Via Deadspin, a 243(!) page report finds that the Patriots are cheating cheaters who cheat, including Tom Brady, probably! There were some amusing texts exchanged by the deflaters, which can be viewed at the link above. Oh NFL, I believed in your integrity! How can I ever trust you again?
Open thread.
JPL
It’s more probable than not, that Brady knew.
what the heck?
Richard Mayhew
Below civil law burden of proof (preponderance of evidence) so it is “meh, maybe, maybe not, slightly more likely to be maybe”
Cacti
Pats caught with their hand in the cookie jar again?
Shocked I tells you.
themann1086
Anyone else weirded out that the investigation and report on “Deflategate” (ugh) is more thorough and all-encompassing than what the NFL did with the Ray Rice situation? Or is that just me?
JPL
@Cacti: How many games should Brady sit out for more probable than not?
Betty Cracker
@JPL: The texts from the equipment guys sure make it sound like Brady not only knew but was directing the rate of inflation. And how stupid were those guys to text and call each other after the scandal broke? Aaron Hernandez wasn’t the only dumb mofo in that organization.
Joseph Nobles
Just saw that Hershel from The Walking Dead (Scott Wilson) is going to be in The Omen TV series. So yay!
Punchy
Of course, you can’t directly bash the DeFlatriots or Tom Shady, so you get this mealy-mouth horseshit. “Likely” that Patriots did this on purpose….”More likely than not” Shady was aware of it (how the fuck could he not be?). Just enough wiggle room for the guilty to deny it, for the Ginger Hammer to ignore it, and insufferable Bawhstawn fans to self-immolate themselves.
Cue the incessant whining and bitching by the ESPN crew and their Pats homers masquerading as talking heads.
MattF
Say it isn’t so, Tom… Or, optionally, hire a lawyer.
JPL
@Betty Cracker: Most of the quarterbacks in the league, are particular about the way their balls are handled. I think that is why they are using the term more probable than not.
KithKanan
@Richard Mayhew: Isn’t “more probable than not” just another way of saying “preponderance of evidence”? If not, what’s the difference?
Cacti
@JPL:
(Shrug)
But given that it’s in the skilled hands of Roger Goodell, what could go wrong?
Amir Khalid
@Richard Mayhew:
So, the conclusion is that something fishy probably did happen; but there’s no proof to justify punishment for anyone? Shrug. I guess everyone can go back to sleep.
Cacti
@JPL:
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
OzarkHillbilly
This whole Deflategate story just leaves me flat.
Paul in KY
Fucking, cheating POS Patriot cheaters!!! Dammit, Carroll!!! Why didn’t you run the Beast down there?!?!?!
Paul in KY
@themann1086: It certainly looks like it was more in-depth & thorough.
JMG
The report is even more humorous than I’d hoped. Did it take so long because Wells tried it out at small comedy clubs in impromptu appearances?
Steppan
@JPL:
I mean, I never play football, but even I’m pretty particular about how my balls are handled.
Cacti
@Paul in KY:
His brain was deflated.
marduk
@Betty Cracker: There’s nothing incriminating in any of the texts though. Why wouldn’t they text?
Bruce K
“More likely than not” is exactly what the “preponderance of evidence” standard is. From the executive summary of the report, it appears that the investigators were asked to judge by that standard, and from the phrasing in the executive summary, it appears they think that their conclusions cleared that hurdle with room to spare.
JPL
@Cacti: My guess is that Brady will face a large fine, though.
Brachiator
First, the Mayweather/Manny fight scandal. Now this. I feel so … deflated knowing that the Patriots cheated. They’ve never cheated before, right?
KithKanan
@Bruce K: Thanks, that’s what I thought/what I vaguely remembered from jury duty on a civil trial over a decade ago.
srv
You silly people are worried about some balls when Obama is trying to deflate the world economy:
Footballs, 401k, same thing!
kindness
Doesn’t matter. I was still happy to see the Patriots beat those smug bastard Seahawks. That was worth it.
Tree With Water
Brady remains the best all-round QB I’ve ever seen play- and my memory extends back to the days of Unitas and Starr. I’m also a lifelong Niners fan, and will stick with my pronouncement at the end of the Super Bowl a few months ago: “The King (that would be Montana) is dead; long live the King!
Paul in KY
@Cacti: I think it was hubris. He was sooooooooooo sure his mighty Seahawk offense was going to score (plus he was sooooooooooooo sure Belicheat was going to call a TO) that he got smug.
Aleta
I guess our town’s white hijinkers will be setting their traditional campfires tonight.
Betty Cracker
@marduk: I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree about how incriminating those texts look and how fishy it is that Brady called the deflaters and sent cajoling texts once the scandal broke. I don’t give a shit about the Patriots one way or another, but you have to be a pretty serious homer to come away from that report with a “nothing to see here, move along.”
trollhattan
@Paul in KY:
Sigh. Tell me about it.
gvg
Of course it was more in depth. Deflate gate was about their business. Ray Rice was not and people expecting it to be are showing both sloppy thinking and a sad lack of confidence in the institutions that are supposed to be for preventing and punishing assault and battery. In other words, the police, courts and jurors aren’t doing their jobs. I really can’t understand why so many jumped right to expecting the NFL to do what our justice system isn’t doing well. Its none of a private employers business to be handing out justice. Ray Rice should have been arrested, charged and tried and his girlfriend should have been protected so she could testify freely. He should have been charged IMO even without her testimony based on cameras and witnesses.
The NFL may have put pressure on the courts to reduce the charges. I can’t recall if I read that about this case or some other, however if so THAT was wrong, and a reason to critictisize his team.
They are not supposed to be investigating something like this and if they did it would likely interfere with a real investigation. Don’t let the real justice system off the hook for their responsibilities.
Paul in KY
@Tree With Water: There’s no way he could run/scramble like Joe Montana did. Also Steve Young. Brady may be as good or better thrower than them, but no way does he compare on the advancing the ball via the feet metric.
Brachiator
Interesting international news. I found this, but can anyone tell us more about the elections in Alberta, Canada? Any lessons for how Democrats and progressives can win here? I liked this tidbit…
More of the story can be found here.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/how-to-shake-a-dynasty-in-10-easy-steps-alberta-election-jim-prentice-tories
Paul in KY
@gvg: When your ‘investigation’ doesn’t even get the film of the incident (which was available), one could say that the process was slipshod.
Criminal guilt, of course, is to be determined by the courts.
JPL
@Betty Cracker: I still think that the league fines Brady. If they were to suspend him, they need one of the guys with the needle to testify against him.
Next season should be fun to watch though, since the NFL and officials will monitor the footballs carefully.
marduk
@Betty Cracker: I don’t know about “nothing to see here” in the whole report but there’s nothing in the texts that looks bad.
trollhattan
So Bob Kraft is “disappointed.” More, or less disappointed than when he lost his ring to Vlad?
Culture of Truth
‘More probable than not’ sounds more like plain English than ‘preponderance of the evidence.’ In any case, readers can see the texts and other support for their conclusions in the report.’ It doesn’t look terribly good.
Paul in KY
@Brachiator: Thank you for the link. Interesting article.
Rommie
I think Brady either gets a minor fine or 4 games, depending on whether this is what finally provokes I Am The Law Goodell to come out of hiding.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Tree With Water: Yeah, sorry, but no. Montana set a standard that I’ve never seen anyone get remotely close to.
What Brady DOES have is a far better team. He has lots of options every time he steps up, and his OL keeps him out of trouble, something the Niners have never been good at (I wonder if Steve Young can even remember his own name?)
zzyzx
@Paul in KY: Actually it wasn’t hubris. It was remembering the Falcons game from 2 years ago and not wanting to give the ball back with too much time left. At that point, the defense was banged up to the point where I think the Pats score if they get the ball back with a lot of time left. So the plan was to run the clock down and then go pass/run (time out)/one last play. I understand the idea, just the execution wasn’t there.
J.
@JPL: HAHAHAHA! Tom Brady pay a huge fine? I wish. But I’d be floored if the NFL fines Brady equal to or more than Woody Johnson for mouthing off about Revis. I will similarly be surprised if the NFL significantly penalizes the Pats — takes away first round and other draft picks + major monetary fine, or worse.
Speaking of Brady, who actually believed that he had no idea those footballs weren’t properly inflated? Drew Brees can tell the psi just from squeezing a football, as he proved a while back on Conan… http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25006284/watch-drew-brees-misses-saints-fan-hits-overhead-light-on-conan
zzyzx
Also be aware that Lynch – for some reason – isn’t all that in goal line situations. I don’t get it either, but the Seahawks moved away from using him there because he got stopped a lot.
raven
@kindness: The ball had nothing to do with that or the Indy game.
Betty Cracker
@marduk: I’m sure that opinion is widely shared in New England…and nowhere else.
marduk
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Montana is a distant second best. There’s not any real comparison.
Brady boasts the edge in career winning percentage, regular-season statistics, postseason statistics, division titles and Championship Game appearances. Whereas Montana had the benefit of a connection with Jerry Rice, the No. 1 player on NFL Network’s The Top 100: NFL’s Greatest Players, Brady has often pulled through with a cast of misfits unable to succeed outside of New England.
Also, Brady’s done it through the salary cap / free agency era where every team starts on equal competitive footing and his best receiving targets are constantly leaving for other teams, while Montana got to beat up on a bunch of scrub teams with half the available resources and keep his favorite targets throughout.
marduk
@Betty Cracker: I think it’s shared by anyone who actually reads the texts.
J.
@JPL: HAHAHAHA! Tom Brady pay a huge fine? I wish. But I’d be floored if the NFL fines Brady equal to or more than Woody Johnson for mouthing off about Revis. I will similarly be surprised if the NFL significantly penalizes the Pats — takes away first round and other draft picks + major monetary fine, or worse.
Speaking of Brady, who actually believed that he had no idea those footballs weren’t properly inflated? Drew Brees can tell the psi just from squeezing a football, as he proved a while back on Conan…http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25006284/watch-drew-brees-misses-saints-fan-hits-overhead-light-on-conan
Paul in KY
@zzyzx: He’s assuming that he scores in your scenario. You can never assume anything. Your best option on the 1 (IMO) is Beastmode (who’d just ripped off a great run). You HAVE to score 1st. By any means necessary.
Edit: Marshawn looked ready to blast into end zone, even though he had been stopped by some other teams recently.
J.
@Betty Cracker for the win! (I’m waiting for all my Patriots fans friends to vociferously defend Brady and the Pats on Facebook, which they will do — evidence be damned!)
Paul in KY
@marduk: Brady had several years where he knew exactly what the defense was going to be/do (from their cheating). That’s gotta help as much as having a receiver named Jerry Rice.
Another Holocene Human
It’s super hot and I’m super tired. Fuck Florida. Wish I were back up north.
PS: Go away Pats
marduk
@Paul in KY: So you don’t actually know what spygate was about then, do you?
Elie
..A bit off topic but another reason for me to dislike Brady is that he boycotted the Patriots visit to the WH in celebration of their super bowl victory because he does not like Obama. Petty. Asshole. It fits that he would somehow be involved with something so lame as deflating the footballs ..
Heliopause
I hope the investigation doesn’t end there, because alleged cheating of this kind in a single game doesn’t tell us very much. If deflated balls confer any kind of competitive advantage I would expect it to be detectable (from a statistical point of view) over a long haul, not a single game. The big questions to me are (1) what measurable advantage does this confer and (2) how long has it been going on. If there is a measurable advantage (I’m skeptical, but let’s find out), and if it’s been going on for a while, that opens up a much huger can of worms than this already is.
Another Holocene Human
@Betty Cracker: New England has plenty of Pats haters. I was one of them. I’ve turned into a Gator Hater just to continue the tradition.
I root for all soccer teams. Except from South America. Too many personal fouls. Matter of fact, Birmingham and Manchester can go fuck themselves as well. If it’s MLS I’ll root for any team that isn’t in Texas. I hate the Cowboys, too, and the Rangers. See–consistency.
Turgidson
@Punchy:
Bill Simmons is going to be insufferable on this topic for 10 years.
catclub
@Steppan: I noticed that.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
Since it’s an open thread, my mother doesn’t understand why I might want to listen to music on a three-hour car trip to Orlando. I would roll my eyes, but I’m afraid of getting a repetitive stress injury.
zzyzx
@Paul in KY: Yeah you can’t assume it but I can at least understand the concept that the best chance of winning in that scenario is to take 3 shots with little time remaining. And he had been stuffed on some 3rd and short plays earlier in the quarter, so it’s not as inevitable as it appeared.
…and yeah, I was screaming at the TV too when it happened. I’ve just calmed since. I do have a really funny item from that night. My wife delivers pizzas (we’re in Seattle) and one of her orders after the game had filled in for the special request section, “Run the fucking ball from the 1 yard line!”
Paul in KY
@marduk: It was about the Pats taping opposing coach’s defensive signals, which happens to be illegal.
They did it a Hell of a lot more than what they were disciplined for (IMO).
catclub
@Turgidson: So, no noticeable change.
Another Holocene Human
@Elie: What, was he sad he couldn’t visit I Drive A Truck Scottie in his Senate office?
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25165546/did-tom-brady-skip-visit-with-obama-because-hes-mad-at-the-white-house
CBS says he was angry because Josh Earnest made a Deflategate joke. That’s even pettier.
catclub
@Paul in KY:
Is that more or less important than ethics in gamer journalism?
marduk
@Elie: That’s not true.
Paul in KY
@zzyzx: Funny pizza story!
You do have to game for ‘what happens when we score’ (of course). You just can’t take it as a given. I’m sure Coach Carroll realizes that now.
scav
Anyone else think we’ve got a bog-standard climate denialist / knee-jeck police / Putin supporting / she-was-asking-for-it / choose-your-topic troll in training here? The dispute the evidence, deny it exists, pronounce upon what it means and claim no one else has read it is pretty SOP. As is the replying a lot all at once.
Mike J
I’m just here so I don’t get fined.
Jane2
@Brachiator: The Conservatives pissed the electorate off by a) blaming citizens for chronic government overspending (“look in the mirror” will be the quote remembered); b) making citizens shoulder 100 percent of the increased tax burden required because of tanking oil prices; and c) co-opting the opposition Wildrose Party (also conservative) in a sleazy join-the-Conservative “unite the right” move. Couple that with a flawless, populist NDP campaign. The Alberta NDP will be a centrist government.
Elie
@zzyzx:
some of what you say but another analysis that I read also pointed out that Kearse also did not run his route correctly which would have turned the guy who intercepted the pass away from the play. Instead, he ran straight upfield which allowed the guy to bail on his coverage and play the ball.
..and yes, the Seahawks are a bit arrogant and proud. So what? Only the Pats can be arrogant and proud? Eff that! At least the Seahawks didn’t take part in such bush league cheating like this. Its almost funny and makes them look 100% bush league.
Paul in KY
@catclub: Hmmm, hard question. I do care more about pro football game integrity than I do about gamer dweebs, but I do think that this gamer culture is toxic towards women & I hate that.
Elie
@marduk:
Which part is not true?
zzyzx
@Paul in KY: eh, I still think he maximized his chances of winning the game. At the snap, the Seahawks had like an 83% chance of winning. Well, sometimes when you roll a die, a 1 comes up. I think I’m OK with the idea of passing, just wish they had done a play action and given Wilson the chance to run it in. TBH, I’m more annoyed at Kearse not catching the ball in the 3rd quarter that would have extended the lead to at least 13 if not 17.
It stings a lot less than it would have without the year before. I can’t bitch too much about winning a SB and coming within a yard of repeating based on how my teams usually perform.
marduk
@Paul in KY: In fact it was about the pats taping the new york jets’ coaches signals (which is entirely legal) from an illegal position on the field in a single game in 2007.
“The 2007 New England Patriots videotaping controversy, widely dubbed “Spygate”,[1][2] refers to an incident during the National Football League’s (NFL) 2007 season when the New England Patriots were disciplined by the league for videotaping New York Jets’ defensive coaches’ signals during a September 9, 2007 game. Videotaping opposing coaches is not illegal in the NFL but there are designated areas allowed by the league to do such taping. The Patriots were videotaping the Jets’ coaches from their own sideline which is not allowed”
After footage from the actual tape was aired on Fox NFL Sunday on September 16, former Dallas Cowboys head coach Jimmy Johnson claimed, “This is exactly how I was told to do it 18 years ago by a Kansas City Chiefs scout. I tried it, but I didn’t think it helped us.” Johnson also said, “Bill Belichick was wrong because he videotaped signals after a memo was sent out to all of the teams saying not to do it. But what irritates me is hearing some reactions from players and coaches. These players don’t know what their coaches are doing. And some of the coaches have selective amnesia because I know for a fact there were various teams doing this. That’s why the memo was sent to everybody. That doesn’t make [Belichick] right, but a lot of teams are doing this.”[24]
Another Holocene Human
@Mnemosyne (tablet): guhhhhh….
okay, so my wife got her car in college to be able to drive to more gigs. As soon as she bought the car she bought an mp3 player (and yanked out the radio) so she could burn CDs of high energy music (she listens to classical and pop, so it was an eclectic mix) and listen to them while driving
in Florida
oh, and the radio here sucks. I’m sure it sucks everywhere actually, but … yeah. (In Orlando you can get Reggaeton and stuff like that but those stations die real fast outside the urbis).
Paul in KY
@zzyzx: Just shows you how fine the line is between winning & losing. Expect Seattle to be back very strong next year. A letdown like that usually motivates a great team to come roaring back with a vengeance.
zzyzx
@Elie: Fucking Kearse.
Seriously though, all of the injury good fortune from the year before reversed itself this year. That’s football though. So much of it is about who is healthy at the end. If Richardson doesn’t get injured in the Panthers game, I think the Packers game is different and if that game is different, you don’t have half the LoB out. It’s why it’s so hard to repeat…
marduk
@Elie: The part where Brady has ever expressed any opinion whatsoever about Obama or about politics. He begged off due to, in his own words, “a prior family commitment” and it was reported that he spent that evening at a school performance of one of his young daughters.
Elie
@zzyzx:
Agree… the injuries on defense were telling in that second half… they tried to cover it up but they just couldn’t cover…
What a game! My “other” team (the Chicago Bears) always take me to the wall and last year, they were especially horrid ( I can’t STAND Cutler and know they will never go anywhere with him as quarterback – no character)
Betty Cracker
@Another Holocene Human: It depends on where you are. Tampa has WMNF, an awesome community radio station. When I lived in Gainesville, I was young enough to like the top 40 and alt stations, but now that I’m an old fart, I’d probably hate those stations too.
Elie
@marduk:
Sure. Gotcha.
brantl
Football players are all people that beat other people up for big money, or get beaten up for big money, where would integrity have any meaningful role to play in that? I’m genuinely confused by anybody that looks up to a guy that plays football, professionally.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Another Holocene Human:
We’re over by Ft. Myers, so we’ve been listening to a lot of BOB FM (aka oldies for Gen X). But there’s a whole story about why I’m here hat I don’t feel like retyping right now.
Elie
@brantl:
I think I know what you are trying to say, but one can show integrity in any group activity. In a game like football, I would expect the quarterback to demonstrate “character” by taking charge in difficult situations, sticking by his players and being prepared for each game by knowing key defenses and the offensive game strategy. I would expect him to take responsibility for his mistakes and maybe even some of his team mates without whining and pointing fingers. I would also expect him to be a student of the game, paying attention to ways to improve his own performance.
One can also demonstrate character in any game. You don’t cheat or purposely undermine the game in some way..
Sorry, to me character is just part of what we all do in everyday life
Betty Cracker
@Elie: I think Brady’s daughter is all of two or three years old, so it’s perfectly plausible that she was in a school production of Swan Lake! But seriously, the story I read was that Brady was ticked off at the WH press secretary, not Obama. Apparently the press secretary made fun of Brady’s performance at a DeflateGate press conference and joked that while he (the WH flak) had always been sure he couldn’t do Brady’s job, now he knew Brady couldn’t do his either.
Bill
@marduk:
How is this not incriminating:
“McNally: Tom sucks…im going make that next ball a [expletive] balloon
Jastremski: Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done…
Jastremski: I told him it was. He was right though…”
Sure looks like Brady knew about the deflation.
different-church-lady
@Cacti:
Well, it was probably a cookie jar, and it is more probable than not that there were cookies.
marduk
@Elie: Well if you’d prefer to craft your own reality via mind reading and imagineering that’s just fine.
Maybe Brady was peeved that the white house secretary was making deflategate jokes.
Maybe he was busy phone banking for Ted Cruz.
Maybe he’s one of the lizard people and he was afraid Obama would expose him.
Just match the theory to your prejudices.
marduk
@Bill: McNally’s the guy who preps the game balls.
Elie
@Betty Cracker:
Sorry, Betty — that is even LAMER, if possible. He should just stand by his decision to not go without any weaseling like blaming the press secretary. Yeah, that will show ’em… He.jes.didn’t wanna go. When Obama entertained the ’85 Bears who had never been to the White House because none of the Republican Presidents ever invited them, they had a right winger player no show (Dan Hampton), but he at least owned it by saying that he disliked Obama.
JPL
@marduk: Probably one of the statements is true.
Elie
@marduk:
Oh for Pete’s sake… really? His feelings were hurt by the Press Secretary? He couldn’t miss his daughter’s show? Only one on the team?
Please. Its not that big a deal but shows him to be who he is. Lame- assed cheater with bush league excuses.
Eric U.
I love this scandal so much. I’m curious how they are going to handle inflation issues for future games. However, not actually curious enough to go looking
Brachiator
@Jane2:
Thanks very much for the summary. I don’t know much (anything) about Canadian politics, but the news story about the surprise victory over the conservatives caught my eye.
p.a.
Scott Zolak: If you’re not cheating you’re not trying.
No suspensions; Krafty Bob was Goddamn’s biggest supporter post- Raygate.
Brady>Montana? No way (and I’ve been a Pats fan since they drafted Plunkett). Joe: 4 SuperBowls, no int’s. Tom terrific nearly cost the Panthers SB with an end zone int. Led the (at the time) #1 offense of all time to 14 points total in Giants SB1. Safety and stupid int in Giants SB2 (17 points from #5 all time offense). If not for Butler’s int be could have been this years SB goat for his 2 ints.
The apparently forgotten Terry Bradshaw: 4-0 including 2 vs excellent Cowboy teams
I will give him max credit for doing more with less than any modern great QB. Except for Gronk, Corey Dillon, and Moss, he was working with mostly workmanlike offensive talent.
boatboy_srq
@gvg:
A) Privatisation of civic obligations: hitting Rice in the wallet does more damage than taking him to trial, plus it’s his employer administering the discipline since (obviously – /snark) the PD and the AG can’t.
B) Please tell me that, in this age of unprosecuted LEO beatdowns of POCs, you do not think that Rice would get anything like fair treatment here if he were NOT an NFL star – or, conversely, that the prosecution would be allowed a worthwhile crack at him with the protection of name recognition and an NFL contract.
scav
@Eric U.: In itself, I don’t find it in itself that interesting, beyond another stone in the big wall of Evidence be damned defenses, Regulations don’t matter for some, the actual moral behavior of supposed character-building moral-enhancing role-models (see also police) is a complete sham and Consequences are for the small-fry “ethos” that seems chronic. Bring on the Game! Bring on the Comforting Narrative! Security and Entertainment, cut from the same cloth. The observed tacit morals of the great silent moral majority of the nation is edifying.
raven
@brantl: What do you do that is so wonderful?
marduk
@p.a.: The idea that you’d penalize Brady for losing two superbowls that his peers didn’t even make it to is crazy. They’re better because they lost earlier in the playoffs?
Roger Moore
@JPL:
All of them, Katie.
Doug r
@Jane2: the beautiful thing is that all those floor crossers either lost their nominations or lost their elections outright, all 11 of them
Tree With Water
The onus for deflate-gate rests squarely on the shoulders of NFL headquarters and that day’s officiating crew. Deadspin.com reports the Colts specifically, in writing, reported their suspicions about the footballs and requested the Pats balls be monitored, but the Colts were ignored. If the Pats took advantage of their incompetence, more power to them.
A similar situation existed not long ago in MLB. For years the Rockies were doctoring balls via humidifiers, and nothing was done about. It wasn’t until Tim Lincecum was seen mouthing the words “what a joke”, having noticed a difference in the ball’s weight after an ump tossed him a new ball late in a tense game (in a tight divisional race). Even then, it took a while for the League and the Rockies to own up to the damned unsportsmanlike behavior. Curs all…
boatboy_srq
@Jane2:
And down here in the US we’re watching the Teahad get away with worse garbage, and their constituents seem perfectly happy to be played for idiots. I’m waiting for the game show version: “Are You Smarter Than A Canadian?” Except that it would require wingnuts to know things like, you know, science and history.
Bill
@marduk: Suggest you read the report. Start at page 75 for the texts and analysis thereof.
Hope the weather is nice in Boston today.
different-church-lady
@Bill:
It is. Quite gorgeous. Warm, and the sun is glinting off of polished silver…
Christopher Mathews
@Richard Mayhew: Um, no. More probable than not is the common definition of preponderance of evidence.
marduk
@Bill: I’ve read it. I don’t live in New England either.
randy khan
Personally, I’m still gobsmacked that the NFL lets each team bring its own footballs to the game. That just seems crazy.
BobS
@CONGRATULATIONS!: What Brady has had in the salary cap era is a constantly changing team. However, that you think Brady’s supporting cast is better than Montana’s makes me think you’ve forgotten that those 80’s 49er teams included NFL All-Decade Team members Jerry Rice, Ronnie Lott, & Roger Craig as well as All-Pros Dwight Clark, Dwight Hicks, Eric Wright, Keena Turner, Randy Cross, John Taylor, Michael Carter, and Keith Fahnhorst — they were loaded on both offense and defense.
p.a.
@marduk: my point was why I side with the Montana>Brady crew as GOAT. I’d take Brady over anyone else of his era, although now I would take Rodgers, maybe Roethlisberger, Luck, or Wilson, based on age.
geg6
Heh. Just as I knew all along. And all the butthurt of the most obnoxious fans in America is even more delicious. Cheaters gonna cheat and the Pats have been cheaters for years and years. And Tom Brady isn’t fit to lick Joe Montana’s cleats. Keep dreaming that Brady will ever be as good or as good a person. And I’m not even a fan of Joe Montana.
boatboy_srq
@Mnemosyne (tablet): @Another Holocene Human: I had a similar problem with my first car: explaining why a stereo was necessary (with university four hours away) took some doing. It was definitely worth it, though. If you really want an experience in driving to excruciating radio, though, try the CA Central Valley: one third “news”, one third gospel and one third country, and a big bad dark spot called the Grapevine. I actually invested in a 3-disc in-dash changer just to avoid having to listen.
@Betty Cracker: TPA radio has always been interesting: I remember Y95, 98 Rock and what’s now WHPT back when they actually played music, and one of the few things I do miss is WMNF. The metro Orlando market, though, has always been a cesspool of top 20 svckage, and the Ft Myers / Naples market is worse. Nowadays I’m in that depressing blank spot between metro DC and the hills. There’s a good station lineup (theoretically), though if you look there you need to translate for the DC market: News/Talk, for example, becomes “Lightly Sweetened Readings for Teahadists”: WCSP is unfiltered CNBC feeds. Notice the distinct lack of jazz outlets and the single classical station, and anything further than 20 miles doesn’t get there in this terrain. Baltimore’s lineup is more interesting. Every driving day I thank FSM for my iPod.
ribber
I still put this wholly on the two dumb mooks texting each other. Brady apparently whined to them about the balls being too pumped up for his taste. He gets to whine and complain to them, but I doubt he gave them any specific direction to break rules. Meanwhile, these guys wanting to be his buddy, wanting to keep getting autographed crap they can sell, take it upon themselves to do their ‘buddy’ some favors. Let me put it another way: Brady and Belichik know what they’re doing and seem like very focused, competent and methodical individuals. If they’re seeking to eek out a tiny advantage by breaking a pretty hard rule, would they really send Moe and Curly with their wisecracking phones to do it? Or is it more likely that Moe and Curly, acting off the known Brady preference for low ends of the inflation, wanted to make themselves valuable contributors (in their own minds) to the Pats?
Betty Cracker
@ribber: How does that square with Brady placing multiple calls to the equipment dudes, including a 7 AM-something call of 20-minutes-plus duration after the scandal broke? And if Brady were truly ignorant of the whole thing, why do the “mooks” seem to expect valuable merchandise to appear in their lockers from Brady?
redshirt
lol Pats Haters. Kiss the rings.
redshirt
@Betty Cracker: Yeah Tom was buying off their silence with fresh deliveries of UGG boots.
chrome agnomen
i have been an NFL fan for over 50 years, and i can say unequivocally that the patriots are the ONLY TEAM that has ever bent the rules IN ANY WAY in the history of the NFL.
Valdivia
the other Futbol had a superb afternoon with the Champions League game between Barca and Bayern Munich. I wasn’t even cheering for Barca but man, is Messi a superhero player. His shots to net are poetry.
/better than deflategate :)
terry chay
@Heliopause:
To answer your questions
1) It’s unknown in statistical terms, but under-inflated balls should affect completion rates(high), fumble rates (low), it will also reduce kick-punt distance.
Completion rates would be hard to see because an offensive system has the largest impact (e.g. west-coast style offenses have high completion rates because they use timed short pass patterns as a run). However, fumble rates are less controlled for (they’re not intentional, but byproducts). Coincidentally, the Patriots often have the lowest fumble ratios in the league, including last season where they didn’t just have the lowest, they had the lowest by a large, large margin.
(By the way, since NFL teams have multiple footballs, they can use a different ball during punt/kick attempts. There is a side rumor (not investigated), that Patriots’ balls were OVER-inflated in special teams plays—see above why this is desired.)
2) The report indicates it’s been going back quite a while. In fact, the “preponderance of evidence” is from that fact that the texts (etc.) imply that this was a routine practice at the Patriots organization (not inclusive of Bill Bellichick who was exonerated). My guess is it’s been going on for multiple seasons, but the report doesn’t say.
…
@Tree With Water: The problem with your statement is Brady was a team (now) convicted twice with cheating DURING the years they cheated. Montana and Young not once (their advantages were playing for a spend-happy team at a time before salary caps took effect and being on the first team to innovate an exploitation of the post-70’s Steelers NFL rule changes that encourage a pass-happy game).
Plus, he got a rule in his name that was designed to HELP him (unlike, say, Mel Blount)
I have no doubt that Brady is a great quarterback even without the cheating (somewhat questionable on the Brady Rule), but like Barry Bonds without the steroids, we’ll never know how great because the cheating part colors it.
Personally, if we are to talk about their individual play without support, I’d say during my lifetime it was either Dan Marino or John Elway. (I’m too young to have seen Jonny Unitas play.). I discount most of the newer quarterbacks because the NFL has morphed into a television-friendly, low-IQ, “big play” fest that doesn’t resemble football anymore, which is why I stopped watching. The fact that the Steelers organization keeping Rothlisburger, the game causes dementia, and news of players abusing their spouses and children (or murdering people), just makes it easier to hold true to my personal boycott. As anyone who grew up within 100 miles of Pittsburgh can attest to, it’s not an easy thing.
terry chay
@chrome agnomen: My favorite one. It’s clear that the organization has long had a “bend the rules” so long (even pre-Bellichick) that they’re the (only?) team that seems perennially to find themselves on the “break” side of things. Maybe it’s because they’re Bostonian, or maybe it’s because the NFL is too lenient on them (e.g. Brady Rule) that they’re like the spoiled children of the NFL.
Heck, when you think about it, their first Super Bowl win was only because of 9/11 (The Tuck Rule Game). While that doesn’t make them cheaters, it is ironic as f–k.
I’ll give the Patriots points for proving that God has a sense of humor.
Mary G
@Mnemosyne (tablet):Hang in there, Mnem. You’re taking the crap to keep it off your brother and earning big karma points in the bargain. Nobody can push a woman’s buttons as well as her mom, so I feel your pain. I once took the train from LA to Vegas with my mom and it was a miracle that I didn’t strangle her before we even got to Barstow.
Betty Cracker
@terry chay: OMG, the Snowplow Game! My parents ranted about that one for years.
ribber
@Betty Cracker: Because after it broke, those calls are “Did you do this? What the hell did you do?” And they are multiple because the news dribbled out. A call after it broke. Later, a call after the video of dumbass carrying the balls hit the news. And it’s not valuable merchandise to TB, it’s autographs on used equipment that is of little value to TB, but proportionally valuable to Jonny assistant equipment manager. I don’t quite understand what the ‘kicks’ are that they are requesting (considering they are asking for a size, are they new sneakers for mook2 to wear? Are they from the TB’s endorsement stash, or from the Pats regular equipment room?) Either way, the guy making millions doesn’t care about the sneakers, he’s just signing autographs and handing out the free swag he gets to the dude he whines to about the balls. Again, if TB was trying to direct these guys to purposely fix things illegally for him, would he really be offering such a cheap penny-ante pay-off? I’m picturing a scenario like Billy Crystal and Danny DeVito in Throw Momma from the Train.
Betty Cracker
@ribber: So after Brady, who is TOTES unaware of the deflated balls, calls the mooks find out what the hell happened, he texts cajoling messages to Mook1, e.g., “You doing okay Jonny boy?” etc.? Yeah, that’s completely plausible. But further evidence has emerged; Tom Brady’s dad has weighed in and says his son is innocent. That’s good enough for me. Case closed!
terry chay
@marduk: You actually edited parts of the Wikipedia article that are not so supportive of your interpretation. Wikipedia articles, BTW, must have a NPOV so by editing it’s not exactly impartial.
Taking the other parts you omitted
– The Patriots had the MAXIMUM allowable penalty imposed on them
– The Patriots are the ONLY team (other than the Dolphins) to lose a first round draft pick due to violations (the Dolphins loss was due to improperly hiring away Shula as head coach, which isn’t exactly cheating and certainly not “on the field” cheating.
– Goodell considered suspending Belichick but decided the draft pick was the HARSHER penalty
– It’s not where the videotaping was done, by 2006 (the year before the incident) the rules were clarified to the point that it was known that ALL videotaping was illegal. Where the videotaping was done was what touched off the complaint
– Most people don’t talk about spygate because the Patriots record post-spygate was better than their record pre-spygate, so they assume (improperly) that this implies the Patriots received no advantages. This is not proper null hypothesis. In fact, incidents like deflategate show why that’s wrong (it presupposes the only change pre and post SpyGate was access to tapes).
– Just because Jimmy Johnson could not get an advantage from videotaping coaches signals, doesn’t mean that Bill Belichick couldn’t. Different coaching philosophies have different strengths/weaknesses.
…
Johnson is more a coach in the style of Chuck Knoll (just field a superior team and the rest doesn’t matter), while Belichick analysis everything and tries to eek every advantage out of it. The fact that he thought he wasn’t breaking the rules because he thought he found a loophole between two clauses in it is the reason he was guilty in spygate; the fact that he continued to due this after an explicit memo clarifying the rules makes it egregious (and thus the maximum penalty was imposed).
In any case, while I won’t say that Belichick is a better coach than Johnson or Knoll (I think he is, but it’s debatable), he certainly is a more MODERN coach. In fact, post salary cap, I think you’d be insane to have a coach in the traditional vein (unless you want a lot of losing seasons) and Belichick and his system is a role model.
And if you don’t want the fact that coaches like Belichick are violating the spirit of the rules or at least bending (and sometimes breaking) them. Then simply institute a RICO act for the game. The owners, coaches and the GMs have a lot of control. If they are penalized for any untoward actions, then these rule breaks would evaporate.
lol
@catclub:
Gamergate is pretty much a perfect reflection of the rampant misogyny in the tech industry and really any-male dominated culture (nerd, atheist, etc) really.
muddy
@Mnemosyne (tablet): @Mary G: When I was caring for my very elderly mother she always insisted on preceding me down a flight of stairs that had a cinderblock wall at the landing at the very bottom. I said I could better catch her if she fell if I were in front. But she said she didn’t want to have to look at me. I can’t tell you how many times she would start in about Richard Widmark at the top of the stairs. That old movie, I don’t remember the name, but he shoves an old lady down the stairs while laughing maniacally. Cannot tell you how many dozens of times she talked about it on those stairs.
I mean, it was like she *wanted* me to push her.
terry chay
@Betty Cracker: :-) Yes, they’re definitely Dolphins fans, and picked a great time to be them. Shula was a monster and he’d be my nomination for best head coach of an NFL team (too young to have seen Lombardi or Brown).
@ribber: There’s more than that, for example there’s also his complaint of the ball inflation during the Jets game (and ensuing texts). The only thing exonerating Tom Brady from outright cheating is that the texts can be read in such a way to imply that he wanted them inflated as close as possible to the minimums, but not below the minimum. There is no way the texts (taken in their entirely, and not the ONE exchange you point to), imply that Tom Brady wasn’t aware that something funny wasn’t going on with the ball inflation. (Let’s stop for a moment and think how strange it is that a future hall of fame player could be implicated at all in an in-game cheating scandal no matter how incidental.) Well whatever, they’ll do some penalty that won’t make much a difference, because at this point the Patriots organization is a machine, with or without a few game suspension its golden boy.
Morzer
Well, Robert Kraft has released a statement Patsplaining that actually, it’s about ethics in deflater journalism. Aaron Hernandez has offered to appear as a character witness if required. And the rest of league waits with bated breath for Goodell to fine the Patsies a dozen Dunkin’ Donuts and a conditional 10th round pick in the 2050 Mongolian NFL draft.
In other words, mistakes were made and the grunts are going to be screwed over for them while the real beneficiaries get to skate amid much sanctimony. It’s morning in America again!
FlyingToaster
I’d like to know what responsibility the NFL official who is supposed to check the balls has. I *thought* they were supposed to have weighed the balls before they were bagged and taken onto the field.
sharl
I think a lot of this controversy wouldn’t have happened if they hadn’t banned Stickum back in ’81.
I have fond memories of Lester Hayes back in the day, and not just because he reminds me of the title character in Swamp Thing.
Ummm, Adrienne Barbeau…
…Wait, what were we talking about?
dirk
Deflated balls weren’t a problem when Dubya was in office!
brantl
@kindness: Yeah, the Pats aren’t smug,they are just cheats, so much better?
redshirt
@terry chay: So, death penalty then, or life in prison?
redshirt
We’re talking about balls from the report’s own measurement wetr around .5 psi under at halftime. Whoopdeedoo! But that’s what we’re all outraged about. It’s amazing.
Yatsuno
@Jane2: Isn’t Notley the first female Premier of Alberta as well?
Morzer
@redshirt:
It seems to matter a great deal to you.
The rest of us have apparently concluded that cheaters gonna cheat, shrugged and settled down to watch just how desperate the Patsies and their fans are in their unconvincing denials.
Would you like a little pop-corn?
ribber
@Betty Cracker: First, do I have to seriously respond to an adult writing “TOTES unaware”? :-) Brady’s call at 7AM was in response to mook1’s 7AM text asking him to call him, on the morning after, when Brady has a morning radio interview. So that’s just when this is starting, and the “You good Jonny Boy?” is a couple hours later, along with “You didn’t do anything wrong bud.” It’s still a joke at that point, the NFL hadn’t reported anything that makes it look serious, like what the readings actually were. (And then they follow up by reporting…the wrong figure).
But the point I’m trying to make is that while dumb mooks doing this looks pretty good, Brady being knowingly involved plays against his m.o. Brady doesn’t do big risk – he rarely throws long, he rarely plans bootlegs. He bangs out short quick throws down the seam from the pocket, or swings Amendola or Edelmen on the sideline. If he’s getting sacked, he takes it rather than doing wild shovels or circus moves like Roethlesburger. On short 3rds, he QB sneaks. His risk aversion makes for relatively unexciting offense. Purposely getting mook2 to deflate balls in a bathroom after inspection is a big risk for imperceptible gain. In the report, it seems all this starts when he’s annoyed that the balls were overinflated in the Jets game, and if you believe the mook text conversation, those balls were way overinflated by 2.5 lbs over the upper limit. If Brady is really methodically conspiring with the mook boys to deflate balls below standards, the conditions of the Jets game wouldn’t have occurred. He would have been familiar enough with the procedure and the standards to say to the officials, ‘hey, something is wrong with these.” After the Jets game with the overinflated balls, I can see TB ranting about not having that again, but insisting afterwards on an illegal underinflation is entirely different. There’s no upside to him doing this.
Then look at the mooks. They’ve been yelled at for overinflated balls in the Jets game. They know TB likes them low. Their idea of risk is that they get fired from a part-time job. Their reward is that they think, “I am doing something vitally important to help the team!”, a story they can dine out on for years. Look at the story about the 50k yard autographed ball. Mook wants a story to tell people. Mook wants to be important. Deflating the ball to “help Tom” would be something he can claim he did to help the Pats win the championship. The Mook boys have more motive to do this without TB than with him. And that’s my last word on this.
marduk
@terry chay: I didn’t edit anything. They weren’t punished for anything other than taping from the sideline of the jets game in an improper location. They didn’t break the rules in any other game, in any other season, according to the league. The rules were changed, as you admit, between the 2006 and 2007 seasons.
2liberal
ef goldman and I know that brady and the Patriots are INNOCENT! This is a right wing frame job.
2liberal
In the second half of the AFC Championship, (with properly inflated footballs) Brady completed 12-of-14 passes with two touchdowns against zero interceptions and the Patriots ran off 28 unanswered points en route to a 45-7 win over the Colts.
Deflategate Talking Points For Die-Hard Pats Fans
http://fw.to/aF82FiP
brantl
@Elie: You can buy that if you want, I don’t. I think that there is going to be inevitable moral drain, due to an organized, frequent activity, whose purpose is to significantly damage other people. It’s just human dynamics. Everybody is startled when one of these guys punches his wife. He’s just confusing on-the-field with off-the-field, and if his bell’s been rung enough, why wouldn’t he?
brantl
@raven: Earn a living, without beating the shit out of people. I do tech support; people say that I am pleasant, knowledgeable and resourceful. A regular guy, doing my best.
brantl
@redshirt: RIght after you kiss my ass.
Paul in KY
@geg6: Preach it, sister!
Paul in KY
@ribber: That could have been the way it went down. I don’t think so, I think these goobs don’t say ‘boo’ unless Tom tells them to. But, hypothetically, I guess it could have happened that way.
Paul in KY
@terry chay: Dan Marino was a hell of a QB, but he was never really a ‘winner’. Dan wanted to win by throwing the ball around. He wanted to only win via that method, so I put him in the same bucket that I put Dominique Wilkins in (for example).
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: I’m still fuming on that one. I was down in Miami when it happened. Grrrr!!!!!!
Paul in KY
@sharl: Fred Bilitnikoff used to put it all over his arms like spackle.
Betty Cracker
@ribber: I responded to an adult who calls regular working men “mooks” while polishing King Brady’s non-game balls, so it seemed like a fair trade. YMMV.
ribber
@Betty Cracker:
If the implication is that I am the one polishing, then yeah, my mileage will vary from yours a lot. No need to get crude toward people making a straightforward argument about motivations. “Regular working men.” You read their texts, which term fits? These are two morons who managed to inadvertently sabotage their beloved franchise because they wanted to be heroes in their minds.
Heliopause
@terry chay:
1. Those first two would be obvious places to look if the effect is detectable. FWIW (and it’s not worth much without further information and controlling for a great many variables) Brady’s completion percentage from 2007 to present, shortly after the rule change about the supplying of game balls, is higher than in the prior part of his career (as is true for the league in general). Also FWIW, the Patriots as a team had a big drop (so to speak) in their rate of fumbling during that same period. It also occurred to me to look at dropped passes, but at a cursory glance I didn’t see a noticeable pattern.
Again, these things might mean something but we can’t know for sure without some further info.
2. It would be nice to know precisely how long it’s been going on. If deflation makes a difference and if, hypothetically, the Patriots have been doing this since exactly the start of the 2007 season then that would be very interesting (from a football standpoint).