@EWErickson, in other words? RT @PrototypeCube: #CPACStrawPollWinner 380 pounds of mashed potatoes poured into a wetsuit
— billmon (@billmon1) March 9, 2014
“Bring out the Hellmouth, and bring out the BEST!”
Dana Milbank, in the Washington Post:
… The annual CPAC gathering, conservatism’s trade show, provides a snapshot of the anarchy: The group’s much-celebrated straw poll of presidential candidates listed no fewer than 26 prospective contenders on the ballot this year — a sign of just how fractured the party is in advance of 2016….
It isn’t so much a split — the “establishment” has gone so far to co-opt the tea party that the lines between them are blurry — as a lack of agreement on who should be leading the party and in which direction. Should it be the uncompromising Cruz (he also was on the agenda at the “Uninvited” splinter convention)? The get-it-done Christie? The internationalist Marco Rubio? The libertarian Paul? The anti-union Scott Walker? Or Ryan the social engineer?…
When you have 26 conservative combatants, you don’t have war; you have mayhem.
Dave Weigel, at Slate, wraps up his usual extensive & excellent coverage, under the title “Conservatism in America, 2014“:
… Poor Rick Santorum. On Friday, the probably 2016 presidential candidate whom the media isn’t quite sure how to cover gave a well-received, condensed version of a speech he’s been giving to Republican groups. Its theme: Republicans should not, could not simply talk about “job creators” and who “built that” business. They needed a positive economic agenda; they needed to realize that government had the power to organize and persuade, just as anti-smoking laws cut down the numbers of smokers to unthinkable lows.
And then Sarah Palin closed out the conference by telling “beltway Republicans” (like her 2008 ticket partner John McCain) to back off of immigration reform because “that victory you won in 2010? You didn’t build that!”
Palin’s speech was a pretty typical collection of memes, alliterative insults, and sentence fragmentation, but the one thing that stuck with me was her endorsement of the theory that Ted Cruz’s demand that the CR not include funding for Obamacare was itself the reason that Obamacare had become unpopular. Also, that Cruz had acted on this demand with a “filibuster.’ To every pollster and (cough) beltway Republican, the two-week government shutdown was an obvious and predictable disaster, a real-time bailout of the Demo- crats that distracted from the absolute nadir of healthcare.gov’s problems and gave the president a poll boost, and to everyone familiar with Senate rules, Cruz’s marathon speech was not actually a filibuster.
It does not matter. On the activist right, the reality is closer to what Palin said.
And I am probably just a nasty old cynic, but when Repubs like Rick Perry and Grover Norquist start talking about prison reform and civil liberties, I immediately assume they — or their paymasters — have been notified that they’re about to come under indictment.
For the closer, as always, the irreplaceable Charles P. Pierce:
By now, and by god, it should have settled permanently in the consciousness of the nation what a huge and untoward gamble with the country John McCain and his campaign took in 2008 when they elevated Sarah Palin from her rightful place on the tundra to the political celebrity she currently enjoys. McCain should pay a heavy price for unleashing this ignorant, two-wheeled bilewagon on the country’s politics. If you think she’s a legitimate political leader, you’re an idiot and a sucker and I feel sorry for you.
Yesterday she gave a wildly received speech to ring down the curtain at CPAC. The applause, as far as I know, may still be going on. It was as singularly embarrassing a public address as any allegedly sentient primate ever has delivered. It was a disgrace to politics, to rhetoric, to the English language, and to seventh-grade slam books everywhere…
A friend bailed on the speech, making the very plausible case that Palin is simply another political celebrity freakshow, like Donald Trump. I can see the point there but, with Palin, and watching the hysterical reception her puerile screed received, there is something more serious going on. She is the living representation of the infantilization of American politics, a poisonous Grimm Sister telling toxic fairy tales to audiences drunk on fear, and hate and nonsense. She respects no standards but her own. She is in perpetual tantrum, railing against her betters, which is practically everyone, and volunteering for the job of avatar to the country’s reckless vandal of a political Id. It was the address of a malignant child delivered to an audience of malignant children. If you applauded, you’re an idiot and I feel sorry for you.
Amir Khalid
Are there really 26 serious contenders for the Republican presidential nomination in 2016? That seems an awfully generous assessment.
BGinCHI
Rand Paul won the straw poll?
I didn’t think he was invasion curious enough.
BGinCHI
@Amir Khalid: My first thought when I heard about that Malaysian Air flight was that I hope you weren’t on it.
Terrible for those people.
c u n d gulag
And here, after the nonsense coming from her of late became more… I don’t know… sedate, for lack of a better term, I was about to change my nickname for her from, “The Whore of Babblin-on,” to “The Mouth That Bored.”
But, like any mindless river or stream, Sarah keeps “babblin’-in” on.
So, I think I’ll stick with my original nickname to her – with apologies to sex-workers everywhere, because the least among them, are smarter, and better people, than “The Whore of Babblin-on!”
OzarkHillbilly
@Amir Khalid: That all depends upon your definition of “serious contender”.
lou
Here’s a great story from NPR about a bunch of libertarians moving to a town in New Hampshire to start a “Free State” movement and driving the locals crazy.
It sums up the whole problem with the libertarian mindset nicely.
Omnes Omnibus
@Amir Khalid: Depends if you count Harold Stassen. I think he is too much of RINO for the current GOP. His being dead probably matters less.
dmsilev
@Omnes Omnibus: Zombie Reagan 2016!
I’m sure Scalia can come up with a reason why the term limit doesn’t apply.
Fred Fnord
@c u n d gulag: You know, if you’d stop insulting sex workers with the comparison, you might be able to stop apologizing to them. And you might have some actual credibility when you do.
I mean, really. Will you refer to the next Republican presidential nominee (whoever he may be) as ‘Faggoty-Ass McNugget’ and then ‘apologize’ to gay people?
Higgs Boson's Mate
@lou:
Just, wow. The words “and carve Grafton out as a “U.N.-free zone,” suggest to me that libertarians (I won’t do them the honor of capitalizing their madness) are just as delusional as their Russo-hypocrite Earth Mother. There are any number of novels that might inform a reader’s life for the better. Ayn Rand wrote none of them.
schrodinger's cat
If you need a respite from malignant Sarah, you can rest your gaze on benevolent Shiro, a picture of Zen with a Colander on his Head. Anom,
IowaOldLady
Outside of CPAC, every person I see on TV kind of snickers when they mention Sarah Palin. I take that as a good sign.
mark
Charles Pierce is the best. He’d be nationally syndicated and have his own show if we had a free press/media.
Davis X. Machina
@lou: I wonder if the local Cumby’s will take Bitcoins, or weigh out pinches of gold dust.
c u n d gulag
@Fred Fnord:
Does Palin not ‘babble-on?”
And won’t that grifter do anything and everything for money?
I rest my tired, old, fat-assed case!
Suffern ACE
@lou:
So not any less conspiratorial than their Republican friends. And our polish immigrant friend is either 90 or misremembering things. There was no slow creep of Stalinism in Poland-it actually came to Poland quite rapidly.
Gin & Tonic
@lou: Too libertarian crazy for small-town New Hampshire? That’s very impressive.
WaterGirl
@dmsilev: I thought it was consecutive terms that were limited to two. So I feel fairly confident that Zombie Reagan could, indeed, run again in 2016.
Baud
@Suffern ACE:
And libertarians can’t compete with fascists in the polls!
Damn you, fascists! Why you gotta be so seductive?
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Complete bar at federal level. Some states have a consecutive terms limit.
Suffern ACE
@WaterGirl: I think it could be argued that Zombie Reagan is a new candidate. As a body without a soul, a zombie is missing critical essential features. Zombie Reagan can serve two terms; Ghost Reagan two more.
Baud
@Suffern ACE:
But a full belly. Thanks, liberals! /Paul Ryan
Frankensteinbeck
@lou:
The crowning demonstration of libertarian thought here is that they moved into an already built community in an attempt to take it over and stop paying for the services that built it. They can’t go Galt and start their own town, because they need everything they’re trying to get rid of.
Chris
Rubio “the internationalist.”
I LOL’d, then I cried.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@WaterGirl:
Nope, the currently ascendant lunatic wing of the Republican party would quickly denounce Zombie Reagan as a RINO.
IowaOldLady
@WaterGirl: The 22nd Amendment reads:
No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice
So I think Zombie Ronnie is out of luck.
GregB
@lou:
I live in NH and these Free Staters are a real thing. I rail against them because they are full of shit.
If you want to prove your libertarian values, move to some forested and unnamed lot in northern Maine and start from fucking scratch.
Don’t move into a town that has had a civil government and all of the trappings that come with it like roads, utilities and buildings and then stake your claim.
You didn’t build that!
Also Pierce is right on with his assessment of Palin. Tiny minded, venal and as boring as the day is long.
scav
@Suffern ACE: Nononono, Pls submit evidence Original Reagan ever had soul, or anything below a carefully and lovingly polished surface appearance.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@IowaOldLady:
Although I recall a goodly number of Republicans calling for the repeal of the 22nd during Reagan’s second term and Bush the Lesser’s first one.
Davis X. Machina
@GregB:
Township 2 Range 13 isn’t within a reasonable commute if you’re looking for work that’s amenable to libertarians, the kind of work they like to do, and are good at.
Baud
@GregB:
The strongest argument libertarians have against government is that an effective and functioning government enables libertarians to exist.
eric
@IowaOldLady: W has another run in him then
dmsilev
@IowaOldLady: I see a loophole in ‘person’. Is Zombie Reagan strictly speaking a person?
Higgs Boson's Mate
@GregB:
As if. Some of them are at least smart enough to know that the outcome of a stunt like that would make the Donner Party look like a Sunday School picnic.
Baud
@dmsilev:
I think the bigger problem is whether Zombie Reagan is a natural born citizen.
Poopyman
@IowaOldLady: Not so! Zombies are not people. Now if Zombie Reagan were a corporation, he’d be SOL.
dmsilev
@Baud: Is voodoo resurrection magic ‘natural’? Surely there must be something in the Federalist Papers that addresses this key question.
Suffern ACE
@dmsilev: no. Zombie activists will lie and tell you otherwise, but no Zombies are not persons. Look, I’m not a bigot. I’m all in favor of rights for zombies. I’m just against special rights for zombies. Zombies do not have the right to redefine person to suit their political agenda.
Poopyman
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: I thought the Donner Party was a Sunday school picnic.
Poopyman
@Suffern ACE: Well played.
Baud
@dmsilev:
Only if it’s Christian.
Poopyman
@Baud: Hmmm. Since voodooism is a mishmash of animism and Catholicism, I’d say the odds are fairly good. At least a zombie could make that argument with some justification.
dmsilev
@Suffern ACE: So I take it you insist on defining marriage as being between two living adults?
Animist.
Baud
@Poopyman:
It wouldn’t be the craziest decision the Roberts court has handed down.
WaterGirl
I stand corrected on the two term vs. two consecutive term issue. Note to lazy self: it’s not that hard to google before you say something that is completely and verifiably wrong.
I do wonder, however, whether original Reagan had any more soul than Zombie Reagan would have.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Balloon Juice is an empire. We create our own reality.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Poopyman:
The Donner Party’s only failing was to that it was insufficiently conservative. True conservatives would have dispatched the weakest and poorest among them at the first snow and thus had plenty of salted-down long pork to carry them through the Winter.
Suffern ACE
@Poopyman: so I take it Zombie Reagan is old school Zombie, controlled by a witch doctor, and not new school Zombie, reanimated by a virus. If he is old school, I think we do need to turn to the Jewish religious traditions to see what laws there are covering golems in government to see how Madison and John Jay might have conceived of limits on Zombie rights. Actually, after zombie Reagan and Ghost Reagan serve their terms, Golem would be the next in line.
Villago Delenda Est
The thing about Palin is that she is merely an entertainer, not a serious politician. She demonstrated that she’s not interested in the actual work of governing, or even ruling, when she bailed on the Alaska governor’s job. She wants to give speeches to her target audience and no one else, where they can all luxuriate in the bubble together. Outside that small group, she’s dismissed as a very bad joke.
Pierce is right that one of McCain’s serious crimes is elevating this creature to the national stage where she can inflict her puerile crap on a wider audience. The MSM, ever in search of some novelty to spike ratings, to draw eyeballs they can monetize, goes right along with it.
This Ferengi-Pakled hybrid stuff is really going to be the death of this species, and Palin is a prime example of it.
Liberty60
Actually, they didn’t just applaud Palin’s speech- They brought out a loving cup, passed it around, chanting- “Gooble Gobble, We Accept Her, ONE OF US, ONE OF US!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C4uTEEOJlM
WaterGirl
@Baud: Have you been under the weather recently? Seems like you haven’t been commenting as much.
Poopyman
@Higgs Boson’s Mate (Actually from the gardening thread):
“I’ve cut it twice and it’s still too short.”
Yeah, there’s working in wood and there’s working in wood. Even trying to build a boat to cabinetry tolerances leads to tears. Work with what the material will allow. And since you’re making stuff that’ll stay outdoors, your real worry is accommodating how much the wood’s going to move. Stay away from glued joints and use draw-bored and pegged mortise and tenon joints. Butt joints that are screwed together will work in the short term, but likely to work loose.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
No, I’m fine. Just ebbs and flows, I guess.
Poopyman
@Suffern ACE: One thing Reagan definitely was was Old School.
maya
Since, according to legal conservative gospel, corporations are people too, why has it not yet occurred to our rightwing brethren and sistren that Newscorp or Domino’s Pizza could run for the presidency? Any corporation could be Corp In Charge with the guidance of an old-fashioned appointed Regent system (A Ronald Regency?) to help the fledgling President,Inc. along. Thus all 26 of their present contendas could effectively serve as co-regents all at the same time. Wouldn’t that be fun!
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
Somewhat on the topic, I gagged when seeing the title of MoDo’s column while reading an actually worthwhile opinion piece in today’s NYT. The one worth reading was about antibiotics as endocrine disruptors and thus indicated in population wide weight gain over decades. Just, for the love of g*d (as I think Pierce often writes) do not let your eyes stray to the right or you’ll see the sidebar.
Joey Maloney
@Fred Fnord:
I believe we’ll discover that’s Ted Cruz’ actual given name, once we get ahold of his long-form Canadian birth certificate.
muddy
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I saw the headline in the email list they send in the morning. My eyes nearly bugged out of my head! I did not click.
muddy
@Fred Fnord: The title “Whore of Babylon” is not about sex workers, ffs.
scav
Open Tangential Thought. Would a solid application of Roundup rid us of this infestation of CPAPists and would it be an acceptable ecological trade-off? It would certainly add a flavor to any endo-tribal cannibalism that might occur.
JGabriel
Cruz/Palin 2016!
They are: The Republicans Most Likely To Push The Overton Window To The Left.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
The really sums up the hard Right doesn’t it? It’s not about some political agenda; it’s about living out a second childhood on the national stage.
chopper
@Amir Khalid:
i don’t think anyone used the word ‘serious’.
chopper
@Fred Fnord:
your point aside, i am both fascinated and frightened of whoever the GOP would cough up that could rationally earn that particular moniker.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Fred Fnord: Y
Palin is pretty much the political equivalent of a sex worker – a MILF who for money spews out what the audience wants to hear, so word “whore” applies here.
Davis X. Machina
@Poopyman: The legendary boatbuilder Dynamite Payson had a special ‘Moaning Chair’ in his shop to sit in after making cuts that were measured twice, and still came out wrong….
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Poopyman:
I suspect that anything made of wood will eventually loosen up over time. Draw-boring and mortise and tenon joints are a bit beyond the equipment I have on hand at the moment so I compensated by using fistfuls of Grip Rite outdoor-grade 2-1/2″ Torx head screws (In counterbored holes wherever applicable) and 1-5/8″ ones for the short reaches. In order to get the greatest longevity from the wood I coat each piece with either Thompson’s Water Seal or Olympic outdoor stain before assembly. At my age, I’m reasonably confident that the furniture will last longer than I do.
WaterGirl
@scav: Excuse me, but this is not the Garden thread!
I must confess, though, that while I am not a fan of using roundup in my garden environment, I do applaud the potential use of *Roundup as suggested in your comment.
*Consideration is limited to the present circumstances.
WaterGirl
@Baud: As do the number of threads on balloon juice! If the weather were nicer, I would wonder if all the front pagers have been playing hooky lately.
Ruckus
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Second childhood? I think you give them too much credit for having actually gotten out of the first one.
They are stuck at 7, never having gone any farther.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@WaterGirl:
I lost my head for a moment and strayed from the BJ commentariat’s legendary adherence to the thread topic.
Look! A kitteh!
;)
Violet
Speaking of the gardening thread, I wish it would show up later in the day. It’s always so early and not living in the eastern time zone I never get to comment and participate until it’s gone slow or dead. Especially when the garden being profiled is not in the eastern time zone, it only seems fair to post the thread at a reasonable hour for that garden so the person or people who tend it will have half a chance to be awake and comment.
IowaOldLady
@Ruckus: They’re too mean for 7 year olds. I’d say 11 or 12.
Ruckus
@Davis X. Machina:
Warning, Danger Will Robinson.
Do not click on that link. You have to “activate” the page by clicking on an answer. Don’t know where that goes but it can’t be good. And the page tries to reset your homepage.
It be a bad page.
Ruckus
@IowaOldLady:
Not too mean for conservative 7 yr olds.
Normal 7 yr olds sure. But they are also too stupid for 11-12 yr olds so I’m going to stick with my first comment.
IowaOldLady
@Ruckus: Ya got me there.
Violet
@IowaOldLady: @Ruckus: I think you’re both wrong. They’re toddlers. They’re the embodiment of the id. They want what they want NOW! They don’t get it—Waaaaaaah! Temper tantrum. Lots of base responses–pouting, hitting, taking, screaming, crying, smiling. And the signature toddler tell–it doesn’t matter unless it happens to them.
JoyfulA
@lou: I know a couple of people who were in this libertarian free state movement. Eventually, one stayed in Georgia, and the other one moved to California.
I do know two people who did move to New Hampshire, though. Both are self-avowed socialists.
scav
Two quotes illustrative of the beating heart of their brave new Small-Govt Free-Market Job-creatin’ Bootstrap-Levitating world.
from NYT The ‘Boys’ in the Bunkhouse
patrick II
I haven’t payed too much attention to CPAC, but the bit I saw on TV that amused me was Rick Perry’s wearing glasses now. Evidently he is testing the Sarah Palin theory that no matter what dumb things I say, if I wear glasses it will sound smarter to these rubes.
Cervantes
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
One could argue that if Palin is a “sex worker,” that’s the only kind of worker she is. I’m not making that claim. If being a “whore” simply means getting paid to do what someone else wants you to do, then where do you draw the line?
Violet
@patrick II: Both Rick Perry and Jeb Bush have used the hipster-ish rectangular glasses recently. Cracked me right up. Do they think it makes them look younger or something?
MikeJ
@Cervantes:
It’s why I always call myself a conslutant.
Davis X. Machina
@Ruckus: It goes to the Bangor Daily News obit for Payson. At least it does on my machine. And my home page is as it ever was…
Ruckus
@Violet:
Had a “step” daughter for a while but she was past toddler stage by then. My experience with toddlers is very limited and a very long time ago. So I will bow to your superior knowledge of the subject.
Would just ask if for some the toddler stage runs past what 2-3 yrs old?
Violet
@Ruckus: Some people seem stuck in toddler stage forever. At present, there seems to be a large concentration of those folks in the Republican party.
Ruckus
@Davis X. Machina:
I wondered about that but it was screwed on FF on my mac. Not a clean page at all.
Didn’t think you send us to a bad page on purpose.
Ruckus
@Violet:
100%?
Davis X. Machina
@Ruckus: My daily paper. I can’t imagine what’s wrong…. same OS and browser, too
kindness
Charles Pierce is nicer than me. I don’t feel sorry for people who think highly of Sarah Palin. I pity them. Them’s two completely different responses. Sometimes sorrow accompanies pity but not this time for me. Those people he’s talking of? They are intentionally ignorant and brag about it. I don’t feel sorry for them.
Violet
@Ruckus: Well, as with toddlers, there are enablers that keep things moving along for them. Generally in families, those people are known as parents or sometimes older siblings. They’re the ones that get and make the food, clothing and shelter and arrange entertainment options and so forth. For Republicans, they’re the consultants and other types that keep the wheels turning.
Found this list of characteristics of toddlers:
Could easily describe most Republicans.
Ruckus
@Violet:
Since you used the word most I’ll change to 98%.
Ruckus
@Davis X. Machina:
Maybe it’s the location. I believe I’m not in your local area, so maybe that has something to do with it.
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
The thing about Palin is she’s not even serious enough to be an unserious politician.
I mean, “not a serious politician” is a feature not a bug for Republican bosses and financiers. They love a grinning monkey in a suit to be the public face of the crime syndicate (Reagan, Bush). But Palin is too lazy even for that job.
Steeplejack
@Davis X. Machina:
It went to the obit story for me, but I got only the first paragraph and the request to “answer a question” to get the whole article. And I was asked whether I wanted to share my location with the site. Sketchy and too much hassle.
Cervantes
@Ruckus: On my Mac and iPad the page only asked if it could use information about my current location (presumably to show me a relevant weather forecast or some such). Nothing about activation or re-setting my home page.
MikeJ
@Steeplejack: Didn’t do any of that for me, but that’s why I use noscript.
scav
@Violet: Mmmm, equivalence fails for me on the “not malicious” and “generally capable, not to say even often eager, for learning and development” criteria.
IowaOldLady
@Violet: I’m impressed. You go, Violet!
Violet
@scav: It’s not a perfect comparison, but since people were trying to compare Republicans with children and settle on an appropriate age comparison, I think toddler level is the most accurate. They’re not 7-8 because those kids are nicer. And they’re not 11-12 because those kids are smarter (as are the 7-8 year olds). They operate on an id basis. Me, me, me all the time.
scav
@Violet: Ah, well, given the limited options . . . . You might also note a tendency to Parallel Play, as they generally haven’t learned to play well with others and are generally dodgy about the mental construct that other people are in fact people with internal lives of their own different from theirs.
billgerat
What kind of dressing goes with a Sarah Palin word salad? Russian, I suspect.
dr. luba
@Ruckus: The page worked for me, and I’m on Safari, on a Mac, in the Detroit area.
jomike
Has a high-profile web site ever staked more of its credibility on a single writer than Slate does upon Weigel?
Suzanne
@Violet: I think they’re more like 5-6. Mentally developed enough to cause trouble, but not mentally developed enough to have the good judgment not to do it.
? Martin
Nice writeup about the silliness of Google/Facebook networking drones, and about glibertarian dreams involving 3rd world markets in general. And probably about the dangers of having more money than one really knows how to spend, though that’s left unaddressed.
Cervantes
@dr. luba: Since you’ve likely been paying more attention here than I have, here’s a question: Has there been much discussion of the following?
It’s Tim Snyder, of course — but what I’m curious about is this: Is that “major trade agreement with the European Union” seen as an unalloyed good? Yanukovych was and is a cheap thug, no question. But we’ve seen “free trade” agreements elsewhere lead to catastrophe. Similarly, we’ve seen loans from the IMF impose “austerity” with catastrophic results. What’s your take on the various trade-offs?
Ruckus
@dr. luba:
It appears to be a mixed bag of maybe bad, maybe benign, maybe OK. I really wanted to see some of the guys work, not read his obit so no great loss but if it fell into the maybe bad, didn’t want people to suffer.
I forgot to add that I use noscript as well and maybe that is what triggered the page I saw as Steeplejack got a similar response. I don’t like pages that do malicious stuff with my info and try to do what is possible and reasonable to halt that. This may be a case, probably not bad, just a little too invasive.
Rugosa
@lou:
No discussion of libertarianism is complete without a reference to Bob the Angry Flower: http://cdn3.thomhartmann.com/sites/default/files/Atlas%20Shrugged%20Farce.jpg. (Sorry I couldn’t find a direct link – his archive is unsearchable.)
lou
@Gin & Tonic: Isn’t it?
I remember a driving tour we did of New England and when we left Vermont for New Hampshire, it was striking how you left a green and verdant place for ticky-tacky billboards, rough roads, and crappy strip malls. To me, the contrast between Vermont and New Hampshire was an excellent argument for regulation.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cervantes: Your block quote seems to contradict the comments from several people on this site suggesting a heavy fascist/antisemitic element in the protests.
Cervantes
@Ruckus:
You can look here.
Ruckus
For all of us trying to submit an age that conservatives have stopped emotional development at, can we all agree at least that they have stopped way, way too soon?
Not that I’m any great example btw. I feel that at my somewhat advanced physical age I have finally gotten to about where I should have been at 30. Which is a big improvement for me as I am pretty sure I was stuck at 15 for a few decades.
Cervantes
@Omnes Omnibus: You can read the complete item here.
(I assumed it had been linked here previously, sorry.)
Davis X. Machina
@Ruckus: I have a log-in and such, ’cause it’s the local paper, or one of them. So I’m already known.
@lou: Our governor Landslide LePage, has already weighed in on the issue. We just don’t have enough billboards. I don’t think he has enough votes. (The legislation was the capstone of a life’s work by a Republican legislator, Marion Fuller Brown)
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
There are few people whose demise I will celebrate. Palin is one of these.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cervantes: Interesting read. Thank you for the link.
dr. luba
@Cervantes: It never was about trade, it was always about Europe. The trade agreement was just a step towards closer ties to Europe, and would have forced the government to be more transparent, especially wrt its financial dealings.
The young generation is a post-Soviet generation. They have grown up in a relatively free, open society, and identify with the west, not with Russia. Through television, internet, and travel, they see how people live in the west, and they want that for themselves, economically and politically. They also see what is happening under Putin, with further repressions and more authoritarian rule. They don’t want that, and that is where Yanukovych was headed.
So it’s not primarily about economics. It’s about where Ukraine’s future lies–with a democratic Europe or with an authoritarian Russia.
Having said that, the economy in Ukraine is in tatters. Yanukovych and his “family” have stolen so much that the country is insolvent. Estimates are that about $15 billion a year were going into their pockets, which is about the same amount as the annual deficit. Ukrainians are used to economic suffering; if they must suffer, they prefer it be for a purpose, rather than just to line the pockets of thugs.
Also, too: Snyder has been doing a great job of reporting about Ukraine, matches much of what I hear from Ukraine. He has the background for it (author of Bloodlands) and goes beyond the facile “east-west divide” analysis you see so much of in the press.
? Martin
@Cervantes:
It was to the Ukrainians, if only as a symbolic rejection of Russia and for Europe. I don’t think the people cared nearly as much about the practical benefits and consequences of the deal, more about which major governing influence would fall over them – a democratic/socialist Europe, or a democratic but corrupt/thuggish Russia.
And it’s worth noting that the US had their mitts in this as well. Victoria Nuland’s ‘Fuck the EU’ comment that was leaked was our government helping to push the unrest along and then pick the next leader of Ukraine – and pick someone who was anti-Russia but more pro-US than pro-EU. Would the Ukrainians have preferred a US trade deal over an EU one? Well, we weren’t offering that as a consideration, but it seems clear we would have preferred that Ukraine not side with EU either.
It was probably a good economic deal for the Ukraine, though. They currently (uniquely) have a free trade deal with Russia, so Ukraine was in a position to take European goods imported without tariff and resell them across Russia. That’s a big problem for Russia, and a big opportunity for Ukraine. Russia winds up on the wrong side of a free trade deal. What bargaining power do they have with the EU over the import of gas and oil if Ukraine can buy it all without tariff and pipe it for cheap into Europe (half of Russia’s oil and gas pipelines go through Ukraine). So it was politically a bad deal for Ukraine in that it guaranteed to escalate tensions with Russia.
I suspect that the US was sensitive to that problem (after all, we weren’t going to directly benefit one way or another in this situation). Putin was putting the word out last year that this deal was very problematic for Russia. I’m sure in private it was even more strongly pressed. That might have been the reason behind our involvement. Or we might have just been trying to undermine EU. The EU is good for the US so long as they know to stay #2 on the planet. If they start reaching for the gold ring, we’re going to try and kick the chair out from under them. And that (either, or as well) may have been a motivation for us.
But I don’t think you can compare this free trade deal to ones like NAFTA where political tensions aren’t a serious variable.
Frankensteinbeck
@Cervantes:
I think the ‘Sarah Palin as whore’ rests mainly on her specifically selling her sex appeal. There is a popular theory that her popularity is primarily due to older conservative men lusting after her. I’m not sure I buy it, and still hate to use ‘whore’ as an insult when the job is so dangerous and badly treated in most of the world specifically because the women are considered inferior for doing it.
Cervantes
@Omnes Omnibus: A more recent piece by Snyder is here; and an older one is here. (Neither one requires a subscription.)
dr. luba
@Omnes Omnibus: This blog post of Snyder’s is good, too; a summary of the revolution, and why it is that, and not a coup d’etat as Moscow claims. Snyder says:
Davis X. Machina
@dr. luba:
This makes them prima-facie ineligible to apply for asylum in the US.
MikeJ
@? Martin:
It was to 45-55 percent of Ukrainians. .
dr. luba
@MikeJ:
???????
Do you have polling data I am unaware of?
Davis X. Machina
@? Martin:
That’s a delusional preference.
Who, absent fresh brain trauma, could consider a deal with the EU — contiguous with the Ukraine, and already a major trading partner — something the Ukrainians should reject, in preference to a deal with the US — different continent, and a miniscule (~$3.5 billion, both ways) trade relationship? (Comparable with the US-Hungary trade flow.)
hoodie
I’d say she’s best characterized as ripoff artist exploiting America’s political Alzheimer’s, with the infantilization more like that which occurs to patients with advanced dementia flirting with strangers and clutching dolls tightly to their breasts than anything a child does. The conservative movement lives in a haze of nostalgia for a time that really never existed the way they “remember” it, e.g., Ronald Reagan was not really the world historical figure they imagine, the heartland never was all that inspiring, etc. They mostly miss their youth and are frustrated by their lost ability to pretend that they control their environment. Somehow Palin fills that void by making them think they’re still sexy and in charge. I guess Putin fulfills a similar need in Russia, no wonder the affinity.
MikeJ
@dr. luba: The trade deal. Martin said it was seen as good by the Ukrainians. The protests weren’t the entire population of Ukraine against a couple of evil dictators. It was the losing side in what was possibly a crooked election overturning the result of that election. Millions of people in Ukraine supported the side that was driven from office.
Some have said that the election that put the pro Russia forces in office were crooked. If it was stolen, it was because it was close enough to steal. They stole (or not, I don’t know for sure) a 51-49 election, not a 80-20.
catclub
@IowaOldLady: Interesting.
So could Barack Obama, in 2017 become Speaker of the House – third in line, no election as VP candidate, then if the tow higher resign he becomes president again without breaking the election rule?
I think that Speaker of the House does not have to be a member.
Bill Arnold
@Cervantes:
Refreshing article, thanks. Couple of questions (to whoever has an opinion):
(1) What does this mean in the T. Snyder NYRB article?
(2) Along the same lines, how much does the Russian leadership believe their own propaganda, even while knowing that it’s, in part at least, a tactical tool? (And what sorts of resulting possible miscalculations can we expect from the Russian leadership?)
bago
Reminds me of this time I met a Palin donor at an after hours restaurant. I was hanging out with a stripper (as you do) and the look on her face when this guy started gushing about how he received a phone call from Palin after donating 3 grand to Sarah PAC was epic. In the industry, guys who carelessly toss money at cute girls who give them attention are known as whales, as they tend not to be too grabby, and are easier to entertain than a random grab-ass fratboy.
The difference being that the whale knows he’sa mark, but that’s what he’s there for. The Sarah PAC guy was a clueless empty suit defending the Alaska Permanent fund as some sort of non-socialist enterprise.
Long story short, my friend knew a sucker, and made sure to get his number.
shalimar
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: There is no way Zombie Reagan would govern as a RINO. Reagan was as far to the right as he could get in the 80s with a democratic congress. Put Zombie Reagan in charge post 9/11 instead of W and Zombie Meese would have used the NSA to put half of US women under 30 in prison for internet nudity.
dr. luba
@MikeJ: The election was in 2010, and the final margin was about 3.5%. Part of the reason that Yanukovych won and Tymoshenko lost was because Yushchenko decided to channel his inner Nader and urge people to vote for nobody. (Yushchenko, the sitting president, had gotten only 2% in the first round of elections). And yes, too, all the vote fraud.
Yanukovych’s popularity had fallen quite a bit since the 2010 election, which is why I wondered about your number. It should be kept in mind that Yanukovych had not run as opposing closer ties to the EU, and had even had a huge advertising campaign in 2012-2013 touting the virtues of closer ties. So many of his supporters were also supporters of closer EU ties.
dr. luba
@Davis X. Machina: My impression of the “Fuck the EU” statement was that the EU was not being helpful in trying to find a political settlement to the unrest. It had nothing to do with trade deals.
Bill Arnold
@Cervantes:
Thanks for the other two links. T. Snyder has some interesting comments about Russian propaganda as aspirational and so not necessarily currently factual. Scary.
This is a stretch, even with the accompanying photo.
Cervantes
@dr. luba:
My impression was stated here; I’ll re-state:
dr. luba
@Cervantes: Agree with you. Was disagreeing with Davis, who seemed to think it was only about a trade deal.
dr. luba
@Bill Arnold:
The house, in an of itself, is only moderately horrible. It has to be viewed in the context of its grounds and interior decor. I mean, who doesn’t build a small lake with a galleon in it next to the house? Who doesn’t have horse statues with landscapes painted on them? Who doesn’t use a two kilo solid gold loaf of bread as a paperweight? Who doesn’t create fake roman ruins, and decorate in gilded bordello style?
Cervantes
@Bill Arnold:
Here’s that quotation in context:
That was Dmitry Kiselyov on his program News of the Week on December 8 — the day before it was announced that he would be leading Putin’s new propaganda arm, Rossia Segodnya.
Cervantes
@shalimar:
It really pains me to point out that Ed Meese is still alive.
Or perhaps we can say he’s as much a zombie now as he ever was.
? Martin
@Davis X. Machina: I think you misunderstand. We didn’t offer a trade deal because, as you note, it didn’t make sense to have one. But there are two reasons to oppose one with the EU (without necessarily endorsing one with Russia):
1) It makes the EU a stronger trade partner for other nations relative to the US – something we are clearly concerned about.
2) Russia had already broadcast that the deal could destabilized the region, that Russia would view it as a significant threat to their economy.
This needn’t be an either/or situation. Our preference may have been neither, or both. For example, a smaller trade deal less flavorous to the EU (and possibly to Ukraine as well, at least in economic terms) that was less of a threat to Russia, if only to keep the peace. At the same time, the deal with Russia wasn’t desirable either. We may simply have preferred that Ukraine remain somewhat more independent trade-wise.
Cervantes
@Frankensteinbeck:
My approach to Palin is to ignore her as much as possible.
(And yes, I do find her Mistress Minx routine a little tiresome — “a perfect Coquet, very affected, and something old” — not that she’s directing it at me, of course.)
Re the word “whore”: I find it’s used unfairly so I rarely use it.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cervantes:
Meese really is a piece of work. Vile creature.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: Ed Meese is one of the few people who can make John Ashcroft look good by comparison.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Ahh, stinky shit and really stinky shit.
The Golux
For my money, “ignorant, two-wheeled bilewagon” is enough to put Pierce in the blogging hall of fame, if ever one were to be created.
Cervantes
@dr. luba: Thanks for your response. Comments (point of agreement) and questions follow.
I agree. And my question is not whether Ukraine should look towards (1) Russia or (2) the West. It is about the perceived or expected consequences of seeking membership in “the West.”
I agree with the last sentence.
When you call those young people “a post-Soviet generation,” are you saying they do not remember “shock therapy” or know what it entailed? Should they be apprehensive about Western overtures?
Sure, but as with many choices, there are consequences. Submitting oneself to the strictures of “neo-liberal economics” is probably not something that should happen by accident.
Is it your view (and the view of Ukrainians you know) that if Ukraine is to join the West, economic suffering in the name of austerity is inevitable? Or maybe even advisable?
Yes.
Thanks again.
Cervantes
@? Martin:
Thanks for your comments.
Well, you may be right about all that, but here’s a concern: Economic “reform” required by the likes of the IMF (via the EU) imposes a lot of pain on those people who can least bear it. Even in relatively stable systems, which Ukraine evidently is not, this pain can cause social chaos to a dangerous extent, an invitation to disaster.