Wow. I honestly don’t think you would have seen something like this just a few years ago, but Lawrence O’Donnell is all up in Pat Buchanan’s grill in this Hardball segment about the right-wing fauxtrage the past few weeks about Obama visiting Notre Dame:
Buchanan was left sputtering, and you don’t see that too often. Democrats are definitely feeling as if they are in charge now.
demimondian
The best part is O’Donnell calling Buchanan’s spew "nonsense". He doesn’t treat it deferentially, or as if Buchanan has some honest point to make, but calls him out on his bullshit.
It’s been too long since I’ve seen that simple dismissing of nonsense as nonsense.
MikeJ
If a Dem acts as is proper on a talking head screamfest, he’s lowering the tone. If a republican does it, he’s vigorously defending what he believes in.
dmsilev
That was a thing of beauty. Buchanan was thrashing around like a large fish with a large hook in its jaw.
-dms
srv
Are there five Catholic Supreme Court Justices now or six?
Are any of them going to the commencement?
asiangrrlMN
I loved it. I wish O’Donnell had called out Buchanan’s bull about not murdering innocents on death row, but other than that, I was happy to see Buchanan finally get the ass-kicking he deserved. As I mentioned in the other thread, I think it’s because O’Donnell is sick of blowhards like Buchanan co-opting his (O’Donnell’s) religion. I loathe Buchanan, and I can’t understand how Rachel enjoys debating with him.
I like a little fire in my politics, especially from the Democratic side as we’ve been a bit too meek.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
O’Donnell is fucking furious. That is so fucking admirable.
Pat obviously thinks he should be the Pope.
Oh, and the Catholic Church has a varied record on abortion.
And from now on, I’m going to say "Talk to the Pope!" instead of "Talk to the hand!"
Just Some Fuckhead
Meh, I still prefer the amicable O’Donnell. He must not be getting enough air time.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
JSF, you don’t know enough pissy Papists. I think O’Donnell was seriously angry with Buchanan’s hypocrisy.
MikeJ
A few years ago there was a mini controversy because American Catholics thought the Pope was full of shit about something (I forget what it was). Pat was on TV saying that if American Catholics didn’t blindly do as they were told they weren’t really Catholic, all the while forgetting that the *very first pope* had to be corrected by the laity.
D-Chance.
The Pirates of Somalia pic on Drudge… that’s it?
THOSE are the "feared" pirates terrorizing the shipping lanes?
A ragtag bunch of refugee rejects puttering around in an old washtub powered by a second-hand Evinrude?
And they’re making MILLIONS per "heist"?
Hell, lemme get my old bass boat out and tune-up the motor… I may have found a new business model for this recession.
Max
Wingnuts aren’t used to being called on their lies. They’ve gotten deferential treatment for so long, they think they are entitled to it. Nice to see what happens when anyone cares enough to burst their bubble.
asiangrrlMN
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I like this O’Donnell. He’s even, dare I say it, a bit…hot? Ok, maybe not.
AhabTRuler
Riposted from the other thread:
John Cole
I wasn’t sure what he was talking about regards to war- perhaps he was trying to get into just war theory again, but he failed to note that the Pope opposed our excellent adventure in Iraq. I remember O’Reilly freaking out about it at the time.
joes527
meh.
I hate our political discourse.
B: This is a Catholic U, and a core teaching of the Catholic Church is anti-abortion, so the U shouldn’t invite a pro abortion speaker (valid (not saying that this is the whole story, just that this is a valid point))
0: The Catholic Church also teaches against capital punishment and the Pope personally opposed the Iraq war, but there was no problem when W spoke at this U. This is a double standard. (valid)
Ensemble: Shout, shout, shout. Argue, argue, argue. Sputter, sputter, sputter.
Yeah, I get that B. was successfully shouted down this time, but it would be nice to live in a country where the strongest argument and not the strongest voice would be perceived to be the "winner."
wasabi gasp
Maybe instead, Hunchback could visit DC.
demimondian
@AhabTRuler: FWIW, no, the prohibition on execution was not issued _ex cathedra_. It’s doctrine, but it’s not infallible doctrine.
Then again, neither is the prohibition on abortion.
Just Some Fuckhead
So anyway, who knew Notre Dame was a catholic university?? How about that!
Jon
How is Pat Buchanan still on TV after his comments regarding African-Americans in the past?
demimondian
@John Cole: Under Just War theory, deaths occurring during the current War in Iraq are murders. There are a heck of a lot of them.
AhabTRuler
@demimondian: THX. That was what I was wondering; they hold equal force.
Laura W
Forget it. Gonna be misinterpreted and I’m too lazy to explain.
cyntax
@John Cole:
I thought he was referencing the Catholic Church’s opposition to the war; thus his mention of when the Pope asked that Iraq not be invaded. But maybe I’m adding that context.
Bill H
The only thing O’Donnel missed was when Buchanan spouted the "Every person executed has commited a murder" was to retort, "Except the ones convicted in error." It was beautiful, all in all. I love watching Buchanan reduced to sputtering.
Rosali
Do you remember Bill Clinton speaking at Georgetown U? No? Because it wasn’t a controversy then.
Montysano
@joes527:
Notre Dame, an American university, located in the USA also, should welcome and be honored to receive any POTUS any time. What a bunch of vile dickheads.
asiangrrlMN
@I have to cancel my comment because Laura W. canceled hers. Heifer.
How about those Twins?
kay
@joes527:
Well, if I were an anti-abortion activist, I’d be thrilled. It’s a chance to humiliate the pro-choice Prez, shame the Catholics who voted for him, AND it’s gotten national media coverage for The Cause for weeks.
What’s not to love, from an activist perspective?
I don’t know a thing about the people who run Notre Dame, but if they are as rabidly pro-life as they claim, this is working out well for them.
** Atanarjuat **
What a headache-inducing yellfest. All sound and fury.
And nothing got resolved by either side. And people think this kind of angry exchange is applause-worthy?
Civil discourse and debate has certainly fallen in this nation, without question.
-A
Laura W
@asiangrrlMN: "Heifer" is a tad harsh considering it was better suited to the previous thread.
I accept your apology.
iluvsummr
That was a thing of beauty.
Comrade Darkness
O’Donnell is all about whether Bush upheld the values of the Church. But he forgets that invading muslin countries with the express purpose of wanton killing is one of the oldest Catholic traditions, so it must be one of its values.
Rosali
How would Obama be humiliated if ND rescinded its invitation? There are 10,000 other universities lining up for an Obama speech.
Ash
On a semi-related noted, the highly regarded educational institution known as Arizona State University has decided that Obama isn’t accomplished enough to receive an honorary degree from them. Yeah………………………..I’m sure he’s heartbroken about it. Degrees from Columbia and Harvard are like tissue paper next to ASU ones.
sgwhiteinfla
John Cole
You should watch the video again, Odonnell did in fact point out that the Pope "begged" Bush not to go to war in Iraq. Lawrence O Donnell has been on fire lately. Don’t forget just a few weeks ago when he was on Morning Joe he damn near made Eric Cantor piss his pants when he kept asking him if Cantor would vote for the bill to tax the AIG bonuses. The dude is good when he wants to be. Or when he is genuinely pissed off.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@** Atanarjuat **:
Yeah, despite the best efforts of the people you are spoofing to prop up civil discourse, eh, asshole?
Mnemosyne
@kay:
Well, it doesn’t really make you (not you personally, but, you know, you) look sane to insist that the non-Catholic President of the United States should be disinvited from speaking because he disagrees with Catholic doctrine, what with not being a Catholic and all. It’s the kind of thing that lets all of the pro-lifers high-five each other ("Dude! We dissed the President!") but makes them look pretty stupid in front of the rest of the country.
srv
@** Atanarjuat **: All the democrats here are obviously takers, considering how much time they spend here stroking themselves.
What’s your excuse?
cyntax
@** Atanarjuat **:
Well, I’m sure Michelle Malkin and the rest will save it…
DanSmoot'sGhost
@sgwhiteinfla:
Larry is always pissed off. My kinda guy.
Who can listen to the pure sh*t that comes from the right and not be either pissed off or just slackjawed?
Chris Johnson
I didn’t find that all that beautiful. I’m with joes527. Does it always have to be a knockdown dragout fight? The only reason I sat through it is because I have spent years watching rightwingers use exactly that tactic to prevail, and their prevailing has done no good at all.
If we must have it, hurrah for it being equal shouting and RAAAAGE for all.
Buchanan was still wrong, not that he was prepared to admit it. And I thought more of a fuss could have been made over our ‘excellent Iraq adventure’. If Catholicism could have stopped that before it started, that would be a virtue. But they failed in that.
Tattoosydney
@** Atanarjuat **:
You leave Laura and asiangrrlMN alone.
HgMn
A strong performance by O’Donnell. Great stuff!
Pat says every person executed is a murderer — is he senile ?
Many an innocent has been executed — you can’t have it bothways –
against abortion and for execution .
And anyway can’t those at Notre Dame think for themselves
– having a speaker with some differing views and the President no less,
give an address should be a stimulus for thought — isn’t that a good thing?
I don’t believe the majority of students at Notre Dame are opposed to his visit.
Any polling to suggest otherwise?
grape_crush
Buchanan knew that his argument had no legs. You could see it in his face.
tammanycall
Awesome.
Jrod
In short, Buchanan believes that Catholic doctrine is absolute when he agrees with it, but "morality" is more important when he doesn’t. Also, polls don’t matter when they show that people disagree with Pat, but when polls show that they do agree then polls are valuable. Also, killing is fine unless you’re killing someone innocent, with innocent being literally defined as "hasn’t done a single goddam thing besides splitting some cells."
To think we let this guy run for Prez.
cyntax
@Chris Johnson:
But capitulating to them is worse. If there had been stiffer resistance in the political arena and the media to Bush’s Excellent Adventure, maybe we wouldn’t be where we are right now…
Litlebritdifrnt
Max was just hit by a car. I don’t know how I am going to get through this night. Tigger will be bereft, they were the best of friends. Shit. I hate people who speed on streets marked 25. I fucking hate them.
kay
@Mnemosyne:
Maybe. This isn’t about the rest of us, though. It’s about Catholics, and maybe Catholic voters, who left the fold in the last two elections. Powerful message, don’t you think?
I think Obama will probably benefit from it, in the end, because he’ll be gracious and generous, and they will be less so.
One of the personal qualities he has that I sincerely admire is his ability to handle himself well in hostile surroundings. No groveling, just straightforward decency and respect. That’s hard to resist.
I figure he learned that as a kid. It must have been an essential skill for him. Wherever he got it, I admire it.
sgwhiteinfla
Uhmmm kinda in the same vein, has anybody else heard about ASU not giving President Obama an honorary degree even though he is speaking at their commencement, because ahem he hasn’t done enough yet in their opinion?
Tax Analyst
I’m very sorry to hear that. I know how much that sucks.
Jrod
If Obama can’t speak at ND, he’ll choose a school that’s not run by political partisans pretending to be sooo devoutly religious to speak at. Sounds like a winner to me.
asiangrrlMN
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I am truly sorry. I take it Max is your dog? Stupid people going so fast on a residential street. Many vibes headed your way.
…
@Laura W: You expect ME to apolog–oh, wait. OK. Sorry. (Mumbles under breath).
@Tattoosydney: Ha! You tell him, Tattoosydney. Besides, I know ya’ll want to see a catfight. It ain’t gonna happen.
Montysano
Hardball is a circus. Give me Rachel Maddow any day. Her interview with Tim Pawlenty last night is what network news ought to look like.
monty +4
joes527
@kay: I wasn’t commenting on the question of whether Obama should be allowed to speak. I think that Notre Dame has a clear history of inviting speakers who disagree with the Catholic Church’s teaching, and of inviting Presidents.
I find compelling the argument that to treat Obama differently is unjustified.
I was commenting on the fact that there was all this rah-rah about two old guys yelling at each other when the "right" one successfully shouted down the "wrong" one.
And that’s what passes for debate in this country.
I find that depressing.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
Litlebritdifrnt, I am so sorry for you and for Tigger.
Paddy
HgMn@43
I can’t find the poll right now, but I’ve heard in the local media that over 80% of ND current students are fine with PBO speaking at the commencement. I believe the poll I saw was from a school publication.
demkat620
@Chris Johnson: Yes. Right now it does. There has to be loud and hard pushback on all this crap or the people who wrecked the country will be back in full force. There never give up. It’s always some new gimmick to hurt somebody who doesn’t look like them.
As the owner of this blog thingy once said, "The louder they squeal, the harder you hit" We’ve tried everything to convince them to stop. They won’t.
Bullshit has to be called. No more Mr. Nice Guy.
Svensker
@Litlebritdifrnt:
So sorry to hear that. Just awful. My sympathies.
joes527
@sgwhiteinfla: Unless I heard wrong, ASU has never given a president an honorary degree.
Feel free to disagree with their standards, but that does not look like a case of singling him out.
Just because they don’t choose to honor him doesn’t mean that they are dissing him.
** Atanarjuat **
@DanSmoot’sGhost:
Oh, but of course, Danny me boy. If everyone is an asshole to each other on TV, it will simply cancel out all the nastiness and we can all get along.
Way to go to miss my very clear point, old bean.
-A
Tonal Crow
@Litlebritdifrnt:
You have my sympathy. Was Max one of your kitties?
Cpl. Cam
Pat’s right tho, you’re definately not allowed to kill innocent civillians during war. You’re only allowed to damage the collateral areas, or something.
Tattoosydney
@asiangrrlMN:
Damn. Catfights, the dog pictures and the Youtube music wars are the only reasons I come here.
Jon H
Hm. How many Catholic soldiers were allowed to sit out the war because of the Pope’s position?
I mean, if the Republicans are so hot to let doctors and pharmacists refuse to provide service that contradicts their beliefs, surely they must approve of Catholic soldiers sitting out a war that lacks the Pope’s approval, right?
Just Some Fuckhead
This.
AnneLaurie
Litlebritdifrnt, I’m so sorry to hear about your loss. I hope you & Tigger can provide some comfort for each other…
cyntax
@Jon H:
Never thought about that–Interesting point.
asiangrrlMN
@demkat620: I agree with this. We need a plethora of tactics, including shouting in return. I am tired of Buchanan and his ilk being allowed to scream over their opponents when purportedly in the act of ‘debate’. In addition, I don’t think a little emotion is out-of-bounds in a debate. Granted, I would not wanting screaming all the time (which is why I don’t watch Hardball–well, that, and I can’t stand Matthews), but I thought it was appropriate in this case.
gex
@Litlebritdifrnt: Oh my God. I am so sorry to hear it. I would be devastated if it happened to one of mine, and I’m nearly devastated to hear it happened to one of yours. You are in my thoughts.
/tears
Jon H
OT: I don’t know if anyone else brought this up here today, but apparently Arne Duncan, Secretary of Education, introduced Neko Case at her show in DC recently.
This was set up by Tim Tuten, who is co-owner of the Hideout club/bar in Chicago, where Neko Case has been a mainstay, along with other artists in her genre.
And why did Tim Tuten set this up for Duncan? Tim Tuten is going to be working in the Department of Education, too. Apparently he used to be a teacher.
(via TNR’s Plank)
This is so cool. The Hideout was a favorite place of mine in Chicago. Saw Neko there, with and without the New Pornographers, and saw my friends’ band play.
sgwhiteinfla
joes527
If that is the case then I could understand but it still seems pretty ……dumb for them to frame it as that they weren’t granting it because he hadn’t done enough. Much easier just to say they had never given one to a President before I would think. I mean its not like their honorary degree would give him a bump in pay or anything. But its almost like they were inviting controversy by responding to the inquiry the way they did.
Tonal Crow
@** Atanarjuat **:
It’s interesting that you say that of Buchanan finally getting his comeuppance from an equally-loudmouthed opponent, considering that the religious right dragged discourse into the sewer in the late ’70s, when it launched its large-scale campaign to liken gay people to pedophiles.
asiangrrlMN
@Tattoosydney: Well, you can imagine it in your mind, then. Or draw it. You’re the artist, after all.
Litlebritdifrnt, oh my god, Max was your cat????? I have two of my own, and I don’t know what I would do. Sorry I assumed he was a dog. More condolences from me to you.
LD50
By the way, this ain’t a bad example of clownish Republican behavior, either:
(I thought the traditional number was 205.)
Ricky Bobby
"Your argument is with the Pope, not me!"
PWNT.
Library Grape
@joes527: Let’s be honest here. There is a place for passionate smackdowns in our discourse. Like it or not, the proles want it and its delivered unto them 24×7. It ain’t going away.
With that in mind, one of the biggest problems with Dems entering the lions den over the last few years is that they let conservative nonsense peddlers get over on them time and time again. It led to a sense among the proles that the Dems are pussies. It’s nice to see someone on the Dem side so effectively disabuse them of this notion.
TR
Christ, that was a thing of beauty.
O’Donnell put that smug Cafeteria Catholic in his place like a nun with a ruler.
I think I need a cigarette.
Litlebritdifrnt
Max was one of my nine kitties, he was adorable, and an absolute menace. Right now I would give anything to have him back. Absolutely anything. I would kill to have him back tormenting me right now. I would kill to have him dig his claws into my knee. Shit. I would kill to just have him asking for a hug. I am so fucked right now I can’t even tell you.
Library Grape
@joes527: Nonsense. Do some googling first. From the mouth of the beast:
"ASU Media Relations Director Sharon Keeler says, unlike other universities, the processes for selecting commencement speakers and honorary degree recipients are independent. She says that honorary degrees are given "for an achievement of eminence" and that Obama was not considered for an honorary degree because his body of achievements, at this time, does not fit within that criteria."
From an Arizona editorial:
"Arizona State University has handed out honorary doctorate degrees to pioneering scientists and college presidents, titans of oil and computer microchips, newspaper publishers and generous donors, a foreign communist educator and a successful movie director.
But others had much still to accomplish. Barry Goldwater received his honorary degree in May 1961, three years before his Republican nomination for president and only eight years into his three decades as a U.S. senator. Sandra Day O’Connor was similarly recognized just three years in her 25 years on the U.S. Supreme Court."
gex
@Litlebritdifrnt: Think John should expedite a picture posting of Max in memoriam. Poor guy. Poor Max’s family.
That One - Cain
@Litlebritdifrnt:
oh no! Our neighborhood is always full of pets, I’m very careful driving down the road for fear of hitting cats or something. I hope Max makes it through.. :(
edit: oh, he didn’t make it :( :( I’m so sorry..
sri
Ash
@joes527: Yes, you definitely heard wrong.
valdivia
@Litlebritdifrnt:
so sorry about Max.
Pixie
Litlebritdifrnt,
/hugs I am SO sorry to hear about this. I have 7 baby kitties too and I keep them all inside because people can’t drive and don’t care oftentimes if there are animals in the road. I know how you must be feeling right now, but know that your kitty loves you and that it was probably very quick for him. I wish there was something I could do to help. :( /hugs
kay
@joes527:
I understood your point. I liked the clip because he was genuinely pissed. I don’t think it was political discourse. I think it was private, and personal to him. Good for him. Buchanan doesn’t have dibs on all things Catholic.
I absolutely believe that pro-life people at Notre Dame should raise hell, just as antiwar people would (and should, and….did? I don’t remember) raise hell at a Bush speech.
The reason I think this "controversy" is more political than theological is that Republican House members and pundits are joining in, and won’t shut up about it. I call bullshit on that. It starts to look like regaining a crucial voting demographic, to me, anyway.
Obama knows how to do this, well. I suspect he’s been handling vaguely hostile receptions since he was 5 years old.
LD50
I’m really sorry. I lost my cat last November just before Thanksgiving, a totally sudden, no-warning, 5-in-the-morning stroke at age 13. Given that I’d taken care of him since he was a month-old backyard stray, he was totally bonded with me (he followed me around the house all the time) and he was by far the best pet I’d ever had, it was really fucking horrible. It took me about 2 months to be able to think about it without getting horribly sad. I still miss the hell out of him, tho. I might try and get a new one later this year.
demimondian
I’m glad to see O’Donnell yelling back at Buchanan — not because he was yelling, but because of WHAT he was yelling. He was calling Buchanan’s spew "nonsense".
That’s a huge step forward. Instead of trying to refute it, which is impossible, he just dismissed it. He accepted that it has MOVED OUT of the Overton window.
Can I please be thrilled about that?
asiangrrlMN
@Litlebritdifrnt: Oh, Litlebritdifrnt, I would be so gutted. I am getting teary-eyed just thinking about it. Go hug your other kitties tightly and let it out.
________________
As for dispassionate debate, I am for it approximately 80% of the time. 15% of the time, I want heated debate. The other 5%? I want to watch O’Donnell take down Buchanan and others of his ilk (Eric Cantor, anyone?). This fell into that last 5%.
P.S. Starbursts over Eugene Robinson’s voice.
gex
@demimondian: Yes. I will be more concerned when 1) centrists/left-center folks do this all the time like the right and 2) it becomes as unhinged as it is with the right.
No, it’s not an ideal approach to discourse. But what are you going to do when the other side almost always goes this route? Pat didn’t show any inclination to shut up and let the other guy speak. What else to do – let Pat have the entire platform? Don’t see how being polite in that manner accomplishes anything.
Laura W
@Tattoosydney:
If I give you two out of three, will you still be my friend?
Litlebritdifrnt
I am still crying, Max was a wonderful cat, he really was, and I miss him already. Why the fuck do people seem to feel the need to do 50 on a road that is clearly marked 25, there is no way in the world that you would hit a cat crossing the road if you were doing 25. Get a clue, there is a dead end at one end and a stop sign at the other, why the hell do you have to speed down that road. Thank you thank you for the kind words you have spoken, it really helps.
slappy white
The one Irish guy ate the others guys lunch but they both get paychecks signed from the same guy
jaime
"Every uborn child is born totally innocent"
Ummm…no, Catholics believe every child is born with original sin and will go to hell with murderers just the same unless baptised into the church.
Why are the most fervent believers the most ignorant in their beliefs?
asiangrrlMN
@Litlebritdifrnt: I don’t know if my other response is hung up in moderation, so I will re-type. I would be so gutted if this happen to me. I’m getting teary-eyed just thinking about it. Hug your other kitties and let it out.
—
@demimondian: I agree with your point in your first paragraph. It’s time someone called bullshit on the tired old rhetoric.
Alan
That was utterly religulous. I can’t believe the Catholic Church is still in existence. It’s a medieval relic.
Olly McPherson
It’s bullshit that the majority of alums and students oppose this. Absolute bullshit.
Great clip.
Laura W
@Litlebritdifrnt: It is horrible to lose a pet so suddenly and unexpectedly. Especially when it is due to the carelessness and recklessness of someone else. Breaks my heart. I am very sorry that your heart is breaking. Sucks.
JL
@Litlebritdifrnt: Max sounded like a wonderful pet. Please take care and remember that your blogging comrades are thinking about you. Hugs.
Pixie
Litlebritdifrnt, You are so right to be mad…people just speed down these roads and really don’t give a damn. God forbid someone actually GO THE SPEED LIMIT and maybe save a life in the process. Did you get the license plate of the jerko who hit little Max by any chance?? /big hugs I know how sad you feel right now, I’m right there with you. Each catlette is precious and it’s so hard for us to think of them being taken away from us like this, but sadly it does happen…just remember that because of you his life was happy and comfortable right up until the end. Your kitty loves you!
JL
The Catholic Church is clear that during childbirth, if there is a medical emergency the child comes first.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@** Atanarjuat **:
You are one crazy spoofass, compadre. Really. Nice work.
LBD, sorry to hear about your pet. I have had half a dozen or so four-leggers meet bad ends under the wheels of cars, at the jaws of other animals, including other peoples’ pets, etc. It just sucks. We get attached to the critters and then tragedy strikes and then it just really sucks. Condolences to you. Max will now be in cat heaven dining on a meal of fresh salmon and catnip.
Alex
While I agree with O’Donnell on the broad strokes, and think the opposition to Obama speaking on Notre Dame is all about residual anger over the loss/the D next to his name, he’s wrong on the specifics.
The church does prohibit capital punishment, but it doesn’t hold that prohibition at the same level as the one against abortion. Before he was Pope, Ratzinger/Benedict wrote a letter to American bishops and said they should withhold communion from pro-choice politicians, but not from politicians who support the death penalty or a war opposed by the Pope. And he said that Catholics could disagree about the death penalty or about the justness of a war, but not about abortion.
For the record, I’m not Catholic, and I think that position sucks as much as Buchanan’s — I’m just pointing this out for the sake of the discussion.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Laura
I am heartsick right now. I cannot even speak.
DanSmoot'sGhost
Is that a form of defenestration?
NonWonderDog
@Olly McPherson:
The majority of students don’t oppose it. That’s the lie. The majority of the students at Notre Dame are young people (duh) who voted for the president and want him to speak.
The majority of alumni oppose it, however.
From the AP, for fuck’s sake:
Jeffro
So. Sweet.
Shorter PB: "Anything I can seize upon to fuel my (insert reasonable speculation as to motivation here)-fueled upsettedness at Obama, I WILL SEIZE UPON, LOGIC AND REASON BE DAMNED, WAIT LET ME YELL A BIT MORE!"
Even more shorter PB: "4 whole decades – DECADES! – later, I am stuck in 1969! Me wantum binky!"
South of I-10
@Litlebritdfrnt: Oh no! I am so sorry about your kitty. I would be devastated.
Church Lady
My parents are Texas residents, devout Catholics and Dad graduated from ND in 1955. Both my parents greatly disliked Bush and a lot of that dislike was due to Texas’s death penalty express lane. As such, they were both vehemently opposed to Bush speaking at a ND commencement ceremony, just like they are now vehemently opposed to Obama speaking there due to his position on abortion.
As some of you know, my Dad is in the end stages of cancer. After his wife and kids and his church, the greatest love of his life is Notre Dame. My parents have donated to the annual alumni fund drive for more years than I can remember. Even when there wasn’t a whole lot of money to spare, ND always got something, and as their income rose, so did the amount of the donation. Dad even had a bequest to the school written into his will. I was shocked last week when Mom told me Daddy has changed his will to eliminate the bequest and that they had made the decision to stop donating to the annual fund drive. That’s how personally they took the school’s invitation to Obama. I just wonder how many other alumni, especially one’s on my parents generation, feel that strongly about it.
Ailuridae
@Jon H:
Arne is a pretty excellent guy. His parents (Starkey and Sue) are two of my heroes and unlike our President whose basketball abilities are often overblown in the press, Arne can flat out play.
A note on Tim Tuten lest anyone think this is a crazy "Chicago politics” story. Tim was a teacher for 17 years but since the late 90s has been the manager of media relations and outreach for CPS. He’ll be continuing in the same field for the US Department of Education i.e. he is more than qualified.
AhabTRuler
Britty: oh no! I am so sorry.
Just Some Fuckhead
Crazy people do crazy shit.
gex
@JL: Even if it is a girl? The only reason I can see for the baby > mother is that there’s such rampant disregard for women as equals by the Catholic church. So I can’t figure out how they resolve this dilemma when the baby is a girl. I guess they figure the baby isn’t a dirty whore who had sex like the mother.
Olly McPherson
NonWonderDog–I’m an alum (a relatively young one, which may skew my sample size), but I don’t believe the majority of alums oppose Obama speaking. I think the conservative Catholic alums are most likely to weigh in and make their voices heard on this, leading to the percentages shown in that AP article.
In any case, the idea that 313 letters to the Observer is somehow representative of alumni opinion is ludicrous, though. That wouldn’t pass the laugh test in any statistics class.
The big problem is that the media is weighing in on the opinion of the alumni and students without having any idea of what they’re talking about (Granted, I don’t have polls to back me up either, but I at least went there and know a lot of alums and people still attending. Still, like everyone else, what the fuck do I know?)
Notre Dame is an independent Catholic university. And we’re talking about the President of the United States here. For him to be unworthy to speak because of a political position shared by 40% of Americans (and Catholics) is ridiculous.
gallup.com/poll/117154/Catholics-Similar-Mainstream-Abortion-Stem-Cells.aspx
Ash Can
@Litlebritdifrnt: That’s horrible. I’m so sorry. My prayers are with you and all the members of your family, human and otherwise.
We have 25-MPH speed limits in our pet- and child-filled neighborhood too, and when I see assholes speeding through it I want to wring their goddamned necks. We neighborhood moms managed to finally bludgeon our stupid fucking alderman into getting speed bumps installed near the grade school. The screeching scrape of the underside of a speeding car on the top of one of those bad boys is music to my ears.
AhabTRuler
And as long as we are discussing the big dude himself.
"He said ‘Hi,’
I said ‘Hi,’
I was still clean!
I was still squeaky clean!"
AnneW
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I am so sorry about Max.
Comrade Darkness
@Litlebritdifrnt, if I were you I would write a letter to the road commission stating that due to excessive speeding on your dead end street you need a speed bump and state that if by such date they don’t put one in, you will.
(lots of ways to put one in, btw, a fat used circus rope works really well)
Terribly sorry for your loss. I live in terror of the cats getting out and wandering into the four-way outside that almost no one actually stops at.
Marc with a C
Wow. I didn’t know much about Pat Buchanan, but liked the fact that he was anti-war. Now having done research, I see that…
He admires Hitler despite recognizing his faults
Admires members of the SS and supported Reagan’s trip to their cemetery
Wants to abolish most taxes
Wants to get rid of HHS and the Dept. of Education
Is a traditionalist Catholic
Worries about the extinction of the white race
Thinks pornography should be banned
Wants to withdraw from most treaties and international organizations
Wants to use the military to patrol the boarder and build a wall
Wants to criminalize homosexuality
Wants to make English the only language of the United States (well, and Latin for mass)
Opposes the direct election of senators
Believes that the GOP and dems are indistinguishable
Believes pro-choice Catholics are heretical while supporting the death penalty himself
Supports school prayer
Doesn’t believe in evolution
Doesn’t think women are cut out for the business world
Is a confederate apologist.
And the list goes on. Wow.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Marc with a C: Thinks a woman consulting privately with her doctor to terminate her pregnancy is worse than the holocaust.
Also.
AhabTRuler
@Marc with a C: You didn’t know that? Patty B has bee described thus: the only difference between him and David Duke is that Duke had the guts to put the hood on. I think that a touch uncharitable, but only a touch.
The last honorable thing that he did was advise Nixon to resign, because if you have lost Buchanan you lost the middles circles of Hell.
Graham
Here I am confused again. I thought that Obama’s position on abortion was that he personally felt that it was immoral but that he did not think it was a good idea to criminalise it, and that it would be a better idea to minimise the circumstances in which abortion was felt to be necessary.
That is, that he is not pro-choice, he is anti-anti-choice.
Obama’s route to less abortion being increased living standards for poorer women generally, sex education in schools and freely available contraception.
But I suppose that’s enough to get him thrown out of Notre Dame anyway.
LD50
So why didn’t your dad cut off his donations to Notre Dame when Bush spoke there?
Just Some Fuckhead
Maybe if President Obama raped a few boys he’d be more welcome.
DougJ
Don’t get me started.
Marc with a C
@LD50
Because due to the fact that they lack souls, shooting, executing and torturing ragheads and minorities is way better than aborting a clump of cells so small that its invisible to the naked eye.
Mary
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I am so sorry about your little one, Max. Your heart must be broken. My thoughts are with you.
MazeDancer
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Losing a kitty is impossibly horrible and so near to unbearable. Enormous sympathies for such a terrible loss.
Adolphus
Did they continue to donate when a torturing, invading, and executing Bush spoke?
Do they watch ND football? What’s the team’s views of abortion and the death penalty? Do they just cheer for the anti-abortion quarterbacks and anti-death penalty running backs? Or they only care about honors from ND going to people who they aren’t making millions of dollars off of?
Just curious.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I’m stealing that, and taking credit for it. It’s the highest form of flattery. Well, the highest I can muster, anyway.
Joshua Norton
He’s "anti-war" because he didn’t want Congress to cater to the" Amen Corner" (his words) that supported Israel. There was nothing altruistic about his sentiments, he just wanted the Arabs left on their own to freely lob missiles back and forth.
Will
Lawrence is uncle to my friend Kevin. They have the same Irish temper, for sure. Lawrence’s dad was a bigtime civil rights attorney in Boston, who passed away about 2 months ago. Maybe his father’s passing inspired him for this segment…
DougJ
At 3:45, Buchanan says
Maybe it’s just the Guinness talking, as it often is with me, but that’s (a) such incredible bulshit and (b) such a perversion of the Jesus-based opposition to capital punishment that it makes me want to stone him to death.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I am sorry to hear of your loss and I wish you and yours the best. Love hurts, but the pain is always worth it.
Always.
Lihtox
O’Donnell was focused and stayed on-message, focusing on the question of Obama’s invitation rather than branching out into a more general abortion discussion. Still, I would like to see more pro-choice advocates challenge the frame that abortion kills human beings. Any discussion about the rights of women seem grossly irrelevant to someone who believes with complete conviction that an embryo is a full human being, as valuable as a child or an adult, as if someone said, "I’m going to euthanize my elderly mother because I have the right not to be burdened by the cost of caring for her." I don’t agree with "pro-lifer"s on this point, but I can certainly understand why abortion would upset them.
If we want to convince people, we need to challenge them on the humanity of an embryo: there’s no scriptural basis for it (some passages about "God knew me in my mother’s womb", but that could easily mean the third trimester), and the very notion of "life begins at conception" is only a couple hundred years old if that; it was "life begins at quickening" for the preceding millennia. Ask them why they aren’t protesting in vitro fertilization clinics, which waste embryos all the time. Make up posters of four-celled human embryos that ask the question "Does THIS deserve the same rights as you?" Maybe some will say yes, but it will at least bring the debate back to the central issue where we disagree (it’s certainly not about people being anti-life or anti-choice).
Mark Kraft
As Jesus said:
"He who is without sin, cast the first stone. . . Pat?! Drop the rock, Pat. Yeah, I *know* you disagree with me on this one, Pat. Want to take it up with my Dad?! Maybe you can try explaining to him how he’s wrong!"
gex
@Lihtox: I say go ahead and give fetuses full human rights. Then give the mother’s the right to evict their tenants. No more abortions – just evictions! Their views basically give a clump of cells MORE rights than they would grant a woman.
Comrade Luke
As a recovering Catholic I can say that this type of conversation goes on all the time.
Any Catholic that tries to follow the current teachings to the letter gets so twisted around trying to defend it that they eventually end up just yelling nonsense like "How about them apples?!" and constantly changing the subject to talk about the "murder of the innocents".
After a while you have to just throw your arms in the air and give up, because you can’t discuss it with them.
This was like watching some family holiday discussions, and is yielding the same result: I need a drink.
Wonk
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Litlebrit – I am so sorry to hear about Max.
As someone who once got rear-ended stopping for a squirrel crossing the road, I can’t comprehend how anyone could mow down a living creature with their car.
Love a little extra on your other kitties tonight, I know it won’t take the pain away but I hope they can make you feel a little better.
Lihtox
@gex: I’m pretty sure that if the eviction of a tenant would lead to that tenant’s inevitable death, then such eviction would be considered murder– so that argument’s not going to work, I’m afraid. The relationship between fetus and mother is unlike any (other) human relationship: the woman has complete responsibility for the fetus, and she can’t pass on that responsibility to anyone else until the fetus reaches viability.
I actually heard a Catholic priest make a pro-choice argument along those lines: because the woman has been given complete non-transferable responsibility for the fetus, then she is also given the complete non-transferable right to decide the fate of that fetus: even though it was a sin in his eyes, he did not have the right to prevent her from committing that sin (though he could offer his opinion). This was the argument that convinced me to become pro-choice, and remained my position for a long time, until I heard some anti-abortionist refer to a "one-celled human being", which I recognized as utter nonsense.
Whispers
"You are lying about what the Catholic position is".
It’s tough for Catholics like Buchanan. When he was young, the Catholic Church was quite happy with the death penalty for murderers. And then John XXIII had to go and change everything.
The fact is that today’s American Catholic population is far more liberal than Pat Buchanan, or indeed than the Catholic dogma. (As an ex-Catholic, I find the dissonance between the actuality of what Catholics believe and what they are told to believe to be bizarre, but hey, that’s what they think.)
The media, including conservatives like Buchanan, and many Catholic political figures like Dobson, like to pretend that Catholics are a bloc of socially conservative voters. But that hasn’t been true in a long time, and certainly not since JFK was a liberal Catholic president.
MarkusB
@Litlebritdifrnt: I’m really sorry to hear about Max. My condolences.
NLB
That was…. AWESOME. I really like Robert Gibbs, but after watching Lawrence O’Donnell lately, who has been on FIRE, I think he might be a good Press Secretary. Can’t you see him taking on Jackass Tapper?
Mike in NC
WTF? Could never understand why MSNBC would hire such a racist, sexist, homophobe pundit. He’s been a maggot since he worked for Nixon and Agnew. Nothing’s changed at all. His imbecile sister is just as bad…
scarshapedstar
Wow. Pat just got pwned.
Delia
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I’m so sorry about your cat. I’ve had cats most of my life and I know how attached we can get to them and how devastating it is to lose one, especially like this. My thoughts are with you.
Comrade Kevin
@Litlebritdifrnt: Oh, I’m really sorry to hear that. I love my cat buddy, and would be devastated.
Zuzu's Petals
@DougJ:
You’re right. In fact, one of the main reasons the Catholic church opposes capital punishment is because it takes away the possibility of redemption.
Mike D.
Helps when your name is O’Donnell. Just sayin’.
Jamey
Wow, O’Donnell crucified Buchannan!!
Sweet!
Jamey
Also: Does Pat approve of a governor condemning a convicted criminal to death?
So when’s he going to suggest that Notre Dame invite Pontius Pilate to speak?
Paul L.
Remember Lawrence O’Donnell’s "debate" with John O’Neill
Screaming Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar,Liar
over and over again.
Truly this is what passes as intellect for progressive hacks.
ChrisNBama
I have never witnessed such a through smackdown on cable teevee evah!
Pat was left arguing against a strawman. While he was lambasting O’Donnell for his inability to distinguish between the morality of killing an "innocent" versus the "guilty", he didn’t realize he was arguing against the position of the Pope (O’Donnell never revealed his opinions on the matter). The jujitsu of O’Donnell pointing this out while Buchanan was left stammering and reaching for water was priceless. Game. Set. Match!
Fulcanelli
Hey let’s fix the National Debt everybody! Eliminate the tax-exempt status of Churches! Imagine the tax revenue! Baptists and other protestant spin-offs, especially in the South and the Midwest have turned into nothing but Wingnut Madrassas anyway, and then there’s the pedophilia in the priesthood…
@jaime: The more adamant and fanatical the religious believer, the less they know about the actual, factual history of their religion.
@Litlebritdifrnt: I’m so sorry for your loss of Max. We lost our beloved dog Max last summer to cancer after a two year battle where we thought we had it beat and I cried like a baby for days. We just joined the ASPCA and now do a monthly donation.
I had a horrible experience in the second grade, I missed the school bus and my Mom had to give me a ride to school. She was driving along and we heard a "thump" from under her old VW Beetle and we stopped, but saw no victim. I got to school and one of my friends (whose house we drove by on the way) was heartbroken because his kitteh was killed by a passing car. I felt like somebody drop kicked me in the junk.
It so frickin’ sucks to lose a pet…
kay
@Paul L.:
I think inviting Randall Terry to lead the protest was a mistake.
Strategically speaking, I mean.
Kirk Spencer
@Litlebritdifrnt: Been there. Everything hurts. Here – maybe this will help start easing the pain.
passerby
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I now I’m coming late on this…
How upsetting. Is he gonna be ok?
I live on a 25mph street and a long time resident has recently obtained all but 6 signatures on a petition to get speed bumps for our street (must be 100% of residents).
I am hoping for the 100% but a few just won’t sign. Meanwhile, I’ve given up throwing dirty looks at the self-absorbed drivers as they race up and down the street, it’s not an effective tactic and only gives me a furrowed brow.
So sorry Litlebrit, hope Max can mend.
passerby
@Montysano:
Echo that. Also, I’d like to point out that Rachel had two state Govs on her show last night (or was it Wed night?).
ChrisB
Bob Woodward had a better smackdown of Buchanan on Morning Joe. Buchanan was trying to raise the possibility that Obama could "lose" the war in Iraq. Woodward ridiculed the notion, saying "this is why so many people are prisoners of Vietnam." Just completely shut Buchanan up.
As for the O’Donnell piece, I’m with those who praise O’Donnell for yelling as much as conservatives usually do but thought it was little more than a shoutfest.
passerby
@passerby:
I’m so sorry Litlebrit. Your sadness is shared.
Egilsson
@Paul L.:
John O’Neil is a liar. This has been demonstrated over and over again.
The BS he has said about Kerry is outrageous, along with the rest of those disgraceful swift-boaters.
It was really comical when people noted the hypocrisy of their claims that Kerry had not been under fire when those losers claimed medals for being under fire in the SAME incidents.
Lying liars.
passerby
@Church Lady:
That’s astounding Church Lady. That they would discontinue support based on this one issue is: Wow. Just wow.
I was raised Catholic and still haven’t gotten over the changes that were made with the implementation of Vatican II back in the 60s. There’s enough to object to right there.
As my sister pointed out, the most effective way that change is gonna come (to our society) is by the passing of the older generation that is so firmly indoctrinated in rigid belief systems and old ways.
Generally, the younger generations just aren’t paying any attention to the whole "ex cathedra" baloney. They don’t care if gays marry, they don’t care if white people marry black people, they don’t care if Obama speaks at ND, or ASU or whatever university. They somehow understand that these issues have no bearing on their lives or their futures and easily blow past them.
p.s. Positive waves of energy to your Dad and family.
jvill
I think my favorite part is that by the end Pat Buchanan said he supported the death penalty for mass murderers with malice aforethought.
How many of those Bush executions were mass murderers with malice aforethought?
What about throughout the country?
It’s pretty amazing how quickly Buchanan gave up ground on these supposedly well-considered and deeply held convictions on the death penalty — it went from being a sad but necessary instrument, to only usable in the most extreme of circumstances.
And yes, to echo many others, there are so many studies of innocents wrongly put to death in this country that its embarrassing for Buchanan to hide from that point. He’s a smart guy, I can only assume he knows he’s blowing smoke, and thus proves O’Donnell’s point — this is just more faux outrage from our right-wing friends with literally nothing to add to any current conversation on the problems that plague this country.
ChrisB
@Egilsson: Absolutely correct. I thought it was great when O’Donnell called O’Neil a liar throughout that exchange.
WereBear
@Litlebritdifrnt:
How absolutely horrible. I’m so sorry. It’s hard enough when they go of old age.
Remember that you made each other happy… in the long run, that’s all that counts.
And all that lasts.
Paul L.
@Egilsson:
Remember Christmas in Cambodia. seared in his memory.
Oh wait.
Still waiting for Kerry’s libel suit against the Swiftvets.
DonnaT
Notre Dame Graduates in my family.
12 years of Catholic school for me.
Respect and admire Obama.
I thought we in the United States allowed Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Thought and Freedom of Expression.
Isn’t that what we fight all these assinine "wars" for? To protect this freedom.
Buchanan is a fop.
D.
kay
@Paul L.:
I’m confident President Obama will be generous and gracious when he appears at Notre Dame.
I’m equally confident his political opponents, who have seized on his accepting the invitation as an opportunity to shame Catholic voters back into voting the GOP line, and publicly humiliate the President, will behave like the hacks they are.
Randall Terry almost never disappoints, if you happen to be pro-choice.
Jay in Oregon
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I lost a cat to illness very suddenly, and it cuts a hole in your life. I found myself crying on a street corner when our regular vet called me on my cellphone (my main contact number) to express his condolences on our loss.
Much sympathy and virtual hugs of comfort coming your way.
vachss.com/10/caruso.html
Egilsson
Hey Paul, you mean do I remember this?
You guys just can’t stop the lies.
Kerry *volunteered* to go to war, and he *killed* a man in service of his country – and then to have despicable liars (like you) spread lies about him still is just beyond the pale.
r€nato
@Whispers:
Didja catch one of Buchanan’s replies to O’Donnell constantly reminding him of the Church’s position on the death penalty?
"That’s not what they said in 1969!"
News flash for Pat Buchanan: that was 40 years ago. Nixon is no longer president. You don’t work in the White House any longer. And nobody but ignorant rightards and racists cares what you think about anything.
Zuzu's Petals
@Paul L.:
Well of course the fact that O’Neill WAS lying through his teeth is irrelevant, I’m sure.
Zuzu's Petals
@Paul L.:
Oh Paul L. Surely you can do better than linking to a wingnut opinion piece to support your claims. Aside from the fact it has nothing to do with John O’Neill or his appearance on Hardball, it is full of bad information and outright lies.
For example, Kerry never claimed he’d been sent on a "secret mission" to Cambodia on Christmas Eve 1968. According to the lengthy excerpts from his VN journal published in the Brinkley book (which Brinkley should have checked before misspeaking to a reporter) and in the Boston Globe and the Globe’s Kerry biography, he said he was on a routine patrol that extended up to the Cambodia border. At least two crewmembers verify this. Their boat, along with two PBRs, was ambushed – crewmembers verify this and George Elliott referred to it in his fitness report. He told the Boston Globe he thought he’d crossed the border then, either during the patrol or the ambush.
The only correction Kerry has ever made on the topic has been over a statement made in 1979, that he’d gone 5 miles over the border on that date. He said it was a later date that he went that distance over the border.
More? Well, aside from the fact that Muravchik takes Kerry’s 1986 floor speech out of context (look it up and see the full "seared into my memory" remark and how it appears)…he takes Kerry’s journal entry so completely out of context as to make it a lie. Here’s what Muravchik wrote:
First, none of the crewmen referenced here served with him in February 1969, which is when he claims to have been sent on at least one mission to Cambodia. Second, the mission described in the journal entry wasn’t Kerry’s final mission, which he’d know if he’d actually read the book. Finally, let’s look at what his journal actually said:
Bit of a difference, eh? He patrols the border and wonders if VC are hiding out on the other side , but Muravchik misrepresents it to make you to think he was just curious about the scenery. Another reason to do your own research before linking to a wingnut opinion piece.
Oh, and by the way, the guy is flat out lying about Kerry’s testimony to Congress. As to the incidents he cited in his testimony being "shown to be false," some were actually proven to be true by Army investigators (though their conclusions were covered up for 30+ years), and one can find numerous examples of the same sorts of incidents in the news reports of the time, historical accounts, and contemporaneous courts martial records. And none of the Winter Soldier participants have been shown to be "impostors who had stolen the identities of real GIs." Not a single one.
Still waiting for O’Neill’s libel suit against all those people who have called him a liar.
In the meantime, how about you show a single substantive claim SBVT made about Kerry’s military service that’s been proven true? A single one.
EIGRP
Imagine the outrage if Obama declined the invitation because of their abortion views.
Dudley Sharp
O’Donnell doesn’t have a clue:
2004, Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with guidance to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, stated succinctly, emphatically and unambiguously as follows: June, 2004 "Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia." catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1125
Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick: More Concerned with ‘Comfort’ than Christ?, Catholic Online, 7/11/2004
What Ardent Practicing Catholics Do (1)
By Fr. John De Celles, 9/1/2008
"Abortion and euthanasia are thus crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize. There is … a grave and clear obligation to oppose them … [I]t is therefore never licit to … "take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or vote for it."
In other words: it is always a grave or mortal sin for a politician to support abortion.
Now, some will want to say that these bishops-and I- are crossing the line from Religion into to politics. But it was the Speaker of the House (Nancy Pelosi) who started this. The bishops, and I, are not crossing into politics; she, and other pro-abortion Catholic politicians, regularly cross over into teaching theology and doctrine, And it’s our job to try clean up their mess.
But there’s something more than that here. On Sunday, before the whole nation, she claimed to be an "ardent, practicing Catholic." Imagine if someone came in here and said "I’m a mafia hit man and I’m proud of it." Or "I deal drugs to little children." Or "I think black people are animals and it’s okay to make them slaves, or at least keep them out of my children’s school."
Are these "ardent practicing Catholics"? No, they are not."
And neither is a person who ardently supports and votes to fund killing 1 to 1.5 million unborn babies every single year. Especially if that person is in a position of great power trying to get others to follow her. Someone, for example, like a Catholic Speaker of the House, or a Catholic candidate for Vice President of the United States, or a Catholic senior Senator who is stands as the leading icon his political party. Like the proud and unrepentant murderer or drug dealer, they are not ardent Catholics. They are, in very plain terms, very bad Catholics."
But the reason I say all this is not because I want to embarrass them or even correct them — they’re not even here. It’s because of you. Because back in the 1850’s when Catholic bishops, priests, and politicians were either silent or on the wrong side of the slavery debate, they risked not only their souls, but the souls of every other Catholic they influenced. I cannot do that, and I won’t do that.
Some would say, well Father, what about those people who support the war in Iraq, or the death penalty, or oppose undocumented aliens? Aren’t those just as important, and aren’t Catholic politicians who support those “bad Catholics” too?
Simple answer: no. Not one of those issues, or any other similar issues, except for the attack on traditional marriage is a matter of absolute intrinsic evil in itself. Not all wars are unjust — and good Catholics can disagree on facts and judgments. Same thing with the other issues: facts are debatable, as are solutions to problems."
"What Ardent Practicing Catholics Do: Correcting Pelosi", National Review Online, 9/1/2008 6:00AM
article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTY1MzAwOTc5MmViMzUyYzM5YmY3OWFkYzdkMzY0YzM=
Batocchio
Buchanan was deliberately deceptive on the student front. IIRC, per an early AP article, over 70% of the students supported Obama speaking, and 97% of seniors. This is a manufactured issue.
Buchanan also pretends that everyone ever executed is guilty, and O’Donnell is correct – Catholicism holds that capital punishment is immoral. Buchanan is less crazy than other Republicans on some issues, but he’s still disingenuous much of the time. I’m not a fan of the shout-fest, but it’s nice to see bullshit called.
Marc with a C
Dudley:
It’s nice to finally find someone who’s not afraid to take their marching orders lockstep from and organization which launched the crusades, executed heretics, and protected child molesters and even gave them access to more victims while covering for them.
But I will give them this. While individual Catholics may dissent on certain issues and have a plurality of opinions on such things as the Tridentine Mass and war as a concept, Pope JPII and BXVI both opposed the Iraq war, the former quite forcefully. You’d think that conservative Catholics– who pride themselves on arguing over who can bow lower to the authority and head of the church– would recognize that.
It’s nice to see that the Catholic church has such respect for the sanctity of human life that they are willing to spell out when that while all taking of human life is bad, there are certain pet issues from which there can be no dissent.
But whatever. It’s nice to see that the Catholic church considers launching wars and supporting the death penalty (which carries the possibility of innocent lives lost) as worthy of moral latitude, while at the same time considers the voluntary ending of one’s life following terminal illness or horrific injury something which all Catholics are duty-bound to oppose.
I’d like to say there are organizations out there that are more morally bankrupt, but I’m not sure how that can happen.