The 17-month-old daughter of a North Carolina parenting columnist is expected to recover after her 3-year-old brother shot her with his father’s gun.
Cleveland County Sheriff’s Capt. Joel Shores said that 911 dispatchers received reports that a child had suffered a gunshot wound at around 11:30 a.m. on Thursday morning, according to the Gaston Gazette.
Justin Carper, who is a youth church leader and writes an unpaid parenting column for the Shelby Star, said that he never imagined that his son could have climbed on a stool and and then taken the gun from a “secret compartment” on top of his dresser.
The good news is that it sounds like the kid is going to live. Of course, this shithead is treating an act caused by his abject stupidity and irresponsibility as still more evidence that Baby Jesus smiles on us all:
Carper called it a “miracle” when the girl was able to use the injured arm to feed herself in the hospital later that night.
“It went through the top of her shoulder,” he explained to the Gaston Gazette. “She was feeding herself using that shoulder, using that arm. The bullet went straight through. You wouldn’t even know. Doctor after doctor have told us that there’s nowhere else the bullet could have gone that would have ended up with this story.”
If you want me to believe in miracles, let me know when thick-headed God botherers like Justin Carper lock up their fucking guns. When that day comes, I’ll be happy to treat a newfound Christian love of gun safety as a clear sign of divine intercession, declare myself born again, and undergo the sacred rite of full immersion baptism. But I’m not holding my breath waiting for that glorious day, because as this case clearly shows, God might be able to keep a 3 year-old from blowing his baby sister’s brains out, but He can’t get an idiot like Reverend Carper to buy a gun safe or a trigger lock.
(via)
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
It’s just depressing, and infuriating. I got nothing.
The Other Bob
I am sure prosecutors will say the family suffered enough and not prosecute. Seems like prosucutors need less authroity to make these calls.
muricafukyea
Spoiler alert,
Olympic stadium torch was lit by Putin taking out a flame thrower and setting a rounded up gay on fire. Teh gay was then catapulted up into the torch bowl. Quite spectacular.
LanceThruster
Praise Jeebus!
We’re all very lucky the Super Bowl was over because sometimes God gets distracted fine-tuning the point spread.
Thor Heyerdahl
@muricafukyea: That’s about the most coherent thing I’ve seen you ever post here.
c u n d gulag
Hold on there!
In all fairness, maybe it WAS a miracle!
After all, now that the Superb Own is over, God and Jesus might actually have some more time to help defenseless childr…
Oh, yeah – never mind.
The NBA’s season is around the mid-point.
College BB’s getting ready for March Madness.
The Olympics are getting into full swing.
And Spring Training’s right around the corner.
Ok. So, since God and Jesus are so obsessed with sports, maybe it was a “miracle” of physics.
Or, maybe just dumb luck – emphasis on the DUMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
kc
“God, should I keep a loaded handgun in my house with young children? Just give me a sign, God. Any little sign . . .”
Mandalay
Speaking of gun nuts, one of the kids in the car in the Florida “rap music too loud” murder testified this morning…..
I know it’s Florida, but I still can’t see how this murdering asshole can walk.
kc
@The Other Bob:
In South Carolina, parents will be prosecuted if their toddlers shoot themselves with the parents’ loaded gun. If the parents are black, that is. If they’re white, well, it was an unfortunate freak accident.
OzarkHillbilly
Gun safes are for godless heathen gun owners like me. All the rest trust in Jesus. I just got done putting them up in preparation of my granddaughters impending visit this wkend.
maximiliano furtive, formerly known as dr. bloor
@Mandalay:
They’ll come up with something, I’m sure.
Mandalay
@kc:
“Tragedy” is the preferred term when white kids die.
Mnemosyne
@Mandalay:
Because the only thing Dunn has to prove in a Florida court is that he, personally, felt threatened. Not that it was a reasonable fear, or that a reasonable person in the same position would have felt threatened, but that he felt threatened in that moment.
That’s why he’s going to get off, just like Zimmerman did. It’s how Florida law is set up.
jibeaux
Clay Aiken’s running against a useless lady who left her unlocked-up guns in her unlocked garage where they got liberated for freedom, so our collective cup is not exactly runnething over with brains.
voncey
@kc: It was God’s warning shot.
feebog
In the meantime, hundreds of children die every from these kind of “accidents” every year. This moron was fortunate enough to have his child live. Lots of other families aren’t so lucky. They all share one trait in common; stupidity.
LanceThruster
@kc:
“Will of God” even.
jl
@maximiliano furtive, formerly known as dr. bloor:
” Gun safes are for godless heathen gun owners like me. ”
Gun safes are commie. I have gun fancier (I think ‘nut’ is a better word, but I try to be civil) kin in NV, they keep their guns in a gun safe, that kind of reminds me of a mini Fort Knox. They belong to the DemocRAT party. Case closed.
They also do not believe roaring around with a loaded gun is not the optimal approach to initial investigations of sundry noises and other minor oddesses observed on their property. Which is unChristian, as well as commie.
The story in the post is terrible, and I’m glad the infant will recover.
I suppose the NRA will say the best answer to these tragedies is to enforce the laws, dammit, and charge the 3 year-old as an adult.
Craig
Every gun range and every gun show in central Florida I’ve been to requires you to unload your weapon before entering. At the gun shows, someone at the entrance takes your firearm and puts a tie wrap through the receiver so you have to cut the tie wrap to rack a round in the chamber.
Which is why I shake my head when gun owners complain about businesses that don’t allow concealed carry on their premises.
Amir Khalid
@The Other Bob:
The Sheriff’s Department is already hinting to them that they might want to consider it. From The Raw Story:
Paul in KY
Circumstance is truly an amazing thing.
Glad the little girl is OK.
LanceThruster
@voncey:
Saw a poster mention this Steven Wright joke a while back.
When two airplanes almost collide why do they call it a near miss? It sounds like a near hit to me!
jrg
Well, in his defense, it is pretty inconceivable that a three-year-old might climb up on a stool.
LanceThruster
@Amir Khalid:
They also let kids who murder their parents go because it’s so sad that they’re now orphans.
Ruckus
@jl:
Wrong, wrong, wrong. The NRA will answer that if the 17 month old had had her own gun, this would never have happened.
Remember, it’s always about selling more guns. Always.
shelly
Hey, just realized it’s been a while since we’ve heard of some Zimmerman screw-up
LanceThruster
@kc:
Dear Lord: The gods have been good to me. For the first time in my life, everything is absolutely perfect just the way it is. So here’s the deal: You freeze everything the way it is, and I won’t ask for anything more. If that is OK, please give me absolutely no sign. OK, deal. In gratitude, I present you this offering of cookies and milk. If you want me to eat them for you, give me no sign. Thy will be done.
~ Homer Simpson
Calouste
@Amir Khalid:
Sounds like the girl doesn’t count.
So what if the parents “forget” to strap a kid in a safety seat and it gets injured? Do they also “have been punished enough already”?
Paul in KY
@jl: If the 17 month old had been armed, well that’d be a different story (says NRA).
OzarkHillbilly
@kc: Unless it was a black person holding/owning the gun.
LanceThruster
@jrg:
No one could have anticipated…
Cervantes
@jibeaux: “runnething over”
Love it.
Villago Delenda Est
The cretinous stoopid.
IT BURNS!
OzarkHillbilly
@shelly: Don’t worry, it will be on Pay per View. He’s going to climb into a boxing ring with a black guy.
raven
@Thor Heyerdahl: this
PurpleGirl
From the story:
“Regardless of the outcome, the parents have been punished more than any criminal justice system can do to them by this happening.”
No, the father needs to experience some jail time, as an encouragement to think things through.
The stupidity of many people burns, burns with the white hot heat of a thousand suns.
Amir Khalid
@shelly:
Haven’t you heard? The art thing didn’t pan out — he was caught plagiarising from a news photo — so now he’s fighting DMX in a “celebrity” boxing match.
balconesfault
Ummm … how about if the bullet had missed altogether?
OK – that wouldn’t have been as good a story, admittedly.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@LanceThruster:
Carlin had a better take on that old joke, following up with:
“A COLLISION is a near miss! ‘Oh look, dey nearly missed!’ ‘Yeah…but not quite!!’ Morbid but funny.
In any case…gun fetishism…it just exhausts me now, for just how impenetrable and unassailable it is these days.
Mandalay
@Ruckus:
This, a million times over.
If you hear a statement from the NRA that causes you to wonder how any sane person could make such an outrageous claim, consider whether that statement might result in increased gun sales. There aren’t many crazy statements coming from the NRA if you follow that approach.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un
amiralenfant pour encourager les autres. Bet that 17-month-old grows up to be the most well-behaved young lady in East Jesus, so it was all worth it.balconesfault
BTW – this is why I favor manditory insurance policies for gun ownership.
Too many times stupid stuff like this happens, and the hospital or the state is left footing the bill.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: I hate the fucking SYG law, but that’s an inaccurate description of it. The “reasonable person” standard does apply; what’s missing from SYG that is present in more sane self-defense laws is the “duty to retreat.” I predicted (accurately) that Zimmerman would walk. I am just as certain Dunn will be convicted.
_PK_
There are so many of these types of gun accidents that every now and then random chance will produce one of these so called miracles.
Villago Delenda Est
@jrg:
My mind reels with quotations from The Princess Bride.
jl
@Ruckus:
” The NRA will answer that if the 17 month old had had her own gun, this would never have happened. Remember, it’s always about selling more guns. Always.”
Thank you for correcting me. I have said that so many times in comments, I have no excuse. I wasn’t thinking. My apologies.
eric
remember, you cant have freedom with out cracking a few eggs and what are children but fertilized eggs. praise jeebus and god bless america
Glocksman
Imagine the reaction if the kid had opened the ‘secret compartment’ and found the good Reverend’s porn stash.
Then again, he probably keeps that locked up.
Unlike his guns.
Idiot.
Violet
Insurance companies need to get involved. Gun owners cost more money. They have a higher rate off injury by gun in their household and the gun can also damage property. Where are the homeowners insurance companies using actuarial tables to increase rates on gun owners?
taylormattd
Ugh
eric
@Violet: i wonder if we could file a class action lawsuit against gun manufacturers for not making their products safer or properly disclosing the risk. The suit would be along the lines of the tobacco cases where it caused more government / tax money to be spent on public health. or some such theory….
Villago Delenda Est
The problem with the insurance thing is no competent insurer would ever underwrite a policy for a gun fetishist, knowing that they are inherently a higher risk, because they’re such stupid idiots.
OzarkHillbilly
@Glocksman: Nah… he keeps that under his wife’s pillow so she can study up after he’s fallen asleep.
Bill
@Villago Delenda Est: The insurance would be available. It’s always available. The premium would be very high though. As it should be.
SatanicPanic
@eric: Congress passed a law making that impossible.
PurpleGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: Do you think that’s a problem? The Princess Bride is an excellent source for quotes.
Mandalay
@Betty Cracker:
Right. IANAL, but I don’t see how SYG even applies when Dunn walked away from the kid’s car back to his own car, but then chose to return to the kid’s car with his gun, and then fired (and then drove off, and did not contact the police).
The fact that the kids did not have a gun, or anything that even looked like a gun, is going to be a big problem for Dunn’s lawyer.
Villago Delenda Est
@PurpleGirl:
No, not a problem…just that nearly every time I see the word “inconceivable” I hear Wallace Shawn’s voice.
Roger Moore
@Mandalay:
The “victim” is the wrong race, therefore inherently threatening and any reasonable (i.e. white) person would have been in fear for his life.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mandalay:
The kids were blah. Dunn is white. You do the math.
patrick II
I had a work friend who lost his young nephew due to a self-inflicted shotgun wound. My friend’s brother kept his loaded shotgun in the front closet where his son found it and accidentally shot himself. The now ex-father says “It was God’s will” that he lost his only son. The brothers don’t speak anymore.
doug r
@muricafukyea: My wife points out that is the true meaning of faggot.
jl
Some things in this story are a little too vague.
Is there a more precise term for this ‘secret compartment’ on top of the dresser? The author of the story might inquire whether certain arcane terms of art used by normal people, such as ‘drawer’ or ‘cigar box’, or ‘manila folder’ might be appropriate?
Why was it not a miracle that the infant was not killed by the gunfire but only received an apparently minor wound, but it was a miracle that she could use the arm to feed herself?
Enquiring minds want to know.
Villago Delenda Est
@patrick II:
I really have had it up to here with the invisible sky buddy taking the credit for every good thing and the blame for every bad thing that stupid humans seek to absolve themselves of responsibility for.
Cervantes
@Calouste:
Remember the report issued by a UN committee the other day telling us all what the Vatican should do to improve the situation of children? It criticized the Church, rightly; and we did, too.
The reporting requirement stems from the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. This Convention entered into force in 1990 because the vast majority of the world’s governments signed and ratified it immediately. It was signed by the Clinton Administration in 1995, nearly twenty years ago. It has still not been ratified by the US Senate.
Bear in mind, there are three UN member states that have not yet ratified the Convention. Somalia announced last year it that is planning to ratify it (and may already have done so by now, I have not checked); and South Sudan — a country that’s two years old — has already passed the relevant legislation to ratify.
That leaves us, one nation standing bravely alone, unwilling to recognize minimal rights of our kids; or, indeed, anyone’s kids.
Ask yourself why.
Roger Moore
@Amir Khalid:
Bullshit. I don’t know if it would be the best thing for the kids to be taken away from their parents, but at the very least the parents should be on probation and unable to own guns until their kids are old enough to move away from home.
OzarkHillbilly
@Violet: They may already be doing that. I am quite sure my homeowners runs a not insignificant amount higher than a policy for a similar home in town. Many reasons for this, #1 being response times for fire (I live in a FD that uses volunteer firemen), another being lack of police patrols (I have never seen a cop car within 15 miles of my place. Would not surprise me in the least if they charge more on the basis of gun ownership (they know we do, we declare it in our property listing) as well they should.
As far as I know, there is no requirement for liability coverage for anyone with CCW, which is really stupid.
SiubhanDuinne
@jl:
Fixed for what the NRA would actually say.
ETA: Oops, Ruckus got to the same place, much earlier. I really should learn to read every comment before putting in my own oar.
patrick II
@Betty Cracker:
Betty,
There is a difference between “a reasonable person” feeling threatened and any unique individual being in “reasonably fear”. That ambiguity is in the law purposely to lower the standard of allowable shooting. If you feel fear, without being held to the standard of a “reasonable person”, you can shoot. It is reasonable that the coward Zimmerman felt fear, it is not reasonable that a reasonable person would.
However, I agree that Mr. Dunn will not get off. He didn’t feel fear, he felt anger.
eric
@SatanicPanic: that looks like negligence protection. i am thinking of a deceptive practices claim where the risks are not properly disclosed or something along those lines
PurpleGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: LOL
Roger Moore
@eric:
I think you got that backward: fertilized eggs are children. Once they’re born, though, they’re on their own. If they happen to be shot because their parents can’t properly secure their guns, tough luck; only the unborn deserve society’s protection.
MomSense
@Villago Delenda Est:
So glad I’m not the only one reading
as incontheivable.
Betty Cracker
@SiubhanDuinne: The only thing that can stop a bad child with a gun is a good child with a gun. So buy more guns!
MomSense
@Villago Delenda Est:
One person’s problem is another person’s solution.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
California doesn’t have a duty to retreat, either, and AFAIK has never had one. Here’s an article that explains the difference between California’s and Florida’s duty to retreat better than I’m doing. It boils down to the jury instructions and the “reasonable person.” It seems like a very small and subtle difference, but it’s the difference between Dunn going to prison and Dunn walking free. With the way Florida law is set up, the jury isn’t going to have much of a choice but to set him free.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bill:
The catch is making the insurance mandatory for gun ownership. That will NEVER fly, the NRA and their masters, the merchants of death, would fight any such effort tooth and nail. If not by registering a .50 cal on the target first.
eric
@Roger Moore: so does this mean that women should be required to insert a small firearm so that the unborn can readily protect itself?
Nutella
Don’t call Carper an idiot for failing to lock up his guns in a house full of small children. He’s not stupid. He’s vicious.
Just like the Republican politicos who refused Medicaid expansion for the poor citizens of their state because they hate Obama, this guy refuses to behave like an adult because he loves guns and hates libs.
That’s vicious.
Anita Paul
Young boy (nine year old) in Boston shot accidently by older brother 14 yrs old today. Young child died.
Cervantes
@Nutella: To be fair: he could be both.
Churchlady320
Jesus had nothing to do with it either way. If there is a sentient God, I suspect he/she/it is wondering why brains were part of the human package when clearly they go unused.
Mnemosyne
@Villago Delenda Est:
As far as I can tell, it’s more like, Dunn was afraid of them because they were black, so it was reasonable for him to defend himself even though it turned out they weren’t armed.
I really hope I’m wrong, but after reading a lot of articles after the Zimmerman case, I think Dunn walks, because the jury will decide he had a reasonable belief that he was in danger.
Amir Khalid
@Roger Moore:
I agree. But here, the sheriff’s department actually believes that the parents have been punished enough, and is hinting that prosecutors shouldn’t file charges. I don’t know what can be done when law enforcement itself decides to defy common sense and the law.
jl
@Roger Moore:
” I think you got that backward: fertilized eggs are children. Once they’re born, though, they’re on their own. ”
Once you are born, you are a slut or a punk, even if only prospectively. Unless you meet certain informal criteria and community standards, as determined by certain self-appointed communities.
Villago Delenda Est
@Amir Khalid:
Happens all over the US, I fear. LEOs tend to be sympathetic to the gun fetishists, and cut them all sorts of slack they’d never even consider in other cases. It always helps if the family in question is white, too.
Bill
@Villago Delenda Est: I agree with this. We aren’t going to see mandatory liability insurance for gun owners any time soon. But it would go one hell of a long way toward solving the insane gun culture we have right now.
If the law did require it, insurers would sell it though. At a high price.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mnemosyne:
Because he was the only one armed in the entire incident.
The logic is impeccable. Those thugs would have overwhelmed him even though he was the only one armed.
Right. Sure.
Gawdawlmitey, this country is fucked up.
pseudonymous in nc
So, does this fuckwit get to keep his Responsible Gun Owner® card because Jesus, or is he now a Never Was A Responsible Gun Owner In The First Place So Shut Up?
Villago Delenda Est
@pseudonymous in nc:
“Responsible gun owner” is looking more and more like an oxymoron on the scale of “military intelligence” and “corporate responsibility”.
Not to mention “jumbo shrimp”.
schrodinger's cat
Are you sure it was Jeebus, may be it was the Ceiling Dog.
Another Holocene Human
@c u n d gulag: Jesus said “love your neighbor” but I guess he didn’t mean the rival sports team.
It’s a good thing the Good Samaritan didn’t find out that Jew lying on the highway whose life he saved was a fan of Jericho Team (Chariot) Racing or who knows how that story would have ended.
Villago Delenda Est
@Another Holocene Human:
I don’t think in Seattle there is a greater sin than to be a 49er fan.
Likewise, in San Francisco, there is probably no greater sin than to be a Seahawk fan.
It’s the will of the Gods that this be the way it is.
However, we can all agree, Seahawk and 49er fans alike, that Pittsburgh sucks!
Betty Cracker
@patrick II: Huh. That’s the first time I’ve heard it explained that way. I’m not a lawyer, but it seems absurd to ask jurors to interpret what’s “reasonable” for each unique individual — independent of common standards of reasonableness.
At any rate, like you, I’m certain Dunn will go to jail. The jury in the Martin case had Zimmerman’s injuries to hang their acquittal on and vague, conflicting witness testimony. Dunn left multiple witnesses behind and fled the scene. He’ll be convicted.
Cervantes
@Another Holocene Human:
George Orwell:
? Martin
@Mandalay:
Black kid talked to him, accosted him with loud black music. Because he has a right to be racist, he reasonably believed they were about to pull out MAC 10s and gun him down.
And that’s likely where the jury will secretly be – do Floridians have the right to be racist?
Another Holocene Human
@Villago Delenda Est: If the family is black the child is some sort of depraved supercriminal who can never be reformed and should be tried as an adult. Executed, actually, but SCOTUS told them ixnay on the ildchay executions-yay.
patrick II
@Betty Cracker:
To the NRA that absurdity is a feature, not a bug.
pseudonymous in nc
@Amir Khalid:
For fuck’s sake: the reason you prosecute in cases like this is to make the suggestion to other fucking Freedom Bufords that they might want to lock up their fucking guns.
Kay
Whatever happened to trigger locks? Police here used to pass them out. He has the gun in a “secret compartment” anyway, so why not one more step when he gets ready to shoot the next person who asks for directions?
Of course, we don’t know that it was in the secret compartment. The adult may have just dropped it on top of a dryer in the garage, like happened here when a 14 year old shot and killed his 15 year old friend. They picked the gun up off the dryer while they were waiting for the school bus. We know it was dropped on the dryer because one of the two kids survived, and is older than 3 so could tell the story. The adult was convicted of a misdemeanor.
Amir Khalid
@pseudonymous in nc:
You’d think the cops of all people would know that, but noooo …
Villago Delenda Est
@patrick II:
Exactly. What is “reasonable” to most NRA members is “batshit insane” to me.
But then again, I used to tote around military grade firearms for a living, what the fuck do I know?
Another Holocene Human
Can you believe, I used to think when the cops/newspaper claimed some kid was a heartless criminal that they were experts and using sound judgment and I actually took these pronouncements semi-seriously?! I mean, if the kid was under 12 I was a bit skeptical because my religion didn’t think children that age could really make serious decisions, and below 9 was below “age of reason”. (I don’t look to my former church for child psychology advice any more, but still.) I mean, wow, the racism that used to be wrapped up in these stories about poor, disadvantaged youth. I feel like such a sucker.
andy
Justin Carper writes a parenting column- I would recommend all juicers to drop by and leave a little advice.
Another Holocene Human
Jury reform is on the agenda in Tallahassee this year. I am hopeful but certainly not counting on anything. Oh, and NRA is pushing for more nonsense, as per usual.
http://gaveltogavel.us/2014/02/03/florida-senate-committee-to-debate-6-person-criminal-juries-other-states-with-small-criminal-juries-show-no-movement-to-change/
ET
I am glad that child was killed because of parental stupidity and carelessness.
Another Holocene Human
@andy: I’ll pass. I am suddenly reminded, however, that Orson Scott Card has world’s most Freudian column running in a local NC paper. (oh just google it and find out)
elaine benis
Another responsible gun owner:
Villago Delenda Est
It seems that Allen West is behind on the mortgage, because I’m seeing a barrage of ads asking people to help him fight the Godless Radical Liberals and that Obama dude…and get his mortgage up to date.
sharl
@pseudonymous in nc:
I like this very much, and shall now steal it, for the cause of FREEDOM!!!!1!eleventy
Villago Delenda Est
@elaine benis:
The insanity is found even deep in the Seattle-Tacoma metro area, not just out in the hinterlands around Roy.
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
How was he to know they weren’t armed? They were a gang of teenage thugs, so any
white bigotreasonable person would assume they were armed to the teeth and act accordingly.Another Holocene Human
@pseudonymous in nc: You can tell it’s Gun Derangement Syndrome because it’s just come out that there have been numerous exonerations (and who knows how many cases still being fought) in the last few years where it was ultimately determined that no crime had been committed. An example would be an accidental fire erroneously labeled arson, as happened in Texas. Yet in this case there’s obvious negligence and harm but the fuzz are hemming and hawing.
Betty Cracker
@patrick II: Okay, here’s the passage from the Zimmerman jury instructions that led me to believe the jurors were supposed to apply a standard that went beyond what Zimmerman’s pea-brain could process as “reasonable:”
I’m not a lawyer, but to me that sounds like the standard is higher than what each individual perceives as “reasonable.”
Yatsuno
@Thor Heyerdahl: Worst part: he’s your countryman.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kay:
Trigger locks would deprive you of a half a second in a duel with some wild home invader.
The entire justification for massive armament in the home is that you need to have locked and loaded weapons at the ready, easily accessible, to fend off the 100% chance that some crazed criminal types (invariably with melanin surpluses) will invade your home and try to take your big screen TV and your daughter. Trigger locks would inevitably interfere with your home defense plans.
So what if your 13 year old finds the weapon and starts playing with it with his buddies and it goes off and a round is lodged in the chest of one of them and he dies in the hospital?
Another Holocene Human
@Villago Delenda Est: Can’t confirm that, but found this tidbit on West’s congressional voting record really fast:
“Voted YES on terminating the Home Affordable mortgage Program. (Mar 2011) “
Ruckus
@jl:
No worries.
We all slip up from time to time. As long as your infant child doesn’t get shot with a gun you left accessible, you get a pass. At least this time.
elaine benis
@Villago Delenda Est: Yep.
Honest to God, I feel safer in Mexico than I do here.
Ruckus
@SiubhanDuinne:
It’s a big boat. We have room for lots of oars. Like one of those roman slave ships, lots of oars and all pulling in slightly different directions.
Kay
@Villago Delenda Est:
I don’t think you’re competent or trained with the gun if you can’t get the trigger lock off fast enough. There has to some demands made of these people. It’s such a low bar.
They used to pass out things that looked like sturdy zip ties here, except bright orange. We called them “trigger locks” and that’s how they were intended to be used.
I read a Florida case where the shooter was a police officer and he had a locking holster for his work weapon. Part of the case revolved around whether an untrained person could figure out how to get the gun out of the holster, because it was difficult unless you knew how to do it and had practiced with it. The police officer claimed his GF had shot herself, which is why the locking holster was at issue. If police can have a locking holster, parents can have a trigger lock.
cckids
@jrg:
Christ. I know you’re snarking, but my daughter could climb before she could walk. At 3 years old, she freaked our babysitter into quitting because, during a game of hide & seek, she climbed on top of our refrigerator & rearranged the cereal boxes again so they hid her.
A dresser? Pffft. Amateur.
Edit to add: Plus, “secret compartment”? Please. Probably a box, if that.
Another Holocene Human
@Villago Delenda Est: Sounds exactly like the rationale for not wearing a seatbelt–“It’ll trap me in the car for precious seconds if I crash and the engine catches on fire!”
(I understand that seatbelts don’t fit some individuals; I’m talking about the generally non-pregnant, average for male sized males that seatbelts were designed to fit who formed the visible and outspoken constituency against primary seatbelt laws when I was growing up.)
I don’t suppose I need to post seatbelt/non-seatbelt mortality tables here. They are ugly.
Ruckus
@Cervantes:
Agree.
Just from the evidence presented here I’d say you can’t rule out stupidity. So vicious may apply but I’d go with stupidly vicious. A fun combination for sure.
Skerry
@andy: thanks for the link. I sent him a nice little note.
muddy
@Villago Delenda Est: I know some people with walls covered in guns. Mind you they need a lot of firepower, because of course people want to come in here and steal these guns now! Um. I was scolded for taking the wrong seat on the couch. That’s where the patriarch sits with a handgun in a holster shoved down in there. It’s for when someone suddenly comes erupting through the door I suppose, he can pick them off in one smooth move.
It’s a wee shack on top of a mountain by itself. It has a long steep loud gravel driveway coming up from the dirt road. There is a long walk up various stairs, gravel paths in the approach from the drive. Then across the rickety porch, then open the storm door, then erupt through the door, SURPRISE!
Villago Delenda Est
@Another Holocene Human:
The really important thing here is the rubes are buying more firearms and enhancing the balance sheets of the merchants of death, after all.
Villago Delenda Est
@muddy:
Cripes. They’re in a prime defensive position where a single shotgun would suffice to defend the place, yet they still need an arsenal, because despite the fact that they’ve got the high ground with excellent sightlines to deter any invader, well, they still might get through and get to that couch.
OK, my head is hurting too much from all of this. Need to lay down and take a rest.
Glocksman
@Betty Cracker:
I’m not a lawyer either, but Wikipedia had this to say about what constitutes a ‘reasonable person’
Most communities would hold that walking away and then coming back with a gun and shooting a guy in a car isn’t reasonable.
His actions before, during, and after the shooting just scream that the ‘I saw a shotgun’ bit was made up in order to save his ass.
Let’s put it this way, if I wound up having to shoot someone, my first reaction would probably be to break down on the spot.
Or at least call the cops.
Not play the sociopath and drive away as if nothing happened.
Unless there are major facts that we don’t know about, if Dunn walks it’s not because of the failure of the reasonable person standard or even Florida’s SYG law.
muddy
@Villago Delenda Est: I think the thing is that they want the arsenal just cuz Constitution and you don’t tell me, libtards. But then there is this massive display of weaponry, excuse me, “investments”, which needs to be protected.
I said the gun in the couch was because he’s a lazy fucker who doesn’t get off his ass to do anything, even repel a home invader. It occurs to me that the main reason he won’t work (aside from the lazy) is that he would have to leave his preciouses unattended all day.
John T
People have weird ideas about “miracles” and luck. Like telling a cancer survivor or a car crash survivor that they are “lucky” to have come out alive. No, if they were lucky they never would have gotten cancer or crashed their car in the first place.
Amir Khalid
@muddy:
When you pointed out that they have only enough hands to hold one gun at a time, what did they say?
jl
@Villago Delenda Est:
” Likewise, in San Francisco, there is probably no greater sin than to be a Seahawk fan. ”
I live in SF, and I like the idea of have the Seahens being the most feared rival, and our Great Satan.
I was even going to root for the Seachickies out of Left Coast regional pride, until I saw that they were going to be quite rude in pounding the Broncos into the ground.
I even like Sherman, though I think he has defensive position football player psych issues around game time. I wish him to be utterly defeated and humiliated and disgraced only when he plays the Niners.
muddy
@Amir Khalid: They are each special snowflakes, and are precious in their own right. Would you tell people they could only have one child, like the godless commies in China?
Besides, when they need to stand up to the government they will need them all.
? Martin
@Betty Cracker:
Is a reasonably cautious and prudent person also assumed to be racist? If so, then Zimmerman acted appropriately, as did Dunn.
cckids
@Villago Delenda Est:
Oh, I don’t know. Wasn’t there a sidewalk nearby? QED, everyone was armed.
Glocksman
@Kay:
For safety reasons (disengaging some types of lock can trigger the gun) you aren’t supposed to use trigger locks with any loaded firearm.
That said, what about a damn safe?
If you have kids in the home, buy a damn $100 safe and lock the gun up.
jl
One of my nuttiest teabagger relatives keeps a pistol in very safe ‘secret’ place. It is under a bi picture book on the end table next to his favorite comfy recliner chair. The plan is that when Evil Doers arrive, he will hold them off with that cleverly hidden pistol, within reach and at the ready, until he can get to his armory safely stored in a linen closet guarded by a flimsy door.
I hope nothing goes wrong with his clever plan.
bemused
@kc:
That’s brilliant.
Mandalay
@Glocksman:
Exactly so. Dunn might have had some kind of argument if he had his gun with him when he first went over to the other car, and fired after claiming to have seen someone in the car with a gun. But that isn’t what happened.
He chose to return to his car to get his gun, and then return to the other car, even though he was in no danger, and nobody else had a gun.
He’s fucked.
Trollhattan
Among things that nah, gunna, happen, I’d like to see child protective services remove the children from this obviously dangerous home environment. Let the parents shoot it out, by themselves.
Trollhattan
@jl: The home invasion is the gun fondlers’ secret rape fantasy, isn’t it?
bemused
At the height of gun nut buying sprees, there was a story in the Mpls paper about a guy who bought a gun for the first time. His wife wasn’t crazy about the idea but relented when he also bought a gun safe. They have kids. What killed me is that the guy was in a front page photo along with the article holding his gun in their bedroom where the gun safe is. His name and the name of the town he lives in was in the article. Not too bright.
muddy
@Trollhattan: Except they really want it to happen. Or they think they do at least.
Glocksman
@jl:
Hmm…
jl
@Glocksman:
“It is under a BIG picture book”
A very patriotic picture book. Of American patriotic things. You pervert.
I am having ‘W’P says you can’t edit your own comment’ issues, thank you very much. And I always have to edit, because I am a careless slob.
muddy
@Glocksman: Shh! It’s a secret!
Cain
@muddy:
It won’t work.. those kind of skills actually take training and work to learn.
patrick II
@Betty Cracker:
Here is the quote from the Florida statute you cited earlier:
Notice the difference between that and the jury instruction. I don’t know why the jury was instructed differently, but after reading an interview with the the lady gun nut who drove the decision in the jury room it is pretty clear that she was driven by the statute and not the instruction. I even wonder if the jury instruction could have been reason for appeal if held in conflict with the clear language of the statute had Zimmerman been found guilty.
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
I doubt the biggest worry is complete strangers. It doesn’t matter how remote and defensible your residence is if you’re worried about your family and house guests.
Glocksman
@patrick II:
Not possible as that would be a clear violation of the fifth amendment prohibiting double jeopardy.
muddy
@Cain: There’s plenty of practice with the guns themselves out of doors. For all I know he spends time every day practicing pulling the silly thing out of the couch. I wouldn’t be at all surprised. You can do that while you sit there smoking pot, no problem.
ETA: damn it now I can see him doing it in my mind’s eye, thanks a lot
Betty Cracker
@patrick II: Good question. I have no idea.
Roger Moore
@Glocksman:
I think you’re misunderstanding either the comment or the 5th Amendment. Patrick II is saying that if Zimmerman had been convicted, he might have been able to appeal the conviction successfully on the grounds that the jury instructions were not in agreement with the law. There is never a 5th Amendment problem with a defendant appealing a conviction; the double jeopardy clause only applies to somebody being charged again for the same crime after being acquitted.
Mandalay
Michael Dunn’s lawyer:
Glocksman
@Roger Moore:
I misread the comment.
I though he was asking if the prosecution could appeal the verdict.
Thanks.
SatanicPanic
@Mandalay: Wow, watch him bust out “guns don’t kill people” and some incoherent crap about banning cars next.
mac007
I used to think owning a gun would allow me to protect my family (really, no snark). Then I began looking at the scientific studies on the topic, like this one…
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full
…and what I found scared the living bejebus out of me. The data are quite sobering. Now, there is no way I would ever own a gun for self defense.
Mnemosyne
@Glocksman:
This is Florida. In Florida, you can go to your ex-wife’s house with a gun, shoot her new boyfriend dead, and be set free by a judge
— no trial at all —because you were standing your ground.I wish I were joking, but that’s just one of the actual cases.
ETA: Sorry, have to fix the “trial” part — there was a trial, the jury deadlocked, and a judge subsequently found the guy couldn’t be retried because of a Florida SC decision that said cases like his would be eligible for a Stand Your Ground immunity hearing.
jcmayo
@The Other Bob: That’s basically a direct quote of the sheriff.
Jebediah, RBG
@muddy:
One of many things that gun-strokers don’t seem to think through. As I understand it, the US military has more than a few weapons that can prettily easily overcome small arms. If the gubmint ever decides that Buford’s shack needs to be taken out, Buford will be lucky if he gets out before it becomes a crater.
Roger Moore
@Jebediah, RBG:
Drones!
muddy
@Jebediah, RBG: Not to mention that they never see any problem with the government that they would need to fight for, except for owning the guns themselves. It’s so circular. It’s just meant to be an overwhelming argument to preserve patriotism. I was going to say to preserve democracy, but they have informed me that this is not a democracy, it’s a republic. I don’t really remember a lot of cries to spread republic around the world, but wev.
Roger Moore
@Glocksman:
I thought that was more likely.
WaterGirl
@Mandalay:
That’s what we used to call cold-blooded murder. What changed?
Gex
@Roger Moore: They’re trying to get us to the point of “How does he know they are unarmed. There are so many new laws making it legal to pack heat in public that the probability of anyone you encounter having a gun has gone up drastically.”
Sadly.
Roger Moore
@Gex:
I think that a defacto open season on blah people is a major goal, too.
The Other Chuck
@Jebediah, RBG: So basically, they’d have to turn Buford’s neighborhood into Homs? Might not exactly win hearts and minds there. Small arms do in fact make house-to-house fighting something less than pleasant.
My problem with this “defense against tyranny” argument is that the gun-fondlers are pretty much the very exemplars of tyranny we need a robust defense against.
The Other Chuck
@WaterGirl:
They found out liberals didn’t like murder. Cleek’s law.
Elizabelle
from mistermix’s link:
Uh, no. This father — or couple — needs to be prosecuted for child endangerment.
That loaded gun belonged in a gun safe, not in a drawer.
Make an example of this “parenting columnist.”
He got off easily — his baby daughter will survive. The next little child will not. (And how will that little boy feel in years to come, seeing his sister’s scars?)
Secure the goddamned gun.
Low Country Boil
Gex
@Skerry: I did too. I didn’t say one word about guns though. And it has already been moved. I just said he really shouldn’t be a parenting advice columnist if he can’t imagine that a kid will climb and get into things. That’s what kids do.
Gex
@Roger Moore: Oh no doubt about that. I see federal law nullification, talk of secession, and new laws that seem to mainly legalize the shooting of black men, and I get what’s happening. Of course they don’t have any idea what they are really doing. They are pretty sure they have wholesome, God-fearing, America defending motivations.
SiubhanDuinne
@Ruckus:
Which may explain why we so seldom get anywhere!
EthylEster
@Cervantes: I love George Orwell. That guy could think AND write.
EthylEster
@jl:
I’m very impressed by your clever humor. It’s so witty to dis the Seattle team by essentially saying they’re girls.
pseudonymous in nc
@Mandalay:
Isn’t that statement the epitome of “pound on the table” lawyering?
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
@jrg:
You’ve never met a three year old, have you?
TerryC
@Roger Moore:
Someone who feels such unreasonable (to the normal person) fear is a coward. We all know that what Dunn felt was anger, not fear. But, take him at his word. If so, then he is a coward.
He needs to be called that: “Michael Dunn, defendant who by his own defense is a coward.”
Ruckus
@SiubhanDuinne:
Actually the reason we seldom get anywhere is we aren’t really trying to get anywhere, we’re here just to vent. That’s not a bad thing but it really isn’t enough. But like most of us what to do other than vote and work to elect better people is all we know. How to find those better people???? How to recognize better people?? How to convince them to subject themselves to the mess that is politics??????
IOW how do we get beyond the pissing and moaning and become effective at any or all directions?
Aptidude
EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON. GOD HAS A FUCKING PLAN.
Mnemosyne
@GHayduke (formerly lojasmo):
I suspect you may have missed a hint of sarcasm. ;-)