This is amusing:
Wallace pointed out that Cheney had eight years to deal with Iran’s nuclear program and failed to do it.
“You and President Bush, the Bush-Cheney administration, dealt with Iran for eight years, and I think it was fair to say that there was never any real, serious military threat,” Wallace noted. “Iran went from zero known centrifuges in operation to more than 5,000.”
“So in fairness, didn’t you leave — the Bush-Cheney administration — leave President Obama with a mess?” the Fox News host asked.
“I don’t think of it that way,” Cheney replied. “There was military action that had an impact on the Iranians, it was when we took down Saddam Hussein. There was a period of time when they stopped their program because they were scared that what we did to Saddam, we were going to do to them next.”
“But the centrifuges went from zero to 5,000,” Wallace pressed.
“Well, they may have well have gone but that happened on Obama’s watch, not on our watch,” Cheney wrongly insisted.
“No, no, no,” Wallace fired back. “By 2009, they were at 5,000.”
“Right,” Cheney grumbled. “But I think we did a lot to deal with the arms control problem in the Middle East.”
I seriously think Cheney is suffering from pumphead and dementia at this point. In the past, his lies would be passable and crafted with enough deft that reporters could move along, but he has since passed that stage and now his only argument is “things were better when we were in charge.” That’s it. That’s all he’s got.
And one more time- Iran wasn’t scared into not pursuing a weapons program, they were encouraged to continue to develop one because of the invasion of Iraq. As one of the three countries in the so-called axis of evil, they saw what happened to Iraq, a country that stopped pursuing WMD and destroyed most of theirs to make us happy, they saw what didn’t happen to the nuclear armed North Korea that continues to develop WMD unabated for the most part, and made the decision any despotic regime would. The Bush administration incentivized having nuclear weapons. You can argue the Iranian regime is evil, but they aren’t stupid.
In other Iran news, this is a big deal:
Representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee, announced on Sunday that she will support the nuclear agreement with Iran that has roiled many in her Florida district.
“I’ll be casting my vote to support the deal and if necessary sustain the president’s veto,” she told Jake Tapper on “State of the Union” on CNN. While she called it a “gut-wrenching” decision-making process that caused her “angst and pause,” she concluded that the agreement would “put Iran years away from being a threshold nuclear state.”
The congresswoman choked up emotionally as she talked about the difficulty of the decision as a “Jewish mother” and the first Jewish woman elected to the House from Florida.
“There’s nothing more important to me as a Jew than to ensure that Israel’s existence is there throughout our generations,” she said.
She added, “There is no way that we would be able to ensure that better than approving this deal.”
In a separate interview, former Secretary of State Colin L. Powell endorsed the agreement as well, calling it “a pretty good deal” that includes a “very vigorous” inspection system and imposes significant restrictions on Iran.
“These are remarkable changes,” Mr. Powell, who broke with Republicans to vote for Mr. Obama in 2008 and 2012, said on “Meet the Press” on NBC. “And so we have stopped this highway race that they were going down — and I think that’s very, very important.”
Big not in the numbers sense, but big because it was a politically difficult vote for her. As to Powell, who cares what he thinks.
redshirt
Wha? Chris Wallace, of Fox News, pushing back against The Dark Lord?
Trump really has changed the game.
redshirt
Also,
Is she not a Jew when she’s supporting the country she lives in and heck, is elected to support?
Benw
Dick Cheney suuuuuuuuuucks.
Colin Powell had a chance to do the right thing and he blew it.
JDM
Translation of Representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz’s statement: “Please, please, PLEASE don’t fire me as head of the DNC!”
My advice: fire her anyway.
Baud
“You see, the Iranians anticipated that our historic incompetence would lead to the election of a weak Democratic president, which is why they felt comfortable developing those centrifuges. So even if the Iran’s actions chronologically occurred during our watch, it is still appropriate to blame Obama.”
Aleta
There’s no end date on deals made with the devil.
SiubhanDuinne
@JDM:
Yeah, pretty much this. I mean, I’m glad she finally decided to support the Iran deal — however emotional and angst-y the decision may have been for her — but just because she’s doing the right thing now doesn’t excuse the fact that she’s been a shit DNC Chair, and arguably gave us a much bigger minority than we should have had.
blackcain
You need to pick which country you’re rooting for, U.S. or Israel. Jeezus. I *suppose* if America went to shit, as jew, you can always move to Israel.
In any case, I blame Debbie with the state of things.. can we have Howard Dean back? I’m still pissed that he is persona non-grata in the Democratic party. The person who actually effectively had a plan against the Republicans.
Betty
“Made the decision any despotic regime would.” You mean like the US and Israel? (Sorry I couldn’t resist.)
Rick Fane
Not to mention that, by taking out Saddam, team Bush/Cheney relieved Iran of their bitter enemy and a constant threat. They also increased Iran’s power and influence in the entire region, including a major part of Iraq.
Let’s not forget that during the First Gulf War, Cheney very clearly articulated a long list of very good reasons for not invading Iraq. History has shown that his warnings were very accurate. As we now know.
Cheney on why not to invade Iraq
SiubhanDuinne
@blackcain:
Have never understood the hate for Howard Dean. I’ve always admired his smarts and enjoys his enthusiasm.
SiubhanDuinne
Off-line for a while, iPad is out of battery and I’m far from a power source at the moment. Later.
SRW1
@Baud:
Don’t know about the chances of Baud 2016, but you are at least VP material.
Chris
He and the entire clique around the Bushes (“the Vulcans”) went from “we’re only liberating Kuwait, we can’t invade Iraq, because the last thing we want is total regime collapse that would destroy the only buffer separating our Gulf allies from Iran and Syria” in 1991, to “it’ll be a cake walk, and we’ll be in and out in months” in 2003, so he’s been getting worse for some time.
MikeBoyScout
And this incompetent POS with 9-11 on his watch still gets book deals & airtime as some sort of national security expert.
MF-er should be serving time as a war criminal.
Heliopause
Why does that have anything to do with it? Does Keith Ellison weep on the House floor about how difficult his decisions are as a Muslim father? If he does, fuck them both.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@SiubhanDuinne: The Howard Dean who said Obama should walk away from the Iran talks in April?
Dean’s a smart guy, but he’s a bit too full of himself sometimes. (In this case, maybe Obama and Kerry knew what they were doing, perhaps?)
Cheers,
Scott.
blackcain
I so want to fire her ass.. the debacle of 2010 is all her fault. She just doesn’t seem to understand how to get democrats elected in local offices and we can’t seem to get good candidates rising in the ranks. We need more people like Obama.
RandomMonster
Great paragraph, JC.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
A whole lot of tote-baggers.
Good for Chris Wallace. The entire cast of Morning Joe should be embarrassed to appear on a program that even invited Cheney, but instead, they’re getting an extra hour. I just hope the rumor about Chris Hayes being replaced by Willie Geist is somebody’s idea of a September Fool’s joke.
David Koch
yet “True Progressive” Alan Grayson refuses to endorse the deal, even though his primary opponent Pat Murphy already has.
blackcain
Looks like divorce rates around evangelicals are higher than for anyone else. Check it here
War on marriage my ass.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@blackcain: Um, DWS became DNC chair on May 4, 2011. How is 2010 her fault?
Cheers,
Scott.
Baud
@SRW1:
Thank you. Some days I like to look in the mirror and tell myself that I am worth a bucket of warm spit.
benw
@Baud:
So even if the 9/11 attacks chronologically occurred during our watch, it is still appropriate to blame Obama.
So even if the Great Recession chronologically occurred during our watch, it is still appropriate to blame Obama.
So even if X chronologically occurred during our watch, it is still appropriate to blame Obama.
Kyle
Nothing more important? Like, maybe, the well-being of the country which you are “serving” as an elected representative?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I’m genuinely surprised The Hill didn’t mention Dean’s relationship with MEK in that piece.
Baud
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
What about the time-warping theme of the blame game do you not understand?
Chris
No conversation about the Bush administration and Iran’s nukes is complete without noting the “Grand Bargain” proposal. In 2003, in the run-up to the Iraq War, the Iranians reached out to Washington and proposed to begin negotiations on all the major issues between the two countries, including Iran’s nuclear program and support for Hamas and Hezbollah. The Bushies… simply ignored it.
They actually had a position of strength and a window of opportunity where they could’ve gotten a good deal with Iran (whether this was because the Iranians were spooked by the upcoming invasion of Iraq is anyone’s guess, but it’s certainly possible). They just weren’t interested in a deal. Any deal.
Anyone who believes Republicans are serious when they say “look, it’s not that we don’t want a deal, but this is a bad deal” need look no further than this.
David Koch
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Sadly, since Howard left the DNC he became a lobbyist for the MEK
http://www.mojahedin.org/linksen/1585/Howard-Dean-We-must-not-sell-out-MEK-over-nuke-deal
blackcain
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
Well, I’m not sure about his foreign diplomacy skills, but his skills in getting votes is what I was really supporting.
Obama is way smarter than Howard,
blackcain
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
I stand corrected, I thought she was active in 2009.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
So you’re saying we need a jump to the left a la Dean, not a step to the right with DWS?
I’m not even gonna get into the pelvic thrust that drove the Village insay-yay-yay-yane.
Comrade Luke
Might as well stop there. Sums up everything .
blackcain
@Baud:
Well if she wasn’t DNC chair at that time then I won’t blame her. But hey, let’s do the time warp again and perhaps I will blame Clinton instead!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@blackcain: but his skills in getting votes is what I was really supporting.
I don’t know if I wanna bring back all the factors– three and a half years of the Iraq War, Katrina, Delay-Abramoff, Mark Foley, Abu Grahib, Harriet Miers, six years of Bush-Cheney all together– that made it look like Dean was such a skilled pol in 2006. But if the Republicans want to take another run at Social Security privatization, and they do, that’s okay with me.
blackcain
@David Koch:
Poor bastard had to make a living. I wish he had found some other group. Maybe I could interested him in Free Software instead?
Mike in NC
@MikeBoyScout: Cheney may actually never die. He has had many replacement parts installed and is the closest thing to date to qualify as the evil Bionic Man.
Frankensteinbeck
Neocon foreign policy in a nutshell. Cheney is a True Believer. Your facts are at best irrelevant. He KNOWS what works, and it’s beating up ner- uh, invading foreign countries until they worship us.
rk
I had no idea that people without a heart and pulse can live for so long. Will we never be rid of this monster?
blackcain
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The thing is, he had a 50 state strategy, a strategy that Obama himself adopted. He also was the first to use the Internet to do that kind of thing. So, I think the fact that he had a strategy that said we aren’t going to give up on any state regardless of red or blue was sound. I know that when reading a similar thing on reddit that many people felt that they were not ignored by the DNC just because they were in a red state.
So, yes there are other factors, but let’s focus just on the strategy itself. I think trying to make an attempt to win every state, to say Democrats have something that will help all Americans is a sound strategy and we should continue to make red states important.
David Koch
@blackcain: he’s a millionaire. When he ran for president in 2004 his financial disclosure form indicated net worth in excess of $6 million. Plus, his wife is a successful doctor.
I love him, but he really didn’t have to do this.
redshirt
@Chris:
Agreed 100%. The Iranians were making active gestures of rapprochement post 9/11 and the Bush admin basically spit on it.
We lost so much not only as a country but for the entire world in those horrid 8 years. And to think – it could get worse! FSM help us the next time Republicans take the White House.
benw
@efgoldman:
Well, this thread is all about fucking up chronology, so you might as well take credit for the joke anyway.
@Frankensteinbeck: NEEEEEEEEERDS!
redshirt
I would love to see Dick Cheney answer a question on the failure of his Administration in stopping 9/11.
David Koch
@redshirt: Some one should ask him why was he watching the tower burn nonchalantly, kicking back in his office with his legs up on the desk, like someone watching late night comedy.
imagine the outrage if Gore or Biden had done that.
redshirt
@David Koch: Indeed. There’s all kinds of questions I’d like to ask Dick Cheney. Fat chance they ever get asked.
blackcain
@David Koch:
It’s not about the money, it’s about staying relevant and having influence. But in any case, I’m over Dean, although I would like to see the piece of the 50 state strategy implemented yet again.
Mike J
@redshirt:
We have ways of making him talk.
benw
@Mike J: Well, that’s ironic.
redshirt
@Mike J: Does Cheney still get Secret Service protection?
joel hanes
@blackcain:
Perhaps you have confused DWS with two-term DCCC chair Steve Israel, who deserves all the contempt you have expressed.
Not that DWS doesn’t —
Ivan X
@Kyle:
She’s representing a district constituency that has many Jews, a significant portion of whom are elderly (and therefore vote, and trend conservative on Israel), and she is voting against what many of them want. She’s speaking to them, not you. (Family’s also culturally important to them, which is why the business about being a Jewish mother.)
That’s why she said Israel’s continued existence is of primary importance to her “as a Jew” and not “as an American,” for which she may well have had a different ordering of priorities. You may see it as craven, but part of the job of a representative is to represent, and that’s what she’s doing here.
rikyrah
@David Koch:
You do know that Dean is Dean of Dean Witter. He’s never hurt a day in his life.
Mandalay
@Heliopause:
Absolutely nothing. I have had it with DWS. She should have been out supporting the deal with Iran two months, and dragging anyone sitting on the fence over to President Obama’s side by the scruff of the neck.
She has bragged about how she has had gold plated access to everyone in high office over understanding the terns and conditions of the deal, yet it still took her all this time to reach a decision? How much time does anyone need to reach a decision on anything once all the facts are on the table?
And the tear jerking saga of her having to listen to the voters in her heavily Jewish district is so much bullshit. Her district is 15% Jewish, which makes it 85% gentile. And it is so solidly Democratic that even if every Jewish voter didn’t show up the Republicans still couldn’t win her seat.
I can forgive but not forget her disastrous performance as DNC chair, and her ham-fisted attacks that backfire, and do the Democrats more harm than good. All of that is just down to her being an incompetent politician. But I can’t forgive her taking this long to come out in support of the deal. She is dangerously close to being a traitorous piece of shit who puts Israel before the United States.
But every cloud has a silver lining. Having spent so long dithering before reluctantly supporting the president means that both sides now hate her guts, which is exactly how things should remain.
Mike J
@rikyrah:
So his name is Howard Dean G Witter? Yes, his father worked at Dean Witter, and wasn’t poor, but the Dean of Dean Witter is a first name, not a last.
I’m no fan of his (or of this year’s version), but he’s not that Dean.
catclub
1. I noted this in an earlier thread: The Saudis have said that the Iran deal is not that bad. I think that is a somehwat big deal.
http://www.juancole.com/2015/09/israels-netanyahu-supports.html
2. I think Donald Trump should be asked if he supports the muscular foreign policy of Dick Cheney. Or if he will have Cheney as his VP candidate.
David Koch
@redshirt: why would the undead need Secret Service protection?
sinnedbackwards
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Ever see The Capitol Steps do the “Ronnie Horror Picture Show”?
“Just a jump to the right, just a jump to the right…”
GregB
Cheney’s pump-head has turned to Dick-head.
dww44
@rikyrah: Golly, I had forgotten that. But I still miss the guy’s leadership as head of the DNC. He actually came to my small very southern city for a State Democratic meeting. He went around to all the states and supported the Democrats at that level. I was impressed. Never seen hair nor hide of DWS nor any other DNC chair in these parts. Just Howard Dean.
joel hanes
@Mandalay:
had it with DWS … [ list of malfeasance ]
Missing from the list are the free passes that she arranges for her corrupt Cuban Republican friends the Diaz-Balarts and Ros-Lehtinen. Yes, it’s Florida and Cubans, but they’re Republicans and she has worked consistently to ensure that they have no significant Democratic oppositon.
jonas
@redshirt: Eh, occasionally Wallace decides to turn the screws on a Republican bigshot. He can get away with it because he’s on Fox, and, unlike Megyn Kelly, boasts a Penis of Invulnerability that can’t bleed when you expose the ignorance of male blowhards on national television, but it is nice to behold nonetheless.
joel hanes
@dww44:
I used to say and believe that as DNC, Dean did his best to build independent grassroots Democratic party structures in every state, perhaps not very controllable from the Beltway, but indigenous and self-feeding — and then in the Obama era, all that organization and those mailing lists were centralized into the national party, and the state parties allowed to wither.
Our most excellent Dem activist Kay contested this view, and she knows far more than I, so that narrative is probably not a reliable guide to reality.
redshirt
@David Koch: Smart vampires use thugs just like any other gangster.
redshirt
Cheney’s more like Darth Vader than the undead, though. Just to clarify.
smintheus
@Ivan X: Her job is to uphold her oath of office. It doesn’t involve serving and protecting a foreign state. To say that she views protecting Israel’s interests as her job ought to be abhorrent.
redshirt
@efgoldman: Anakin didn’t die when he became D. Vader (R – Courascant), he just needed machines to replace several of his bodily functions. Like Cheney.
22over7
Question. On a previous thread people talked about how the DNC left Ohio and Wisconsin dry. Same with New Mexico. Seems to me like the DNC has not been active in party-building, and that OFA hasn’t helped strengthen state or local democrat races. We may be able to win the White House, sure, but where is the strategy to win the House and Senate, Governorships, state house seats? Am I missing something?
Ivan X
@smintheus:
Only she didn’t say that.
joel hanes
@22over7:
In one narrow situation, maybe.
IMHO, had Obama gone to Wisconsin during the Madison protests, it would have made Walker stronger, and that’s why Obama didn’t go.
Gene108
@22over7:
Seems to me each state Democratic Party is on its own and it has been this way for as long as I can remember.
When Democrats started losing races in the 1990’s, in Southern states, there was no life line extended as Republicans started sucking up all the campaign cash in respective states from donors.
Unless the Democrats go big on a $15/hr minimum wage, lowering the cost of college, etc they have no shot. I think many people’s default setting, which has become more intense after the losses and insecurity caused by the Great Recession, is “fuck it, government does not work for me”, so why support either Party.
Works for Relhblicans, because they have built the Fundies into a consistent voting block that low turn out elections favor them.
Adam L Silverman
John,
Not only did the Bush 43 Administration not deter Iran, they didn’t deter North Korea. They got really serious in 2003 and left the nuclear non proliferation treaty regime that year. North Korea achieved nuclear weapons breakout capability in 2006 with a successful test. In 2009 they announced that they’d built a complete nuclear missile. Fortunately their missile tech isn’t that good.
So 0 for 2 for Bush/Cheney in nuclear deterrence maters.
David Koch
@Gene108: that’s a complete misreading. Dem groups do show up during general elections. They don’t show during midterms. Republicans groups (IE old whites and gun nutz) show up every time. Free college and a higher minimum wage isn’t going to change
racistresentful whites into lefties.That said, if would be great if those policies were passed.
Matt McIrvin
@blackcain: A high divorce rate is generally correlated with a high marriage rate, and with marriage at an early age. You can see that in state-by-state statistics: the states with a lot of evangelicals have more and earlier marriage, and also more divorce. In the deep-blue states people generally put off marriage until later, and more people don’t marry at all, but divorce rates are lower too.
If I recall correctly, there was a mild exception in some places like Minnesota where marriage rates were high and divorce rates were low.
workworkwork
@redshirt: Not to mention Saddam offered to abdicate and leave peacefully.
gratuitous
Thread tl;dr. But I will echo anyone who notices that Iran saw what happened to Iraq (unprovoked invasion) and what happened to North Korea (nothing), and concluded that their best option in the interest of national security was to develop nuclear capability.
karen marie
@JDM: Amen, or r’amen, as the case may he.
Anne Laurie
@Heliopause:
“Everybody knows” that fathers don’t have feelings, nor probably Muslims either. But a female politician who doesn’t apologize for her mommy-status (and probably her ethnicity) is a cold, sick sociopath who should be turned out of office in the next election if she can’t be impeached immediately.
Not saying I agree with DWS’s voting behavior, but she has to dress up her choices in a way that a man in the same position wouldn’t.
karen marie
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: To be fair, the DNC chair after Dean and before DWS was the utterly forgettable – and forgotten – Tim Kaine.
NobodySpecial
DWS is just another seatwarmer making sure those ebil ‘progressives’ don’t get the chance to shove another Howard Dean in a chair of position. They left the barn door open once, and the result was Emanuel having to spend all his energy shoving Dean out the door and taking belated credit for the 50 state strategy he hated. They won’t let that happen again in my lifetime.
Zinsky
Schulz is an absolutely terrible chairperson for the DNC. She apparently thinks she is there to represent Israel, not the U.S. If the Dems lose in 2016, which is looking more and more possible, she should bear a heavy amount of the blame!
BobS
Who cares what Colin Powell thinks? You did when you were a cheerleader for his fucking war.
Gin & Tonic
@BobS: A post from 12 1/2 years ago? Really?
BobS
@Gin & Tonic: You’re right, what could I have been thinking? 12 years is such a long time ago (a whole fucking lifetime for a lot of people dead as a result of that unnecessary war). However, I can certainly appreciate how an apologist for fascists (as are the neo-conservatives who delivered us that war) would want to overlook inconveniences of the past. You realize Gore Vidal had people like you in mind when he referred to “The United States of Amnesia”?
Ivan X
@BobS:
How many mea culpas are required from Cole for you to accept him for who he is today? He’s certainly offered them in abundance, over years. How many people do you know, period, who have had the strength and courage to allow themselves a profound shift in identity, and publicly acknowledge the wrongness of things they said and did as a result of their old one? He’s done that too. As a newly minted Democrat with a popular now-left leaning blog, hasn’t he used his platform to actually raise money to elect candidates, which is arguably the most important thing that they need? What more could he possibly do to relieve you of the need to rake him over the coals for sins long atoned for?
FortGeek
@redshirt:
Makes me wonder who Cheney’s Emperor is. At least Vader had an excuse, having been drawn and manipulated into the Dark Side.
I think Cheney was just born twisted and evil.
BobS
@Ivan X: Cole is the one who asked “who cares” about what Powell thinks–which I’m guessing more than a few here did care a helluva lot about when he endorsed Obama in 2008 & 2012 — not me. I’m not so sure that a link to something he posted in 2003 can be construed as a “rake…over the coals” — however, the fact is Cole was a fucking asshole with respect to the shitload of posts he put up (in 2003 and later) denigrating the people who were ultimately right about a war that continues to pay dividends, not only in Iraq but in Syria, with ISIL, etc. (by the way, that would be more of a “rake…over the coals”)
BobS
@Ivan X: As I thought :2008 & 2012.
drkrick
@FortGeek:
He was probably born selfish and self-serving, but according the John Perry Barlow of the EFF, who was active in the Wyoming GOP when Cheney was the state’s only member of Congress, he was a very different person before the heart attacks started. He was probably medically unfit for his various responsibilities for at least the last 15 years of his career. The country will be paying for that for the rest of my life at least.
Gin & Tonic
@BobS: The point which went over your head is that people can learn and change over 12 years. Some don’t, of course, but some do.
BobS
@Gin & Tonic: A point that defines the shape of your head.
worn
@BobS: In a more charitable reading, one might assume that a person, aftter trusting a much-respected (at the time) authority’s presentation of “evidence” provided as justification in convincing our nation into entering into an unnecessary & ill-considered war of choice, and then having that “evidence” turn out to be completely bogus, might in fact be justified in saying “Who cares?” what said person subsequently says. I sure know that someone who lies to me is someone I subsequently won’t care to listen to about much of anything.
But then again, I see nothing in your posts that imply a charitable nature. Others of us were raised with the notion of forgiveness being a positive character trait.
YMMV…
worn
Oh wait, nevermind. I just followed your link. Didn’t realize you were BobinPortland. ‘Twas a mistake to engage…
BobS
@worn: “subsequently won’t care to listen to about much of anything’, except when he endorses ‘my guy’ for president long after his prevarications have been exposed (to those foolish enough to trust him in the first place).@worn: Not BobinPortland. Just another guy sharing unwelcome news about the fascists that get so much love here.
JayDee
Pity Chris Wallace couldn’t muster the bravery to correct Cheney on his veracity at any time when W and he were actually in charge, or for 7 of the 8 years of the Obama reign.
You know, when knowing the truth WRT to 9/11, Bin Laden, Iraq, etc. might have actually made a difference to someone, like our soldiers, or the American public in deciding several elections, or the Obama administration, or the other peoples of the world, or his fellow pretenders masquerading as representatives of the press. All this shows is that Wallace is still carrying water even now for The Biggest Dick Ever, and his faithful lapdog, George The Incurious, yet somehow still considers himself a newsman in spite of it, as opposed to the propaganda whore he actually is.
Pathetic is the only word to describe Wallace The Younger. He has no right to consider anything he or his network has done anything to be proud of. If it were possible to indict members of the press for “dereliction of duty” and “negligent homocide”, I’d put his name up near the top of the list, along with most every other reporter and opinion host on FOXNews, and most the other networks as well.
Cheney and Bush should both be serving life in prison right now, and we have people like Chris Wallace largely to thank for the fact they aren’t, and we still are forced to listen to their lies.
Gin & Tonic
@BobS: That’s a clever retort, for middle school.
BobS
@Gin & Tonic: Exactly the audience I was aiming at.
Ivan X
@BobS:
Yeah, and he has acknowledged the error of his ways and apologized for them, multiple times. So, can you answer any of the questions I asked? I understand that he said those things. I also understand that he now sees what was wrong about them. What more would he actually have to do to be, in your eyes, forgiven?
(And yes, I do think bringing up something that someone has said or done that they have since sincerely apologized for and subsequently demonstrated that sincerity in their words and actions does in fact amount to “raking over the coals.” Or at least it seems like a shitty way to treat that person.)
West of the Cascades
BobS: a troll, or just stupid? It’s a very strange way to look at the world to believe that, once someone has taken a position or expressed an opinion, it is verboten to ever change that position or opinion based on new facts, and that no matter what someone does after they take a position or express an opinion, they should be crucified for their original position or opinion. Sort of a condemnation of flip-floppery taken to the nth degree. And the shorter “once a fascist, always a fascist, and anyone who voices support for the flip-flopper is a fascist” … well, I do not think that word means what you think it means.
BobS
@Ivan X:Forgiven does not mean forgotten. Regardless of that, I’m not the person who Cole (or the criminals he continued to approve of well into the war) needs forgiveness from. In any event, I’m unclear as to exactly when it was that Cole did stop not only caring but also citing approvingly what Colin Powell thinks. Obviously he cared a lot in 2003. He continued to care in 2008 & 2012. I’m guessing he’ll care again if&when Powell supports HRC against whatever lunatic the Republicans run in 2016.
With regard to what you consider to be “raking over the coals”, you remind me of my children complaining that I “yelled” at them whenever I delivered an edict they didn’t want to hear.
BobS
@West of the Cascades: I’m not sure what that last sentence is supposed to mean (I don’t think you do either), but since it’s clearly hard for you to both read & comprehend with just the shine of a dim bulb, here’s a little light:
Stepan Bandera
Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists
Svoboda
Right Sector
Ivan X
@BobS:
If you continue to issue edicts to your kids for things they’ve already apologized for and changed their behavior around, then I’m not terribly impressed by your parenting.
If you had only brought up 2008 and 2012 Cole’s comments on Powell, that would be one thing, but you also brought up 2003 Cole, and after that called him a motherfucking asshole for what he said then, which he has already called himself in one form or another for same.
So, I’ll try one more time — what would he have to do to warrant not being held to account by you in perpetuity for wrongs he has since apologized for and changed his ways around? (Or are you just arguing for the right to say whatever you feel like regardless of whether it contains any decency or respect?)
BobS
@Ivan X: I believe I yelled that he was “a fucking asshole” while raking him over the coals.
He said what he fucking said. He can apologize from now until forever (and again, I’m not the one he and everyone else who cheered on the criminals needs to apologize to), but he can’t change the fact that his judgement was tragically impaired then and it shades everything he renders an opinion on now — particularly his opinion of Colin Powell.
redshirt
@FortGeek:
It’s got to be Nixon. Or maybe Kissinger.
Ivan X
@BobS:
Well, then thank you for at least making it clear: you’re a person who doesn’t believe in accepting apologies, even when they are supported by changes in words and behavior. Someone has to be right the first time. In my world, that makes you the asshole. Too bad.
Gin & Tonic
@Ivan X: I hope one day BobS can share with us how he copes with the enormous burden of always being right about everything.
BobS
@Ivan X: How many times does it need to be repeated until it penetrates the density? John Cole doesn’t owe me an apology (as cheap as that is for him to make) for me to accept. Now if, as a way of apologizing to the people who are actually owed, he wants to get his fat ass over to Iraq and start picking up some of the pieces that his crew was responsible for breaking, that’s another story entirely.
@Gin & Tonic: Suffering fools is probably the hardest thing about it.
Neo
December 3, 2007: The U.S. Intelligence Community released a National Intelligence Estimate concluding that Iran “halted its nuclear weapons program” in 2003, but “is keeping open the option to develop nuclear weapons.”
TriassicSands
@redshirt:
Which comes first for a representative, being a Jew or being an American? I certainly hope she puts America’s interests ahead of those of Israel, and it appears she has done so, but it shouldn’t have been a difficult decision.