So wingnuts are now leaving threatening messages at the SEIU headquarters and urging each other to carry guns to the health care meetings, and I wonder- when this escalates and someone is killed, will the folks who have been whipping these people feel the least bit ashamed? Will the folks who have been lying about euthanizing seniors feel responsible in the slightest? Will all the seniors on government run Medicare feel silly for screaming socialism? Will John McCain, who has spent every single day of his life prospering under socialist government run medicine try to walk things back?
Will Jon Henke post some more Monty Python videos?
I’m so sick of these people. Just angry, angry, angry. And they are being manipulated by people who know better for purely political reasons. Just evil.
Derelict
Will they feel responsible? No. They never do.
After Poplawski killed those cops because right-wing radio said Obama would take away his guns, there was no remorse or even reflection.
After Tiller was killed, O’Rielly blamed his death on liberals. Again, no remorse or even reflection.
They’ll figure out some way to blame it all on liberals. Their own incitements of the mob will be as thought they never happened. They will, however, secretly rejoice when their mob turns violent and liberals get killed.
Zifnab
Ask that question again on November 5th, 2010.
If the polls close next year, and the GOP suffer another route, someone somewhere is going to start feeling really stupid. If this shit sticks, and we see another ’94 Gingrich Revolution, it’ll be another turn of the wheel. We’ll see this again and again and again, until someone pays a political price for it.
El Cid
This is all us liberals’ fault for daring to propose a health care reform for our disastrously broken and harmful system to perhaps be passed by our elected majorities but which right wing Republicans and especially right wing Southern and Western populists don’t like.
How dare we threaten the Republic by aiming to do things which unelected tiny minorities of right wingers don’t want?
Ash Can
If something hits the fan, they’ll immediately blame it on Obama and the Democrats. Take it to the bank.
In short, no.
The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America
Ryder Van. (And I promise this is the last time I will mention it. But I’m afraid it will happen again — or something akin to it.) The frothing, irrational rage really smells eerily similar.
Just Some Fuckhead
Hahahahahahahahaha.
Now who’s being naive?
JK
Reactions to Rush Limbaugh’s Obama/Hitler comparison by Glenn Greenwald
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
Right Wing Whackjob uses Anne Frank Photograph to portray the Obama administration as Nazis
Achtung! Do you know this girl? Report her to the White House
http://perfunction.typepad.com…..execs.html
h/t James Wolcott http://www.vanityfair.com/onli…..evels.html
AP Omits George Sodini’s Obama References
http://www.eandppub.com/2009/0…..ences.html
h/t Joan Walsh
http://www.salon.com/opinion/w…..index.html
El Cid
@Just Some Fuckhead: Yeah. There was such a soul-searching on the right after their “patriot” anti-Clinton paranoia movement and billionaire-funded propaganda campaign about the Clinton body count and Vince Foster etc led to the Oklahoma City bombing. It was really moving. If there’s one thing the modern conservative movement is known for over the past four decades it’s its ability to meaningfully reflect upon its actions.
Joe Max
In answer to your question, no, they won’t.
Collateral damage, you know. Gotta break a few eggs, etc…
JenJen
I like the way the threatening message left to the SEIU ends with the caller saying, “Stop the violence.”
Nice touch!!
HumboldtBlue
Maybe some young intrepid journalist can get themselves shot while covering one of these events. Then we can all call that journalist and asshole and an idiot for putting themselves in harms way. Double points if said young journalist also happens to be the parent of a toddler.
General Winfield Stuck
What JSF said. Glen Beck after weeks and months of rabble rousing talk of death and destruction for white people under the Obamunist, has denounced violence to his followers. Once, maybe twice, before returning to his “we’re all gonna die lest we do something drastic” ranting.
Brachiator
No. Of course not. They’re patriots and “real Americans” defending their country against the socialist menace.
No again. Medicare is just them getting their taxes back. They are hard-working “real Americans” and the country owes them. It’s these other folks, especially those who are not really Americans, illegal immigrants and people with falsified birth certificates.
The whole thing is shameful, but the GOP, the insurance companies and the corporate interests must be having a great time seeing how easy it has been to divide the country.
Next you’ll have teabaggers calling for the end of the FDIC. Why should the government insure bank deposits. If people are too stupid to magically know which banks might fail, they shouldn’t have any money.
OT: Intermittent WordPress errors. Using Windows and Google Chrome
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Legalize
Of course not. It will be the fault of Obama, the librul media and the stinking communist trash who forced a god-fearing patriot to shoot him 5 times in the back, neck and head. With no compensation for the expense mind you.
beltane
The people disrupting these town halls are scary, but they are also kind of pathetic. They are actually out there fighting for the right of for-profit insurers to deny care and drive many thousands of people into bankruptcy every year. They themselves could easily be one of these people (except for the old folks, whose health care is being paid for via other people busting their asses at work), and yet they are willing to kill to keep the status quo. I see them as eager victims; sometimes I get a sadistic urge to start up a business, hire a bunch of wingnuts, and screw them over on overtime, sick leave, etc. If they complained I’d tell them they must hate America.
Incertus
This is already out of hand, and I’m really afraid that someone is going to die over this. And all because people like Our Lady of Perpetual Outrage and Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh just want to get their hate on.
Xel
Stop wearing short skirts and dancing suggestively if you are so afraid of getting shot by random aggrieved white dudes.
Darius
The Atlantic outdoes itself: Why The Brawls of August Are Good
JK
Will David Gregory, George Stephanoplous, Bob Schieffer, John King, or Chris Wallace ask any Republican if he or she repudiates Rush Limbaugh’s comparison of Obama and Pelosi to Nazis?
I don’t subscribe to HBO, so I normally go to YouTube to watch Real Time with Bill Maher. Last week, only a few segments of the show were posted. I don’t want to use ITunes. Are there any other websites besides YouTube where I might be able to watch last week’s episode of Real Time with Bill Maher?
winguts to iraq
@HumboldtBlue: yikes.
Mnemosyne
Nope.
Nope.
Nope.
Nope.
See, you’re expecting these people to experience silly emotions like “shame” or “remorse” or “responsibility.” All they need to know is that they’re right, damn it, and absolutely no facts will be allowed to damage their self-image as always right. You could have a guy in a Glenn Beck t-shirt shoot Nancy Pelosi and Beck will continue to insist that it was Pelosi’s fault for being such an evil so-cia-list and the things he was saying had absolutely no influence on a guy who would do such a crazy thing, no sirree.
JR
Exactly what will happen:
The deflection and projection that’s characterized so much of the Republican defense of God(win)-fearin’ and occasionally racist Teabaggers, town hall rioters, and (let’s be honest) completely insane Birthers will be used to say that the persons who took their anger out on a crowded meeting hall at some civic center were really the victims here (or, of course, that they were not true Scotsmen). will say that he’d have personally stopped everyone if only he’d been there, and the usual suspects will say that all could have been avoided if only more people went to civic meetings with concealed weapons.
There’s already been a melee in St. Louis, and it’s only the 7th of the month. I’ll be truly surprised if there hasn’t been a killing by Labor Day (hey, maybe that will be when SEIU gets theirs!)
SGEW
Read more Orcinus.
RedKitten
I know. It’s frustrating as hell, because these people are just flat-out refusing to listen to anything that contradicts what they want to believe, and that childishness and willfulness are completely maddening. The stuff that they believe is beyond anything reasonable, but they’re not only hell-bent and determined to believe it, they’re determined to DO something about it, and view anybody who thinks differently as The Enemy.
They’re willful, ignorant, pigheaded, violent, and dangerous as hell, and it’s damn scary to watch.
Andrei
Welcome to your daily dose of double stupid:
http://www.facebook.com/sarahpalin?v=app_2347471856&viewas=1620497386&ref=nf
I simply can’t describe how epic this post is. It’s must read material.
My response:
http://www.rasterblaster.net/orly/
JGabriel
John Cole @ Top:
Maybe over time, but their first response will most likely be to blame the victim and/or describe the shooter as a lefty plant.
What I don’t get — and I said this a couple threads back, but it seems relevant here — is whether they really think that calling labor with death threats is likely to make people back down?
Maybe the wingers really believe labor is a bunch of lefty pussies who are afraid of guns. After all, that’s what they’re been told for four decades. If so, they’re in for quite a shock.
The early history of the labor movement is one of withstanding, and fighting back, against armed corporate mercenaries shooting at them. Amongst the many factions of the progressive coalition, union members are traditionally the most likely to possess arms.
Those kind of threats will most likely lead some people in the labor movement to pack guns themselves, fully prepared to use them in the event that gunfire breaks out, especially with Rush Limbaugh giving out the street address of SEIU headquarters.
It’s almost as if the right wants a bloodbath.
.
John Cole
@HumboldtBlue: They themselves admit they crossed into NoKo unplanned and on a whim. I’m all in favor of journalists doing what they do, but this was an unplanned burst of idiocy on their part.
@Darius: Matt Cooper has always been a complete village idiot.
Hunter
I have never in my adult life felt so disillusioned with the general ignorance and gullibility of a dangerously high percentage of our fellow Americans. Or that so many in leadership positions on the right seem to be utterly devoid of a conscience. It’s inhuman. Some of the Palin rallies in ’08 came close, but this is spiraling out of control before our very eyes. It’s just a matter of time now. Sickening.
JGabriel
Hep me, I’ve been modereratered!
I’m not even sure what I did wrong in that one.
.
General Winfield Stuck
I just hope Canada let’s us put our refugee camps on their side of the border.
p.a.
I guess all modern societies have this sort of mob/totalitarian minority that can be coaxed from under their rocks for political purposes by an amoral political entity. What the leaders seldom seem to realize is that once you start throwing folks on the bonfire (literally or figuratively), it doesn’t stop when the leaders want it to. Ask Robespierre.
joes527
@Ash Can:
Too late. They are already at it.
Scott H
Go armed into an open meeting with a US Congressman… what could go wrong?
Jody
They’ll blame it on Obama and the treasonous left. Just watch.
JGabriel
@John Cole:
Of course, no one here would ever engage in an unplanned burst of idiocy. I’m sure I’ve never done so (unfortunately, I can think of far too many examples, just among my own scribblings, to link to).
.
UnkyT
Regrets are for the weak.
demkat620
Inchoate rage.
Winning or losing elections makes no difference. These are just insane crazy people.
I’ve never been able to tell what they are so mad about.
Violet
Thirty years from now, the same types of people will be shouting “Keep government out of AmericaHealth!” or whatever the public option is called. The idiocy is kind of terrifying.
And no, they won’t feel any remorse. They don’t come equipped with that emotion.
I’m totally sick of them too. Where are people with brains and intelligence in this country? Why can’t they get on TV?
Jim
If we’re gonna talk about McCain, and I think we should, let’s pin point the moment when he heard one of his (or rather, Palin’s) followers yell out, “Kill him!”, and McCain clearly heard it, pretended he didn’t and went on with he speech. Why don’t we call that the moment when all this reached the point of no return. McCain, and his enablers in the media who pretended to believe him when he later claimed he hadn’t heard that.
McCain’s campaign, from the moment he picked Palin, right through the moment he declared Joe the Racist, Lying, Demagoguing notPlumber as his “hero”, his “role model”, to the very end, McCain’s campaign was a low-road appeal to the lowest common denominator, who were all supposed to go back up to the attic after election day. He was only following the GOP playbook going back to Reagan and Nixon, but it’s been getting worse, he let it get worse (‘pallin’ around with terrorisssss”). Let’s make him answer for it.
Then we’ll move on to David “Both Sides Are Equally To Blame” Broder.
Pasquinade
Palin: Obama’s “Death Panel” Could Kill My Down Syndrome Baby
In a new posting on her Facebook account, former Gov. Sarah Palin (R-AK) made a dire statement about health care reform — that it could result in an Obama-created “death panel” killing her infant son with Down Syndrome:
The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/palin-obamas-death-panel-could-kill-my-down-syndrome-baby.php?ref=fpblg
Beauzeaux
@JK: Dunno websites where it can be watched, but if you have access to Usenet newsgroups, you can usually download the whole show a day or two after it is first aired.
Jay B.
They themselves admit they crossed into NoKo unplanned and on a whim.
I haven’t read anything that confirms this. This is all the sister said:”“She said that it was maybe 30 seconds and then everything got chaotic. It’s a very powerful story, and she does want to share it,” Lisa told CNN Thursday.”
No one but the North Koreans have given their side about exactly what happened yet.
freelancer
Here’s a thought. And it’s something that the Southern Strategy has been enacting since 1980. The last nine years have made it especially frightening between the previous administration and now the C Street “Family”
The 80s and 90s were about a cynical GOP ginning up support and electoral votes among Evangelicals by promising action on things like Abortion and School Prayer, but constantly leaving them out to dry. Now we have actual legislators that belong to the fundie bloc in positions of actual power.
I fear the next two decades as a repeat for that party, but with Tax Anarchists, and the armed, paranoid fringe playing the role of the fundies. And don’t ask me for the Venn Diagram, I’m certain there’s a LOT of overlap.
demkat620
And no John, they won’t have any regrets.
They are Adam before the fall. Completely innocent.
Paul L.
But you give a pass to the union thugs who are attacking the wingnuts and the union/Democratic leaders who are encouraging that behavior.
Or do you have the Ezra Klein “There are no union thugs.” blinders?
ksmiami
Bring it on then – I say all the blue states cut the red states off at the knees. We’ve done it before and we can do it again. First Obama needs to call these people out and their leaders to act like Americans and support the democratic process. Then, out with the frikin knives and he needs to immediately stop funding this trailer trash. I have had it with these vile, Christianist, ignorant fucks
zoe kentucky in pittsburgh
re #25
I think we could be approaching peak wingnut– Sarah Palin quoted Michelle Bachman in her hollow, empty rant against health insurance reform.
Cat Lady
Don’t crazy idiots always get attention way out of proportion to their numbers? Really, most people, and I say this quite confidently, have no idea about, nor are near stupid enough to either know what’s going on or agree with the whackadoodles. Obama has triggered some kind of visceral response in those who live their lives so angrily and marginalized, but I truly believe that the expression on those angry faces and the ugly words are repellant to the majority, who I honestly believe are normal. Remember, Palin’s favorable numbers steadily dropped through the campaign the more people started paying attention to her. Most people don’t like stupid, mean and angry as a rule. The crazy nutjobs flame out, and then it’s done – exhibit A recently is Orly Taitz. We won’t see her again on cable TV any time soon, because she went all in and started to babble. None of these teabaggers are making any sense. It’s all heat and no light, and that can’t last or win out.
kay
@Pasquinade:
Wow. I’m actually shocked by that.
Not shocked that’s she’s exploiting that small child again, but that we’re now at “Obama’s death panel”.
I was confident she’d continue to use the baby. actually, but I’m surprised she’s using such a straightforward smear. She’s usually clumsily deceptive, just as a general rule.
Maybe she winked, and we don’t know it.
steve s
LOL.
mcd
Has anyone aborted Trig Palin or euthanized a senior yet?
/snark
Have we reached Peak Wingnut yet? What’s the forecast? 10-12 named storms this season?
Alan
For those who didn’t hear Limbaugh make his Nazi comparison yesterday. Here it is.
zoe kentucky in pittsburgh
Anyone who blithely uses the phrase “union thugs” shows their anti-union, anti-blue collar roots without even trying.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Cat Lady:
Well, if BOB is any indication..
PurpleGirl
An example please of union thugs attacking wingnuts! Names, place and actions! (Of course as I see it, many of the wingnuts ARE union members who are traitors to the union movement which made them well-paid and middle-class. (I know this from personal knowledge, both my father and several other family members fall into that category.)
ksmiami
But actually, the wingnut behavior is starting to really scare more normal people like my adorable father. As you all know, nothing says “join me” like an angry, seething and REALLY FRICKIN STUPID mob
Alan
@PurpleGirl: There’s a video from last night where this supposedly happened. It only catches the tail end of the fight. The Democrats are foolish to get unions involved.
geg6
I agree with those who are saying that these guys don’t want to pick a fight with union members. Can’t speak for the SEIU, but I am a product of the USW through several generations. One of my grandfathers was involved in organizing the USW local at J&L Steel in Aliquippa, PA. He was a badass. And all the current steelworkers I know (and I still know a few) who are union are badasses still. And gun owners every one. I know lots of union members. They won’t take kindly to threats. This is gonna get ugly fast.
Anon
People who talk about Roeder (the guy who killed Tiller) and Poplawski are thinking too small. All this stuff about internment camps, euthanasia boards, Obama is setting up a totalitarian state where everyone will inform on each other. This is the stuff of militia fantasies and they’re mainstreaming it.
Think Timothy McVeigh.
Leelee for Obama
Oddly, I keep hearing Fred Thompson’s line in Red October about things getting out of hand. Irony ain’t dead after all. Wonder if he’s had any second thoughts?
Ha, Leelee made a little joke, no?
Chuck Butcher
There was a time when union organizers went out to gun fights armed with sticks and for their trouble died or went to their graves (like my grandfather) with corporate mercenaries’ bullets in them. In those days most were too poor to afford firearms or simply eschewed owning them. The Wobblies were a bit different. Today is a bit different.
Taking guns to hotly disputed issue meeting is a bad idea and if alcohol gets involved a worse idea. (other drugs also) I own a lot of guns and I wouldn’t take one and I’d encourage anyone to think of the consequences of gunfire in a crowded and chaotic situation.
The idea that this spittle flecked fear driven bunch of ignoramouses would get involved in a “civil war” is ludicrous. This idea proposes that a bunch that is this scared by an amorphous bunch of bills would somehow be willing to stand up to gunfire – you have got to be kidding. It is one thing to scream and push in a consequence free environment and another to risk physical harm. This ain’t ’68 Chicago by any stretch of imagination, much less a revolt.
I think it becomes more likely with each passing day that someone will get actually hurt in one of these scrums. It will most likely be someone completely innocent. There will be no regret on the right for reasons already stated by many others.
Perry Como
@Darius: When the fuck did I get a job writing for The Atlantic? Even though I don’t remember being that good at concern trolling.
Tom
” . . . and they’re mainstreaming it.”
Have to disagree with you, Anon. They’re *mainlining it,* as if it was heroin.
So much rage and adrenalin are profoundly addictive.
And the voices on the radio really are telling them it’s okay. In that regard, they’re not delusional.
This self-righteous grandiosity and arrogation of the right to use lethal force against perceived inhuman threats . . . that’s the stuff of masturbatory dreams for such immature credulists.
Cui bono?
Anon
Also, that video that Andy has is terrifyingly hilarious. I liked this part:
Insane guy: My son will be neglected if your bill is passed!
Dingell: Uh…that’s not true at all.
IG: No! No no no!
latts
@geg6:
God, I hope not– while it would be satisfying as hell to watch a bunch of bullies turn tail & run, they’d run straight to the media with the usual tale about liberals starting it and all they wanted was to exercise their rights and see what happens when socialists/commies/Nazis are empowered waaaahhhhh… And the media like the doting, oblivious teacher whose golden child is Ted frickin’ Bundy, will absolutely agree. IOW, that really would turn public opinion against us.
One of the many sucky things about being liberal is how heavy the burden of decency always is, especially when opposing people with absolutely no constraints of civility or honesty.
Anon
I also liked the exchange between the Fox News guy and Dingell at the end. (I should probably make clear that I’m interpreting their statements here.)
Dingell: Man, those people were completely bugfuck insane.
Fox New Guy: Yeah, but they were really loud, weren’t they?
malraux
Yeah, take a look at the clinton years. Rightwing violence and violent rhetoric certainly didn’t tap down then, even after events like Oklahoma City. The right was hard core into black helicopter nonsense, with militia groups bunkering down in preparation for the UN takeover. Meanwhile, the republicans felt the most pressing issue facing the nation was the whereabouts of Clinton’s penis, arguing that he was using Bin Laden as a distraction.
So no; no they will not have any regrets.
latts
@geg6:
Oh, crap– I didn’t adjust a flagged word & am now in moderation. Repost:
God, I hope not—while it would be satisfying as hell to watch a bunch of bullies turn tail & run, they’d run straight to the media with the usual tale about liberals starting it and all they wanted was to exercise their rights and see what happens when soci-a-lists/commies/Nazis are empowered waaaahhhhh… And the media like the doting, oblivious teacher whose golden child is Ted frickin’ Bundy, will absolutely agree. IOW, that really would turn public opinion against us.
One of the many sucky things about being liberal is how heavy the burden of decency always is, especially when opposing people with absolutely no constraints of civility or honesty.
kay
@Anon:
I think this “movement” is too corporate for that.
McVeigh was completely alienated. He knew he was out of the mainstream. Tea Party people think they are the mainstream. One of them was screaming in anguish at the thought of insurance companies not making a profit. They’re people who feel that corporations need volunteer lobbyists, and sign up! I hear them passionately defending Wal Mart on the C-SPAN call-in line, from all comers. I always marvel at how they volunteer for poor widdle defenseless Wal Mart, but pick a corporation, it doesn’t matter. They’re “for”.
McVeigh looked at several sites to blow up. He had requirements. One of them was that the federal building house at least two federal police entities, so FBI + DEA, etc.
These people love the police, madly and completely. I just think it’s different.
El Cid
@kay: For questions regarding right wingers spinning into violence and domestic terror, you don’t look at the center of the movements — i.e., not the Olin and Scaife billionaires funding paranoid publications and advertising on shortwave radio programs, not their wingnut welfare ‘think tanks’, not their faux protest movements — but at the periphery, at the deniables, at the ‘leaderless resistance’, the assorted nuts who hear and believe what the masters say. That’s where the violence erupts.
JGabriel
John Cole:
Y’know, that would be a great band name.
.
JGabriel
John Cole:
On second thought, it’s probably a great description of the circumstances regarding my conception.
.
El Cid
O no! Why is Obama gonna kill Sarah Palin’s baby?
That’s what this whole thing has been about — all of health care reform has just been about liberals trying to kill Trig Palin!!!
It all makes sense now!
Anon
@kay: Did Richard Poplawski love the police? I think that would be news to him. In any case, whatever these people might feel about their corporations or their local police department, the ideas being pushed about the federal government could be coming right out of the Turner Diaries (with Islam substituted for Judaism).
Of course I’m not saying that all these townhall protesters are future Tim McVeighs. But if you push 10% of the population from being unhinged to crazy and angry, then you’re going to end up pushing the former 1% of the population that was crazy and angry to being really truly insane. And some of the 0.01% (or whatever) who had been entertaining violent fantasies are going to decide that it’s time to stop fantasizing and start killing people. We’ve seen this on a small-scale already. It’s seeming more and more likely to me that in the not-too-distant future we’ll see someone who thinks a bit bigger.
Bubblegum Tate
@Jody:
Oh, it’s already underway. All the violence, you see, is the work of ACORN/SEIU goons. And the stuff that clearly is wingnut tantrumers…well, that’s just ACORN/SEIU goons pretending to be wingnuts. You know, to discredit the good name the wingnuts have created for themselves.
This country is sofa king tarded.
PurpleGirl
Okay, from what I’ve gathered from different news stories, the teabaggers claimed they were locked out of the meeting (as if Bush and the republicans didn’t control tickets and keep protesters out of his public meetings); there was a fight but I didn’t see any details as to who started it. The very fact that you (and people like faux news) are using the term thug to describe union members shows a disrespect and prejudice against any union member.
Yes, my use of the terms wingnut and teabaggers also shows a disrespect of them. I owe no apology for this, but I think wingnut and teabagger are quite mild compared to thug.
El Cid
It would be sort of funny to bring some Pinkerton anti-union goons up from a century ago and try to convince them that the real goon threat here are these ACORN organizers with their clip-boards and their threatening black skins.
They’d be pretty damned insulted at your use of the word ‘goon’, because, hey, they knew from ‘goon’.
kay
@El Cid:
It’s a good point. A single crazed gun nut is well within the realm of the possible.
The militia people always struck me as serious, in a way tea party people are not. That’s why I was spooked by what I believed, and still believe, was active agitation of them by mainstream right wing media. I thought they would attract dead-serious crazies, and they did.
Tea Party people want to scuttle Obama’s agenda, and get rid of those DemoRATS in Congress, and, oh, by the way, hands off my Medicare, NOBAMA!
Militia members wanted to unseat Congress. Permanently. They wanted a return to a loose confederation of states, with no real central government. They thought the country was gone, and had been replaced with an international order, and no one knew it but them.
The Raven
“…when this escalates and someone is killed, will the folks who have been whipping these people feel the least bit ashamed?”
My word, no. This is what they have wanted all long.
I suspect, however, that most of the USA will turn against them. There is not very much support for this–it’s just getting scads of coverage.
Trinity
@The Raven:
Anon
@kay: Why are you using the past tense to refer to militia members?
El Cid
This ain’t the 1990s. America is god-damned tired of these nit-wits’ bullsh*t.
Chris Johnson
Remember, especially if you’re a union badass or radical lefty who knows jackboots exist: they DO WANT YOU to react with lethal force.
These are true believer type authoritarian followers in a state of advanced hysteria. It’s not about any of the facts, so don’t even waste your time attempting reason.
It’s not about them being cowardly, either, so don’t shoot first or escalate things too hard on them if you can at all avoid it.
Every psycho is a potential suicide-bomber or suicide-gunner.
Every psycho shot down while they run amok is a potential MARTYR.
We have met the terrorists, and they are us.
To declare war on them (as maddening as their aggression is!) will be about as useful as Bush declaring war on ‘terror’ and will work about as well. You’ll just stoke them up more.
This is a POLICE PROBLEM, not a war. It’s mass quantities of insane terrorists. What you do is you try to contain it, you maintain your civilized attitude rather than matching their state of hysteria, and you ride it out until you’re able to engage those people on democratic terms again, not fascistic terms.
There is a LOT of work to do and don’t give up. We could end up taking a lot of terrorist damage from our dear little rightwingers while they are in full boil. I personally hope I live through it all, since I’m not important or terribly political, but that’s not a given as we now have terrorists right at home.
Stay safe and civilised, folks, to the best of your abilities. Orcinus is right: the hour has struck. We can’t fight our way out of this one.
kay
@The Raven:
I saw Obama’s Gallup number was up quite a bit from the low. 52 to 58. I’m taking that as a good sign, although it probably doesn’t mean anything without more. I so want the country to resist this crazy. There’s just nothing good about this. They can debate health care, and I’m ready to do that, but this isn’t a debate. It’s just a mob.
Calouste
@Mnemosyne:
And even if something like that happened and the people in question made a full confession, the wingnuts would say that it is a Stalinist show trial and that the confessions were got by torture. Because as we all know, when you apply torture to “real Americans ™”, they will just tell a lie to the torturers to get out of it, but when you apply it to brown people, they will always the truth.
El Cid
Obama’s poll numbers may be lower right now, but when you have results you can separate out, it appears that his drop in support is nearly entirely due to Republicans liking him less, while his support among Democrats and Independents (especially outside the South) remains very, very strong. So who cares if Republicans are pooping their pants?
kay
@Anon:
I don’t have a thing to base it on, Anon, but I just think that particular survivalist mentality will not appeal to our current group of Republicans. Who completely lost their shit when gasoline went to 4 dollars a gallon. Oh, the humanity. Remember that? It’s when they actually turned on Bush, if you look at polls alongside gas prices. When it cost a lot to fill up the ‘ol SUV. They were all put-out ‘n pouty.
Militia members were (by and large) rural people. They built their own barns and such, dug wells, etc. Murdering, evil maniacs, but capable.
SpotWeld
The most horrible prank in the world right now would be to get some vinyl magnetic decals make up of the ACORN logo and slap them onto random cars in the parking lots of those town hall meetings.
Dave
Trenchant analysis.
Redshirt
I’ve come to a realization that others seem to be having as well. That this is a war, and it’s been going on for a while now, and only one side is using guns and bombs. BUT! As well put above, we cannot respond in kind, regardless of how much we desire to strike back in the name of justice, tolerance, and the liberty. We must simply practice non-violent resistance and use the democratic ways of government to enact the real change we need. I would say we should try and reason with these people, but some – most? – are beyond reason.
I pray Obama and everyone stays safe. I fear all the same. This is it — the death throes of an old order (white majority in the country) and the emergence of a new, more dynamic social fabric. Just as America – the great Melting Pot – is meant to be: Home of freedom for the entire world.
Anon
@kay: Again, Kay, we are not talking about Republicans in general. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that 35% (or whatever it is now) of all Americans are going to start running around blowing things up.
We are talking about the craziest of the crazy. They’re still around and surely having their insane beliefs being more-or-less parroted back to them by mainstream figures is going to encourage them.
mclaren
As Michael Moore points out, you have to admire the Repubs. Even when they’re completely lost the debate, they carry on using pure ferocity. If liberals had shown one tenth that much ferocity in pushing indictments for the drunk-driving C student who formerly infested the Oval Office, shouting and causing riots at every public appearance Attny. Gen. Eric Holder and Barack Obama ever held, those scumbags from the previous maladministration would be in the dock right now.
mcd
@PurpleGirl: Yes, horrible union members, like firefighters and policemen and, gulp, teachers. The worst of the worst.
/snark
#deathpanel. Also.
Jennifer
Just my .02, but I think a lot of this could be dialed back with some strategery on our part. Come on, this ain’t hard; we’re a lot smarter than they are.
Have security there – plenty of it. Lay out groundrules on conduct; remove people who can’t behave.
Turn out supporters to show up early and keep the agitators to a minimum inside the venue.
And then, be prepared to take notes and call out the crazy coming from the nutters in the meeting, as in, “Mrs. Jones, you said this bill was going to make it legal to euthanize seniors. Can you tell me what version of the bill that’s in – there are 5 of them right now – and what section and page I can find that on? Have you seen and read it yourself? If not, how did you hear about it? If you haven’t seen and read it yourself, how do you know it’s in there? Isn’t this a pretty sensational claim – you know, the kind of thing you don’t hear every day…doesn’t it seem strange that it’s not being reported by the media? You think no one in the media has elderly people in their family who they love, and that’s why they’re covering it up? Because they want their parents or grandparents who they love to be euthanized? Do you really believe that?”
And so on and so forth. A respectful Socratic discussion that leads in one direction: this person’s on the train to CrazyTown!!!!
Also publicly shaming the Medicare recipients who are ok with seeing their kids and grandkids go bankrupt from private health care while they enjoy financial security – paid for by their kids and grandkids. And so on.
I really think a lot of this could be dialed way back by just doing a few simple things.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
The Republican movement has been diverted by the lunatics and racists but that is what they get for courting the votes of those animals. Right now, the Republican party needs a new movement, a huge bowel movement to shit out the turds who are clogging up their system so that they once again might become a viable political party. If they can’t halt their descent into insanity they are going to become nothing more than a fringe party.
The Repubs need an industrial sized enema right now, stat.
Regarding health care, the events in the Republican party are much like the events surrounding the sinking of the Titanic. The haves in the lifeboats are trying to keep the steerage and commoners (the have-nots) out of their boat, preferring that they drown rather than trying to save them, all the while trying to make it sound like this behavior is acceptable and necessary.
Regarding the potential for violence, Chuck is right. All we can do is be vigilant and pay close attention to events around us. The nuts would like nothing more than a ‘lefty’ going off and killing some good ol’ (white) Republicans who are only exercising their Constitutional rights. They would use it as a rallying point and a distraction from what is really going on. Try to keep yourself safe but let the crazies pack the heat.
“All we have to fear is fear itself” and I’m not scared one bit. I’m pissed off at these so-called fellow Americans, they are no better than the terrorists they want killed. They both hate others who are not like them, and they want to terrorize their enemies into submission so they can have their way.
They have become what they despise and they love it.
freelancer
@mcd
people are using the #deathpanel hashtag seriously. Along with the #iamthemob, #gogalt and #tcot.
WTF?!
jcricket
@Anon: Dave Niewert has been mentioning this for a looooooong time. The SPLC and ADL also comment on the same trend. It’s called the “lone wolf” (or lone gunman, if you prefer). After finding their groups’ terrorist plans continually disrupted by law enforcement, the whackos have switched to a strategy of inciting and providing encouragement (and sometimes material support) to the nut jobs, but not themselves carrying out the attacks.
Think Eric Rudolph.
Beck, Malkin, Savage, Coulter, Limbaugh, RedState, etc. – they’re fomenting their 0.1% and who knows where it will end up.
Chuck Butcher
As far as I’m concerned the are playing with matches.
asiangrrlMN
No. They will not. I am sad; I am tired; I am more than a bit dispirited, but there you go. America will reap what the right is sowing, and they will laugh as the whole damn country burns to the ground. If they can’t have ‘their’ America, then, it seems, they would prefer no America at all.
JGabriel
Chuck Butcher: It’s a bit of a pet peeve, but you’ve got ‘losing’ spelled as ‘loosing’ in that post. You might want to fix it. It’s not a big deal by any means, but I’m pretty sure I’m not the only person who gets annoyed by that particular piece of internet tradition.
.
Flugelhorn
You folks are funny. I love the posts and comments full of pure ad hominem invective. I also love the fact that the vast majority of people posting here seem to feel that just because you oppose Obamacare that you must be a “wingnut”, completely ignoring the vast numbers of democrats who also dislike this plan. “Blue dog” anyone?
The truth of the matter is, if this plan was so great, Obama wouldn’t need anyone but the Dems. Democrats own the house and the Senate by large majorities. The plain fact is that this is not a good plan.
All of us… Democrat, Republican, Independent… We ALL want health reform. Just because we are against THIS plan does not mean we are against making our healthcare system better and reforming it.
In the interest of fairness, I want to include something else here:
Kenneth Gladney, 38, from St. Louis, said he was attacked as he handed out yellow flags with “Don’t tread on me” printed on them. He spoke to the Post-Dispatch from the emergency room at St. John’s Mercy Medical Center, where he said he was awaiting treatment for injuries to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face. Gladney, who is black, said one of his attackers, also a black man, used a racial slur against him before the attack.
The people who attacked him were members of SEIU. They were certainly not “Wingnuts”. They were certainly not conservative, republican “Wingnuts” anyway. Mr. Gladney does not even have an opinion on Obamacare. He was there because someone paid him an hourly wage to pass out material and he needed a job. Remember the economy, folks?
People need to own the idea that this is hardly a partisan issue with the screaming matches. WE also need to understand that if there is a fight/riot/screaming match at a town hall meeting, the default reaction shouldn’t be that “Oh, it must be those idiot ass republican wingnutters who can’t even tie their shoes.” You act as if the Obamacare supporters in the audiences just sat there dumbfounded and aghast while those who opposed slashed and burned everything around them. That is just disingenuous and self-serving.
Take an objective look and really open your eyes on this.
Mnemosyne
@Tom:
I think this is a good spot to bring up the always-insightful Fred Clark’s commentary about what he calls the cult of offendedness and the difference between anger and offendedness.
Chuck Butcher
@JGabriel:
Tanks, I musta dubble tripped teh “o” wit aught noing it
Chuck Butcher
@asiangrrlMN:
did you catch your “porn” over at my place?
The Raven
I think the bottom line here, is that the crazy keeps going until some crazy act of violence. And then, I hope, we stop, in horror.
Mnemosyne
@Flugelhorn:
So, wait, your example of an innocent citizen who was just there to express his opinion is a guy who was paid to stand there and hand out flags? And you see no disconnect here?
Tehanu
Fixed.