Here is the Sanders rally from last night. HRC better get her campaign in gear and start packing auditoriums and generating buzz or this is going to slip away from her again.
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Here is the Sanders rally from last night. HRC better get her campaign in gear and start packing auditoriums and generating buzz or this is going to slip away from her again.
Comments are closed.
Dave C
While I like Bernie Sanders, I am not 100% convinced that the reaction of the People’s Republic of Madison is necessarily indicative of the Democratic primary voters as a whole.
Cathie from Canada
The Republicans will be supporting Bernie for all they are worth — on a national stage, Saunders cannot possibly win a presidential election (too old, too far left) so they would love it if the democrats made the mistake of nominating him. Unfortunately, just about any of the repub clown car could win over Bernie.
jl
And here is Sanders directly answering questions about gun control and his appeal to minority voters, since those topics have been a source of debate here on this miserable lefty blog.
Bernie Sanders Says He’ll Win New Hampshire, Iowa, and the White House
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn-8DG_CKso
Rex Tremendae
Polling shows HRC leads Republicans by 10-15 points = she’s killing the GOP field.
Polling shows HRC leads Sanders by 30 points = feel the Bernie-mentum!
maya
We need a bigger clown car too. Bernie is their Hermie. Remember him?
Tommy
We talk about the right having to appeal to their base. Well I am to the far left and Sanders appeals to me. I will most likely have to vote for Clinton, and I will do so because I always vote. But then again I went door-to-door for Jerry Brown in Louisiana. I’ve never backed a single person in the primary that won. So what do I know!
smintheus
If Joe Biden enters the race, there’s no telling. He could end up undercutting either Clinton’s or Sanders’ support.
jl
@Cathie from Canada: I think an uncontested primary campaign is bad for HRC. O’Malley is in too, and let us see if he can catch up to Sanders.
So far, I would take our clown car over the GOP’s any day. I suspect Webb will manage to get himself stuck in the trunk, so he should not be a factor.
@smintheus: but there has not be a peep from Biden, so maybe he has enough sense to not run a vanity campaign. Biden might do OK in the general, but he won’t get much support in primary, never has and I don’t see that changing now with HRC, Sanders and O’Malley in.
eric
This should serve to inspire younger voters that full-throated liberalism is acceptable on a big stage. Hillary is not Bernie’s real opponent, but established monied interests that dont want that excite to percolate up through the local political ranks. That is where the Right achieved its biggest gains, i.e., true local electoral control, and where liberals need to fight back hardest. So, the real fight will be against the coming media marginalization of bernie’s liberalism in the event that he predictably cannot beat a so-called centrist candidate.
KG
@Cathie from Canada: tough to say, there aren’t many (if any) national polls with Sanders included. and at the state level, there seems to be a serious from mid-June that includes Walker against the Dem field in a couple of states – Walker wins in those, but it may be a name recognition thing as they are Iowa (where Walker has been “not running”) and Ohio (so possible regional advantage). Sanders’ problem will likely be the same as Paul’s and Trump’s – none of them look especially presidential.
the Conster
@Cathie from Canada:
I remember everyone telling me a black man with a strange foreign name could never be elected.
Tommy
@jl: Biden won’t run. But I would vote for him. I have mentioned here my father worked at high levels within the DoD. Biden used to pick up the phone and call my father. Ask him what was going on. My father was just a civil servant. He hated the calls because it created a ton of paperwork. I take a different thought. He seemed to care about what was going on.
Cacti
Sure Cole.
That’s why Bernie is polling lower nationally than Joe Biden who isn’t even a candidate.
piratedan
still, 10k of folks showing up 16 months ahead of an election is still impressive. I think someone talking about policy and projects and ideas is so far ahead of what the GOP will offer and can offer. Doesn’t mean that if Sanders does somehow manage to b the nominee that we wont have a good four months of nonstop character assassination but hell, we’re gonna get that no matter the nominee.
Doesn’t even matter what skeletons may be in his closet, the GOP will just make shit up if they need to.
I would prefer Sanders and if he excites enough people with this election and the GOP continues its non-stop assault on sanity, then who knows, we could have a Congress and Senate that can actually do a few things together.
WereBear
I’m in it for Bernie, and what does centrist even mean? To me it reeks of Bobo, and all he means is a Republican who isn’t foaming at the mouth.
Mike J
Yes, I remember Howard Dean. White guy from Vermont. The cool kids that want to stick it to the man support him. Actually voting smacks of effort though.
Socraticsilence
@maya:
Herman Cain was a former CEO with Sexual Harassment issues, Bernie Sanders is a long-serving federal level legislator who frankly was more successful in actual getting pieces of his agenda through than Hillary was as a Senator, I don’t get this comparison.
MDC
Why are so many Deems and liberals so ready to settle for mediocrity so early in the process? Let’s give Bernie a chance.
F
@the Conster:
I’ll just put this up here.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx
Felonius Monk
Wait until Webb hits the campaign trail — he will pack a phone booth or two, maybe.
Dolly Llama
Way OT, but I’m up in your neck of the woods for the Fourth weekend, Mr. Cole. I’m visiting a friend in Shinnston and just finished a round of disc golf over in Fairmont. That’s close to you, right?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I remember Obama hosting a huge rally in Madison in the fall of 2010. A few weeks later, Wisconsin voted in Scott Walker and Ron Johnson.
Six months away from the caucus, with her campaign still in low gear, and apparently fifty million plus in the bank, and the people who organized Obama’s upset on her payroll, Hillary’s lead in Iowa is down to 20% (per the MSNBC poll I saw about half an hour ago). I don’t think she should panic yet. I think if anybody’s watching this saying, “What the fuck!”, it’s O’Malley.
MDC
@F: People don’t vote for abstract categories, they vote for actual candidates.
Cacti
@Felonius Monk:
Webb appears to be running for Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman’s old spot as Republicans’ favorite Democrat.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see him give a speech at the RNC draped by the confederate flag he’s so defensive about.
Tommy
@MDC: I can only speak for myself but I think we are beat down. Not a single person I’ve ever wanted made it out of the primary. When you lose for 20+ years it wears on you.
Dolly Llama
@smintheus: If Biden enters it, I think he wins it. He’d have my vote if he does.
JPL
@jl: Thanks but his voting record is mixed when it comes to gun control.
I don’t know why he was against the Brady Bill but here are some more recent votes…
link
smintheus
@F: I’ll just put this up here too.
Cacti
@Dolly Llama:
I think Joe is the only other Dem out there that could be a credible challenger to HRC in this cycle.
WaterGirl
I think I might never stop laughing if it turned out that all this bullshit “Obama is a socialist” crap backfired and let to low information voters thinking that maybe a socialist isn’t that scary after all – and that left them open to voting for Bernie Sanders.
Dolly Llama
@Cacti: I think he’d stomp her ass, honestly. People say his “gaffes” would get him in trouble, or whatever? The average voter would eat that shit up. He’d be like a good guys’ Chris Christie.
the Conster
Bernie’s framing the issues and doing the heavy lifting right now- clearly people want to hear him say what we all know about the rigged game. All the other candidates are going to have to walk that path too, so good for him.
jl
@JPL: Thanks for link to voting record. I just put up that link to the interview so people can get Sanders’ own comments, since some (maybe named Koch) have asserted that Sanders is scared to talk about gun control.
Sanders has problems, HRC has problems, O’Malley has problems. If any of us commenters ran for president, it would be found out soon that we all have problems.
I want most electable candidate to be nominated. I don’t think electability of anyone is helped by an uncontested nomination, though.
Edit: probably next test of Sanders is what he says when he does not win all those primaries he is bragging about winning.
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Can you say more about what you mean by that? It’s an interesting comment, but I’m not exactly sure why O’Malley would be saying that.
sharl
@Dolly Llama: Cole actually lives in Bethany, which is up in WV’s northern “spike”, a little over 90 minutes away* by car from Fairmont.
*(per Google Maps; always see the exit for Fairmont when I’m taking I-79 to I-68 to return to MD from OH, and never bothered to see where it is until now…)
WaterGirl
@Dolly Llama: Could not agree more.
Here’s the comment I left at the bottom of the webb thread:
Of all the non-laughable choices, I’d like to see Joe Biden as president and O’Malley as his VP.
Dolly Llama
@WaterGirl: Not to speak for anyone else, but I took it to mean “Fuck! How does that old man pull that kind of turnout?”
Dolly Llama
@sharl: Well, it’s closer than Raleigh, anyhow. Pretty country up here.
jl
@WaterGirl: I can say WTF about O’Malley’s relentlessly negative approach to campaigning so far. I don’t think his approach to HRC or Sanders candidacies is helpful.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@WaterGirl: He’s been running longer, been to Iowa a bunch of times IIANM, and on paper should be both a hero of what we used to (maybe still do) call the netroots, and as a two-term governor of a state larger and more diverse than Vermont, should be considered a first tier candidate by the VSPs and the MSM. I have nothing for or against him (except his truly pathetic performance as an Obama surrogate), and I’m genuinely surprised he doesn’t get a lot more love from the blogs and more attention from the Village.
Betty Cracker
@WaterGirl: That would be ironic and hilarious.
Cacti
@jl:
Biden would take O’Malley or Sanders to the woodshed in a primary election.
Hillary would be his competition.
John Cole
@Dolly Llama: If you are in Fairmont make sure they take you to Muriale’s.
Dolly Llama
@John Cole: I’m here seeing a lady friend, so if anyone does the “taking,” it’ll be me, but thanks for the recommendation, brotherman.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Cacti: I’ve seen it said in the toobz that Biden’s dream job, besides president, is SOS. Maybe he’s dropping hints to Clintonites about the price of his staying on the sidelines.
Then again, I have also seen it said on the internet that cinnamon will prevent diabetes.
As to Biden squeezing out Sanders, I’m so old I remember when Biden was the Senator from MNBA and bragged about co-authoring the Iraq AUMF. And he has run for president a couple times before and, kind of like O’Malley, just never caught fire. And I like the guy, just wandering down memory lane because it’s too hot to actually move.
Arclite
Wow, full house! Rock on Bernie! Unlike the Klown Kar Kavalcade, Bernie would actually know what to do in office. He’d make a fantastic prez.
WaterGirl
@John Cole: I must protest. They don’t even tell you whether “Aunt Mary’s Lasagna” is meat lasagna or cheese lasagna!
jl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Biden would be good SOS.
Biden has never gotten much support in primaries no matter who is running, so contra Cacti above, I don’t see why this time should be different. I am a Biden fan, but he just does not do well nationally. I don’t know why, but that has been his history.
Cacti
@jl:
Non-candidate Biden is polling higher than candidates Sanders and O’Malley nationally.
SatanicPanic
Biden? He wasn’t even top tier in 2008, do you guys really think VP is that big of a bump?
WaterGirl
@jl: I think Biden has earned a lot of good will in his 6+ years as VP. He has taken the lead on some meat and potatoes issues and I think he would wipe the floor with the other candidates if he entered. If I were him, though, I would wait until after Iowa and New Hampshire.
(even though that goes against the traditional way to do things)
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
Well, in terms of name recognition, is your average voter more likely to know the Vice President of the United States, the former Governor of Maryland, or the junior US Senator from Vermont?
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: yeah, against those two, sure, but against Hillary?
Davis X. Machina
@the Conster: Remind me about Sanders’ legendary 2012 convention keynote…
Dolly Llama
@SatanicPanic: I absolutely think VP is that big a bump. If he got in the race, it changes everything. Everything. As in you’d see Big Dog and all the Hillary surrogates freak the fuck out and go into attack mode.
SatanicPanic
@Dolly Llama: wow, OK. I don’t see that happening.
Cacti
@Dolly Llama:
Yep.
If Biden threw his hat in the ring, candidate Clinton’s low profile approach would be over the same day.
smintheus
@SatanicPanic: When was the last time a sitting VP tried and failed to win the nomination of his party?
Cacti
@Davis X. Machina:
Bernie is like the Rolling Stones…
The 2015 version of them.
SatanicPanic
@smintheus: I have no idea. How often does a sitting VP run for president? How often do they win?
Dolly Llama
@SatanicPanic: Bush the Elder did it and won. Gore did it and won, too. Those are, I believe, the most recent examples.
JPL
@SatanicPanic: Gore won… Oh yeah, the Supreme Court overruled that.
Dolly beat me to it.
SatanicPanic
@Dolly Llama: OK. Has anyone ever seriously considered Dick Cheney? How about Dan Quayle?
Oh, it turns out Quayle did run in 2000. I had forgotten about that.
srv
Hillary has a War Room filled with binders on Biden.
SatanicPanic
Here’s a question for you guys- when was the last time someone 70 or older was elected president?
geg6
@the Conster:
That’s how I feel about Bernie. He’s moving the conversation left for whomever the Dem nominee ends up being. I’m voting for whoever that may end up being, uess a meteor hits and kills everyone but me and Jim Webb and I decline to run against him. And that’s very unlikely. That I’d decline to run against him, that is.
Keith G
The CNN ORC poll released yesterday shows** that Bernie has a very long way to go. I am sure that he will see at least a week or two of very good growth due to nearly unremittingly favorable (or at least not picky) flavor of the month press coverage.
What’s his ceiling?
He is a thoughtful man with many important ideas, but is seen as a serious leader by, what, 1 %?
Unfortunately for him, he cannot be compared to the 2007 version of Barak Obama as some might want to do. Maybe Bernie can double his current support in some states and I would like to have HRC feel the pressure of a strengthening opponent, but at the end of the day, I do not see enough numbers in enough states tilting for Sanders.
I imagine Bernmentum will come and go like and early summer fever.
**please read all the Base = Dems and Base = Registered voters cross tabs
Dolly Llama
@SatanicPanic: Mr. Potatoe Head Quayle was a laughingstock. And what’s your point about Dick Cheney? His health was so poor that even that evil motherfucker knew he couldn’t run. Had he been healthy? Are you saying he’d have done worse than Romney in the general?
maya
@SatanicPanic: Yeah, but Reagan never lost his boyish charm.
Germy Shoemangler
HR Progressive
It’s not going to “slip away” from Hillary. It’s going to be taken away, by Bernie Sanders and the support of the people.
Dolly Llama
@SatanicPanic: I believe that would be none other than Ronald Reagan, if memory serves.
Baud
@jl:
coughBalloonJuicecough
Lavocat
Well, let’s fucking HOPE it slips away from her.
I say YES IT CAN!
maya
@Socraticsilence: While both initially popular neither had/has the draw for the long run. That is all.
SatanicPanic
@Dolly Llama: So it’s not exactly a sure thing.
Romney vs Cheney? Oh yeah, Romney is terrible, but he’s still miles better than Cheney. But it would have been McCain vs. Cheney. I don’t know, it’s hard to argue a counterfactual, but I would’ve bet on McCain.
As far as the general- no real way for Cheney to do much worse. Maybe it would have flipped MI and put AZ into play.
Cacti
@HR Progressive:
Isn’t Bernie going to have venture out of wonder bread-ville to make that happen?
smintheus
@SatanicPanic: Going backwards, all sitting VPs who sought the nomination in modern times have won: Gore; Bush; Humphrey; Nixon.
SatanicPanic
@maya: It was a trick question. The answer is never happened. Reagan was 69.
Geeno
@WaterGirl: If it’s not both meat and cheese lasagna, is it really lasagna?
Seriously, the only debate I’ve ever heard is beef sausage, pork sausage or chopped poultry.
Cacti
@smintheus:
Ex-VP Mondale also won his primary.
SatanicPanic
@smintheus: Quayle didn’t have a chance to run as a sitting VP, if he had, would you put money on him winning?
ETA- but I brought up Cheney because there was an example of a patently unelectable guy, but we don’t know if he would have won the nom because he didn’t run.
JPL
This is OT.. but really why the discussion about Pea Guacamole???? I just did some research because I saw the recipe ages ago.
Diner’s Journal – The New York Times Blog on Dining Out
SEARCH
RESTAURANT TAKEAWAY
Green Pea Guacamole
By MELISSA CLARK JULY 2, 2013 11:00 AM
I’d always thought that when it comes to excellent guacamole, less is more, and that the best versions of the dip are always the most basic. Then I tried the green pea guacamole at ABC Cocina, and I changed my mind.
Adding fresh English peas to what is an otherwise fairly traditional guacamole is one of those radical moves that is also completely obvious after you taste it. The peas add intense sweetness and a chunky texture to the dip, making it more substantial on the chip. They also intensify the color of the green avocado — and help the guacamole stay that way. Pea guacamole keeps its bright hue in the fridge for a few days without turning brown around the edges. A good dose of lime juice helps this cause.
The only thing I can imagine is that the new online Cooking section is getting more popular that I thought.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
If his competition was Bob Dole, absolutely.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Oh, but we are completely anonymous here. :-)
Villago Delenda Est
Sanders draws a large crowd, and the MSM pointedly ignores it.
Typical. Now more than ever, my nym.
Wipe them out. All of them.
WaterGirl
@Geeno: Why, yes, yes it is! I prefer cheese lasagna to meat lasagna. I will take it as a given that you do not!
eew – chopped poultry in lasagna??? Ick. I am not a sausage girl, which is why I prefer cheese lasagna.
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: Bob Dole vs Quayle and you’d put money on Quayle? Quayle didn’t even come in second in 2000 against McCain and GWB.
smintheus
@Cacti: True, and so did Nixon in ’68, though I’m not talking about former-VPs running after leaving office; that’s a different political landscape than running as VP.
@SatanicPanic: Quayle would have been treated as less of a joke if he’d run for the nomination as a sitting VP.
JPL
@WaterGirl: Wild mushroom lasagna is really good.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Whew.
KithKanan
@JPL: Blame NYT’s twitter account for bringing that recipe back yesterday.
@WaterGirl: Personally I’m partial to a good spinach lasagna.
WaterGirl
@Baud: As we proved with General Stuck.
(may he rest in peace!)
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
But we’re talking about if he had the chance to run as a sitting VP. That means Bush 41 would have had a second term, and Quayle wouldn’t have spent the previous 8-years out of office.
It took Bob Dole until he was 73 to win the GOP nomination, and his competition in that cycle was Pat Buchanan and Steve Forbes.
WaterGirl
@KithKanan: Can’t we just blame the NYT’s twitter account for pretty much everything that’s wrong, everywhere?
pretty please?
JPL
@KithKanan: It’s the same picture as the 2013 article.
Geeno
@WaterGirl: Yes, chopped poultry in lasagna, in day-long cooked spaghetti sauce, too. It doesn’t replace the other meat, it adds to it. You must do skinny lasagna if you don’t have layers for cheese, meatballs/sausage, more cheese, some other meat (like poultry), and more cheese.
WaterGirl
@JPL: @KithKanan: Spinach lasagna is great, especially with a spicy sauce.
Mushroom lasagna? We can never prove that by me, as I am deathly allergic to mushrooms.
SatanicPanic
@smintheus: People were urging Bush to dump him before the 1992 election and majorities of the American public considered him unqualified to take over if Bush became incapacitated. I mean, he was considered a joke his entire term and quickly disappeared after 1992, despite being young (he’s only 68 now).
I mean, I agree that being VP is a great spot to run for the nom from, but it’s not so great that it can overcome obvious disqualifiers.
JPL
@WaterGirl: That would be good news of Obama.
KithKanan
@JPL: Yeah, I noticed the underlying article was from 2013 and had no earthly idea why they decided to tweet about it now.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
Quayle could have had a continued future in Indiana politics if he wanted it. Probably Arizona also through his wife. Hell, his dimwitted son Ben Quayle won a US Congress seat in the Phoenix area.
WaterGirl
@Geeno: Skinny lasagna is just sad. Meatballs in lasagna, never heard of that before, but that could be interesting! (not made of sausage, of course)
I use 3 cheeses – ricotta, mozzarella and parmesan. Do you add egg to your ricotta cheese for the lasagna? That helps it puff up and I think gives it a better texture.
But there’s really just one rule for lasagna – NO COTTAGE CHEESE! I would have bolded that, but I didn’t want anyone to think I was really UNLIMITED CORPORATE CASH – VICTORY!
Poopyman
OT, but I have to run …
Before the day closes, remember it’s the 152nd anniversary of Day Two at Gettysburg, where The Peach Orchard, The Wheatfield, Devil’s Den, and Little Round Top earned their place in history. Given the statistics in the Wikipedia entry on Gettysburg, a dead or wounded man could be found for every 12X12 foot area within the 20-acre Wheatfield. Most all of the casualties occured as the field changed hands 6 times (I think) between 5:30 and 7:30 PM.
Betty Cracker
@geg6: LMAO!
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: Maybe. But he was done as a national pol, 2000 confirmed that.
Davis X. Machina
@Cacti: President Dean’s endorsement, plus the netroots. The rest is just an exercise in technique…
Baud
@WaterGirl:
He left us too soon.
TOP123
@Poopyman: It’s my birthday tomorrow. This is always one of the things I think about around this time. And on the Fourth, Vicksburg.
Gvg
barring any surprises we will be voting for Hillary, however surprises do happen and she isn’t young either. suppose no one ran against her and built a national organization, however small? And then she died or blew it? We need to have a few backups, hopefully without many clowns. I consider Webb a clown. the other 3 have good points and weaknesses just like Hillary. I kind of think I prefer Hillary because I don’t want a woman to lose to a white guy when the GOP has been seriously hurting women with their laws. I want to make them pay at the polls for attacking my rights and it will be easier with a woman nominee especially if she fairly beats several good opponents in the primary.
Poopyman
@Poopyman: Also too, earlier that evening JEB!
BushStuart finally shows up.Geeno
@WaterGirl: You’re making me miss my mom now. She died several months ago, hadn’t made lasagna in several years before that, but she made complete meal lasagnas, meats (several), cheese (several), and veggies – spinach and broccoli mainly. Big fat things, a three inch square was a balanced meal. Man, those were great.
Betty Cracker
@Cacti: From what little I saw of the Quayle whelp, the old man is the brainiac of the pair.
Applejinx
I gave Bernie $100 and then just before one of the fundraising deadlines I couldnt give him another $100 so I gave him $50.
Hurtin’ but don’t feel I erred, in doing that.
The last time I felt like that about a ridiculous longshot candidate the guy won.
Twice.
You know what to do. Screw the Dems unless or until it is necessary to resort to them while Bernie goes back to the Senate. We don’t know what will happen, but he has appeal across party lines and he is RIGHT, full stop. Deserves the crowds, deserves to set the tone, and it is us (not the Village, not trolls or silly rightwingers thinking they have a better chance against him) who will determine who is called.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: dumbed down generations: The Romneys, the Quayles, (at least some of) the Bushes
Cacti
@Betty Cracker:
Your impression was accurate.
Ben Quayle was the beta version of Dan.
Davis X. Machina
@Applejinx: Evidence of his appeal across party lines nationally would be greatly appreciated.
(I was a donor to Bernie’s first two House campaigns… Northern New England is a small place. The DSA is an even smaller one.)
smintheus
@SatanicPanic: I’m not saying that being VP per se guarantees you get the nomination. But all 4 of those VPs had major negatives to overcome – including distancing themselves from scandals of their presidents’ administrations, and the fact that none of them were especially popular personally. All 4 should have been vulnerable in their primaries, yet they all got through.
I think Biden is more popular personally than any of those 4 were, and the Obama administration has been virtually scandal-free.
BR
I normally don’t find stories like this that interesting, but the NYT story about Clinton’s emails (not the wingnut aspects) was interesting:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/02/us/politics/emails-show-hillary-clinton-trying-to-find-her-place.html
What it told me, unfortunately, is that Clinton didn’t realize that her old political team, including Mark Penn, was odious and incompetent and needed to be ditched. She was clearly communicating (and valuing) Penn’s advice during her tenure at State, which is worrying, even if he isn’t going to officially be part of her campaign.
Geeno
@Applejinx: Hear, hear.
I was an Obot from the get-go even though I voted Hilary into the Senate, but what made my choice stick, oddly, was the support staff. O had surrounded himself with people who knew WTF they were doing; I read an interview with Mark Penn and said “no F’n way”.
Baud
Best Newsmax headline.
Trump is in a race to the bottom with the Confederate flag, and its neck and neck.
WereBear
@Baud: I don’t want Trump to dwindle into being poor and obscure until after the election. If he can continue to get people to the polls, it’s the most valuable service he’s ever done for humankind.
Baud
@WereBear:
He looks like he’ll be at the big boys table for the first debate.
Cacti
@Davis X. Machina:
And Bernie will also win because Obama won, and their candidacies are similar because of reasons.
Germy Shoemangler
But does Bernie have his own fragrance?
Rich Lowry describes Trump’s “Success” cologne as “a masculine combination of rich vetiver, tonka bean, birchwood and musk,” and “captures the spirit of the driven man.”
SatanicPanic
@smintheus: If he were younger I might agree, but Biden’s already 3 years older than Reagan was at the start of his term. I just don’t see it.
Germy Shoemangler
Here’s Jon Karl (the republican mole) trying to make Bernie look ridiculous:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz_rhDzinQw
Also, watching the clip I realize suddenly that Bernie Sanders and Larry David are vocal twins.
Davis X. Machina
@Geeno: I know how this movie comes out. I caucused for Dean. I went into the middle school gymnatorium and saw every Democratic elected official in town over in the Kerry corner.
Was picked as a Dean delegate to the state convention, and watched the same thing happen.
Kerry’s people knew what they were doing. Insurgent campaigns need more than luck, and a vibe.
FWIW, I caucused “Uncommitted” in ’08, and went to state convention as an Uncommitted alternate.
Dolly Llama
@SatanicPanic: And how old is Hillary?
SatanicPanic
@Dolly Llama: Younger than Reagan was
Cacti
@Davis X. Machina:
Here’s why Bernie’s going to have a tough sell with minority voters:
That’s some high quality white-splaining.
dogwood
My concern about Hillary as a candidate is her organizing apparatus. I have yet to hear from her re campaign donations. Since my inbox is inundated daily with Democratic organizations and elected officials asking for money, I know I’m on a shitload of mailing lists. But Hillary can’t find me? Seems weird to me.
PJ
@dogwood: Hillary’s already raised $45 million – she doesn’t need your (or my) chump change. The problem is that she doesn’t seem to realize that people who donate are more likely to vote for her.
Cervantes
@Cacti:
Do you have a specific objection to what he said there?
Or is it all a matter of gestalt?
Elizabelle
I don’t understand why any of the GOP Klown Kar can be considered an electable candidate, and Bernie Sanders is not.
We’re the US of A, not the US of Wall Street. The financialization of America is killing us.
FlipYrWhig
@Germy Shoemangler: Yes, I’ve been saying “prettay, prettay, prettay good” after every Bernie clip on MSNBC. My wife thought it was funny, briefly.
dogwood
@PJ:
Well Bernie hasn’t found me either, so he’s got a long way to go before he show the kind of organization required to actually get out the vote. I don’t have a problem with Hillary laying low right now in terms of having big campaign events. What happens this summer and through most of the fall will be long forgotten by the time the voting starts. But I do have a problem if she is not taking advantage of the time she has to set up first class field operations across the country. I would guess 45 million a month isn’t nearly enough to foot the bill for this type of organizing.
Dolly Llama
@SatanicPanic: I guess we’ll see how many people age bothers, then. Age before stupidity, as they say. Or something like that.
WaterGirl
@Geeno: You should make a lasagna this week in honor of your mom. She would surely approve!
(just make sure there’s not cottage cheese)
different-church-lady
@Davis X. Machina:
You just sent a chill down my spine.
A really bad chill.
Betty Cracker
@dogwood: She’s blowing up my mailbox asking for $$$!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: I’ve gotten a few on her behalf, Ready for Hillary, I think, maybe some others. but I don’t know if they’re from her campaign, her super-pac, a super-pac…. I’m a long way from making any donations
ETA: 45 million, she’s asking somebody
different-church-lady
I know this isn’t exactly a profound thought…
I’d be happy to vote for Bernie. I’d be happy to have him for president. I’d rather have him than Hillary, although I’m fine with Hillary.
What worries the everlovin’ hell out of me is that he completes the insurgency to the nomination, but can’t seal the deal in the general.
Now that’s he’s putting to rest the idea that he’s a fringe candidate he ought to be getting enough name recognition for the entire spectrum of voters to consider. I’m willing to wait a month or two to find out whether the increased name recognition moves his head-to-heads against hypothetical GOP nominees. If he gains momentum there, and only if he gains momentum there, then this is a very good thing indeed.
If not, it’s a unmitigated catastrophe. And I’m quite worried a lot of his “netroots” cheerleaders won’t see it.
Rex Tremendae
Biden’s unfavorable rating is slightly higher than his favorables, which isn’t a good place for a VP to start.
Ben
@Davis X. Machina:
So far there’s only one campaign reaching out to Dem politicos and insiders, and it ain’t Bernie’s.
Omnes Omnibus
One of Cole’s more subtle attempts to troll the commentariat.
Cacti
@Cervantes:
Yep.
His position that once African Americans figure out that he’s talking about the stuff that really matters, they’ll rally to his banner.
Reality: A $15 an hour minimum wage doesn’t keep Tamir Rice from getting shot in a park.
Brachiator
@eric:
Here’s the dilemma. I don’t know why the left makes things so hard. There is this quixotic belief in top down progressivism, where people power will elect Saint Bernie the Pure. But as far as I can see, Sanders has no coattails. There is no Progressive Party, there are no other elected Progressive politicians either in the Congress or running for Congress.
Everything that the Tea Party did to seize control of the Republican Party is ignored or dismissed by Sanders supporters. You’re not fighting for local electoral control; you’re not even in the game.
I’m not saying that Sanders should not run, or has no chance, but depending on a purist outsider who will magically inspire all liberals to follow him is anti-politics.
different-church-lady
@Brachiator: A lot of the problem lies in their honest-to-god belief that the entire country is just as liberal as they are, and it’s only the unwillingness of the evil, triangulating, “centrist” party establishment to step aside that keeps us from utopia.
In that world you don’t need to build a party, you just need to defeat the ogres nearest to you and the rest takes care of itself.
Like TBOGG said, “[We] don’t live in that world. Grow up.”
I’d love to have a Sanders presidency. But without a progressive congress a Sanders presidency is worth next to nothing. Never mind all the lower tiers.
Mike J
@Ben:
There are 99 counties in Iowa, and campaigns that know what they are doing are already well on their way to having a campaign chair in every one of them. Dean got destroyed in Iowa because he had a lot of giant rallies and random groups of people who would canvass neighborhoods next to universities, and nobody to coral actual voters in the caucuses.
different-church-lady
@different-church-lady: ETA: not so much “worth next to nothing” — more like not at all as progressive as we want it to be. A president Bernie against a GOP congress means he winds up making all the same compromises as a president Hillary.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
That’s what drove me crazy about the Draft Warren movement, it’s the left’s version of the Cult of the Presidency, one of its many faces, anyway. Sanders and Warren do indeed generate a lot of excitement. And Republicans still control the House and the Senate. Compare that with the ‘winger (Norquist, Viguerie?) who said of Willard’s impurities and shape-shifting, we only need his pen.
dogwood
Bernie appeals to angry liberals and democra, tsand perhaps some angry independents. A much older and more authentic version of John Edwards who drew the angry crowd in’08. He would be a terrible general election candidate.
Another Holocene Human
@dogwood: No fair to angry people. John Edwards brought in the suckers, did he ever. People who thought something in the world wasn’t quite right and couldn’t figure out why. He spoke to them. People who were left leaning but didn’t have a clue about policy. Obama, on the other hand, galvanized the angry in 2008. He not only talked about policy, he had a website that went into detail. Totally different crowd.
Sanders appeals to Obama 2008 fans. Not a damn thing Sanders goes up there and says is not true. He doesn’t talk platitudes and his suit isn’t tailored. He just tells the truth and people are eating that up.
dogwood
@Another Holocene Human:
Have to disagree. There is nothing aspirational about Bernie’s campaign, After 8 years of a democratic presidency, having the dem. nominee campaign on how awful the country is, probably won’t be motivating to rank and file dems. But republicans would love it.
SiubhanDuinne
@WereBear:
No such thing.
magurakurin
my take on Bernie Sanders
– I like the guy. He’s great even if he is to the right of me politically. But I still think Clinton will be a better president. It’s a dirty job and it isn’t just about the domestic economy. The US role in the world is huge. Clinton is better prepared for that.
-I think Clinton has the best chance to beat the GOP field. That being said the GOP field is so weak that Sanders just might win, but polling shows him as much weaker. I want the win more than anything else.
– If Sanders were to win,some of his supporters would find themselves just as disappointed as they were with Obama. Because he would be elected president and not king. The “Bernie sold us out” blog posts would probably only be about a year away from his election.
-Comparisons to Obama are silly. Yes, people didn’t think Obama was a big threat at first, this is true. But we didn’t know that Obama, Plouffie and Axlerod and sat down with a US Congressional District map and planned out exactly which districts they could win delegates in and which they could not, They then took this information and set up offices in each district and created a groundwork that provided delegates and later a base for the general election. Late in the primary when this spreadsheet was revealed it tracked almost to the delegate what actually happened. Does Sanders have a similar spreadsheet and ground network? Doubtful.
-Money. Bernie Sanders is making noises that he wants to unilaterally disarm in the money race. While admirably, it probably won’t be much solace that Bernie “did the right thing” if he gets steamrollered by a Jeb! or Walker money machine.
But I will vote proudly for whoever wins and send money if possible, and I won’t sleep well until the final vote is in. I think Clinton is the best shot…but Martha Coakly….too horrible to consider.
SiubhanDuinne
@Tommy:
With the very notable exception of Barack Obama. I supported him from the get-go (and obviously in the general). Other years, and down-ballot primaries, I have to agree with you.
SiubhanDuinne
@WaterGirl:
Delaware and Maryland? Needs moar geographical diversity.
magurakurin
@SiubhanDuinne: indeed. going back to the two white guy pattern just might not be the ticket. Clinton/Castro sounds more 21st century to me.
Matt McIrvin
@WaterGirl: O’Malley thought he was going to be the great left alternative to Hillary Clinton. HuffPo’s aggregate has him polling at about 1.4% and Sanders at 15-16%.
Matt McIrvin
@Cacti: Sanders is beating Biden in most polls. There was just one from CNN with Biden higher that looks like an outlier to me.
SiubhanDuinne
This is hypothetical, speculative, and highly unlikely, but bear with me please: Is there anything in the Constitution that would preclude Joe Biden from being elected/serving as VPOTUS for more than two terms? Could, say, Hillary win the Democratic nomination for President and ask Joe to be her running mate? Or do the Presidential term limits apply to VP as well as Prez?
SiubhanDuinne
@smintheus:
Quayle?
SiubhanDuinne
@SatanicPanic:
The answer is never.
Now I have a question for you: when was the last time a woman was elected president?
Every single person elected to the Presidency of the United States has been the first something. They are all record-breakers. They are all superlatives, by one metric or another.
cokane
go Sanders go. I personally think Sanders could win a general. I think his leftism is just as much of a liability as some things Clinton has. The R’s are so weak and so backed into a far right corner by their own rhetoric, this could be the best chance to have a truly lefty prez.
Sanders makes his points in pretty straightforward ways too so that it doesn’t sound quite so leftist.
SiubhanDuinne
@magurakurin:
Clinton/Castro is a ticket I’ve been imagining (and, I think, predicting) for more than a year. I prefer Bernie to Hillary right now, in primary season, but realistically I can certainly see the appeal of the first female presidential candidate and the first Latino/Hispanic VP candidate. (And going way beyond gender and ethnic tokenism, I think they would both do a terrific job. I’d have no problems at all voting for that combo, assuming no nasty surprises along the way.)
dogwood
@magurakurin:
Good post. Presidents serve as Head of State, Head of Government, Commander in Chief, and Head of his party. Bernie is running to be head of government, and with a republican Congress he will accomplish little. He doesn’t seem to have the qualities to be the Chief Diplomat, or an effective CiC. And since he’s not a Democrat, he won’t be the head of the party. I like Bernie too, but he has never shown much interest in anything other than economic issues. Presidents can’t afford to be so myopic. Can any of his supports seriously imagine him as effective in speaking to the nation after traumatic events like Tuscon, or Charleston? Hell, he was out in SC campaigning the day after the massacre as if nothing of consequence had happened. He would not be a good President.
samiam
BAHAHAH…Cole drinks the Berniementum orange satan koolaid. How shocking.
He’s still keeping quiet with his Christie man crush though. Sure he had a wank when he heard the fat bastard was announcing.
Matt McIrvin
@SiubhanDuinne: No, there aren’t any constitutional limits on that. The rule is that nobody ineligible to be President can be Vice-President, so Bill Clinton or Barack Obama probably couldn’t be VP*. But Biden could keep being VP if he were reelected.
* There’s actually some controversy about that, because the term limit is on being elected President, not on being President, and the VP restriction is about eligibility to be President. But at the very least, they could never be reelected President after taking office again.
jl
@Cacti: @Cacti:
I guess I have not kept on the polls. I remember Biden not doing very well.
Fine with me if he gets in. Take some attention away from Webb.
An HRC, Sanders, O’Malley, Biden debate would be interesting.
different-church-lady
@samiam:
This was not a Berniementum thread — this was yet another in an endless series of “Hillary’s gonna blow it” threads. There’s a difference.
hitchhiker
Bernie is awesome at delivering the full-throated liberal agenda — no quibbing, no mealy-mouthing around, no apologies. It’s good to hear him in exactly the same way it was good to hear Dean sticking it to W back in the day.
Finally somebody is seeing what I see! I’m not alone!
But . . . if you’re thinking that Bernie has a shot against Hillary, you need to watch what the establishment Dems do in the next several months. Obama had prominent Dems standing up in front of cameras saying they supported him, and that — not just the rallies, not just the speeches — was a necessary part of his story.
Ted Kennedy made a huge splash in Jan 2008 when he picked Obama. Who is going to do that for Bernie?
dogwood
@hitchhiker:
Why would they? Bernie’s not a Democrat.
magurakurin
@dogwood:
And that’s a sticky widget, too. Despite the gloss over by his supporters, this is not really just a minor point, is it? Hard to be the leader of the party that isn’t good enough for you to join. And that refers to your other point that the POTUS has many positions, leader of the party generally being one of them. It’s something that needs to be addressed.
smintheus
@SiubhanDuinne: Quayle didn’t run for the nomination as a sitting VP.
ruemara
Can he take a break from saying things that piss off POC voters? Because right now, he’s gone from my top pick if longshot, to I think I’ll sit this out.
ruemara
@WaterGirl: You’re feisty today. I like.
Gavin
Bernie needs to change his assertion that “Free College” does anything.
Europe has it – and their colleges SUCK. Why? They’re free, yes – but you get what you pay for. Schools are chronically underfunded – so for example, engineering and math classes have no problem sets because of no money to pay graders. So, without the problem set for those majors, there is no learning and no ability to innovate. The US system has flaws and is in an unsustainable bubble today.. but it’s the best out there. Bernie should identify the problem he wants to address and target his solution to address that problem.. “Free” college is too broad of a solution.
sparrow
@Keith G: I maybe wrong, of course, but I totally disagree that this will “come and go”… once people hear him speak, see the issues he is campaigning on, they like what they hear. I don’t think Hillary will find any shiny objects to make people drop that ball and forget about it.
sparrow
@Davis X. Machina: Anecdotes, not data, but I “like” a lot of Bernie’s facebook posts. Underneath are always dozens to hundreds of comments form people explaining why they want him as president. And invariably there are one or two ex-republicans who hate hillary but like Bernie.
sparrow
@Gavin: As an academic that travels extensively in Europe, this statement is complete horshit. The best Universities in Europe are as good or better than those in the US. They have a different mode of operation in many cases (grades mainly determined by final exams), but your statement that they “don’t have problem sets” and that the quality of the education is terrible is monumentally stupid and wrong. If you were right, my University wouldn’t be taking as many top graduates from Europe into our grad programs as possible (where they always kick the ass of their babied American counterparts). Not to mention, the elites of Europe would certainly spend the money to send their kids to American Universities — actually the people that do that these days are the Chinese (where their national universities really do mostly still suck).
samiam
@different-church-lady: Jesus titty fucking christ on a stick. You should hear yourself. This is like “single payer or I’m not voting” all over again. Once again progressives make me embarassed to ever call myself that…so I don’t. Worse than right wingnuts in some ways.
News flash. Yea bernie checks all the boxes and says everything progressives want to hear. Also guess what. He has absolutely 0 chance of getting any nomination. 0.0
So pat yourselves on the back about how great his is if you want. As a voting block progressives aren’t nearly as important as they like to think they are. Notice I say they because it’s unrealistic bs like this which makes me never to what to have anything to do with them.
mclaren
@Rex Tremendae:
At this point, a dead gopher on the interstate would lead Republicans by 10-15 points. Have you seen those loons?
@hitchhiker:
Oh…I see. Bernie Sanders isn’t a serious candidate because the smokefilled backroom boys who run the political machines aren’t down with him. Well, hey! Glad we cleared up that issue! It’s not like, you know, the voters actually matter in the Democratic party…it’s not like the average Democrat really has a choice, right? Because it’s all rigged, and if a candidate isn’t one of the inside boys, wellllllllllll…tough tit!
Yeah, love that vision of democracy there, buckaroo. Sounds a little more like North Korea than America, though, so you might want to check your geography…
mclaren
@samiam:
People were saying exactly this about “the first black president” back in 2007 when some unknown twerp named Barack Obama started running for president.
Do us a favor, ‘kay? Take your learned helplessness back to the Pavlovian laboratory where you got indoctrinated with it, and leave the real world to people who realize that if enough fucking people vote for someone in the primaries, that person gets nominated.
mclaren
@SatanicPanic:
Dan Quayle didn’t run as a sitting VP because he thought it was impossible to run while sitting down.
Kerry Reid
I like some of what Bernie says. But like Kucinich, his actual record in Congress seems pretty slight.
Kerry Reid
I like some of what Bernie says. But like Kucinich, his actual record of legislative achievement in Congress seems pretty slight.
Three bills that he’s sponsored have become law, and two of those renamed post offices. The rest seem to have died in commitee
So where’s his power base in Congress? What can he do, given that the House is likely to remain in GOP hands for at least a couple more cycles.?
different-church-lady
@samiam: So apparently my dig at Cole was too subtle for you?
Matt McIrvin
@different-church-lady:
I’ve been worrying about this, too, but it’s mostly because I’m an incorrigible pessimist, and can’t help but try to think of some way that the Democrats can screw even this one up. Sanders as George McGovern reborn, getting nominated somehow and then crushed in a 49-state landslide by Jeb Bush or Scott Walker, is one possibility. Emotionally, it resonates with the memory of the rich history of Democratic Party losers of yesteryear.
Here’s the thing, though: Hillary Clinton is a stronger candidate by far than any of the Republicans, so it’s actually hard to come up with a scenario in which Bernie Sanders can somehow beat her, but not them. His weaknesses–the narrow focus on economics, the rumpled suit and mad-scientist bedhead–are things that ought to hurt him in a primary campaign too. His relatively white progressive base probably hurts him more in the Democratic primary than in the general, at this point in history.
If he can overcome all those things and actually win the Democratic nomination, which I doubt, then he probably deserves the benefit of the doubt for the general election.
The window for the disaster scenario is just really narrow. If he gets the nomination, it’ll be because some other disaster eliminated Hillary Clinton, or she revealed herself to be so unexpectedly weak a campaigner that she couldn’t have won the general election anyway. McGovern got nominated because Ed Muskie turned out to be bizarrely vulnerable to simple ratfucking techniques that surely would have doomed him in a run against Richard Nixon, the all-time ratfucking champeen.
So worrying too much about the strategic-voting bankshot consequences of liberals supporting Sanders is probably overthinking it.
Matt McIrvin
…I do agree, though, that the polling organizations should be taking him seriously enough to actually do head-to-head surveys with him against the various Republicans. He has much more support at this point than several Republican candidates who are still being taken seriously as possibilities; it’s only because the Democratic field, unlike the Republican, has one overwhelmingly strong candidate that he’s not taken as seriously.
Matt McIrvin
@Gavin: If that were true, you’d think the science and engineering establishments would be crap in Europe compared to the US. In fact they’re probably superior, and it’s not because of US-educated people.
Applejinx
The narrow focus on economics at this time in history is not wrong. “it’s the economy, stupid” continues to be a successful meme, I think.
EVERYBODY can see that Sanders’ points on the economy are topical and crucial. It’s not hard to rally the populace against plutocrats when the plutocrats are at the very maximum of their overreach! President Sanders is actually the easy way for these guys, otherwise we will have to have violent revolution on a global scale, very asymmetrical warfare which I feel terribly distorts the character of society. Not everything about western capitalism and western capitalists has to be savagely destroyed, but they’re pushing the limits so hard that we risk living through an unbelievable backlash.
Sanders is a counterweight, not the hammer of Thor. Should he get everything he wants, it would look like the hyper-wealthy would get abruptly dialed back. Suppose it’s so outrageous that they get cut back by an order of magnitude. That’d leave ‘insanely rich’ at around thirty times as rich as the normal person (which is how people tend to think things are). And that’s beyond any hope of socialism. Best case scenario you knock 20-40% off the piles of Croesus wealth. Do the math, you could give the damn WORLD a basic income off the back of that.
It is actually not hard to buy off the mob and forestall the guillotine. It gets to the point where wealthy people are fighting like rabid weasels to not let go the equivalent of a second cup of coffee in the morning to us. Each rich person is like a little soulless corporation scripted to maximize every form of capital, through accounting and law and patronage of politicians, and a little Jiminy cricket human soul in there who’s been clubbed in the head and isn’t seeing too clearly.
Without Bernie, they will just stumble robotically toward the precipice. At some point you have 99.9% of the human race figuring out economics is behind it all, and seeing the puppet strings. I don’t care how many cops are hired by the rich to defend their interests when the rich turn and smash cop unions and attack cop pay. I don’t care how many robotic security guards are invented by Boston Dynamics and armed with rocket launchers (blue sky thinking here, for when you can’t even trust mercenary humans!) when you can hack into software and crash it or turn it on its owners.
You CANNOT win a class war by just escalating forever. The protected class becomes too little and conditions become too horrible for the proles. It’s like trying to hold back the tide by kicking it and progressively buying bigger jackboots.
And all you have to do is rip off a chunk of wealthy flesh, not nearly a fatal wound, and get busy serving it up on a silver platter to the starving proles. It takes SO LITTLE to keep ’em happy and asleep. President Sanders would absolutely be able to do this and the times are right for a new New Deal. We could make a FDIC, a Social Security, a Securities and Exchange Commission.
Oh, wait, those are still around? Funny how that works.
Jimgod
It’s simple folks. Sanders has claimed the ground on which O’Malley the alley cat was gonna run on. Unless he can come up with a new angle or Sanders drops out, his campaign is DOA. The Baltimore stuff doesn’t help his case either.
Webb is stuck in a time warp and thinks it’s 1985 and will fail utterly. Chafee is a Red Tory in search of a political party…and will fail utterly. (Though we should use the metric system.)
Biden should never run again, between that horrible bankruptcy bill he got through Congress that hurts consumers, and that whole plagiarism scandal from his 88 run. He should angle for SOS/Foreign Minister and be done with it.
And I can’t wait for 9 more months of the anti-Bernie talking points that are now standard from a select core of commentators: 1) He’s not a registered Democrat (even though neither is Obama nor Webb) and 2) apparently, he’s a racist because he talks about $15/hour which means he totally doesn’t care about Tamir Rice or anyone else being shot and will do absolutely nothing to address this issue. LOGIC!!
Fun times ahead.
Elie
@Matt McIrvin:
Good analysis. Thanks. I share many of your views/concerns but I am “open to the universe”.
US elections are long and expensive, but we get a chance to see our candidates for a good long time in a variety of situations. That is a good thing (though I decry the expense of it). You have to run a horse through all the races to see if you have a triple crown winner. The best ones get stronger as they go — but you have to run them to see.
NCSteve
As goes Madison, so goes Ann Arbor!
Matt McIrvin
@Jimgod: I am skeptical of the claims that Joe Biden is going to run. He’s not behaving like somebody who’s going to run. Maybe he’s just really laid-back about it.
Cacti
@Jimgod:
Climb down from your cross there, Jesus. Nobody called him a racist. Just pointing out that he’s ignoring issues that are specific to people of color. Black Lives Matter has been around since 2013 and has been holding joint events with Fight For 15 movement for a while now. Candidate Sanders has been reaching out to one of those groups.
Even in his statements about the Baltimore riots, he turned it into a speech about economics as a bromide for everything. Economic prosperity has never been shared equally among whites and non-whites in this country.
I don’t think Bernie’s intentions are bad. I’m just finding him surprisingly tone deaf on social justice issues.
Matt McIrvin
@Elie: I do get freaked out by the Sanders liberals I see on Facebook who are working themselves into an increasing lather of wake-up-sheeple Clinton-hate; they remind me of 2000 Naderites. But I believe the number who will actually withhold their vote if she is nominated are small, and would probably do so with or without Bernie Sanders.