I emailed the reporter, Michael Calderone, who wrote the JournoList piece and asked him to respond to criticism that the existence of the list was hardly a surprise, per John’s earlier post. He was kind enough to respond:
Obviously, I’m aware there are other lists. But the point here is that JList serves as a far more comprehensive gathering of left-of-center opinion writers, mainstream reporters, bloggers, policy people, and academics than any I’ve come across before. As someone writing on the intersection of media and politics, I hoped to provide a window into how ideas–large and small–can be discussed daily in an informal, OTR way before making their way into the public conversation through blogs and print publications.
Considering that JList has never been profiled in two years, and includes hundreds of members-including several current and former Politico reporters-we thought it was worth covering. Not to mention, in the past couple weeks the issue of publishing from an OTR listserv came up regarding the Charles Freeman nomination. Given that, I fail to see why that’s such a terrible thing to want to note on a political news site.
I realize a lot of people here trash the Politico, and I don’t think it’s perfect, but they are generally much better about responding to readers than anywhere else I know of. Calderone, who runs a good blog on media there, deserves credit for responding here.
mcc
I fail to see why that’s such a terrible thing to want to note on a political news site.
Calderone’s description here of his article as a dispassionate "profile" seems kind of at odds with the actual article itself, which sets a tone early by describing the list as an "echo chamber" in the headline and has as its second sentence "Proof of a vast liberal media conspiracy?".
demkat620
@mcc: Exactly. It’s the same breathy kind of Mike Allen, hyper excited reporting that tries to turn every molehill into a mountain.
Sometimes a molehill, is just a molehill.
Dungheap
@mcc:
You missed the Cavuto Mark. Calderone is not saying it’s proof of a vast liberal media conspiracy. He’s just asking.
matt
On how this excuse squares up with the tone of the piece, hey, I guess this is just a tacit admission that the Politico sensationalizes every one of their stories. Not surprising, given the editorial policy memos that leaked out a few weeks back.
Comrade Stuck
@mcc:
We must all Bow to the Awesome Power OF teh
?
NonyNony
@mcc:
Exactly. If Calderone had written the piece he described in the snippet DougJ posted above, it would have been an interesting and insightful piece on how technology is used. Instead the piece that Calderone actually wrote is a piece of sensationalistic claptrap that only deserves to be mocked.
What interests me is whether Calderone actually THINKS he wrote the kind of piece he describes to DougJ above (in which case he’s slightly delusional) or if he knows the piece he wrote is actually worthless tabloid trash but wishes he’d been able to actually write the piece that he described to DougJ.
DougJ
I really don’t think you guys are being fair here.
Dungheap
@DougJ:
Really?
I wonder how such "perceptions" are created. Maybe questioning whether the group is proof of a vast left wing conspiracy in the second paragraph of the only news article written about the group contributes to this "perception."
Comrade Stuck
@DougJ:
Well then, if it was fair, it wouldn’t be much of a vast liberal conspiracy, would it????????
DougJ
Yes. Maybe some of the writing was a little sexed-up, but it didn’t assert anything that wasn’t true. I’m willing to knock it slightly for the tone, but I’d rather save my stores of outrage for something worse.
Balconesfault
Let’s see …
No spin there, eh?
Hmm – does Calderone bother to look into this claim by Goldfarb – that nothing "comparable" exists on the right? If he did, he didn’t show his work.
SpotWeld
It’s one thing to give a profile on an icubator of ideas, and probably a location where some folsk are jsut blowing off steams.
It’s wholly another to report on a smoky back room where the fate of the nation is decided by a shadowy illuminati.
We have Glenn Beck having a cable-ready meltdown out there, and I think it would be rahter nice if we could count on at least a few right-leaning media sources to maintain some sense of propotion.
And to chastize politico for failing to do that is a reasonable responce.
Comrade Stuck
@DougJ:
After getting a response from the MSM lite Politico, maybe you need a cigarette???
NonyNony
@DougJ:
Why? You think the piece isn’t sensationalistic? You think the piece that Calderone wrote actually matches the piece that he describes in his e-mail to you?
I give him props for being willing to respond to your e-mail (better than most journalists in that regard), but that’s about it. It’s a story about a semi-private mailing list that a group of liberal political wonks use as a discussion group. It barely qualifies as a human interest story ("People of the same political background and in the same line of work like to talk to each other online!"), and if the sensationalism had been stripped out of it it wouldn’t have even made the Politico.
(seen after my posting)
My stores of outrage are sufficiently large that I can expend a bit on this. After this weekend with the news about AIG, I suspect that there will be no problems replenishing my outrage stores in the near future.
But more to the point – I’m not outraged by this at all. I just think Calderone deserves a good mocking for the sensationalistic garbage he passed off here.
lutton
I don’t think anything is wrong with the list, nor I do I think there’s anything wrong with profiling such an extensive list. I think that readers may infer negative motivation depending on the source of such coverage, or its style.
I think there is also something interesting about journalists who write across a range formal and informal media. We tend to think of their blogs (or tweets) as more informal, and many also author other more formal articles in their publications. To hear many also participate in a forum that’s off the record is, to me, interesting, but not surprising, nor do I see anything nefarious about it.
Of course, the first I heard of such a thing was a while back with the ‘townhouse’ thing that Kos and other lib bloggers used for off the record communication
Dungheap
@DougJ:
I think it fair to knock the story a without being outraged by it. I understand that he’s just trying to capture the eyeballs and mindshare that make this a POLITICO story.
DougJ
I agree.
jl
There are gajillions of these kinds of discussion groups, and have been for many years. So, thanks to the author for the response, but I think the piece was juiced to create another fake liberal bogey-man scandal. Add some more biased editorial juicing for the headline and you get more slanted Politico product.
Another so-so Politico product, distorted and juiced to serve conservative political interests.
More Politico Fail.
bootlegger
Credit where credit’s due and all that. I get it DougJ. But credit is also do for claiming that his insinuation of a secretive elite liberal conspiracy is "just" basic reporting on the "on the intersection of media and politics". You’re correct that this isn’t worth getting our thongs in a wad, but the disingenuousness deserves some drive-by mocking.
TenguPhule
Starbursts!
smiley
There has to be a center-right version because Mika Brzzzzzski is subing for Tweety on Hardball and is echoing Rush’s talking points about AIG, the bailouts, and the damage to Obama that they’re causing. Matt Drudge (or is it Joe Scarborough) rules her world.
Added: BTW, Kings is on hulu in case you missed it like I did. Don’t know yet if I agree with John.
passerby
@DougJ:
I’ll give Calderone, or anyone for that matter, gold stars for being willing to engage in a civil discussion (instead of ignoring a counter opinion hoping it goes away). But, what part of "Birds of a feather flock together" does he not understand?
Unnecessary hooha is unnecessary hooha.
bootlegger
For more mockabilly, check out O’Really reading some porn he wrote.
guster
"There is nothing comparable on the right."
God knows the right doesn’t have any kind of message discipline.
bvac
You keep that powder dry, Doug
John Cole
Bullshit. Calderone knew what he was doing, and the wingnuts got the message he wanted.
BTW- I eagerly await the Politico profile of the members of the Red State Strike Force. That should be some fun reading.
Zandar
Wanting to note the existence of JournoList is one thing.
Treating it like it’s the evil, godless nexus of Communism and bloggery and implying that the list is nothing more than a star chamber for the formulation and dissemination of EVIL LIBERAL TALKING POINTS with that breathless, Politico.com flavor of "How long have you been beating your wife?" hatchet journalism is quite another.
AhabTRuler
Now that’s
changemedia analysis I can believe in!John Cole
And might I add that I am just so sick and tired of that scumbag Michael Goldfarb. He has accomplished approximately nothing in his life other than smearing people. And there Calderone is again, legitimizing him and giving him yet another forum to spread his poisonous viewpoints.
Also, Mickey Kaus dislikes the Jlist, which is more proof it is a good thing.
DougJ
You know, those Red State fuckers seem to have dropped me off their mailing list. That or the whole enterprise has gone dark.
Chuck Butcher
@DougJ:
Nah, the article sucks on the basis of implied conspiracy based on nothing, except maybe jealousy at not being included. Now I’ll openly admit that I’d kill to be invited, not that I have anything to contribute.
mcc
I really don’t think you guys are being fair here.
I think it’s perfectly fair to judge Calderone based on what he actually wrote and published rather than on his claimed intent as communicated privately to a blog.
I mean, I’m sure you’re right he acted responsibly and laudibly as a media figure by responding to queries. But this doesn’t tell us anything about whether he’s a good *journalist*.
Just Some Fuckhead
@DougJ: We know: "villagers".
Anastasius
Sorry Doug, but you don’t give credit for meeting the Palin standard.
"OK, he wrote a hack piece about how people talking with each other are possibly conspiring to bring on the dawn of socialist utopia but at least he responded to my email!"
Just Some Fuckhead
@Balconesfault:
Why can’t we just take Goldfarb’s word for it, JewHater?
DougJ
I do think Villagers dodge accountability much more, yes.
Comrade Stuck
Just was watching Ron Christi bring on the concentrated crazy on Hardball. Every answer to every question is either an outright lie or a strawman stuffed to it’s gills with alternate reality hogwash. You have to hand it to them, they would rather suffer eternal humiliation than give up a single solitary inch of the wingnut narrative.
Just Some Fuckhead
@DougJ: Ya know, if I wasn’t already able to figure out yer opinion on that particular group of folks, a direct response to me just now wouldn’t have made a ripple in my prefrontal cortex. :)
Just Some Fuckhead
@Comrade Stuck: After watching ’em spin for xx years, I still can’t figure out if they believe it themselves or not. I guess it doesn’t matter but it would still be nice if we could lift the curtain on bullshit once to see if they were spreading it lovingly all over themselves or handling it with gloves in packages marked "For Everyone Else Only"..
DougJ
Can’t they do better than that guy? The answer must be “no”, but I don’t see how it’s possible he keeps his job.
John Cole
Yeah, DougJ. Calderone was just doing some straight up reporting. No one will read it and get the wrong idea or use it to push a narrative.
Seriously, all it took to get into your pants was an email response from Calderone? He knew exactly what he was doing, knew exactly what buttons to push, and exactly how to turn this into something unseemly.
DougJ
Honestly, I like his blog a lot.
Chuck Butcher
@DougJ:
I’ve read his stuff several times, I must’ve gone there on all is bad days because it was pretty much this kind of garbage. No accounting for taste, some people like my blog, but i don’t make any pretences.
Tsulagi
More likely just Commander EE distracted thinking of dreamy rough men at the ready or preparations taking longer than expected for the Gay Wannabe Warrior parade and dance after. Tossup.
JL
@DougJ: At times he does write about bullshit to fill up the space. He is probably paid by the line. The article that he wrote today is bullshit but will be reported as real bullshit by Rush and the rest of the bullshit crowd. Then Calderone can be the king of the bullshit. Maybe he is trying to upstage Drudge.
JL
Doug welcome back to the states and please post some pictures and tell us about your trip.
DougJ
Thanks. I will.
bvac
Calderone is going to be on Lou Dobbs to "expose" this cabal of socialist intellectuals.
But he has a nice blog.
Church Lady
@DougJ: Neither you nor John responsed to my query on John’s previous post on the Calderone piece in Politico. Are either of you, or Tim, members of JournoList? If so, do you use stuff discussed there for your posts here? I’m just curious if the JournoList is pretty much limited to members of the MSM and bloggers employed by such, or if it reaches further out to random bloggers with a left slant.
DougJ
@Church Lady
It wouldn’t be much of an elite cabal if I was part of it, would it?
John Cole
@Church Lady: No. I am not on it. And if I were, I probably wouldn’t understand half the stuff they are talking about.
Nor would I share it publicly.
JL
Am I missing something? It sounds as though it is a bunch of like minded folks discussing issues that concern them. IMO it sounds like facebook plus two.
Nellcote
Calderone got a link from Drudge. Isn’t that all he really cares about?
JL
@bvac: If he is going to be on Dobb’s would you be so kind to report back. Dobb’s is blocked on my tv.
LV-426
You must have missed the part about them being liberals and that they are discussing liberal stuff.
bvac
@JL: Sorry, I can’t watch Dobbs while I’m eating dinner. If I catch the rerun or find a clip I’ll post it here.
Church Lady
I saw Calderone on Lou Dobbs. No fireworks. In fact, not much of anything. He was on for less than five minutes. Dobbs tried to make is sound like some kind cabal at work, but Calderone didn’t engage him on that. The only thing I can say with great assurance is that Michael Calderone is very unfortunate looking. The caricature that appears with the column doesn’t begin to do the ugly justice.
Thanks to DougJ and John for answering my question. Curiosity now abated. However, DougJ, you don’t do yourself justice. Both of you deserve to be on the listserv, if you wanted to be.
demkat620
@JL: Calderone appeared on TV with a chyron of
Left Wing Conspiracy?
Very nice. According to Dobbs, no administration in history has been in campaign mode as much as Obama’s. No administration in history has ever attacked people the way Obama has. "Certainly unprecedented"
And Mike tells us he put this out there for people to decide for themselves. Very nice.
TenguPhule
I don’t care about their customer service if their product is toxic waste.
JL
Thanks all!
bootlegger
See I knew all you Juice-drinkers do is worship your front pagers.
(channeling my inner Attanut)
Ohmmade
Doug is falling for the same access trick the MSM plays, and filling out all the proper paperwork to be part of the cyber-village.
Yuck!
Just Some Fuckhead
@bootlegger: I never get much further than thinking one or more of ’em needs a full-on bitch slap. Along with the toadier juicers. You know who you are.
Deborah
DougJ, my sense of the blog comments is less that anyone is outraged (except the conservatives at Ezra’s) and more that people are dissolving into giggles that the entire conservative blogosphere is apparently unacquainted with the "listserv." Which even my parents know about, and they’re Republicans who will never twitter anyone.
Brien Jackson
1. To correct a technical matter, Calderone almost certainly didn’t write the headline. Writers don’t generally headline their own pieces, editors do.
2. I think the overall article was fair enough. Going to Michael Goldfarb for an obvious cheap shot of a quote and to Mickey Kaus for the "spirit of the internet" thing (seriously, what the fuck does that even mean), but on the whole I thought it was a pretty decent article, outside of the headline, which Calderone didn’t write.
Nellcote
DougJ,
Please ask your new BFF Calderone if he wrote the headline.
thanks.
Brien Jackson
@Nellcote:
I think the fact that the headline is completely different in the print version is a pretty good indication he didn’t.
bootlegger
@Just Some Fuckhead: You channeling your inner Attanut too?
DougJ
They don’t write their own headlines at the Politico. I talked about this with Ben Smith once before.
Just Some Fuckhead
@bootlegger: Nope, my inner Wilfred.
Ohmmade
DougJ: "They don’t write their own headlines at the Politico. I talked about this with Ben Smith once before."
Translation: "Noone is responsible for anything they say. They’re all just decent, hardworking people."
Brien Jackson
That’s extremely unfair. Editors writing headlines is SOP at most media outlets. If you don’t know that, you’re just speaking out of ignorance. I’m no fan of Politico, I won’t even put links to their site on my blog, but there’s no excuse for making argument against them based on sheer ignorance or playing dumb.
Brien Jackson
That’s extremely unfair. Editors writing headlines is SOP at most media outlets. If you don’t know that, you’re just speaking out of ignorance. I’m no fan of Politico, I won’t even put links to their site on my blog, but there’s no excuse for making argument against them based on sheer ignorance or playing dumb.
Ohmmade
Besides, if Calderone wrote his own headline, it would’ve accurately described his article.
Oh wait, it did.
Hyperion
@Nellcote:
as usual i get here when the thread is dead.
but….DougJ got an email from Calderon.
Is that all he really cares about?
Hyperion
hmmm….maybe the thread wasn’t dead.
maybe today’s comments got eated.
itsbenj
ahh the endless rewards of having incredibly low expectations!
SpotWeld
Not to pile on here, and it may be unfair to judge an article by what others interpret it as…
But when when you write something and Conservapedia finds it to be worthy of mention on the front page, maybe some concern is warrented.
hilzoy
ChurchLady: I am on JournoList. It’s basically a listserv for policy wonks, wonky bloggers, and wonky journalists. No one coordinates anything; it’s just a place where you can ask a wonky question and watch a bunch of experts duke it out over the answers, and follow their links. Sometimes people post on stuff other people might have overlooked, as in: Hey, did you all see this cool new GAO report on rail security? Like that.
Comrade Stuck
@hilzoy:
A virtual sleeping pill.