Can we go ahead and call Voter ID laws sponsored by Republicans what they really are yet?
Take a look at the 10 Alabama counties with the highest percentage of non-white registered voters. That’s Macon, Greene, Sumter, Lowndes, Bullock, Perry, Wilcox, Dallas, Hale, and Montgomery, according to the Alabama Secretary of State’s office. Alabama, thanks to its budgetary insanity and inanity, just opted to close driver license bureaus in eight of them. All but Dallas and Montgomery will be closed.
Closed. In a state in which driver licenses or special photo IDs are a requirement for voting.
It’s not just a civil rights violation. It is not just a public relations nightmare. It is not just an invitation for worldwide scorn and an alarm bell to the Justice Department. It is an affront to the very notion of justice in a nation where one man one vote is as precious as oxygen. It is a slap in the face to all who believe the stuff we teach the kids about how all are created equal.
Every single county in which blacks make up more than 75 percent of registered voters will see their driver license office closed. Every one.
But remember, Chief Justice Roberts assured us that such blatant racism is over in America, and that there’s no need to continue to “unfairly punish” Southern states for the voter suppression tactics of the past with the unnecessary and antiquated provisions of the Voting Rights Act.
Apparently there’s no need to deal with the voter suppression tactics of the present, either.
Roger Moore
Roberts’ stance should come as no surprise, since his first job in government was working with the Reagan Administration to gut civil rights laws. It’s pathetic that anyone fell for his “just an umpire calling balls and strikes” routine.
RaflW
But SCOTUS ruled there is no need for special attention, so move along.
Those five racist f*kers.
Belafon
Roberts wears a black robe and it hasn’t affected his ability to vote. There’s obviously no racism involved.
(Does this need a ) //
benw
You’re killing it with the post titles these days, Zandar. As for the open disenfranchisement of black and poor Americans by the Republican party and the associated media complicity, I’m so mad I don’t know what to say.
Betty Cracker
I sure hope the Justice Department is on this.
A guy
Dems don’t like the voter I’d laws cause it hampers their attempts at voter fraud.
greennotGreen
Wow. Just wow. Do the people who made this decision know that they’re racists, or are they as self-deluded as Justice Roberts?
Tommy
Clearly Voter ID laws is an issue, but I’d like to just take a step back and ponder if I want a freaking licence in the state of Alabama. I mean isn’t that just a basic service the government provides? Don’t we pay a fee for it?
Archon
Did anyone really think this would end at, “just show your I.D when you vote”? Of course the next step was to make getting and renewing an I.D much harder and more expensive.
scav
Imagine the howls if the federal govt closed down services in entire states along similar principles . . . (percentages would be a little different).
Howls would be right up there if the vaunted businessman MBA president spun off all the negative income states in order to maximize shareholder profit. (most recent map I could find)
cmorenc
@A guy:
This is a troll post, right? Either that, or what you’re claiming, in context of THIS thread, is that without closing the driver’s license bureaus in heavily black counties, they’d be coming out in droves trying to fraudulently apply for driver’s licenses in order to attempt to fraudulently vote. Or agents of the democratic party would be attempting massive fraud at the driver’s license bureaus to obtain licenses for nonexistent voters, or multiple licenses so the same black voter could vote multiple times, using a different license to present to the precinct registrar each of the multiple trips they’d make to the voting booth.
Derelict
I’m sure having a few Oath Keepers at each polling station will help with making sure the sacred right to vote is not abused in those places.
Sadly, I think we’ve reached a point in Supreme Court reasoning where nothing short of White thugs with pick handles, fire hoses, and German shepherds keeping Blacks away from polling places would make a majority of justices say, “Well, maybe there’s a little discrimination going on here.”
Tommy
@Archon: Of course we saw this coming. Frankly it hurts my head. Where I live I like to joke I can vote faster than I can order a Big Mac. It is fast and efficient. There is no reason, none that everybody doesn’t have what I have. Being able to vote shouldn’t be rocket science.
jayboat
Another southern state leads the way!
Old times there are not forgotten.
There are too many moments lately when I am embarrassed to call myself an American.
Jeffro
OT but where’s RtR when we need him?
From today’s Greg Sargent column in the Post:
srv
Roberts has some smaht cookies:
Richer, whiter districts are coming. Kennedy will be on that A-Team.
Lazy liberals always lose the long game.
scav
@cmorenc: The probably unintentional reveal in the voter “I’d” is interesting.
Another member of the laws are what I’d say they are and I’d obey them when I’d choose brigade.
Frankensteinbeck
Part of our problem is our desire to assume that the American public is one group, and thus we must all share the same basic values. This is very much not true. There are sections of our public that think voting is a privilege, not a right. It is natural and obvious to them to take it away from anyone they disapprove of, only tangentially because that increases their own power. To us, it needs justification. To them, it’s the right thing to do.
BGinCHI
Stop worrying, Henry Kissinger will fix this.
rikyrah
Don’t come for Nancy Smash unless she sends for you.
Luke RussertVerified account@LukeRussert
A conservative journo asked Pelosi abt what constitutes a baby being alive: Pelosi, “I’m a mother of 5, I think I know more abt this than u”
burnspbesq
DOJ and private plaintiffs are on something of a roll in VRA Section 2 cases filed since Shelby County. Which is not to say that Shelby County was correctly decided or that it doesn’t matter, but the effect has been less than what certain Chickens Little predicted at the time.
RaflW
@greennotGreen: Roberts knows exactly what he is doing. The only delusion is that Roberts is somehow even remotely moderate.
gex
@greennotGreen: A few cases tell me they know exactly what Voter ID is about. There was a Wisconsin Republican who publicly denounced the state’s Voter ID laws and called them what they were. (Wisconsin pioneered the Voter ID/close license offices move).
Another case was the Republican (can’t remember which state he was from) who was interviewed on the Daily Show and admitted what the laws were for, but in an unapologetic manner.
When Republicans tried to defend Voter ID in Pennsylvania, they had to admit to a judge that they had no evidence of voter fraud to justify the “fix” to the voter fraud problem.
Enough of them know what this is about that those who don’t know are simply lying to themselves along with everyone else. The rest are just lying to the public.
Frankensteinbeck
@rikyrah:
Damn, that woman is good at rhetoric.
Belafon
@A guy: Please find me this voter fraud. And please point out how it’s happening in minority neighborhoods. And if you refuse, please show up at my house so I can cut off your hands to prevent you from robbing a store. You can never be too proactive, obviously.
RaflW
@cmorenc:
Dahlia Lithwick’s tutu, ignore him!
Roger Moore
@Derelict:
FTFY.
Humboldtblue
Yeah, I read the plagiarism site that calls itself Raw Story as well, but in the heat of the moment be reminded that Alabama allows you to get or renew a driver’s license online and that each county clerk’s office will still issue the ID necessary to vote.
In much more accurate news, the crunchy dipshits who think their special little snowflakes are better than other people’s, opponents to the California requirement to have your child vaccinated before they enter public schools have failed to gather enough signatures to get a repeal measure on the 2016 ballot.
MattF
@Tommy: But, but… they’re Democrats.
Frankensteinbeck
@gex:
As I recall, a successful argument used to defend the constitutionality of such laws in court was ‘We are trying to suppress Democratic turnout. That minority turnout was suppressed is coincidental.’ As a political maneuver, it’s apparently not unconstitutional, only as racism.
rikyrah
uh huh
uh huh
Transparent as glass, Zandar.
Glad someone finally FP’ed this bullshyt.
Splitting Image
The U.S. unfortunately is not alone in this matter. Certain Canadian parties are also pushing voter I.D. They are actually getting some traction by tying the niqab together with the “voter fraud” narrative.
The idea is that Muslim women could commit voter fraud if their faces are covered while they vote, so first the niqab needs to be banned so officials can verify a person’s identity with a photo I.D., and secondly photo I.D. needs to be made mandatory. Suckers hear the first part but not the second, but true believers know the second part is the really important bit.
rikyrah
@A guy:
There is no voter fraud.
PERIOD.
Humboldtblue
Again, before we revive the dessicated corpse of Bill Sherman and put on our blue coats and sling rifled muskets across our shoulders and start singing military marching songs, every county in Alabama also has an office where a free ID that can be used to vote is available.
Tommy
@rikyrah: Exactly. I ponder a lot of things in my life and not even sure how I’d conduct voter fraud. If I wanted to do it, and I don’t, not sure how I’d do it.
Mary G
@Humboldtblue: Like poor black people in Alabama who don’t have driver’s licenses can easily go online?
Humboldtblue
@Mary G: They can go to the county clerk’s office and get a free ID.
And I hope this serves as a lesson to NEVER take anything that is posted on Raw Story as accurate until you have checked the source they pulled their plagiarized stories from. I was as aghast as the next person when I read the headline but with 15 minutes of follow-up I found that access to the necessary ID is still easily available and still free. That’s why you don’t read Raw Story for anything other than getting yourself riled up.
Omnes Omnibus
@Humboldtblue: And everyone in MS has internet access and/or the ability to easily pop over to the county clerk’s office, right? Closing DMV offices severely restricts access to the required ID.
I do expect that the DoJ will be all over this.
Humboldtblue
@Omnes Omnibus: Not when a free ID is still available in the county in which you live. I don’t like the decision either but stop pretending that by ensuring access to free IDs at a local government office means that millions have been disenfranchised, it’s inaccurate.
SatanicPanic
@srv: that’s sure something to be proud of, I guess
Shakezula
@Humboldtblue: You need documentation for the “Free ID,” you need transportation to get to the clerk’s office for the “Free ID.” You need to fill out a form for the free ID.
khead
Everyone who supports voter ID laws to prevent fraud should have to live with speed bumps on every road they travel.
Gex
@Tommy: Ask Ann Coulter or Mitt Romney or other Republicans who have gotten caught for it.
Tommy
@Humboldtblue:
That is very informative info. I would not have thought that. But do you think most people in the state know this? The DMV is where I go for an ID. I bet most people think as I do.
scav
Closing that number of DMV offices should also be along the lines of attaching economic lead weights onto those people working tough jobs that don’t allow for the amount of time/flexibility to get to more distant offices to renew — the working poor. Can’t get the time free to reup the license so drive on a suspended one, then get caught and add-in the court cases, timing and fees. Sounds a bit like the situation in St. Louis county. Tidy little money maker too.
Gex
@Frankensteinbeck: Ugh. That’s just gross. Reminds me of when they argued that banning SSM isn’t discrimination because no one, straight or gay, would be allowed to have a SSM.
rikyrah
Where is the Justice Department on the phuckery going down in Alabama?
Where are the Democratic Party’s Candidates for President?
Where is the CONGRESSIONAL BLACK CAUCUS?
Humboldtblue
@Shakezula: And? That has nothing to do with the closing of the DMV, you still need all the things you just pointed out to get a driver’s license but somehow that’s different? In fact it’s far harder to get a driver’s license than it is to get a “Free ID”.
We agree that voting should be as easy as possible, but until the Feds pass laws that overrule the state Alabama is going to win this. The necessary IDs are still free and still available locally and no amount of hand-wringing on our part is going to change that. I am pointing out that there is additional information about this story that is being ignored.
Jack the Second
@rikyrah: Then how do you explain Democrats occasionally winning, huh???
mr_gravity
@Humboldtblue: Can’t go to those places. Can’t get a fcking driver’s license.
FlyingToaster
@A guy: In a heavily democratic state like Massachusetts, we don’t seem to have these instances of “voter fraud” that you’re claiming.
So why is it so hard for Republican states to get their acts together, or is it not about voter fraud AT ALL?
Back under your bridge, troll!
Humboldtblue
@mr_gravity: How’d you get to the DMV office then?
Omnes Omnibus
@Humboldtblue: If one closes down multiple locations where a person can get something, one is restricting access to that thing. It is pretty damn simple.
FlyingToaster
@Tommy: Do you want a lesson?
Back in Chicago…
1. Find someone who is dead, go to their polling place, check in as them, vote, leave.
2. Repeat for a list of dead people, one in each polling place not your own.
3. Hope that nobody in any of the polling places knew the person you’re voting as.
4. Profit!!!
lowercase steve
@Humboldtblue:
The point is not to disenfranchise millions, it is to more discourage and disenfranchise as much as possible on the margins…make it hard to vote so enough give up that it impacts the elections.
Tommy
@FlyingToaster: I live in a pretty blue state. Midwest but Illinois. When I hear stuff like this I frankly don’t understand. It is not in our makeup we do stuff like this.
Humboldtblue
@Omnes Omnibus: OK, they have restricted access to the DMV office but still maintained access to the necessary ID at the county office.
Tommy
@FlyingToaster: You have one doucmented occurence of this?
FlyingToaster
@Tommy: Chicago is in Cook County, Illinois.
My dad went to Northwestern. When we as kids in KC would hear about our local governmental corruption, my dad would laugh and call them pikers. “Prendergast was an amateur compared to Daley”, acoording to him.
srv
Liberal’s problem is that they’re usually too lazy to vote, not that they don’t have IDs. Off year elections prove that to be true.
ruemara
@srv: about the only thing correct in your statement is that liberals are lazy and do lose the long game, because they think battles are won, not that there will always be a struggle.
Humboldtblue
@lowercase steve: That’s why ID requirements were created in the first place, we both understand that and that’s not new and so far as long as they are accessible and free they haven’t been found unconstitutional.
The issue here is the fact that Alabama officials decided under the guise of financial hardship to close down DMV offices in county’s that are overwhelmingly populated by minority constituents and that immediately led to the cry of massive disenfranchisement. The state requires IDs to vote and the Feds require them to abide by certain regulations and as long as Alabama can say we provide access to free IDs needed to vote they’re going to win, that’s my only point.
Emma
@srv: Actually the problem is that we believe people like you still deserve basic human respect as well as the same constitutional rights we all enjoy. Don’t worry, you’re teaching us otherwise.
Tommy
@FlyingToaster: Yeah I know where Chicago is. You didn’t respond, name one documented case. You can’t because there are none. None.
japa21
@FlyingToaster: So that gets a person to cast 2, maybe 3 votes and to take all day to do that. Don’t know anybody that would even considering making all that effort.
And it would require knowing a person is dead, knowing what precinct that person voted in, knowing that person is still on the roll and then knowing the person’s signature well enough to come at least close to approximating it and doing that for several dead people.
An awful lot of effort to gain an extra 1 or 2 votes.
FlyingToaster
From the Baltimore Sun.
Texas was just as bad (hence the term “Landslide Johnson”).
Archon
@srv:
Do liberals magically become unlazy during Presidential years when they are taking Republicans out back to the electoral woodshed?
Brachiator
What an exaggeration. Look, these budget cut solutions are obviously proportional and rational. Consider this one, for example.
In addition to the inconvenience imposed, when does this ID requirement become a de facto poll tax?
ETA: Obviously, for some people, the ID will be free, but still….
FlyingToaster
@Tommy: Sorry, I was going through the links (snopes, etc.).
3 Chicago election workers were convicted of voter fraud in 1962. The cite from Wikipedia is a dead link.
Omnes Omnibus
@Humboldtblue: No one is arguing that there is no access to the ID in those counties. The argument is that restricting access will cause eligible voters to be unable to get the required ID. Those voters will be disenfranchised by the closures.
FlyingToaster
@japa21: Well, back when this was common, supposedly they’d have a bus take a load from precinct to precinct. So not 3 or 4, but 12-15, x40 per bus. Say 480 votes per bus, 20 busses, and you have your 1960 presidential win of JFK over Nixon (92 of 101 Illinois counties went for Milhouse).
scav
Jebus Haploid. I just thought: if voter fraud is so very very rampant, then our participation rate is even lower than it seems to be. Whooo, there’s that model of a democracy / republic shining before the whole world. Exports R US! And, have we again outsourced jobs ‘mercans won’t do to poorly paid others?
Humboldtblue
Oh, and in other really good news the recreational use and possession of marijuana in now officially legal in Oregon.
That means I can drive 90 minutes to the north stop at the Cannabis shop and purchase up to 8 ounces of sticky bud, four starter plants and seeds. Hopefully by this time next year or soon after I am typing out something very similar for the state of California.
By the end of next week Jerry Brown is expected to sign into law two measures that will more efficiently regulate medical marijuana and legalization proponents will use those standards to craft full legalization regulations as well.
Once Oregon’s full sales and production/processing taxes go into effect the state expects to generate about 30 million per year in tax revenue.
japa21
@FlyingToaster: When this was common? Never was. “Supposedly”? Yeah, it is all supposedly without any proof of fraud, including in the Kennedy win. No evidence was ever found to support fraud.
If you go purely on county, GOP would win most of the time in Illinois. That is a load of crap.
Humboldtblue
@Omnes Omnibus: But access is still readily available, the only thing that has been restricted is the number of places where you can acquire the necessary ID. I’m no lawyer but I can guess that the state’s lawyers will argue that access remains available if in fewer venues, but it’s still local and it’s still free and that that is sufficient to meet and Federal regulations.
As mentioned above the closing of the DMV offices is going to affect working poor far more than it will affect voter registration. Instead of taking an hour or two to go to the local DMV office now it will take upwards of a few hours to a day, something working poor can;t afford to do. Unless they use the online option.
schrodinger's cat
Its rich giving other countries a lecture on free and fair elections after the Florida debacle of 2000.
rikyrah
WHAT DA PHUQ?
Point of Entry
The Preschool-to-Prison Pipeline
October 8, 2015, 10:00am ET – 11:30am ET
High-quality early childhood education has the potential to improve long-term life outcomes for all children. In order to learn, however, students actually have to be in the classroom. At the same time that the United States is expanding access to high-quality early learning opportunities, alarming statistics suggest that these environments can serve as a point of entry to the school-to-prison pipeline, which most acutely affects African American children. For example, African American children represent 18 percent of all preschoolers but make up 42 percent of those suspended and nearly half of those suspended multiple times. Given the profound consequences that suspension, expulsion, and other zero-tolerance policies can have on very young children, it is time to change the national approach to preschool discipline. The growing movement to resist the criminalization of African Americans underscores the need to prevent schools from serving as a point of entry to the criminal justice system. The Center for American Progress and the National Black Child Development Institute will release a new report with recommendations on how to bring an end to preschool suspensions and expulsions.
https://www.americanprogress.org/events/2015/09/29/122395/point-of-entry-the-preschool-to-prison-pipeline/
burnspbesq
@FlyingToaster:
Still no presentation of evidence? Do you think we’re not noticing your inability/unwillingness to respond to requests for evidence?
Hungry Joe
When I used to vote at the polls instead of by mail, about half the time one of the poll watchers/volunteers knew me. It would have been … interesting if I’d tried to vote using someone else’s name. The “voter fraud” squad says that people do this thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, maybe MILLIONS of times each and every election. Yet no one ever seems to get caught: “Hey, I know you! You’re not Joe Shmo, you’re Ed Blow! VOTER FRAUD! VOTER FRAUD!”
ThresherK (GPad)
@Omnes Omnibus: “County clerk” has taken on a nefarious connotation of late. How long til a Christianist denies one these ID cards to a ni-clang?
SFAW
@Humboldtblue:
And that’s the issue.
If there’s only one place in a county (average size 780 sq mi in AL), and it is not open beyond normal working hours (for example, the Calhoun County Board of Registrars lists no office hours), then it prevents persons unable to leave work in the middle of the day from going there. It can also lead to longer lines than would otherwise be expected. As we saw in Ohio in 2004, this can affect outcomes.
Not sure why you feel a big need to defend AL’s actions. I guess we should be glad they haven’t (yet) tried to institute a poll tax or literacy test, right? Although I imagine you could find a way to explain to us why those are no big deal, either.
Omnes Omnibus
@Humboldtblue: Yes, you could argue that, but you would be wrong.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Humboldtblue:
I just read the rules on the AlabamaVotes.net website. If you already have a drivers license or state ID card, it is considered FRAUDULENT for you to also get a voter ID card.
Your drivers license or state ID needs to be current in order to vote using it, but you can’t get a voter ID card if it’s expired because that’s evidence of fraud.
Please tell us again how it’s no big deal that it will be more difficult for people to get or renew a DL or state ID card because they can just go get a free voter ID instead.
Hungry Joe
@FlyingToaster: The only problem with that scenario is that had Kennedy lost Illinois he still would have won the election: The electoral vote results were Kennedy 303, Nixon 219.
Omnes Omnibus
@Humboldtblue: The point is that access is not readily available.
SFAW
@Humboldtblue:
One hopes that you would realize that the second clause of your sentence contradicts your first clause.
Of course, your definition of “readily” is probably “whatever works for me,” as opposed to the people who will actually be affected.
rikyrah
But….I thought two White men and one Black man did it..
uh huh
Talking Points MemoVerified account
@TPM
Investigator: Illinois police officer was fatally shot with own weapon http://bit.ly/1KWYFxO
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@rikyrah:
Have you seen the New Yorker article about the volunteers trying to stop the violence in some of NYC’s worst projects? Not surprisingly, the NYPD and city prosecutor’s idea of “help” only managed to make things worse:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/05/a-daughters-death?intcid=mod-yml
burnspbesq
@Humboldtblue:
The relevant statutory language is “denial or abridgment.” If you want to argue that closing the offices in question does not abridge the ability of minority citizens to effectively engage in the electoral process, feel free.
Patricia Kayden
It’s just a coincidence, people. Sheesh. I mean why would you think that Republicans don’t want Negroes to vote? Just ask Ben Carson who is beloved by Republicans.
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-rise-of-ben-carson
Humboldtblue
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Sure, as soon as you point out where I made any argument even remotely similar to that. To save you time, you won’t find one.
@SFAW:
Read the above statement in response to Mnemosyne. I pointed out that the knee-jerk reaction to the closing of DMV offices as a deliberate attempt to disenfranchise voters is countered by the fact that the necessary ID is still available locally and it’s free.
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’m thinking the lawyers for the state of Alabama who have already gotten approval to require ID to vote will argue differently.
PIGL
@Roger Moore: I don’t think anybody fell for it, in the sense of truly believing it to have been true, and basing their actions upon this belief. The claim was a transparent, implausible fraud to provide an imaginary ass-covering fig leaf for the Republicans to offer Democratic Party Senators who did not wish to oppose the nomination.
FlyingToaster
@burnspbesq: The Baltimore Sun article wasn’t enough?
You go follow the links from Wikipedia then:
Vote Early and Vote Often
1960 Election
Snopes Discussion
SFAW
@FlyingToaster:
1962? Back when Dick Daley was running the show?
Shee-it, I thought you were talking about something relevant. Obviously I was wrong.
FlyingToaster
@Hungry Joe: Absolutely correct.
Texas was worse by every report, and there was a running joke amongst my inlaws (all Bostonian) about Cadillac trunks full of cash in West-by-God-Virginia.
burnspbesq
See also
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/09/voting_rights_act_sections_2_and_5_texas_defends_voter_id_laws.html
FlyingToaster
@SFAW: The three who got caught and were sacrificed to save every other ward heeler in the city.
Or the three who pissed off Giancana, so Daley had to pay up.
Omnes Omnibus
@Humboldtblue: I expect that they will make the argument you suggest, and I expect that they will lose.
Humboldtblue
@burnspbesq: Well sure, if I was trying to make an argument like that, but it appears you’re the one making the assertion. So please explain how the state of Alabama which states that access to ID needed to participate in the electoral process is available locally and is free, has disenfranchised residents who still have full access to the electoral process?
You and the others are conflating two points — the first that the closure of the DMV offices was done to disenfranchise minority voters, we all suspect that is the case. On the other hand access to the necessary ID is still available and that if we’re going to prove that the DMV closures were done for the reasons we suspect we have a hard case to prove.
Patricia Kayden
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m sure the DOJ is all over this right now. This is blatant voter suppression based on race. We’re going to see lots of shenanigans by Republicans between now and next November. Alabama needs to be made into an example to other Red States contemplating similar anti-Black voter suppression measures.
burnspbesq
@Humboldtblue:
Of course they will. And they can probably make that argument without subjecting themselves to Rule 11 sanctions. But the argument is borderline frivolous.
jayboat
@FlyingToaster:
Such stupid shit- wingnut voodoo mathematics.
If it HAD happened, someone, somewhere would have talked about it because it would take THOUSANDS of people to make even a slight dent in the numbers.
It’s bullshit just from a logistical standpoint. Who’s paying the bus drivers?
Idiot.
burnspbesq
@Humboldtblue:
Assumes facts not in evidence.
Humboldtblue
@Omnes Omnibus: Then how does the requirement for the need for any ID at all still remain on the books? If we were arguing over the point that voter ID laws are nothing more than suppression efforts, sure, you’d be on point. But voter ID laws are already in place in Alabama and the closure of state offices, while denying one outlet for access to the necessary ID has been shut off, they have been very careful to ensure that access is still maintained through county offices.
SFAW
@Humboldtblue:
I think FYWP limits us to only three links, so that can’t be done in full.
Yes, and repeating that statement does not really increase its truth value above zero, amazingly enough. On the other hand, it has been pointed out that eight of the 10 counties where the DMVs are being closed are more than 75 percent black. It has also been pointed out that, despite your attempts to claim otherwise, reducing the number of locations where the required ID is available.
Humboldtblue
@burnspbesq: How so? Access to free ID that can be used to participate is still available at the county level. That’s factual evidence staring us in the face.
This goes back to the fact that voter ID laws are in place. Unless we can remove them it’s my suspicion that the closing of the DMV offices will result in no Federal sanction. I could be wrong but I get the sinking feeling they have covered their asses with local access at the county level.
rikyrah
@Shakezula:
uh huh
uh huh
Humboldtblue
@SFAW:
Huh?
Are residents on those counties still able to get the necessary ID and is that ID free? If the answer is yes the closing of the DMV offices is a moot point. Despite the suspicion that the closings were done to make it harder for poor and minority residents to vote, they have maintained the local access and that’s the salient point. They could have closed every DMV office in state and left the ID issue at the county level and it wouldn’t change a thing. They have covered their asses by ensuring you can still get a free ID card needed to vote.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Humboldtblue:
You are only allowed to get the free ID IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A DRIVERS LICENSE OR STATE ID.
So saying that people who can’t renew their drivers license because there’s no DMV open nearby *can just get a free voter ID instead* is NOT TRUE.
Why do you keep making claims that are not true when you can actually read the rules from the state of Alabama as posted at AlabamaVotes.net? Click on the PDF and read for yourself.
(Edited between the asterisks because FYWP)
bemused
@Tommy:
Right. If voter fraud was rampant and easy to do on a massive scale, we’d all know how to do it intentionally without getting caught and charged with a felony.
smedley the uncertain
@Humboldtblue: So why is it that ONLY the predominantly black counties have had ALL their DMVs closed?
Humboldtblue
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): So saying that people who can’t renew their drivers license because there’s no DMV open nearby is NOT TRUE.
I’m thinking that was an incomplete statement.
I have to leave so please don’t think my lack of response is ignoring your responses.
Humboldtblue
@smedley the uncertain: Because they want to make it harder for poor and black people to vote. That’s why voter ID laws were enacted in the first place.
catclub
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): But if they do not renew their drivers license, then they will NOT have a drivers license. At that point they should qualify for the free ID. Yes?
I would feel like doing that just to yank the state’s chain. Then renew my drivers license.
SFAW
@Humboldtblue:
No longer “readily available”? Interesting.
@Humboldtblue:
Except it was probably the “outlet” with the greatest number of locations per county, as compared to ONE location – hours of operation unknown – which by its nature restricts the availability of access. There is only one county in AL (Talladega) which has more than one Board of Registrars. That means that the closing of however-many DMV offices turns it into a choke-point.
You can keep playing the “well, but they still have ACCESS” semantic game, while somehow ignoring the reality of the situation, but that’s your problem. Unfortunately, the reality is also a problem for blacks in AL.
RaflW
@Emma: I agree. That troll has thrown in with the racists and the stain is rather long-lasting.
FlyingToaster
@jayboat: The bus drivers voted too :)
My links are in moderation. I googled “cemetary voting” and “voting the dead Chicago 1960”, and then started following links from Wikipedia and snopes and ballotpedia, etc.
Honestly, I suspect this happened 3 or 4 times — I live near Boston, James Michael Curley does spring to mind — and in one election (again, dead link) in the 1850s an area in NY with 41,000 registered voters recorded 55,000 votes. I think that was a county, but without the link, I can’t pull up the actual data. Kudos to anyone who finds it.
In late 1960, before the Electoral College met, Joe Kennedy was listening to his son grouse about the work he had facing him, and told him, “Jack, if you don’t want the job, Daley’s still counting votes in Chicago.”
In modern (post-1980) times, political machines can’t vote the dead — it’s too easy to get caught. Most manipulation is done by suppressing the vote; either by timing the election (Coakley v Brown in the middle of fucking January) and by declining to provide transportation (Menino’s non-endorsement and no van pools of voters, same election), or by de-allocation of voting resources (putting 9 precincts into one venue, reducing early voting hours, removing voting equpiment from polling places, etc.).
The other real-world problem is simply hacking the counter; I saw exactly how to do it on the voting machine when I was a kid (after they were decommissioned), and if no-one examined the tape (it had a tickertape on a wheel), you’d pull it off. These days, unless you’re using a scanner-based system, it’s going to be a lot easier than removing a section of the back and turning some wheels, and getting the back reattached without the detail cop and precinct workers noticing you.
Omnes Omnibus
@Humboldtblue: Dude, at this point, I think you are being willfully obtuse.
SFAW
@Humboldtblue:
You keep saying that, because there is ONE outlet, it’s all good, no worries, etc. This is willful ignorance on your part.
You state in one breath that access is not restricted, and in the next you say that the restriction imposed by AL are no big deal.
I do not expect you to have any kind of epiphany regarding your self-contradictions and your ignorance of the reality of the situation. But your endless repetition of the same incorrect “argument” has only served to marginalize you.
Have a great time in Fantasyland.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Humboldtblue:
Yes, I had a FYWP moment. Statement has now been corrected with the correction in asterisks.
RaflW
@Humboldtblue:
IDs being “readily available” seems to pass the remotely similar smell test.
RaflW
@FlyingToaster:
OK, cite one.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@catclub:
As far as I can tell, unless you actually cancel your drivers license, you can’t have a previously issued one and a voter ID at the same time, even if the DL is expired, but I was doing a quick read on a cell phone, so we may need a lawyer-type to figure it out. What I was reading seemed to indicate that having both a DL or state ID card and a voter ID in your wallet was considered fraud.
Rafer Janders
@FlyingToaster:
Well, that’s proof enough for me. A moldy second-hand story about what one man supposedly said to another man, neither of whom you know, that supposedly happened 55 years ago. That clinches it.
BGinCHI
This is the worst troll we have had here in a really long time.
It would be interesting if voter fraud were a problem in this country, but it isn’t. My wingnut mother in law said the same thing to me a couple years ago and I said, really? Where is your evidence. She told me she knew it had happened in downtown Seattle.
Which means: “I heard it on Wingnut radio.”
THAT is the only arguments conservatives have. Heard it on the radio.
BGinCHI
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, his handle suggests he might be stoned to the bejesus belt.
SFAW
@FlyingToaster:
Let us know when you hit the 21st Century re: voter fraud. “Litigating” a 55-year-old case, especially one that has anything to do with The Mayor, adds about as much value to anything as arguing over whether Mario Mendoza should have a “line” named after him.
What are we up to? 27 case of verified voter fraud since 1999? (Probably not even that many.) Out of half a Billion votes cast in the Presidential elections alone? Yeah, that’s a pretty major problem.
Dick Daley. Right. Don’t forget “Boss” Tweed!
SFAW
@RaflW:
Well, technically, FT is right: you’ll find five or ten, not one, times that s/he argued that
SFAW
@BGinCHI:
Was probably when the Black Panthers
held the door forbeat up that little old lady.joel hanes
@FlyingToaster:
That was then. This is now.
The Illinois Democratic Party is still notable for corruption, but the dead no longer vote in significant numbers.
Legends outlive the reality on which they were originally based.
SFAW
I’m not sure why, but Humboldtblue’s “if there’s even ONE place available in a county, it’s all good” argument reminds of the “even ONE drop of black blood” argument from … actually, actually, from the era that FlailingToaster keeps talking about.
SFAW
@SFAW:
And, of course, “FT” should really be “Humboldtblue.” Let’s hope that’s the worst mistake I make today.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@FlyingToaster:
Strictly for amusement purposes, if you ever see Preston Sturges’ first film, “The Great McGinty,” the main character first comes to the attention of the political machine that eventually makes him governor because he’s the best multiple voter they’ve ever seen.
I think the city and state are unnamed, but they seem meant to be New York.
rikyrah
Also,
let’s talk about the EMPLOYEES of those closed Department of Motor Vehicle Offices. I’d like to know the demographics of those employees. I’d bet serious money, that the overwhelming majority of those employees – WHO NOW HAVE NO JOBS – ARE BLACK.
Which, of course, is THE POINT.
catclub
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Now I am curious. Link? Alabama voting regs? ID regs? DL regs?
That bit about being forbidden (by law) to carry two, presumably matching, IDs, certainly sounds crazy.
PIGL
regarding the defenders of vote suppression and the praisers of the virtues of country clerk’s offices, here’s a line from a little-known Canadian song:
“How come jerks don’t know they’re jerks?”
“I don’t know.”
shell
Wow, this doesnt even come up to the level of pathetic trolling.
catclub
@Humboldtblue:
I disagree with the poster who said this is willfully obtuse. If the known, standard, way to get a valid ID is the DL, then taking away
the DMV while still having ( an unadvertised) free, but not commonly known, ID, will still reduce the number of voters with valid ID.
boatboy_srq
Wow. Just wow. You’d think that if they were even trying to find a fig leaf for the VRA end run they’d have been less transparent. Perhaps if they’d closed all the bureaus outside the capital it would fly (though they’d never do that,
White People“Legitimate Voters” would complain), but this is just screaming for an ACLU/SPLC suit and they have to know they’d lose.@Belafon: That’s only significant if his robe is made from real Blacks.
FlyingToaster
@Rafer Janders: That was a joke.
Because there’s no way in Hell that Jack didn’t want the job.
Benw
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): making the rules to get free the ID byzantine also discourages people from seeking them out, and makes it more likely they’ll show up at the clerks office (if they get that far) with the wrong set of docs and get denied one. It’s on purpose, just like closing the DMVs in the “wrong” parts of town.
Omnes Omnibus
@BGinCHI: I’ll take your word for that.
Omnes Omnibus
@catclub: Why are you disagreeing with me?
FlyingToaster
@SFAW: I was responding to Tommy and burnspesq. Which I understand is a mistake, but Tommy was claiming that Illinois never had electoral fraud. And, back when I was a wee appliance, they still did.
I think claims of massive election fraud are all crap. If you’re going to rig an election in 201x, you control either a) access to voting at all or b) the machines that count the votes. Not the so-called cemetery vote.
@RaflW: Landslide Johnson
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@catclub:
I was able to pull the website up on my phone, and the PDFs I referred to are linked at the top:
http://www.alabamavotes.gov/
IANAL, so one of the actual lawyers here may have to read the PDF and tell us if my interpretation is correct. There’s a lot of scary, capitalized, in-bold wording about how it’s fraudulent to have both a drivers license and a voter ID.
goblue72
@cmorenc: Well, he’s a racist, so yeah, I think he’s actually suggesting that.
Humboldtblue
@SFAW: You have obviously missed huge chunks of this thread because that was just a ridiculous thing to type. If you get the chance read the thread because now you’re just writing bullshit in response to some imaginary words in your head.
The entire argument was that Alabama officials think they have covered their asses when it comes to access to the ID needed to vote. The closing of the DMV offices is another nail they have used to make it harder to pull open the door to a voting booth but the state still provides a way to get ID — online and in person along with mobile license renewal vans (they use those too) — and that’s the argument they will use if the Feds get involved. Stop claiming I am making arguments you yourself have created.
Humboldtblue
On another topic there has been a mass shooting at Umpqua community college in Roseburg Oregon. Upwards of 10 wounded and two dead
Grumpy Code Monkey
Hrm.
So, ignoring DLs as voter ID for the moment…
As Humboldtblue mentioned, AL allows you to renew online, which requires a valid CC. AL also allows renewals by mail, but only for military (and military dependants), college students away from home, or for people working out-of-state (AL DMV page).
If you don’t have a valid CC, you must renew in person. Driving to another county to stand in line for a couple of hours isn’t a great option for most working people, so over time expect to see more people in these counties driving on expired licenses, opening them up to fines (revenue!) and other legal problems.
IOW, I see this as less of an attempt at voter supression than a way to screw over lives in general.
Omnes Omnibus
@Humboldtblue: It has been explained to you again and again that, while AL may make those arguments, the arguments are unlikely to hold up in court.
TheronWare
Is it possible for Republicans to be any more subversive? Oh the treasonous bastards!
Omnes Omnibus
@Grumpy Code Monkey: Nah, it’s voter suppression first. Screwing people over is just a bonus.
goblue72
@SFAW: That’s his problem. He sees it as black-and-white (no pun intended – mostly) when the reality is that de facto abridgment of the franchise to vote is possible in spite of the “fact” that the franchise has not been abridged de jure. And one can certainly challenge an action by the government that results in de facto discrimination.
To take the situation several commenters have noted but ignored by HumboldtObtuse, if a state goes from providing access to the necessary ID to exercise the franchise at various locations around each county (the DMVs), to a situation with only a single point of access, and that access is an office that is one once a month, on a random date each month, for one hour, on an island surrounded by a moat filled with alligators such that you have to successfully swim across the moat unscathed, we could say that while the right to procure a free voter ID is technically available, it is so restricted in fact as to be no access at all.
Now roll that back, in steps. Remove the alligators. Is it available now? Remove the moat? Is it available now? And so forth. Facts and circumstances matter – and it is certainly conceiveable – and quite arguable – that providing a voter ID at just a single location, in large, rural counties with extremely limited public transit,open during hours unavailable to hourly wage workers, with limited to no posting of business hours, and doing so in predominantly black counties – all of which statistically results in a disproportionate impact on a protected class’ right to exercise the franchise, such that it has no other rational basis (let alone, a compelling state interest) but discrimination on the basis of race – well, at that point, yes Virginia, you aren’t all that far-fetched in arguing that Alabama just violated the Voting Rights Act.
Calouste
@BGinCHI: Seattle has had vote-by-mail since at least 2009.
boatboy_srq
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
Scratch everyone too poor or in too financially shaky situations to have a card. Does that include a valid debit card? If a DC is usable then it’s blacklisting anyone without a checking account; if not then it’s blacklisting anyone without credit. Neither is good but the targeting is slightly different.
So Those Other People can vote if they’re in the military (and hopefully stationed Somewhere Else), or at university (also Somewhere Else, this time so their precious tax dollars aren’t going to their eddycayshun), or working in some other state (and doesn’t that imply that permanent residency would be pending in that other state? This one sounds suspiciously like the petro worker on a rig off Louisiana or the lobbyist with the house in Mobile and a condo in NW).
Sounds like a twofer to me: h8 on Those People, and scr3w the poor, all at once.
Humboldtblue
@goblue72: Either read my comments or leave me out of your responses because you are not only misrepresenting the words I actually typed you’re pretending to have read words I have never typed. But please, tell us more about those alligators, that seems germane to the discussion.
SFAW
@Humboldtblue:
You have obviously pretended that huge chunks of your “argument” don’t say what they, in fact, say. This has been pointed out to you by a number of people here. And yet, you keep coming back, after saying “A,” and trying to claim “I never said ‘A’!” As better persons than I have hinted at, you are being willfully obtuse. It’s either that, or you’re intellectually dishonest (which in itself is a form of being willfully obtuse.)
Unfortunately – or maybe fortunately – I don’t have the time to dissect, yet again, all your logically fallacious or self-contradictory statements — my son graduates high school in two years, and I want to be there.
So, please, feel free to keep playing the “what I JUST SAID is not really what I just said.”
If ignorance is bliss, then I expect you’re a lot happier than if you had smoked about two ounces.
Humboldtblue
@SFAW: Oh go fuck yourself with a hanging chad you blithering fuckstick. You haven’t dissected a fucking thing, you were wrong with your first comment in reference to me and you’ve continued to be wrong. so here’s a coke, now fuck off.
SFAW
@Humboldtblue:
Oh, sod off, whiner. You can’t even represent your OWN arguments consistently, and then you complain when people point out the obvious (to everyone but you, apparently) contradictions you spout.
catclub
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
I looked and did not see any of those scary bits. Page number? which pdf?
The bold stuff I saw said that if you HAD a a valid DL, or other valid ID, you did not need the voter card and could not get one for free.
It was on pages 9 and 10 of this: photo-voter-id-rules_FINAL.pdf
SFAW
@Humboldtblue:
Well, nice to see you respond more intelligently than the rest of your imbecilic comments
Get bent, you lying, intellectually dishonest dumbfuck with literacy problems. Far better persons than I have pointed out your inconsistencies, and yet you keep trying to claim that none of us understands.
That’s OK. We understand inconsistent morons fairly well, and you’re an excellent example of one.
So, to respond in kind: your head is so far up your ass that you can count your ribs from the inside.
I’d suggest that you go back to third grade for remedial reading and writing, but I’m afraid that would be pointless, and the teacher would kill him/herself because YOU’RE THAT FUCKING CLUELESS.
Have a great life being stupid.
Grumpy Code Monkey
@Omnes Omnibus:
I don’t think he’s ever said (or implied) that they will, just that the state of AL thinks that they will.
Two different things,
Howlin Wolfe
@A guy: You just hold on to that truthy little factoid, a troll. The actual facts don’t matter as long as you can keep your spurious “principles”, right? Voter fraud is like Saddam Hussein’s WMD’s – an excuse to commit horrible deeds against people who did nothing to harm you. You just keep fuckin’ that chicken, asshole.
HumboldtBlue
@SFAW: I see you’re still here sucking my dick. You were wrong from the fucking git-go and you’re still wrong you caterwauling cockwhistle. Here’s some lube as you continue to fuck yourself with that hanging chad.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@catclub:
Wrong one — it’s the voter ID guide. I can’t pull up PDFs on my phone right now, but it’s in the guide meant for voters.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@catclub:
Bottom of p.8 to top of p.9:
“Please note that applicants are instructed not to complete the application for a free Alabama photo voter ID card if they already possess one of the valid forms of photo identification. Any falsification or fraud in completing the application shall constitute a Class C felony (see page 13).”
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@catclub:
Also, too, the process seems to say that you have to already be a registered voter in order to get a voter ID card, which is an interesting catch-22. Only a limited number of locations will let you register and get your card at the same time.
Grumpy Code Monkey
@boatboy_srq:
From the online renewal page:
Says nothing about debit cards, although knowing what little I know about debit and credit card networks, fees, and other associated nonsense, I’d suspect debit cards are not accepted.
So, going through the list of AL DMV offices, I’m noticing something interesting. Most of the ones no longer offering DL services are only open one day a week, usually close by 2:30 or 3:00, and are closed for lunch. That suggests to me that the budgetary arguments hold some water, and that’s why these particular offices were picked. Those corresponding counties have smallish populations (9-10,000 range).
Not saying it isn’t an attempt at voter supression, but the more I look at it, the less I’m convinced that’s the primary motivation.
SFAW
@HumboldtBlue:
Well, even if I were so inclined, I don’t think I could make my mouth small enough, and I don’t have a powerful-enough magnifying glass to be able to find yours in the first place.
I feel so, SO bad that I hurt your feelings, you poor, delicate little flower. My tears will, no doubt, start flowing any second. Maybe yer momma can help you feel better by giving you that blowjob you kept asking her for, but she wouldn’t give you. On the other hand, I didn’t have to ASK her, if you know what I mean.
Come back when you grow a set, you candy-assed whiner. Until then, you’re probably better suited for the Barbie fan site, or maybe My Little Pony. I just hope they aren’t as mean to you as the rest of us have been. Although I bet their ability to express themselves coherently may be a little too much for your paper-thin skin.
Omnes Omnibus
@Grumpy Code Monkey: Actually, he has stated that he thinks that the state making those arguments would would be sufficient for this action to pass muster. He has also implied it a few times as well.
burnspbesq
The District Court opinion in the Texas voter ID case contains extremely detailed findings of fact, which the Fifth Circuit, try as it might, couldn’t conclude were clearly erroneous. It’s in effect the playbook for challenging the sort of subtle attempts to disenfranchise minority voters that we are observing in Alabama.
https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legal-work/Order.pdf
As I see it, proving discriminatory effect is the next best thing to a slam dunk. Fashioning an effective remedy is going to be the tricky part.
The other interesting thing is whether the District Court is going to be willing to infer discriminatory intent from the “coincidental” closing of offices in the counties with the greatest African-American voting-age populations. A finding of discriminatory intent allows the court to “bail-in” Alabama back into pre-clearance.
PurpleGirl
@Tommy: I’m very late to the thread but I was out for a few hours… My housing complex has its own polling place in one of its community rooms. It takes me longer to walk across the yard to get to the other building than it does to actually vote.
Cervantes
@HumboldtBlue:
@SFAW:
Yikes.
Maybe start over?
Cervantes
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Did you see any there that are not meant for voters?
SFAW
@Cervantes:
Yeah, my last one was beyond-the-pale, even by my standards.
Sorry, HumboldtBlue. I should know better than to write shit like that.