’s on the defensive; despite public support, he can’t get legislation thru congress; the republicans are rebounding as evidenced by the success at killing this legislation.
‘budget deficits’ will be the rallying cry for years to come.
flukebucket
Just remember in 2010 and 2012: you’re with Obama or you’re with the teabaggers.
The teabaggers will win in 2010.
gratefulcub
The public option is the easiest plank to rally the opposition with. It is, in fact, a semi-socialized version of healthcare. (I would argue that it’s only socialized medicine when the government starts employing doctors and nurses and running hospitals, but I digress)
It can be left out and a good starter bill pass. Obama isn’t selling out, or laying down. To steal from Yglesias, at some point, after several presidents try and fail at health care reform, you have to realize that all of the fault is not with the president. It is hard to get health reform, and even harder to completely restructure health care. It is an incremental process, and the most important step is the first one. The ball has to start rolling now.
Maybe he didn’t do the politics right, and in doing so lost some aspects we would like to see in this bill. Maybe he is making some compromises that aren’t 100% necessary.
Call me naive, but I believe that his goal is to get the best bill he can, and to get the ball rolling. This isn’t the last health care bill that will be passed. No one believes that any single bill coming out this year will be the final word. We will still fight for more universal coverage and less interference by commercial insurers, and others will still argue for less government control.
If you can’t believe in incremental change, you will never get the change you can believe in.
azlib
Yes, l agree liberals should jump up and down and scream about this. It appears House Democrats already are. The game is not over, yet.
arguingwithsignposts
I’m less than optimistic that whatever passes will do any real reform, other than rescission and pre-existing conditions, which should have been stopped long ago.
mrmike
Zifnab
Is it? $150 billion in ransom to the insurance giants that spent the barest fraction of that to defeat better health care reform?
And $150 billion is the tip of the iceburg, because without public option there’s very little to prevent insurance premium inflation from going through the roof as “punishment” for increased regulation. Remember $4/gallon gas when the oil industry bought off Congress in early 2000? That’s where this is going.
We’ll see another Medicare Plan D, where we promise to cover everyone while paying exorbitant rates to special business interests who then find creative and exciting ways to screw their 47 million new clients out of the health care coverage they never really had.
Without public option, there is absolutely nothing to keep the insurance giants honest. They’ll take every regulation to court while they drive up premiums and spend another couple million dollars to fatten Congressional coffers. And in the end, we’ll see a Republican revival (because, fuck it, the Dems can’t do anything right) and a roll back of all the good minus all the bad.
It’ll be a true clusterfuck if we get insurance mandates without public option. This is about zero accountability.
John Hamilton Farr
No, no, no. That is just the silliest thing I’ve ever heard, but I expect it will be “the call” from here on out. The tactic is what I call “going all Buddhist commando on my ass” and it stinks. The temporarily invisible THIRD CHOICE (not a political one) is what that silly dualistic nonsense precludes.
Jesus, is there a Jungian analyst in the house? Does no one have an vision or guts??
Awesom0
Obama passes a bill with a single payer option, or he’s dead in my book. Put up or shut up Barack.
Irony Abounds
If the folks in Washington weren’t corrupt to their very core, there would be an easy solution to this even without a public option. Allow for co-ops that follow the Mayo Clinic formula, and provide incentives for doctors and patients to participate. You would accomplish cost savings, better care and greatly expanded coverage all at the same time. Of course, the insurance industry and its minions (aka, members of Congress) won’t allow it, in particular the Republican Party, which at this juncture in time has become truly a grotesque group of malefactors.
gratefulcub
Is the public option that great anyway? Does it really keep insurance costs down? How?
It is only available to those without insurance through an employer. So, it is not actually a competitive market. Insurers aren’t going to change their practices to get into the market of the uninsured poor.
For the record, I believe in a Medicare for all type of system. I just don’t believe the current public plan moves us in that direction. And, I don’t believe it is the line in the sand that needs to be drawn.
A bill without a public plan should not be seen as a loss.
DougJ
Though the phraseology is similar to “either you are with us or against us” used by the Bush administration, the tone and application is different. For the Bush usage, the phrase was a cudgel to hammer at any dissenters, no matter how thoughtful the dissension.
But (my reading of his tone), DougJ’s phrase is saying that either you stand up and support Obama or the teabaggers win.
Yes, that is what I was trying to say.
Michael
That’s spooky as shit, when I think about it.
BC
I can’t see Howard Dean running third party. He, after all, is from Democratic wing of the Democratic party. He’s not a crusader like Nader or Perot. I think a third party candidacy could come from the right, they are not very happy with their elected officials. Maybe Sarah Palin will be their standard bearer. But I think a health care package will pass that will have (1) no insurance company can take your money and deny you coverage; (2) no insurance company can refuse you because of pre-existing condition; (3) some type of insurance exchange, maybe including a co-op of some kind. But the liberals in House could make that co-op a bit more robust than what Conrad has in mind. I don’t think they’ll get many Republican votes no matter what it has, so the media will frame it as a defeat for Obama. But the 2010 elections will have the health care reform as part of accomplishment and might just keep the Dems’ losses down. I think we might snag the NH senatorial seat that Gregg is resiging from and maybe keep all our senate incumbents. The Republicans are whistling past the graveyard if they think they can muster the 50 or so seats from Dems in House to get a majority. Boehner might just be this generation’s Dirksen, forever the House Minority Leader aching to be speaker.
Keith G
@Patrick:
But, of course. And that will be their eventual undoing. Their under-regulated greed will continue to kill people and a renewed backlash, strengthened by widowed ex-teabaggers, will grow.
It will be ugly and innocents will suffer, but it will happen.
DougJ
Is the public option that great anyway? Does it really keep insurance costs down? How?
Yes and yes. Because there is less bureaucratic cost is one reason, the lack of profit motive is another.
YellowJournalism
@jcricket: That argument is almost as offensive as the death panel argument.
The policy here in Alberta is that everyone receives a home health nurse visit a few days after giving birth. (There are also home health nurse visitations for other reasons such as after major surgeries.) The option for more visits if necessary is there for those struggling with issues like depression, feeding issues, etc. There is also a hotline that you can call any time to get advice or schedule appointments, not to mention excellent clinic visits for baby check-ups and vaccinations. I just don’t get why a program similar to this would be frowned upon in the US, especially by conservatives who are supposedly “pro-family”.
neill
this is the most positive spin on the most suck-ass situation — by which a silk purse morphs into a pig’s ass — i have read in a long time.
quite frankly, i don’t believe any of those bennies are gonna obtain from a ‘reform’ bill coming out of these shit-shoveling politicians — Barack included…
dont trust ’em at all.
no public option = we’re fucked…again.
Brachiator
@salacious crumb:
Progressives have been even more useless than the Democratic Congress in getting healthcare legislation done. All they do is sit in a lotus position chanting “Single Payer,” and expecting everyone else to become instantly enlightened and fall into line.
They have been absolutely a total freakin waste of time in actually designing a workable plan and in being able to demonstrate how it might save money, provide good health care to more people and be an antidote to the current system.
And the Obama Administration has also dropped the ball by failing to provide a clearer outline of what was desired and by not directing the efforts of an incompetent, corrupt or cowardly Democratic Congress.
At best, Obama’s tack could be to get something now and try to get more later. He should also identify those in his party who are big recipients of insurance company cash and punish them as harshly as possible.
At worst, as is happening with financial regulation, the Democrats are being outfoxed by the GOP because they are high on ideals and low on basic competence.
I mentioned before in another thread that Obama needs to consider getting rid of some of the Clinton-deadwood in his adminstration, people who were eager to get back into government service, but can’t get jack done now that they are in place.
I have nothing but contempt for the Democratic Congress. And that’s on a good day. These boneheads loved capitulating to Dubya, while crying that they would do so much better if they had a majority and a Democratic Party president. Now that they have both these things, they can’t even bother to try coming up with a good lie to explain their lack of effectiveness.
Awesom0
I stand by my earlier comment: Obama/the Dems epitomize why I hate Democrats so fucking much: THEY’RE WEAK PUSSIES.
Republicans are pure concentrated evil, but they’re not in power; deferring to them like they are is a sing of weakness.
Turn the corner Obama or you will be dead for me forever.
joes527
I dunno. I’m having a hard time seeing this clusterfuck as the Republican’s fault at this point. Oh sure, they are no help at all. Pure wasted airspace. But the solid gold stupid seems to be coming from the democrat party.
Maybe they should have started with something a little less ambitious and worked their way up rather than proposing the moon and then very publicly pissing themselves.
My problem with the way single payer, or death panels, or public option have gone down is not that we can’t live without any of these. It is that the way that the democrats have played it has made abundantly clear that they will not stand for anything.
The most likely outcome at this point seems to be a bill with the word reform in the title which nets out to a series of give-aways to the insurance industry.
And that would be worse than nothing.
BFR
The teabaggers will win in 2010.
Probably. Most likely scenario I see is the GOP pickup of a few seats in 2010. Limbaugh et al will assert that their leadership lead to victory and will lurch the GOP further to the right, leading to another massacre in 2012.
jcricket
@Awesom0:
Lookie here… I would be as mad as hell if Democrats lose this battle or cave on stuff like the public option. But the fuck-nuts crazy religious right didn’t get to where they are (influence/power wise) by giving up and hoping better politicians would come along whenever they didn’t get their way.
Sure, they yelled and screamed louder each time they “lost”, which is what I think we (DFH/liberals/progressives) should do. Every time there’s a compromise we don’t like, don’t walk away and back another “horse” – but instead put even more pressure on the people already elected. Support primary opponents, when the time is right, but that’ll never be enough.
This whole “I’m taking my ball and going home” thing is what got Nader so many votes back in Bush/Gore 2000, and it’s not a helpful attitude now either.
gratefulcub
Yes and yes. Because there is less bureaucratic cost is one reason, the lack of profit motive is another.
I realize that a public option would be more efficient and cheaper than Blue Cross. My point was, will a public option bring down the rate BC charges employers?
Regardless of the cheaper cost of the public option, I am not going to opt out of my employer based plan because it is free to me, and my employer doesn’t have the option of switching to the public option.
I’m not saying the public option is a bad idea, I just don’t think it is the most important piece of this debate. We can get reform that is meaningful without the public option.
The missing piece is the mandate that everyone has insurance. You can’t mandate that BC takes all comers and covers pre-existing conditions, without mandating that everyone is covered.
parksideq
@gratefulcub: Agreed. A co-worker just pointed out that while the Civil War ended in 1863, black people weren’t guaranteed much (if any) freedom until the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act were passed in 1963 and 1964, respectively. It’s still shocks me to think that my mom is older than her right to vote in this country, but the point is that change happens S.L.O.W.L.Y. in the US of A.
Public option or not, this is just the beginning of healthcare reform, not the end. It might not happen while I’m alive, but I feel like we will eventually see the folly of not having a single-payer system, even if it doesn’t happen till 2109.
Of course, this assumes that we’re not all killed off by the insurance Industry’s death panels by then.
Morbo
Kodos: “It’s true, we are aliens. But what are you going to do about it? It’s a two-party system; you have to vote for one of us.”
Some guy: “Well, I believe I’ll vote for a third party candidate.”
Kang: “Go ahead, throw your vote away!”
gratefulcub
Turn the corner Obama or you will be dead for me forever
He campaigned on health care reform, he has pushed health care reform since he has been in office.
I will take him on my side, even if he can’t get everything we want within the first year of his term. Even if he can’t get enough senators to bite the hands that feed them and support him.
Demo Woman
@YellowJournalism: The memo is already out that Obama is trying to take away your children. Hatch was for that but now he’ll say it’s not the same. The democratic plan had three more words in it or something.
ninerdave
Or you realize the who system is so awash with special interest money that nothing of any consequence will every be passed and America will continue it’s slow slide into second nation status and you suck it up and take it.
Bonus question: What ever happened to skepticism? It occurred to me with all the non-sense floating around “Death Panels” that skepticism is essentially dead in this country. I mean really when you hear non-sense like that, shouldn’t your first reaction be: that can’t be right.
DougJ
Most likely scenario I see is the GOP pickup of a few seats in 2010. Limbaugh et al will assert that their leadership lead to victory and will lurch the GOP further to the right, leading to another massacre in 2012.
And 2014 and 2016. Going all in with the teabaggers is long-term political suicide.
Zifnab
@Brachiator:
Cheers to that. I’m tired of people stomping their feet and screaming “Single Payer or Bust!” as though a) this massive shift in insurance practices would happen overnight and solve all cost-related problems and b) if you scream at a high enough pitch, you’re going to move the same intractable (small c) conservatives that balk at everything from privatized social security to DADT repeal.
Cain
@Awesom0:
Obama passes a bill with a single payer option, or he’s dead in my book. Put up or shut up Barack.
Last I looked the executive branch doesn’t make any laws. Maybe you’re barking up the wrong tree? I still dont’ understand why the fuck people keep blaming Obama for this when you can see the malfeasance going on in the U.S. Senate. What the fuck do you expect Obama to do, exactly? The senate is answerable to the U.S. public.
The burden is on us they need to fear us more than they fear the lobbyist otherwise it’s not going to work. That’s why only during times of great crises does stuff like social security and medicare passes because that’s the only time they’re going to go with public sentiment.
Passing healthcare is bloody hard and we’ve been repeatedly trying it. It looks like in yoru book quite a lot of presidents are going to be dead. If you haven’t made a call to your senator then you have no credibility. You’re just a lazy taxpayer who wants someone else to do the heavy lifting and you’re dead in my book.
cain
El Cid
I’m a strong public option supporter, but (a) I hope people understand that the *actual* ‘public option’ being discussed is much more limited and circumscribed than may people apparently believe (it’s not open to everyone); (b) I’ll be damned if I want to give up on true health insurance regulation reform just because all of my health care goals weren’t included; (c) we liberals have to make more noise and demonstrate more organization than the conservative opposition; and (d) if Democrats fail to enact health care reform this fall, even less than you or I might like, then we may have shot a real Democrat and liberal ascendance.
My current feeling is that health care / insurance reform will pass, and that it’s very possible that a (limited as it always was) public option may be included, and it will represent a huuuuuuge defeat for not only the GOP, but for 30 years of anti-citizen Reaganism and faux libertarian kleptocratic ideology and for an incipient populo-fascist movement as well.
Awesom0
@jcricket
It’s all about LEADERSHIP. For better or worse (all the latter IMHO), Republicans can exercise it, Democrats cannot.
If you cannot show leadership, then don’t try to be President.
Had Obama gone balls-to-the-wall in favor of health care overhaul and failed, then I’d still be behind him. So far, he has not.
PS – Had Democrats shown leadership, then perhaps so many may not have voted for Nader.
K. Grant
I love this attitude about if Obama doesn’t do exactly as I want, he is dead to me. Perfect. Really productive. Very adult.
Many saying such things likely voted for Nader in 2000. How well did that turn out? No, really, I am sure there will be a different result next time. Absolutely. What could possibly go wrong?
Mark S.
@DougJ:
Well, a real weak public option wouldn’t really do that. It needs to let anyone who wants to join do so. The teabaggers who love their private insurance could keep it.
BFR
And 2014 and 2016. Going all in with the teabaggers is long-term political suicide.
Right – and the dynamics in place make this an extremely likely outcome. There’s almost no way that 2010 doesn’t get depicted as a win for Republicans (even if they lose seats, it won’t be by the same margin). The media’s going to run endless stories about how the right has it’s mojo back (all thanks to Limbaugh, Beck, et al).
We’d all be better off in the long run if the GOP started to find a way to appeal to urban/inner suburban populations but I don’t think it’s going to happen anytime soon.
Citizen_X
Just remember in 2010 and 2012: you’re with Obama or you’re with the teabaggers.
Ah, but that same Nate Silver wrote yesterday about how Democrats “appear to face a significant enthusiasm gap” nowadays. Why? Probably because they *&%^&*# CAPITULATE ON EVERY GODDAM QUESTION THAT COMES DOWN THE PIKE!
So hold their feet to the fire–it’s for their own good!
Cain
@ninerdave:
Or you realize the who system is so awash with special interest money that nothing of any consequence will every be passed and America will continue it’s slow slide into second nation status and you suck it up and take it.
And then these guys will go shopping for another country to fuck up. Once we hit second tier we are no good to them. I wonder if they even think about their oath as a U.S. citizen. Maybe they should recite it just in case they forgot. I still remember my oath when I became a U.S. citizen.
cain
Zifnab
@DougJ: Politicians do enjoy getting elected. I imagine the Republicans in the more moderate districts will pull back and mellow out if they think they can survive their primaries.
Eventually, the teabagger movement will eat itself. Clear Channel is buckling under the weight of it’s own debt, Glenn Beck is hemorrhaging ad revenue, Sean Hannity and the FOX News Crew have maxed out the geriatric demographic. And, let’s face it, without major media wackos to breath hate into the movement, people just won’t know what bullshit nonsense to be angry about.
BFR
PS – Had Democrats shown leadership, then perhaps so many may not have voted for Nader.
“Democrats” does not equal “Progressives.”
SadOldVet
We are so fucked…
For real change – Feingold/Sanders in 2012!
mcc
The public option isn’t dead. This is a media-manufactured storm of nothing and we wouldn’t be even talking about it if blogs didn’t tend to overreact to every little tiny thing.
The heath care bill will not (and should not) pass without a public option. If the White House’s opinion has indeed shifted the barely perceptible difference between “we demand a public option in this bill” to “we want a public option in this bill but are willing to negotiate with co-op advocates”, this does not change the fact that the health care bill will not (and should not) pass without a public option. The co-op plan is incoherent and the progressive caucus– who, unlike the Republicans, are actually needed to pass the bill– won’t vote for it anyway.
Mark S.
@K. Grant:
Exactly. If the Republicans were just a little worse than the Democrats, I could understand this thinking. But they are a ton worse. It would be like a choice between a filet mignon, a Big Mac, or dog shit. It’s worth it to make sure you at least get the Big Mac.
Awesom0
@BFR
Good point! Allow me to rephrase: Had Democrats shown leadership, then perhaps more Progressives may not have voted for Nader.
Olly McPherson
Just my two cents, but I’m leaning toward the “Obama is floundering camp.” After lots of big talk in the campaign, we’ve seen:
a no-strings bailout for finance companies
no action on torture/illegal wiretapping/detention/etc.
escalation of military action in Afghanistan
no tangible change in Iraq
and a total failure to claim the message on healthcare reform, along with continued capitulation to an obstructive (and discredited) Republican Congress
I do write my reps and Senators, along with the White House. I’m not willing to make being a policy watchdog my full-time job, especially when the Democrats seem intent on pissing away whatever mandate they had. So maybe I am a whiner and part of the problem, etc., but I voted for the guy, he’s not doing anything that I want, and writing him off if he continues on that path is well within my rights.
Sometimes political investment is equivalent to just doing the same over and over and expecting a different result.
Cain
@Awesom0:
It’s all about LEADERSHIP. For better or worse (all the latter IMHO), Republicans can exercise it, Democrats cannot.
Leadership, my ass. Go and call your damn congressman and show some local leadership of your own.
cain
Calouste
@DougJ:
According to the BBC, the US spends 45% more of it’s GDP on healthcare than France, 90% more than the UK and 370% more than Singapore. And for that the US gets higher infant mortality rate and a lower life expectancy than those three.
Those numbers are not going to get better unless there is serious reform. And unless those numbers are going to get better, the US is going to face serious problems competing on the world markets.
srv
@Halteclere:
Y’all already lost the big one. Thanks for playing.
Real change will not happen until the mainstream surrender-monkey Dems are as afraid of their progressive minority as Republicans are of their wingnut brigade.
Obama goes to the VFW to trash defense pork and double-down on Afghanistan. Thankfully, real leaders like al-Maliki are doing something – he just asked Parliament to allow a referendum to kick us out a year early.
Notorious P.A.T.
“Wasn’t it FDR who told the lefties that he needed them to pull him in the right direction?”
Yeah, on policies that had a hell of a lot less public approval than a public option.
Awesom0
Leadership, my ass. Go and call your damn congressman and show some local leadership of your own.
Been there and, in fact, continue to do that! I started volunteering for Obama back on Spring 2007. I maxed out my private donations. I spent countless weekends canvassing in Virginia to bring him this state. I’ve done my part, now I expect our LEADERS or exercise LEADERSHIP.
flukebucket
We’d all be better off in the long run if the GOP started to find a way to appeal to urban/inner suburban populations but I don’t think it’s going to happen anytime soon.
I don’t think so. I personally am hoping for their political suicide. I want to see them go all in with the teabaggers.
Awesom0
PS – Sorry for sounding like a Teabagger with the all caps…
Emma
If the Senate has been bought by the insurance companies –and it does seem that it has — then there’s damnall Obama can do. What I would like to see is an orchestrated campaign by progressives to go after Blue Dogs in every way possible.
And yes, I’ll grit my teeth and vote for a Democrat the next time too — and if you want to know why, check the Republican platform.
BFR
Had Democrats shown leadership, then perhaps more Progressives may not have voted for Nader.
Yep. And more conservative democrats would have voted for Bush. “Showing leadership” is just as silly as “emboldening terrorists.” If you insist that Dorgan, Landrieu, etc, “stand up for what they believe in” do you really expect to get progressive policy enacted?
There’s 3 parties right now in the US – Progressives, Conservatives and Lunatics. Progressives are doing what they can to move forward, but they need some Conservative votes to get anything passed over the objections of the Lunatics (especially in the Senate). If that means tossing some stuff overboard, then so be it.
wrb
Well, for those of us who are uninsurable, it is the universal coverage that is most important, by far.
Getting a perfectly rational efficient system would be nifty-keen and has considerable dweeby appeal, but it is unlikely considering the number of players who are sane but greedy or who are just plain nuts.
This “if we don’t get single payer we might as well torpedo it” tantrum stuff is kinda disturbing. Saving a bunch of lives isn’t minor.
Cost containment can be step two.
And running against those who defeated cost containment has potential.
tc125231
For those who really want to understand how the Senate works, I recommend the Warren Beatty film, “Bullworth”.
wrb
Well, for those of us who are uninsurable, it is the universal coverage that is most important, by far.
Getting a perfectly rational efficient system would be nifty-keen and has considerable dweeby appeal, but it is unlikely considering the number of players who are sane but greedy or who are just plain nuts.
This “if we don’t get single payer we might as well torpedo it” tantrum stuff is kinda disturbing. Saving a bunch of lives isn’t minor.
Cost containment can be step two.
And running against those who defeated cost containment has potential.
Notorious P.A.T.
“Any Dems who balk on the public option should be vigorously primaried.”
Yes yes YES. We HAVE to get rid of these bad Democrats. That’s almost as big a priority as beating the Republicans.
“all the media coverage from this point on will be how obama’s on the defensive; despite public support, he can’t get legislation thru congress”
And well it should be, because that is the truth.
flavortext
I don’t know about you guys, but if the public option doesn’t pass, I’m going to start voting Republican until the USA is a decaying Randian dystopia. Then the masses will beg for single-payer! Palin 2012!
/snark
Robertdsc-iphone
You do understand that he spent 2 years campaigning for a public option as part of his platform and now is ready to give it away, right? You do understand why this would give his supporters problems, no? Is this spinelessness the change we can believe in?
During the election, he let the GOP hit, hit, & hit, then counterpunched with the acceptance speech. Nowadays, that same counterpunch effect is missing, replaced by trial balloons filled with failure.
There are the votes in the Senate for a strong public option. It just has to be given a chance for an up or down vote. That the White House is not even trying to put any pressure on the Senate for a up or down vote speaks volumes. That the white house can’t coordinate with Senate leadership to get cloture is a goddamed embarrassment given both Obama & Biden served in the same body that’s the source of all the trouble.
Or to put it another way, the White House went balls to the wall for the war supplemental. Why aren’t they doing the same here?
It’s a disgrace. And people here at home will die because of it.
gratefulcub
srv
Real change will not happen until the mainstream surrender-monkey Dems are as afraid of their progressive minority as Republicans are of their wingnut brigade.
That’s not going to happen. The progressive minority does not have a unifying theme.
The right does:
-Anti-gay marriage
-pro gun
-fear of government
-love of god
-fear and dislike of the ‘other’
-pro life
And, they have a media structure to keep the right’s masses in line by giving them the talking points.
that’s just not how the left is structured. Hell, there is no structure. It is more of a collection of special interests.
That’s not the left at all.
Mark S.
@Calouste:
GDP numbers [swoon]
Where was I? Oh yes, but as I said on the previous thread, I’m not certain that some bastardized Swiss plan will actually make those numbers go down. I’m afraid the regulations won’t be tough enough. I might be wrong, but I think the Swiss have tough, national standards as to what insurers can charge. According to Wikipedia:
I don’t think we would have anything like that.
Cassidy in Iraq
Thankfully, real leaders like al-Maliki
He….hehehee….heheheheheheheh…..snort…..giggle….
Wow, that was awesome! Did you really say that with a straight face? Before you say something like that, why don’t you come over to my neck of the woods and ask some Iraqis what they think.
Notorious P.A.T.
“I don’t think we would have anything like that.”
Give me one good reason why our precious Democrats won’t cave in on such regulations, like they cave in on everything else?
That’s the problem with being spineless. It’s like being a liar; if you go around telling lies, people won’t believe anything you say.
Olly McPherson
To quote Kos:
I wonder if the White House truly understands the depth of anger they’ll face from the progressive side if they fail to pass health care reform with a strong public option. We haven’t busted our asses the last four years to pass bank bailouts and give insurance companies everything they ever wanted. If we wanted that, we’d be Republicans.
Chris Andersen
I’ve been seriously frustrated by the tendency of progressives to run around with their hair on fire every time they see a hint that something won’t go the way they want. But Doug’s point is a valid one: as annoying as this can be, it is an important component of reform. Because, if they didn’t yell about it then the status quo would feel even more comfortable being the status quo.
So, if Obama and the Dems drop the public option, it won’t be a disaster. But they shouldn’t feel good about it.
bob h
In any event, I do not believe the private insurers will abide by the strict regulations the likely overhaul will impose on them. Great energy will go into finding new ways to cherry-pick, etc.
Their bad faith, treachery, and unwillingness to engage in meaningful competition will be evident in due course. They will not perform.
The public option will then be back in a big way.
tc125231
@Notorious P.A.T.: Pretty on target. This is a pretty good blog, but there’s altogether too much whining.
When my sons were small, they would be shocked when I couldn’t fix a broken toy. “You can do it, Daddy,” said one. “Use tape.”
Obama is not our daddy. He has some serious flaws –but the big problem is that Americans are lazy and stupid and uninformed, and we sit around feeling superior.
Quit feeling superior and start prozletyzing. Be obnoxious. We are fast becoming the nation of the dumb. Idiocracy is alive and well.
If it can be changed, it won’t be Obama’s job. It’ll be ours.
Indylib
OT Apologies if someone has already posted about this, but there were some interesting goings-on outside the VFW Convention where Obama spoke this morning.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2009/08/17/20090817obama-scene.html
My favorite part is at the end when a 12-yr old anti-reform protester was quoted saying, “Under Obama, everyone will get the same health care, that’s socialism,” she said. “It has failed in other countries, you know, like Europe.”
Obviously a Sarah Palin fan.
Chris Andersen
@Patrick: If the public option is dealt, then there’s no reason to believe that any other plank of the legislation won’t get Swiss cheesed by the insurance industry and their emboldened whores in Congress.
Which is why it is vital that Obama and the Dems be as coy as possible about dropping the public option. If doing is necessary to complete the final conference bill, then it will be to late to demagogue the other components of the bill. The Public Option is a foil that is attracting the heat now. If it survives, great. If it does not, then at least it will have been a valiant firewall that preserved the other good aspects of the bill.
The Progressive Caucus in the House is threatening to derail the bill if it doesn’t have a public option. So they should let the House pass a bill with the public option, even if the Senate does not. The Public Option should be kept alive as long as is possible.
Brachiator
@Cain:
And what, exactly, does “single payer” mean?
For example, here is what we have from the Wikipedia:
Saying you want “single payer” is almost as pointless as saying that you want “organic food.” Sounds progressive. Don’t mean squat without more detail.
We have varying models of universal healthcare systems from Canada to the UK to France to Taiwan to New Zealand, all with different funding mechanisms and different methods of delivering health care.
In August 1994, Democratic Senate Majority Leader George J. Mitchell first offered compromise legislation and later announced that the Clinton health care proposals were dead.
Since that time, despite GOP gloating over their victory, Republicans have not delivered cheaper, more affordable or better health care. Even though they promised that this would happen if you left the industry alone.
On the other hand, Democrats apparently learned nothing from this defeat either, and certainly nothing about the dangers of compromise with an opposition dedicated to the defeat of your proposals.
matoko_chan
I’ll say this here too…
Any healthcare reform that pass spells D.O.O.M. for the GOP.
And they know it.
And the reason the Teabag Demographic is going apeshit is that they have been brutally culturally and politically disenfranchised and they know it.
The left owns hollywood, the MSM, acadame, science and technology, all music except C&W, all the cultural organs, and now the presidency and both houses of congress.
All they can do is scream blue murder when their conservative overlords demagogue and fearmonger them.
El Cid
Well, to be fair, FDR gave up on discussing a health care system and completely gave up on labor and wage protections for agricultural workers due to the opposition of Southern, segregationist Democrats who preferred the Jim Crow and union beating labor system.
I think the theme that ‘we’ve already lost’ or ‘I don’t care about any of the things we actually might achieve’ is nuts.
I think that, yes, now is a time like hell to fight for the inclusion of a public option, but do bear in mind that the public options actually under discussion are not like an optional ‘Medicare for all’ system.
Eli Rabett
Fine. Eli is signed up to give $100 to whatever Republican opposes Conrad and Baccus
ominira
@Awesom0:
If you recognize this, get on the phone and “bully” the Dems (your senators and congresspeople) to support what you want. Since they’re weak, they’ll cave in to your demands. Right?
Buggy Ding Dong
Nate is dead wrong. This can’t be a “step on the road toward” issue. It’s been 40 years since we took any meaningful step along that road and we now have the largest majority and, therefore, best opportunity to finish the journey down that road.
A piecemeal plan will kill the chances for real reform for another 40 years…and will kill the Democrats at the polls next year.
We lost in 1994 becuase Democratic voters were demoralized at their leaders complete inability to get things done, and that was when Clinton did not have near the number of progressives in Congress, much less 60 Democrats in the Senate.
If we mess this up, while NOT getting out of Iraq, while NOT closing down Gitmo and while NOT repealing the Bush tax cuts, how on Earth does Obama and the Ds think that they are going to see the enthusiasm and support they’ve received the last two elections?
Democrats are going to stay home in large enough numbers that it will sway a number of races. That 60 seat Senate will drop to 54 or 53 like that.
Think our chances of reform and actually accomplishing the other big items improves in 2010 and beyond if we fuck this up now?
joes527
Is that really what is being said? Or are folks noticing that the dems are falling over themselves to jettison parts of the package while the republicans are sitting back and not moving an inch.
The logical conclusion is that we WILL pass health care reform. (that will ultimately be composed of tax cuts for insurers)
Sure, if there was some hint that the dems had a plan other than “We’ll take out all the parts that make baby Trig cry, and then maybe the Republican will like us” … maybe then it wouldn’t look so bleak.
There is no single line in the sand item for me. (no, not even the public option) But the idea that ANYTHING called health care reform would be better than nothing is pretty frightening.
Awesom0
@ Mark S.
Where was I? Oh yes, but as I said on the previous thread, I’m not certain that some bastardized Swiss plan will actually make those numbers go down. I’m afraid the regulations won’t be tough enough. I might be wrong, but I think the Swiss have tough, national standards as to what insurers can charge.
The much lionized Swiss-plan isn’t as good as you reckon.
I live/work in Geneva, Switzerland and am privied (sp?) to their health care plan and I can tell you this: My wife and I are both in our early 30s (we are healthy, non smokers, not over-weight, no pre-existing conditions, etc) and we still pay nearly $580/month.
My wife and I are incredibly fortunate; we can afford this. But how many working families can do this? Sure, the Swiss can, but it’s an incredibly wealthy nation of 6 million – that and they accept trillions in unscrupulous deposits from despots worldwide.
DougJ
We haven’t busted our asses the last four years to pass bank bailouts and give insurance companies everything they ever wanted. If we wanted that, we’d be Republicans.
I don’t know about you, but I’ll feel pretty good knowing that I busted my ass to get 40 million Americans health insurance, if that’s the outcome here. Let’s be clear (as Obama would say): a public option would save lots of money and provide actual competition for insurance companies. Dropping it is a bad, bad thing.
But to people who don’t have insurance now but will after the bill (assuming one passes), it will still be a good bill.
There are millions of people whose lives are truly fucked up by lack of health insurance. This is about them, not about us and our tantrums and our the asses we busted.
Let’s at least be clear about that much.
eyepaddle
@Chris Andersen 84
Well, maybe you can show us a few cases where things DID go according to progressive desires, and then make a list where we get shafted in order to appease “The Center” and we’ll see which list is longer.
Olly McPherson
“But to people who don’t have insurance now but will after the bill (assuming one passes), it will still be a good bill.
There are millions of people whose lives are truly fucked up by lack of health insurance. This is about them, not about us and our tantrums and our the asses we busted.
Let’s at least be clear about that much.”
Ok, granted, sure. But is Obama making clear that’s what he’s advocating? Is it a consistent, repeated talking point? Because right now I’m hearing a lot about reform and reducing costs, and I don’t think the clear moral imperative of ensuring that people have health insurance is coming through.
And I follow politics. Imagine the message that’s surfacing on the subject for people who just read the paper/watch the news/etc. That’s a big problem, and I think Obama is failing to define the debate here.
Also, “if that’s the outcome here.” Seems like a big “if,” given the track record of his administration so far.
gwangung
Blathering on boards aside…
If progressives AREN’T as active in the public arena as the wingnuts…then the US doesn’t deserve health care reform. And progressives really DON’T want reform that badly.
If folks are giving up now, then you really don’t want reform. And if you’re battling for reform, you have to realize that you have to battle now AND in the future. If you sit back, then it’s not going to get done.
HRA
Cain: “Last I looked the executive branch doesn’t make any laws. Maybe you’re barking up the wrong tree? I still dont’ understand why the fuck people keep blaming Obama for this when you can see the malfeasance going on in the U.S. Senate. What the fuck do you expect Obama to do, exactly? The senate is answerable to the U.S. public.”
Thank you for the above. Reading the comments here and in other blogs has made me crazed by the targeting of the executive branch for legislation.
Yes, you are also right in saying “call your Congressman”.
How many times does President Obama have to say I can’t do it alone – I need your help?
gratefulcub
There are millions of people whose lives are truly fucked up by lack of health insurance. This is about them, not about us and our tantrums and our the asses we busted.
Exactly. And, millions more that don’t realize they are fucked until they get sick and have to use the insurance they have.
I would prefer a single payer system. But, if we are going to have private insurers, then let’s make them play by an adequate set of rules.
-no pre-existing conditions
-everyone is covered at the same rate
-a mandate that everyone gets health insurance
We may have to wait until the next republican administration to get cost controls. Remember, when Republicans offer cost cutting measures it is fiscal responsibilitiy, when democrats do it, it is the Youth in Asia.
joes527
@DougJ:
Why do you believe that this will make it to the final bill? Do you think that Republicans will run out of outrage? Do you think that Democrats will grow a spine? Or are you just assuming that the future will not resemble the past?
someguy
Fixed.
Sentient Puddle
Ech…
Y’know, before anything else, I think it would help if a lot of people calmed down, stopped laying eggs, and took a minute to get a basic understanding on how legislation gets enacted. As in, quit assuming that electing Obama meant that health care reform lays on his shoulders alone and nobody else’s. I mean Christ almighty, we are not electing a dictator every four years, folks.
If you need to direct your anger somewhere (and I do absolutely agree that there is plenty of anger to let out), unload it on people like Max Baucus or Kent Conrad. These are the people who have the power to undermine the public option and are doing so. Demonizing Obama for playing the best he can with a shitty hand doesn’t do anyone any good.
Olly McPherson
And to all those who say progressive are aggressive/obnoxious enough–remember when the wingnuts had to badger Bush and the Republican Congress for months after the 2002 election for those tax cuts?
Uh, neither do I. Say what you will about the Republicans, but at least they try to actually accomplish what they campaigned on (or even what they didn’t, a la Social Security in 2004).
Olly McPherson
And to all those who say progressive aren’t aggressive/obnoxious enough–remember when the wingnuts had to badger Bush and the Republican Congress for months after the 2002 election for those tax cuts?
Uh, neither do I. Say what you will about the Republicans, but at least they try to actually accomplish what they campaigned on (or even what they didn’t, a la Social Security in 2004).
Mark S.
@Awesom0:
$580 a month? Is that just for the basic coverage?
The Raven
The thing Nate is missing is that this isn’t going to be the last concession. Remember what the stimulus bill ended up looking like–a huge giveaway to the banks, with a couple of fillips for the upper middle class and nothing, nothing, for anyone with an income under $100,000/year. This is probably going to end up the similar: a huge giveaway to the insurance companies, a somewhat smaller giveaway to big pharma, and a mandate that’s going to hurt the middle class a lot. I’ll probably be writing more at my own blog on this, but the upshot is, I think any bill we now get is as likely to make matters worse than better.
Which means…more food for corvids. Croak!
Olly McPherson
Sorry for the double post–I thought I caught the “are” vs. “aren’t” correction in time.
EthylEster
@Awesom0: is it not the case that folks unable to afford your coverage are subsidized by the swiss government? that is my understanding.
and the fact that swiss banks have radically different notions of banking privacy really has NOTHING to do with their health care program. or are you implying that the government gets a cut of those funds and then uses that cut to fund health care?
WTF?
$580/month for 2 to get high quality coverage.
i’d spring for that.
my company pays more than that for just me.
and there are caps, copays and deductibles.
DougJ
Why do you believe that this will make it to the final bill? Do you think that Republicans will run out of outrage? Do you think that Democrats will grow a spine? Or are you just assuming that the future will not resemble the past?
I don’t know that it will, hence the “if”.
Tax Analyst
ninerdave said:
“Bonus question: What ever happened to skepticism? It occurred to me with all the non-sense floating around “Death Panels” that skepticism is essentially dead in this country. I mean really when you hear non-sense like that, shouldn’t your first reaction be: that can’t be right.”
Skepticism is reserved for ideas that have at least a trace of coherency in them and could produce scenarios that you could envision without having to smoke an ounce of crack first.
The “Death Panel” card isn’t even in the deck and yet there are people who adamantly insist it will be the next card that you will be dealt…and yet there are some people out there who believe them.
Awesom0
@Marks:
$580 a month? Is that just for the basic coverage?
Yup, and that’s for a communal bed (in a room with at least 6 people) and a 2500CFF co-pay.
Now, before I get all high-and-mighty on all this, perhaps another Swiss reader will tell me I bought “Honest Earl’s” health insurance. If this is the case, PLEASE let me know because this co-pay is killing me!
Here is the link to the biggest insurance comparison shopping site in Switzerland: http://www.comparis.ch/comparis/default.aspx
Yes, you can find a cheaper plan, but it aint any damn good.
srv
@Cassidy in Iraq:
You better get with the program if you don’t intend on settling down there permanently. Abu Isra is the only clown you have.
Awesom0
@Marks:
PS – This policy does not include dental, vision or maternity.
Awesom0
@EthylEster
$580/month for 2 to get high quality coverage.
i’d spring for that.
my company pays more than that for just me.
and there are caps, copays and deductibles.
So shitty is our baseline? So, should we also torture suspects because our enemies do? Oh wait…
Granted, the torture analogy was completely unfair, but I hope you get my point.
Corner Stone
@mcc:
What the heck are you talking about?? Major figures in the WH have come out floating this! Specifically Sebelius and Obama!
Manufactured storm?
AnotherBruce
I understand the public option is not available to everyone, but if I’m reading this correctly it is available to everyone in one sense. If you change your employers it offers you a way to be insured even if new prospective employers don’t offer health care insurance. or if your current employer drops their coverage you are eligible for the p.o.. Am I right about this? I
Corner Stone
@matoko_chan:
Even one with a mandate to purchase, co-ops with no cost controls, and no way to effectively regulate rescision and pre-existing denials?
Cuz that’s where this is going at this rate.
Makewi
@Calouste:
The longevity rate is something of a non starter. The rates in the US are lower in part because of to the great number of deaths due to auto accidents and homicide. The infant mortality rate is absolutely more of a health care concern, but even that one is not as clear cut as one might hope.
Infant Mortality – The chart breaking it down by race is most telling. I read a study once which indicated that apart from access to health care and the greater likelihood of being poor and thus needing to work the simple fact of being black in the US can be stressful enough to cause preterm delivery. This, of course, is a conversation in and of itself.
Corner Stone
@matoko_chan:
I just fundamentally disagree with this assessment.
Sly
Nobody buys elected officials in the United States. They’re much cheaper to rent.
A public option would destroy the current insurance model, which forces them to compete in terms of risk selection. I need to deny more claims than the other company in order to succeed. The bigger I am, and the smaller the risk pool I’m operating in is, the easier this becomes. But if you have a public (or large enough non-profit) plan that doesn’t engage in risk selection, suddenly they have an all new competitive framework. And some of these companies likely won’t survive, because insurance without risk selection is no where near as profitable. Not because the new system is bad, but because Stephen Hemsley won’t have a $1.3 million salary (which doesn’t include other compensation).
Co-Ops do nothing to change this. They’d be too small to enlarge the risk pool, and would thus be undercut by larger for-profit insurers. That’s the way BCBS was turned into the Spawn of Satan in the 80s and 90s. They can work well as a delivery mechanism, in the same way Kaiser is the
bestleast terrible HMO in the country. But as a reimbursement mechanism, they are failure writ large.The insurance industry, and their handmaidens in Congress, know this. Even their investors know this, as HMO share prices have risen over the past few days amid the uncertainty of the PO’s future.
Tax Analyst
@ #100 gwangun said:
“If folks are giving up now, then you really don’t want reform. And if you’re battling for reform, you have to realize that you have to battle now AND in the future. If you sit back, then it’s not going to get done.”
What? You mean I had to do more than vote for Obama and buy a campaign button? Waaahhh! It’s so much easier to sit here and complain about him not doing enough. You want us to “Work for change?” Just who do you think you are talking to, Mister (or “Miss” as the case may be)?
And if we don’t get what we want we’ll just pout and talk about moving to another country.
It’s been mentioned in this thread, but I’ll repeat anyway – Health Care Reform is a HUGE issue and will not be completely addressed in a single bill at this time. I think it is important to get a foot in the door this year to keep the issue on the table and moving forward. I hope that what gets passed this year (I’m pretty sure SOMETHING will pass and get signed) isn’t just ineffective window dressing. Once a plan is established it moves the focus to improving what it is rather than struggling to get anything at all against a decaying political party hell-bent on outright killing the idea solely for political gain. That in itself would remove most of the outright insane arguments from the discussion and give them back to the tin-foil hat brigade where they rightfully belong.
Sly
Generally speaking: Yes. But this has more to do with the exchange than the public option.
Anyone who doesn’t have insurance can use the exchange to expand the risk pool they’re in, and use that leverage to buy either cheaper private insurance or buy into a public plan. The insurer practices allowed within the exchange, from premium rates to how claims are handled, will either be dictated by regulation (as in the Netherlands) or through competition with the public option. The better the public option is, in terms of consumer protection, the less regulation there needs to be.
NobodySpecial
If you believe that even the watered down public option needs to be kicked overboard, then go outside and start picking who you want to die with no health care. The bitter cynic in me assumes it’ll be the same people who are doing it now.
MBSS
i’d like to propose a new meme.
democrats are not spineless. in fact they have spines of steel.
they will draw lines in the sand and fight mercilessly for their constituents: corporations.
what’s up with the meme “the right fights harder and is louder than progressives.” bullshit. the frothing right’s demands simply line up with corporate interests, so that’s what is enacted.
there is one party. the corporate party. you can yell and scream all you want.
millionsbillions of dollars tell me exactly what’s going to happen next. you think you gave obama some money? goldman sachs gave him more. lost cause, vote 3rd party.Meg
So, when is the million-people march for the public option?
This Saturday?
I can’t wait to join.
Elie
Again — I just read awesome naivete on this thread and many others on this site…
I think that nothing has been permanently “lost” as we do not have a bill that is in final form to have been “lost”. We have a lot of confusing information from interviews with various people and a media and right wing that are eager to tip the scales and call a period of pause as a loss.
It is not.
Folks, this is very complex stuff and lots of pieces have to come together to not just design this but then to implement it. There are all kinds of negotiations and information and research going on — a lot behind the scenes and all over.
You all again seem to think that its a well laid out step by step, totally visible, linear process which parts of it are, but not all. There is value to letting the opposition flare, to let all parties speak up, or not…How do you size up the opposition?
It is totally important to keep contacting our representatives and pushing what we advocate as well as attending all meetings where one is allowed to speak up for what we want.
Those of you throwing in the towel at this early date are not true advocates. You are like fans who show up for the Super Bowl but don’t participate in anything before that…fair weather friends.
This is hard stuff. Very hard and many times ultimate wins look like losses first. But go on — jump ship and help the right finish everything off…thats the ticket!
Olly McPherson
“Those of you throwing in the towel at this early date are not true advocates. You are like fans who show up for the Super Bowl but don’t participate in anything before that…fair weather friends.”
I’d say it’s more like being a Detroit Lions fan for your entire life and then deciding, absent any sense of progress, to take your Sundays back.
matoko_chan
Cornerstone, yup.
did you see the Cato Institute piece I linked?
In Kristol’s own words, any healthcare reform will doom the GOP.
lets start with acadame.
6% of scientists are republicans.
65% and increasing of ppl with postgrad degrees are dems
Who teaches at universities?
teaching research scientists and ppl with masters and doctoral degrees.
Do you relly want to argue any of the others?
let me know.
;)
matoko_chan
I wonder what the insurance companies think about co-ops and vouchers for health-insurance reform.
Isn’t bluecross a co-op already?
Elie
TaxAnalyst@124
What you said
Brachiator
@Elie:
Folks, this is very complex stuff and lots of pieces have to come together to not just design this but then to implement it. There are all kinds of negotiations and information and research going on—a lot behind the scenes and all over.
It’s harder than it need be. Let’s roll the videotape:
http://www.ssa.gov/history/1960.html
This was the Medicare program. There was a lot of work in the background, and some arm-twisting, but it got done in a reasonable amount of time with its major goals intact. And how did Republicans react to this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States)
The Democrats should be eating the Republicans alive on this issue with frightened seniors, simply by holding a mirror up to the GOP’s own words.
While I haven’t given up on the prospect of seeing health care reform brought about, the current administration, and the Congress, are not making it easy to defend their efforts.
Cain
@Awesom0:
Been there and, in fact, continue to do that! I started volunteering for Obama back on Spring 2007. I maxed out my private donations. I spent countless weekends canvassing in Virginia to bring him this state. I’ve done my part, now I expect our LEADERS or exercise LEADERSHIP.
Excellent, but we still need to do that to our fellow constituents. Obama can only make speeches and what not the pressure has to come from us on Senators. The senate though is where our target should be, not Obama. Put the squeeze on them and they’ll pop for us. We can’t let republicans and their loudmouth operatives drown us out. That’s the thing… start agitating ourselves. Put those bastards in their place.
cain
Cain
@Cassidy in Iraq: Wow, that was awesome! Did you really say that with a straight face? Before you say something like that, why don’t you come over to my neck of the woods and ask some Iraqis what they think.
I would bet their opinion is probably going to be the same as mine. al-Maliki sucks. I dont’ know how that moron got there but there is got to be a better guy then him.
cain
Meg
Ok, I just wrote my senators and congressman.
But I still would like to have a million-people march for public option!
This Saturday?
DaBomb
@Brachiator: Ok, but you just actually proved Elie’s point. It took 20 years for a comprehensive Medicare plan to to be enacted. And it took LBJ with all of the arm twisting a full year. President Obama is trying to accomplish this by the end of the year.
Lots work going on and lots of kabuki.
Corner Stone
@matoko_chan: Yes. In fact, yes I really do.
Would you consider churches a cultural organ? Who owns them?
Would you consider ABC, NBC, or CBS the MSM? Wo owns them?
For every liberal arts college there is an SMU, University of CHI, etc.
What companies pay for that research, or supply those grants?
That was in the 90’s. As I think a few people would agree, some things done changed round heah!
If HRC is passed that includes some kind of mandate, but no PO, and no enforceable regulatory effort – you think the Dems can actually sell that as a win?? Or the common populace will look back 4 years, or 8 years, from now and be thankful for how much better their lives are?
Corner Stone
@Corner Stone: Clearly that was meant to be HCR.
I just can’t let go of my enduring love for Hill.
(Gasp!Sob!)
Comrade Luke
I can’t believe that “progressives” here are saying that it’s not a big deal to lose the public option because they get insurance from their employers when we’re approaching an unemployment rate of 10%.
You guys sound like you’re in Congress.
Brachiator
@DaBomb:
Not at all. You could go back and count getting Medicare from FDR’s administration if you want to “demonstrate” that it takes a long time to get health care reform. But you could also use this kind of chronology to decide that one can never get health care.
The Democrats knew from past experience what roadblocks the Republicans might throw up. They had the recent experience of the opposition to the Clinton health care plan.
It is ridiculous for Obama and the Congress not to have had a more developed plan in place, as well as a strategy for getting it implemented.
LBJ used his political skill and his knowledge of the nuts and bolts of how Congress worked to get things done. Pelosi, Reid and the other Congressional Democrats seem happy just to be Congressional leaders. And Obama is being pointlessly deferential to both Congress and to the Republican opposition.
Most of all, Congress seems to be afraid to fail. Much like the media, they are now a bunch of careerists, with cushy jobs and a fair degree of celebrity. They make gestures towards public service, and then give up and waddle up to the trough of cash and perks that the corporate interests pour out for them to feed on, and eagerly fill their bellies.
But just as many of us got tired of hearing how hard it was going to be for Obama to deal with the GOP’s Rovian tactics in the general election, I am tired of people whining about how tough it is for the Democrats to get health care done, especially when they seem to be willing to strip out features of the plan just because some wingnut fool snarls at them.
Makewi
@Brachiator:
It is has been fairly widely reported that barring some action, Medicare will be bankrupt by 2019. This hardly seems like a selling point for the current health care reform debate.