Rules Committee
If Michigan tries this crap again in 2012, I suggest that not only are their delegates not seated, but we move to kick them from the United States. I would prefer if we just give Florida to Cuba.
Also, I would like to thank the Clinton campaign for their bullshit and duplicity in this whole affair.
*** Update ***
A preview of what we can expect from the Clinton protestors:
*** Update #2 ***
The only thing I disagree with regarding this HuffPo piece is that I don’t think it matters what happens at the RBC. Hillary Clinton is not quitting. She is pushing to the convention, and if she does not get the nomination, she is running again in 2012, and she will spend the remainder of the election cycle making her voters think she has been shafted, raising questions about Obama’s legitimacy, fomenting discontent, so that she makes sure her avenue to run in 2012 is clear.
This is all about the Clintons. This isn’t about anything else. Not sure why people have not figured that out yet.
*** Update #3 ***
It looks like Florida is a done deal at half a vote- this looked like theatre. Michigan will be the big fight.
*** Update #4 ***
Ickes is setting the stage to allow Clinton to beg/borrow/steal “uncommitted” delegates.
The election shouldn’t count. Period.
Quiddity
Then Canadian-born Jennifer Granholm can become president – of Michigan!
Bobzim
Anything other than accepting them or not as the votes are, is complete manipulation and will only feed rhetoric that the Dem nominee is illegitimate.
Shabbazz
For some reason, I find this photo to be HILarious.
Cassidy
I think the Hillary Campaign’s stance is funny:
“All delegates must be seated….only if it helps me.”
Adam
Fuck Bill Nelson, blaming the Republicans for moving the election. The Florida Dems actually joked about it on the record and now he has the nerve to talk about how it’s the national party’s fault. Here’s the solution: reinstate Florida’s elected delegates and take away all their superdelegates. :(
Adam
yawwwwwnnn Bill Nelson
Andrew
Oh jesus h. fucking christ. Bill Nelson is telling nonsensical anecdotes about little old ladies. That’s a fucking fantastic way to decide political party policy.
Andrew
BTW, we are all huge nerds, watching political coverage of a committee meeting on Saturday morning.
smiley
“What Howard Dean Is Doing Now At the DNC is Worse Than Slavery”
Protester said that according to DHinMI over at the GOS. Sheesh.
Justin
Hopefully, it won’t matter when Michigan and Florida hold their primaries in 2012 since Obama will be the incumbent, and the primaries will be of little concern.
smiley
Bill Nelson seems pissed that anyone would dare present the other side.
Incertus
Bill Nelson’s greatest accomplishment in Florida politics in the last six years has been beating Katherine Harris for his Senate seat. He can fuck himself for all I care. He’s an empty suit, and that’s with giving the suit IQ points for not falling apart from sheer boredom.
4tehlulz
At least it’s not as bad as Auschwitz.
Wilfred
To the tune of Lonely People:
This is for all of her supporters
Thinking that they got fucked around
Don’t give up until you drink from the Dixie cup
And let that Koolaid lay you down
This is for all those mother-fuckers
Thinking that they’re about to die
Don’t give up until you drink from the Dixie cup
You never know until you try
Well, you’re on your way
Yes, we’re here to stay
Well, you’re on the way back home (hit it)
This is for all you gasbag whiners
Thinking that life is just a lie
Don’t give up until you drink from the Dixie cup
You never know until you try
nightjar
Nelson is a putz.
I say we run all the people out of Florida, make it a National Wildlife Preserve, and make Bill Nelson Senator of Alligators and the fishes.
bostondreams
Dude, I’ve been trying to move back to New England for eight years, but my wife likes this damn state too much. Since she makes the money, well, yes dear.
Your plan would mean we would HAVE to leave! Woohoo! Here’s to good schools!
sunny
Two points, first is OT. Obama has promised to scrutinize all laws and Executive Orders passed by the Republican Administration for Constitutionality and overturned if they don’t pass muster. He should deserves the Presidency just on that promise alone
Reuters Blog
On topic. A writer at Huffingtonpost posits that the whole strategy of the Clinton’s at the RBC is a trap. He thinks she wants half-delegations to be seated so she has a rationale to appeal it all the way to the Convention.
HuffPo
stevie314159
Let’s stop buying cars made in Michigan!
Oops, we already have stopped.
smiley
Lest we forget, Nelson is a charter member of “The Family” of which Clinton is also a member.
sunny
egads, preview is my friend. That should be:
>overturn them if they don’t pass musterHe deserves the PresidencyAndrew Says:
BTW, we are all huge nerds, watching political coverage of a committee meeting on Saturday morning.
I embrace my nerdity!
smiley
sunny,
I read that HuffPo piece this morning. Pretty interesting argument. However, the first presenter this morning made it pretty clear that the charter gives the rules committee the right, and maybe even an obligation, to strip the delegation of half its delegates (or seat the whole delegation but with half votes each). If that’s true, it would be pretty hard to appeal.
sunny
smiley,
To the Clinton’s, it doesn’t matter what the RBC has the right or the obligation to do. What matters is what they can make the ruling by the RBC appear to be. If they do not get exactly what they want, they can with no effort at all convince their rabid supporters they have been shafted, thus giving them momentum on to the convention.
It is looking more and more like Clinton is out to destroy the party’s chances in November.
I guess we’ll know soon enough.
(what happened to the quote in my last post? I was responding to Andrew, if that wasn’t clear :) )
Dug Jay
GO, Hillary! Everybody really, really LOVES you….especially at this blog.
slag
I’m already on record wanting to give Florida back to Spain. But I’m willing to compromise.
bostondreams
I respectfully disagree. If she sabotages this election, she would have to run as something other than a Democrat. No way in hell she could have party support in 2012.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Ickes pwned!
John S.
Ditto.
The guy is a chump, and only a slighter better alternative to Mel Martinez.
I miss Bob Graham.
Conservatively Liberal
I prefer Bugs Bunny’s method of handling Florida; saw it off and shove it towards Cuba. The way that they run elections there, Cuba ought to be the perfect country for them.
We can only get rid of Florida if Texas is given back to Mexico though. I like symmetry. ;)
Wilfred
That’s right. Today is a bit of political theater, a bit of catharsis for the mad dog crowd, the kind of people that need to think they’ve been cheated and wronged. They’re too stupid to see that she’s using them as a bargaining chip to get something for herself.
Ted
I don’t think Spain would want the pandhandle part back. They’d probably ask us to keep it.
r€nato
Hillary is fast becoming the Ron Paul of the Democratic party.
ThymeZone
I hope, but do not expect, that this will be the only post I need to make about this thing.
First of all, Mister Ickes is aptly named. What an icky man.
Second, listening to politicians talking loudly and at length, and interspersed with dumb comments by Wolf Blitzer, is not my idea of entertainment. Already my brain hurts and it’s early yet.
Third, I suppose that it’s an honorable thing that they put this on tv and let us see what the sausage-making of democracy looks and sounds like.
Fourth, President Obama. That’s the goal. Anything that doesn’t move us toward that is a waste of time.
Last, when I need a lawyer, get me Wexler.
rachel
I’d rather vote for him; at least he’s said we should get out of Iraq.
Incertus
What I don’t get is how Clinton has grounds to appeal any of this. It seems to me, and maybe I’m just letting logic get in the way here, that the aggrieved parties are the ones with the right of appeal, and I don’t see how Clinton qualifies. The Florida and Michigan delegations are the aggrieved parties—they’re the ones who’ve been sanctioned. Clinton is an interested party, but not an aggrieved one.
Jay
If that’s her plan then she’s crazy because she’d never get close in 2012.
John S.
That’s my congressman!
He was the first congressional candidate I ever got to vote for, and I’ve been happy to vote for him ever since he’s been in office (6 terms now).
Rarely Posts
Yeah, lets just give everyone that isn’t an Obamabot to another country. That’ll fix us.
Person of Choler
After B (middle initial redacted) O is nominated, it will be fun to watch him and the rest of the Democrats kiss up to the Floridians to get their votes.
I will enjoy reading posts and comments here when the Savior’s lips are earnestly applied to that part of the anatomy of Sunshine State voters where the sun, in fact, don’t shine.
Incertus
We’re practically neighbors, then. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz is mine, and while I wish she were supporting Obama, I’ve still been basically pleased with the job she’s done.
That’s the thing about Florida. On a district by district basis, we’ve got some good people in office here. Statewide, though, it’s a clusterfuck.
Helena Montana
Believe it or not, there are quite a few Obamaphiles in Florida, and they’re not mighty happy with their state party. My friend, Ruth, who lives there said this morning that Nelson ought to be run out of the state on a rail.
Conservatively Liberal
Regarding Florida, a comment from a poster at Kos:
What a motto that would be: “Texas: We’re not Florida!”
ThymeZone
I’d be in favor of giving Florida to Cuba and making the whole thing a Grand Duchy under Katherine Harris.
Shinobi
But…. But… We can’t give florida to Cuba! Disney World is in Florida!! Where will Obama take his kids after he wins the nomination!?
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
A White Sox game?
ThymeZone
This is Florida to me.
Open, inviting.
Insane.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
“Uncommitted” is a “legitimate Presidential preference?”
ThymeZone
Regarding the redheaded doofus in the picture I linked to:
“Just a month into the new Democratic majority, we are talking about the costs of an arrogance of office,” said Republican Conference Chairman Adam Putnam of Florida at a briefing for reporters Tuesday. “The same week she is talking about fiscal responsibility, she is requesting a jumbo jet to taxi her back and forth from her district, something that is a major deviation from the previous speaker. Certainly, it is the interest of someone who is in the presidential succession to have access to a secure aircraft, but this is not a routine military charter flight. This is Air Force Three.”
However, the House of Representatives’ Sergeant-at-Arms Bill Livingood had requested the plane for House Speaker Pelosi’s security.[3]
“I regret that an issue that is exclusively considered and decided in a security context has evolved into a political issue,” Bill Livingood said in a news release.
The White House issued a press release supporting the House Sergeant at Arms and Speaker Pelosi.[4]
“This is a silly story and I think it’s been unfair to the speaker,” White House spokesman Tony Snow said at a morning briefing with reporters. “We think it’s important that the speaker of the House enjoy the same kind of security that we arranged for Speaker Hastert in the wake of September 11th. And like I said, I think that there’s been a lot of over-hyped reporting on this,” Snow said.
The Tampa Tribune described him as “unapologetic” about making comments on what turned out to be a false story about House Speaker Nancy Pelosi [5]
Putnam now acknowledges he had no personal knowledge of any Pelosi request. He said he was commenting on an anonymously sourced story in The Washington Times and additional coverage from CNN. “This was a classic case where the media got out in front of us,” Putnam said. “Did we jump on it? Yes.” And he is unapologetic about that. He calls the Pelosi plane story, whatever its legitimacy, “the first break [Republicans] have had from the media in driving our message since before the Mark Foley story broke.”
Putnam also garnered attention when he stated “white rednecks” who “didn’t show up to vote for us” cost Republicans their Congressional majority in the 2006 elections. The report noted that…
“Three Republicans in the room independently confirmed to the Hotline the substance and context of Putnam’s remarks. But Putnam’s chief of staff insists that the remarks were taken out of context…Putnam’s chief of staff, John Hambel, said his boss has used the word “redneck” only in the context of sharing polling data from last week’s elections. Hambel said Putnam was listing off different constituencies and ended with saying: “Heck, we even had rednecks who go to church who didn’t come out to vote.[1]
Florida: Shaped like a sump at the bottom of America. For a reason.
Ted
Oh dear. There’s a bee in someone’s bonnet, and we’ve lost the ability to distinguish a joke.
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
Often Posts has a sense of humor?
El Cid
Hey, if states can move their primaries to any date they like with no punishment, why don’t we just have a bunch of states have the 2012 primaries today and declared Hillary Clinton the Democratic nominee and basically the President of 2012 right now.
By HRC campaign logic, then, the fact that she is now already both the nominee and the President of 2012, she is therefore the incumbent of 2008 and should of course get the nomination that she won in fact 4 years ago.
smiley
...to curry favor with the likes of Iowa…
Iowa is icky to Ickes.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Wexler has been great.
John Cole
What the hell are you talking about- we don’t even know who Florida and Michigan voted for since they did not have actual elections.
I am in favor of getting rid of them because Florida has proven over and over they can not run an election and because Levin and Michigan have been pulling this shit for 8 years.
Splitting Image
“After B (middle initial redacted) O is nominated, it will be fun to watch him and the rest of the Democrats kiss up to the Floridians to get their votes.
I will enjoy reading posts and comments here when the Savior’s lips are earnestly applied to that part of the anatomy of Sunshine State voters where the sun, in fact, don’t shine.”
Dream on.
Texas is the prize this year. Florida is practically the only state in the country where John McCain can claim a natural constituency. Obama will campaign there, but I don’t think he’s counting on winning it.
Texas, on the other hand, has a strong grassroots opposition to the Republicans thanks to Tom Delay, the demographics are becoming friendlier to the Democrats, and losing Bush and Cheney’s home state will demoralize the Republicans.
Incertus
We didn’t have any major problems in ‘06, and there were certainly bigger fuckups than us in ‘04. We’re not perfect, by any stretch, but we’re still getting lumps for 2000, and while the Dems down here certainly deserve their share of the blame, the fact is that Jeb! and Katherine Harris did a good job of stealing it via that voter purge bullshit.
Leo
Two winning back-to-back comments from Talkleft:
Adam
Levin’s kicking ass. Based on him and Brewer, I’d rather give Michigan their delegates and tell Florida to go to hell. The Florida Democrats told the DNC to get fucked and they should pay the price. The Michigan result was less legit and the Michigan primary was less legit but at least they’re acting in good faith and actually engaging the problems of the primary system. That’s what should be happening.
Dennis - SGMM
How can they settle this when the people of the critical swing state of Puerto Rico haven’t been heard from yet?
Adam
But John, Levin’s actually been doing this is good faith for a while. At least he has a history here. All the Florida Democrats were lying to the Committee—they all supported flaunting the rules and actually mocked the DNC on the record, and now they’re all lying and saying oh boo hoo, it was the Republicans. Screw those guys. You can tell Levin’s the only one who actually knows what’s going on here.
Adam
Yes, it’s explicit in the Rules.
El Cid
By the way, I live in Georgia, and if either state (MI or FL) can keep all their delegates, I’m going to push that we move up to next week, June of 2008, the Georgia primaries for 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018, and 2020 so that our voices can finally be heard
Adam
** My personal preference of seating all of MI and none of FL aside, the Committee’s simply not authorized to return more than 50%. Sorry Levin.
dr. bloor
But John, Levin’s actually been doing this is good faith for a while. At least he has a history here. All the Florida Democrats were lying to the Committee—they all supported flaunting the rules and actually mocked the DNC on the record, and now they’re all lying and saying oh boo hoo, it was the Republicans. Screw those guys. You can tell Levin’s the only one who actually knows what’s going on here.
Michigan generally, and Levin specifically, have a completely legitimate argument about structuring the primaries in such a way as to improve the odds of the best candidate getting the nomination. Serially breaking the rules regarding primary placement is not a legitimate, nor an effective, way to advance that argument.
Dennis - SGMM
Clinton’s rejection of the Michigan Democratic party’s plan for seating their delegates pretty well proved that she’ll settle for nothing less than the nomination and that she will do anything (Including lawsuits) to get it. If the super delegates flock to Obama after the last primary, Clinton will then challenge that process. When Obama finally does get the nom she’ll plead that she’s fatigued and not campaign for him.
She’s deluded herself into thinking that she’s the legitimate heir to the presidency but if she’s planning on a run in ‘12 she’d better start making nice with the Green Party.
She’s the Mary Queen of Scots of the Democratic Party.
Adam
“On the ground”... wrong answer, Levin. The DNC can craft a fair apportionment formula under 20.c.5 that only uses “uncommitted” preference as 1 of 3 important factors. It’s not the only relevant factor as would the case in the straightforward primary itself under Rules 12 and 13.
Adam
Well, Levin’s telling the truth that NH violated the rules roo, so equitable enforcement is also part of that goal. But like I said, not more than 50% is even allowed. The Rules also allow for the remedial solution.
Man, Ickes needs to STFU.
Incertus
And if the response from the courts already is any indication, she’ll lose, and lose fast. If she starts filing lawsuits once the primary season is over, I’m going to start pressuring my local superdelegates who are supporting her to switch over, to force Clinton’s hand.
PaulW
Am I the only optimist in the room today?
Yes, Hillary Clinton is psychotic enough to try and drag this out all the way to Denver, but I am willing to believe that enough of her ‘supporters’ are going to realize that Obama’s the nominee, that she’s being a bitch and not in the positive way (I digress, but I do believe bitchiness can be a positive attribute, just not the way Hill’s doing it), and eventually that Hillary’s gonna be knocked down to Ron Paul status (still running as an annoyance at 10 percent support and not much else).
While trying to get the delegates straightened out now for this election will be the headache, I just want to keep reminding people there’s a perfectly good solution to stop this from happening again: HAVE ALL THE PRIMARIES ON THE SAME DAMN DAY! Thank you.
P.S. if you want to get rid of Michigan and Florida (mah homestate), please for the Love of God support all efforts to get rid of Texas as well. Thank you.
sunny
My mountain of laundy screamed so I missed most of Wexler.(I’ve loved that guy since HJC hearings on Starr)Can someone give me a quick run-down?
El Cid
I’m just getting in the results of the 2028 Florida primary, and it turns out that my niece already won, and the fact that I voted for her here in Georgia and she is not on any ballots will not prevent me from protesting any attempts at disenfranchising the voters of Florida as represented by me here now.
Adam
Here’s 20.c.5 if anyone’s interested:
Once we’re in the land of a remedial solution, “fair reflection” only comes up in (ii). Ickes is lying.
Adam
“Let me first remember if I can remember your second, third, and fifth questions, though.”
Ickes gets owned twice. Badass.
TheFountainHead
Ugh, I should just go back to bed huh?
PaulW
One other reason why Democrats should be optimistic no matter how hard Hillary tries to kill the party:
The Republican platform is so screwed up even Republicans prefer the Democratic one. Read the article, which points out on nearly every major topic, when the platforms are revealed without party label, that the majority of those polled (Dems, Inds, Reps) keep preferring the Democratic platform. And that even with the platforms labeled, people are still preferring the Democrats (albeit in lesser numbers from Republicans who would support their platform when they see it’s labeled as theirs). Biggest surprise? Number of Republicans who side with the Democratic platform on taxes…
Conservatively Liberal
I read something recently at Kos about how Michigan is no innocent in this either, that they have a history of screwing with the starting date of their primary that goes back to at least the mid-1980’s.
While Florida was a total clusterfuck from the get-go due to their Democratic politicians playing games with the Republicans there, at least the ballots had all of the candidates names on them.
Michigan, while arguably less culpable in what happened (if you ignore their own history, that is), is really a problem because from what I understand the problem is that for the vote to be counted, there has to be a clearly discernible choice for specific candidates made by the voters. So the people who voted for ‘uncommitted’ (or whatever the ‘not Hillary’ vote was) have not indicated a clear candidate choice, to the best of my knowledge.
The whole process is a fuckup and though it needs to be addressed after the general, it won’t be. Politicians don’t like rules that don’t give them all the chance to exploit them for wriggle room whenever the need arises. That is frequently why bills and rules that they propose almost always fail in one way or another. They just don’t like making rules or laws that are ironclad.
Ted
I read that, good article. It just reinforces the ‘tribal’ theory of voting habits.
Adam
While Florida was a total clusterfuck from the get-go due to their Democratic politicians playing games with the Republicans there, at least the ballots had all of the candidates names on them.It’s not just that. It’s that the Democratic party in Florida went on the floor of the Congress and said they registered protest so as to comply with the Rules. The Chair asked them if this was just pro forma since they were all advocating for the the bill and they said “yeah, we’ll go on record as whatever we’re supposed to go on record as saying.” Seriously, it’s that obtuse. The only reason the candidates didn’t remove their names from the Florida ballot is that Florida law doesn’t allow for it and Michigan law does. Florida is just potentially benefiting from dumb luck.
TheFountainHead
Thank god for C-Span, I think if I had to watch this on CNN, I would end up stabbing myself with a breakfast spoon…
Cain
Person of Choler Says:
After B (middle initial redacted) O is nominated, it will be fun to watch him and the rest of the Democrats kiss up to the Floridians to get their votes.
I will enjoy reading posts and comments here when the Savior’s lips are earnestly applied to that part of the anatomy of Sunshine State voters where the sun, in fact, don’t shine.
Why, because you’ve enjoyed watching Hillary doing exactly that for about 6 months in every state she thinks counts?
cain
Conservatively Liberal
From what I have read online, I heard that the Clinton operatives in MI stacked the Uncommitted delegates with her supporters because Obama had no presence in the delegate selection process due to his not being on the ballot. That is why they are so adamant about wanting them seated as uncommitted; Hillary already ‘owns’ most of them.
I may have misunderstood this, but it sure sounded like the fix was already in for Hillary there.
TheFountainHead
This Liz Smith person is a fucking sycophant and as dumb as a rock.
Conservatively Liberal
Yeah Adam, I saw the YouTube clip of the Florida officials basically laughing it up. The short of it for both states is that their contests are flawed and while they should be seated for the convention, they have no right to affect the outcome at this point.
It is as simple as this: If they had followed the rules, they would have counted. They didn’t.
End of story.
TheFountainHead
I thought this thing was sold out, why so many empty seats?
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
I think Obama should accept the Michigan proposal of 69-59 – why aren’t they? Obama’s request for 64-64, 5 more delegates, doesn’t seem like a significant dent to his delegate lead, what am I missing?
El Cid
Again. I have relatives and colleagues and friends in Florida. To a one, they have all dismissed this “disenfranchisement” nonsense for what it was. They ALL see it as Florida having jumped the mark, and they think all this fake ‘civil rights’ style crowing by the Clinton campaign about it is what it is, cynical electioneering by the exact same people who helped create the punishment in the first place.
TheFountainHead
She’s so “concerned” So very, very “concerned”.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
I thought this thing was sold out, why so many empty seats?
May 31st, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Bad weather in DC? Andrea Mitchell said there was a tornado warning and the pool feed keeps getting knocked down.
TheFountainHead
Ah, good call.
Blue Raven
My husband’s still asleep so I daren’t turn on the TV (studio apartment). I’m reading these comments like a liveblog, though. It’s lovely for a newly minted political junkie like myself; the right mix of guilty pleasure and updated info with some sweet, sweet snark.
TheFountainHead
Uh oh, here comes Blanchard the Blowhard.
Conservatively Liberal
Mother Nature is a misogynist.
Incertus
If you look at it as a bargaining position, then it makes sense—don’t concede more than you need to at the beginning. Then the 69-59 split looks reasonable.
Incertus
I’ve never seen him before, but it sure sounds like you’ve nailed him. Wow.
El Doh
My understanding is the Obama campaign indicated they were willing to accept this compromise last week. I presume that they’re not pushing it now to give room to this as a compromise solution.
TheFountainHead
He’s not a bad guy from what I’ve seen of him, he’s just a grandstander.
TheFountainHead
LOL: “I don’t think Michigan voters were aware that Michigan wouldn’t count.”
Wow.
Adam
Lowball offer.
dr. bloor
Wait for someone at Hillaryis44 to claim that Father Time has been physically abusing her, and has taken over today’s weather to sabotage “their girl.”
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Thanks all.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Is this “Fair Reflection” argument designed to couple with the arguable popular vote victory Clinton will claim and go to the convention?
smiley
Via Jane via HuffPo:
Conservatively Liberal Says:
Hm, interesting.
Adam
Keep in mind that Obama currently leads by about 200 delegates according to the GOS. So conceding net 19 in Florida and net 10 in Michigan still puts them up by 170 and takes a lot of delegates off the table. If Florida is counted at 50% it puts them within spitting distance of the amount needed, if if the “magic number” of 2024 goes up (it doesn’t go up to 2210 if Florida is seated at 50%).
Adam
No, it’s the argument that the selection rules require that the delegate allocations “fairly reflect” the expressed will of those voting, including uncommitted status.
(Strangely, I think Rule 13 uses the “expressed” language while Rule 12 doesn’t, IIRC —seems like a mistake to me.)
Person of Choler
cain, you ask, “Why, because you’ve enjoyed watching Hillary doing exactly that for about 6 months in every state she thinks counts?”
Yes. I’ve enjoyed that also. As a conservative, the only pleasure I’ll get out of this election cycle – and the ensuing presidency – is to watch the Democrats in a mud wrestling match. I’d enjoy watching some action like Chicago ‘68 in Denver, but that isn’t likely to happen.
ThymeZone
Wexler: I have a dream. Four score and. We have nothing to fear. Ask not. United States of America.
Ickes: Ick, ick, ick. Fair reflection, sticks and stones, uh, SHUT UP THAT’S WHY.
Wexler: Who is this ass?
Pb
Their expressed will as in, not voting for Clinton when she was on the ballot? That seems like a pretty clear argument as to why she absolutely should get none of those delegates—they consciously chose to vote against her and for anyone else. Seems to me that scenario would get her the most votes, too, fancy that.
‘course, I rather liked Poblano’s analysis too, which explains the Michigan 69 – 59 split proposal rather well…
dr. bloor
cain, you ask, “Why, because you’ve enjoyed watching Hillary doing exactly that for about 6 months in every state she thinks counts?”
Yes. I’ve enjoyed that also. As a conservative, the only pleasure I’ll get out of this election cycle – and the ensuing presidency – is to watch the Democrats in a mud wrestling match. I’d enjoy watching some action like Chicago ‘68 in Denver, but that isn’t likely to happen.
Yeah, beacause it was so good for the country and gave us that prince of a guy Nixon, the previous title holder of WPE.
And watching people get the shit kicked out of them in the streets was a gas, too, eh?
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
No, it’s the argument that the selection rules require that the delegate allocations “fairly reflect” the expressed will of those voting, including uncommitted status.
(Strangely, I think Rule 13 uses the “expressed” language while Rule 12 doesn’t, IIRC —seems like a mistake to me.)
May 31st, 2008 at 1:33 pm
So Fair Reflection is mainly focused on Michigan and to get the “uncommitted” delegates awarded to “Uncomitted” and not “Obama” enabling Clinton chances of getting more than 73 delegates AND getting the popular vote totals recognized with no regard to Obama’s name not appearing on the ballot (“it was a political strategy”)?
slag
I agree with others that this is a bargaining tool. There’s no doubt that the Clinton camp is trying to use Obama’s not having his name on the ballot as a way to pin the entire mess on him. And the Obama campaign doesn’t want to look like they got everything they wanted by being reasonable from the get-go.
If got what he asked for, Clinton would then whine that the RBC should just offer him a pillow.
Cain
Fair enough, I’m enjoying watching Republicans join the democratic party, I’m enjoying watching a Republican administration have the lowest popularity since Nixon (you know that other republican president), I’m enjoying watching Democrats slowly taking over the House and Senate. I’m enjoying Obama kicking the crap out of McCain. I’m enjoying watching the collective moaning and groaning of the Republican party, directionless, despondant, out of money, and desperately searching for some way to get a foothold back in american politics.
I’m having a good year. How about you?
cain
sunny
lol ThymeZone, thanks.
I swear to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Clinton is going to the Convention, no matter what happens today.
I’ll be glad to be proven wrong.
Cain
Live blogging here. Marc Ambinder on The Atlantic is blogging the whole thing for those who want to know what’s happening.
cain
Adam
That’s essentially the point of contention, yeah.
kind of an off white
Dang, I always figured this cat’s comments were ironical. Such a clever handle for someone into hippie-beating porn.
Rick Taylor
So is Al Giordano at the field, and John Sudbay at Americablog.
Adam
Wait, sorry—no, fair reflection doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the popular vote total. Delegates don’t necessarily mirror the popular vote. It just means that the delegates have to be directly based on (fairly reflect) the expressed intent of the voter.
Adam
No, the rules say that the delegate allocation has to recognize uncommitted status, too. The issue is that Obama and Edwards supporters in Michigan were told to vote uncommitted. You can’t cast an “anybody but x” vote.
Bob In Pacifica
I hope someone will get up and say that all the candidates signed a pledge not to “campaign or participate” in the Michigan primary. By leaving her name on the ballot Clinton therefore violated the spirit of her signed pledge and that behavior should not give her an advantage over candidates who obeyed party sanctions.
Bob In Pacifica
Don’t you get the Myanmar Channel on your cable? What with the food riots around the world there should be plenty of street-fighting for your taste.
cbear
I know it must be tough on you having so little to do while the Dems fight it out, but give it a couple of months and you’ll be able to head up to Minneapolois and get in on some real action in the public parks and restrooms with your own kind. Don’t forget to bring your “raincoat” and a good lubricant.
mcd
Another solution to Michigan: Halve the delegation and make them ALL “uncommitted.”
Pb
Adam,
But of course people can and do this all the time; once you start talking about divining the will of the voters, that’s the position you’re left in.
bad dad
Does that mean we get to be part of Canada? Because nothing would piss my wife off more (except maybe Dearborn getting annexed by Detroit).
It would rock becoming Canadian. I’d automatically become 100% more polite.
Person of Choler
Dr. Bloor,
“Yeah, beacause it was so good for the country and gave us that prince of a guy Nixon, the previous title holder of WPE.”
If you recall, it was the split in the Democratic Party over Vietnam that gave us Mr. Nixon. We have Eugene McCarthy to thank for widening that gap.
As for the behind-kicking in the streets, if you start riots in a place like Mayor Daley Sr.’s Chicago, expect a little pushback.
Person of Choler
Cain,
You say you are having a good year and have enquired about mine. Except for politics, things are going well. Thank you for asking
I am anxious to see how things improve once the Savior is installed as President.
Person of Choler
cbear,
you speak of “real action”, public parks, restrooms, raincoats and lubricant in a place called “Minneapolois”.
Is this Minneapolois a fantasy of yours? To be honest, it sounds perverse and sinister to me and I will decline to follow your travel advice.
RC
“This is all about the Clintons. This isn’t about anything else. Not sure why people have not figured that out yet.”
Surely Obama’s campaign is all about Obama as well. I can’t see where he has put the interests of the Democratic Party above his own so far.
AnotherBruce
Well then, how about this. He’s playing by the rules that the Democratic Party set forth. You may not like those rules, but he’s not trying to twist them into a pretzel to steal the nomination.
Chris Johnson
RC- 50 state strategy?
RC
How about this to simplify, Obama does something = good, Hillary does something = bad? Obama’s campaign is about Obama, I doubt he is running for anything more than his own gain, like all politicians.
Frankly, US politics in the last 8 years is not only an end to irony but an and to logic, and now everything is rationalism. That is, people pick the answer they want and then torture logic enough so it gives the right answer.
That’s what happened with Bush, and he got the highest ratings of any US president as well as the lowest. You couldn’t discuss Bush logically with nearly anyone, whether it was blind devotion or blind hatred. Now it seems to be blind devotion and hatred again, but now it’s with Obama.
And Obama supporters are as unable to see their utter lack of logic as Bush supporters were. Maybe it’s not surprising the 2 most in the tank for Bush, Cole and Sullivan are now rationalising blindly for Obama.
It was absurd to argue that the Clintons are in it for themselves, of course they are, and of course Obama is. Years ago it seemed like the invasion of the body snatchers, when normal people would become incapable of reasoning about Bush, now it is the same nonsense about Obama.
Not that Hillary is so great, but at least her supporters understand how logic works.
Tom in Texas
Now if they could only understand math, we’d be in business.
RC
Every president before Dubya was elected on the basis of what job they did, each and every day. Everyone accepted that the president’s job was about his perfvormance, whether Clinton, Reagan, etc. But somehow this all changed with Dubya, and his performance was all about whether you approved or disapproved of his codpiece, saying nukular, giving nicknames, mangling his words, smirking, etc. Whether he did a good job or not was suddenly not part of the equation any more, and predictably ignoring poor performance delivered the worst performance ever. Maybe Dubya developed these evasions to hise his incompetence and the voters fell for it.
But now people haven’t gone back to judging a president on perfomance. Everything about Obama is like Dubya, his smile, his rise from poverty, and his opponent like Gore is measured like their exaggerations, misstatements as lies, flip flopping when they change their clothes or have a drink, etc.
It’s like Dubya changed people’s perception of what a president is, and it is now a figurehead or mascot job. And even now after 8 years people haven’t gone back to the old way, of grilling candidates for competency, policies, and looking for clues they are unfit for office.
So now Hillary is losing and Obama is winning, and I can’t see any reason why this is happening to either in relation to their fitness to be president. I wouldn’t hire Obama or Hillary to run a used car lot with the way we are judging their qualifications, nor would I have hired Dubya for the same job.
Bush Derangment continues, in how we select candidates so far.
crazydrumguy | readblog | » I Was There
[...] I was working at the now infamous DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee meeting yesterday in DC. It was a very, very long day, and I spent about twelve straight hours on my feet (which still hurt this morning). There are plenty of places to read about what went on at the meeting. Since I was there in a position which required neutrality, I won’t say anything about the results except that I’m glad the meeting has happened and is over. [...]