There are a lot of good quotes in this article comparing what Trump and McCain did during the Vietnam War, but the juxtaposition of the pictures is what makes it great. I don’t want to spoil it for you, just read the whole thing.
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raven
Cue the BJ experts whom will tell us all about bad grades, bad pilot and all that other bullshit.
cmorenc
Notice how much the photo of Donald Trump in 1976 bears uncanny resemblance to Tucker Carlson in 2015, who has an uncannily similar personality to Trump, just less money and not quite so much flamboyance. At the core of his personality, Carlson is every bit as much an asshole as Trump is, but despite his media position, Carlson has less ability to project it as prominently.
Derelict
There were hundreds of other men who spent way too much time in the Hanoi Hilton. I worked with one of them–George Day–who won the Congressional Medal of Honor for what he did in prison. It certainly took a HUGE dollop of courage to survive, but I’m not sure it makes McCain a war hero. It makes him a former POW who married a boatload of money and used his family name, connections, and former-POW status to parlay himself a political career.
None of that, however, take away from the fact that Trump is and will continue to be a complete asshole. I suspect that his assholishness is what makes him so popular with the GOP base.
JPL
I tried to listen to Trump in SC. I’m not sure whether he addressed his McCain problem, and he certainly has one, because I tuned in late. I lasted long enough to hear him call the President and his staff stupid and Lindsay an idiot.
constitutional mistermix
@raven: McCain himself admits he was a crappy student and did some stupid stunts with an airplane prior to being a POW.
raven
@Derelict: You talk about Trump and assholes and the mention Bud Day? Jesus.
Face
The honest truth that no one dares mention.
raven
@constitutional mistermix: So what? He also said yesterday that he doesn’t consider himself a hero. He strapped his ass in that attack jet, flew missions and was shot down. I don’t like him one fucking bit but he did shit that most of his critics would curl up and die if they thought they might have to do.
Schlemazel
Since some people complain about all Dump all the time how about this
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/07/21/3682661/christians-attack-liberal-christians/
Seems the American Taliban is set to fight the same long war against marriage that they have fought against reproductive rights. This does smell of desperation but they do know how to motivate single issue voters
raven
@Face: Except him.
bobbo
I’d like to see an article detailing how the millions of hard-working Mexican immigrants who are not rapists and murderers are making contributions to this country they love on a daily basis. I still don’t understand why calling into question McCain’s heroism is the one thing Trump did that managed to generate an angry self-righteous response from the Very Serious People.
aimai
I really can’t say I care what Trump said about McCain. Does it matter? Trump was merely being truthful–he does only like some people. In this case “people who weren’t captured.” He also doesn’t like Mexicans. McCain didn’t bat an eye at attacks on them. He didn’t step forward to defend them.
McCain is a horrible person who benefitted from nepotism and wealth his entire life–he also courageously withstood torture and captivity when his chosen career turned out to have an unexpected downside risk. Ordinarily he could have served out his term of service,and even made admiral,without ever really risking himself. So what? When he was offered the chance to defend other veterans from attacks on their honor, service,courage, or consience he did nothing even for his supposed personal friend John Kerry.
I am so very indifferent to McCain’s right not ever to be disparaged.
Gin & Tonic
Odd thing about those 1970’s photos of Trump – his hair is parted on his right, and in current photos his “hair” is parted on the left. This is something that, for a man, does not typically change, as there is some physical “handedness” to the hair. Unless, of course, the current ‘do is not, ahem, natural.
OGLiberal
Well, nothing is as bad as Obama refusing to lower the flags at the White House.
http://www.stripes.com/news/us/no-explanation-by-obama-on-flags-not-lowered-to-half-staff-for-chattanooga-shootings-1.358915
The horror….
Judge Crater
Trump is a fop. He should be flogged through the streets of Manhattan just for the sins he’s already committed. McCain is deeply flawed, but I don’t question his courage or his regard for a few things higher than himself. Trump is a psychopath. He’s like a one celled organism – he knows nothing beyond himself.
Belafon
@Schlemazel: They’ll have as much luck on this as they had on fighting interracial marriage. It’s getting to the point where almost everyone knows someone who’s gay. It’s a lot harder to tell your friends or family that they can’t get married.
cmorenc
Those of us who were of prime military age during the Vietnam War, but managed to avoid getting sucked into that toxic shit-show were fortunate, and owe no one any apologies for avoiding military service during that time period – so long as we don’t diss those who did serve in ‘Nam. In my small hometown in SE North Carolina, a couple of guys from the high school class two grades above me (both of whom I personally knew) went to Nam and died there, and it was quite an emotional experience looking up their names on the Wall in D.C. As for me, I was 21 when the original year of the draft lottery occurred, and one of the greatest strokes of sheer luck I ever received was getting draft #330 (well above the maximum projected number that might be called). I had one friend from my own class who went to ‘Nam as an infantry grunt and his account of the experience was that it was a luridly colorful several months-long nightmare stalking NVA/Cong in the jungle, made bearable only by the free availability of really good pot and drugs. I had another friend who got assigned to the PX at the Saigon officer’s club, and experienced the war mostly as a continuous debauched party, safe from any real risk – but he too returned a drug-addled wreck. What scares me most is that there was a year when I was 19 or 20, before I came to my senses and got some education that ‘Nam wasn’t really a continuation of the sort of noble necessary sacrifice my parents’ generation had gone through serving in WW2 – I was gung-ho in favor of the war and came close to signing up voluntarily for military service a couple of times, thank goodness I dragged my feet on actually following through with that idea.
But anyone who disses John McCain for getting shot down for whatever contribution his shortcomings in piloting skills might have had anything to do with it – is a supreme asshole who deserves no respect. There’s plenty of legitimate reasons to diss McCain for what he did after coming home from the war, but not for what happened to him during the war.
Schlemazel
@raven:
I’m with you on this.
I do not like the term hero as it is over applied these days. He did his job as expected and deserves respect, I doubt I would have done as well as he did under those conditions. There are plenty of things I would make fun of Grandpa Walnuts for but his time in Viet Nam is not among them.
For comparison of ‘heroic’ it got lost in the hate campaign but Gore could have easily stayed out of Viet Nam, he was well connected and in a Guard unit. He volunteered and always maintained his role was insignificant because he was a journalist for the Army & never in danger, he never pretended to be more than what he was. Jesse, the boobie, Ventura has always bragged about how rough & tough he is. He went to Seal school but was never a Seal. He could have volunteered anytime to go but Seals died at a rate 17 times greater than his frogman MOS. I do not blame him for not making the leap but I do blame him for taking credit he did not earn.
Me? I was 4-F with Spina Bifida, one kidney and cataracts in both eyes, so my opinion probably holds no weight.
MattF
@Gin & Tonic: The Shaggoth ‘do:
Another Holocene Human
I thought Brutalist was an architectural style from the mid-20th century.
http://crooksandliars.com/2015/07/about-netroots-nations-town-hall
This is the statement Tia Oso linked on her twitter. Presumably it expresses her feelings on the subject. Elon is now bitching about NN15 in general and making change from the inside. I thought he had a show today? Yeah I’m too
cheapbroke to subscribe. :(The Other Chuck
@raven: Bad grades, bad pilot, bad person overall, and he’s had decades to amply demonstrate the last one. Trump being a viciously stupid asshole doesn’t make McCain a hero.
Trump’s attacks have prompted the media to resume giving McCain his weekly tongue baths. This really IS good news for John McCain.
dr. bloor
That list of things is pretty short, and it certainly doesn’t include the Presidency of the nation he professes to love.
Without touching his war background with a ten-foot-pole, McCain is getting a healthy dose of karma for being a singular, self-centered, craven asshole over so much of his career, capped by his choice of Trump’s spiritual predecessor, Sarah Palin for the vice presidency. As ye sow, so shall ye reap, and that goes double for the GOP in general.
Another Holocene Human
I don’t give a flip about Trump. Our side is scaring me too much today:
IS BERNIE SANDERS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR?
Hal
Uh, ok. The post did look at the photo they posted with that story, right?
Mike J
I think there’s plenty of room to dislike both of them.
Another Holocene Human
Time to get outraged:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/21/1404221/-Meet-the-two-black-men-in-law-enforcement-who-were-fired-when-they-stood-against-injustice
Keith G
@raven: Some folks here so easily adopted one of the worst behaviors of the Right:
“I have profound disagreements with a person, therefore there is nothing good about that person and I will not be persuaded otherwise.”
rikyrah
Senator Harry Reid @SenatorReid 3h3 hours ago
I ask each Republican running for President: name one meaningful difference between your immigration policy and Trump’s immigration policy.
Another Holocene Human
@Hal: https://twitter.com/pourmecoffee/status/623313647348121601
Warning: this pic may cause spontaneous bleeding from eyes
Germy Shoemangler
@Judge Crater:
Thank you. He now has the perfect campaign slogan.
Gindy51
@Face: Also, he would not be where he is today if he had not gotten shot down. No rich wife, no FIL financing his senate run, no 7 houses, no presidential aspirations (NO PALIN), if he had not been a POW.
divF
@Schlemazel:
It is difficult to see how the Religious Right is going to fight SSM if the Dems wine the Presidency in 2016. They don’t have the juice to get a Constitutional Amendment passed, and by 2020 there will be millions of same-sex married couples embedded in society with the legal rights that accrue. I can’t see any Supreme Court willing to try to stuff the toothpaste back in the tube.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Mike J:
Yeah, this. What Trump said was kind of a low blow, but lie down with dogs, frog and the scorpion, and all that. Kind of surprised that people are surprised that Republicans have started turning on each other the same way they turn on liberals and Democrats.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@rikyrah: This. The policy positions of the 27 Dwarves are interchangeable; they will all pursue the same things no matter who among them were to win.
(I haven’t clicked the WaPo linky.)
I know it’s summer, but aren’t there more important things that the Washington Post could cover than the stupid name-calling among the Republican candidates? Sure, a strong case can be made that people don’t decide to vote for candidates based on policy – it’s “gut feelings” and “do I like him/her” that matter. But, really? What these people were doing and what they looked like 50 years ago is what’s important today?!?
If so, 20-somethings on Twitter and Instagram better watch out!!
Cheers,
Scott.
wasabi gasp
@raven:
Curious about your take on this: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/mccain-and-the-pow-cover-up/
dedc79
Seems like every BJ post of late is designed to get half the readers/commenters fighting with the other half. Used to be only half the posts were like that….
Mike J
erin mallory long @erinmallorylong 2h2 hours ago
Jeffro
Trump gives out Lindsey Graham’s phone number during SC speech:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-graham-cell-phone-number
Wouldn’t most SC conservatives already have that number, if you knowwhatImsayin’?
Emma
@aimai: Co-signed. Ditto. Exactly.
Judge Crater
@dr. bloor: McCain’s war record stands for itself. He endured things that few of us ever encounter or can even imagine. That doesn’t make him a war hero, much less a nice person. But it does show you his character when the chips were down. He wouldn’t abandon his fellow POWs when given the chance. That speaks volumes. Does it redeem everything he has done since? No. But for the time in question he behaved like a man. No small feat.
dedc79
Also, a Brutalist Bricks thread without any Ted Leo songs?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@aimai: When he was offered the chance to defend other veterans from attacks on their honor, service,courage, or consience he did nothing even for his supposed personal friend John Kerry.
I think he issued a tsk-tsk press release in defense of Max “Saddam” Cleland, though.
Who do you think is more enjoying the opportunity Trump gave the media to rehash their loving admiration for John McCain: John McCain or the media?
Villago Delenda Est
The Village is outraged, outraged that anyone dares to question John McCain in any way shape or form.
The tire swing will be defended at all costs.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@dedc79:
Welcome to election season. 2007/2008 and 2011/2012 were the same.
Bobby B.
Jane Fonda is still Hawt for conservatives to hate. There’s people born in 1995 who were raised to “know” her as a folk hero, like a rougarou. There’s old turds who still want to beat the shit of/murder this 70-plus old woman.
Gin & Tonic
@MattF: As a Rhode Islander I appreciate that.
bemused
@Another Holocene Human:
Now that is hilarious. His parents had “unique” style looks.
Amir Khalid
I don’t suppose Chris Christie news is big presidential-candidate news anymore* but he’s renounced the Boss. He’s a Bon Jovi fan now. I wonder if anyone will have the heart to tell him that Jon Bon Jovi’s a Democrat too.
*No pun intended.
dedc79
Every time I think this can’t possibly get any better, I’m proven wrong:
raven
@cmorenc: I always supported the people that didn’t go. I think this big schism is a fairly new invention. The documentary “Milieus” about the very conservative film maker and screen writer has an interesting perspective on who did and did not go in the military during Vietnam. He actually wanted to be a fighter pilot but was not able to go in because of physical problems. Anyway, he recounts the scene in “Big Wednesday ” when the buddies all go down to the draft board. Some got out and some went in. One got killed. He said he based that on his own experiences. Some went, some didn’t but there did not seem to be this big conflict between who did and who didn’t.
Eric U.
the word “hero” doesn’t mean anything any more, sad really. I respect McCain for going over and fighting when so many like him hid from danger, and I expect he could have done the same. I can’t say anything disrespectful about his captivity, I am pretty sure I wouldn’t have coped as well as he has. OTOH, if he had joined the fight against the crazies in his own party, he could hit back a lot more effectively.
catclub
Same comment I had before. The WAPO did not have time to make this comparison in 2000 between Bush and McCain.
or between Cheney and Al Gore.
raven
@wasabi gasp: I think it horsehit. That and all Ted Sampley’s crap.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Jeffro: Which goes to prove that in addition to everything else he’s also a vindictive shit.
Cermet
@raven: Really? Like that matters relative to the topic if any people here do say those things. You are one stupid person or a troll.
raven
@Cermet: Oh no, a trolllllll, oh what will I do now? Go fuck yourself.
“what Trump and McCain did during the Vietnam War” has nothing to do with what I said. Someone is stupid for sure.
Villago Delenda Est
@aimai: One of the things that most offends me about John McCain is that, yes, he was a POW, and yes, he was tortured, and yes, he is to be admired for surviving such an experience.
Except he didn’t seem to learn from it, because when his own country was treating detainees the way McCain was treated when he was a POW, he didn’t stand up and say “Stop. I’ve been there, done that, and I’ll be damned if I do not speak out and protest this treatment of humans”. No, because his ambition had hijacked his soul, and ejected his honor and integrity, he was silent as the deserting coward and the Dark Lord were getting their rocks off on torturing people. He could have been the shining light in the darkness. In order to satisfy his ambitions, he did not.
This is a crime I can neither forget nor forgive. McCain could have captured the moral high ground and held it with very little effort, except for the sacrifice of his short term ambition to be President…instead he could have fulfilled that ambition without putting a shiv into his honor or his integrity.
Calouste
@Judge Crater:
The Code of Conduct of the US Military bars accepting special favors from the enemy.
That McCain somehow implies that he did something good when doing otherwise would have meant the end of his career, if not being court-martialed, tells you a lot about the man.
Cervantes
@Eric U.:
Do you qualify that respect according to how much that war was a just cause?
Shakezula
Meh. Too much “A paean to John POW McCain” for me.
Also, did I miss the gallons of ink that were spilled when Dump called Central and South Americans rapists?
Calouste
@Eric U.:
McCain was a career officer, and the son and grandson of career officers. Resigning from the military during wartime would have been the end of his social status.
Cervantes
@Villago Delenda Est:
McCain has opposed the use of torture by the US.
sigaba
For McCain the real character moment is always going to be when the NVA offered to release him early, because his father was an Admiral, and he demanded that he be give no special favors. He was a careless and callow youth, he was just going through the motions, yeah he was a flake and he nearly sunk his own aircraft carrier (who hasn’t?), he was like Starbuck from BSG, except without the flying ability or loyalty. *
But then he got captured and spent years in prison, and the man that came out seemed to finally have purpose in his life. That’s kind of the main appeal of his story, he’s the wayward son who ended up in a big fix and came out, maybe not much wiser, but with a sense of himself. It’s a very appealing story. So in the end all the stories about how he was a screwup are really just setting the stage for his prodigal return, a real American story of self-discovery and turnaround, a Gatsby with a second act.
What’s interesting is that while he became a much more focused person, he still seems to be sorta careless and flippant, he’s always struck me as a person with strong moral convictions but never as someone that was particularly wise or responsible; more of an uncle than a grandpa. He’s still the guy who got Ds all through college, but now he’s a War Hero and a beatified sage of all that is military, and respectability or the mere appearance thereof can get you pretty far, so people tend not to pay attention to the fact that a lot of what he says is contradictory, or un-informed, or trolling, which really should be beneath him but for some reason isn’t.
*Maybe he was more like Bodie Olmos’s character Hot Dog, I dunno.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cervantes: He didn’t say a peep when it was happening. He did not criticize the deserting coward and the Dark Lord when it was happening.
NOW, when it’s safe, and he’ll never run for President again, he’s being vocal.
But back then, when the torture was in progress, he was mute.
JPL
@catclub: The Washington Post wasn’t outraged by the Bush camps dirty tricks against McCain also. His wife was a drug user, he was mentally unbalanced and had a child out of wedlock. It was as disgusting as Trump’s comments, maybe more so but the Post ignored it.
Belafon
@Calouste:
My belief on being a POW is that anything a POW does, short of giving out nuclear launch codes, is to be considered an action coerced by the enemy. I do no begrudge any person trying to stay alive. The military knows you’re captured, and should be adjusting any plans you might know accordingly.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Villago Delenda Est: My recollection is that he did speak out against it when it became public – e.g.. But you’re right, I think, that he didn’t push it anywhere near as much as he should and could have (he fought much harder for McCain-Feingold than to stop US torture).
Cheers,
Scott.
Emma
@sigaba: Strong moral convictions?
Horrible jokes about the pre-teenage daughter of the then President.
Letting draft-dodgers in his party attack fellow veterans.
Selecting Sarah Palin as possible VP, fully knowing what she was.
God preserve me from such morals.
chopper
@cmorenc:
the thing about his experience at the hanoi hilton that amazes me is that he came home the same selfish privileged asshole he was before the war.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’d dispute the second half of that sentence, but the first is bad enough, and his refusal to show any remorse or regret for what the way he peed in our political punchbowl is just as bad if not worse.
Also flip-flopping on immigration, climate change and god knows what else out of anti-Obama spite and opportunism. The man is arguably the greatest shape-shifter in politics today, including Romney.
boatboy_srq
@Cervantes: He’s perfectly fine with “bomb bomb Iran”. Carpetbombed but untortured foreign folk are quite acceptable. I’m not sure that’s a worthwhile distinction, and I’d be much less disinclined to give McCain “war hero” status if he weren’t so committed to creating more
casualtieswar heroes.sigaba
Also I think that, for people who remember the political fights of the Vietnam war, particularly people of Clinton’s generation, McCain was this kind of Magical Puzzle Piece that resolved many of their issues and could be sort of an avatar for a certain sort of ambivalence about the war. He fought in the war and was a POW, he didn’t really seem to care about parties, and his greatest accomplishment as a politician was helping restore diplomatic ties with Vietnam and opening dialogue between the two countries. McCain is a veteran, a conservative — indeed the direct successor to Barry Goldwater — and he was willing to put the politics of Vietnam in the past.
Cermet
@raven: You, I see, can only fuck yourself anyway so I guess that is the only advice you know. Your comment was both troll, and stupid. Sorry I missed that aspect of you (lol.)
Mike in NC
The Washington Post never misses an opportunity to remind the world that John S. McCain is a Very Serious Person, and many other VSPs are also coming forward to defend his honor. It’s merely a coincidence that he’s a wealthy and influential white Republican politician.
schrodinger's cat
How many more hagiographies of McCain do we need to read? We know he was POW and he is MSM favorite crush.
Much brave. Such straight talk. POW. POW.
Jeffro
@Litlebritdifrnt: I think Lindsey’s got this, lol:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/lindsey-graham-donald-trump-jackass
We are gonna hear some seriously all-time classic quotes from these folks before the first GOP primary quote is cast, for real!
sigaba
@Emma: Yeah I agree, he’s clearly not all together.
He’s got bad morals, but the point I’m trying to make is that he’s moralistic about everything. If he went to Subway and he found they’d stopped selling his favorite parmesan oregano bread he’d probably accuse them of betraying him; to him nothing ever seems to be a mistake, nothing is ever a reasonable disagreement, nothing is ever a rational decision, it’s always someone either doing EVIL upon the world or doing GOOD. You’re either a white knight or a black hat. We’re always at the table at Munich and Hitler is always asking for the Sudetenland.
To him everything is either good or evil. Or a joke, and that’s where he gets into a lot of trouble; he’s only an amateur moralist, his profession is cynicism. OTOH I think his cynicism is really what gives him a lot of his appeal: people love sarcasm and “straight talk” such as they think it is, it’s clearly what attracted David Foster Wallace to him, that guy thought McCain was the Second Coming. (Interesting that DFW committed suicide only a week or so after McCain picked Sarah Palin.)
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@schrodinger’s cat: Kornacki substituted for Rachel last night. I almost threw the remote through the TV when he started a segment with that grainy video of McCain hobbling on his crutches off that airplane …
“Did you know John McCain was a POW?”
Grr.
Cheers,
Scott.
chopper
@schrodinger’s cat:
i literally did not know this fact until today. you’d think he’d have mentioned it at some point!
Cervantes
@Villago Delenda Est:
Are you quite sure?
@boatboy_srq:
Do I think he’s foolish? You bet.
Yet it’s still not right to claim, e. g., that he is only opposing torture now that he’ll never run for President again. In fact, he opposed it during the 2008 campaign.
peach flavored shampoo
@Jeffro: I keep forgetting Senator LoaferLite is an official Pres candidate. What’s Grayham’s constituency? Gay Southern Baptists? Closet builders? The cast of Thunder from Down Under?
Cheryl from Maryland
My personal theory is that many people employ a shorthand to determine if a politician is worthy. And candidates believe in this type of shorthand narrative. Thus, John McCain, POW, automatically equals senatorial material. John Kerry, for all of his good points (I voted for him), used the same when he “reported for duty” at the National Convention. Thus, the complexities of reality (heroic as a POW; not so good with bankers or picking VP presidents) don’t come into play during elections. And much time and effort are spent either building up this simplistic narrative or tearing it down (McCain was not heroic as a POW; Swiftboating, I’m a businessman, etc.) rather than dealing with facts.
Cervantes
@Cheryl from Maryland:
How’s the museum business treating you these days?
Davebo
@Cervantes:
Right up until it came time to vote against it
hoo
The guilty pleasure of Trump is that he’s a gigantic mirror held up in the face of the GOP. He draws from the same cesspool of racism, xenophobia and general assholism, just without a filter. His personal life is characterized by the same egomania and corruption, and isn’t much different than many prior GOP candidates, notably including John McCain (remember dumping his first wife for a beer heiress and his role in the Keating Five?). Trump hasn’t done anything to McCain that Republicans have done on a regular basis to Democrats, with McCain barely uttering a whimper in protest. Yeah, you can never take away McCain’s suffering in Viet Nam, but he’s mostly been a craven and incompetent asshole ever since, contributing to the needless deaths of thousands and driving politics further into idiocy by introducing the world to Palinism.
Cervantes
@Davebo:
About that vote:
Villago Delenda Est
@Cervantes: If he did, he wasn’t very loud about it, and he embraced the deserting coward on the floor of the Senate.
He had his chance to be on the right side, and he blew it…all because his ambition overrode his honor.
ruemara
@Another Holocene Human: he, like me, is full of fed up. He has been catching all kinds of flack from, er, progressives for insufficient fealty to Sanders as well as the temerity to think the BLM protest at NN15 was valid and not rude. Our own blog host hit him all day on that. Plus his equipment got stolen. Sucky day sucked.
Davebo
@Cervantes:
So since McCain has been consistent in his support of torture by the CIA which is, you know, the US he obviously has opposed the use of torture by the US.
Thanks for clarifying.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@raven:
It always seemed to me that the schism was more between the older generation who had gone to WWII or Korea and the Vietnam refuseniks. It always seemed like even the most gung-ho guys who volunteered for ‘Nam understood why not everyone wanted to go.
I know “generation gap” is a cliche, but that’s what it always seemed to be in hindsight.
Jeffro
@peach flavored shampoo: I thought he had a constituency of two (himself and McCain), with a singular mission: to heckle Rand Paul and make sure RP’s brand of isolationism never makes it anywhere near the Oval Office.
(Lindsey, you don’t gotta worry: RP’s never getting near the Oval Office anyway)
Now that I think about it, Graham must be just about solely supported by Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, General Dynamics, and Halliburton and/or auditioning for a post-Senate board gig w/ one or more of those fine corporations.
Cervantes
@Davebo:
That may be your conclusion, but it’s not a careful one.
raven
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): I also think that gap exists within Vietnam Vets as a group. My cousin is 5 years older than me and his perspective on the war is the polar opposite of mine. But , then again, I’m stupid and a troll.
Davebo
@Cervantes:
It’s not exactly a judgment call or an opinion. Facts are facts.
John McCain said many times that waterboarding equals torture and of course he should know.
The CIA, with the approval of the Executive, approved waterboarding as an acceptable interrogation technique and utilized it. A bill to end that practice was put to a vote and John McCain voted no.
What type of mental origami are you employing to square that fact with your claim that John McCain has opposed the use of torture by the US?
Cervantes
@Davebo:
Read the NYT article you yourself cited above. It explains the relevant distinctions quite clearly.
Schlemazel
@divF:
The same way they are currently ‘winning’ the birth issue. They only have to maintain control of judgeships & then find ways to chip away, state by state. Its the long game & they have done one hell of a job of it on the forced birth issues.
dogwood
John McCain never wanted to be president; he wanted to be commander in chief. Its the central motivating impetus of his being. I suspect he would have been a worse president than W, and I’m sure he would have been much worse than Romney.
Cervantes
@dogwood:
Plus he would have been a worse Commander-in-Chief as well, or certainly not a better one.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@dogwood: “Today, we’re all Georgians.” – August 2008.
“Only the most deluded of us could doubt the necessity of this war.” – August 2004.
I assume he’ll have another absolutely necessary war for us in August 2016 as well. :-/
Cheers,
Scott.
newtons.third
@raven: This is the difference between the parties. D’s can separate what they feel about the person -McCain is lauded as a hero by John Kerry- from what they feel about the person’s positions. R’s have to try to destroy both. They don’t do nuance.
Cervantes
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
Did he really skip 2012?
Davebo
@Cervantes:
Oh I’d say it explains a lot! McCain believes waterboarding is torture. The President disagreed. These type of conflicts are normally handled via legislation.
But John McCain decided to vote against the legislation and then explain that it “it would be better if the President just changed his mind and stated firmly that this technique is illegal”.
If you want to defend that I say go for it. But don’t tell me that McCain paid anything other than lip service in opposition to torture by the US government.
Then again, other than that initial statement, that I replied to, you haven’t really said anything have you?
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Cervantes: Digging up that linky is an exercise for the reader. Here’s a hint though. ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
boatboy_srq
@Cervantes: And opposed it so forcefully that the Stop Torturing Our Prisoners (STOP) Act of 2009 sailed through Congress solely thanks to his sponsorship of the legislation in the Senate. Not!
Words are lovely; how about some genuine action to go with them? What? Oh.
Cervantes
@Davebo:
You’re right that I’m not putting a lot of energy into this conversation — because I don’t see that the conversation merits it.
On the one hand we have you asserting (on the basis of one vote you apparently don’t understand) that McCain paid only “lip service” to the cause; and on the other hand (quoted above, not long after that vote) is the director of Human Rights Watch explicitly endorsing McCain’s commitment to that same cause. Makes perfect sense, right?
In any event, have a great afternoon.
gelfling545
I have no complaint against anyone who managed to avoid the draft during Viet Nam. Some of the best people I know did just that. It does mean, I think, that you need to walk pretty softly around anybody else’s military status, perhaps most especially regarding POW’s. That doesn’t mean that you have to agree with their politics, accept their thoughts on the advisability of war, believe they are necessarily good people or anything else but acknowledge that someone followed through on what s/he had sworn to do and paid a high price for it.
Many of us likely got angry when Democrats like Kerry, Clelland & Duckworth were attacked on the basis of their service so I’d prefer to be consistent. That Republicans are being remarkably inconsistent in this area does not, to me constitute an excuse for me to be inconsistent as well.
Cervantes
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
Might be easier to list years in which he did not call for war.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Cervantes: Yup. But he does seem to like August in election years, doesn’t he? I wonder why that is. Hmm…
Cheers,
Scott.
Kropadope
If John McCain were out there making money instead of in Vietnam, losing the use of his arms, maybe he would’ve been able to beat that Kenyan for the presidency. /Trump
Cheryl from Maryland
@Cervantes: Thanks for asking. It’s ehhh … The mess over Bill Cosby supporting two SI museums; his money is dirty, but maybe it is a good thing the Smithsonian has it. That we have to go to Kickstarter to conserve and display Neil Armstrong’s Apollo 11 suit — good way for the public to participate, but we are beggars, shouldn’t the National Museum be able to pay for national treasures? On the good side, I’m responsible for an exhibition on one of the nation’s important artists, Chuck Jones.
Davebo
@Cervantes:
I say McCain only pays lip service to the cause. You disagree.
Tom Malinowski doesn’t. Unless you have another definition for the term “lip service”
But hey, I don’t understand the vote right? Because what does voting mean anyway?
Davebo
@Cervantes:
Sorry, I know I’m being argumentative but the whole “McCain was tortured and he opposes it” meme is just so silly.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Cheryl from Maryland: Neat!
The SI Museums are a treasure that we don’t appreciate nearly enough. J and I just got back from a vacation in Switzerland. In Lucerne, we visited the <a href="http://www.rosengart.ch/welcome.php5“>Rozengart for about 90 minutes. Lots of neat Picassos and Klees, with a smattering of others spread over 3 floors. Admission was $18 CHF each (about $18 per person).
The SI Museums in DC could house all that in one of atriums, and the DC SI museums are free. For the moment, anyway. Of course, other SI museums aren’t free. :-(
I could start a rant on how we’re strangling our parks, museums and public spaces due to funding cutbacks, and the short-sightedness of charging high admission fees, but I’ll quit before doing so…
ETA: to try to fix linky without getting stuck in Moderation…
Cheers,
Scott.
Thoughtcrime
@Cheryl from Maryland:
Have you watched this?