James Fallows writes of Bob Graham’s assertions about (not) being briefed in the manner the CIA suggested:
It’s easy! If the CIA says one thing and former Sen. Graham says another, then the CIA is lying. Or, “in error,” if you prefer.
JMM points out that Pelosi continues to support a Truth Commission, which would indicate that she believes she will be vindicated by a full investigation.
At this point, it’s worth considering what the claims about her being briefed mean and where this is all going. My view is that the story that Pelosi was briefed on waterboarding is subterfuge, like the quilts and blankets in “Pulp Fiction“. It’s not about nailing Pelosi, it’s about having a sufficiently truthy line of bullshit for David Brooks et al. to repeat (Brooks spoke about torture on the Times yesterday, blasting Pelosi and everyone who wants investigations — these are his first comments on torture, to my knowledge). This probably won’t be fully investigated and, even if it is, the findings will probably be equivocal enough that Republicans can continue to scream “Pelosi knew about it” just as the nutosphere likely continues to trash Scott Beauchamp.
To me, though, the big take away here is that the right is losing the torture debate. It started with “Dick Cheney was just keeping us safe from teh terrorists, don’t you libtards watch ’24’?”. Then it became “mistakes were made, but it was a difficult time.” And now it’s “okay, maybe the whole thing was fucked up, but Pelosi knew about it so it’s her fault.” It’s just another variation on “Clinton did it too” and it’s essentially a defensive posture.
Update. Good Lord, Halperin is going after Pelosi hard on this
sgwhiteinfla
Here is David Shuster interviewing Bob Graham
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPG6RDo3DVg
cleek
we don’t torture but if we did that’s ok because it works and we need to keep doing it but we didn’t because torture is illegal and what we did wasn’t torture because people like Yoo said it wasn’t and even if it was these people deserved it because they were terrorists because people like Yoo said they were and even if none of that is true Pelosi knew and therefore the GOP wins because Pelosi is a liar and the Democrats hate America and the terrorists will hate America even more if they learn that we did the things they know we did and why do you want to give those people any reason to hate us even more, no i don’t care if you said that was a reason to not invade Iraq in the first place.
extended warranty? how could i lose?
TenguPhule
Unfortunately for the GOP, their supplier just went tits up and left them out at sea with chum in the water.
If Pelosi needs to be used as bait to get the feeding frenzy started, so be it.
Long as they all get eaten.
Dennis-SGMM
If Clinton had killed bin Laden when he had the chance then 9/11 would never have happened and no one would have been tortured and we wouldn’t have a war of choice in Iraq and the DJIA would be at 42,000 and we’d all be rich.
Max
I think what continues to give Senator Graham gravitas, besides his OCD record keeping is the fact that the CIA tried to say it had 4 meetings with him about this and they only had 2. He showed them the proof and the CIA backtracked on their claims.
** Atanarjuat **
I understand why the Wingnut Flying Monkey Brigade is slamming Nancy Pelosi with the whole “liar” angle, as Pelosi is one third of the unholy leftist tryptich that also includes Harry Reid and Barack Obama.
What I don’t understand is just what consersatives think the end game is here. Trying to shame Pelosi about knowing or not knowing about who was getting tortured by the CIA is simply keeping the topic of torture itself at the very forefront. True, this strategy might cripple Pelosi’s leadership, or even have her ousted as Speaker (or worse, tossed out at next election), but if this comes to pass a whole lot of people are going down with her, and they’re not all Democrats — not by a long shot.
Talk about planning for a Pyrrhic victory.
-A
DanSmoot'sGhost
Mmmm, you know me, I like data and facts. I don’t have any that supports that conclusion, but that point is not really the point, so to speak, so I won’t argue it.
The point here, the way I see it, is that the right is basically doing a hostage negotiation thing. They are saying, the left can have its dings on the torture story, but we are going to get our dings in too. And in this case, they have solid dings, because they know that they are dealing with rank hypocrisy on the left. They know that Americans in general shrugged and looked away from this shit several years ago, and even reelected the people who used lies and torture to prop up their lies about a war, and they know that almost everyone who is beating his chest about it now is guilty of either being complicit, or giving tacit approval, then. And Pelosi is their poster girl, and they are going to ride this tit-for-tat story all the way to town. And there is nothing our side can do about it, because the whole idea that we are going to demonize the previous government for doing exactly what it was elected to do is a dog that won’t, ultimately, hunt. It’s a clique thing, a creature of a lefty echo chamber of phony outrage and refusal to take responsibility for ones’ own actions.
Unless I am reading Pelosi wrong, she is being a weasel. If torture really is the dearly held values issue that the left says it is (and it’s not, so I am just saying that for the sake of discussion), then she needs to step down from the speakership today and say, “I didn’t do everything that I could and should have done to prevent this at the time.”
But she won’t, and for that reason, the left is going to be rendered powerless on this hyped up issue. Oh sure, the left would gladly throw her under the bus to get what they want here, but the problem is, there are too many other people in the same position she is. People who only started thinking how awful waterboarding was when it became politically safe to say so. People who ran for president in 2004 and knew all about this and hardly said a fricking word about it. If this was such a big principle, why wasn’t it THE CENTRAL TOPIC of the 2004 campaign? Because nobody wanted to talk about it back then. It was mostly public knowledge. We knew they had lied about the war and cooked the intel.
Too little, too late.
DonkeyKong
Is it me, or has Cheney become the Col. Kutz of the republican party.
Cheney-[intercepted phone message] I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That’s my dream. That’s my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight… razor… and surviving.
Balconesfault
Isn’t there a way to blame this on Barney Frank?
We already know he singlehandedly brought down the economy.
And he talks funny.
jake 4 that 1
Funny how the CIA went from red headed step-child to the fair haired boy in GOPerville.
And yes, your title is awesome.
jenniebee
Every time Pelosi says “they didn’t tell me they were torturing people” it’s a DC10 will save for every wingnut not to scream “yes they did inform you that they were secret government tortuous torturing torturers and it was all the most illegal thing that was ever done in the whole history of time!” You wouldn’t think that it’d be that hard to hold back and play it cool, but Cantor, Boehner and the RedState genii, you must remember, when confronted with this kind of temptation, have all the self-control of a dyspeptic, bipolar hyena.
Winston Smith
The dead-enders will keep up their rear-guard defense as long as there’s anything left to say with even the thinnest veneer of plausibility…unless, that is and for example, we find out that Cheney was torturing people just plain for the fun of it.
And even then KJL and that crowd will be like “Hey, who of us hasn’t done something we’re not particularly proud of?”
Montysano
Slowly but inexorably the noose is tightening on Cheney. Torture is one thing. Starting an ill-advised war is another. But torturing people to extract bogus confessions in order to justify the war? That rises to a whole new level, and that’s where we’re heading. More and more over the next few weeks we’ll be seeing former CIA operatives, Bush admin figures, etc, dropping a dime on Cheney. Lawrence Wilkerson rolled over on Cheney in a major way this week. More will follow.
jenniebee
@DanSmoot’sGhost:
My read is that she’s heavily restricted in what she can and can’t say by National Security rules. I seem to remember Bob Graham in 2003 telling anybody who would listen that he couldn’t tell you anything about what or how the evidence being offered to justify the attack on Iraq was bogus because it was all classified and he couldn’t legally reveal any of it, not even to other members of Congress, but he was telling anybody who would listen that he’d seen it and it was trash.
Pelosi is acting like she’s hold something back because she is holding something back, because she’s required to by law.
DanSmoot'sGhost
I’ve made that same argument here in recent days, but after yesterday’s presser, I am not so sure. Either she is confused about her own logic here, or else she is being evasive. Or, she is just terrible at making her case.
If she was in fact constrained from doing anything about the EITs back then, then …. she needs to make that the crux of her case, and explain why she has danced around it so delicately up to now. I think she has now painted herself into a corner of her own making.
Little Dreamer
@Dennis-SGMM:
Damn you, Bill Clinton.
;)
The Cat Who Would Be Tunch
As I stated yesterday, the Republicans trying to incriminate Pelosi and the Dems was really just the equivalent to firing a warning shot. This is just maneuvering on the Republicans to get the Democrats to back off from any eventual commissions and investigations. It truly wouldn’t surprise me if some of the Congressional Democrats knew about waterboarding.
As Atanarjuat stated, the logic of pursuing this path to “win” is really puzzling.
Little Dreamer
@DanSmoot’sGhost:
She did, on Rachel Maddow’s show.
Face
But DougJ, what does the WaPo chat have to say about all this?
DougJ
I’ll give you a comprehensive update when I have it sorted out.
Little Dreamer
@DanSmoot’sGhost:
Democrats didn’t look the other way, only those in congress. We out here in the real world were shouting at the top of our lungs. I am sure that is what you meant, correct?
The right can get away with saying that Congressional Dems looked the other way, they cannot get away with saying that the party did.
Punchy
I want this work of beauty on a fucking bumper sticker, stat.
asiangrrlMN
I don’t particularly care what Pelosi did or didn’t know. I am inclined to believe that she was misled given that she’s pushing for a hearing on the matter. I also don’t particularly believe that the CIA feels any compulsion to be truthful, but that is admittedly my bias talking.
I think the GOP is panicking at this point. They are just trying to do whatever they can to make it all go away. They think that if they threaten Pelosi, the Clintons, Gore, and, hey, let’s throw Jimmy Carter into the mix, the Dems will back down. It’s actually what I think Cheney is doing as well since no rational explanation makes sense.
Cat Lady
I for one hope Harry Reid gets caught up in this and has to step down. If this all results in house-cleaning, then something good will come of this shameful affair. I’ll settle for prosecutions of Cheney and Rumsfeld, and shame and ruined reputations for everyone else involved.
I think that the promise to not prosecute the lower downs will yield a lot of benefits. Cheney was feared, but also hated. The avalanche is just getting underway.
LD50
What you’re forgetting is that GOPers are now hardwired to view winning the 24-hour news cycle as the only goal worth striving for. That this makes no sense as a longterm strategy doesn’t make the least difference.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Little Dreamer:
Yes but I think that was before yesterday’s press appearance. I didn’t see Maddow last night so if she has revised and extended her remarks on this since yesterday’s newser, then I’d to see that later material.
But if yesterday’s appearance is the latest, then she has made a mess of her situation as near as I can tell. She tried to make the distinction between being “briefed” and being “told” of something a key point, and then the matter of whether she was “told” before or after the fact of the EIT activity a subpordinate point. She just totally muddied the water. Neither of those two points has any bearing on the matter of her being bound to secrecy on the subject and what that means in actual practice. So now she is balancing three “yes, buts” on the head of a pin and trying to get out from under the questions.
LD50
Out of curiosity, if Pelosi goes down in flames, who replaces her? Anyone have any idea?
srv
@jenniebee:
There were wide-spread stories about detainee abuse and torture. I have linked to stories in 2002 in various threads here.
If Graham could say what he did, there was absolutely nothing preventing Pelosi (or any other Dem) from pointing to these stories and demanding an investigation without violating any oath. Y’all seem to buy the meme that anyone on the gang of 6 can’t do their job without self immolating and running downd the capital steps or something.
It’s a complete canard.
Tonal Crow
So let me get this straight: the GOPers are arguing that a murderer should get off scot-free, and a bystander should be prosecuted, because the bystander might have known that the murderer was going to murder, and (because the law prohibited it) she didn’t report it to the police. Yeah, that makes sense.
P.S. When will the Democrats learn how to argue their way out of a wet teabag?
anon
awesome rolling stones reference in the title.
Leelee for Obama
@DanSmoot’sGhost:
Perhaps you are unaware that anyone who had talked about these briefings would have benn arrested and charged with, oh what is that called, TREASON?
There is more here than meets any eyes but the basics are that Pelosi and Graham could not say anything in public-It’s against the Law!
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Little Dreamer:
Well, some of us who had no confidence in the war rationale from the get-go (in 2002) were barking, yes, but we were in a small and despised minority at the time.
The problem for someone like Pelosi is trying to come along later and say “Me too! I hate torture too!” when the facts are not clear on just what her position was when it counted. Nobody at her level was barking at these guys then, to my recollection.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Leelee for Obama:
Please see the first line of my post at #15. I am quite aware of it.
Punchy
Yes, but Wilkerson was a white guy working for The Negro, which makes him double-twice shifty and probably a Nazi communist to boot.
So shut up, that’s why.
Little Dreamer
@LD50:
Steny Hoyer?
asiangrrlMN
@Tonal Crow: When they visit lefty blogs and observe the way we fight amongst each other. I think they could pick up a few tips. Or, when they grow a pair. No, wait, then they will BE tea-bagged.
JenJen
Don’t know if anyone saw Morning Joe today, but they spent three looooooooong hours bashing Nancy Pelosi. They were practically giddy. Mark Halperin was more worked up than anyone. “ZOMG teh torture, it iz all teh Pelosi!!”
Next, I learned from Joe that the CIA is the Constitutionally-prescribed 4th Branch of Government, and that you simply do not mess with them. DO NOT. Later today, I’m going to call up my old high school government teacher and bitch him the hell out for never sharing this information with the class.
In the last hour, they brought in Lawrence O’Donnell (aka LauraW’s future ex-husband!), and allowed him about three minutes to make sense, and for the rest of the hour talked about how crazy he is, how he was a mere lowly staffer while Joe Scar was a real live congressman, while the producer read emails proclaiming him to be “Larry The Loony Liberal!” Much laughter ensued.
And that has been your Morning Joe update. I watch, so you don’t have to.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Punchy:
bzzt. Rhetoric snafu. Nazis and working for The Negro?
Head explodes. Please rewrite.
Little Dreamer
@DanSmoot’sGhost:
To my recollection, it was only those Dems “at her level” who were not barking mad. While I will admit I lived in a heavily Republican area, all of my interactions with Dems were of the barking mad sort, and that included my trips to the local Democratic meetings.
Btw, IMY
Shawn in ShowMe
She was sworn to secrecy. The only legal action she could have taken that had teeth would be to resign. But that still wouldn’t have prevented the torture from happening.
jnfr
Duelfer and Windrem on Rachel Maddow last night. I personally think these revelations about Cheney are explosive.
LD50
But… but… Jonah Goldberg said the Nazi Party were all liberals!
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Shawn in ShowMe:
Yes, so the bottom line on her position could, and should in my opinion, be: I couldn’t take action against this. I was constrained by the classified nature of the material and I acted according to the law as I was required to do.
And then, all due respect to her, she needs to shut up. Because everything else she has said has just opened the door to more questions and more weaselicious weaseling on both sides of the moat.
Little Dreamer
@asiangrrlMN:
Speaking of which, I just wanted you to know that I am not mad at you (regarding that other thread), I just see things differently.
Shawn in ShowMe
Well, the torture memos have been released. She’s free to speak now.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Little Dreamer:
IMY2
Dungheap
@Shawn in ShowMe:
Well, depending on the level of her outrage, Pelosi could have divulged classified information and sought protection from the Speech and Debate clause but that’s quite a bit to ask let alone expect.
The options were not to resign or do nothing.
Laura W
@JenJen: Laura and Lawrence. Nice ring, eh?
I was grimacing too hard to hear during that brief moment that I flipped over there but I think I heard Blow say my intended ex was as crazy as Goldwater? He barely let O’D get “Good Morning, Asshole” out of his gorgeous lips before the ridicule began. You know he is totally intimidated by him. I look forward to the day when O’D has his own show and can finally stop biting his tongue off when on Blow’s so-called “show”.
Much like he beats Uncle Pat up one side and down the other now. I anticipate the same smack down for Blow from my soon-to-be-ex-SO. (Thank you for watching, JenJen. I couldn’t cowgirl up this morning.)
JenJen
@Dennis-SGMM: You forgot Poland, but, I know, right? :-)
@Laura W: Actually, Sexy Lawrence (and he really is super-sexy) explained to Joe Scar that one of his heroes, Barry Goldwater, also insisted that the CIA lied to him. Joe responded that Goldwater was a batshit crazy old coot who hated Reagan, and besides, Lawrence is a commie, and besides, I never really liked Goldwater because everyone knows I’m really a Burkean.
4tehlulz
Shorter GOP strategy: Wait for terrorist attack and cry “I told you so!”
DanSmoot'sGhost
This is what happens when a politican tries to play both sides of the street. Pelosi may not be doing that, but she is doing a heckuva good imitation of somebody who is.
jcricket
This is why Democrats need to stick to their guns. The right only has enough ammunition to “win” the occasional 24-hour news cycle. What I mean is, when they’re willing to be completely over-the-top and lie, they will win that initial salvo.
But if Democrats act more “Obama-like” (for lack of a better term), we win the eventual “war”, b/c Republicans have “shot their wad” (I’m going to use as many scare quotes as I can in this reply) and are ultimately full of crap on nearly every issue.
Little Dreamer
@DanSmoot’sGhost:
She did say that on Rachel Maddow, but I think she’s overreacting and I really don’t think she is a great “speaker” (not as in what her job is, but her communication style) and I think she’s in over her head on this. She should have left it with what she said on Rachel Maddow and just repeated that over and over.
DougJ
Not to the extent that they should have, I agree.
But I still think it’s a stretch to equate her actions with the Bush admin’s or them to use her having been briefed as an excuse.
Dork
I dont think most of youse are properly remembering 2002/early 2003. Pelosi could have pulled out video of suspects being disemboweled, photos of redition sites with suspects strung up on wire and electrical cords attached to their nads, and had Cheney and Bush’s literal fingerprints on all of it, and the country wasn’t going to pay attention.
The U.S. in 2002 simply didn’t give a shit if Brown People were tortured/executed. Pelosi knew this, and realized her squealing would have in completely futile.
Napoleon
Every day we talk about torture it is a win for the Democrats. Investigating and prosecuting those that enabled torture is a win for the Democrats. I don’t think this is even a close call.
Little Dreamer
@Dork:
Where I was spending my time, we were very much interested. The right wingers had the microphone though and it was harder to get our point across. The sea of red, white and blue flags on every street of this nation was still fresh in everyone’s mind. We were propagandized (not that we all bought it, but many did).
The Grand Panjandrum
In that same presser Pelosi asked for a Truth Commission and I suspect that her intention yesterday was to poke at this festering wound to make that happen. Let every last government official, elected or not, rise or fall with what they knew and when they knew it.
** Atanarjuat **
@Cat Lady:
Cat Lady wins the thread (and a free, one-year subscription to Balloon Juice, if such a thing existed).
Republicans and their lapdog stenographers in the media are trying to portray torture as a liberal partisan issue, when in fact it’s an American issue that transcends political interests. I, for one, would not mind a house-cleaning either, since the torture apologists bloviating on TV would find themselves painted into a corner along with those who actually ordered and approved the torture sessions in question.
-A
gwangung
Yeah. Eyes on the prize. What’s the important goal here?
If it leaves Pelosi bruised, so be it (she sure as hell shouldn’t be punished as severely as the wankers who initiated and implemented the torture).
Laura W
@JenJen: Well, I suppose I lost the right to mock Mika publicly after mocking those who mocked Candy, so…I’ll just say that the other incentive for me to walk on by was Mika sitting sideways, leaning forward, wiggling around in her tight red top smiling that gauzy smile of hers that always makes me long for college days when my Grama used to give me her valium so I could “relax”.
Edit: Obligatory: “One of your better titles yet DougJ” stroke.
srv
Since most of the Dems here are still playing the “she was helpless” card about Nancy, and the entire Democratic Congress played “no one could have foreseen – except that it was in the Guardian and all over the foreign press way before Abu Grahib”, I’ll make a prediction here:
We are still torturing people. And good Gen. McCrystal’s boys will be doing a whole lot of if in the next few years. They may outsource it to Tajiks and Pakistanis, but it will happen.
And when it comes out in a few years, the Dem establishment will do the same dance they are doing here.
gwangung
Sub out Americans for Democrats, and I stand behind this.
Torture ain’t no partisan issue. If Pelosi and a couple other Dems get damaged, but we get the torturers jailed, I’ll take that, every day of the week.
DougJ
But I’m bad guy for saying Candy Crowley isn’t especially telegenic.
Shawn in ShowMe
Headline: Democrat demands investigation of Administration based on classified info from intelligence briefings. Other than being branded by every MSM outlet in the country as “shrill” and “emboldening the enemy” what exactly was that going to accomplish?
Little Dreamer
@gwangung:
The goal is to make sure we never do that again, and I’m not concerned if those who bought into it have to be sacrificed. The reputation of the country is much more important than whether anyone (including congressional Dems) keeps their farking jobs.
Davis X. Machina
Bob Graham’s meticulous and compulsive diary-keeping was a matter of some discussion during the early part of 2003, when he was at least a potential Pres/VP candidate. He may be too careful to have committed anything re torture and briefings to paper, but I’d love to see his recollections challenged in front of a committee. I expect the challenger, whether some Pub or some spook, to have their head handed to them
omen
i’m guessing halperin has mommy issues. i caught his earlier guest appearance. i’ve never seen him this animated about a topic before.
asiangrrlMN
@Little Dreamer: Yeah, I was mad at first. As you can probably tell, I’m pretty emotion-driven. Then, I stepped back and realized that it’s a difference of opinion and not personal. In addition, you helped me reshape and hone what I actually think. So, it’s all good.
4tehlulz
@Davis X. Machina: OT, but I think we better make sure Bob Graham never gets a Twitter account. Just sayin’.
DanSmoot'sGhost
Well, that stretch is a creature of the blogomediaramarosannadannaspehre, I don’t hear any pols making that claim, and I don’t even hear any pundits making it. I hear pundits pimping it as a phony churn billboard to gin up ears and eyeballs for their crap shows, but I don’t think anyone is taking it seriously.
Where I do see that theme starting to get some traction is in the GWOT subjects … Obama = Bush? Because he is treading very carefully, as Bush did, around the policy issues that pertain to prisoners at Gitmo, photos of abuse, and that sort of thing. Personally I think Obama is playing this stuff exactly right, and with great political shrewdness, but that’s just me.
Laura W
@DougJ:
Uh…yeah!
Don’t tell me you expect consistency, integrity and fairness from your commenters?
Brings to mind KO’s rant last night. Wonder how much traffic he drove to Wonkette? Maybe we can do something here to piss him off and get mentioned in one of his comments? Bet the advertisers would like that.
(and it wasn’t necessarily your quip. It was the “ugly” pile on that ensued. Besides, I’ve been ranting about Mika here for almost a year. There’s a precedent.)
Shawn in ShowMe
With Gonzales at Justice and half the Supreme Court in the White House’s pocket? If I was in Pelosi’s shoes, I’d pass.
DougJ
That’s just the kind of opinion I’d expect from someone in the blogomediaramarosannadannaspehre.
Napoleon
@gwangung:
I absolutely agree. I think on the merits it is the right thing to do for the country, and even though it should not figure into the discussion for any that think it will somehow hurt the Democrats I think it is exactly the opposite. It would be a political goldmine for the Dems.
JenJen
@Laura W: Since I was one of those who gleefully mocked Candy Crowley’s appearance (sorry, ok?!), I’ll pick on Mika for you! No worries!
Indeed, that was one tight-ass top she was sportin’ this morning, and I am not fooled when she does the sideways-turn thing, either. It really isn’t her “Sexy Mommy Drinks Vodka” image that annoys me, though, it’s the fact that she is so utterly clueless. Earlier in the week, she was all “You know, I don’t like this Dick Cheney person, who was he anyway, the name does sound familiar but my intern was too busy fetching me Starbucks to write me a brief.” Then, she crumbled in the presence of Liz Cheney (who was really Dick Cheney in a hard-scrabble-chick-costume; his makeup wizards should really get an Emmy nom). Today, she couldn’t agree more that Pelosi is really who we should be going after here. Her inconsistencies from minute to minute drive me up a tree, and like Don Shula/Dave Shula, serves as further proof that genius really does skip a generation.
Hey, I almost forgot O’D’s best part! Unrelated to teh torture, but O’D decided to call Joe out on his conservative cred while Joe hawked his stupid book. “You’re all socialists, too. Name me one ‘conservative’ who ever introduced a bill to end Medicare, Social Security, or the Department of Education.” It really is amusing to watch Joe in the presence of O’D, because you’re right, Joe is intimidated by him. It reminds me of being at the dog park, when I bring my super-alpha Aussie and he runs up to other dogs, who immediately roll over on their backs, show their belly, and pee themselves.
Am I being too harsh?
@DougJ, top: Told ya Halperin was off the chain today. His faux anger on “Morning Joe” was unsettling.
Little Dreamer
@asiangrrlMN:
See, we can disagree and still get along. ;)
Righties could learn from us. ::laugh::
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Little Dreamer:
That’s because you are an intelligent and reasonable person. But the REPs have a different agenda. They just want to make sure at least one DEM loses a limb over this thing for every one of their tribe that loses a limb. In their crazy world, an eye for an eye is the same thing as good government.
That’s why we are not Republicans! We don’t believe in that shit.
jake 4 that 1
@LD50: I’m sure if the Repubs check the rules they will find Rush Limbaugh is the new SoP. Or Sarah Palin. Also.
DanSmoot'sGhost
Even a stopped blogomediaramarosannadannasphere is right twice a news cycle.
Heh.
DougJ
Only people in the blogomediaramarosannadannasphere talk about news cycles.
Little Dreamer
@DanSmoot’sGhost:
I didn’t expect you to say I’m reasonable, not after, ummm, Wednesday night. Check email.
omen
@srv:
you think bob graham is lying?
srv
@Shawn in ShowMe:
Uh, idiot, did you even read what I said? If I knew we were torturing people in Jan. 2003, and I didn’t need access to classified info to figure that out, why would Nancy?
You people, you don’t have morals, you have politics.
*just keep walking. It’s what you people do.
PK
Pelosi is willing to face a truth commission and her opponents are not. This shows she has bigger balls than all the God-fearing, gun slinging, gay hating big guy republicans out there.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@DougJ:
Well this will knock your socks off. I used to work for AP.
True story. I’ll deny ever saying it.
Also a long story and a long time ago.
SpotWeld
It seems to me, 5 – 6 years ago Pelosi was in a position to demand further information on the extend of American involvement in torture. The picture I am getting is that she (along with the majority of the Bush administration and a lot of Congress in general) had a good inkling of what was being done but decided to take the offical line and not push back.
Pelosi could have raised a huge stink, burned a lot of bridges (on both sides of the aisle) and probably stopped her political career cold, for the possible exposure of torture by American operatives.
Pelosi made noise,and is making noise, but most of all she seems to be playing politics.
It’s not really horrible (not like this whole “what about the ticking time bomb” crowd or the Beck-ian Mustard Militia), and it certainly isn’t commendable.
asiangrrlMN
@Laura W: I second Laura W here, DougJ. It wasn’t your comment. It was the rest that followed.
I am cautiously hopeful that the issue of torture will not be glossed over, no matter how much anyone wants it to be.
Little Dreamer
Perhaps because Nancy has a totally different reality that she lives with and she doesn’t see/hear things the way a regular person would? I understand life inside the beltway is quite different, but I’ve never lived it, so I don’t know.
I know that I knew the war was trumped up, and that a lot of nasty shit was going down that people inside the beltway didn’t want to talk about, I think it’s because life there is quite different than it is for us regular folks. I could be wrong, I don’t think I am.
Seebach
What I don’t understand is why people think the anti-torture left gives a flying fuck about Pelosi. If she has blood on her hands, take her to the Hague, as well. I don’t think they understand who they’re up against. We’re not playing for teams, but they are.
srv
@omen: Christ on a cruch. You people.
All the EVIDENCE and Congressperson should ever need in 2002:
My god, you people will just keep doing this Nancy and Graham on a pin head routine all day long and not think for a second.
priscianus jr
Pelosi has waited a long time for this. The Cheneyites are going down and she knows it. You heard it here first.
asiangrrlMN
@Little Dreamer: Shhhh! Let’s keep that our dirty little secret. Otherwise, they might actually get their shit together and be an effective oppositional party.
Oh, wait. I want them to be grown-up and effective. Damn. A moral dilemma.
Shawn in ShowMe
Yes, but I’m just a simple caveman.
Really? You had evidence that would passed muster in a court of law that the CIA was torturing people?
Little Dreamer
@asiangrrlMN:
Haha!
I want them to be grown-up and effective too. ;)
MikeJ
Any congressperson who thinks a newspaper interview is evidence of anything should be run out of town on a rail.
srv
@Shawn in ShowMe:
See link above quoting 10 active National Security officials in 2002.
WTF do you think Congress’ job is?
Not like any minority members of Congress are demanding investigations or anything lately. They’re just helpless. Bound by security oaths. Can’t possibly act on anything…
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Shawn in ShowMe:
Not sure about jan 2003, although at that point I was pretty sure we were looking at cooked, nonsensical intel. Didn’t know the background yet.
By March 2004, we all pretty much knew that it was all lies and that the potatoheads had done whatever they needed to do to cook up the intel. Somehow, even in that situation, we cruised through a presidential election cycle talking about swiftboats and DOMA and windsurfing.
It’s the latter fact that makes me really a hard sell on the new outragey fashion. Where was the outrage when it would have mattered?
omen
@srv:
that wasn’t my question.
so the veracity of the cia doesn’t matter to you?
srv
@MikeJ:
Gee, that would knock out My Lai, Pentagon Papers, Watergate, Iran Contra, FISA….
You people are so smart.
cleek
nobody is going down. nothing will happen. there will be no prosecutions, no charges, no Truth Committee.
all the current congressional leaders knew enough about what happened that they will look bad if the truth gets out. but, people don’t prosecute or ruin their own careers over something most people aren’t really excited about.
this goes nowhere.
Shawn in ShowMe
That’s my take on it as well. This is about payback for the shit sandwiches the Pubs served up when they were in charge.
asiangrrlMN
Wait, I am getting a little confused as to the argument.
Most of us will agree that torture occurred, yes? Most of us knew about this fairly early on, yes? We all agree that torture should not be used, right?
So, putting aside who knew and who didn’t know, can we also agree that a Truth Commission (as bipartisan as possible) that carefully sifts through all the evidence to piece together as best possible what actually happened would be a good thing?
Let’s set aside prosecution and the photos for a minute. Can we all at least agree to a Truth Commission? That is not snark, I am truly trying to see where the divergence of opinion is occurring. On the Democratic side, I mean. I think we need a little (a little, I said, not a lot) more unity and a little less “rip each other apart at the throats”.
P.S. Larry O’Donnell needs his own show now. Put him on after Rachel, and I will be a very happy grrl.
ET
Do I think the did say something to both Democrats or Republicans – yes. Do I think that what they said gave members any real sense of what was going on – no.
I’m sorry but I just don’t believe the CIA told “the whole truth and noting but the truth.” They likely never do when going to Congress and when they have Dick Cheney and Tenet, etc. looking over their shoulder they seem even less inclined to do so.
Jay in Oregon
Anyone who is using that talking point should be asked the following questions:
1) If Pelosi should be in trouble for knowing about the program, aren’t you admitting that it was torture and illegal?
2) If the program isn’t illegal, then why should Pelosi be in trouble for knowing about it?
3) If the program is illegal, why is knowing about the program worse than conceiving of and implementing the program?
srv
@omen: I don’t care what excuses gang members use to cover for each other. I’ve never considered the CIA, Nancy, or Bob to be reputable sources, so I can’t divide by zero here for you.
The least y’all should do is pick one:
1) Nancy wasn’t told the details
2) Nancy was lied to
3) Nancy was all tied up, and there are NO OTHER ALTERNATIVES BUT SELF IMMOLATION
4) Nancy can’t read the papers I did in 2002, 2003 or 2004
It’s really hard for me to help you prop her up if y’all keep moving the goalposts everywhere.
MikeJ
You’re assuming good faith here. It’s charming, really.
omen
@srv:
i wasn’t asking you to prop her up.
TenguPhule
I’ll give house odds that it does.
Bill Belichick
Where does it end? First Barry stabs us in the back in PouponGate. Now this? I need a drink.
JosieJ
@The Grand Panjandrum:
This. I have no problem with Pelosi or any other Democrat going down if they knew about the torture and looked the other way. But the only way we’ll know is if there are hearings to drag the whole sorry mess into the light of day, so I welcome Pelosi’s call for a Truth Commission. Let’s have it and let the chips fall where they may. Then we can stop making common cause with brutal strong-man regimes, fanatical heresy-suppressing religious movements and megalomaniacal genocidal dictators.
asiangrrlMN
By the way, Lawrence Wilkerson, who served under Colin Powell, penned this incisive missive excoriating Cheney’s claims.
The important paragraph is the one that starts, “What I am saying”. He finds that torture was not used after it was revealed that, um, we tortured. Therefore, torture was not used during the second W. term. Therefore, if Cheney’s assertion that torture works and that Obama has made the nation less safe by banning the practices, then it’s Cheney himself (and his marionette) who made us less safe.
srv
@asiangrrlMN:
Whatever happens, if anything happens, it will be like the 9/11 Commission. Nobody will be held responsible, no laws will be changed, and no Supreme Court ruling will establish any change over Article II powers, or the Unitary Executive. It is like an inspection of the detritus of the Empire.
This is just the Captain Renault routine the establishment does. Maybe Obama is really a nut, and he could use this to slap Nancy and Jane around a bit. Maybe one of them have to be sacrificed, and someone better (alas, other than a few like Feingold, it wouldn’t matter) could end up nearer the top.
TenguPhule
At a mountain of skulls on a throne of aborted gay fetuses surrounded by rivers of blood of a million rapture ready fundies.
asiangrrlMN
@MikeJ: Yes. Sigh. I have been accused of being an optimist because of this. It’s a flaw I have been trying to fix.
Shawn in ShowMe
The lady’s just reacting to the outragey personal attacks by Repubs. I’ve noticed that throughout her tenure — she only gets excited when the attacks get personal. Remember how animated she got when the Pubs were trying to blame her demeanor for their failure to vote for the stimulus bill?
In the newest development, Brother Gingrich calls for an investigation of Pelosi. Yawn.
cleek
Q: what would it take to set up such a commission ? whose authority is needed ?
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@asiangrrlMN:
Well, he is Bill Henrickson’s lawyer on Big Love.
Calouste
Why is Halperin still considered relevant after his “White men need not apply” shitpiece?
Cat Lady
@** Atanarjuat **:
I’m still not used to your non-spoofing, but that’s the point that needs to be made over and over and over, and the fucking press seems to be incapable of making it, or even conceiving of it. TORTURE. IS. ALWAYS. WRONG. If anyone – Dem. or Rep.- is or was on the other side of that line, then let the chips fall where they may. Bring it on.
Svensker
What is it with Nancy Pelosi and the rightards? Why does she inflame them so? Can anyone ‘splain me?
Andrew
But Nancy Pelosi is shrill!
asiangrrlMN
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: WTF????? Larry acts? I did not know. Thanks for the heads’ up. I would like him to get his own show on MSNBC, though. He’s feisty (shouldn’t that be i before e except after c?) now that he’s reached his tipping point.
@Calouste: Cause he’s a Serious Person with Serious Ideas. Or conversely, because he sells?
bvac
Whether Pelosi was briefed, mislead, lied to or not, if she is taken down on the way to finding the truth, that is 100% alright by me.
Cat Lady
Because shut up, that’s why.
cleek
@Svensker: she’s a high-profile Democrat, from SF.
Andrew
Because white men (namely Fred Hiatt &co) are the ones who decide what’s relevant.
Shawn in ShowMe
The GOP is a white male patriarchy. Yet these godless Dems have a woman speaking her own mind and arguing that honest white men support a socialist agenda.
R-Jud
@Svensker:
Dunno. She has a hoo-ha and she’s from San Francisco?
Will
@Punchy:
Yeah, that really does sum it up. Love it.
Laertes
If I have to guess who’s lying, the politicians or the spies, I’m going to have to figure they both are.
That said, the CIA’s credibility on this specific issue is shot to hell on account of the stunt they tried to pull with Graham.
mvr
Not to detract from the substance of the thread, but the title of this one is another fine instance in the long line of clever title references on this blog of late. Wish I could do that.
croatoan
He tried to kill bin Laden, and was accusing of wagging the dog. Then-governor George W. Bush said, “I’m not going to fire a $2 million missile at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt.”
DougJ
Thanks. It comes of putting more effort into the titles than the posts themselves.
Paul L.
I remember progressives claiming Bush is an idiot because of his poor performance at News conferences.
Silent on Pelosi’s performance yesterday.
How do you explain Carrie Prejean and progressives going after her? Or only gay men can criticize a woman?
Kind of rebukes your narrative.
The Cat Who Would Be Tunch
@DougJ:
Oh dear. We’re going to have to do something about that. Don’t you remember your Nietzsche? Methinks you need to stop obsessing over the media, such as the WaPo chats, Jake Tapper tweets, and NYT redefining words like “torture” and “never”, lest you become like them.
DougJ
Nietzsche blogged? I thought he just twittered.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@asiangrrlMN:
My vote is Truth Commission, Aye.
TenguPhule
Funny, I remember us calling him an idiot because he was an idiot.
Little Dreamer
@asiangrrlMN:
As someone said above (sorry I am too lazy to go back and reference it) I think this “Truth Commission” is going to turn out exactly like the 9/11 Commission, and I’m really not interested.
Personally, to me, I want the nightmare to go away and for us to get on with our lives and try to forget the last eight years ever occurred. I want a normal world again, not one where one political party is ready to take up arms and shoot at the other party, and secede from the union because of all this hatred and division.
Bush and Cheney created the division, I want it to end, I want to just move on and try to get along with those who haven’t eaten the crazy candy and marginalize those who have to the best of our ability so we can try to re-establish a normal world again. I personally don’t care about prosecutions, Cheney is on his last leg, I think – and Bush probably wouldn’t understand the veracity of the situation even if he spent the rest of his life behind bars in the Hague anyway.
I just want this shit to finally be over (I’m sure my opinion will not be popular, I expect that, it’s okay, it’s still my opinion).
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Little Dreamer:
Your point on the 911 commission is well taken, but I think that the suggested Truth Commission here is an opportunity to get some things settled if settling is needed.
But at the end of the day, I agree with you that it’s time to move on from this business. If the TC helps in that regard, great. If not, if it just turns into a circus, then I’d be disappointed.
Little Dreamer
I seem to remember every time Bush was on the television that he was acting and talking like an idiot. What was that one about obstetricians, oh yeah, they were performing their love on their patients? Here’s the quote:
Need I say more?
Little Dreamer
@DanSmoot’sGhost:
I see little being settled, and a lot of civil unrest coming out of the uncovering of the facts. I think it will be bad for the country, personally.
By the way, thanks for lunch. ;)
Paul L.
@TenguPhule:
Then I will use the same standard,
Nancy Pelosi is an idiot.
Remember this bit of brilliance.
With her and Biden the next in line for the Presidency , I pray for Obama’s good health.
Little Dreamer
@Paul L.:
You would cite Nancy Pelosi talking about whether we can pin down and identify the moment that life begins in a fetus, but you would give George Bush a pass?
I call that partisan bullshit. Pelosi’s argument at least has some relevance. 90% of what came out of George Bush’s mouth sounded like gibberish. He was embarrassing.
I just sat in a restaurant with TZ and told him I think Nancy Pelosi has some very serious communication problems, but at least the quote you cited makes some sort of sense.
El Cid
Well, of course questions like “when life begins” are ‘above the pay grade’ of primitive institutions like the Catholic Church, because those are questions of definition in terms grounded upon science, not some silly gaggle of priests in funny uniforms.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Little Dreamer:
YAQW.
Little Dreamer
@El Cid:
According to the Bible, if it is to be believed, life begins at the moment life is breathed into a person (first breath), Adam was the first, and since the Bible makes no distinction that others coming after him are different, all others apparently are alive when life is breathed into them as well.
Nellcote
Doesn’t anybody remember John Conyer’s attempt to investigate and his hearing was assigned a broom closet in the basement that was only covered by c-span? Easy to say now, well everybody knew, why didn’t they investigate.
As for trusting newspaper reports, two words Judith Miller.
kay
@El Cid:
I thought that was a good answer. It is above his pay grade. It’s a polite way to say he’s not going to answer that question.
Not all questions have to be answered. Even when posed by self-help pablum preachers who are trying to be taken seriously.
He doesn’t have to answer Oprah either. Same concept.
TenguPhule
And this is supposed to prove what?
That Obama and Pelosi have a clever response for the pagan murdering motherfuckers of the Catholic Church?
TenguPhule
And people will forget and rewrite history to make those butchers as heroes or some other bullshit.
No, there need to be trials, convictions, sentences and firing squads.
There need to be bodies denied burial on US soil and shame branded on the clans.
In short, future generations need a solid reference as to why these kinds of things must never be done for any reason.
Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower then just curse the darkness.
Little Dreamer
@Little Dreamer:
One interesting little tidbit about that “God breathed life into Adam” thing – thousands of years ago, they had no way of knowing that what we inhale (oxygen) and what we exhale (carbon dioxide) are not the same thing. To the men who wrote that material thousands of years ago, breath was breath, going in and coming out.
So, if you follow this through, for God to have breathed life into Adam means God exhales oxygen. ;) Hmmmmm!
Little Dreamer
@TenguPhule:
TenguPhule, we already have a gazillion books written about the last eight years, history will not be rewritten no matter HOW badly Cheney wants to wish it so.
kay
@TenguPhule:
Okay, but I’m watching cable news and liberals are forming a circular firing squad, with Pelosi, who is a liberal, in the middle.
Go liberals! Stone her to death! That’ll learn Cheney!
DanSmoot'sGhost
@TenguPhule:
I look forward to your forthcoming book, “Government by Ethnic Cleansing, Purges, Tribunals and Death Sentences, a Short History of the Uncivilized World” with its companion appendix, “One Quarter Page of Actual Complete Annotated Case Studies From History.”
Ghost authored by the Three Stooges.
{ add to cart }
TenguPhule
We had a gazillion books about how the New Deal saved America.
Now we have Liberterians trying to convince people the exact opposite.
We have idiots trying to say McCarthy was a fucking misunderstood patriot.
Eternal fucking vigiliance.
TenguPhule
Look, I don’t care what nationality they are, if they’re fundies or Republicans, they need to be tried, convicted and executed.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@TenguPhule:
Now, now, you are just trying to jack up the price of your book.
Oh wait, you live in Hawaii. Has the Kapu System taken over there again?
TenguPhule
Oh, low blow.
It wasn’t perfect, but it worked.
Paul L.
What @Little Dreamer: and TenguPhule overlooked is that Pelosi
or as you say it a “pagan murdering motherfucker” and claims the Absolute Moral Authority to speak for all Catholics.
Little Dreamer
@TenguPhule:
Those books still exist. The knowledge hasn’t gone away, we just have a small segment of the population that doesn’t believe in science, or studying how government has a duty to take care of its’ citizens – yet they believe a being thought itself into existence a few thousand years ago or so who wrote a book filled with a bunch of contradicting information (well, they don’t know that it’s contracting, they think their superman God created it (and if he did, he’s a lousy author) – it’s not the history or the ideas, it’s an entire segment of the population that is anti-thinking. They should be marginalized, but the books will still be there. History will teach our grandchildren that a man named Bush started a war for profit, killing untold thousands of innocents and damn near bankrupted our country to keep us safe from a threat that never actually existed. He will be considered a fool.
TenguPhule
You confuse the church and the worshippers yet again.
Little Dreamer
@Paul L.:
Bullshit. She was merely answering a question with her own opinion, that she agreed with Obama. She is not a preacher, she is not a church officer, she is Speaker of the House, and what she stated was her opinion only. That you take offense to it is only proof that you are small minded enough to look for error in a place where none should be accorded, it was her opinion, not church doctrine.
Shawn in ShowMe
C’mon now. We live in a country where no one in the CIA or the military was ever convicted for murdering a sitting President. Being sentenced to death for torturing “enemy combatants” isn’t even in the realm of possibility.
TenguPhule
I wish I had your confidence.
Tricky Dick Nixon is still not reviled in history classes yet.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@TenguPhule:
LOL.
Aloha, or something.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Little Dreamer:
Speaking of that … I heard something interesting on the wireless Marconi set today. Er, the radio.
They were talking about this “controversy” over Obama speaking at Notre Dame, and how Catholics were “upset” about it.
Turns out that Obama won 54% of the Catholic vote, according to the moderator, which is higher than his margin in the general population. In other words, he won more of the Catholic vote that he did the general vote.
So …. now the loser Catholics are going to claim that it’s “wrong” for him to speak at a Catholic school?
Hey LoserCatholics: FUCK YOU.
Little Dreamer
@TenguPhule:
And Frost/Nixon was released in movie theatres just a few months ago because history is starting to look at that time now. It takes a certain number of years for these things to occur, they don’t happen overnight. That the movie was released and shows the Nixon adage “if the president does it, it’s not illegal” is a first step to re-setting the history so it is not biased.
The problem is that there were some who thought Nixon was a great guy (my father was one of them) and those people became the Rush Limbaughs and the Dick Cheneys of the world. They are losing power, and one day we will speak much louder about those things, I’m sure.
Little Dreamer
@DanSmoot’sGhost: The Catholics have their own divisions with wingnut adherents and non-wingnut. I was amazed when I found this out, because I was always brought up to understand Catholics were wingnuts, not Democratic voters – imagine my surprise when I married into a Democratic Catholic family. ;)
Blue Raven
@TenguPhule:
As of 1984, he certainly was in my hometown in rural Massachusetts.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Little Dreamer:
So there are good Catholics and bad Catholics.
Heh!
Little Dreamer
@DanSmoot’sGhost:
There is good and bad in everything, even you and me. We are no exception. ;)
Tonal Crow
Cool! Let’s investigate bystander Pelosi — after we investigate perps Bush, Cheney, et al.
Agreed, GOPers?
P.S. Now this “software” strips u tags?
sloan
Old Wingnut Meme: “We didn’t torture, but it worked!”
New Wingnut Meme: “We tortured, but Pelosi might have known about it!”
Karl Rove wrote in the WSJ yesterday that Pelosi is “an accessory to a crime of torture”. But wait – Pelosi couldn’t have known about of these crimes unless Rove is admitting that Bush and Cheney committed the “crime of torture” in the first place.
When I read the winger blogs and see all the high-fiving and gloating about Pelosi I wonder if anyone has gamed this out to its logical conclusion. There is no way they take out Pelosi without first admitting that Bush and Cheney are war criminals. “What did Pelosi know about our crimes and when did she know it?” is a damn weak defense.
These guys have painted themselves into a corner with their tongues. They cede a little more ground every day while trying to get their stories straight.
And BTW – these CIA records we’re talking about are from the pre-Iraq War days of George “Slam dunk!” Tenet. Since when is the CIA considered an infallible source of accurate terror intel?
Joe Buck
This is great. I think we’re going to get a real investigation after all.
Pelosi’s already talking about a Truth Commission, to investigate what everyone (including herself) knew, when they knew it, and what they were responsible for. Her critics will now have a hard time blocking such an investigation; their best hope is that Obama tries to block it, but since the Republicans will then accuse him of covering up for Pelosi, who for some reason is the only person guilty of any misconduct related to waterboarding, at some point he’ll back off and the truth might actually get out.