Here’s the text of Obama’s speech. Here’s the Post summary of changes. Major changes are having some other entity (to be determined) hold bulk metadata instead of the government, ending eavesdropping of foreign leaders who are allies, requiring two degrees of separation between suspected terrorists and anyone whose data is collected (it was three degrees), time limits on the gag orders for national security letters, and new limits on collection and retention of data collected from foreign citizens.
Update: Here’s the full text of the changes, via Kevin Drum.
Culture of Truth
Also President would “immediately require authorities to obtain a court order to access [ metadata ]”
Betty Cracker
@Culture of Truth: Glad to hear it. Lack of court oversight on that was worrisome, at least to me.
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: Agreed.
This sounds like a good start.
Cassidy
JUST WORDS! JUST WORDS! BULLY PULPIT!
JoeShabadoo
Since when has the NSA actually followed the rules?
They will just have their own top secret legal interpretations of the rules that says they can do anything they want.
MikeJ
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Not gonna happen. Frankly, I’m not convinced it should happen. Of course we’re going to spy on Germany. They’re going to spy on us too. We’re just going to go back to not talking about it in pubic.
Rob in CT
@MikeJ:
Seriously, that was the part of all of this that bothered me the least. I mean, it was bad that it came out, as it damaged our diplomacy (temporarily, one hopes). But I’m not actually offended that they were doing it.
Cassidy
I saw nothing in that speech about offering immunity to Snowden and Greenwald and anointing them as Supreme Saints of Awesomesauce Truthiness and Amazing Heroes of the Most Amazing Heroes Ever. Not. Good. Enough.
dpm (dread pirate mistermix)
@Rob in CT: So they don’t bug Merkel’s iPhone – just all her staff’s. It’s a fig leaf.
Ben Franklin
Landmark speechifying.
Villago Delenda Est
@MikeJ:
Exactly. We will continue to spy on everyone, and everyone will continue to spy on us. This is a very, very old game. Ursprache old. It’s a long game, of innovations, counter-innovations, apologies, non-apologies, etc.
Everyone knows that in a negotiation, there’s the public face and the private face. Until the Psi Corps comes along to read the minds of those you negotiate with, you’ll need espionage to try to figure out what they really want, and how far they’ll go to get it.
Belafon
@MikeJ: Suddenly every other country is just an acquaintance.
Villago Delenda Est
OT but hilarious, from Noisemax:
Mark Levin to GOP: Boycott State of the Union
Mark Levin to GOP: Take WATB behavior to the next level!
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: I haven’t had much of a problem with the overseas stuff.
To me, the big thing is that a court order be required to poke through people’s affairs.
ericblair
@Rob in CT:
I follow French and German domestic news. The French basically gave it the Gallic shrug, saying of course everybody does this, were impressed with the resources the NSA had to do this, and criticized French counterintelligence for being incompetent. Everybody remembers the Chirac days.
The Germans were more pissed off about it. However, there was a fair bit of pushback of the form of “how do YOU like it, Merkel” based on some of the recent history of what the BfV (German domestic intelligence service) has been up to, and the fact that the German government has been cooperating with the NSA all this time.
Chris
@MikeJ:
@Rob in CT:
This. I hope to Christ we’re collecting every bit of data we can on our good “friends” in Israel, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. There can be practical reasons why it’s a bad idea to spy on your allies in this or that circumstances, but a blanket ban? Please.
Chyron HR
@JoeShabadoo:
You’re right, Obama must abolish the NSA entirely. Oh, wait, they will continue to operate in secret because everybody knows they don’t follow any rules.
We could defund the agency, but I suppose they would turn to drug trafficking to pay for their illegal telephony metadata sweeps. I guess we should just give up on America entirely and split into 50 warring states.
MikeJ
BTW, don’t get me wrong. I like a lot of the other stuff. They should need court orders for domestic stuff, and there should be more oversight. But there are legitimate uses for intelligence gathering and when it comes to foreign targets I don’t believe anything will actually change.
Villago Delenda Est
Also, too, the problem with metadata is that it is such a tempting source for fishing expeditions. The holder of the metadata needs to be truly independent, and release of its holdings needs to be highly supervised and transparent. This is the main problem with the FISA court right now…it’s opaque by design with malice aforethought. “Security” suddenly trumps every other possible value, because if the target gets wind of the access to the metadata, they’ll change their behavior, rendering the targeted metadata useless in a real time monitoring sense, which is what the NSA aspires to accomplish, in the hopes of heading off the “bad guys”, whoever this week’s usual suspects are, off at the pass.
No one is willing to accept that “shit happens” is the norm. We’ve got to stop the shit, or, at the very least, use the shit to our advantage: can you say Dick Cheney demanding a link between 9-11 attacks and all our oil sitting under Saddam’s realm, boys and girls? Sure you can!
Ben Franklin
@Chyron HR:
but I suppose they would turn to drug trafficking to pay for their illegal telephony metadata sweeps
It’s worked pretty well for CIA. Can we add yet another redundant agency to our spy catalogue?
Cassidy
This won’t be made right until Snowden and Greenwald are given a cross country parade for their devotion to Progressive Truthiness and all the Progressive Truthinessers who supported them on blogs across the country are pulled out of their anonymity and given complimentary handjobs by all those evil NSA analysts.
Villago Delenda Est
@Chyron HR:
NSA = No Such Agency
Bill Arnold
Reducing chaining from 3 hops to 2 is a pretty big deal.
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
And when the Psi Corps does it, it will still be spying, just as much as when it was done with NSA intercepts, satellite overheads, double agents, concealed microphones and people hiding in closets.
catclub
@ericblair: This. Another commenter said you will know if it is different if the Germans or French pass some laws that change the status of the relationship. They didn’t.
catclub
I was surprised by the buzzfeed article on all the anonymous spies who want Snowden dead. The one who said he was the worst traitor ever must not have known about Aldrich Ames or the Navy guy.
I wonder if all those guys are contractors who are afraid of losing income.
Villago Delenda Est
@Chris:
BINGO!
One of the interesting little subplot points of B5 was that the telepaths had all sorts of restrictions on what they could report to whoever hired them to monitor a negotiation. Some telepaths were more than willing to violate the ethical code that was imposed on them in order to deliver the product their employers were looking for.
Same old same old.
Cacti
All sound good except for the one about ending eavesdropping on foreign leaders who are allies.
An ally is an ally until they’re not.
Villago Delenda Est
@catclub:
Nah, that can’t be it. Must be something else.
One thing Snowden did do was create a shitton of busywork for those left behind at Fort Meade and the various Beltway bandit shops in all those edge city business plazas.
chopper
@catclub:
why? even snowden himself once said that people leaking info should be ‘shot in the balls’.
Cacti
@catclub:
I was surprised by the buzzfeed article on all the anonymous spies who want Snowden dead. The one who said he was the worst traitor ever must not have known about Aldrich Ames or the Navy guy.
I’d say caveat lector on the reliability of unsourced buzzfeed stories.
Bill Arnold
@Cacti:
Did you ever play that game “Diplomacy”? Lot of fun.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cacti:
Well, what this REALLY means is “oh shit, it’s out in the open!”.
They’ll find a new way of doing this.
Gathering intelligence on what the TRUE intentions of your allies, various neutrals, or adversaries have in mind is fraught with danger, not only of your intelligence gathering being detected, but also of getting false readings that play to your own prejudices. This is where the malassstration went horribly, horribly wrong with the “stovepiping” meme. Guys like Curveball could play them like violins.
Cacti
@Bill Arnold:
Did you ever play that game “Diplomacy”? Lot of fun.
No, but it looks interesting.
Frankensteinbeck
A few more restrictions and transparency. A third party to provide an extra layer for data access so that any violations are more easily revealed. A measured solution to a non-apocalyptic problem. Sounds about right. I like the time limits on gag orders, myself.
ericblair
@catclub:
There are also ongoing domestic concerns: certain factions in Germany have long wanted into the Five Eyes intelligence alliance (US/Canada/UK/Aus/NZ) which has a mutual non-spying agreement, and the NSA spying scandal looked like a way to force the issue. Apparently the US isn’t interested, so it looks like it’s dead for now. Also, the shit hit the fan during the runup to German federal elections, so a lot of things got said for domestic consumption at the time.
FlipYrWhig
Sure, Obama has endorsed [stuff], but there’s also the matter of [other stuff], and the fact that he {hasn’t done [other stuff] by now | hasn’t tried hard enough to do [other stuff]} is obviously a [disaster | betrayal | fiasco], and anyone who disagrees is a jack-booted authoritarian lickspittle.
Villago Delenda Est
@ericblair:
This should never, ever be discounted when looking at the overall picture.
NonyNony
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yes. This. The whole idea of having a “non-government” entity holding onto the metadata is pointless if we still have a regime of secret warrants granted by secret courts that nobody knows about and if that entity allows data mining techniques on the data that allow for fishing expeditions.
Ideally the setup would be that somehow the people holding the data can’t read it because it’s encrypted with a key they don’t have. The government would have the key to but wouldn’t be allowed access to the data until they show up with a court order. The holding entity would have the data but wouldn’t be able to use it for anything, but would need the government’s participation to read anything. But the only way to make this work is if the entity holding onto the data had a real adversarial relationship with the law enforcement arm of the government to keep backroom deals to a minimum, and I just don’t see how that can work. It can’t be the individual telcos holding the data either, because they would have a strong incentive to cooperate in backroom deals for a lot of reasons – it has to be an entity that would have no incentive to cooperate beyond the minimum amount that needs to be done to fulfill the terms of a warrant. I just don’t see how that’s going to happen in practice.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cacti:
Oh, believe me, it is. The game schools you in the fine art of the well placed shiv in the back.
kc
That’s not particularly comforting.
taylormattd
@Cassidy: My favorite part is that Obama is following, in very large part, the recommendations of his NSA panel. At the time the panel recommendations were released, here is what Greenwald applauded them. He now says, however, that Obama is “keeping everything the same”.
FlipYrWhig
@NonyNony: For that adversarial entity, seems like you’d need a civil liberties division of the DoJ or something like that. Inside the executive branch but tasked with being absolutely zealous about protecting the public’s privacy rights.
LanceThruster
Joseph Heller once observed, “Catch-22 means people have the right to do to you anything which you cannot prevent them from doing to you.”
That’s some catch!
FlipYrWhig
@taylormattd: Well, that’s how this always works. The minimal difference between one position and another instantly hardens into the one fundamental difference that justified continued indignation. Some people are just wired that way.
Villago Delenda Est
@taylormattd:
Which only brings up, again, what Greenwald’s true motivations are for this. You can take him at face value, or, if you’re cynical, wonder just why that change in attitude took place.
Given aspects of Greenwald’s background, it’s foolish to take him at face value.
Villago Delenda Est
@LanceThruster:
The best there is!
ericblair
@Villago Delenda Est:
Greenwald’s motivation is that he has a pretty good gig right now feeding the Outrage-O-Matic and isn’t going to give it up until he’s extracted every last nickel and pagehit out of it.
NonyNony
@FlipYrWhig:
I’m not sure that would work, because the pressure from inside the executive branch would be too great. Nobody wants to be the President who presides over a major terrorist attack that “could have been stopped if only those paper pushers had just let us have the data”. And that’s what will happen to any entity that is tasked with holding the data – it will either be pressured into doing things behind the scenes, or it will be used as a scapegoat when the next successful attack inevitably occurs anywhere on the planet.
That’s why it can’t be inside the government. But also why its status as an independent entity would be problematic. And why the telcos can’t be trusted with it either. It’s not something that seems to have an easy solution, which is probably why what was proposed in the speech seems so hand-wavy compared to the other points.
Villago Delenda Est
@NonyNony:
Exactly. And no one imagines for a New York nanosecond that the party out of power won’t feed that meme.
LanceThruster
@Villago Delenda Est:
I was so hoping someone would add that bit.
xD
Belafon
@NonyNony: A good solution would require debate in Congress, oversight, ownership by all relevant parties – the Executive and Congress – and a willingness to continually fix problems. It’s one of those areas that, to be done correctly, cannot be a political weapon. Politics would have to stop at the security’s edge.
Ben Franklin
@ericblair:
Truly, this Admin, is the gift that keeps giving.
Villago Delenda Est
@Belafon:
Well, if we had a Congress that didn’t have a substantial minority of screaming three year olds in a position to stop adult business on a whim, that would be possible.
Glocksman
@Rob in CT:
Indeed.
One would think that Americans screaming about spying on foreign leaders were channeling their inner Henry Stimson.
Of course later on Henry changed his mind.
I’m upset they got caught, not that they were doing it.
Similarly, I never had an attitude of ‘how dare they’ WRT Aldrich Ames, Jonathan Pollard, or John Walker spying for the Soviet Union and Israel.
That said, I strongly believe all three traitors should never get out of prison.
jonas
@Villago Delenda Est: Some 12 years later, the media, public, and politicians still cling to the old canard that 9/11 happened because we were in the dark about the plot and our intelligence capabilities were too limited. No — Customs, the FBI, and the CIA had all the pieces sitting in front of them, gathered using regular, old-fashioned collection tools. The August 01 NIE said an attack was coming. It was about putting the pieces of the puzzle together — not a lack of pieces. The idea that just having lots of pieces to play with makes us safer is an illusion.
ericblair
@Ben Franklin:
Right, because the Obama administration is the most corruptest administration in the history of ever. I heard that on Fox News too.
NonyNony
@Belafon:
Then we will never do it correctly because, absent the existential outside threat of the Soviet Union, there has never been a time in our history when ANY issue has not been able to be used as a political weapon. Ever.
If we need politics to go away to have security, then we might as well ask for unicorns. With today’s understanding of genetics it’s actually more likely that we’ll get the unicorn.
Villago Delenda Est
Another Noisemax OT:
Noonan: Christie Is ‘Selfish’ Man
The sound of the knives being pulled is a cacophony now.
Villago Delenda Est
@jonas:
Viewing things as history, it’s so easy to smack our collective forehead and say “all the pieces were right there, in front of us, waiting to be fitted together in a mosaic that would have allowed us to prevent this tragedy.”
Retrospect always is that way.
“If only we had more pieces!” is the intuitive response that rationalizes away our helplessness in the face of reality.
FlipYrWhig
@NonyNony: Is it even possible to have an entity that protects the rights of the people that isn’t “inside the government” at some level? That’s kind of what governments are chartered to do, no? I’m not sure some sort of privacy protection agency would be any more susceptible to pressure or incompatible with other governmental functions than, say, the department of environmental protection or the consumer product safety commission. Call me a statist but that’s what I’d do…
MomSense
@Villago Delenda Est:
I think it might have something to do with Der Spiegel. They reported that they had been given information they chose not to publish because it would have exposed operatives.
ericblair
@jonas:
We did figure the puzzle out before 9/11 and the career guys were running around like their hair was on fire trying to get the White House to listen. Bush wanted to screw around with ballistic missile defense, and here we are.
However, it’s a pretty valid argument that we’ve been relying far too heavily on signal intelligence because our human intelligence these days sucks. The terrorist groups are very difficult to penetrate, we’ve hung some key allies out to dry, and the security clearance process has historically been way too suspicious of anyone with foreign ties (who, you know, speak the language and understand the culture).
GRANDPA john
and in other news http://www.independentmail.com/news/2014/jan/17/judge-spikes-photo-id-requirement-pa-voters/
Ben Franklin
@ericblair:
Well, the criminal state of Russia is enjoying the diorama of relative corruption since their fall from chief Axis Evil. Our patina has worn thin.
dmsilev
OT, the ascension of Hillary Clinton to the Presidency is now a mathematical certainty:
Belafon
If they can find an entity. There will probably have to be some other government agency that does this.
@Ben Franklin: Get over it. Considering that Russia imprisons women for singing, businessmen for competing against other companies (estimates are at 100K inmates are for competing against the wrong person), and other things, the US would have to go on a serious turn into a tyranny binge to catch up. When I stop seeing you commenting on here for speaking out against the president, then I’ll start wondering.
Cervantes
@catclub:
If we can judge by the quotations in the article, they need counseling.
lol
@Belafon:
You know, it’s really weird that in all the tens of thousands of intelligence docs that Snowden stole, he managed to not steal anything that would put Russia in a bad light. Weird.
Belafon
@NonyNony: Yep, that’s why I don’t hold out much hope. The best we can really do is elect the right people.
El Caganer
@dmsilev: She’s obviously going to win in a landslide with an anti-endorsement from Billy K.
Davis X. Machina
@Villago Delenda Est: Are you sure they’re not harpoons?
Ben Franklin
@Belafon:
Russia is a babe in a manger with regard to civil liberties, whereas we have supposedly been the leaders of the free World, at least on paper for a couple of centuries. It’s a cartoonish comparison, but not as starkly different from the US as some would like to think.
Davis X. Machina
@Villago Delenda Est: Kissinger used to play Diplomacy with his grad students, back in the pre-Nixon days when he was just a Harvard prof…
El Caganer
And totally OT, appears that one of Chubs’ crew is ready to talk: http://news.msn.com/us/player-in-nj-bridge-scandal-will-talk-for-immunity
Cassidy
POLICE STATE! POLICE STATE! *ZOMG, WE’RE LIVING IN A POLICE STATE!
*Please don’t pay attention to the real police states because then I just sound like a whiny, entitled suburbanite.
Sarah, Proud and Tall
Waaaaaaah! Not another post about McArdle! Why can’t you people ever write about something important?
Oh. …. Carry on.
ericblair
@Belafon:
You can fix a system to be more resistant to abuse, but you can’t make a system abuse-proof through technical means like a lot of the libertarians want to. At some level, you’ve got to rely on human judgment and respect for the law. If we get another Bush/Cheney in power, all this shit would go out the window and there’s nothing that a determined enough executive with a cowed legislature and judiciary couldn’t break.
MikeJ
@jonas:
The problem is that the FBI is supposed to arrest people who are breaking the law. If the CIA finds out about a plot, the manner in which they find out may prevent it from being used as evidence. That may be because it would violate the defendant’s rights or it may be because they don’t want to talk about how they found out. Either way, cops have an extremely difficult time using info from spies.
Yatsuno
@Sarah, Proud and Tall: Indeed. It’s Fashion Week somewhere (Paris, I think) and some of the entries redefine godawful.
Oh and hi dear. I’m calmly awaiting the arrival of my professional torturist, as we label them round these parts.
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
Wasn’t a huge B5 fan, but I loved the Psi Corps episodes. Love sci-fi shows, love spy shows, so when you combine the two… But that and Stargate are the only shows I’ve watched that delved into it.
Soonergrunt
@Cassidy: Which probably has more to do with Greenwald calling the speech a publicity stunt than anything actually in the speech.
Cervantes
@Davis X. Machina: The game was devised by a student at Harvard Law in the mid-50s.
Cervantes
@Soonergrunt: Most speeches are exercises in public relations.
RareSanity
@NonyNony:
I don’t know, if you get enough smart people on it, they could figure something out.
I like your idea of having data be encrypted where the “guards” don’t have the keys, but won’t allow the people with the keys access to the lock without court order. The data center could be financed by the government…but built, equipped, and maintained by a third party. That third party could be a “foundation” of some sort, that is operated by a board comprised of organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the ACLU, faculty members at Law Schools, Representatives of the Bar Association, etc. Just make certain rules for board membership that no former members of intelligence agencies, law enforcement, or elected officials could ever serve as members.
Also, if you were to ever serve as a member, you agree to allow no less than 10 years to elapse before pursuing one of the jobs that would have kept you off the board, or face a hefty financial penalty…it’d be like a non-compete agreement in TV/radio.
I would think that this would scare off the “fakers” trying to game the system, and the people that would agree, would be people that were generally interested in protecting the privacy of citizens.
Chris
@FlipYrWhig:
Exactly. Give me the choice between “outside the government” and “part of the government” and I’ll take the latter every time. At least politicians get elected by the public.
Cervantes
@Sarah, Proud and Tall: Hey, would you by any chance be interested in a pair of lightly used goose denipplers?
ericblair
@Ben Franklin:
This would hold more water if respect for civil liberties and democratic institutions in Russia hadn’t been going in full reverse over the last decade. It’s not like those poor backwards ex-commies just haven’t figured out the whole democracy thing yet. Russia prides itself on being a Power, not some hanger-on of the West, and isn’t interested in playing second fiddle to Western organizations.
Cassidy
@Soonergrunt: Greenwald’s whole career is nothing more than publicity stunts.
NonyNony
@ericblair:
I’m worried that we can’t actually even build a system where people with good judgment and respect for the law can operate in it without trampling on civil liberties. The incentives are all wrong – there is no incentive at all for looking out for civil liberties and very strong incentives to maximize whatever law enforcement can do to prevent terrorist attacks from being successful. Even with the best of intentions no executive and no legislature is going to voluntarily back off on doing things that are perceived at preventing another terrorist attack. Anyone who did so would be politically destroyed when the next successful terrorist attack was carried out, and would possibly be politically destroyed in the next election even without a successful attack.
If there were as strong an incentive to look out for civil liberties as there is for maximizing anti-terrorism, then things would be different. I wish I saw some approach that would lead to those incentives changing, but barring some major changes in what the public at large really cares about, I don’t see those incentives changing at all anytime soon.
Yatsuno
@ericblair: Hell during Putin’s last election Russia refused to have third party monitors check the results, although considering how the Russian public loves their strongmen it probably wasn’t much of a necessity. It’s pretty much the way things were under Communism only the names have changed. And that’s not even touching the Pu$sy Riot arrests and the thousands of political prisoners sitting in Russian jails. Slave labour doesn’t create itself after all.
? Martin
Obviously these are all lies. Why just a month ago the NSA stole everyones credit card information from Target.
Belafon
@lol: I doubt we’ll never know everything he took, in part because too many parties need for it to be secret. I am just getting tired of being able to read Americans statements to the effect that this is the most tyrannical leader ever. Really? Then what country are you posting from? Is the FBI at your door dragging you out as you type your final words?
Cervantes
@ericblair:
Never mind Russia, it seems to me our own state/federal legislatures/executives have not been doing too well in terms of “respect for civil liberties and democratic institutions … over the last decade,” either.
(Not disputing your broader point.)
Ripley
Greenwald Determined To Strike In The U.S.
Soonergrunt
@Belafon: This.
kc
@GRANDPA john:
That’s good news.
Yatsuno
@Belafon:
Lemme guess: these are the same people who were totes protesting this under Dubya as well. Except there’s no evidence of their protests anywhere, but THEY WERE DOING IT DAMMIT!!! You’re just choosing to accept the oppression that is Nobummer!!! IMPEACH NAOW!!!
And OT: in today’s HOOCODANODE???
ericblair
@Yatsuno:
Yep. I’ve got family in Russia (you do too, I think?), and Putin is popular. To a lot of Russians, “democracy” means the Yeltsin days when everybody’s pension disappeared, the ruble went down the toilet, and Russia lost its international influence, so if that’s democracy then we don’t want none.
@NonyNony:
I think this is true too, and why it’s going to take decades to unshit the bed that Bush and Cheney soiled. It’s very hard to ratchet the security state back.
burnspbesq
@Omnes Omnibus:
So Section 215 orders are now equivalent to search warrants? Works for me.
FlipYrWhig
@Chris: @RareSanity: I suppose you could do something like the Fed, which is both inside and outside the federal government, but this seems unwieldy. All you really need is an agency of career civil servants rather than political appointees. Again, see the Consumer Product Safety Commission. I don’t think it’s a wonderful idea to charter something outside the government to guard the public interest. That’s just reinventing the basic principle of government.
FlipYrWhig
@? Martin: Obvi. They kept talking about “targeting,” and then they proved their point.
Yatsuno
@ericblair: No Russian family. The Soviet Union was an interest of mine in high school (which got me a bit of unwarranted attention but that’s in the past) so I try to keep up on things there. Doesn’t mean I think Pravda lives up to their name now though. I have a lot of family in Canada though, mostly distant cousins.
Tone In DC
@Ripley:
LULz.
Early and often.
kc
@kc:
Well, mostly good.
SiubhanDuinne
Freedom Industries has filed Chapter 11 (sorry to go O/T).
Amir Khalid
@Yatsuno:
It sounds a little too good to be true. By what magic has the contamination suddenly been removed from West Virginia’s water supply?
Yatsuno
@SiubhanDuinne: Show of hands: who didn’t see this coming? Anyone? Bueller?
burnspbesq
@NonyNony:
In other words, the way the issuance of search warrants has worked in ordinary criminal investigations for as long as there have been search warrants.
You do know that, don’t you?
Search warrants are issued ex parte. You don’t find out about it until the cops show up to serve it. And your only remedy for defects in the warrant (whether it’s something as relatively trivial as transposing two digits in the address of the place to be searched, or as serious as the cops lying out of their asses in the affidavit that is used to show probable cause) is to move to suppress the illegally obtained evidence.
MikeJ
@SiubhanDuinne:
I’m sure Liberty, Inc will soon be there to take up the slack.
Suffern ACE
@Soonergrunt: Unhappy man stays unhappy and wants every day you live in the US to be unhappy. I sense a theme.
RareSanity
@burnspbesq:
Do “regular” search warrants become a matter of public record after issuance?
If so, I think you can see where I’m going in showing the huge difference between “regular” search warrants, and those issued by the FISA court. If not, I’ve learned something new, and that is almost equally as troubling.
PaulW
I’ll believe it when they use their metadata mining to make the City of Heroes MMO available as Open Source gaming.
…what?
Chyron HR
@Ben Franklin:
I’d like my nothingburger medium, with shredded lettuce and mayo.
Cassidy
@taylormattd: There is nothing he can do to satisfy the pure, true progressives if this country. He could start changing things by executive fiat into a hippie’s wet dream and they’d still bitch.
Zifnab25
Oh thank goodness. I was worried the solution would be “pay a private company tons of money to invade my privacy”.
Cassidy
@Chyron HR: Would you like those fries to be disingenuous or simply stupid?
gwangung
@Zifnab25: Personally, I think the genie’s out of the bottle. Technical capabilities increase daily, and nothing can do can ever bring us back to bring us back to what we thought was private. Moreover, increasing technical advances will insure that steps we take today are already outdated.
The debate should be over best safeguards we can manage, rather than perfect safeguards.
muricafukyea
For months and months glorified reddit poster muckymux went on and on arms flailing hair on fire about “oh noezzz…our privacy” blah blah yada yada.
Now when reality hits him in the face where the President has looked at it objectively, spoken with all the relevant groups, and given a fact based response….he’s got NOTHING. No drama…because there never really was in reality. It was only people like Griftwald that tried to make it that way because that is how they earn a living.
Muckymux doesn’t seen any drama to be milked or more likely, is not being egged on by others that are trolling them to make them think there is drama. So they would rather move on to the next shiny object because that is what they are all about. Little if anything to do with reality. All about trying to create clickbait.
Therein is why have have less than zero respect for the people I have mentioned above. Simply because they have earned it!
AxelFoley
@Ben Franklin:
For trolls like you and Greenwald? Sure.
Villago Delenda Est
@SiubhanDuinne:
The con has come to an end. Time to get the hell out of Dodge.
Aruba, here we come!
Villago Delenda Est
@muricafukyea:
That’s a lot of derp. Did you have to dip into the reserves to post that?
Villago Delenda Est
@Amir Khalid:
Well, it’s moved downstream. Eventually, it will hit Baton Rouge, and Bobby Jindal will help himself to a nice big glass of it to show that there is no danger to the water supply.
Botsplainer
@Cassidy:
I find myself saddened that he didn’t announce the successful raid on the Miranda-Greenwald compound with footage of Greenwald whimpering about his rights as bullets rip into his body.
Villago Delenda Est
@Botsplainer:
And people say I have unresolved anger issues!
/grin, duck, and run like hell
Soonergrunt
@Botsplainer: I don’t want to see Greenwald killed.
I do want to see him pay his fucking taxes. That’s what a great deal of this is about. He didn’t give much of a shit one way or the other about government overreach–was one of GW Bush’s biggest cheerleaders, in fact–until he got in trouble for tax evasion.
burnspbesq
@RareSanity:
Not all the time. But if there is a criminal case that develops, and the defendant moves to suppress any evidence that was obtained in the search or as a result of the search, the warrant application is highly likely to end up in the record.
Betty Cracker
@Soonergrunt: I’m no Greenwald fan, and for all I know, he is a dastardly tax evader in addition to being a tiresome polemicist. But it’s not true that he didn’t bitch about the NSA when Bush was president. He was howling about it incessantly before most of us had ever heard of Barack Obama.
Keith G
Some of these proposals seem a bit light, but it’s a start. The real question is how much of Obama’s skin is he willing to put into the process of bringing these into reality. Anyone can propose that we send a manned mission to Mars (for example) the question becomes, as president what are you willing to do to make it happen?
RareSanity
@burnspbesq:
I know that most of the time you get a bad rap for just trying explaining the law in your comments…although you are also known to throw a bit of “prick” on top of it…but I do appreciate the information you provide.
In this case, the problem most people have with the FISA court is that the only people that actually know how it works, can’t talk about it unless you have a top secret security clearance.
People just know that there’s something inherently wrong with intrusting that kind of power, where only an extremely small group of people actually know what the hell is going on. If people actually had more information, it might help to quell a lot of the anxiety and conspiracy theories.
Basically, the government needs to get its’ shit together and become more discerning on what information actually pertains to national security, and what information doesn’t. The information that doesn’t, release it, and hold on to the information that does. If it didn’t feel like they were trying to hold on to so much, the populace might not be so paranoid about what it was they were trying to hold on to.
Know what I mean?
LanceThruster
@SiubhanDuinne:
That “F#ck & Run” business model really, really works!
Soonergrunt
@Betty Cracker: But he didn’t give a shit about the NSA (or any other government overreach) until he skipped the country to avoid paying his taxes. Up until then, he was a huge cheerleader for Bush’s war in Iraq.
Liberty60
@jonas:
I read somewhere that the Stasi had a file on virtually every single man, woman, and child in East Germany.
And yet, when the wall fell, no one was more surprised by the people’s reaction than the Stasi.
They had plenty of data, the story goes, but had no culture by which they could honestly examine or interpret it.
I don’t know if this is anecdotal, but it sounds like what we already know about bureaucratic regiems- they slowly devolve into sycophancy, careerism, and turf hoarding.
Whether its screwups by FEMA, Forestry Service, Social Security, or any other agency, the lack of data is almost never the real problem- but it is always the first excuse.
Given the horror stories about the no-fly list, and wrong addresses in drug raids, I don’t think that giving the NSA/FBI/CIAMayberry PD will result in a better outcome for national security.
Yatsuno
@Soonergrunt: And here I was thinking it was twoo wuv. It’s kind of a nice thought that he has his own personal revenue officer just waiting for him to set foot back in the US. Of course that will never happen since he has a few questions to answer regarding the Snowden affair.
Mart
Seems strange to me so many of this community are all in on a duplicate agency that costs us $60 billion a year, results in worldwide contempt for us, and has NOTHING to show for its efforts; other than Greenwald and Snowden are douches.
? Martin
@Mart: It has quite a lot to show for its efforts. But it’s not recognized as such or its dismissed by some. Terrorism isn’t all that sigint does. Its also heavily involved in Afghanistan, in situations such as hostage taking off the Horn of Africa, in monitoring nations like Iran and North Korea. In fact, its much more of that kind of stuff than sniffing everyone’s phone number.
Cassidy
@Keith G: As I said in comment #4. Predictable is an understatement.
Yatsuno
Holy fuck Sippy Cup. Way to fucking trivialize the Holocaust with a horrible throwaway line. Some CNN editor got some splainin’ to do there.
Cassidy
@Botsplainer: I don’t need anyone to die. I would like to see some people answer questions as to whether laws were broken. I’d like to see them stand trial in front of a jury if their peers. I’d like to see Assange answer questions about the alleged sexual assault. Nothing crazy.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Mart: That’s the whole point. Virtually all of it has to do with being against Greenwald and Snowden, not defending the NSA, which as you say makes little sense. And course the reason for being against anything Greenwald advocates (including Snowden) is that Greenwald is critical of Obama. Or more broadly, the notion that being highly critical of the NSA with Obama as President is being critical of Obama, and thus forbidden.
What makes it funny is when Obama himself starts admitting that Snowden revealed some important problems, to the point where he’s proposing fixes, making Obama less of an Obot than some of his defenders are.
Keith G
@Mart: I think it’s more a matter , “If it’s happening during this president watch it might be okay.” That is in tandem with the notion that if someone is complaining about actions taken during this presidency, they must have the worst of intentions. Hence the mentions of Greenwald and Snowden even if their names really aren’t germane to this thread.
Keith G
@Cassidy: Actually what you said at 4 made little sense. Something about bully pulpit? Let me know when you have it figured out.
Cassidy
@Keith G: Like I said, predictable.
Mart
@? Martin: Yes, thanks to NSA, we know where the terrorists are. To the north, the east, the south and the west.
Keith G
@Cassidy: As in the the wonder that is the rising Sun?
Ben Franklin
@Chyron HR:
I’d like my nothingburger medium, with shredded lettuce and mayo.
That’s what I like about freedumb. I can also haz either paper or plastic bags at the supermarket. That alone gives the US an edge over Russia.
gwangung
@Mart: This is a particularly glib remark.
I’ll keep that in mind for my next play.
lol
@Mart:
You do certainly sum up the glibertarian world view with respect to foreign affairs. If we pretend we don’t have any enemies, we won’t have any!
Ben Franklin
@gwangung:
I suspected you were here just to glean smart-ass comments for re-publication. You’ve come to the right place as they can be found NSE and W.
kc
@Betty Cracker:
Awkward . . .
Mart
@lol: That line worked for Rumsfeld, was he a glibertarian too?
Cassidy
@kc: Awkward as in you didn’t read the reply?
Villago Delenda Est
@Yatsuno:
Sippy Cupp could really use a long “resettlement to the east” train ride, if you ask me.
Ghayduke (formerly lojasmo)
@Keith G:
“actually what you said at has take 4 made little sense. ”
Que?
Cassidy
@Ghayduke (formerly lojasmo): I was gonna let it go. It’s right up there with his “just words” comment.
Corner Stone
@Soonergrunt: I am really interested to see your sourcing on this.
Ben Franklin
@Corner Stone:
Urban legends have their own sourcing and it’s more than enough if you have your eyes properly focused on the facts that matter.
Corner Stone
@Ben Franklin: Well, anyone can make any claim here. But beyond aimai and now Soonergrunt, it’s typical to provide at least an Ole at some type of BS linkage.
I personally expect to see something from LittleGreenFootballs.
Soonergrunt
@Corner Stone: Here you go.
different-church-lady
@Cervantes: That is idiotic: the nipples are a delicacy.
Ned Ludd
@Bill E Pilgrim: I don’t know why this is so hard to figure out.
The following two propositions are NOT mutually exclusive:
1) The NSA is abusive and out of control.
2) Snowden (and perhaps Greenwald) is a ratfucking provocateur and/or paid Russian/Chinese spy.
The real world can be complicated, dude.
Cervantes
@Bill Arnold: Yes.
different-church-lady
@Bill E Pilgrim:
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I thought Greenwald was nuts years before Obama took office.
Corner Stone
@Soonergrunt: Wow.
Corner Stone
@Mart:
And amusingly, every objective study to this point has concluded that this overly massive dragnet strangling 4th amendment donkeypunching data collection has concluded that, No, actually. This shit hasn’t helped anybody do anything.
Corner Stone
@Bill E Pilgrim:
I hadn’t noticed this.
Cervantes
@taylormattd:
Are you sure about this? Do you have even the vaguest idea which came first, the quote from Greenwald or today’s announcement by the President?
Extra credit question: What was Greenwald actually responding to?
Cervantes
@Bill E Pilgrim:
Yes, and with “defenders” like these, who needs clowns?
Corner Stone
@taylormattd: No links? No sourcing?
Corner Stone
@Cervantes:
Birthday parties for 6 year olds?
Cervantes
@Corner Stone:
That’s what some of these NSA threads become, you’re right.
Corner Stone
When Obama said, “enhanced interrogation techniques”…
My soul made a serious sad face.
Corner Stone
“I wouldn’t have put any of these reforms in place, but having said that, I think they are the minimum of what he had to do, especially considering his base and where he’s coming from,” King said, pointing to the limits on tracing secondary and tertiary phone numbers. “I don’t know what the constitutional or statutory reason for that is, why two is safer than three, but again, I think that was a way to calm down the ACLU types. That just seemed to me like a cosmetic compromise.”
Mart
If Snowden is a traitor and friend of terrorists and commies everywhere, why is Obama changing NSA policies in response to his revelations? I thought the USA never negotiates with terrorists… (Yes I am working on being Glib, and it is fun.)
I might think it glib to say we are a nation in perpetual war, and fighting muslims in seven or so countries requires that the NSA should do anything it wants with no oversight. We the people paying for this in lives and treasure should accept this as the new normal without push-back. To be concerned about the constant wars and abusive NSA means you hate Obama and America; and want the commie loving Snowden and dirty gay porn tax cheat Greenwald to win.
Esquire’s Pierce linked to the article below (sorry not good at linking). Clearly the good Obama is doing things totally different from the odious Bush Admin:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/gregorydjohnsen/60-words-and-a-war-without-end-the-untold-story-of-the-most
JoyfulA
@RareSanity: I was thinking along the lines of ACLU people. Your comments in the same general direction are much better thought out and extended.
(Thanks! Now I can stop thinking. You’ve done it all.)
Cassidy
Oh how hard it must be to be the pure, true anonymous liberals of the blogosphere carrying the burden if truthiness. How heavy us the crown indeed.
taylormattd
@Cervantes: That is *literally* a quote, a directly quote, from Greenwald’s twitter, in response to Obama’s announcement.
But keep fuckin’ that chicken buddy.
Corner Stone
@taylormattd: I have a “literal” quote from you saying that fucking chickens brought you great joy.
I’ll post a link to that statement shortly.
taylormattd
@Corner Stone: You are a fucking retard. Go post in your savior, Anne Laurie’s threads, where she will defend you from the likes of ABL.
Here is your link moron: http://banter.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/greenwald_tweet_obama_nsa.jpg
taylormattd
@Corner Stone: You are a fucking retard. Go post in your savior, Anne Laurie’s threads, where she will defend you from the likes of ABL.
Here is your link moron: http://banter.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/greenwald_tweet_obama_nsa.jpg
taylormattd
I mean, are you pretending you don’t know how to look at Greenwald’s fucking twitter?
Corner Stone
@taylormattd: Who is ABL? Some imaginary agonist of your mental deficiency? You sound a little addled.
Corner Stone
@taylormattd: Your link doesn’t do anything for your case. You seem stupid.
taylormattd
@Corner Stone: You are a fucking moron. You asked for a link to Greenwald saying Obama was keeping everything the same, and I gave it to you.
Cassidy
@taylormattd: He’s probably drunk.
Corner Stone
@taylormattd: Here is what you said. Not me, you:
“At the time the panel recommendations were released, here is what Greenwald applauded them.”
Ok. Where is the link to that? We know Greenwald doesn’t much care for the announcements today. Neither do the ACLU nor a few other people/groups. You made a contrast/compare statement. Which somehow made someone something or something else.
Let’s see what you’re claiming.
Bill Arnold
@Bill Arnold:
[copied from a comment to kevin drum’s post]
Re the change in the number of hops (from 3 to 2) that are allowed, this is in the speech:
I’m reading this as no significant changes to search extension procedures. If it is also easier to deepen the search then the change’s significance depends on how much easier. (Aggressive search extensions on a base 2 step search could mean more numbers searched.) Just noting this, since it is the NSA we’re talking about.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: IIRC Greenwald said that the NSA recommendations amounted to a vindication of Snowden. I don’t recall him saying anything about the substance of the recommendations.
Cervantes
@taylormattd:
So far you’re right.
That’s where you’re wrong.
Quite.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: taylormattd is making a specific argument. One based on a hypocritical compare/contrast set of statements. S/he wants us to take Greenwald’s dismissal today as definitive of that true argument. But with no links. Just calling people morons for not reading the last 24 hours of a twitter feed.
People here keep making claims. I guess it’s the new new, new thing.
Cervantes
@taylormattd:
Yes, of course. I’m sure Corner Stone is hanging on your every word. Might even subscribe to your newsletter.
Did you happen to notice the absence of a date? And why do you think Kevin Drum is mentioned?
Also, do you know what the word “moron” really means?
mclaren
Unfortunately, the full text of Obama’s NSA speech has now been heavily redacted.
The good news is that the three branches of government continue to function: the CIA, the DHS, and the NSA.
Vlad
Less bad than the status quo, but still not good enough, IMO.
Oh, well.