Reducing poverty is hard and nobody knows quite how to do it, they say, ht @interfluidity pic.twitter.com/WzvMOKWF8g
— Matt Bruenig (@MattBruenig) September 27, 2014
‘Tis a mystery!
What’s on the agenda for the day?
This post is in: C.R.E.A.M., Foreign Affairs, Open Threads
Reducing poverty is hard and nobody knows quite how to do it, they say, ht @interfluidity pic.twitter.com/WzvMOKWF8g
— Matt Bruenig (@MattBruenig) September 27, 2014
‘Tis a mystery!
What’s on the agenda for the day?
Comments are closed.
Howard Beale IV
Now take that graph and add in the unemployment rate/disability rate.
Things aren’t always what you think they are.
Fred Fnord
Magic of the free market, baby! Yeah!
JGabriel
Matt Breunig:
Looking at that chart, it’s almost like there’s some sort of inverse whatchamacallit between poverty rates and social spending. Do you think it means something?
Maybe there’s some kind of, I don’t know, relationship?
Davis X. Machina
Shouldn’t the y-axis label be “Freedom!”?
Baud
Norway is pretty efficient.
srv
If only those people would read more David Brooks.
He has a delightful opinion up now.
Roger Moore
Nobody knows how to do it in a way that’s approved by our Galtian Overlords, which is what really counts. If it can’t be solved without growing government, there is no solution that counts.
Roger Moore
@Baud:
Norway has a bunch of North Sea oil money. It’s similar to the way that North Dakota has very low unemployment right now; sitting on valuable minerals tends to help poverty and unemployment with any government that’s decently honest.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
@Baud:
Norway is VERY highly unionized. McDonalds workers make $16-$24/hour.
Baud
@Roger Moore:
That may explain Canada also.
catbirdman
@GHayduke (formerly lojasmo): That’s great, but without a very prosperous overall economy I don’t see how McDonald’s can workers make that much.
Baud
New Zealand, Spain, Portugal, and Italy seem to get as much bang for the buck as we do.
The Dangerman
Another tax cut for the Makers should do the trick!
/RNC
wmd
If the US increased social spending we’d likely have a heaping dose of humiliation for the recipients served up, as well as enriching some group that isn’t poor to deliver that humiliation. It’s just how we roll.
satby
@wmd: yeah, lots of low hanging fruit still. We don’t drug test first graders getting subsidized lunch yet, do we?
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
I’m not sure what this chart actually shows. The y-axis is the % of the population that is below 60% of the median income. So it’s a measure of income distribution within a society, although it’s an extremely crude one, but it takes no account of how wealthy the country is and thus the measure of poverty could vary widely between them.
Income distribution is a problem, but this particular chart smells of someone with a preconceived idea searching for that piece of data that best fits his already held notion.
NotMax
Diehard Libertarians would reframe the term.
Not poverty, rather call it wealth-in-waiting.
Voila! Poverty problem eradicated.
Robert Sneddon
@Roger Moore: Norway also has cheap energy in the form of abundant hydroelectricity (30 GW of generating capacity for a population of about 5 million people, the US has 96GW hydro for over 300 million people) which means they don’t need to burn the gas they extract from the North Sea as Britain does, they can sell it instead. Electricity is so cheap and abundant there most houses and business premises are heated by electricity rather than gas or oil.
MattF
Via jwz, the Internet of Things wants to be your BFF:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2014/09/the-internet-of-something/
Starfish
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): How are you defining poverty? I think relative poverty created by government policy is something that you can measure this way.
Villago Delenda Est
The way to reduce poverty is to exterminate the parasitical garbage in the 1%.
Start with the Rmoney clan. Then proceed with the Kochs, the Waltons, the DeVos, Pete Peterson, and continue on to hedge fund managers, banksters, Halliburton execs (past and present, most assuredly including the Dark Lord and his entire fucking family), and so forth.
Villago Delenda Est
@srv: The world will be a much better place the day after Brooks’ broken body is found in an alley somewhere.
JGabriel
There’s a cliched list of stupid oxymorons everyone knows: e.g., jumbo shrimp, military music, government intelligence, compassionate conservative, and so on.
I’d like to add to that list: mid-season finale.
Sly
@Baud: Norway has about twice the GDP per capita as the United States – the highest in the world – and is generally in the bottom five nations on the index of GINI coefficients (a measure of income distribution; the lower the better). It’s a wealthy country that has very little income inequality, features that will generally not be accounted for in governmental antipoverty spending. Typically that covers things like transfer payments, or direct redistribution of income by way of taxes to antipoverty programs.
In other words, the Norwegian government is really good at ensuring that they don’t have to spend a lot of money keeping people out of poverty.
PurpleGirl
@Roger Moore: Norway has a LOT of hydro-electric power from those fjords. Also (at least into the 1970s), people who held off doing laundry and using large amounts of power until the evening and over-night got that power free. Residences paid for power used during the prime work hours when industry/commercial users needed it. (My penpal’s father was the head operator of the power plant outside Lillehammer.)
Howard Beale IV
@Baud: Then again, compare Spain’s unemployment rate to our more accurate rate of unemployment (U6 rate), and your talking a > 10% difference with Spain’s unemployment rate almost or greater than 25%.
Lots of folks in poverty in the US have jobs-and that’s an issue that I have with that graph-unemployment should be factored in, but it isn’t.
RSA
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): A Google search turns up this source for the plot. The author writes,
Howard Beale IV
@Villago Delenda Est:
Good luck with that-the only way you’re going to fix that is with a 100% estate/inheritance tax for any earning above $1 million, so the spawn of the well-to-do have no choice and can’t claim to be on third base when their inheritance put them their. That would have put the screws to the Koch’s and the Forbes.
trollhattan
@NotMax:
Or, cutting taxes (the solution to every problem ever, plus problems we haven’t yet invented) exposes the Moochers and Takers, putting them in their rightful place and exposing them to well-deserved mockery.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
Okay, c’mon Gophers.
Edit: A completion! For one yard!
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
Air Kill!
El Caganer
@Howard Beale IV: Isn’t Spain one of the countries whose economy is getting turned into dust by austerity?
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
Ugh. Never, ever punt from the other team’s 36-yard line. Even if there were 18 yards to go and even if you do down it at the 6, it’s a bad play.
Edit: And on the rekick it turns into a touchback. Not a good play.
Frankensteinbeck
@Roger Moore:
The 1% have 1% of the vote. It’s not getting done because racists are convinced that social spending is why there are all these uppity black and brown people now. There’s also a thick, creamy topping of just plain assholes who oppose anything that helps people, but those two groups are so intermingled I don’t think they can be separated anymore.
@catbirdman:
Easily. They just don’t want to.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@efgoldman: Hey, there’s a whole bar full of us.
Josie
@efgoldman: It looks to be a good game. As a dedicated Longhorn, it is difficult to decide who to root for (or against).
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@efgoldman: I came up to Minnesota in 1986 after growing up in Ann Arbor. We’ve managed to win the Little Brown Jug exactly twice in the intervening seasons, including my freshman year. You see two crappy football teams; I see the best chance we’ve had to win the most important game of the year in a long time.
Belafon
While that’s a cool chart, it doesn’t really convey the right information. Poverty is not < 60% of the median income. Poverty is being able to pay for the basic goods and services necessary to live. If 3/4 of the country didn't make enough each day to pay for food, that chart would indicate that the country was doing pretty well by its poor citizens. I'm pretty sure North Korea and Cuba would look pretty good on that chart.
Mike in NC
During our recent Baltic Sea cruise we watched a slideshow with a lot of statistics about the various countries in the area. Norway was said to have the highest average per capita income, equivalent to around 94K USD. The lowest was Russia, at about 15K USD.
Mnemosyne
Looked at a couple of places this morning and I think we’re going to put an application in for one of them. It’s not perfect (no balcony) and it’s on the high side of our budget, but it has a couple of nice features, like a gas fireplace and our own washer and dryer.
Violet
@Mnemosyne: Totally recommend paying for movers. Once I did that, I’ll never go back. It’s fine to move a few valuables yourself but letting someone else handle the big stuff is worth every penny.
Gene108
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
A link from Pew on the War on Poverty 50 years later.
Even in American history, increase in social spending has reduced poverty rates.
khead
Texas A&M is putting 8+ in the box and STILL can’t stop the run.
Violet
@efgoldman: Yeah, letting them pack stuff for you is true luxury. Of course, if they do that then you’ll end up with EVERYTHING–including the trash in the trash can. You don’t get the chance to go through things in quite the same way as you do when you pack things yourself.
When my parents moved out of their home of many years they ran out of time packing things up. They had the movers pack the kitchen. It was pretty amazing to watch them do it. They were really fast. Everything arrived just fine.
raven
go dawgs
raven
@efgoldman: It was dicey until the very last second. We played like shit except for Gurley. Held them to 4th and 4 late in the game and had too many players on the field. Mason had 6 yards through the air and if they hadn’t fumbled in the endzone and given us a lated TD it would have been curtains. Hence the lower case go dawgs.
eta, yes I was there and it was a wonderful day. Mid 70’s, little breeze and all that stuff.
Steeplejack
@Mnemosyne:
Washer/dryer is huge. It wasn’t so bad to walk down the hall in my previous place (tower), but having a small over/under set in my current place is awesome.
Gas fireplace is nice too, although I can’t picture too many cold winter nights in Los Angeles.
fleeting expletive
I wish I hadn’t missed the thread about phones. I have an issue that I haven’t been able to fix. My phone is an old Motorola flip phone and its inbox is full. I can’t locate the original instruction book to figure out how to empty the inbox, nor can I figure it out from the icons on the phone. I’ve done it before but it’s eluding me now. Surely someone remembers how to do it. Halp!
PurpleGirl
When I moved from 3rd floor walk-up to the Co-Op, I hired movers. I had the time and money to keep the two apartments overlapping for a month. I packed most of the stuff and left the big furniture for the movers to pack. I moved the smaller boxes of valuables and left everything else for the movers. On the first day’s move, the kitchen stuff, some clothes and the furniture went. The boxes of books and everything else went on the second day move, A third day was the clean-up of whatever was left that hadn’t been handled before. In the Co-Op I’m on the 17th floor and the movers were glad to have to the elevator. But I knew I didn’t have the friends who could move furniture for me. I’m so glad I hired movers and that I was able to space the move over 3 days.
catbirdman
@efgoldman: I hate being exactly backwards! So are there examples of countries where the economy is relatively weak but fast food workers (not auto manufacturers) receive on the order of $16-24 per hour?
raven
@fleeting expletive: Here are google results
https://www.google.com/search?q=empty+inbox+motorola+flip+phone&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS567US567&oq=empty+inbox+motorola+flip+phone&aqs=chrome..69i57.13604j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Southern Beale
I thought this was interesting:
I’ll need to poke around and find the nationwide info. There’s a very real cost associated with gun loonery. If we were talking about food stamps, RWers would be crapping their pants.
Steeplejack
@fleeting expletive:
No doubt you can find the instruction manual for your phone on the Internet. Just Google it.
ETA: Also, people would be better able to help if you divulged the exact model of your phone.
raven
@efgoldman: I only saltwater fish now days. I did turn over a great deal on a pickup truck this week and made enough dough for 1 1/2 deep sea trips at Thanksgiving!
PurpleGirl
@fleeting expletive: On my Kyocera Oyster, I would go to the menu, go through the menu to Messages, click Okay, a list of messages comes and going to Options, I can erase one at a time without listening to the message. It might take a while but it works.
raven
@Steeplejack: I did my best.
raven
@efgoldman: And the dude’s an Aussie!
fleeting expletive
Thanks, raven. I had already read the long pdf on it, but still not finding what specifically I needed in instructions. Maybe I’m just dense today.
raven
CNN) — Former Ohio Rep. James Traficant Jr., who was critically injured Tuesday after a tractor accident on his farm in Greenford Ohio, has died. Traficant was 73.
raven
@fleeting expletive: Ah, well, Steeplejack proly had it right, more info please.
PurpleGirl
@Southern Beale: RWNJ will be crapping their pants anyway because moochers (the victims) are getting something they don’t deserve. “Free healthcare….” The victims should have to pay for their own medical care, doncha know. If they can’t afford the medical care, they shouldn’t get shot!
/only somewhat snarky
Southern Beale
If anyone’s interested in an awesome recipe for seafood biriyani, I made this last night and it was AWESOME. Also super-easy. Only change I made was to add a pinch of cayenne to add some heat. Husband loved it, went back for seconds, licked his plate clean.
It was also really easy!
And did I mention it was awesome?
Southern Beale
@PurpleGirl:
But … but … freedom! Founders! Second Amendment!
fleeting expletive
Thanks, all. It says on the back it’s a BQ50. And it doesn’t have an “options” option that the Kyocera has, I guess. I’ll just kludge along and see if I can figure it out.
Southern Beale
@efgoldman:
I thought the cost of true freedom was dead children.
Sigh.
I fucking hate the gun nuts.
Southern Beale
One of the cats is fast asleep next to me and is dreaming. I always wondered what they dream about. This guy is, like, 20 lbs of diabetic orange tabby, maybe 11 years old. I imagine he’s dreaming he’s about 10 pound lighter and 5 years younger and he’s chasing down a giant squirrel.
Southern Beale
In case folks missed it, Americans For Prosperity are up to some dirty tricks in North Carolina.
Voter suppression has to be the lamest right-wing tactic ever.
PurpleGirl
@Southern Beale: Yeah, I think the orange tabby could be dreaming that. I always wonder what kittens, who haven’t been around very long to learn about stuff, are dreaming. But it is cute to watch them twitch as they sleep.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
That should have been a safety.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
I’ve made the mistake of actually looking to responses and reactions to Holder’s resignation.
It has become yet another indication to me of just how deep and ugly the racism within this country truly is once the mask is off. Holy shit, it’s so much ‘HOLDER IS THE MOST CRIMINAL WHITEY HATING THUG LOVER SINCE OBAMA, HOW MUCH THE ANIMALS HAVE OPPRESSED US!!” Like 90% of everything I’ve seen is along the lines of calling him the most criminal piece of shit ever and how much he’s destroyed all that’s fucking good about America.
Between this, Ferguson, John Crawford, “Gamergate” etc., I’m almost fully convinced that this country, once you scratch underneath the skin, is just as bad if not worse than the civil rights days. They might not act on it, but the mask has slipped enough for everyone to feel free to let their freak flag fly and be celebrated for it. It’s like a man screaming, beating up a defenseless hobo, shouting “Stop oppressing me, stop oppressing me, get out of here, this is my country, stop oppressing me!” with an adoring crowd cheering him on, and the media exalting his brave ‘protest’.
And all this makes me wish I could just curl up in bed and shut the world out.
Violet
@fleeting expletive:
When you say “inbox” is that the voicemail inbox? Or something else? The voicemail box instructions may be related to whoever your carrier is (AT&T or Verizon or whoever). You can call them or go into a store front and ask for help that way.
PurpleGirl
Some of tonight’s TV watching:
Original Star Trek (on MeTVN @ 9PM): Charlie X
Outlander, episode 10 (I think) Both Sides Now (and last of the “season”) on Starz, multiple times tonight and over the next week. Starz is a premium channel.
PurpleGirl
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik:
And all this makes me wish I could just curl up in bed and shut the world out.
That’s when I go and watch various kitten cams for long periods of time. Kittenses really do cheer me up.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
Hokey smokes! The Gophers are starting to blow this open. By Minnesota football standards, at least. 20-7.
Mnemosyne
@Violet:
Oh, we decided at the very beginning of this process to hire movers. We’ll probably do some stuff ourselves, but there is NO WAY IN HELL that we could move our couch, bookcases, TV stand, etc. and still be married afterwards. There are stairs.
@Steeplejack:
It can get surprisingly chilly at night in the winter — down into the low 40s isn’t unusual. So there would be nights when sitting in front of the fireplace with be appreciated by both us and the housecats. And, yes, washer/dryer in the unit. HUGE plus. The house in Pasadena is still tempting because it’s a full-on house, but we would have to buy our own washer/dryer and hook them up.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Gene108: I actually don’t doubt that increased social spending is a good thing and reduces poverty. However, that particular graphic is not a good demonstration of it.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
Gophers have 8 yards of offense in the 3rd quarter and 10 points.
Violet
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik:
No walls available for you to repeatedly beat your head upon? I guess reading from the cesspool is the next best thing.
Mnemosyne
@Southern Beale:
Late Great Boris story:
We went on vacation for a week in Chicago and boarded Boris and Natasha at the vet. When we brought them home, Boris was still very grumpy about the whole thing, but finally lay down to take a nap. He woke up with a start and I swear his thought process was: Wait, I’m at home! I was never at the vet! It was all just a horrible, horrible dream!
And then he lay back down and fell asleep purring. I miss that cat.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
Good lord, the Michigan offense is bad. No one has made a Minnesota defense look this good in 25 years.
Violet
@Mnemosyne: The movers want you to do valuables and stuff yourself so they’re not responsible. And yeah, moving some mementos or highly breakable stuff yourself can make you feel more confident. But movers are fantastic and really not that expensive in the scheme of things.
The house sounds nice. It’s not that big a deal to get a washer and dryer if you look for sales or do scratch and dent and don’t insist on top of the line.
It sounds buying a place is not part of the equation right now? Pluses and minuses with home ownership too.
fleeting expletive
Has to be the messages inbox, I think. It’s with tracfone, and I’m not sure who is the actual carrier.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
27-7
I was hoping for a win but I didn’t expect this. And, unfortunately, it’s mostly about Michigan being bad because this is till the same team that got wiped out by TCU.
Violet
@fleeting expletive: By “messages inbox” do you mean the voicemail for the phone? Like when people call you and leave a voice message? Or something else?
According to google the model number you posted for the phone looks like it’s a battery model number, not a phone model number. You might want to image search “Motorola flip phones” or something similar and see if you can find it.
Linnaeus
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Absolutely terrible. I’ve been a U-M fan for nearly 40 years and haven’t seen a game this awful on the U-M end.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Linnaeus: Your defense hasn’t been that bad. Not great and the Gophers aren’t world beaters but they aren’t your problem. The offense is just indescribably bad.
Linnaeus
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Defense has been barely adequate and Minnesota has taken advantage. As a well-coached team should.
Howard Beale IV
@El Caganer: Yep.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
Maybe I should be glad that Hoke didn’t start Devin Gardner.
Linnaeus
And I’m now I’m furious at Hoke endangering Morris like that. Inexcusable.
Steeplejack
@fleeting expletive:
Someone above said something that raised the question of whether you are talking about voice messages or text messages. If the former, what I found on line seems to indicate that you have to listen to a message, after which you will be given the option to delete it (or possibly all messages).
As for text messages, I thought the default was that the phone starts dropping the oldest messages to make way for new ones.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Linnaeus: Was the hit that knocked Morris out of the game (or should have) actually dirty or just hard? I couldn’t really tell from the TVs I’m watching.
raven
Did I mention FUCK MICHIGAN!!!!! They can’t lose too by much or too often for my liking.
Linnaeus
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
It was a cheap shot.
Linnaeus
@efgoldman:
He shouldn’t be long for the job. Terrible player management.
Southern Beale
@Mnemosyne:
Awww great story!
I used to have a cat that would give me the feline version of the cold shoulder for exactly 24 hours every time I went on a trip. Like, “Ohhh look who decided to show up! Well, I’ll show YOU!” and then after a day he was all luvzy-wuvzy again because he was crazy about me.
I love cats.
p.a.
@Linnaeus: I have absolutely no connection to Michigan but I’ve always liked the Wolverines. Think it goes back to hating Woody Hayes. Sad to see the current suckitude.
Linnaeus
@p.a.:
Yeah, I’m disappointed too, but that’s life. Just gotta find their way.
And let’s not overlook that Minnesota has played a very good game.
raven
Bring back Moeller!
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
And there’s the Jug.
Linnaeus
@raven:
You know, that would be an improvement.
Linnaeus
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Congrats to your boys. Well done.
fleeting expletive
Thanks everyone for the advice. I’m going to hang it up on the computer for a while. I’ll drop back in later. Yeah, I was afraid that was the battery itself–the back cover which has the model number was lost long ago, and the phone is held together with black electrical tape. Has to be text messages, I think.
raven
Jesus, South Carolina is at home AGAIN!
raven
Holy Smokes A&M roars back.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
When I had to travel I used to board my cocker spaniel and he never seemed to mind being taken there. But he sure seemed glad to be back in his own place whenever I picked him up. But then I think as long as he first had food and second, a place to lay down he was good to go.
Corner Stone
@raven: You mean 4 out of the first 5 at home? Just like Georgia?
Georgia’s only away game so far was after a bye week.
raven
@Ruckus: We’re taking care of a neighbors dog for 4 days. She works and he stays at home all day and he is not very well trained. I’m taking him to all my regular rounds and he seems to really like it. Dude ain’t too smart but he’s fun.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Linnaeus: Thanks. Now to see if the Tigers can close out the AL Central.
Mnemosyne
@Southern Beale:
Boris was very bonded to me so he never punished me if I went away, but he seriously became Velcro Kitty as soon as I got back. He wasn’t a huge lap-sitter unless I’d been away for a few days and then I couldn’t sit down without him plopping into my lap to make sure I stayed put.
PIGL
@Howard Beale IV: Does not need to be 100% just enough to prevent development of dynastic plutocrats. Economic demographers could figure out what the appropriate percentage tax would be
Linnaeus
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Go Tigers!
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
@catbirdman:
Austrailia’s GDP per cap is roughly 60% of Norway’s, and they have a minimum wage around 15/hour.
Arclite
Doesn’t this need a Fuck the Poor tag?