Can you believe Wesley Clark said this about John McCain:
“Senator McCain probably wouldn’t get that much praise from this group. I can’t speak for them, but we all know that Senator McCain, as high-ranking as he is, his record in his last command I think was somewhat less than stellar.”
I am outraged. I can not believe anyone would say that. How dare Wesley Clark demean McCain’s service like that? Obama better distance himself from those remarks.
Oh, wait. I read that wrong. This is what was actually said, and it was said by McCain supporter Orson Swindle:
“General Clark probably wouldn’t get that much praise from this group. I can’t speak for them, but we all know that General Clark, as high-ranking as he is, his record in his last command I think was somewhat less than stellar.”
And, as we all know, Republicans questioning the service of Democrats is perfectly acceptable- I doubt this even makes the cable shows tonight, and I am certain that Andrea Mitchell will not be hyperventilating for hours on end. At some point I am going to internalize the notion that you can’t be patriotic unless you are a Republican, and unless your military service is used to elect Republicans, your opinions don’t matter. Right now, though, I just don’t understand it.
myiq2xu
I don’t know, this Orson guy sounds like a fraud to me.
Cols714
This has been going on for years. Anything the Democrats say gets blown out of proportion and context. Remember when John Kerry fucked up a joke? Of course you do, it was on cable 24/7. Now you have a Republican doing what the media said the Democrats did, devaluing someone’s military service. But what will you hear? Crickets.
This isn’t the first time, nor will it be the last, especially this election season.
El Cid
John Cole is learning.
Military service makes Republicans into heroes who ought to be not just elected but retroactively installed into power.
Military service makes Democrats into callous fake warriors who shouldn’t dare mention their service because it just shows how fake and meaningless their commitment to America is; unless of course if they are appearing on TV to talk about how only Republicans and right wing hawk policies can KeepUsSafe.
Salty Party Snax
Of course, we all know just how tall John McCain stood for John Kerry when his military service record was questioned by Bush surrogates.
So what is the problem here?
crack
Countdown to ThymeZone saying Obama should put out a statement supporting Orson Swindle.
Punchy
Now McCane is blasting Obama over remarks Senator Webb said. Professional crybabies. They’re literally acting like Democrats.
FWIW, they should do this daily. Haul one military guy out after another to question if McCane’s POW status is reason enough to make him Preznit. After the 392nd McCane denounciation, maybe McCane will finally lose it and go all Shawn Chacon on a reporter.
Cols714
For the love, Republicans gave out bandaids to mock John Kerry’s purple heart awards (did I get that right). I had forgotten this. Yet the media has decided that Democrats hate the military.
Honestly, I used to blame Gore and Kerry for losing their elections. But I now blame the media. If we had a fair media, there’d be no way either of those guys would have lost.
It’s the media. Not the candidates that deserve the blame. There is nothing Democrats can do to stop this. Good thing the electorate hates the Republicans for this election cycle.
mrmobi
Well, I dont’ know if he’s a fraud, but that last name! Shouldn’t political campaign operatives be required to have last names like “Forthright?” What’s next, communications director Jonathon Ratfucker?
John, I know you don’t like Wesley Clark (for reasons unclear to me, but seems to have to do with Michael Moore or a certain unnamed anti-war mother who protested outside of Bush’s ranch.) That aside, I’m now beginning to believe that all this kerfluffle was deliberately orchestrated by the Obama campaign. McCain is now venting at remarks made by Webb. Is this part of a strategy to keep the guy sounding off in the hopes of a major gaffe? (to which he is quite prone)
However, you are correct, this latest actual smear of Clark will be off the radar for Andrea Mitchell and Mika B. Mika B., especially is totally pushing the NBC line these days, complete with “scowls” whenever someone suggest St. McCain is less than perfect.
BFR
I just want to know what councilman Les Whinen has to say about this.
Jay
Friends, countrymen, I give you Wilber the Cat:
http://tinyurl.com/65g44v
Also, the name “Orson Swindle” seems oddly appropriate in this current dustup.
Tsulagi
Why shouldn’t he? It works. He got him to step on Clark on demand.
DragonScholar
I have to wonder how our troops feel about military service being mocked, questioned, and misused, and watching legitimate questions be turned into fake attacks.
Then I remember they’re busy on their third tours of duty, trying to keep their lives together, and battling a callous medical system. So I figure they’re a bit busy to analyze this.
4tehlulz
I wonder if anyone will point out that Clark leads McCain in wars won, 1 to 0.
Just sayin’, that’s kind of an important metric in a military pissing contest.
Zifnab
We’re judging Generals on their war records now? ORLY? Someone should tell every general currently serving in Iraq right away that their political fortunes in the eyes of the Republican Party are totally on the line if they don’t shape up. *laughs*
But seriously, what trillion dollar cluster fuck military boondoggle was Wesley Clark part of that I never got to hear about?
Zifnab
As a Houstonian, and an Astros fan, I find your statement totally awesome.
cyntax
Yes, but turning the other cheek to Republican attacks is the shrewd thing to do–it’ll win that vital center-thingy over any month now.
myiq2xu
When Obama endorses Bush’s decision to launch preemptive nuclear strikes on Iran, TZ will claim it was a shrewd political move.
Wilfred
Goddammit. What the fuck happened to standing up to loudmouth bullies? Wes Clark is, he stood by everything he said.
The way to deal with McBlowhard is to stand to your guns and not back down.
myiq2xu
Tuzla?
crack
Silly Wilfred, what you do is label your base as loud mouth bullies and throw them under the bus. That is how the Democrats won all those elections from 98 to 04.
cleek
GOP = gaggle of pussies
Dreggas
Well bosnia wasn’t a trillion dollar clusterfuck despite the republican panty wetting over it. Funny….it was the dem who got us in and out quickly…
w vincentz
I must be suffering a memory lapse…
Who was the guy that gave the North Vietnamese the flight paths of the US aircraft on their bombing runs so they could reposition their anti-aircraft weapons?
Who was the guy that dissed the peasant that jumped into a Hanoi lake to save his broken ass after he had been shot down trying to bomb the peasant and his family?
Who was the guy that repeatedly gave propaganda out on the NV radio?
Who IS this “war hero”?
I honestly can’t remember.
JL
Why oh why isn’t MSNBC talking about the McCain’s camp latest whine on Jim Webb. Is it because they realize most sane Amerians would say what?? This might help Obama after all because the McCain camp seems to be overreaching.
Delia
At this point McCain is coming across as a hysterical drama queen who can’t stand to have anyone ask any questions about his story without his head exploding.
Or am I missing something about Real Men?
Tsulagi
Yep, it’s that Bob Shrum strategery Dems are famous for. Playing not to lose by caving is always a sure winner.
crack
On the whole what should Obama do on any given thing question, I’d like to say that I think John Cole should be his target. I’m not kidding, JC is a former Republican sick of what Republicans have become. If Obama chooses policies that don’t alienate his base and JC can get behind then I think he can win big. That is my biggest problem with his FISA cave, he’s not going to gain anything. People like JC aren’t for it, only the Bush dead enders are and there is no way Obama is getting their votes. Obama should run all his policy decision by JC, and if JC considers them too close to Bush Obama should run from them. Any proposal JC, twice a Bush voter, considers too close to Bush will definitely alienate people who never thought much of Bush. There is no upside to that, it will just make people stay home.
malraux
What I love about the Republican smear and outrage machines is that the smear apparatus sets the beyond the pale standard and then the outrage machine blames the other side for doing something that is only slightly similar. In this case, swiftboating. But similarly, an impeachment of the president over a blowjob was the overreach of the smear machine, while only the DFH dare to say that maybe Bush should be impeached.
dorkboy
Wrap your heads around this one…
If Obama names Colin Powell as his Veep, you know they’ll use these gimmicks to “discredit” him. That would be real “through the looking glass”, mind-bending stuff.
Delia
See, here’s the thing about hysterical male drama queens like McCain. I know this because my ex used to act this way. They rant and cuss and bully when you challenge them. But it’s all drama designed to get their way because they’re deathly afraid of being found out. If you just hold your ground and act like a grown-up, they eventually collapse into the emotional babies they really are. So if anybody will actually stand up to old McMaverick and not fall for his bullshit, we can all get past this nonsense.
4tehlulz
>>If Obama names Colin Powell as his Veep
Other than for megalulz, there is absolutely no reason to do this. Just no.
Twisted Martini
Orson Swindle also publishes the best college football blog on the planet, Every Day Should Be Saturday. But he’s a Florida bigot, so what do you expect?
CapMidnight
Even Mork isn’t returning his calls.
And you military guys! Stop bickering! What will the War Czar think?!
(Has anyone heard from the War Czar lately? I hope he’s okay.)
Chuck Butcher
Pick your fights intelligently and then speak clearly and carefully – works wonders. Clark made a 1/2 slip by being a bit flip about being shot down… You can’t do it.
Make it about judgement and policy, don’t go there. It’s a win, why fuck around with the POW issue. Vietnam doesn’t disqualify McCain, leave it the fuck alone, you just give him the opportunity to wave his busted up self at you and say, “see what I did for you”
Grover Cleveland
Zifnab, re: shawn chacon and the astros
I wish there was a video of that somewhere. I was out of town when that happened and missed what had to be some great local talk radio on that.
Now, it would be great if McCain went Jon Chaney on the reporter.
rawshark
Do you not understand it or just don’t believe you also used to feel the same way?
Its amazing how the world looks when you actually let yourself see it. (Not a diss, I’m a bad writer, keep that in mind)
libarbarian
I could torture you into handing over your mother for gang-rape.
nightjar
Poor Wes Clark, Obama threw him under the bus and now the wingnuts are having their way with him. LOL
First, Wes Clark is a big boy and can take care of himself. A former 4 STar General and combat decorated soldier. He’s not running for anything and is not on Obama’s payroll. He is doing his part for the Dem cause by challenging the very core of the Mccain campaign, and I would be highly surprised if the Obama camp wasn’t in on it. He’s acting similar to the VP role of attack dog, where the potus candidate steers clear. Nothing unusual about this story.
Steve V
The GOP definition of “attacking someone’s service” is of course intolerably broad, and I like the idea of Clark and Webb pecking away at him, but what really has me seething is the fact that McCain takes the stage to whine about it all locked in arms with a frigging swift boater! The optics of this should be absolutely terrible for McCain, but the media is working overtime to puff his ass.
cyntax
Yeah, there is a little military tradition that I’m hoping Obama internalizes (and frankly until the last couple weeks, I thought he had). It’s the Infantry motto: “Follow me,” as in lead from the front.
Here’s Chris Bowers (from Open Left) on why discrediting Clark is good for the rightwingers:
Link to votevets petition here. And for y’all that aren’t vets, it’s for regular, upstanding citizens too, so get hot.
Incertus
Reminds me a bit of Marc Antony. “John McCain is an honorable man.”
Stevenovitch
Last night on the news they had the whole Wes Clark thing and they played the quote directly. “Riding in a jet and getting shot down doesn’t qualify you for president.” They then proceeded to express the news equivalent of outrage… and nobody laughed?
Are we really so far gone that “serious” people can be taken seriously while arguing that getting shot down does in fact qualify you to be president?
How many pilots were shot down in Viet Nam anyway? Are they all qualified to be President? More so than the ones that weren’t shot down? If so, why? Bleh…
Punchy
I think BaLak Obama should hire Cole as a consultant. Think of it: he gets some military cred/advice by a guy who actually used Army vehicles without crashing them, he gets insight on how to appeal to the above-all-else-important Appalachia voters (I suspect Barry will need to pimp either coal, meth, or the relative unimportance of teeth and/or plumbing), while giving a kinda guy-to-guy jungle fever/redneck-finds-Scary-Negro-acceptable flavor to the Eastern seaboard voters.
A win-win. Of course, that’ll force John to reduce his discussions on kitten skull-fucking on this blog, but that’s OK.
4tehlulz
JC 4 VP
RSA
…which involved asking McCain to “calm down” about the military stuff. Longer Webb: “Calm down, Grandpa, or you’ll have another ‘attack’. Isn’t it time for your nap?”
Stevenovitch
You should re-watch the Wes Clark interview. According to the media, it’s the actual crashing of the vehicle that qualifies you.
Zifnab
Beat me to it.
crw
Hmm. This just in from Ben Smith. Obama isn’t defending Clark, but he did just zing the media:
(Emphasis mine)
Shorter Obama: why the fuck are you obsessing over this bullshit?
Gus
Well done.
4tehlulz
I fully support trolling the media. The best part is that they have no choice but to pay attention to him.
nightjar
Yea, he didn’t phrase that well at all. I suspect that since Clark had previously been shopping this line of attack, that Schiefer knew as much and found a way to drop it on Clark. He should have been ready and not been so short, and flip about MCcain being shot down.
Joshua Norton
Judgment is important, and Senator McCain has switched his stance on so many of his former policies one has to wonder if he himself really knows what he stands for anymore. Any time anyone questions his judgment or abilities he accuses them of “dirty politics”. His surrogates accuse them of not respecting his military record. If you can’t question a person’s ability then we will end up with another George W. Bush……Heaven forfend.
joe
Um, yeah, that “less than stellar” record includes the last military victory the United States accomplished.
Wilfred
Right, don’t question McCain. So on October 20th, when Bush attacks Iran and all hell breaks loose and the NATION IS AT WAR then we’ll be able to question his qualifications.
He who backs off now will not be allowed to speak when the country is FACING ITS DARKEST HOUR and needs A REAL AMERICAN HERO.
Just Some Fuckhead
Not quite.. Scheiffer said “riding” in a plane so the actual qualification for Presidency is derived from *being in a crash* (since “crashing of the vehicle” necessarily implies McCain was piloting it.)
Just Some Fuckhead
Damn ads. For a minute I thought PajamasMedia was serving grilled fish fillets..
bebop
TV news except for Olbermann and Abrams somewhat is so enamored and in the tank for McCain
Dennis - SGMM
Republicans: “Look what they’re saying about a hero!”
The Rest of America: “Go ahead and gas up the car, honey. The kids really like mac and cheese. They won’t mind eating it the other three days of the week.”
Face
Shorter Punchy: Getting elected is like getting laid. You will say anything and everything it takes to get her naked and in bed, and only after the deed will you dare to tell that, actually, you’re not a doctor, and oh by the way, does she know anyone who can get you a job and a way out of your parent’s basement?
Krista
Good point. Unfortunately, the media has become so goddamn self-important that they’ll just become harder on Obama for this. They’re so used to the mutual arselicking of the last 8 years that when a Dem calls them on their shameful lack of journalistic skills, the shrieks of fury will be ear-shattering.
“Ohioans will be kept up at night by what we TELL them should keep them up at night!”
TR
Hyperventilating is a polite term. Throwing a fucking hissyfit is more accurate.
She had a segment with Clark today. She actually claimed that the MoveOn.org ad with the mom and the baby, the one that takes on John McCain for the “hundred years” comment, was somehow part of an evil leftist plot to denigrate Saint McCain’s service in Vietnam.
No, really. What the everloving fuck?
nightjar
BREAKING NEWS — McCain Camp’s head officially explodes. OMG. It’s a conspiracy, they’re all out to get me MCcain screams. Cool cat war hero loses cool. Now just a grouchy old conspiracy nut.
Ed Drone
Well, McPain managed to crash several multi-million-dollar planes in his “stellar” career. He was a “hot shot” for sure. You know, with his fairly well-known penchant for wine, wimmin and
songmore wimmin, it’s a wonder he doesn’t have a string of DUIs to hide, too.If someone went looking for those….
Ah, well, the uproar over his defaulting on property taxes on one of his (wife’s) many houses should be reaching a crescendo soon, right?
[Cue crickets]
Sigh
You know, we should make a bigger deal of the media treatment of the candidates instead of attacking the opposing candidate. It might get more press.
[Cue more crickets]
Sigh
Ed
Just Some Fuckhead
Fixt.
Incertus
In the meantime, the White House is declaring more victory in Iraq, I guess to let us move forward into victory in Iran.
BFR
Don’t see much in the way of commenters noting that Clark had made more or less the same point a week or two ago and went sorta unnoticed. I think this is calculated – one of the primary roles he can play in this campaign is to lead the attacks on McCain’s biography since he’s really the only one who can do so.
I think this was a calculated move – he said it once, no one responded. I believe that what we’re seeing is the intended effect – it was designed to elicit a right-wing freakout.
I don’t know why you’d want to do this but I just don’t see how this can possibly be an accident.
Wilfred
I’d like to see candidates of both parties take it directly to journalists themselves and accuse them of partisanship to their faces. Why pretend otherwise?
Delia is right, and Webb is just the guy to call them on their collective vapors. They are protesting way too much and have just tipped their hand, I reckon.
mrmobi
I watched the Face the Nation piece, and I disagree. He wasn’t being flip, he was challenging the idea that being a prisoner of war doesn’t necessarily rise to the level of being a qualification to be POTUS, and he’s spot-on.
That was a nice takedown of the media by Obama, btw.
I thought someone would get to this eventually. You’re not suffering a memory lapse, but a lapse in judgement. John McCain was tortured for several years. Don’t you get that? His captors took pleasure in beating his already broken arms. He refused release until his comrades were also released. I despise McCain for his policies and his lack of conviction, but I honor his outstanding and heroic service.
Now, maybe you think you could stand up to torture and be a proud American and not give any information to the enemy. Some have. Most have not. This does not diminish their service in any way.
To their credit, the Obama campaign and their surrogates have not gone near this stuff, and they shouldn’t, because McCain performed heroically, by anyone’s definition.
Do you really want to belong to a political party which stoops to the same level the Republicans did in denigrating Kerry’s service?
Stevenovitch
Since we seem to be in the business of comparing the honor of military service, can someone please explain to me how anyone came up with the conclusion that Clark’s service record is inferior to McCain’s? Or how Kosovo could be considered anything other than a stellar success when compared with the current situation?
I really really don’t want to believe these people just pull random shit out of their ass… there has to be some attempt at logic here.
mrmobi
Well, let’s see, he was a Rhodes Scholar and Supreme Commander of Allied Forces and led during a war which we won, which wasn’t for oil, but to rescue people from genocide. Sounds inferior to me. Did I mention there wasn’t any oil?
The big problem that the Party of Torture has with Wesley Clark is that he didn’t hire enough private contractors during the war, and there weren’t enough no-bid contracts.
Democrats don’t understand that they need to make wars more profitable for the private sector, even if that extends to actually harming the troops through negligence. It’s just a cost of doing business to them.
Svensker
Gen. Clark oversaw a successful military operation in Kosovo. (One with which I vehemently disagreed, but that’s neither here nor there.) Nevertheless, the Tighty Righties think he’s a failure. Some pickings from various rw posts today:
See? So Clark has no credentials, so insulting his military service is good. Besides, no real generals are Democraps.
It really is time to move to the island.
Fledermaus
Easy. McCain is a Republican. Iraq is a Republican war (with a assist from dems in need of a spine).
T. R. Phillips
Why does no one mention the “Manchurian Candidate” aspect of McCain’s imprisonment. It would be hard to prove that he wasn’t drugged and hypnotized repeatedly by the North Vietnamese/Russians. They had some pretty sophisticated techniques of post-hypnotic suggestion, if the CIA is to be believed. Does McCain wake up at 2:00 AM whispering, “Push the red button, push the red button. . .”?
It wouldn’t do any good for journalists to ask McCain if he was brainwashed by the North Vietnamese, because he would have been programmed not to remember it.
LanceThruster
Isn’t it the Rethuglicans who paraded a bevy of military experts on the take who were assigned to push the war in the media? Seems to me they even had a few who had bogus credentials to boot.
Gen. Clark needs to buy a bus that says “The Straight Talk Express” (gonna be one cheap come November) because he really says it all.
Sock Puppet of the Great Satan
“I can’t speak for them, but we all know that General Clark, as high-ranking as he is, his record in his last command I think was somewhat less than stellar.”
That’d be winning a war in a few months with no U.S. casualties. Yup, I can see how a GOPer would see that as a failure.
jen hutchin
Gen Clark is right about McCain and right about the war. Republicans can bloviate all they want–McCain is losing by a landslide.
pinola
I used to like Mika, probably because Scarborough is such a total dick and he was always interrupting her and shamelessly dumping on her because he had to get some ‘brilliant’ totally WRONG observation in or some lead ballon pathetic attempt at a joke – I was also just so glad when he was gone all those weeks because I was actually able to watch it. But this is sleazy.
pinola
What Senator said ‘Clark should be cut loose?’ next on KO
pinola
pearl-clutching over Webb’s comments
this.is.insane
pass.the.revolver.NRA
Dave_Violence
I’ll tell you what pissed of this right-winger: some Al Gore flunkie calling Bob Kerry a cripple. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_pwwi/is_200002/ai_mark07002113
Jess
To be fair, he did have a lot of practice…
Neo
“inartful” now ranks up there with “inoperative”
What could be next ?
Bert Chadick
While I’m not a believer in luck, as such, McCain has got to be considered one profoundly unlucky guy. He came very close to sinking the USS Forrestal and killing 130 sailors in an accident with a missile while awaiting on deck. After being cleared of culpability, he was shot down in short order. Spending years being tortured cannot be thought of a lucky turn, and neither was his membership in the Keating Five during the biggest scandal to that date, the S&L debacle. Now he has the Republican nomination for president in a year when Jeezus his-own-self couldn’t get elected as a Republican. Like I said, profoundly unlucky.
mumu
well, McCain at least found that zombie-looking wife with millions of dollars in her trust fund, so that might offset all that bad luck at the end of the day.
Bob UK
Dont you guys over there have differing stanced News Stations – like one pro left / one pro right ? Or a truly Nuetral Channel ?
It seems from reading around that all the stations are currently nuzzling McCains arse and each is promoted as non-bias?
I’m sure I’m probably as blind to BBC or CH4’s news bias though I do seem to see pos / neg on each stance, and 2 opposing views sitting on a couch together arguing.
How comes you seem to get 3 people all Totally biased, just sitting around agreeing with eachother with big smiles tearing the Dems to pieces ??
Original Lee
Quite a few men were shot down over Vietnam (including one of my cousins). Quite a few men were tortured. But McCain is probably the only one of that group who married someone rich enough to support his ambition to be POTUS. Don’t you know you get experience points for gold as well as for combat?
The Mantis
Only a Republican would deem the management of the Kosovo war (how many US casualties?) by the valedictorian of West Point as “somewhat less than stellar.” If that was somewhat less than stellar, I’d hate to hear how the Iraq War would be described…