The guy who was passed over as VP for Sarah Palin last year doesn’t like Obama’s health plan.
I’m sure we all care.
by John Cole| 81 Comments
This post is in: Domestic Politics
The guy who was passed over as VP for Sarah Palin last year doesn’t like Obama’s health plan.
I’m sure we all care.
Comments are closed.
Turgidson
You mean the guy who thinks governing means making sure he doesn’t repair the bridges in his state? Yeah, I’ve really been looking forward to hearing what he thinks about health care.
El Cid
Pawlenty would rather also save the money from fixing and rebuilding old bridges, and they’re in just as good a condition as the U.S. health insurance / care system. What?
kommrade reproductive vigor
I was going to make a crack about bridges but I see it might cause the blog to collapse.
El Cid
@Turgidson: D’oh!
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
If people care so much about not falling into rivers in their cars, they will simply choose to levitate their cars over the river – no taxation-theft needed.
Just like with health care, they will simply choose not to get sick if they can’t afford it.
/libertarian
bago
I hear the fellow doesn’t care for bridges, also.
beltane
At least Pawlenty is not questioning Obama’s citizenship. I guess this is something we should all be grateful for.
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
I hear the fellow doesn’t care for bridges, also.
Yeah, he even hated The Big Lebowski.
bago
@beltane: Yeah, that would be a bridge too far.
bago
@Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist: That bridge really tied the thread together.
KG
@5: the first half is funny. the second, not so much. a lot of us libertarians dislike the current health care system, but we’re also skeptical that a government program (particularly if it is the only program in town) is the best way to go. i’m really not sure what the best answer is.
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
@bago: LOL
General Winfield Stuck
I’ll take odds Pawlenty is the next wingnut to accidentally trip and fall into a strange vagina.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist: Are you trying to be arch?
Joshua Norton
Like no one could have ever seen that one coming.
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
@KG: we’re also skeptical that a government program (particularly if it is the only program in town) is the best way to go.
Luckily, nobody’s proposing that the government program be the only one in town.
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
@kommrade reproductive vigor: Oh sure, now you’re piling on.
Max
PPP Minnesota Poll dated this month…
2012 Matchups
* Barack Obama – 51%
* Tim Pawlenty – 40%
That’s in his HOME STATE. How much of a tool do you have to be to lose your home state by 11 points?
P.S. In case you were wondering…
* Barack Obama – 56%
* Sarah Palin – 35%
pattonbt
@KG:
Co-op non-profits are a good way to go (or probably as good as any). I want profit motive out of healthcare, it has no place being there – at least at the primary level of prevention, emergency and maintenance. Profit is fine for cosmetic and advanced medicine.
Of course, nothing is perfect and how and where to draw lines will always be tough.
El Cid
As a non-propertarian libertarian, I’m more skeptical of the involvement of completely unaccountable massively powerful private industry than I am government programs, which have generally proven more efficient and less corrupt.
Tonal Crow
@General Winfield Stuck:
Looks like some Tennessee legislator managed to, uh, fall in first.
Joshua Norton
Speaking of Veep wanna-be’s, has LIE-berman chimed in on all this yet?
Anne Laurie
Remember when the most dangerous orifice to an ambitious Rethuglican was his own mouth?
I’m betting Pawlenty can bring back the glory days of the good old-fashioned “gaffe”, and I don’t mean in the saying-the-wrong-truths-out-loud Biden sense, either.
General Winfield Stuck
@Tonal Crow:
Them Jesus lovin’ boys just can’t keep it in their pants.
bago
@Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist: Well, he may be piling on, but that’s only so that he can support the truss in government we need.
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
@bago: Oh, OK then. I understand that takes a heavy toll.
General Winfield Stuck
These days, a GOP gaffe is sayin’ your on the Appalachian Trail when you ain’t. Lies and gaffes, who can tell the dif with these folks anymore .
pattonbt
Im just curious why these R “drown the gubmint in a bathtub” clowns still think this scaremongering works. I know it still sells to the red meat base, but the rest of the country really wants to get something out of what they pay in.
Change may be happening too slow for a lot of people out there, but the trends are pretty good and quite promising for progressives. Im just amazed that the R leadership is still quite content to whittle their base smaller and smaller and smaller. They really are just the party of no. All they do is bitch and moan about how bad things are / will be but they offer not one serious idea on how to fix things.
So do asshats like Pawlenty really think these missives are a winner? I mean, granted, this is the party that R machine of the last thirty years wanted and got – bobble heads who will spout what they are told without consciousness or thought. And that may work when times are good, but when times are bad and getting worse, its just awful.
Of course there are plenty of Ds out there like this, but this is all there is in the R camp. They really have a long way to go. Which sucks in a way for the Ds because they know, right now, they dont have to work too hard to keep winning. Which will mean they get lazier and fall into the same trap. Ds wont have to take risks and lead to keep their comfy chairs warm. Sucks for us.
So it goes.
Mike in NC
Gov. Mark Sanford (Asshole-SC) is reportedly taking his family on a vacation to Europe for a week to begin the “healing process”. No details yet on meeting up with prostitutes in Amsterdam, Berlin, or Rome.
Gex
@KG: Well, just screaming stop it to people who have ideas that have been tried elsewhere and seem to work is all you libertarians have, apparently. I mean, reread your post. You admit what we have doesn’t work, and you have no idea what will improve it, yet it is critcal for you to object to what is being proposed because of your ideology. If libertarians want to stop being mocked, perhaps this dynamic should be examined.
gwangung
Hell, yeah.
I mean, I really do have a lot of sympathy for libertarian ideas; trying to manage chaotic systems can be asking for trouble.
But doubting government involvement in health care, when every other country, from France to England to Taiwan, does it and does it better than the US???? That’s just denying reality, and seems pretty dumb to me. Even stupid.
Tonal Crow
@General Winfield Stuck:
They’re lettin’ the Jesus-love outta ther pants? Why them var-mints! Purty soon they’re gonna be promotin’ it in the skools!
KG
@19: So much of the focus has been on the insurance side, I’m not sure much attention has been paid to the service side.
Most hospitals are either private non-profits (usually religious, but not always) or public, correct? Kaiser might be the one exception that I can think of off the top of my head. The question is what do you do about doctors in private practice? Doctors accrue a lot of debt to reach their position, and they do have businesses to run and employees to pay. (Yes, I know that just because they are “non-profit” doesn’t mean that they don’t make money) Of course, in the old days, before insurance companies and bullshit, they found a way to do this.
Malpractice insurance is also a problem for doctors, when it comes to costs. As is the fear of facing malpractice claims. And I say this as a lawyer who is generally not big on “tort reform.”
Ultimately, I think the underlying problem is the insurance system that is currently in place. And really, that’s where the profit motive is, I think.
So, three problems, as I see it: how do we deal with insurance companies (who I believe are ultimately the culprits in this mess)? how do we insure that actual practicing doctors are compensated for their services, accordingly? how do we keep costs reasonable in this process?
freelancer
OT
Okay…
Haven’t watched Sportscenter in a LOOOONNNGGG time.
When did sports journalism morph into a language that has more weird nonsense codewords than Wingnut-ese?
Also, Roethlisberger’s endorsement deal for DICK’S sporting goods isn’t helping his image today.
Tonal Crow
@Mike in NC:
Damn! He was OK in the
BircherGOP primaries, then he has to go and do something brain-dead like that.KG
@30: I’m not yelling at anyone to stop it. I’m skeptical. That doesn’t mean I’m not open to the idea. I’m just trying to think through the consequences, intended and otherwise. If, at the end of the day, a government run health care system is the best way to promote and expand liberty, I’m all for it. I’m just not convinced yet.
I tend to preach prudence, patience, and reason. Because I generally think it’s a bad idea (especially for government) to do something for the sake of doing something.
Lesley
Off topic petz alert. These are a must see.
J. Michael Neal
Hey, when Christ is your wingman, you tend to score every single time.
asiangrrlMN
Fucking hate Ratface Pawlenty. Fucking “Not lose the Twins and the Vikings on my watch.” Fucking pushes the state to raise taxes in Hennepin County to pay welfare for fucking Carl (yes, he’s dead) Pohlad’s outdoor stadium. The Hennepin County Tax Payers’ Stadium. I’m so fucking pissed that this is never even brought up when Ratface runs around bleating about not having raised taxes on his watch and that we have to be so fucking fiscally responsible.
I don’t think he’ll hike the Appalachian Trail only because he’s so fucking boring. Then again, Sanford isn’t a ball of fire, either. And, Ratface HAS been doing a tour around the country talking up the GOP.
Fuck him.
Calouste
@KG:
You libertardians might find an answer if you grow up and look what works for adults in the rest of the world instead of continuing to wank off to sloppy “philosophies” from crappy novels.
gwangung
The evidence so far is that a non-government run health system is the worst way to promote health. And if you’re forcing people to choose between health and freedom, you’re probably doing it wrong.
Or, to put it another way, on the world economic stage, the US is falling behind other countries in many industries; one of the key reasons is that the companies in other countries are not handicapped by having to provide health care. The US companies jetted out ahead, but the slow and steady industries of other companies have caught up to them and are now threatening to pass them,
J. Michael Neal
Hey, now, Timmy didn’t raise our taxes. He got someone else to do that.
I agree that he’s too boring to have an affair. Coleman, sure. He was obviously a sleaze well before he became a Republican. Pawlenty’s idea of a scandal is removing the mattress tags.
r€nato
So when Mrs. Sanford passes through security at the airport, do they ask her to put his balls in the bin and they go through the x-ray machine, or can she just carry them in her pocket?
kid bitzer
what’s it matter? they’re not brass, that’s for sure.
KG
@40: wow, resulting to name calling already? such confidence you have in your policy preferences.
and for the record: i’ve not read a single page of Rand, if that’s what you’re referring to.
r€nato
KG, the data’s in and it’s been in for decades: national health care works. The private health care model in the US is an utter failure. No industrialized nation pays more and yet we rank 37th.
Do you really think this describes a health care paradigm that works?
KG
Not what I’m doing. The goal is to expand liberty as much as possible (while avoiding decent into license). If, as I said, a government program is the best way to expand liberty, then I’ll go along.
cbear
@J. Michael Neal: I disagree. That Pawlenty fellow has the look of the pure gooper about him, and your purebred goopers ALWAYS have some weird psycho-sexual shit going on.
He might look boring, but that don’t mean he ain’t into boning baby screech owls or some such crazyass shit.
gex
@KG: I know. Why don’t we mull it over for another 15 years and see if any better ideas come up that don’t include government involvement.
Concern troll is very, very concerned indeed.
Jean
Mark Sanford, Ensign, and now Stanley are very busy fighting blackmail charges, or apologizing to the family values voters for the privileges of nobility, or finding donors for payoffs (luckily, their parents can help). They don’t have time to worry about the problems of little people. Besides, Jesus saves. New Jersey officials, what, 44 of them?, have found another way to profit from healthcare–traffic in body parts. Anyone need a kidney? Then there are the riotously funny emails Republican NEUROSURGEON sends around of Obama as a witch doctor. Recess in August? What have these crackpots been doing for the past 6 months, but having recess? At least they’re preserving, as Michael Steele says, the sanctity of the relationship between insurance companies and patients.
Speaking of which, I know someone with a PPO, Anthem, who was denied coverage of a double mastectomy because she was diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer. Rationing healthcare example in our current system. Only after months of chemo that reduced the size of the tumor was she permitted coverage for the surgery, surgery her doctors had been willing to perform earlier.
asiangrrlMN
@gex: Perfect. Your remarks are right on. Countdown had a great piece about the whole ‘we need to go slow’ bullshit the GOP has been spouting.
@J. Michael Neal: Your comment at 38 is really funny. You make a good point. Ratface gets other people to do his dirty work. Duly noted.
@cbear: He is a pure gooper, and some women think he’s good-looking, so you may be right. The fact that he physically repulses me is irrelevant in this matter.
gwangung
Really? You keep on saying that you want a HEALTH program that is the best way to expand liberty. Shouldn’t you try to make a HEALTH system that works on HEALTH first?
Again, libertarianism is SUPPOSED to be more empirical in nature. Seems to be working everywhere else in the world. Why are you ignoring what’s working elsewhere?
J. Michael Neal
Edit: Removed something better handled privately.
OriGuy
Meanwhile, Bobby Jindal is taking that stimulus money he didn’t want and turning it into giant checks with his name on the bottom.
KG
When did I say anything about waiting around another 15 years? The time has come for health care reform. But do you really want to rush something through just for the sake of getting something – anything – done? Or do you want something that will actually benefit people and cure the problem? This really isn’t much different than the PATRIOT ACT or TARP – something had to be done, and we got shat on, but something got done. Typically when things get rushed, you get a shit product. All I’ve been saying today is to realize that you’ve got time – 41 months in the first term for Obama, another 17 months for the current Congress (and the next Congress isn’t going to see a huge increase in Republicans). 12 months is not 12 years, a little bit of patience is all I’m talking about. If you really believe your program is the best way forward, then you should be able to sell it to the public in the next few months.
freelancer
@J. Michael Neal
Answered you about Hurt Locker in prev thread.
Everyone who screams about taxes and gubmint oppression, and cries about Obama telling businesses how to operate, aka “When did it become criminal to make a profit?” and “What about the shareholders? These people have a responsibility to their shareholders?”. All these people need to srsly sack up and do their corporate status-quo apologetics dance to this story:
http://www.ajc.com/business/delta-adds-96809.html
Earl
@General Winfield Stuck: It’s a Minnesotan’s dream, dammit…
J. Michael Neal
@freelancer: And I responded. Got things to talk about there.
Gex
@KG: Ok, hotshot. Let’s try your idea now. Co-ops? Aren’t those just a do-over of HMOs? Will they be big enough to adequately risk pool? How will they control cost? By excluding people who use services?
What is it you want? You said you have no ideas to improve the situation. Plenty of evidence shows government programs can provide better outcomes at lower costs than our current system. You don’t want to rush into the ideas being proposed, but you don’t want to wait to address the issue.
Do you think you are adding anything of value, at all, to the discussion? Yes, it sucks when governments do things inefficiently. But that’s no reason to prefer letting people die, breaking our budget, and killing businesses with the expense in the name of even greater, just not governmental, inefficiencies.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@KG: It is not a government run health care system you fucking idiot. Doctors are not going to become government employees. This is about the government expanding the insurance option to cover the uninsured.
Argghh.
EDIT – saw a follow up comment from you where you acknowledge the insurance angle. Had a argument with some co-workers today about “socialized” medicine, so my apologies.
Debbie(aussie)
The rest of the developed world has already worked out how to have ‘freedom’ and health care too, surprisingly. Why oh why is the US still arguing over stuff the rest of us have already figured out.( of course to better results tho not perfect)
C Nelson Reilly
This explains it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvUU5x1u3gs
Nevermind. Link doesn’t work
malraux
A big difference is that the big ideas in play wrt health care/insurance have been around for a long time. Its not like we are waiting on the results of a particular study to make a choice. Waiting 12 months won’t improve the knowledge level of those who have been paying attention and are primarily responsible for the wonk level of the policy. Sure, you might become more knowledgeable, but you aren’t going to have a meaningful input into the policy.
With tarp and patriot act, the point of passing them fast was to avoid scrutiny. There really isn’t evidence that health system reform bills want to avoid scrutiny.
On the flip side, waiting 12 months would be bad for passing a meaningful bill. It gives powerful interests longer to put in bad elements, gives “moderates” more reasons to hold out for something worse compromises, muddies the water of the debate. In addition, 12 months from now is the start of an election season. Controversial legislation isn’t going to be as easy to pass then.
In addition, there is some evidence that big legislation that reforms the health care system is something that can only be tried every 15 -20 years or so. If it stalls out now, it won’t be brought up again for a very long time. At which point, more people will have gotten ill and died, medical costs will have gone up, etc. Hell, basic information like comparative effectiveness review won’t be implemented. Those are the costs of waiting.
Look, if your objection is that you are on page 500 of the 1000 page legislation and you want to finish reading it for an opinion, fine. If you just want to kvetch online that you don’t have enough info, then you need to do your homework first.
Jesse Ewiak
Democrats have been arguing about health care about 67 freakin’ years. We know what we’re doing and every argument about it for the most part. I mean, it’s sad conservatives and libertarians haven’t been paying attention but we’re used to that. But this, “slow it down” bullshit is just that – bullshit.
But, to the “expanding freedom” talking point, look at it this way. Guy A has a great idea for Product B. But, he can’t leave his job at GiantCompany because his health care is through them and he has three kids. As a result, we lose out on the great idea and he has less freedom than if everyone was simply covered by the government.
bago
KG: As someone who understands the tragedy of the commons, surely you understand how perverse incentives can screw up an entire system and ruin everything.
The first is for-profit insurance companies that can terminate their contract at will. They have every incentive to amortize the profit and terminate to avoid expense.
This would not be incredibly onerous if it weren’t for the second bit that poisons the competition angle of a free market. Namely using pre-existing conditions to take away the freedom for you to choose an insurance provider.
The public option gives you the freedom to choose an insurance provider that cannot discriminate or drop you entirely. In other words it adds an honest competitor to the market who cannot break contracts.
If insurance companies actually ARE delivering innovation and efficiency, they should welcome the competition from a slow and bloated governmental competitor.
NAVDOC3rdMAR
The only reason the U.S. doesn’t have Single-Payer Health Care is… Link Call Congress and the White House and demand,
SINGLE-PAYER HEALTH CARE FOR ALL NOW!
SEMPER FI!
Calouste
@KG:
Well, I am not the one espousing emotional immaturity as a political philosopy.
And if you call yourself a libertarian, you’re just as stuck with Rand as part of your movement as a communist is with Marx. Except that Marx of course had some observations about reality in his works.
Mayur
C’mon, why not give the guy a break? Not every single self-professed libertarian is a Randroid.
KG: What exactly are your concerns with the public option (or with single-payer, which I’d guess is more palatable to many commenters here, for that matter)? More to the point, what’s your preferred alternative?
See, I happen to agree that the PATRIOT Act and TARP legislation were poorly cobbled-together and hastily rammed through. Health insurance reform, OTOH, has been argued over and beaten to death on all sides for 60 years. The major issue is that the Overton window has been pushed so far to the right that the so-called “left-leaning” or “socialist” arguments are really just calls for some public-policy constraints on a whacked-out oligopoly that delivers insane economic rents to its members.
The public option is one (relatively feeble) mechanism for trying to curb the power of a small group of companies that enjoy ridiculous market share and employ predatory practices on a customer base that has no real ability to negotiate terms or prices or to switch to other competitors. This is the heart of the problem.
KG
Interesting points, all. I appreciate you putting up with me on this. Ultimately, I can go along with this as long as we’re talking about an optional program that is going to be subject to the same sorts of regulations that the private sector is. I’m absolutely not a fan of insurance companies (part of me wants to see insurance outlawed as a ponzy scheme) so my gut tells me that if they are opposed, it is probably a good thing.
bago
@KG: The dude’s name was Ponzi.
geg6
KG: First, what everyone else has said regarding the fact that the rest of the developed world has done universal health care for decades. Also what they said about Dems having worked on this issue for over 60 years and one Dem in particular has worked on and staked his entire Senate career on this matter. Perhaps you’ve heard of Senator Kennedy? And lastly, fuck waiting and studying the matter EVEN MORE. I just had a friend who was forced to choose between his very life and the welfare of his family because of a health insurance company. He chose his family. He’s dead. If this happened to you, a relative, or one of your friends, I’m thinking you might have a slightly more urgent view of this matter. Ain’t no fucking liberty in losing your life to keep your family solvent because an insurance company gives you only those two choices. Fuck waiting and fuck anyone who would rather see people DIE than do something. Fuck that. Gawd, this kind of shit pisses me off.
ironranger
Pawlenty is a nasty creep. I’ve watched his pressers when he’s announced state funding cuts to education and health care to Minnesotans who have no where else to turn. He suddenly gets animated, has a smirky smile on his face & truly looks like he is enjoying himself. He’s sick. A modern day R minus the affairs.
I remember one Pawlenty gaffe. A few years back he took a trip to the Middle East & there was a photo of him wearing a Spam t-shirt. Spam, the mystery pork product, is produced in MN. I doubt many people noticed or cared but I thought that was a dumb thing to do while in the Muslim area of the world.
DZ
@KG:
In my view, there is nothing wrong with being skeptical. OTOH, the system cannot be fixed if private insurance companies are allowed to underwrite anything. The very concept of insurance for health care is fundamentally flawed, what we need is health care financing not insurance. Within the health care financing construct, profit, marketing expense, corporate type executive compensation, endlessly duplicative IT and billing systems, etc. have no place in financing. This is not risk management, it is about financing health care for all legal residents. Single payer is the least costly and most efficient method of financing.
OTOH, I prefer the delivery system to be private. I don’t want physicians to be employees of the government, like England. We have a mix of public, private non-prof and private for prof hospitals, and they should all be welcome in the mix. A single payer system would also reduce costs significantly for the delivery system, because there would be only one payer – not 85 insurers to bill.
My $0.02
drillfork
@Max:
That even 35 percent of the people in my state would support Palin just makes me weep inside…
slippytoad
@KG
Hey, sorry that government-funded healthcare makes you uncomfortable. However, private healthcare doesn’t work and you’ve admitted you’ve got no other ideas. You can always go live in some third-world hellhole where they don’t have social anything.
malraux
@KG: For fucks sake, no one wants the british system. The idea that rich people cannot buy their way out is so anathema to the American system that such a plan would never be proposed, much less pass. But look at the largest model in the US for what government run insurance might look like, it’s called medicare. It is very popular by those who use it. You can use your own insurance or pay out of pocket without any problem. I don’t know of any evidence that medicare recipients have worse problems finding a doctor relative to those of us in hmos or regular insurance. Unless you feel that medicare removes “liberty” rather than increases it, you shouldn’t have a problem with any sort of public option.
gex
@KG: Just keep in mind that by having a government program that is option, rather than single payer, what we will get is the insurance companies who only want to insure low risk – high profit people while giving high risk – low profit people prices that will drive them to the government option. It will just be a continuation of what they do now, only now they drive the high risk people out of the covered group altogether.
I look forward to when the costs for the high risk pool shirked onto the government by your precious free market providers gets roundly criticized by the “Oh noes! Gubmint!!!!” crowd like you. That’s going to be all in good fun.
Gus
Max, I believe that’s 35% of Republicans, which is much less disturbing. Diehard Minnesota Republicans are a crazy lot.
kay
I’ve recovered from yesterday’s despair on health care reform, because I am easily distracted.
Anyway, I suspect that wingnuts and allied health industry lobbyists ordered the troops to make millions of phone calls to Congress opposing any reform.
So, I think the response to that should be millions of phone calls urging reform.
I’m going to approach it this way: I’m going to say that I’m disappointed that Congress is going on vacation without making any progress on reform. I’m going to call them lazy and useless and bought and paid for, but in a nice way.
I have a liberal Senator, a moderate Senator, and a wingnut House member.
I think this has to be simple enough for even a member of Congress to understand, and the wingnut message is simple: “block reform”. The opposing message should be equally simple: “begin reform”.
KG
@76: to clarify my point @69, if it is the government working as a market participant in this context, I don’t have much of a problem with it.
@70: oops.
@77: I’ve said, repeatedly, that I think the underlying problem is the insurance companies. My belief is based on the fact that they act to distort the market by stepping between the two rightful parties to the contract – the patient and the care provider. That is, fundamentally, the flaw with medical insurance. This is one of the reasons that I like the idea of health savings accounts (though I thoroughly dislike the shape they’ve taken), it bypasses the insurance company. I’ll also add, that along with the banks and automakers, if I was in charge, insurance companies would be in line for the Standard Oil treatment.
Calouste
@malraux:
Except, you know, people CAN buy their way out of the British system. There is private health insurance in the UK besides the NHS (Bupa is the largest one, if you want to do some research), and there are private clinics and hospitals.