Via our David Koch, Electablog’s on-the-spot perspective on the Netroots Nation brouhaha is well worth a read.
Sitting in the middle of this maelstrom was a fascinating experience. I, like many of the others there, was initially irritated by the protestors. I was there to hear the candidates and was frustrated that they weren’t being heard. Even a bit angry, in fact. “These are your allies,” I thought. “Why on earth are you attacking them? Why are you disrupting an event where the people there are sympathetic to your cause?”
Frustration. Anger. Being silenced.
Frustration.
Anger.
Silenced.
Talked over.
Ignored.
Every single one of these emotions that ran through my white privileged brain in the first few moments of the protest until I was slapped across the face with what I was being forced to confront. Every single one of these emotions are felt acutely and painfully every single day by racial minority groups in our country. But, instead of being inconvenienced by not being able to hear a politician speak, they face them in the context of being slaughtered in the streets by the police officers who are tasked to protect them, incarcerated in astonishingly disparate numbers, and blamed for not being able to escape from the prison of poverty that holds far too many of them in bondage.
If you’re not able to cope with a group of black women singing songs at you by, say, respectfully listening to what they have to say, inviting some of them onstage, listening again, answering their questions and opening up a dialogue, all without resorting to all-lives-matter bullshit or dropping the mike and going home, you may not be ready to be President.
Unrelatedly, is this the first Myiq2xu sighting for Election 2016? Remember, if he can see his shadow we get six more months of Donald Trump.
Another Holocene Human
Cosigned.
Splitting Image
He’s been commenting occasionally since the beginning of the year. If you tend to skim over unconstructive comments, you might have missed him.
I also noticed that Hillaryis44 and Hillbuzz are still active. The blog-owners were so upset at the terrible sexism thrown at Clinton in 2008 that they have joined the Republican party and are considering which of the clowns is best suited to run the country and put women’s rights back into the Victorian era.
kindness
Meh. I figure progressive Democrats are the best friends most of the powerless folks have in political office. And honestly progressives (and O’Malley & Sanders specifically) would be really good for the BlackLivesMatter folks. So making them look bad was real stupid. Others have already disagreed with me elsewhere though.
Sly
“I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’ Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.”
– Written by some guy who Bernie Sanders marched with 50 years ago.
If you were bothered by the disruption, that only adds to the proof of its necessity.
Kropadope
@kindness: Maybe if BLM got the candidates thinking about their issues in that would be relatable to activists, they did the candidates a boon. I only wish town councils and legislative chambers that are less agreeable to just implementation of law could be confronted with these issues.
Gravenstone
re. NoIQ: nah, that useless fuck knob shows up late to the occasional contentious Cole post to do a hit and run jab at him. It rarely sticks around to engage. No loss, since it hasn’t been worth engaging in years, if ever.
TopClimber
Hopefully there will be constructive things that emerge from the NN dispute. I have some hope, because besides countless flame duels in numerous comments, I see soul searching and a realization that white progressives need to address racism more effectively.
As the following link evidences, there is no shortage of areas where the nexus of racism and poverty screws its victims:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-20/brain-scans-reveal-how-poverty-hurts-children-s-brains
Belafon
I figure it’s early. If they’re smart enough, they’ll figure out they need to listen and respond appopriately. And I think they are smart enough. Clinton had to make this adjustment as well.
Lavocat
I think Jim Morrison said it best: “You CANNOT petition the Lord with prayer!”.
I love watching circular firing squads. It’s so very … Darwinian in its simplicity.
Kropadope
@Sly:
I can’t speak for all white moderates, but I just think what they’re doing is counter-productive, literally slowing down their own timetable.
I will eagerly concede that I am far, FAR too discomfort adverse.
sparrow
I am very sypathetic to the #BlackLivesMatter campaign and have marched to show it, but this:
is beyond stupid as a general way to evaluate the worthiness of a protest. By this rule, the Westborough Baptist groups are proof that protesting military funerals with “god hates fags” signs are “necessary” since white liberals are bothered by them.
As to what happened at NN, I’m withholding judgement. The issues that #BLM is bringing to our conversation are huge and important and I do think the dems need to talk about them more. Maybe this is a good way to make that happen maybe it’s not, maybe it’s a good way but has unintended negative consequences overall. I just don’t know.
Belafon
@sparrow: In the case of the NN protest, the people who seem to have been bothered are of the “why are you attacking a candidate who would support you” and “why don’t you wait for a better time” camps. I think her comment fits well for those groups.
Kropadope
@sparrow:
Well, it’s certainly gotten us talking about them; apparently the D candidates too. Perhaps this sharper focus will help them.
ruemara
@kindness: well, we’re so sorry we demand a bit more agency as opposed to the resounding endorsements of people who are not operating under the same issues.
You guys know what barotrauma is? It’s an actual injury caused air pressure. On the ears, it can make your estwhosimazinger tubes behind your ears fill up with fluid, resulting in a level of deafness, also cause infection and generally simulate a flu. Funny thing about ears, you really don’t know how integral your senses are until one is hampered. I don’t mind new & interesting experiences, but I’d prefer the one that requires me winning the lottery.
Edited to reflect that tinnitus and hearing EVERY DAMNED NOISE YOUR BODY MAKES THROUGHOUT THE DAY is stressful.
Bobby Thomson
@Splitting Image: as if further proof were needed they were ratfucking Republicans the whole time.
mike with a mic
To be fair, Bernie Sanders is bad for social issues.
We win on social issues through the rich urbanites in our group. And we do that when it won’t affect their pockets in a bad way, and gives them more power over the great mass of the have nots. This is why the HRC has Goldman Sachs as it’s corporate face. We win on economic issues by giving up on social issues and railing against the elites that let us win on them.
So pick what’s important. If social issues are your thing, than addressing the income issues Sanders wants is a fucking death sentence for your issues. If economic issues are your thing, winning on them will hurt social issues.
We can’t have both.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@ruemara:
You made that up.
BGinCHI
Cudlips.
Joel
@ruemara:
Noted evolutionary biologist, J.B.S. Haldane. So, good company.
Gin & Tonic
@BGinCHI: #oldskool
Shakezula
@Sly: Waaah, no fair! You’re only allowed to repeat things said by nice, polite teddy bear MLK, Jr.
The fact people think this is a reasonable analogy is even more proof the protest was necessary.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@mike with a mic:
Howzat? The social/economic issue dichotomy that you promote is a false dichotomy. Most social issues are a result of income/class inequality. We can’t have social equality without reducing class difference and wide economic disparities. At the same time actions like the one BLM took are important to forge the link between the two — the point of curing income inequality is to promote social justice as well.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Shakezula: Seconded.
ruemara
@Joel: I think I’d rather be the bunny sitting this out.
Patricia Kayden
@kindness: I don’t get the point of shouting down those who are already on your side. But that’s just me. I still believe that Secretary Clinton was smart to dodge the Netroots Nation bullet. I don’t see any benefit to either O’Malley or Sanders from attending and being interrupted.
I wonder if BLM is going to disrupt the Democratic convention next year. That should be fun.
scav
@Comrade Scrutinizer:Mmm, I’d say that chicken egg relationship is far from being all so clear and tidy as that. it’s not as though the wealthy of color just sail though life with no issues whatsoever. Besides, even if one turns out to be the definitive root cause, there’s no bloody reason whatsoever not to mitigate the pernicious symptoms at the same time.
Matt McIrvin
@Patricia Kayden: If I were a presumptive Democratic nominee I would be thinking a whole lot about how to get out in front on this. Talking to the President might help (to the extent that he considers it proper to do), since on the whole he seems to have a bead on it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Comrade Scrutinizer: Fiscally liberal, socially conservative troll makes passive-aggressive with the sarcasm.
Germy Shoemangler
@ruemara: Did a recent flight cause your ear problem?
Omnes Omnibus
@mike with a mic: And you are back with that again…. To which, I again say bullshit.
ruemara
@Germy Shoemangler: yep. First time on a Cessna. Unfortunately, some of the worst ear pain I’ve ever had flying. No idea why. Other than that and this resultant injury, it was very pleasant.
Archon
@mike with a mic:
Forgive me for my naiveté that I want more economic opportunity AND to not get treated like an dangerous insurgent by police officers in my own country.
Woodrowfan
hopefully they’ll also disrupt the republicans this way. It’ll drive the repukes into a mouth-foaming frenzy.
Reminding your allies that you have important issues that need to be dealt with: good.
Circular firing squad: bad.
guachi
I’d have more respect for BLM if they had even bothered to try to set up a panel at NN to discuss the issue. It doesn’t look like they did. Instead, from what I see on the video, they came to yell and hijack a panel.
It wasn’t about progress. It was about eating their own young.
And I’ve seen it justified in multiple places by saying that because blacks are the base of the party, then it’s ok to insist that only your issue should be heard.
But I reject the very premise that blacks are the base of the Democratic party. The Democratic party has regional bases that vary by race and other characteristics (gay, union, etc.)
I’ve lived in a state where whites were the base and, in really close elections, it’s Native Americans who put the Democrat who couldn’t win majority white support over the top and black voters were irrelevant.
I’ve lived in a state where the base were hispanic and white voters and a city in that state where the base was Asians and whites (and homosexuals).
And I’ve lived in states where the base was largely black voters in cities where the base was overwhelmingly black voters.
Which is a way of saying the Democratic party has lots of interests and lots of bases and I basically object to the protesters who diverted whatever that forum was supposed to be about and made it about only their issue. It wasn’t about listening or learning or even having a dialog. It was about ensuring that only their voice was heard and only their issue mattered.
Kerry Reid
@kindness: Conversely, voters of color are the most consistent “friends” that Dem candidates (or the independents seeking Dem nominations, if you must) can ever have. So it might behoove candidates to not take them for granted. Or, in Sanders’ case, not suggest that they voted for the first black president on the basis of color and that economics always trumps race, even though police brutality and voter suppression as they’ve been playing out for over 150 years have pretty much everything to do with race, not class.
With that interview, Bernie Sanders basically threw in his lot with every GOP clown who has claimed that Barack Obama got elected because black people voted for him. Yes. As they do almost EVERY Dem candidate.
MDC
@Shakezula:
Apparently everything is proof that the protest was necessary.
I bet it was also good for John McCain.
BGinCHI
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m always really surprised at dumb liberals. You’d think the self-selection would take care of that.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@ruemara:
Oooh, I know this. Eustachian Tubes! I forget 90% of everything I ever studied but for some reason the details of my 6th grade report on the ears has never left my noggin. The malleus, incus and stapes are the (hammer/anvil/stirrup) middle ear bones. #randommemory
PS- great work on these race-related threads.
kc
Do the Netroots Nation protesters have a list of policy proposals they want the federal government to adopt?
sparrow
@Shakezula: yes, everything is proof that you are always correct, and everyone else is wrong. Even this post, so full of wrongness!
Uncle Ebeneezer
Cosigned, as well. Great piece. Sometimes the Overton Window needs a foot shoved into it to get it moving.
Socraticsilence
Talking to someone who was there, the underreported part is that the protesters didn’t just shoutdown two Presidential candidates, they also shouted down the moderator- an undocumented immigrant leading a discussion focused on immigration issues. Even if we agree that the protesters had merit, its bullshit that they essentially prioritized their issue over another just as pressing one– if a forum held in St. Louis on police violence is interrupted by immigration protests I have doubts people would be so forgiving.
Timurid
I’m a horrible person, but my first thought upon seeing the photo in the post was “SHINY AND CHROME.”
Roger Moore
@Comrade Scrutinizer:
This is “mike with a mic”‘s schtick. He thinks Democrats can only win on social issues by allying themselves with socially liberal elites who will then prevent the party from moving on economic issues. Therefore, the only way to get traction on economic issues is to ignore the elites, incidentally throwing the minorities who care about those social issues under the bus.
Shakezula
“Stop with the summary executions” really didn’t seem like a radical request, but apparently it is.
@sparrow: I know, it must be such a shock that comparing a civil rights movement started by queer black women to a bunch of raging homophobes would get you a little backchat.
randy khan
I’ll weigh in on the side of the people who think that being bothered by the distraction has very little to do with whether it was necessary. But I do think that, when something like this bothers you, it’s important to ask why it bothers you and whether there’s something you should do about that.
ruemara
@Kerry Reid: Taking a critical look at what’s insulting in that statement seems to be a bridge too far for some here.
The amount of people insisting that those noisy so and sos should have picked an appropriate venues surprise- ha no it doesn’t. My lack of surprise over the toned deaf tuttuting is about par for the course now. It’s like Sarah didn’t include a link from Chris Savage discussing this from a perspective of listening. On the behalf of those irritating protesters, I do apologize and will send letters out to explain that being more acceptable negroes is integral to being allied under the progressive umbrella. Shame for using the tactics others used without considering the frail emotional structures of our allies! I guess hip-hop fashions will have to be sackcloth and ashes this fall.
Kylroy
@Socraticsilence: I don’t know, I can see a lot of people here telling us that the injustices done to undocumented immigrants justify whatever boorish behavior they might theoretically impose on a (nominally sympathetic) crowd.
Daulnay
@Patricia Kayden:
You assume that Sanders and O’Malley actually sympathize, understand, and want to prioritize ending racism over other things. That’s not evident; O’Malley was mayor of effing Baltimore, and didn’t fix the ongoing problems with their notorious police force; Sanders has been pretty clearly clueless, because blacks’ problem isn’t capitalism and general human rights issues, it’s the moral corruption of American society by slavery and the ideas of race that were born to justify racism.
Kropadope
@Kerry Reid: I don’t think that’s exactly what he was trying to say.
I think one thing to consider here is the question of disparate participation levels between black and white voters. True, 90+% of black voters vote for Democrats (to choose a conservative number), but many, many black voters aren’t voting. I’m sure I can’t guess as to all their motivation, but I would wager there is some subset of black non-voters who have always worked hard, may be in a union, and have watched their earning prospects fall over the years.
The issue they see Democrats ignoring, but is important to them is not race, but labor. A huge part of why racism is fading, albeit too slowly, is that expanded economic opportunities have allowed black families to move to the sprawling suburbs that were borne largely of white flight. Reintegration of society has been a boon to black people, even though there’s strife, because more people see them as friends and neighbors. The economic barriers to having an expensive suburban house and lifestyle don’t lend themselves to a simple legislative fix. The collapse of earnings has hit black workers hardest and Democrats haven’t had a whole lot of recent success protecting organized labor.
I don’t know how much of that is right or wrong, or whether that’s truly Bernie’s mindset. However, that’s what I see from my admittedly privileged corner of the world.
kindness
What has shocked me is how so many on the liberal side have been so quick to attack their fellow liberals and then gloat over them like they were God’s gift.
It really shouldn’t shock me at all. Lotta liberals are assholes. Sadly one area we do share with the right wingers.
-PS I certainly am an asshole at times. But that isn’t news to anyone here.
Kylroy
@Daulnay: @randy khan: Sad fact is you don’t win elections in a democratic system championing an issue that is (literally) vitally important to 12% of the population, but merely upsetting to 72%.
Kropadope
@Kropadope: I also think it would be immensely presumptuous for Bernie to be speaking on matters of race like he was as much an expert on them as he is on other policy issues.
MomSense
Well said.
White Trash Liberal
This is such a strange overreaction to me. NN has been home to antics and interruptions since its inception.
Ok, I will grant one thing: the Black Lives Matter protest managed to give both-sider d bags some coverage against Trump and the GOP insanity. But that’s just beltway bullshit, and they’d just reach into their grab bag and yank out Dean scream or some other tried and true #ScaryHippy image to punch. It’s what they do.
I think this protest/disruption has been a game changer. The base of the democratic party wants to be heard, understood and actively part of the dialogue. Bernie may have marched with MLK, but what will he do for black lives? Specifically. The ACLU is petitioning for the President to eliminate the felony box on federal work applications. How about other businesses follow suit? What are we doing about solitary confinement? Credit scores for non-credit purposes? Drug rehabilitation, citizen review boards for police departments.
These are not part of the economic rising tide lifts all boats message Bernie is delivering. The base wants more. Listen to them.
Every democrat should be given notice that this election must make black lives central to their platform. 1% unemployment won’t get rid of Stand Your Ground.
Applejinx
@Kropadope: This. This is just what I was saying.
I talked about assimilationism but there’s a major point to be made. I don’t mean Bryant Gumbel “I have become nonethnic” assimilationism. I don’t mean ‘act really white so whitey won’t shoot you’ assimilationism.
I mean hiphop fashions and ethnicity AS friends and neighbors. And that does mean reversing the collapse of earnings that hit black families hardest. The crushing of organized labor and doubling down to freemarket capitalist objectivist utopia has real consequencies and one of them is ghettoization. We have to pursue certain economic policies or the racism policies face an impossibly uphill battle.
And publically making claims that ‘whether you’re white or black or hispanic or asian, if you’re in the working class I have your back’ doesn’t automatically imply ‘everybody act white’. It’s a call to find common ground.
EVEN WHILE black people are disproportionately likely to be flat out murdered by police or wingnut vigilantes, this call for common ground is worthwhile. If it’s accepted, then it makes the murder appear more horrible: it’s no longer ‘them’ getting murdered, it’s ‘us’ for some value of us.
We can’t go about this from a ‘at all costs, justice for Them!’ standpoint. It’s both ineffective and immoral. Black Americans are Us, fuckin’ Americans, full citizens, supposed to be here in all their blackness and what the hell is the problem with that? This is Us getting murdered by police and wingnut vigilantes.
As such I see Bernie’s blithely lumping everyone together, and drawing class distinctions while totally denying race distinctions, as a kind of positive. YES the murder is both racist and not something whites have to face (though you might ask people murdered for being gay and swishy: unjust murder is not a black-only distinction). But any means of drawing the lines so that black Americans are straight-up Us, in no sense some distant ‘Them’ needing foreign aid, any means of reaching that is fair game.
Kropadope
@White Trash Liberal:
No, but it would be a much less hospitable environment for such laws.
White Trash Liberal
@Kropadope:
It wouldn’t be presumptuous if he LISTENED to BLM and took what they were saying to heart… Maybe, you know, hire a staffer or two that has experience with these issues.
White liberals sometimes have a hard time listening. I know I do. I don’t think BLM wants Bernie to talk out of his ass. Perhaps they want him to shut his mouth a moment and open his mind?
Daulnay
@Kylroy: If you are ‘merely upset’ by other peoples’ children being gunned down for no reason other than their skin color, what does that say about your sense of what’s vitally important? And about you as a moral person and human being? How can you, Kylroy, see what’s happened and just shrug your shoulders?
Brachiator
Do people also think that the activists who interrupted Obama a couple of weeks ago were equally frustrated and should have been listened to?
People who disrupt the speeches of presidential candidates are often brave, but they should be shut down and removed from the room as quickly and as quietly as possible. They are more than a nuisance, they potentially add to danger and possible threats against the speaker.
Aside from this, because there are so many worthy, important causes, any candidate who encourages disruption by “respectfully listening” will soon find that he or she will never be able to speak.
@Kropadope
Would Hillary Clinton also be presumptuous? Seems to me that someone running for president is going to have to become an expert on a number of issues.
White Trash Liberal
@Kropadope:
No, but MY ASS.
Listen to yourself. Tell that to Trayvon’s parents. I dare you.
Kylroy
@Daulnay: Hell, by “merely upset”, I didn’t mean white people were upset about the treatment of black people in America, I meant they’re “upset” by even thinking about racism in this country. You’re absolutely right that people who silently condone this are immoral…and when you remind them of that fact, they seek reassurance in the warm, comforting lies of the Republican party.
goblue72
@Kylroy: THIS 1,000x. I am straight, white male voter with a graduate degree and a six-figure income job. In the most crass, realpolitik terms – I don’t need black votes, but they need mine. I’d probably be better off in terms of pure self-interest by voting Republican. I certainly don’t vote that way – but from a pure self-interest perspective, I’d be pretty much no worse off voting GOP (and who knows, a tax cut at my income bracket would actually benefit me more than most Democratic tax credit plans which usually phase-out at my income level).
Politics is about power. And you either play the game to win, or you’re just pissing in the wind. NN is always a fail parade, but yes, lets go suicide bomb the candidates who aren’t going to win, but could help pull Ms. Establishment a little bit more leftward. That is sure to to work out well.
Kropadope
@White Trash Liberal: Like I’ve said, I think Bernie is on the right side of issues important to BLM and if this protest has gotten him to work harder on an approach to better communicate that fact and flesh out those aspects of his platform more, they probably did him a good deed. I don’t see that paying off for them, however, unless he becomes the nominee. Still, I think an economic platform that benefits all Americans will particularly benefit those Americans most harmed by the status quo.
Daulnay
@Applejinx:
I see it as a distinct negative, at least for Bernie. It shows that he’s not thinking very much any more, and that he isn’t paying a lot of attention to what’s going on. He’s stuck in his ideology, and it prevents him from seeing the world as it is. While I like a lot of his positions, I now think he’d make a lousy president.
burnspbesq
@Kerry Reid:
You’re implicitly assuming that they have somewhere else to go. Where, pray tell, would that be?
FlipYrWhig
@Brachiator:
Or do people also think that the activists who interrupted the health care town hall meetings were equally frustrated and should have been listened to?
Punchy
Uh, no. No, it most certainly is not. Why y’all care so much about the DKos Toss Off, I haven’t a clue.
White Trash Liberal
@burnspbesq:
In the general election, nowhere. But in the primaries, they are a bloc that can swing their weight around. And that is what this is about.
burnspbesq
@kc:
Yes, actually, they do (well, kinda sorta). Drum went and found it, and his question is the right one.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/07/whats-next-black-lives-matter
Kropadope
@White Trash Liberal: If they disagreed with my proposition, I would explain to them that I believe that in an economic situation where everyone is seeing their needs met and where the integration of black people to neighborhoods that have few, the resulting reduction of competition for resources and increase of familiarity would make stand your ground laws politically untenable.
They could agree or not, but I’m sure that regardless of that, they would appreciate that I am disgusted by what happened to their son and don’t think anyone should have to go through that.
Still, your appeal to emotion regarding the mindset of people we can’t possibly guess…not cool.
@burnspbesq:
Or that the candidates, do, in fact take them for granted. If Bernie Sanders takes black voters for granted, he hasn’t read a poll in his life.
White Trash Liberal
@Kropadope:
Not cool, but there it is.
Stand Your Ground exists in a separate realm from economic justice. Parents get to worry extra about their kids. Abused wives get to worry extra about their husbands.
This is not economic justice. This is social justice. And it is just as important to recognize that, even if it has to scream in your face.
srv
@burnspbesq: A list of demands is not a list of policy proposals.
RSA
One thing I get from this situation is that the Democratic party needs a better way for issues to be brought into public view. From Raw Story:
It’s easy to see that this tactic can be justified. But if it’s the only effective tactic, then it’ll be hard for a candidate or the party in general to do more than fight fires.
KG
@burnspbesq:
the same place they go in mid-term elections: home, work, school, the movies… anywhere but the polls.
Kropadope
@White Trash Liberal: Social and economic justice are both important. If we’re going to solve the related problems, we can’t ignore the points where they intertwine.
Gavin
The problem with political activism in general is that people who are enough of a Feeler to actually spend time working on a specific cause… rarely have the ability to rationalize correctly to think through how groups of people as a whole will respond.
“IF WE YELL AND GO ONSTAGE” -> Infinite riches.
Yes, changing the system is good — but as the current Republican ratf* named Donald Trump is showing, the only way to actually change the system is to work WITHIN the system, even if you don’t agree with giant pieces of it.
They want the Democratic party to do things, yes? So.. instead of making signs and yelling, find someone who’s better than HRC at debating, defining policy positions, staying calm under pressure, etc. Of course, acquiring all those skills takes time and significant effort which they might not want to invest. Perhaps they should train multiple people AND attempt to alter the debate in the present. You know, like a political party..
In 2008, his name was Barack Obama. Who’s next?
kc
@burnspbesq:
Thanks. I have the same questions myself.
Another Holocene Human
@ruemara: Get well soon.
different-church-lady
@White Trash Liberal:
I’m thinking that part of the problem is that they were asking him to shut his mouth at a moment when someone else had invited him to open it.
White Trash Liberal
I live in an oil boomtown, and for all the hundreds of millions of dollars being thrown our way, not a dime has gone to a woman’s shelter, the dog pound, drug and alcohol rehabilitation… The only way this windfall gets spent towards social justice is through effort at being heard. I have been going back to Catholic mass just so I can bend the priest’s ear about the need for shelters.
From my admittedly anecdotal experience, a thriving economy does not target the disenfranchised. It doesn’t change someone’s mind about “the messicans.”
Brachiator
@FlipYrWhig:
So, do you think that Obama should have been interrupted and shouted down?
Another Holocene Human
@Woodrowfan: How soon we forget. Wow. Just a few days ago we were laughing at those same Phoenix activist community disrupting Trump.
Kylroy
@Another Holocene Human: So the clear lesson is: don’t meet in Phoenix.
Another Holocene Human
@guachi: my god now this is some circular firing squad shit right here
Why is your butt so hurt?
And yet another reminder, just because a few activists did this they don’t speak for all blm activists and all Hewmons actually do not, in fact, look alike.
Roger Moore
@White Trash Liberal:
It doesn’t target the disenfranchised, but it does disproportionately help the economically marginalized, if only because they are the ones who do worst when the economy does badly. Because there’s a big overlap between the two groups, a good economy does tend to help the disenfranchised as a group, even if there are some doubly unfortunate people who are still left out.
One of the things I found fascinating was a comparison of how people did under Democratic vs. Republican administrations depending on race. Very roughly, the Democrats were better than the Republicans overall, and they were especially good for minorities. Whites benefited somewhat under Republicans and a fair amount under Democrats, while minorities went backward under Republicans and did even better than whites under Democrats.
FlipYrWhig
@Brachiator: No. I don’t like disruption and find that most people who sing the praises of disruption and disorder really don’t like it when they’re the ones being interrupted and silenced. Witness the butthurt of the Berniacs since it happened. And I really don’t want there to be a news story about people wearing BlackLivesMatter gear being beaten up by security guards at the next event where there’s more than one candidate scheduled to appear. That’s going to be a PR disaster for everyone.
Cacti
Bottom line.
Emo progs want the discussion of black lives mattering to be in the same “quiet rooms” where Mitt Romney wanted discussions of income inequality.
dogwood
@randy khan:
“It’s important to ask why it bothers you.”
Yes it is. I know exactly why heckling and disruption raise my discomfort to unacceptable levels. When those situations occur and I am the target, I have a ton of tolerance for discomfort because I feel I have some control. When I’m in the audience and the heckling begins, I become highly anxious and completely shut down as far as the content of the protest. I don’t like the feeling of being a voyeur in what might become a very nasty situation. Maybe that means I’m a control freak.
Kylroy
@Cacti: Because Rmoney *totally* had an open signup to discuss any topic people wanted.
Cacti
@Kylroy:
#BlackLivesMatter
#ExceptWhenBernie’sTalking
White Trash Liberal
@Roger Moore:
I agree. There comes a point where the unheard need to raise their voices. There’s been a new and deep entrenchment of social justice issues thanks to ALEC. and like I have been saying, raising corporate taxes does not address stand your ground. It does not address vsginal ultrasounds. It does not address solitary confinement or private for-profit prisons. It does not address mandatory minimums for non-violent offenders. It does not address metadata.
We as a nation have some soul-searching to do about social justice. And ringing the dinner bell of economic justice will not help those in the slaughterhouse.
Kylroy
@Cacti: Yes, letting Bernie’s immigration forum go through as planned would have been a clear injustice against all black people in this fine country.
Another Holocene Human
@Cacti: According to the media, Bernie told the crowd do you wanna chant or do you want me to talk, cause I’m not shouting over you and they shuddup.
But afterwards when he had a free forum to say whatever he wanted to media figures one on one, he ran off with no explanation.
Who knows, maybe he had a high BP event and his people are keeping health issues under wraps, but it was weird.
And that’s why Bern has gotten all the shit on the twitter box since then. It’s pretty simple.
Kylroy
@White Trash Liberal: “We as a nation have some soul-searching to do about social justice.”
Yeah, Carter tried that. Got us 28 years of Reagan and Reagan-lite. Not eager to go back there.
Another Holocene Human
@White Trash Liberal: retrenchment, even
Another Holocene Human
@Kylroy: Carter also deregulated the transportation biz. So what.
Quaker in a Basement
A really smart writer I follow called this out way back in 2008. He said, black folks’ issues are trading cards for today’s white politicians. They will accept those issues and talk about those issues only as long as there is something to be gained by it. As soon as black folks’ issues don’t pay off, the music stops.
Looks to me like some black folks intend to be heard.
Cacti
@Kylroy:
If only those mouthy black people would sit down, shut up, and wait for the proper moment.
That’s always been an effective strategy in advancing social justice.
Kylroy
@Another Holocene Human: So it demonstrates that reminding (white) Americans that they live in a society based on genocide and oppression does not lead them to change those things; it leads them to follow whoever reassures them that they’re just fine.
Brachiator
@FlipYrWhig:
Yep. Absolutely.
Kropadope
@Cacti:
So, when is the immigrants’ moment?
White Trash Liberal
@Another Holocene Human: that, too. Lol oops
Forget it, I’m rolling
White Trash Liberal
@Kylroy:
Oh, so that’s why Carter lost. Best keep quiet, then.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Wow. John McWhorter comes out in support of the BLM protestors and BLM in general, then says “the country” is tired of the implication that “black lives only when taken by white people”, then says the problem is black men and the police
“no way we can draw a line between killing by keepers of order and killing by people in the community”
What the fuck.
Kylroy
@Cacti: The many prominent successes of the Civil Rights Movement using disruptive tactics were against people on the other end of the political spectrum. (As the MLK quote shows, they *criticized* their potential allies plenty.) The most prominent case I can think of leftist elements protesting and disrupting people on their side of the political divide was the 1972 Democratic Convention. Which propelled America into Nixonland. I’m not aware of a case where these Code-Pink-style attacks on potential allies produced good results, and I’ve been living with the fallout from the last major attempt my entire life. If there’s a history of focusing most of your criticism on your allies rather than your enemies getting the results you want, I’m unaware of it.
Another Holocene Human
@Socraticsilence: I agree, it kinda is bullshit, but that’s not what the fight on the twitters has been about. It’s been all this condescending stuff from the whitest malest Bernie supporters around about how these issues need to be stuffed and just shut up and Bernie will save you. They took the conversation there and then yeah you had Elon complaining that Bernie cancelled an interview.
Some of what I’ve read and might explain why an issue hasn’t been made about them overrunning the moderator is that many of the NN15 organizers were sympathetic to the protesters. I mean, they were basically allowed to do what they did.
Kylroy
@White Trash Liberal: Among other things. If this message was an election winner, Carter would have been one of our fondest-remembered presidents. Sometimes democracy sucks.
Another Holocene Human
@Kylroy: The 1972 Democratic National Convention meltdown-palooza caused the success of the Southern Strategy?
Kylroy
@Kropadope: When *they* storm a stage about something unrelated, naturally.
LAC
So, will we be seeing a bunch of grumpy sweaty sanderistas at the DC Hilton next summer to film “electric PUMA boogaloo part 2: The rematch”?
Hard to give up the addiction to magic rainbow pony crack, even if it is 73 years old and would need a whole new congress to get shit done.
Kylroy
@Another Holocene Human: No, but it helped propel it.
Another Holocene Human
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’d be outraged if I knew who the fuck John McWhorter was.
Myiq2xu
Did you really think I was gonna miss watching John Cole implode from trying to reconcile his hyper-partisanship and his acute CDS?
His Hillary-hating posts from 2007-2008 are a treasure trove of unintentional humor now.
Another Holocene Human
@White Trash Liberal: :)
Cacti
@White Trash Liberal:
And 2016 is just like 1980 because reasons.
Another Holocene Human
@Kylroy: Every little bit of progress is followed by a reactionary swing. It doesn’t mean you don’t try.
White Trash Liberal
@Myiq2xu:
Hi meatprod. Bye meatprod.
Myiq2xu
@Gravenstone: Who are you?
Another Holocene Human
@Kropadope: He’s apparently not doing polling, so….
Brachiator
@Another Holocene Human:
Context matters.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Another Holocene Human: Afrian-American Columbia English prof, public intellectual, self-ID’d “cranky liberal Democrat” who works for the Conservatarian Manhattan Institute. An interesting writer who I thought had been steadily drifting right for the last few years, with a tendency toward preaching “pull your pants up”. That’s why I was surprised to hear him say he supported the BLM protesters, and then confused, given his libertarian leanings, that he actually can’t or won’t see that armed agents of state authority killing citizens is in a category all by itself.
Myiq2xu
@White Trash Liberal: Go fuck a goat.
The Raven on the Hill
I would really like to see some interviews with the people who organized the protest, and hear their reasoning. We all seem to be second-guessing them, and that’s no way to do.
Sly
@goblue72:
You’re actually not. Conservatism offers you a power that is not worth attaining, and certainly not worth maintaining once you have it. That power demands that you be an unfeeling monster, and it will beat you over the head until you become one. We look at the countless black victims of police brutality and are aghast at their suffering. We do not ask what caused the officers who brutalized them to believe that such brutality was not only moral, but necessary. Typically because we are frightened of the proposition that that officer could be any one of us.
Black people need your vote to stay alive. You need their vote so that your life actually means something.
Paula
@Kerry Reid:
Wow … That’s … Not a good look for a self-proclaimed leftist.
Sly
@sparrow:
Congratulations. You couldn’t have missed my point more unless you jumped into the Millennium Falcon and flew 100,000 light years away from it.
Another Holocene Human
@Kropadope: ??? What about this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/04/29/black-turnout-was-higher-than-white-turnout-in-2012-and-2008/
Black voters are NOT purity progging and staying home on election day. (They do under-turnout on off cycle elections but their participation is up in the last two off cycles as well. Unfortunately the ranks of olds are over-represented by Whitey because Whitey doesn’t keel over of a heart attack at age 50 or colon cancer at 55 or diabeetus at 60 because of the deadly stress of living in a racist world.)
I’d be interested in your argument but please start with the facts first.
Another Holocene Human
Also in my experience in the South Blacks participate in labor unions and labor actions more eagerly than whites and Blacks involved in labor unions are more likely to be plugged into politics. When I lobby African American politicians in Tallahassee they down, baby, DOWN on labor issues, which are very important to their constituencies. So I’m not sure where these Black labor (non) voters in the woodwork might be.
different-church-lady
I’m starting to get that wonderful “Thank God politicians don’t pay attention to blogs” feeling again.
Roger Moore
@Another Holocene Human:
+eleventy. Note that this applies to whatever your pet issue is, too, not just whatever other issue you think should get ignored so your personal favorite gets preference.
dogwood
If we believe what BLM says, that their goal is to shut down every debate, then we should expect them to meet their goals. Shutting down debates and candidate forums is actually pretty easy.
Kylroy
@Cacti: Have…have you tried talking to a white person about race? Does anything about that experience make you think this is a winning issue with them, i.e. 72% of the population (and more of the electorate)?
Kylroy
@Sly: “You need their vote so that your life actually means something.” Evidence suggests plenty of white people do not feel that way.
kc
@The Raven on the Hill:
This link contains excerpts from, commentary on, and a link to an interview, albeit a short one.
JimGod
@The Raven on the Hill: Ask and ye shall receive.
http://mattbruenig.com/2015/07/18/haha-what/
Tia Oso sounds as dumb as a rock in her explinations. I guess Presidential candidates are supposed to personally donate to student organizations or they don’t care about those issues? Insanity.
Kropadope
@Another Holocene Human: According to the story, both black and white voters outperformed their demographic slice of the general population in 08 and 12. The biggest difference about those two elections were almost certainly having Obama on the ballot.
Just like Bernie, Obama spoke to the ambitions of working people; that if you work hard and play by the rules, you shouldn’t be able to have your life destroyed by becoming sick or some other unforeseeable event. Obama supported fledgling renewable energy firms and helped students trying to make a better life for themselves with the ARRA (for just a couple examples).
The race and social issues both need to be addressed, but they can’t be entirely separated. Obama saw that. That is why turnout was so high in 08 and 12.
kc
@Another Holocene Human:
Links, pls. Thanks.
Kylroy
@Another Holocene Human: There’s a reactionary swing, and then there’s a multi-generational redrawing of the entire political reality of the country.
Bill
Here’s what I understand happened at NN.
Two Democratic candidates were invited to speak. Both were interrupted by a core Democratic constituency and loudly asked how they were going to address a very important issue for the Democratic party if nominated. Both answered the questions, to the liking of some and the disapproval of others.
Isn’t this exactly the process is supposed to work? Aren’t the candidates supposed to be challenged? Sometimes even interrupted until the answer important questions?
I don’t see what the problem is with any of this. This was hardly the Chicago Convention in 68.
goblue72
@Sly: I don’t actually. And I don’t need to buy into the GOP’s hate factory to benefit from the tax cuts to my income bracket they will provide me. And I occupy a level high enough on the food chain that I don’t have to worry about healthcare or retirement – my current employer provides both, and if they stop doing so, I will shop my talent around to someone willing to provide them to me. Again, I don’t vote along those lines ever, and I am a communitarian person at heart.
But at the end of the day, do I need black lives to give my life meaning? Not really.
Its bitter medicine, but politics is not about self-actualization or spiritual fulfillment. You want that, go to church or go volunteer at a soup kitchen. Politics is about power. Period.
Jimgod
@Kylroy: This. This is the ultimate point. As someone with experience in the white community, making this the be all, end all of the Democratic primary will loose the 2016 General Election. There has to be context and coalition-building, and you don’t do that by “disrupting every debate”. Sorry.
different-church-lady
@Bill:
No, that’s the way it used to work. The way it works today is that we all shout at each other and then when somehow that doesn’t result in getting what we want we all shout at each other some more.
Jimgod
@goblue72: An inconvenient truth. And the poster above talking about regional bases for the Democrats appears to be correct. And for that, he’s called a troll. I don’t get it. The path to power for this party is through these regional coalitions. You cannot make the Democratic Party the BLM party to the exclusion of everything else; that perception killed them in the 1980s and could damage the party again.
mtiffany
@srv:
I’m pretty sure “Quit killing us” counts as both.
burnspbesq
@goblue72:
Not quite. If electoral politics isn’t, so some extent, about what you’re going to do with power if it’s given to you, then why bother.
To cite only one obvious example, it will make a real and significant difference in millions of peoples’ lives (including yours and mine) whether the person appointed to fill the next vacancy on the Supreme Court is Sri Srinivasan or Janice Rogers Brown.
Sly
@Kylroy:
Never said they didn’t. All I said was that their status anxiety has driven them mad.
@goblue72:
Communitarian people generally don’t tell everyone how easy it would be for them to become a selfish prick, because being a selfish prick is against their given interests. It sounds like your either making some kind of pointless veiled threat, or looking for praise.
Affectation is for suckers.
Never said it was about “spiritual fullfillment,” whatever that’s supposed to mean.
Bill
@different-church-lady:
Ok, but in the end isn’t that shouting in order to persuade people to vote one way or the other? And isn’t that what happened at NN?
I just don’t see why anyone is upset with this. Or why it;s being seen as a “circular firing squad.”
People spoke their minds (whether by screaming or otherwise) on an important issue. The candidates responded. We all now have more information. Do with it what you will.
daveNYC
@Another Holocene Human: “And yet another reminder, just because a few activists did this they don’t speak for all blm activists and all Hewmons actually do not, in fact, look alike.”
Technically true, but realistically they interrupted two presidential candidates and caused a major ruckus. As far as the media and probably the majority of the population goes these guys are BLM.
Just think how distilled down the cast of the civil rights movement is for most people, there’s MLK, maybe Malcom X, and then some vague supporting cast that 90% of the country wouldn’t recognize if they bit them in the ass.
mtiffany
@Jimgod:
That’s not what the protest/movement is about — it’s getting the party to acknowledge that the problem the exists in the first place. A point that I’ve made in other threads: if you’re old enough to remember the gay community’s response to the AIDS crisis of late 80s/early 90s, then when you see #BlackLivesMatter, think SILENCE = DEATH. That was the way I was able to wrap my head around it.
goblue72
@Jimgod: Its certainly not a message that is going to deliver back Congress – which is critical to enacting the policies that progressives claim they want enacted. For every black vote that is turned out in Philadelphia or Cleveland or Miami, two white votes in the Philly and Cleveland and Miami suburbs either stay home or decide to vote Republican.
Obama was a master at soft pedaling around those issues during the 2008 and 2012 campaigns, only dealing with those issues at pointed, defined times and in terms of soaring “we shall all overcome together” type language designed to make everyone feel all warm & fuzzy about the ability to make progress together. Did my inner id wish he’d have let loose with a “the foundations of the nation are built on the blood of the black man!!!!!”? You betcha. But my rational self is damn glad he didn’t. Winning is what matters; losers only get to go home and pout.
I have no problem with protest – if its tactical in support of a larger strategy. Otherwise, its just a temper tantrum, and winds up looking that way to the mushy middle. Which is exactly what the Nutroots Nation fiasco looks like.
goblue72
@burnspbesq: For which those in power are not going to do so one way or another because of some protest at NN. But who gets to hold the reigns might. depending on how the actual voting electorate perceives BLM.
But thanks for playing, tax lawyer.
dogwood
When I think of the ugly intersection between racism and law enforcement, I do have a certain envy toward the Republican Party whose voters may be dumb as posts yet still understand that local and state government matters. We have to face the fact as a party, that we have problem when, after the horrors of what went down in Ferguson, the majority of eligible black voters did not vote in the subsequent city council elections. We won’t get the kind of comprehensive progressive reform we need until we wake up to the fact government is more than the presidency. Yelling at a clueless crank like Bernie Sanders, a guy who will never be president, is good theater, but accomplishes very little.
goblue72
@Sly: I’m not looking for affirmation. Just noting that you – an anonymous person on the Internet – have absolutely no idea what I “need” to give my life meaning. To quote you:
“You need their vote so that your life actually means something.”
And since I know myself – and you most certainly do not – I can say quite unequivocally – no, I do not. Family, friends, etc. – yes. The votes of black voters on Election Day? Not really.
Sly
@Jimgod:
Black people make a reasonable demand on candidates of a political party; a political party to which black people have been exceptionally loyal, because that party represents the most credible vehicle for delivering liberal policies to the public, and black people have been the most liberal demographic since American liberalism has been a thing. Black women in particular.
For this, they get called selfish and divisive.
I’ll give you this: I’ve been white my whole life, and you have certainly demonstrated your familiarity with my community.
There’s a reason why the multi-racial coalition is the Holy Grail of left politics in the United States, and its certainly not because white people have been waiting on black people to stop being so selfish and get on board with a broad-spectrum political movement. We’re the ones who are consistently late for that train, and most of the time we never even bother trying to make it to the station.
But finally a white socialist runs for President, and we feel all back of the bus and shit because a bunch of black women interrupted him at one of the hundreds of speeches he’ll give on his path to being a likely distant runner-up.
kc
Lemme just leave this here:
The Raven on the Hill
@kc: @JimGod: Thank you. David Dayen on the job. That man’s going to get a Pulitzer one of these days.
What he reports is discouraging. Ms. Oso attacked and, probably, permanently damaged the candidate most sympathetic to her views, right, sure, that makes sense.
David Simon (The Wire) makes a good case that O’Malley is in fact the single person most responsible for the dissolution of the Baltimore police police department into unchecked brutality, leading to the death of Freddie Gray.
We are measuring our candidates by their manner and appearance, rather than the substance of their policies. No wonder we are unhappy with the policies we get!
Sly
@goblue72: So teach everyone a lesson and vote Republican if its so easy and it makes so much sense for you to do so. Maybe then I won’t be so presumptuous, and black liberals won’t be so uppity.
goblue72
@dogwood: Republicans are so dumb that they’ve controlled Congress for the majority of the time since 1994, as well as controlling SCOTUS (on most issues) over that entire time period, as well as the White House for a third of it, and controlled the majority of state legislatures and governor offices for most of that time period.
So dumb they keep winning.
goblue72
@Sly: You’re the one with the bug up your behind,not me.
EthylEster
@sparrow wrote:
A close examination of the stmt reveals that it does not say “If you are ever bothered by any disruption, that only adds to the proof of its necessity.”
No one proposed that approach as a general way to do anything. Reading comprehension fail.
kc
@EthylEster:
Fine. It’s beyond stupid as a way to evaluate the worthiness of this particular protest.
Cacti
@Sly:
Upper middle class, white, paterfamilius is certain he knows what black people really need.
And unsurprisingly, it consists of black people sitting down, shutting up, and letting the upper middle class white males speak.
Good thing there’s no such thing as liberal racism.
Tripod
I’m a white American male. Everyone should listen to my ideas no matter how stupid they are.
Kropadope
@Cacti:
Good thing you totally aren’t distorting what people are saying.
Uncle Ebeneezer
How can any Presidential candidate not have an answer ready for the question of what they would do as President to confront the problem of racial injustice? It’s only the biggest fucking story of the past year!! I mean, did they think they would be able to coast through to a General Election without anyone daring to ask them about it? If this were some wonky question about foreign relations with Kazakstan it would be understandable. But to not even have a stock answer or some kind of let-me-get-back-to-you-after-I-consult-with-leaders-in-the-Black-community deflection prepared is pretty staggering. Especially for Sanders who has been running for a while now. Pretty bad for professional politicians trying to convince us they are ready for prime time. At least O’Malley showed up to his TWIB interview, listened to L Joy Williams and gave his best attempt at an answer. Far from a perfect answer, needs more detail etc., but at least he didn’t storm off the stage when somebody asked a question he wasn’t planning to answer.
Cacti
@Kropadope:
Ah “context”, the favorite shield of paternalistic racism.
Jimgod
The point goblue72, Kropadope, and I along with other here are making is that whitey isn’t going to take kindly to this type of in-your-face tactics. The optics will drive more white voters into Republican hands. If this group insists on doing this to every Democratic debate, then the party and we are in big trouble. Nobody is saying for people to sit down and be quiet. The best thing would be to stand for election as precinct committee people in the Democratic primaries and go to local and state conventions to draw up new platforms that call for concrete action to address their concerns. If all they’re going to do is this disruption stuff, then it’s for nothing as it will aid the Republicans in 2016. Goblue72 nailed it in his comment about the suburban vote.
Kropadope
@Cacti:
Cacti
@Kropadope:
Does your back get sore from carrying all that white man’s burden around every day?
Jimgod
@Cacti: Clearly everyone who disagrees with you and the tactics of the protesters is a racist. Keep it up. Enjoy the Republican sweep of 2016. You’re greasing the skids for it marvelously.
Sly
@Jimgod:
Placating dumb and narcissistic white people isn’t the solution to our deepest political problems. It is our deepest political problem.
Cacti
@Jimgod:
It’s a new world, paterfamilius.
White people hate the current POTUS for even existing, and he cruised to reelection with only 39% of the white vote.
The share of the white vote is going to shrink again in 2016, and the next GOPer candidate will likely need about 63% of the white vote just to keep pace with Romney’s losing effort in the last election, and more than that to exceed it.
The days of chasing “Reagan Democrats” are over.
different-church-lady
@Cacti: So who will black people be electing next year? (I know Bernie and O’Malley are obviously out at this point.)
Kropadope
@Cacti: Well, at least you’re funny.
Look, I try to help people when I can; mostly on a personal basis, though I try to help with things like social justice issues of the type BLM cares about too. I do too little, who doesn’t?
People here have an activist mindset overall (why else post on a political blog) and if I can get a couple people to turn their protests toward the people who are actually supporting the policies that oppress them; I still can’t say I did much, but I honestly believe that is the best way to get the changes they seek.
We can disagree on tactics til the cows come home, but frankly it insults me how many people are ready to assume I don’t care about black lives.
Also, disrespecting the idea of context, soooooooooo Republican.
Kropadope
@Cacti:
Self-refuting argument refutes itself. Unless you agree with Republicans that those 39% of white voters aren’t really white.
Cacti
@Kropadope:
Au contraire.
Saying that one’s bigoted statement was “taken out of context” is part and parcel of every Republican (non) apology.
Cacti
@Sly:
And yet, given our 239 year history of cultural and institutional white supremacy, a certain group of myopic liberals are still certain that white people need another round of foot massages and soothing talk.
EthylEster
@kc:
Well, I happen to disagree.
Black people cannot ever become the majority in the US so they can never get their agenda addressed by voting it in themselves. They must depend on non-Blacks to embrace their agenda.
Dems are their best chance but frankly I think many white Dems are like white Repubs in that they are made very uncomfortable by race talk. It’s just mid-blowing how touchy the subject is for whites.
Maybe nothing changes until brown folks are the majority and utterly overwhelm the idea of white supremacy in the US.
Kropadope
@Cacti:
Some of them may make that claim sometimes, but they’re usually counting on people not to check the facts. The facts of the matter are that they’re defending themselves against claims completely supported by the context and their defense is essentially “forget the original context for that statement and let me put it in this new one that isn’t as offensive.”
kc
@Cacti:
Wait, where was the bigoted statement? Who made it?
MBunge
I don’t spend time on the Twitter so I can’t comment on how badly Bernie supporters there have behaved. It seems that most of the a-hole behavior in these comment threads is coming from the BLM folks who apparently believe anyone who deviates at all from the approved BLM opinion is a Racist McRacington.
Mike
kc
@EthylEster:
Yes, but. Shouting down and then spending days mocking the guy who comes closest of all the candidates to embracing their agenda just seems counterproductive to me.
ETA: I don’t think Bernie’s electable anyway, just sayin’.
different-church-lady
@EthylEster:
Of course they’re fucking “uncomfortable” — it’s an incredibly loaded, delicate, heartbreaking topic and and even the most sympathetic white liberal cannot possibly comprehend what it’s like to bear the burden of racism. And if they care at all they’re constantly worried about sticking their foot on a mine and making things worse.
From that set of realities there’s two questions: a) are the whites liberals gonna have the fortitude to bear that comparatively minor inconvenience in order to help things and b) are blacks gonna decide to rhetorically beat up even the ones that want to do something from the white side of the divide just because they’re white?
Kropadope
@kc:
Here is one, however inconsequential.
J R in WV
@goblue72:
You would be wrong in voting for the republicans out of self-interest. I’m always amazed that people don’t seem to be aware that everyone has improving economic outcomes during Democratic administrations, even the wealthy.
But it is true. When rich and well-to-do people vote republican, they vote against their own interests, and Democratic administrations will benefit everyone far more than republican administrations. This has been true for at least since the end of World War II, the article says the past 80 years….
Look:
This isn’t from some socialistic liberal site, either. It’s from Forbes, who are quoting from a book which delves into it pretty deeply. (hope that link works! ETA: Yay, it works!)
So now we know that republicans are crazy – they vote to make themselves poorer!
Kropadope
@different-church-lady:
Fortunately for campaign researchers, we have done them the service of providing a lot of data for those two questions.
different-church-lady
@Kropadope: Us here in particular? I doubt it’s a scientifically valid sample.
Cacti
@kc:
Kylroy
goblue72
Jimgod
Kropadope
Are there any other upper middle class white male “liberals” at BJ who would like to let the black folks know that the Dem party can’t be too black because 1980, and that they need to be quiet when the white men are speaking?
Kropadope
@different-church-lady: Not every experiment can be controlled. Observations of wild animals in their natural habitats can yield valuable insights.
Kropadope
@Cacti: (Not very) sorry to nitpick, but none of those quotes are from me.
different-church-lady
@Kropadope: Observation of what you did there has been recorded.
Kropadope
@different-church-lady: Forgive me, I’m not quite sure how to take that.
different-church-lady
@Kropadope: Then my work here has not been in vain.
Cacti
So, how many of the African American posters at BJ agree that BLM needs to sit down, shut up, and let Bernie address them on his own terms?
Or any of the other Dem candidates for that matter?
Kropadope
@different-church-lady: Well, then, I guess you win.
different-church-lady
@Cacti: Is that the only choice on this test?
different-church-lady
@Kropadope: Trust me, when nobody knows what I’m talking about, then we all win.
Kropadope
@different-church-lady: Wait, maybe it’s one of those logic tests where you need to find the faulty logic. I want to say false dilemma, but that doesn’t seem to fit perfectly.
@different-church-lady: I’ve just been so busy being called an asshole all day and most of last night that I was feeling insecure. Sorry, shouldn’t be putting that on you.
different-church-lady
@Kropadope: No biggie. I don’t take this joint too seriously and neither should anyone else.
Jimgod
@Cacti: Yes, I disprove of the tactics of the BLM protesters, particularly since the leader at this event seems to be very unclear about what she actually wants to see happen. Yes, this makes me a bigot apparently. I denounce myself. And I also denounce Stalin. Tune in tomorrow when I’ll be denouncing George Wallace and Leonid Brezhnev.
different-church-lady
@Jimgod: What, still dithering about broccoli?
TooManyJens
@guachi:
You can’t have looked through the list of panels, then. Let me help you out with that.
http://www.netrootsnation.org/nn_events/nn-15/building-black-brown-coalitions/ (Tia Oso, who led the BLM protest at the town hall, was on this panel)
http://www.netrootsnation.org/nn_events/nn-15/america-awakens-activism-action-restoring-trust-between-community-police/
http://www.netrootsnation.org/nn_events/nn-15/mass-employment-not-mass-incarceration/
So don’t say they couldn’t be bothered to set up panels when in fact you’re the one who couldn’t be bothered to find out about them. It makes you sound like those Fox News viewers who bleat “but how come I never hear black people talking about all the shootings in Chicago?”
TooManyJens
Damn, I’m in moderation because I gave guachi too many links to those panels about BLM issues that s/he said didn’t exist.
Jimgod
@different-church-lady: I enjoy broccoli, especially when sauteed in garlic. Yum. So I’ll only denounce the broccoli mandate.
Cacti
@Jimgod:
Yes, yes, you poor, picked on little violet.
Won’t anyone stop and think more about the concerns of the white guys. They surely aren’t getting enough attention.
msdc
@TopClimber:
But no soul searching and realization that the Black Lives Matter movement also needs to address racism more effectively.
Any suggestion otherwise, any criticism at all really, “only adds to the proof of its necessity.” QED.
TooManyJens
@msdc: And why are you so sure you know better than they do how to address racism effectively? Black Lives Matter has made police brutality a national issue. They’ve accelerated the adoption of body cameras. They’ve brought media and DOJ attention to incidents that otherwise would have been business as usual. They got the damn traitor flag taken down in SC and out of major retailers. They’re forcing presidential candidates to say what they’d do to improve policing and end mass incarceration. For a movement that started 11 months ago, that looks pretty effective to me.
jenn
Looks like this is a dead thread, but just to chime in with my somewhat contradictory opinion. I really hate the hijacking-of-a-program kind of protests, and it doesn’t make me think particularly well of the protest organizers themselves (which is entirely a separate thing from the #BlackLivesMatter movement, which I wholeheartedly support). However, here we are still talking about it, and people are *thinking* about it, and it’s quite possible that *policymakers* are thinking about it. So however much I don’t like that style of protest, it seems to have done its job. And in the long run, I really can’t see this hurting Sanders’ and O’Malley’s campaigns – unless of course, they *AREN’T* concerned about conscious/subconscious/structural racism, in which case it *SHOULD* hurt them.
TooManyJens
@jenn: That is 100% how I feel about it as well. It’s not a style of protest I like, but if it works, it’s going to happen. People can respond well, or poorly. Biden responded well when it happened to him last year. Sanders responded poorly. O’Malley fumbled at first but recovered and actually came out of the whole thing fairly well, IMO. (His interview with L. Joy Williams afterward is worth watching if you haven’t seen it.)
kc
@TooManyJens:
So they had all those panels but still disrupted the one lead by an immigrant?
jenn
@TooManyJens: Thanks, no I haven’t seen it. I’ll check it out!
CT Hank
@Applejinx:
I agree much of your drift but take exception to this sentence: “As such I see Bernie’s blithely lumping everyone together, and drawing class distinctions while totally denying race distinctions, as a kind of positive.”
It just isn’t true that Bernie is “totally denying race distinctions.” I’m a strong Sanders supporter but I also find the BLM protest completely defensible. The discomfort Bernie experienced is as nothing to the discomfort and terror experienced by people of color. I believe Bernie gets that, his annoyed response in the heat of the moment notwithstanding.
BUT I also feel that there are folks who, for whatever political reasons, are trying to paint a totally dishonest and unfair portrait of Sanders on race. The man has a history and it’s a good one. Why are there folks trying to smear him as not an ally?
Jimgod
@kc: Careful, you’ll be labeled a bigot if you go much further with that line of questioning. Then you’ll have to denounce yourself, me and Stalin. On the serious note, I found that a little curious as well. Clearly, OUTREACH must be improved on all sides. Otherwise interest group will just big-foot interest group and everyone gets pissed e.g. People’s Front of Judea, Judean Peoples Front
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Myiq2xu:
Hey GoatBoy, are you sharing your herd now? It figures that it would take your racist PUMA goatfucking ass to drag me out of retirement here. Remember Goatocalypse Now? You were awesome!
Either way I just wanted to stop in and shit on you for old times sake.