(Warning, NSFW language)
Deadspin, via NYMag, with this afternoon’s FDNY-NYPD charity brawl game.
In other news, commentor Martin reminds us that Ezra Klein’s Vox has gone live, leading off with Klein’s longread on “How Politics Makes Us Stupid”:
There’s a simple theory underlying much of American politics. It sits hopefully at the base of almost every speech, every op-ed, every article, and every panel discussion. It courses through the Constitution and is a constant in President Obama’s most stirring addresses. It’s what we might call the More Information Hypothesis: the belief that many of our most bitter political battles are mere misunderstandings. The cause of these misunderstandings? Too little information — be it about climate change, or taxes, or Iraq, or the budget deficit. If only the citizenry were more informed, the thinking goes, then there wouldn’t be all this fighting.
It’s a seductive model. It suggests our fellow countrymen aren’t wrong so much as they’re misguided, or ignorant, or — most appealingly — misled by scoundrels from the other party. It holds that our debates are tractable and that the answers to our toughest problems aren’t very controversial at all…
But the More Information Hypothesis isn’t just wrong. It’s backwards. Cutting-edge research shows that the more information partisans get, the deeper their disagreements become…
Whatever your suspicions of GE bringing good things to our political life, this is actually a piece of serious investigation/reporting, even if the ending is grimmer than Klein may want to believe:
… At one point in our interview Kahan does stare over the abyss, if only for a moment. He recalls a dissent written by Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia in a case about overcrowding in California prisons. Scalia dismissed the evidentiary findings of a lower court as motivated by policy preferences. “I find it really demoralizing, but I think some people just view empirical evidence as a kind of device,” Kahan says.
But Scalia’s comments were perfectly predictable given everything Kahan had found. Scalia is a highly ideological, tremendously intelligent individual with a very strong attachment to conservative politics. He’s the kind of identity-protector who has publicly said he stopped subscribing to the Washington Post because he “just couldn’t handle it anymore,” and so he now cocoons himself in the more congenial pages of the Washington Times and the Wall Street Journal. Isn’t it the case, I asked Kahan, that everything he’s found would predict that Scalia would convince himself of whatever he needed to think to get to the answers he wanted?
The question seemed to rattle Kahan a bit. “The conditions that make a person subject to that way of looking at the evidence,” he said slowly, “are things that should be viewed as really terrifying, threatening influences in American life. That’s what threatens the possibility of having democratic politics enlightened by evidence.”…
On the bright side, it might be pointed out that Scalia is an elderly sociopath who’s always been on the wrong side of history. But then again, Chief Justice Roberts is a much younger (possible) sociopath looking forward to many, many years of destroying our republic in the name of ‘conservatism’.
Omnes Omnibus
I think that would be a valid description of Roberts. It may once have described Scalia; it no longer does.
burnspbesq
I’ve spent a good chunk of yesterday and today reading Michael Lewis’ new book, Flash Boys.
I think I’m going to buy a hard copy and send it to Andrew Ceresney with a brief note tucked in the front: “Dear Andrew, You need to fix this.”
? Martin
I think I’ve read everything over there (it’s not much so far) but it’s better than I was expecting. The ‘card’ concept is kinda hokey, but I think the straight-up question concept is an interesting one. Cards like this are helpful in the same way that Mayhew’s posts are.
The problem with this stuff is that they need a content flow adequate to bring viewers and drive ads. The folks that support Vox are pretty practiced at this, and seem to rely on a mix of current news and long-form work (to distinguish it from other news aggregator sites). We’ll see if young Ezra can maintain that kind of flow without selling out too badly. I don’t think there’s any question they’ll sell out somewhat though.
hitchhiker
How interesting to come home to this post right after watching the movie Anita: Speaking Truth to Power.
The saddest part of that show for me was the aging Anita Hill’s voice saying on background against montages of photographs of the hearing where she was vilified that she thought that all of the senators on that committee — in both parties — would of course want to know everything they could about someone they were considering for the court.
Her respect for the court was about a thousand times deeper than theirs, but she didn’t know that. Not at first, anyway.
Omnes Omnibus
@? Martin:
Now every cheap hood strikes a bargain with the world
And ends up making payments on a sofa or a girl
Love an’ hate tattooed across the knuckles of his hands
Hands that slap his kids around ’cause they don’t understand how
Mandalay
This evening Sullivan is doubling down, attacking the “hateful mob” for Eich’s departure from Mozilla…
burnspbesq
@Mandalay:
Exactly what is your issue with the language you quoted?
mclaren
@burnspbesq:
Silly burnspbesq. The rampant criminal fraud which has been made legal since the reign of error of Bonzo the Chimp’s co-star is not a bug in America’s financial system — it’s a feature.
How else could incompetent ignorami from wealthy families make so much money?
Omnes Omnibus
@burnspbesq: A civil rights movement need not have tolerance for active intolerance. If the people want to be decent and polite, they can have tolerance for people who are coming along slower than one would like. Why should a movement have any tolerance for someone who actively and unrepentantly acted against them?
Also, I am not aware of any actions on Sullivan’s part that justify his using the word “we” in that context.
ulee
I work with some intelligent and kind human beings, and honestly, they don’t have the slightest clue as to what is going on politically. They don’t like Obama, but they don’t know why, just that he is somehow fucking things up.
RareSanity
@ulee:
I think they know why…
They either don’t want to vocalize it, or the more charitable explanation, are in denial about their reason.
Hal
“news” max:
Has any candidate ever lost a primary, come back to win a primary and go on to lose the election, and then run again? Romney is clearly delusional. Hell, McCain isn’t this much of a sore loser, and he had far more reason to be pissed of in 2000 then Romney ever has.
Mandalay
@burnspbesq:
Well, “hateful mob” for a start.
Eich resigned under pressure from the board of Mozilla – the very folks who appointed him. Where is the “hateful mob” that Sullivan writes about?
Wally Ballou
Mickey Rooney has died.
http://variety.com/2014/film/news/mickey-rooney-golden-age-box-office-giant-dies-at-93-1201153308/
? Martin
@burnspbesq: I take issue to the ‘expunge and destroy’. I don’t see a big difference between opposing a politician that would set policy and opposing a CEO that would set policy. I don’t see a problem when a community that has an acknowledged discrimination problem puts extra distance from a person with a background that appears discriminatory.
Remember, this started with three members of the Mozilla board resigning at his appointment. This originated within the organization, and I think most of the pressure for him to resign came from within the organization. Also remember, that Mozilla is a non-profit and the members and employees have a much more prominent voice in how the organization is led.
Protecting the integrity of their organization is not ‘expunging and destroying’.
Omnes Omnibus
@RareSanity:
I agree completely.
Omnes Omnibus
Dear god. There is going to be another season of 24.
ulee
@RareSanity: Well, you’re right. I work with a person who opened up his paycheck and said, yea, just give all my money to the blacks. He looked at me like he’d been caught saying something he shoudn’t. He is a good person. But I thought, you’re leaking.
Keith G
@Omnes Omnibus: In the abstract, is it not also a civil right to be able to participate in mainstream political activity without fear of losing one’s employment?
Frankensteinbeck
@Mandalay:
Still reading this as ‘Come on, guys. His bigotry against gays was bad, but you’re making it sound like bigotry itself is bad!’
Omnes Omnibus
@Keith G: Would you patronize a known homophobe?
I don’t disparage Mr. Eich’s right to say and do what he wants. As the CEO of a company, he is that company’s face. If his face turns out to not be the face they want, I have no problem with it. He isn’t some code monkey. He isn’t the janitor. RHIP, but it also comes with costs.
RareSanity
@ulee:
Well that’s the thing…you never really know someone, unless you’ve lived with them for several years, and seen them in all aspects of their life.
Short of that, you are only seeing what they want you to see.
I prefer to take the position that someone, “seems on the up and up, until they give me reason to think otherwise”. However once they let something slip, I tend to not just right it off…and I definitely pay closer attention to everything they do when they’re around me.
I also tend not to put my own credibility on the line by saying someone else is a “good person”, unless I know for a fact they are. I tend to just say, “I have no problem with them”, or “they’ve always been nice to me.”
That way, if they ever do screw up, nobody can ever say that something happened because I “vouched” for a person.
ulee
The black community needs to pull it together. I’m 48 and I live in Maine but I grew up in Maryland. I went to school with young blacks and they called each other niggers and black dogs. I was shocked. I know that they were from the projects but they were fucking mean assholes. Time for them to stop with the bullshit.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: Dude, you may want to reread and rethink this. I will leave the specifics to others.
scav
@Keith G: Equally in the abstract, should a portion of the public be held morally accountable for the actions of a board of directors and a resignation?
ulee
But I know it’s cultural. I lived in middle suburbia and had a couple of black friends there who were fine and nice. They were raised as reasonable people. They didn’t punch me or attack and curse me. The whole thing is very upsetting.
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m sorry. I’m just relaying my experiences. I’m not happy about it. It’s not a racial thing, it’s a cultural thing. Would you put up with your child calling another a nigger? I wouldn’t.
? Martin
@ulee:
You realize we have a front pager that goes by the name ‘Betty Cracker’, right?
dww44
@RareSanity: Yup;they and we know. There was an lte in today’s paper. The writer is a well known businessman and community leader:
With no personal feelings about the merits of the Fortune magazine list (although I have my suspicions) nor the criteria for being selected , this is just so very much what the far right believes about the President. All just a bunch of hooey
I actually think Obama will come off quite well when the history of his time is written, if only for his ability to survive with equanimity and humor and sheer reasonableness (perceived as wimptitude by the right) the unrelenting smears and misrepresentations from that quarter. An Angry Black Man the President is not, although there are some who think he should be more of one.
ulee
@? Martin: Yea, so what, she’s a good writer.
mclaren
@Omnes Omnibus:
Of course there is. America is now the Panopticon Military-Police-Prison-Surveillance-Torture State, a vast armed garrison camp under effective martial law.
What other entertainment do the people running prisons prefer than torture-and-surveillance videos?
Welcome to Shithole America, the land of Forever War, where eternal war is the health of the state and where the search for new subversives and new terrorists (PETA, Operation Greenpeace, Occupy demonstrators, et al.) must expand limitlessly to keep that vast river of cash flowing into the panopticon military-police-prison-surveillance-torture industry that’s fast become America’s only real growth industry.
George Orwell aptly described 2014 America:
Source: 1984, George Orwell, 1948.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: We are about a year apart in age. I will put it this way. I won’t use the n-word. I leave the appropriateness of the word within the AA community to the AA community.
As far as people punching one another, am I justified in have a negative view of Italian-Americans because the kids who picked fights with not-very-big, youngest-in-his-class, violin playing me virtually every day for the first year and a half after my family moved to CT when I was in middle school? I would say no.
Again as far as the n-word goes, I was taught as a small child that the choosing rhyme was “Eenie meenie, minie moe. Catch a tiger by the toe.”
Keith G
@Omnes Omnibus:
I agree with that, hence my caveat. The top person is the public symbol of the company, but how far down do folks demand that amputation go?
As a gay kid and then a gay adult, I have worked for and worked with and patronized any number of people who had issues with others who were emotionally connected to the same sex. Some were beyond having issues and were genuinely “phobic”. I don’t think I came across one (in those settings) whose mind I wasn’t able to change over time.
I was taught that you don’t confront bad speech with censorship. Instead, you confront it with reason – reason applied with a gleeful stubbornness.
That was one of the first lessons I learned as president of the Ohio State Gay Alliance in 1978, and on the whole it has served me rather well.
RareSanity
@dww44:
The rationalizations for why he was left off the list will be even more pathetic than the actual gesture of leaving him off.
I can’t figure out if I would prefer that the media do some full court ridiculing of Fortune Magazine, or completely ignore it, as not to give them any additional attention for that stunt.
Keith G
@scav: That’s a different form of abstract.
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: I agree that it is a word that acknowledges the shared situation. And there are plenty of awful nasty white people here in Maine. But to not say that the black community has a problem is to not live in reality. I know they are targeted. I know that. But shit, come on.
Omnes Omnibus
@Keith G:
Let me rephrase: would you patronize a known homophobe if you had a choice? Two businesses, one gay friendly, one not. Which gets your custom?
Also, can you point out any censorship in Eich situation? There was speech and counter speech. The marketplace of ideas spoke. It chose someone other than Eich.
? Martin
@ulee: The context and manner in which a word is used matters. In fact, it often matters more than the word itself. Do you think a black person calling another black person a ‘nigger’ is meant to be racist? Like the usual expression of ‘cracker’ among white people, it usually serves to inform the other person that they’re reinforcing a stereotype and to knock off whatever behavior they’re being called out on. It can have other meanings. It can be stated in ways that are not hateful. I’ve had people call my daughter ‘adorable’ in a hateful way.
People need to focus more on context and the emotion behind a word and less on some black and white rule about language. You yourself, just above used nigger in a non-offensive way. Clearly you know that the word is not absolutely taboo, but you don’t seem to fully understand it.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: Sorry, not with you.
? Martin
@Keith G:
As far down as policy authority goes. If you get to set the rules, you’re under scrutiny for your policy judgement. If you don’t get to set the rules, no problem.
Omnes Omnibus
@? Martin: Yep.
ulee
@? Martin: I do understand it, I think, but it can be disrespectful and hurtful no matter who uses the word. People can call each other niggers and I know it’s not meant to harm but I have heard it used to degrade, to self degrade. I’m just trying to figure it all out.
scav
@Keith G: With equal validity, I will say it’s equally abstract. Do you care to explain further?
If barely one weeks worth of more or less organizing mouthing off by a heterogenous and limited set of people is a juggernaut of malign political correctness gone mad while perfectly enunciated politeness has achieved enlightenment with all that have come in contact with your sustained docility, well golly. I must live in a really bad neighborhood.
Mart
Scalia cocoons himself with the “Washington Times” as he believes Sun Myung Moon is the second coming of Christ, who should be rising from his cave any day now. Once I realized the Unification (Mooney) Church was pouring billions into running that paper; and the “Insight” magazine I found in so many company lobbies , I was like WTF – the mainstream takes these freaks seriously? Diane Rhem hosts their crazy ass “news” reporters on NPR. Years ago a caller complained about the Moon newspaper/next Jesus from Korea owner association and Diane ruled that off-limits, and cut the line. But at least the one true second coming of Christ, Mr. Moon, has kept us safe from the North Korean commies through his god-laser eyesight, Dennis Rodman and “Washington Times” op-eds.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: I am sorry, but this is really not a situation that a group of middle aged white guys should be trying to resolve. I have it on reliable authority that it is under consideration by the people who should be discussing it. In the meantime, I suggest that we just plain avoid the word. In any context. In Maine or Wisconsin.
ulee
for instance, if I had a black daughter and someone called her a nigger, I would have to be stopped from killing them. If she was playing volleyball and said oh you messed up nigger, I would talk to her and tell her that though she is just kidding around that is not a word that she should use.
Jordan Rules
Another white person believing in “blacks have issues” pathology. Surprise!!! So many fucking issues we managed to help get one of us elected to the White House. Geeeez. I completely understand the lack of benefit from confronting ones own priviledges and orientation regarding race. But this blog, thankfully, is not a place where people generally act so damned tone def about this stuff. Learn some shit here! Then go learn some more! Have mercy!!
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: @Omnes Omnibus: We are all in it together.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jordan Rules: I will hand it off to you.
ulee
@Jordan Rules: I don’t think I have a pathology. I’m just discussing things. Sometimes badly, I guess.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: Sorry. You may be phrasing things inaptly – god knows, I have done that – but don’t drag me into it. I don’t agree with what you have said as you have phrased it.
Keith G
@Omnes Omnibus: A legal donation to a political campaign is covered by the First Amendment – regardless of how odious I may find the group that receives the donation. If I believe that one can be fired for donating in support of Prop 8, then I am tacitly making the argument that it is okay be fired for donating to the anti 8 campaign.
As an out gay teacher/coach in the 80s, I was told that it would be wise to limit my “outside” activity. I thought their attempts to limit my political associations and discourse was barbaric.
2liberal
the video link has been removed by the user. the VOX link is dead. The atlantic link pleasures us with a picture of scalia. thanks a lot!
? Martin
@ulee:
We use lots of words to degrade. A woman used ‘adorable’ to degrade my daughter and I. The word wasn’t what mattered, but the intention behind it. We need to eliminate the intent do degrade, to harm, to belittle, and worry less about the words in play.
Nigger is a special word because it has such a long history specifically used for that purpose, specifically from whites against blacks. And that’s why even if there is no intent behind it, the word shouldn’t be used from a white person to, well, anyone else. It’s just too dangerous and too powerful. But for the people it was used against, it’s their word now. We’ve abused our privilege there.
Keith G
@scav: Your description is just that…your description. That’s not the way I see it.
Really?
Omnes Omnibus
@Keith G: It is covered by the First Amendment. OTOH please explain how Eich’s First Amendment rights were violated by the opposition to his appointment and his subsequent resignation. Please point out the government involvement.
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m not dragging you into anything. I’m sorry I even got on the subject. When Obama was elected I held up my freedom fist at work and said, “the brothers!” I’m tired of defending a ghost. Ask someone who is black and ask them if there is a problem with absent fathers and school dropouts. Whatever.
ruemara
@ulee: You seem to adore using that word, because you have so many concerns about the woeful black community. Perhaps you should stifle it for a nonce. The woeful white community, however, could use your concern.
scav
@Omnes Omnibus: Or, as I was getting at, the culpable role of the the public, specifically the activist public also wielding their right of free speech that inevitably led to his loss of a position. A position he resigned. A position Mozilla didn’t got to bat for, explaining that regrettable as it might seem and however much they as a company did not endorsee it, they were upholding his protected political speech over. But no no no, the group that must be critiqued are those with the least power not shutting up and asking politely enough.
Keith G
@Omnes Omnibus: Of course, counselor, the government was not involved. Both you and I are aware of that, and your movement toward pedantry in not necessary.
I am not trying to dress Eich up as as victim. I am wondering about the wisdom of enforcing the same miserable expectations in 2014 that I was warned of in 1984.
“If you involve yourself in political activism that we find objectionable, then you will lose your job.”
Omnes Omnibus
@scav: That too.
ulee
@ruemara: I don’t adore the word. I hate it. I’m just not afraid to say it.
Jordan Rules
@ulee: Ask me if there is a problem with the military industrial complex, lack of generational wealth, the state of education and all other basic governmental functions, voting rights and any number of for profit institutions that should not exist as such.
But yes, you tried, tried hard to have an honest discussion and were shot down. Wipe your hands of it cause you tried. Swim on, the waters were made for you; you need not pretend you don’t have gills any longer.
ulee
@Jordan Rules: Yea, there are a lot of problems, and no I wasn’t shot down. Dream on.
Omnes Omnibus
@Keith G: As I noted, CEOs are different than code monkeys. If you want to debate at which level the difference matters, that is valid. But we aren’t in a one of those borderline cases; Eich, briefly, was a CEO.
As far as pedantry goes, you first mentioned the First Amendment IIRC. Given that, how was it pedantry on my part to ask you how and why it applies?
Jordan Rules
@ulee: Do you understand how those problems intersect particulary and peculiarly with history and race though? That was the point.
You said we need to get our shit together and I find that so fuckin condescending and offensive that I’m not granting you the benefit of being an honest broker in this discussion…and your comment history about Obama seem randomly inserted and framed in a way to profess your alleged support but severe disappointment as not to out you as someone who really does see him as an extension and projection of all the blacks who treated you badly, have issues and just can’t be trusted.
Go read Tim Wise.
? Martin
@ulee:
40% of kids in this country are born to an unwed mother. There aren’t remotely enough black women in America to make that statistic true. Absent fathers aren’t a black problem, they’re an American problem – particularly a low-income problem, nearly as common among whites as among blacks.
The dropout rate for blacks is not substantially higher than it is for whites. The reason we think there’s a difference is that nobody gives a shit when poor white kids in Kentucky drop out of school, but we splash headlines when poor black kids in Chicago drop out.
Of course blacks will say it’s a problem. The question is why whites don’t say the same thing about white absent dads and white dropout rates.
There are 6 houses on my street. 3 have grown kids living at home, all with young children themselves. 2 of the 3 are unmarried, and both are white (the 3rd is Filipino). The common thread is that none of them can afford to live on their own, even with all 3 having college degrees. Having a husband doesn’t improve their situation as much as having parents with a home and a regular income.
I don’t see the absent dad as a problem. I see it as a symptom. We’ve only recently started talking about the problem.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: There are two commenters of color who have started to engage you on your topic. Just saying. Perhaps listening is not a bad idea.
You may see it differently, but a commenter (one I tend to think is a very silly person) pointed out to to me earlier this week that that I was, shall we say, pushing boundaries during a discussion earlier this week. I put some thought into it. I realized that I said some things inartfully. You may want to consider the same thing. After this, son, you are on your own.
Chris
@Mart:
I always found it insane that so-called “mainstream” Catholic and evangelical right wingers were so comfortable being in bed with what, by their theology, should be the ultimate blasphemer – he claimed to be the Messiah, FFS. Says quite a bit about how seriously these righties take their own religion.
ulee
Yea, there’s no problem in the black community. Everything is just fucking dandy. Jordan, I’ll look up and read Tim Wise. You all just back off you fucking motherfuckers.
Keith G
@scav: You are focusing on the specifics of Eich. Fine.
I have been speaking more generally about other ways to confront those with whom one disagrees. Although it can sure feel wonderfully self-righteous, attacking intolerance with intolerance may not be the best long term strategy.
@Omnes Omnibus: As it’s late I probably responded (re 1st Amd) with a bit too much apprehension that you were trying to get to a legally technical discussion of the protections given political expression and political association. I am not up for that at this time.
I am still working through the notion that citizens have the right to participate in public debate and should be able to do so without (in general) their personal life being disrupted. Yes, as we have agreed, folks in high leadership are in a different category as they hold that leadership at the whim of the organization. I said earlier, I am wondering how expansive the retribution for disliked political expression can be.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: Like I said, I got over-invested in a line of commentary earlier this week. You may want to consider whether you are doing the same.
Jordan Rules
@ulee: What in the entire fuck?!?! Are there problems in the white community? Or is there no such thing cause you guys, just are. The default, no deliniation because your supposed non-otherness confers any problems you have as normal.
Martin gives you facts and stats and you’re still falling back on black pathology. Why? America has problems. We are Americans FWIW. 400 years of free, forced labor is bound to create some wierd and unbalanced shit.
I’m hopeful you will read Tim Wise and others and keep an extremely open mind, much more than you are right now.
Omnes Omnibus
@Keith G:
Worthy of discussion. I think thougt that Eich is a poor subject for the discussion.
Joel
@Keith G: Would you argue that organizations should have no employment discretion over people who donate to white nationalist groups? By your standards, anyone who makes that argument is tacitly consenting to the idea that civil rights supporters could also be justifiably fired.
That is not a very convincing line of argument.
ulee
@Jordan Rules: Our white community here in Maine is fucked. Heroin and Oxys have taken their toll on young people. The whites are screwed up and the blacks are screwed up. It’s a cultural thing. It’s a socio-economic issue. But I think it is also a self identity issue. Blacks are robbing and killing and using in disproportionate numbers. Deny it or address the matter.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
There was a situation here in California after Prop 8 passed where it was discovered that the owner of a restaurant in West Hollywood (aka the gay capital of Los Angeles County) had made several donations to the anti-gay marriage side. Her gay customers stopped coming to the restaurant, because they felt that she had taken their money and used it against them. IIRC, some of them had actually gotten married in the pre-Prop 8 months and their marriages were now being legally called into question.
So, in your opinion, should they have continued to go to her restaurant even though her actions had basically caused their previously marriages to be invalidated?
I’m not sure that people outside of California understand how weird the legal situation became for married gay couples in California: first the California Supreme Court allowed gay couples to marry, and thousands of them did. Then Prop 8 passed and those thousands of couples had no idea what their legal status was or would end up being. Did they have to file their 2008 taxes as “married” or “single”? Did they have automatic hospital visitation rights? What if one spouse died after Prop 8 passed — did the surviving spouse inherit the same way a heterosexual spouse would, or would the estate be thrown to the courts because the marriage was no longer legal? Would they get “grandfathered in” as married, or would their marriages be automatically annulled?
Prop 8 created a lot of legal problems for married gay couples in California, and that’s part of the reason for the continuing animosity. It’s not just a problem of political speech or beliefs — Prop 8 caused actual, expensive legal problems for people in the real world.
? Martin
@Keith G:
I would say another rule of thumb is whether your advocacy negatively impacts others or not. That’s a valid critique of policy judgement.
Joel
@ulee: And the evidence to support this hypothesis is forthcoming, I’m sure.
Mnemosyne
@ulee:
Here’s the denial, using actual facts and statistics rather than your “feeling” that it must be true.
There’s a reason people keep telling you to read Tim Wise. Educate yourself before you embarrass yourself any further.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: Disproportionate to their standing in SES status? Or, fuck it, just call it flat out racist. I am trying, but you are not giving me much with which to work.
scav
@Keith G: You inteoduce your real topic of conversation very inarticulately then, with a poor choice of original illustrative example if that if that was your original intended goal. I would expect better from such a monument to the unique persuasive power of nothing but politeness in all circumstances. Having established a banality in abstract however, you can rest easy.
ulee
@Joel: Look it up yourself. I know you can do it.
Mnemosyne
@ulee:
I’ve looked it up for you, and you’re wrong (see #80). Post your own link showing that Tim Wise’s facts and statistics are wrong, or STFU.
Keith G
@Joel:
If that were what I have been saying, you would be correct.
@Mnemosyne: Being a customer is not the same as being an employer.
@? Martin: Based on what metric? Who decides?
ulee
Please. Look at the incarceration rate for black males. It’s not a good situation. I think that things are going to change. But we have to stop busting people for drugs and prostitution. It doesn’t work and it’s a worthless endeveor.
Keith G
@scav: That hurts. I think.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: General rules of the internet indicate that if one presents a proposition one should be able to support it, factually. While I am not the arbiter of various commenter’s credibility, I have seen nothing from you that would make me take your unsupported word for anything.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
Right, because, by law, employers are not allowed to discriminate based on specific characteristics. Here in California, sexual orientation is one of those characteristics.
So shouldn’t you be arguing that it’s worse to boycott a restaurant owner than it was to fire the CEO of a company since the CEO has a legal obligation to not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation that people were worried he would not honor?
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: Jesus. Really? Absent context? Read, think, contemplate. Please don’t comment on this until you have done those things.
A Humble Lurker
@ulee:
You might wanna consider giving that shovel a break.
Mnemosyne
@ulee:
Yes, it’s almost like black males get sentenced to jail for the same crimes that white males get probation or even charges dropped for. Nah, that couldn’t be true, because then you would have to admit that institutional racism still exists and that black men are routinely punished more severely by the courts than white men are.
ETA: Seriously, all of this stuff is taking me about five seconds to Google. You really, really need to step outside of your bubble and face reality instead of relying on comforting myths.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: Ah….No.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne: No, I think he gets that. His contrast is a valid one:
A teacher sets policy, so I’d say that’s a valid comparison. And it’s a good question as to what kind of advocacy is fair to push against and what kind isn’t fair.
I stand by my ‘do harm to others’ rule, but in the 80s it was widely held that any gay support was at least harmful to kids. My rule would almost certainly have been used against Keith G.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
Why not? If you stop patronizing a business whose owner contributed to the Prop 9 campaign, aren’t you losing your chance to change her mind and win her over to your side?
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: Then post the figures. Post the figures and make me look like a fool.
Omnes Omnibus
@? Martin: And 100 years ago it would have been used against “miscegenation,” society moves on.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: My dear, you made the claims. It is on you to support them. I am just saying that I don’t buy into your racial statements.
As far as looking like a fool goes….
? Martin
@Mnemosyne:
But we’ve been an exception on that. Frankly, there are few states as worker-friendly as CA is. Thankfully that’s been changing, and ENDA may yet get signed.
Except that silicon valley does have a legitimate gender discrimination problem. It’s not a gay discrimination problem, but a female discrimination one, and that’s been illegal for ages yet it keeps happening.
ulee
@Mnemosyne: Yea, like I said, the situation in the black community is wonderful. That’s why Jesse Jackson mournfully said that if he walked down a sidewalk and he saw some young black males he would cross the street. But Jesse doesn’t know what he’s talking about, does he?
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
I hate to tell ya, but the 1980s were 30 years ago. Things have changed a little bit since then.
I do think that Prop 8 is a different situation than your “garden variety” homophobia, though. It directly affected thousands of people and threw their legal status into question for several years.
To use a metaphor, let’s say that in 2015, the citizens of (let’s say) Arizona pass a voter initiative barring African-Americans from voting. It eventually gets reversed by the courts a few years later but, in the meantime, thousands of people are denied the right to vote. If it then comes out that the CEO of a large company based in Arizona donated money towards the ballot initiative to ban African-Americans from voting, would African-American groups be justified in calling for him to resign, or did he merely exercise his right to political speech?
Mnemosyne
@ulee:
I did, and now you look like a fool. Congratulations.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
But are Silicon Valley executives donating money to ballot initiatives dedicated to taking away women’s right to vote?
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: I am begging you. Just stop. I am aware of your previous posting history here regarding your personal problems, so I am making an effort to be polite. OTOH if you you want to drop racist bits, I’ll just say that your problems are your own.
ETA: Yeah, I went there.
ulee
Omnes, my darling. This is a civil case and I need not prove unadulterated evidence but just preponderance. My eyewitness testimony supports my account. And I don’t even have a dog in this fight.
Mnemosyne
Well, gents, it’s a work day tomorrow, so I have to bow out.
I do still think that the Prop 8 donation problem is different than your normal political speech because it (fortunately, only for a few years) changed the legal status of a specific group of people. For me, that takes it from mere speech to actual demonstrable harm that people have a right to be pissed off about.
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: Yup. I’ve got personal problems. Thank you. mumble….mumble some more…….But I see my girl tomorrow with my pups. She is free and clear of cancer and I have the day off and I’m looking forward to the Kentucky Uconn game.
ulee
Good night, Mnem.
AxelFoley
@ulee:
As a black person here, let me tell you first that you’re using it wrong.
We don’t call each other “niggers”. That’s what white folks call us.
Black folks use “niggas”. Kinda of a big difference.
As for its use, it’s like women calling each other ‘bitch”. A woman can call another woman a bitch, but a man can’t. Or gays calling each other names that would be disparaging coming from a straight person.
I can call my sister a dumbass, but you sure as hell can’t.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: Hmmm…You are changing the conditions as you type
and then
Those are not parallel notions.
Customers should go where they feel comfortable…in other words…where they want to go.
As I typed several times above…I am less concerned about CEOs due to the nature of their terms of employment. Generally speaking, I am curious about what safeguards there should be to protect any individual’s right to participate in the public debate through political expression and political association. Is it okay to fire a woman if it is found that she has donated to NARAL’s PAC?
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: Try to use links to previous comments. And your anecdotal evidence that AA people are more violent than white people is so damned statistically silly that one can only laugh. Seriously, you should give some thought to some of the things I said earlier.
ulee
@AxelFoley: I agree.
AxelFoley
@? Martin:
You, Omnes, and Jordan summed it all up.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne:
Well, no shit. But he was warned about advocacy in the 80s. Should he have been rightfully fired for that advocacy during the 80s? Under the standards that at least I’ve laid out, I suppose he could have. So I need better standards.
Sure. But what about abortion advocacy. Both sides take a principled position that it does harm. Both sides could use that as valid rationale to target an individual. We boycott anti-abortion businesses all the time. If an executive gave money to an anti-abortion cause, should they be individually targeted?
And here’s where I return to my point from a previous thread. Democrats don’t recognize money as speech. It’s not just what he’s said on the gay marriage issue, but that he put money behind the effort. The left has few targets for their objection to the money=speech issue – Koch, Adelman, etc. mainly because there are few records identifying contributors to specific causes (as opposed to candidates or parties). Prop 8 is one such set of records. Eich arrived as a contributor that wasn’t so wealthy as to be untouchable. He was a target that could be defeated. That might have been unfair, but we have few tools to fight back against billionaires owning causes and candidates.
I don’t think that was the source of his resignation – I think it was internal politics more related to the gay marriage issue, but the money issue was more what got my attention.
Omnes Omnibus
@AxelFoley: I did something useful? How odd.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne: Probably a few are, but we have no record of it. But women in the valley are being denied equal employment rights under the law at a troubling rate. The problem isn’t getting better. The presence of the law isn’t sufficient to ensure that the practice ends. You need policy makers within companies that will enforce and reinforce the law.
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: I went to public school in Maryland, just outside of DC. I know what I’m talking about, but ok.
AxelFoley
This thread is…wow.
We have Keith G, a gay man, arguing for having tolerance for bigots who use their resources to deny others their rights, and ulee, who’s telling us black folks we need to get our shit together so we can be upstanding citizens like all white folks are.
Again, wow.
? Martin
@AxelFoley: I try. Keep poking me when I get it wrong.
And yeah, it’s been an interesting thread.
ulee
@AxelFoley: yea, axel, it’s a problem. Move forward and help the people. Don’t be purposely stupid.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: Anecdata. I have friends who went to Woodrow Wilson High in Bethesda. They weren’t, to my knowledge, racists.
Wow, we have offered competing anecdata. Now offer some actual data. I made no appalling claims; I have nothing shitty to support. Have fun.
briber
Here is the frame of reference that I use to think about the departure of Mozillia’s CEO:
A few years ago, the Circuit City electronics big box store was having some trouble making sales projections. In response, upper management tightened expenses by giving pink slips to the most senior sales and support employees. There was no contract violation here , no employment law violation either. Just perfectly legal and perfectly shitty “hard nosed” business decisions.
The day I heard about these layoffs I thought to myself that there was nothing that Circuit City could do to retain me as a customer. They could be giving away big screen tvs to all comers and I would still not darken their door.
That dick move was the beginning of the end for Circuit City, they never recovered.
The moral as it applies to Mozilla is that people will vote with their feet. The board encouraged the CEO to resign to preserve the value of the Mozilla brand. As to how far down the amputation should go, I’d say that if you are being hired to be the caretaker of a brand and those who hire you find you unable to discharge those duties, then they are well within their rights to let you go.
Omnes Omnibus
@AxelFoley: Honestly, I don’t have enough booze in my house to get these things.
ETA: I have given ulee every benefit of every available doubt.
Jordan Rules
@ulee: Still not speaking on the facts and stats that others have graciously offered up. But, but, but I grew up in an urban area. Slow fucking clap Ulee. You are smart enough to know better and are speaking out because the weight of your own “liberal” racism is a burden and you want us to do the work for you to reconcile it. Nope, there is no reconciling. And you gotta do the work to figure out why your focus is where it is and the next time a white person does you wrong, remember this thread!
Scream Nigger in the mirror 10 times to get it out of your system too. I’m almost convinced this sickness needs that type of medicine. No matter how much people told you to stop and be thoughtful you dug in cause you swear there is no way, between your experiences and everything the American way reinforces, you could be wrong. Welcome to America, the home of Katrina and Obama, you’re wrong. Please take Jessie’s advice and walk on the other side of the street, I would not want black folks to be inconvenienced by your burden. That shit is heavy and takes up a lot of space.
ulee
My grandparents lived near Gettysburg Pennsylvania and I spent my time looking for ordinace. Not once did I give a shit about race and I still don’t care.
Keith G
@AxelFoley: That’s a bit of a (willful?) misstatement.
To retype: Generally speaking, I am curious about what safeguards there should be to protect any individual’s right to participate in the public debate through political expression and political association – even if that political expression is thought to be unsettling.
In a better world, persons would be free to make their political statements and when they are opposed, that opposition comes in the form of better political statements and not by some form of punishment for not being a “good person”.
ulee
@Jordan Rules: I’m sorry you’re sick and angry. I am neither.
Jordan Rules
@ulee: How am I sick and angry? We’ve asked you to lay proof to your claims on several occasions so again, do tell?
Is it cause I’m black? And obviously I have issues and need to get my shit together?
ulee
So I guess race is an untouchable subject here at Balloon Juice. I just gave my impressions and now I suppose I am a racist. Oh, well. Good thoughts for all of you.
ulee
@Jordan Rules: yes, it’s because you are black.
Omnes Omnibus
@Keith G: At what point does it become concern trolling? An equally valid question, I think.
@ulee: So what? I have a bunch of ancestors who fought in the Civil War. They fought for the Union, but that says fuck all about their attitudes about black folks – a subject I try to avoid because too many ugly things that may be there. I go with they fought for the North ( and hopefully against slavery).
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee:
Say no more.
Jordan Rules
@ulee: Indeed! Good tidings sir.
ulee
Good Lord. I cannot believe the vindictive attitude towards me. I made an observation. The black community has a problem. It’s pretty obvious. We can make this better. Fathers, father up. Killers, don’t kill. Do we all remember the million man march. Think those guys did that in a vacuum?
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: yea, I know your type. Luckily I’m not on trial.
briber
To continue my thoughts…
The core question for the Mozilla board was this: “Knowing that Eich made these contributions on behalf of prop 8, will he be able to do his job?”
The Mozilla board found the answer to be no.
Where Sully gets muddled in his analysis is in thinking that vocal users of Firefox are wrongly going about making their choice of web browser provider and as a result, wrongly putting the board in the unseemly circumstance of having to let the CEO go.
in the end:
-customers will select busnesses and products
-workers will choose an employer
-business will act in their own interests
and
-wingnuts/theocrats/authoritarians will scream bloody murder whenever they dont get their way
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: God. Stop drinking, Go to bed. Reread what you have posted. Then feel ashamed. I really tried to offer you some advice. You ignored it. Cheers, you racist shit.
Keith G
@Omnes Omnibus: Hell, I donno.
I am just responding…telling what I am thinking about on this issue (as I finish laundry), asking questions, trying to avoid telling others how right or wrong they are – which is easy since I am not certain where the lines are. I do not see this as black and white, except to the point that more speech is better than less speech. Which to me should be rather uncontroversial.
A Humble Lurker
@ulee:
I think a case can be made for that. And anyway, I’d say Mnem’s actual evidence trumps…something Jesse Jackson once said.
briber
reading the last batch of comments makes me feel like I’m commenting on the wrong thread
Jordan Rules
@ulee: There has been nothing vindictive, cut the bullshit and go learn.
Did you read Bettys last thread about race to see what, generally, the discussion should look like? You should.
Why aren’t the problems with the white community, which you admit to, as problematic for you? Why do you feel the need to lecture us to get it together? It wasn’t an observation, it was a proclamation based on assumptions swimming in America’s racism and no matter how many times we tried to point that out and discuss it with facts, you refused. Why?
Omnes Omnibus
@Keith G: Should no one have said anything about Eich? That is it the other side. Ignore it?
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: You are lashing out. You must be tired and frustrated. Perhaps you should get some sleep,
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: You are lashing out. You must be tired and frustrated. Perhaps you should get some sleep,
ulee
double post again goddamnit.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jordan Rules: Why? I think we know the actual answer.
ulee
@Jordan Rules: Because I want to. I’m not an academic. I live my life and report the results.
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh Omnes, you find comfort in believing I’m a racist. I’m not. Sorry about that.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: I have had a few drinks, I have not said anything that I would not stand by.
Can you say the same?
AxelFoley
@Jordan Rules:
If ulee does it in the dark at midnight, I wonder if the ghost of Django will appear?
AxelFoley
@Keith G:
It’s one thing to make a political statement, but it’s another to actively try to deny others their rights.
I’ve worked for people I know have…shall we say biases. But none were ever in a position to use their biases to harm others.
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: yes. I’ll stand by it all but I can always be talked out of anything if I’m wrong. I’m just talking, not married to the words. Basically, I’ll help anyone, anywhere, anyhow, etc.
Jordan Rules
@Omnes Omnibus: Yep. We do know why and it still makes me sad, we have so damn far to go. I guess these discussions should be saved for those willing to be honest actors. Sigh.
Screw this! Gonna remind myself of some of the amazing comments in Bettys thread to reinforce how far we’ve come. And I’m gonna giggle again at the comment in an earlier post about how, without folks of color, America would be a Scandanavian style democracy with the quickness. Powerful, funny and sad.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: I have offered you multiple chances to walk a way from your comments. Why don’t you say yes? Anyway, cheers. You are a sad little person,
@Jordan Rules: You know that I think we should be a Scandinavian social democracy with all, y’all. right?
Keith G
@Omnes Omnibus: I am not sure where that is coming from (I may be too tired).
Eich is just a single case in a wider topic – a useful tool (said purposefully) to illustrate the interplay of important principles.
I never proposed to ignore it, but to try to establish context. What was the outcome of his choices? Yes, I do not like his action in this circumstance, but how many divisions does Eich command? I only know two things about him. Therefore, I may be unaware of any greater damage he might be capable of.
Thus, I care less about the person that is Eich than I care about the issues of democratic participation and how to encourage the best level of debate and participation possible. – or how to avoid doing stupid (lizard brained) things that limit debate.
Jordan Rules
@ulee: Thank goodness for science and academics. You don’t have to do their work, but maybe you should lean on it in this matter as undoubtedly you do in others. Just sayin.
Plain and simple: it is not fair to black folks for you to base your perceptions of them as a group and solely on your personal experiences, your second hand stories and media-driven perceptions. It’s not fair and you likely don’t do it to other groups of people.
Jordan Rules
@Omnes Omnibus: Course! Me too!
Jordan Rules
@ulee:
You realize that’s wht conservatives say about climate change and a host of other issues.
What you say about black folks is not fair to me and millions of others.
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: You can’t offer that which you don’t have to give. Here at 4am dishing your laundry. I’m going to see my woman tomorrow with my dogs. On the trail, out to eat, then Kentucky vs. UConn. You are a little man by attacking. Good luck.
Omnes Omnibus
@Keith G:People (specifically me) have said that context matters. Perhaps you should wait until there are specific problems?
Groucho48
@ulee:
No, you’re not “just trying to figure it all out”. You are a racist troll who can’t keep his bigotry restrained for more than half a dozen posts.
@Keith G:
I doubt very seriously any woman who had donated to NARAL could become CEO of a whole bunch of companies in this country. In fact, just being a women would probably be enough to keep her out of the running for quite a few companies. Same with an openly gay person. Your concern trolling about the treatment of bigots actually has a grain of substance behind it, as all good concern trolling does, but, hey, why shouldn’t bigots get the same treatment as those that are bigoted against?
ulee
@Jordan Rules: yea, I’m a conservative. Try again.
Keith G
@Omnes Omnibus: Perhaps I will
ulee
@Groucho48: You’re a moron.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: Do you have any idea how much of an asshole you are being? Seriously. Do you?
Jordan Rules
@ulee: Reply to the substance. Science and academia matter; its not fair to paint us in broad strokes. You used a conservative trope. What about that?
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: OMG. get a life.
ulee
@Jordan Rules: I like black people. I like white people. You all should give it a rest.
Jordan Rules
@ulee: You win. You always do.
FYI, I remember how you attacked Alison and like Omnes, I’m not going to punch below the belt (even though you clearly did to a whole race of people), but you should sweep around your own front door before you try to sweep around mine.
Omnes Omnibus
@ulee: Okay. Bear this in mind in the future, when you you talk about hanging your self because you are fucking about. I will tell people not to worry; you are mentally stable. I’ll just have people reference this discussion., =\
ulee
@Jordan Rules: I don’t always win. I usually lose. And I feel bad about fighting with Alison but she mocked me when I was suicial. I’m not a bigot. I’m just a drunk throwing around ideas. Truly, good thoughts for you and your dear ones.
ulee
@Omnes Omnibus: I didn’t mean anything by it. I was just talking. Did you help me when I was suicidaI meant to hang myself. It was bad, hiding the marks from my doctor. Sorry if I hurt you.
Groucho48
@ulee:
So, the racist troll is playing the victim card. How….totally expected.
ulee
@Groucho48: Yea, you wish. Trolling for racists. You should get a show.
El Cid
When is the black community finally going to take responsibility for how they set up the FDNY & PDNY? And when are black leaders going to apologize for having created ‘the hockey game’?
ulee
@El Cid: I agree. It’s an outrage.
ulee
I’m off to bed. I’ll get you my pretty…and your little dog too!
A Humble Lurker
@ulee:
She lost in the end, you know.
jayackroyd
Ezra needs to consider his own reality problems:
That’s what the centrist media wants to believe. With FOX running in the background.
Dave
@Omnes Omnibus: Jesus it never occurred to me that was anything but Tiger. How screwed up are things when we would put the other into a nursery rhyme like that.
libarbarian
@Jordan Rules:
I’d like to weigh in on your question.
Nope. There aren’t. All our women are strong, all our men are good looking, and all our children are above average.
Mnemosyne
@ulee:
Basically, you came here and declared that the universe revolves around the Earth, because you stood in your backyard and watched the sun. You then proceeded to ignore all of the scientific evidence that shows that the Earth actually revolves around the sun because that’s not what it looked like from your backyard.
And, yes, ignoring facts to maintain your own prejudices makes you a racist. If you don’t like that, try not being so fucking racist.
EthylEster
These hockey guys were forced to fight by the low quality refereeing!
If they didn’t fight, Hockey Jesus would haz sad.