I was under the impression that Franken had been declared the winner again the other night, but according to the NY Times, that apparently was not the definitive win. Does anyone have any idea how many more times Franken has to win before he is considered the winner? And at what point did Senate elections turn into the political equivalent of the World Series?
Reader Interactions
72Comments
Comments are closed.
Trackbacks
-
[…] John Cole on Al Franken winning his Senate multiple times: I was under the impression that Franken had been declared the winner again the other night, but according to the NY Times, that apparently was not the definitive win. Does anyone have any idea how many more times Franken has to win before he is considered the winner? And at what point did Senate elections turn into the political equivalent of the World Series? […]
Joshua Norton
Coleman has 10 days to file an appeal with the state Supreme Court. Then after both sides probably have a food fight over which judges should recuse themselves, they’ll have a trial. That should end it. Unless, of course, Coleman can somehow convince the SCOTUS to hear it.
Ninerdave
Until Coleman finds a judge to overturn the election.
pablo
I have it from a good source that this will go on forever!
Poopyman
… And after SCOTUS refuses, Pawlenty will drag it out as long as he can before signing the certificate. Probably will refuse until his own skin is at stake.
wvng
I was impressed that the Times framed the story around poor Norman.
Robert Johnston
Until the Senate grows a spine, reads the fucking Constitution, notes that "each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members," and seats Franken. The Senate could do that right now, or the Senate could wait until all appeals are over and a certificate of election is issued. It’s a sign of pathetic weakness among the Democrats that the Senate didn’t seat Franken long ago, at least provisionally, once it became indisputably clear that he’d almost certainly won.
beltane
When a Republican receives the most votes, he is declared the winner. When a Democrat receives the most votes, he or she must wait until the Republican decides to concede. It is written thus in the teabaggers’ version of the Constitution.
BDeevDad
Even Joe Scarborough is telling Coleman to stop . i guess he’s a RINO
Stoic
The Bush vs. Gore gang haven’t had a crack at it yet. It has to run the entire gamut of Republican office holders before it’s real.
J.
LOVE the comments.
Any particular World Series you had in mind? Which team do you think Franken is most like? Coleman?
Xenos
It is a shame Coleman can’t be stuck with Franken’s legal bills by now.
Franken seems to be playing the long game. He is not in politics for the power, but to try to stop the Republicans. I would like to think that Coleman and the RNC are poisoning Republicanism in the upper midwest with these antics.
Bulworth
@Joshua Norton:
Another trial? They just had one.
Zifnab
@Robert Johnston:
It’s a sign of modesty and propriety. The last thing we need is a Senate precedent where Mitch McConnell can just go around naming Senators any way he damn well pleases. I’ve got no problem with letting this work its way through the state courts. Once the Minnesota SC stamps approval, then I might expect Reid to start taking matters into his own hands. But going outside the traditional path of Senate confirmation leaves everyone open to even more lawsuits. And with a SCOTUS leaning hard right as it is, I really don’t want to see what a Scalia ruling will result in.
LD50
Prediction: Coleman won’t give up til after SCOTUS refuses to hear it, sometime this summer. Then they’ll have to hold a gun to Pawlenty’s head to make him sign off on it. Meanwhile, the RNC will pay Coleman’s legal bills for as long as it takes, and Coleman will emerge permanently unelectable to any politicial office ever. Then Franken will coast to re-election in 2014.
WereBear
I read that the ruling did bill Coleman for Franken’s legal fees.
r€nato
@Robert Johnston:
what do you think the GOP would have done if the shoe were on the other foot – they controlled the Senate and it was Coleman who emerged with the most votes after a lengthy recount?
Shit, they would have sworn him in on Jan. 3rd without waiting for Franken to exhaust his legal appeals. Astroturf protests would have been organized and dogged Franken wherever he went.
I fucking hate these motherfuckers.
Comrade Dread
Like many Democrats, you continue to abide by the notion that the Republican establishment would respect precedent and wouldn’t do exactly as you fear anyway.
LD50
I heard he was. But it’s all on the RNC’s tab anyway.
Tom Q
I’m really glad you highlighted this tripe, which is obsequious-to-the-right even by Nagourney’s usual standard, and almost made me gag over breakfast today. It seems like Coleman was given about 60% or more of the column inches, and the "how will we ever really know who won?" tone brings to mind Krugman’s imagined headline over a GOP claim the earth is flat, "Shape of Earth: Views Differ".
As Eric Alterman says, my age and cultural dispositions make it difficult for me to imagine a world without the Times in my hands every morning. But, more and more, it’s the concept of the Times and not its actuality that arouse that feeling.
Martin
Ah, but even then Pawlenty can refuse to sign the certificate, triggering a whole new round of lawsuits that can run up through SCOTUS. For extra wingnut bonus points, he should announce a special election to resolve the issue, so there are plenty of other things to file lawsuits around. It’s like Norm said back on November 5 about how important it was to fight for democracy:
Zach
Since the District Court has ruled in his favor, Norm Coleman will be responsible for the attorneys’ fees for both parties for the remainder of the appeals process in MN (assuming he loses, and he will). I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if the MN Supreme Court refuses to hear the case at all; they settled all the matters of law w/ their order setting up the absentee recount and the District Court followed it perfectly as far as I can tell (and Coleman hasn’t claimed otherwise). I would be surprised if the US Supreme Court hears the case… they have no case at all.
Keith
Coleman will wait until day 9 to file an appeal because this is merely about the GOP keeping 59 Senators to essentially give them Franken’s seat when it comes to filibustering.
If the court does not make the loser pay the winner’s court fees for the non-stop appeals, then this will become a strategy over and over again, as there becomes little downside to essentially taking the basketball and drop-kicking it into the neighbor’s yard.
Ed Drone
WARNING: If you have an election lasting more than four months, see your Constitution immediately.
Ed
TenguPhule
At this point, doesn’t Franken have grounds to sue Coleman for frivolous lawsuits?
TenguPhule
POTD.
Zifnab
@Keith:
I think Nate Silver did the math on this. As it stands, six years as Senator from Minnesota will cost you about $21 million to "purchase" in campaign costs. So do some math and you can find out how much its worth the RSCC to keep Franken out of the seat day to day.
As it stands, Senate seats are valuable things. It might still be worth it to pick up Franken’s legal bills if it keeps the seat clear. And then there’s the matter of Franken’s lawyers actually collecting the debt… Good luck with that. You’ll need an army of lawyers to get it out of Coleman.
Zach
@Keith: Check my post; Franken’s responsible for costs during the election contest before the District Court, but the loser foots the bill after that, whoever it may be. I suppose Coleman could contest the election, be awarded some sort of modified recount, and still lose but get Franken to pay the costs of the appeal :)
asiangrrlMN
I think they should just have a joke-off. Al would win fer sure, ya, you betcha. Al is the Twins and Coleman is not.
I am watching Olbermann from last night. Coleman is mealy-mouthing about how it’s a six-year term, and it’s imperative we get this right. Does this mean he’s fighting for six fricking years?????????
Excuse me, but every time Coleman has challenged, he has lost more and more votes. Come on, Norm! As for Pawlenty, I am with Olbermann.
IMPEACH GOVERNOR PAWLENTY! (If he doesn’t sign the certificate).
Polish the Guillotines
Let’s not forget that while all the election shenanigans are going on, Norm Coleman is under investigation for receiving illegal campaign funds.
After the Ted Stevens debacle, I doubt Eric Holder will act in haste, but there’s a pretty big legal shoe that could drop on Coleman at any time.
gbear
Tim Pawlenty isn’t going to have the option of dicking around with signing the certificate if he wants to have any kind of future in MN. Minnesotans have been patient in waiting for this to get thru the courts, but if there are any delays after the Supreme Court makes it’s ruling, the lid is going to blow here. All this recent focus on how the members of Supreme Court are all tainted is feeling like another PR campaign to discredit any decision they arrive at, and it feels like bullshit. The Supreme Court isn’t ruling on the candidates, they’re looking at the ruling provided by the lower court. The lower court has bent over backwards, sideways, and inside out in providing a bulletproof, waterproof, moron proof judgement. The work has been done and anything else that enters into this is pure corruption. grrrrr
anonevent
@Zach: Franken should start hiring more and more lawyers. He can claim he’s doing his part to help the economy, on Coleman’s tab.
The Other Steve
Norm can appeal to the state supreme court, but it’s over. The district court was unanimous and worded their decision pretty strongly.
Once the SC has ruled, Pawlenty will quickly sign the cert. He has never been one to have much political courage. He plays games, but he won’t go beyond what he can reasonably get away with with nobody giving a shit.
I would expect the state SC to rule quickly, and likely just affirm the lower court ruling.
The Other Steve
Yeah, and it looks like a pretty strong case if the guy making the claims is credible.
The Moar You Know
An appeal to the Minnesota Supreme Court. Then a possible stop at the US Supreme Court. Then there will have to be another court action to force Pawlenty to sign it, as he’ll refuse on the grounds that "the process is so messed up there is no way to legitimately determine the winner", which will mark the first time a Republican has ever given a shit about "the will of the people".
If Coleman/Pawlenty/the GOP play this right, this could easily take another six months.
AL
This is like a poorly played game of Victoria, when the AI has beaten the player and occupies all but one of his provinces. So the player leans back and waits, saying, "Okay, I know you own all my territory, but can you handle occupying it, FOREVER?"
No white peaces for Coleman. This is truly a pathetic state of affairs for Minnesota and their joke GOP.
mellowjohn
zinfab @ #26…
senate seats are "fucking golden." i know because my ex-governor said so.
gbear
New poll in MN. 63% want Norm to concede, 59% want TPaw to sign the certificate.
zmulls
I think there’s a Federal Appeals step in between the MN Supreme Court and SCOTUS?
I’m assuming that after the MN Supremes affirm Franken’s win, that Reid and Franken will be ready to claim victory. They’re letting MN election law take its natural course.
asiangrrlMN
As of last night, Pawlenty is still refusing to sign the damn certificate. I am furious with Ratface Pawlenty, and the fact that he is likely to be re-elected pisses me off even more. I am not so sanguine that his political future is in jeopardy (Pawlenty) if he continues to drag his feet on this.
P.S. Howard Dean is killing me on last night’s Rachel’s show. "These tea-bagging parties, whatever they call them."
r€nato
if your average ‘thuglican had any sense of decency and fair play, the numbers would be more like 90%. But they don’t, so they aren’t.
There’s nothing about this election which anybody can reasonably claim renders it fradulent or suspicious. This has all revolved around Coleman using technicalities – many of them absurd and several of them contradicting previous positions taken by his legal team with regards to how ballots should be counted – to try to discover a few hundred pro-Coleman votes more than pro-Franken votes.
Phoenix Woman
@Xenos:
He has been, at least for the contest portion. The judgment the Election Contest Court handed down was: Dismissed. With. Prejudice.
JK
Norm Coleman’s current state of mind
The recount process was "not about me," Norm Coleman tells WCCO. "It is about the rights of Minnesotans to have votes counted so that when all is said and done whoever is elected can have the confidence of the people that they got the most legally cast votes."
A Minnesota Supreme Court judge in line to decide the election contest is a two-time Norm Coleman donor. The MyDD blog stirs the pot by noting Christopher Dietzen has twice donated 250 bucks to Norm’s Senate efforts, in 2001 and 2004. Dietzen, Tim Pawlenty’s campaign lawyer, was elevated to the court in 2007.
...now I try to be amused
This is less like the World Series and more like a basketball game where the final minute on the game clock takes 20 minutes.
I say we count all of Franken’s post-election "wins" as future election wins and skip the next three Senatorial elections. That’ll teach ’em.
Whitey
Mark Richie said that the MSC should end it.
And "with prejudice" means Coleman can’t refile. Under Minnesota law it does not mean Coleman get’s Franken’s legal bills. (Though it could, but that’d be an additional provision and not implied merely by being dismissed with prejudice.
J. Michael Neal
If the Democrats can stop nominating celebrities, Pawlenty’s re-election isn’t that certain. No more Frankens or Ciresis or Daytons. We have to have some strong candidates somewhere.
I think Norm should run for the state Supreme Court, so he can add a loss to a defensive tackle to his list of being beaten by a professional wrestler and a comedian.
MNPundit
Potentially 2
State Supreme Court, SCOTUS (probably some due process claim).
Joshua Norton
AP ran an article that stated the court found Franken to be the "top vote getter". They just can’t bring themselves to use the word "winner".
PaulW
Three choices:
A) When the Republicans realized they enjoyed being sore losers even more than the Democrats did.
B) When the Yankees started sucking from 2000 onward.
C) When they tried selling the idea that the Bush v. Gore decision was a one-time deal. Being hypocrites of the highest order, you knew the Republicans were gonna break that idea as soon as frakkin possible.
Evinfuilt
@Ninerdave:
Simply, Franken has to win forever and ever, until Coleman wins once then Franken must bow out for the good of their state.
Robert Johnston
@Zifnab:
Hardly. We, in fact, already have that precedent. Senators have been provisionally seated before pending state legal proceedings. There’s nothing modest about allowing yourself to be walked all over, especially when you know the other side is acting in bad faith.
If Coleman had a good faith argument that there’s a non-negligible chance that he won, things might be different, but he doesn’t. The Democrats have once again responded to Republican bad faith by engaging the Republicans on the Republicans’ own terms. This is exactly what they’ve done for the last 16 years, and it’s never worked. Look at Republican versus Democratic use of the filibuster. Look at what resulted from the Democrats engaging Whitewater and the Iraq invasion on Republican terms. Until the Democrats start responding to Republican bad faith other than by lying in the mud while Republicans drive over them, Democrats will be completely useless.
Xecky Gilchrist
What you’re all forgetting is that Al Franken personally insulted Rush Limbaugh – with a book, even! – and must for that be punished eternally. Along with everybody else who doesn’t like the smell of farts.
Napoleon
I have to admit Franken winning is the most satisfying result from last November, other then Obama.
Xecky Gilchrist
I have to admit Franken winning is the most satisfying result from last November, other then Obama.
It is true, and this is why the Redoublechins will fight until their last breath and/or nugget of poo to stop it from happening.
oh really
I always have a difficult time understanding this line of argument, since it assumes a level of interest and political awareness that is rare or absent in the United States. It’s hard for me to imagine that Pawlenty will pay any price at all for his actions (or inaction) in this case. Neither candidate is particularly popular and the electorate was evenly split. Had the third party candidate not run, isn’t it likely that Coleman would have won a clear, if narrow, victory?
The Republicans who voted for Coleman are unlikely to punish Pawlenty for dragging this out, and I can easily imagine that large segments of the independent population don’t care enough about either candidate, either way, to make trouble. Besides, if Franken is seated, he’ll be Senator for at least 5, 4, 3, or 2 years (choose one) before the next election, at which time the issues are highly unlikely to focus on the 2008 election aftermath.
On the other hand, this probably is Coleman’s dying (political) breath. His behavior now will certainly not help him in 2012 and his party will undoubtedly want a more promising candidate than whiny Norm. In Washington State, Gregoire barely won election in 2004 and Rossi was widely portrayed as the victim of a stolen election. Yet, four years later, in the midst of some fairly ominous signs of economic difficulties, he was unable to convince voters that what happened in 2004 entitled him in any way to a victory in 2008 — he lost decisively to Gregoire in their rematch.
Further, the Republicans have a genuine genius in making winners appear to be losers (or thieves) and the media are virtually always willing to lend a hand. The real long term loser in this could be Franken, who will carry the stigma of the unpleasant election aftermath with him. It’s not fair, but neither is what’s happening now.
Wile E. Quixote
Didn’t you hear John, Coleman’s attorney said that there was "a whole universe of votes" that remained to be counted." Presumably he was referring to an alternate universe where Coleman isn’t a douchebag and won the election.
asiangrrlMN
@J. Michael Neal: I like Mark Dayton. It is not his fault that he is from a famous family. As for celebrities…Jesse Ventura won. Remember that?
However, I think the problem is that MN is rather schizophrenic in nature. We tend to vote Democratic for president of the United States, but Republican for governor.
Right now, MN has five or six candidates for the governor’s race. I like two of them a lot (yes, including Mark Dayton), and I am intrigued by the others. I really do not want Pawlenty to be re-elected. This time, I need to get off my ass and do something about it. I have no doubts, however, that it will be a very close race.
Nellcote
Reid can’t seat Frankin before he gets certification because he (Reid) required it of Burris.
jcricket
@oh really: Thanks for reminding people of the Gregoire/Rossi 04 and 08 contests. Hope everyone who’s been paying attention has noticed that Franken’s lawyers are the same ones that helped Gregoire in 2004. They learned from that case and have done an absolutely brilliant job from a legal perspective (which is why rulings end up in their favor, time and again).
The problem is they have dishonest opponents, who will stop at nothing to keep Franken from being seated. As our blog host here said, what can you do when one side is all, "tire rims and anthrax"?
Blue Raven
FTFY.
Bill Teefy
@Napoleon: Franken being seated will be like extra-sweet. I might call Bill-Os show to complain about Senator Franken just to drop the F-Bomb on him.
AnneLaurie
Ditto. And one reason to hate them so fervently is how much these Rethuglican Ratfvckers have done to poison the political wells for all sides of every issue — every schoolboard election and district fencing inspector appointment has turned into a mixed-martial-arts "showdown" where one side must not only win, but cartoonishly krush teh loozer 4evah. It’s the political equivalent of introducing crack cocaine and semi-automatics into the gang wars — it plays to the Rethugs’ "strengths" in the short term, but in the end it just destroys the entire neighborhood.
gex
@gbear:
You underestimate the GOP’s ability to build a better moron.
Corner Stone
@Zifnab
Others have called out this portion but I wanted to add that, IMO, this is all wrong. Precedent, schmecedent. Continuing to believe, and act on the belief, that Repubs will somehow honor a set of rules put in place by honest people, is the living example of Einstein’s definition of insanity.
They will fuck anyone and everyone at every opportunity, have no shame and never look back. Then if someone else on the D side tried something similar they’d fall face first onto their fainting couches, scream to the high heavens about the unfairness and despicable behavior committed by the D’s – and the media would lap it up and provide absolutely zero context. The R’s would drive public opinion on it via the media, and never ever, ever exhibit the slightest sense of shame, hypocrisy or remorse.
They are the very definition of bastard and can not be treated farily or decently in polite society. IOW, fuck them all, fuck them up their stupid asses.
TenguPhule
The GOP simply builds better morons.
Robert Johnston
@TenguPhule: "The GOP simply builds better morons."
I believe that’s called "Unintelligent Design."
The Raven
There’s good coverage over at firedoglake, but the basic answer is, probably until the Minn. State Supreme Court rules, after which Franken will be seated. However the US Chamber of Commerce & a number of major business groups have sworn to raise money for Coleman, so they may actually drag it to the Supreme Court.
Bitty
Florida thanks you, Minnesota, for becoming the new butt of election jokes.
Seriously, thanks.
dc
Unlike Florida, where Gore would have won with full recount, the Mn candidate garnering most votes won.
Press labeled Gore 2000 as ‘sore loser’ in a closer election, a distinct difference than coddling received by Coleman….
the press seemingly as careful as the ECC was of appeal(s), despite floundering legal arguments..
Also, Mn Law may allow court to certify election, bypassing need for Gov Pawlenty to sign…
The process is working although some legislative limits on judicial delays seems warranted.
Robertdsc-iphone
CornerStone @ 63:
I grant that the GOP are and act like animals, but if we Dems don’t abide by the rule of law, then aren’t we acting just like the GOP? I think that someone in the room has to me an adult & let things play out.
Because if we don’t, we’re no better than the Bushies in 2000 who short-circuited the process.
Besides, when Franken wins all the way down the line, the taste of victory will be that much sweeter because we won fair & square.
mclaren
John Cole asked
When Republicans stopped believing in the rule of law. That happened sometime during the Nixon administration. The Reagan administration extended its contempt for the rule of law with the Iran-Contra subversion of Congress’ power to declare war, and the recent maladministration of the drunk-driving C student raised systematic disdain for the law to the level of central dogma in the Republican party.
When you deal with lawless people, you cannot expect them to admit defeat. They must be crushed down and ground into powder, slowly and relentlessly, until they either get hauled away to prison (Erlichman, Haldeman, Ed Meese, Abramoff, Tom DeLay) or forced out of public life entirely (Egil Krogh, Oliver North, Newt Gingrich, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz).
Robert Johnston
@Robertdsc-iphone: "I grant that the GOP are and act like animals, but if we Dems don’t abide by the rule of law, then aren’t we acting just like the GOP?"
According to the Constitution, that document most central to rule of law in this country, the Senate and the Senate alone is the final judge of the election of Senators. If the Senate has enough information to make that judgment and refuses to do so, that’s an abdication of the rule of law, not the enforcement thereof.