I am so sick and tired of hearing the defenses of these killing machines.
“It’s unfair to single out the breed!”
“Hey- the little rascals dog was a pit bull!”
“My pit bull is super sweet!”
“It’s not the dog, it’s the owner!”
Fuck you assholes. The point isn’t that some of them are sweet, it is that all of them are loaded weapons. No matter how sweet they are 99.999% of the time, it’s the fact that the .001% of the time they maul you, they maul a kid, the kill someone else’s pet.
This isn’t mysterious bullshit. We know what is happening. Just like we know having a gun in the household does nothing but increase the likelihood of gun violence, we know that having a dangerous dog around increases the likelihood of a fatal attack. This isn’t fucking rocket science. You may very well have a wonderful pit bull, until it mauls you. Just like having a gun in your house was no big deal until your kids got into the closet or the safe and one of them accidentally shot the other.
Either way, I think you are an asshole for owning either. And what infuriates me the most is that every day, tens of thousands of super sweet dogs are put down in America, yet some of you apologists keep demanding that we pretend that pit bulls are like any other dog. They are not. So I am sick and tired of reading shit like this:
What do they act like?
The most important thing to know about pit bulls? They’re just regular dogs. While pit bulls are known to be fun-loving, energetic, and social, they all have unique personalities and should be judged as individuals.
Yeah. They are just like every other dog. Until they kill a cat, another dog, a toddler, or maul their owner. Why? They had a bad day and they could.
Again, every day, thousands of dogs who look like this are put down because they can not find a home:
Until every docile sweet dog who needs a home is out of the pound, you dangerous dog fetishists can go fuck yourselves. Put those murdering assholes down and save some loving mutts.
And before some idiot claims JRT’s are the same as Pit Bulls (Looking at you, Cassidy), let’s stop being morons. I’ve been shot with a BB gun before and lived. I’ve never taken two to the chest from a double barrel shotgun. I understand the difference, and I’m so sad you are too fucking stupid to put it together. And I do not want to hear any of anyone’s bullshit about how sweet their pit mix is. I’d rather hear about your gun collection, you antisocial jackasses.
Cassidy
1) I don’t have a gun collection.
2) You should have kept an eye on your fucking cat. I’m sad for you. I’m sorry for your loss, but you can blow it out your ass. You had an animal in your house that you believed was dangerous and you fucked up. So don’t take it out on me or anyone else. The dog that killed your cat wasn’t dangerous because of it’s breed; it was dangerous because it was a rescue which means it was probably beat all to shit and broken.
So yeah. Stop being a moron. You got some guilt, fine, work through it, but fuck you if you think I’m going to be your punching bag because you fucked up and want to pass the buck.
ETA: And btw, asshole, all four of my cats and one of my two dogs is a fucking rescue. That’s the current number. Almost all of them have been rescues. The recent cat we have, I didn’t fucking want him. I did climb under a car to drag him out of someone’s car frame he got stuck in. I fed him and took care of his wounds from said car and when I couldn’t find him a home, I kept him so he wouldn’t get put down. That soapbox your own, bend over and jam it right up your ass.
The prophet Nostradumbass
For an awful lot of people who consider themselves to be “bad-asses”, for some reason, pit bulls in particular are used as a penis-extender, in precisely the same way a gun is.
Mandalay
Your contrasting of pit bulls and loaded guns is interesting. Here’s an article on insuring against the perils of each. It’s easier to get gun insurance…
Aurona
I’m with you there. My wonderful 7 year old black Lab, Gracie, was attacked by a pit – unneutered, of course, on July 5th. She was lucky and he only chomped on her ear. Did the guy even apologize? No. Did he tell me it was my fault (for walking by his dog)? Yes. Did he offer to pay the vet bills? No. Because he was a f*cking coward who uses his dog as his assault rifle, carried over his shoulder like he was going to McDonald’s in Texas or something. There is the mean gene in these dogs now. And the US pit people brought that killer instinct into them and bred them for killing. These are not the same little guys they have in the UK that are called the Nanny Dogs, that love people and are safe with kids (met my first one after Gracie was attacked). Ours, across the pond, are nothing but killers.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Cassidy:
From your comment here, and the previous thread, I don’t believe you for a second.
Aurona
@Cassidy: You are really low rent. That shit isn’t appreciated by people who love their pets. I recommend you go make friends with a porcupine.
Mandalay
@Cassidy: I totally get it that you have a different point of view, and that’s fine. But why the disproportionate (IMO) anger?…
Cassidy
@The prophet Nostradumbass: I’m heartbroken.
@Aurona: If you don’t like honesty, then we won’t be friends.
Spaghetti Lee
@Cassidy:
“I’m sorry for your loss, but it was all your fault and you had it coming for not taking the right precautions.”
What a wonderful human being you are.
ETA: And after your performance in the last thread, you’re going to lecture someone else about honesty? Great. Way to up the asshole quotient, by the way. “It’s your fault your cat died. You fucked up. I’m just being BRUTALLY HONEST. I guess you can’t handle HONESTY.” Charming.
Howard Beale IV
Now if this isn’t a prime example of giving a dog with a bad name and hanging it, this post proves it.
My mother has a a rescued Scottie. Around us humans, it doesn’t have a mean bone in her body.
Let her loose when a stray cat/rabbit enters the courtyard, they’re toast.
Should we damn Scottish Terriers?
Should we also damn all the dogs that got rescued form Michael Vick’s dogfighting menagerie who now have loving homes?
Face reality, Cole-shit happens.
Cassidy
@Spaghetti Lee: That’s not what I said, but whatever makes you feel better.
Keith
*We’re* anti-social??!? Jeesuz CHRIST, have another fucking drink, or even better search out some weed in that backwoods state you live in so you can chill the fuck out.
The prophet Nostradumbass
I’m trying to figure out what triggered my first comment to go into moderation.
dp
I’ve owned two Rottweilers. They were appropriately socialized as puppies, and they were the sweetest dogs anyone ever met. The second one died in January, which led to our current 8 month old Catahoula puppy. She’s probably smarter than the Rotties, but she’s not any sweeter.
They have to be taught, and it takes work on the part of the owners.
Spaghetti Lee
@Cassidy:
You told him “You should have kept an eye on your fucking cat” and “you fucked up.” And those are exact quotes, so don’t get pissy. If that’s not telling John it’s his fault Tunch died, then what is?
The prophet Nostradumbass
For a slight bit of levity, I noticed that Cole said “Pitt Bulls” in the title of the post. A bit of Mountaineers creeping in there? :-)
Mark H
A-fuckin’-men. My coonhound was attacked. She became a nervous wreck afterwards and I had to place her because she developed a fear of children as well as other dogs (I work with children and it wasn’t a good mix). That pit bull took away my best friend.
Viva BrisVegas
You are dead set right. Pit Bulls have the word pit in their name for reason. They were bred to fight in pits, not to be cuddled. They have not yet had this aggression bred out of them. In fact going by the dog fighting industry, I’d say that the opposite is happening.
Like all dogs they are fine until provoked. Unfortunately it is very hard to tell where a Pit Bull’s threshold is.
The other point is that they have been bred to a design which inflicts maximum damage when they do go off.
chrome agnomen
@Mandalay:
‘…disproportionate anger…’ did you read john’s post above?
JR
No, fuck you, Cole. I get that you’re angry, probably drunk, and speaking from a place of sadness, but fuck you. My dog is a sweet dog from the pound. She was dumped there and left for a year because assholes like you didn’t give a fuck about another pit bull in the shelters. We didn’t adopt her because she’s from a “dangerous” breed. We adopted her in spite of that. We adopted her because she walked over, stuck her chin on my wife’s knee, and begged to have a home that would love her.
Don’t you fucking dare try to blame my dog for your problems. Don’t you fucking dare.
kuvasz
get a Kuvasz, you’ll never regret it.
Punchy
I’ve been saying for years (and trashed in the comments for it) that pits are ruthless killing machines. Finally Cole sees it. Gracias.
muddy
I had to euthanize a pit who I loved very much due to aggression. This was not a matter of training, I have had Rottweilers, a shepherd, other pits, and a mastiff mix amongst other strong-willed dogs. I had no problem training them, and people often noted how well behaved and what great dogs they were.
Then there was Nessa. She was a white pit, so sweet and so beautiful. And very aggressive by nature. The first day I brought her home, she leapt through the air to bite another dog on the neck as way of greeting. She had to leap 2x her own height to do it, she was a 4 month puppy and he was 125# pit mix. I had a much harder time getting her to mind than any dog I had previously. But it seemed okay, she did not attack the other cats and dogs anymore.
A neighbor’s cat came into the fenced yard. Nessa went for him, and the bigger dog joined in. I was right there and was able to get the cat away from them, of course the cat fucked me up as I was trying to get it back over the fence. I had several stitches on the head and at the hairline, it bled like a sonofabitch. Not your Zimmerman trickle.
Anyway, back to working on the training extra hard. The big dog was very upset about my reaction to the cat episode and didn’t even want to play with his own cats after that. Nessa did not exhibit shame, but it seemed okay. But then the stupid damned cat came into the yard again, and I was not right there. She not only killed the cat but tore it up. That white dog was red red red. So I stepped up the supervision and training of course.
But there was a big difference in her between the time she wounded the cat and the time she killed it. It was like a switch had gone off. She began to attack the other dog, and my cats, who were damned surprised. She was charging the fence at little kids walking past, snarling. When I chastised her for these things, she tried to bite me. One morning I woke up to find her standing over me with that wrong wrong look in her eyes, just inches from my face. I told her to move and she wouldn’t. I clocked her with the steel water bottle so that I could get up.
I took it up with professional trainers. I took it up with my vet. In the end I could not risk what she might do. She seemed so sweet when she wasn’t being vicious, but in a heartbeat she would just become bloodthirsty and have that demented look in the eye.
It was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do in my life. I have euthanized many pets when it came to their time, and felt I was helping them. I had never euthanized a young animal. My vet agreed with my choice, and said that most people would just take her to a shelter and let her be someone else’s problem.
Nessa the ungentle, my sweet pinky girl, was 3. Even now, years later, the guilt I feel is pretty overwhelming. On the other hand, I truly believe I made the best choice. Not every pit is a killer, and not every breed is good or bad. But the way she changed after the kill was truly remarkable. I do believe she was programmed that way. I think pits require more vigilance, and I say this as someone who loves the breed.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@JR: For someone who’s bitching about Cole making assumptions about dogs, you sure made a whole lot of them yourself in your comment.
Gex
I guess the way I think of it is this: they see, hear, and smell things that we cannot. So when they seem to “attack for no reason” I think it more likely we just don’t know what the reason is. We often don’t know, can’t know, what sets them off. I personally wouldn’t feel comfortable owning something that potentially deadly given that I can’t control or manage that which I cannot sense.
Aurona
The difference at the local dog park? Everyone scatters when a pit bull or part-pit arrives. We cannot trust them, because there have been too many biting or fighting incidents where the owner says, “Gee, he’s never done that before,” or some other lame excuse. The problem is that your best friend doggy may not get another chance because of the type of bite and kill instinct they have. AND the next time – it will be a child’s arm or neck. Sorry; having had dogs all my life, this is the breed that most concerns me and the one adults with their children at the dog park flee from. Pit bulls cannot be trusted with other dogs and most definitely not around children.
Punchy
@Cassidy: Wow. You’re a bigger asshole than I ever imagined. And thats saying something. Go DIAF.
Mandalay
@chrome agnomen:
Actually I was about to post the question in the previous thread, and then moved it here instead.
But having re-read this FP more carefully, my apologies to Cassidy….going after individual posters in an FP is pretty gutless.
(I still don’t agree with Cassidy, but I certainly understand why he is so angry now.)
muddy
@Gex: I was watching an episode of Dog Whisperer, and he had video guys having their cameras at dog level, one for each dog. Then they all went off, and you couldn’t tell who started it or why. So Cesar sits there looking at the individual videos, and finally sees it when he slows them way down. Then he could see the microsecond where there was a glance, a shift, and bang! they were all at it.
JR
@The prophet Nostradumbass: My only assumption is that Cole’s drunk, because otherwise he’s just being a shithead without an excuse.
Cole’s attacking my pet–who has never once done anything more threatening than growl with her tail tucked, has never harmed a person or animal, and who is so submissive it took over a year before she didn’t wet herself in the presence of most adult men–and he can accordingly go fuck himself twice, because my pets are my family, just like his are to him.
Viva BrisVegas
@JR:
Tick…tick…tick…
Suzanne
Most pit bulls ARE loving mutts, the vast majority of whom will live out their lives without hurting anyone.
Keith
Two of my cats were killed by a neighborhood dog. Want to guess which breed is *wasn’t* (hint: the one JC’s been going off the rails over)? It’s not that pits can be dangerous; it’s that large dogs can be dangerous. Rotts, German Shepherds, pits and other assorted terriers. Most of these are even uninsurable by homeowner’s bite insurance. As are Great Danes. Yet only one of these regularly gets people saying “this breed should be annihilated.”
And here’s food for thought: my cats went into the dog’s yard. They liked going outside, and I let them go outside. None of that was the dog’s fault, and none of that was the dog’s owner’s fault. Blame my (now gone) pit bull if you want – the cats were so used to a large friendly dog that they had no problem going into an unfriendly dog’s territory.
Ted & Hellen
PREACH
As I said the night sweet Tunch was murdered, and had said many times and will say many times again, Pit Bulls and their owners suck.
Couldn’t agree more Cole, especially the part about how many sweet dogs are put down while precious resources are wasted saving potential killers.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@JR: until that dog chomps onto someone’s arm, or neck, and then you’ll tell animal control that it came out of the blue. Even though you adopted it “in spite of” it being a dangerous breed. Uh Huh.
Aurona
@Mandalay: Sorry, that knucklehead went after me, too, so LOSER.
Corner Stone
Hmmm, seems like Cole is Cassidy’s prey for tonight.
Face
@Suzanne: And the small minority that do hurt someone will likely kill or severly maim that person/pet. Good luck playing the Pit Lotto. Hope the gamble pays off.
kc
Oh, take a Xanax.
David
I posted before on this same subject. I have a Black Lab/Dalmatian. The animal spent 6 years in small yard with an 8 ft privacy fence and no play/interaction/communication other than an 80 year old woman trying to take said 106 lb animal to the vet for proper care (shots…etc). She died of cancer………………..I have said 106lb DOG. He is tough. he barks. He has hurt this 56 year old cancer/heart attack survivor. SOB. Tell me. Please tell me how I KILL him. There is not a vet in this town that will do it. I will buy you dinner here in my home town if you can tell me how to put this dog down humanely.
Otherwise shut the FUCK up about it and quit feeling sorry for yourself. We al have some difficult issues in our lives.
Cassidy
@Punchy: Yeah, I wrote you off a long time ago when you bitched that children being raped fucked up your tailgating. You first shithead.
@Spaghetti Lee: I did say that. I didn’t say he deserved it or had it coming. No one deserved anything and shit happens. No dogs deserve to be put down just for the sin of existing, Tunch didn’t deserve to die because he wanted some sunlight, and Cole didn’t deserve to be heartbroken. In the end though, blaming a breed and hoping they get killed off because humans are worthless sacks of shit is wrong. You’re blaming the wrong goddamn species.
JR
@The prophet Nostradumbass: You say “until” as if it’s an inevitability, because you’re a stupid asshole. You don’t know my dog. You know a caricature of my dog that fuckwits like you and local news anchors have spread as gospel for a few decades. But hey, it’s not like we’re talking about a member of your family here, right? So who cares that you’re talking out of your ass?
The prophet Nostradumbass
@JR: No, I’m saying it because I’m deliberately trying to (and succeeding at) make you mad, because I think you’re an asshole.
Yatsuno
@Suzanne: That’s not the issue. The real issue is there is no way to tell, especially coming from outside the family unit, whether the pit you’re about to encounter is indeed a complete marshmallow or something else. And let’s face it, the vast majority of pit owners are nowhere near as responsible as you when it comes to their animal. The fact is it’s a crapshoot. And too many people end up on the wrong side of the dice.
Narcissus
I only ever had trouble with one of the dogs in my neighborhood, and it was a Pit. It went after a neighborhood cat that happened to be in my front yard and I happened to be outside. Most dogs I’ve ever had any contact with at all might chase other animals but are suitably chastised when a human being intervenes. This one I swear was just sizing me up. It wasn’t afraid of me at all. It basically seemed not to be domesticated. It was owned by a young white male who seemed to see it as some sort of macho status symbol.
Aurona
Perhaps all of the pit bull lovers can go to a dog park – without a dog – and observe for a while what happens when a pit bull enters the territory. The whole dynamic changes, and instead of dogs chasing each other, and playing tug of war with a stick, they are now in an aggressive stand off with the pit. And then watch parents grab their child’s hand, get the dog on a leash and say, “We have to go now.”
It’s a good test. I recommend all of you lovers of pit bulls try that little test and “report back to class.”
John Cole
@Cassidy:
Fuck you, cunt, with a big C.
It was because of the fucking breed and her behavior I felt uncomfortable with her in my house. So when my brother brought her over, I said I do not want her here. Seth said fine, I will put her outside. And he did. Two minutes prior, Tunch had been in his bedroom sleeping. I guess he went outside. In thirty seconds, the pit went out back and broke my fucking cat’s neck.
If your argument is everyone needs to be more careful so you fucking penis deficient douchebags can run around with killing machines, well, then, fuck off. And if not, well fuck off anyway. I hope your pits don’t kill you, but if they were to bite your balls off, I’d probably laugh. But you’ll probably just buy a bigger pick up truck to compensate.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Yatsuno: Exactly. It’s something these “but my pit bull is a sweetheart” people seem to intentionally not understand.
Suzanne
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Jesus. What if the dug NEVER BITES ANYONE?! The vast majority of pits never do.
I think lots of people, Cole included, are convinced that breed is destiny. Statements like “Steve has a great personality, must be the Maine Coon in him!” prove that. My pet-owning experience has been the opposite: I have had three Siberian Huskies, each of whom was so different from the others that I’m still not convinced that they were all dogs at all. I had a Maine Coon who was very shy and skittish. I had a Cocker Spaniel who was submissive because she’d been beaten. While I certainly acknowledge the fact that statistics indicate that pits, as a breed, are more dangerous than most other breeds, that doesn’t say shit about any dog, especially my dog, as an individual. Her personality is shaped by the loving treatment she is given, and the training she receives, just as much by her breed. Therefore, I find the call to kill my fucking pet pretty offensive.
JR
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Well, having lived with an asshole your whole life, we can only assume you’re a good judge of when one is present.
Punchy
@Cassidy: Link to where I said that or your the biggest fucking liar on this blog. Wait….we already knew that. Nevermind.
Do us all a favor and self-immolate.
JR
@Suzanne: Amen.
Spaghetti Lee
@Cassidy:
I don’t disagree, and I definitely agree that some of the problems pit bulls have are due to scumbags who breed them for aggression and violence for their dog fights. Fuck those people. If they were bred more responsibly, perhaps things would be different.
If I was a person whose small pet or child was killed or horribly maimed by a pit, though, I’m not sure the distinction would matter. Whether it’s inborn or due to bad breeding and training, lots of people are nervous around pit bulls, and they have good reason to be, statistically speaking.
This is not some arbitrary thing, people picking on pit bulls just because they randomly decided to. Read this list and notice how often pit and pit mixes come up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States Even Rottweilers are usually a pretty distant second, especially in recent years.
I can understand why pit bull owners and pit bull lovers get angry. If someone told me my pets or hobbies were so dangerous, I’d try to prove them wrong too, and sure I’d get angry about that. But I think the pro-pit bull contingent needs to recognize that people aren’t trying to personally attack them or saying they’re bad people, they’re just looking at risks. And there’s got to be a better response than “Well MY Pit is an absolute sweetie who wouldn’t hurt a fly.” If you’re right, that’s great, I wish you the best, but what if you’re wrong? There’s a reason “He’s never been aggressive before” is so often the response from someone whose dog killed or maimed someone.
John Cole
@Cassidy: And I’ll take 10000 Ted and Helen’s over you, you fucking self-centered gutter trash. Again, hope your pits never kill anyone, but if they do, you got to feel cool owning a really sweet killing machine, and it was cool until the first murder. So get off on your bad self, you anal drip of a human being.
Suzanne
@Yatsuno: You’re right, many pit owners aren’t as responsible as they need to be. However, IMO, that means we should better train owners and require them to take their dogs to obedience classes and keep them confined, not kill the dogs themselves.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Suzanne: I haven’t called to kill anyone’s pet. I personally think that people should have a special license to own a pit bull/pit mix dog, and be required to go through special training so that animal control in particular can be sure that the dog isn’t a future loose cannon.
JR
@John Cole: Again, go fuck yourself. Seth had a BAD DOG. Those exist in every fucking breed. My pit and my cat have never had a fight, even though my cat regularly beats my dog up. Your experience is not fucking universal, so please shut the ever-loving fuck up.
Aurona
@JR: We, or at least, I, have a face-to-face confrontation with an attacking pit bull. And – the owner ran away. Perhaps it is because the dog has bitten and maimed more than three other dogs? Will the next bite be a child? Only time will tell.
Mandalay
@Aurona:
WTF??? From reading the thread the opposite is true….you went after Cassidy. And I have offered no opinion either way on pit bulls…I just stated that I think it’s gutless for an FPer to go after someone in an FP post.
You can go fuck yourself asshole.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@JR: I never claimed I wasn’t an asshole, now, did I?
Cassidy
@Aurona: @John Cole: Actaully, and this is for both of you, we own a JRT who’s about 13 y/o and a Siberian. The Husky is my wife’s dog.
@John Cole: Feel better yet?
Suzanne
……aaaaand we’re calling people “cunt”.
Awesome.
Totally fucking offended.
mch
My English springer has never shown signs of springer madness (that problem has been greatly reduced by careful breeding), but we did watch for it in her early year or two. No matter that she’s the sweetest thing. One of our cats still acts like our springer is a dread monster while the other now plays with her (in that pretend-you-re-scared/too proud to care way of cats).
Every dog — every single dog — is a potential injurer/killer. (Which is one of the reasons we love them, no? Their defense of us? Not to mention their effectiveness against, e.g., rabbits and deer and all between who threaten our gardens, from which we eat.) Even the tiniest, sweetest dog will “nip” a child, no?
Which is not to defend pit bulls (though some of the finestl dogs I have ever known were pit bulls).
Rather, it is to remind us all of the responsibilities we take on in making dogs and cats part of our lives. A very serious responsibility.
kc
@David:
I remember your post from before. That sounds like an awful situation for you. If you can’t find a shelter that will take the dog, maybe try googling around for a lab rescue or Dalmatian rescue org. Maybe you can find one in your area that will take him?
JR
@Spaghetti Lee: Unless you’re calling for genocide against dogs like mine, you seem to be favoring strict liability for dogs. GREAT! I think every animal attack perpetrated by a pet should result in strict liability against the owner, and I would absolutely bear that risk for my dog. (In fact, I already do: I live in Maryland, where pits and their owners are held to strict liability.)
As someone carrying a scar from a dog attack on my face every day for the past twenty years, I’d rather we actually embrace ideas that don’t blame breeds, but owners who fail to train and restrain their animals.
JR
@Aurona: And fuck that owner, too. May he be sued into oblivion. And if the dog is dangerous–which it sounds like–then by all means do what needs to be done. Just don’t blame my dog for the sins of another and expect me to tolerate it.
Keith
@Suzanne: You’re only now being offended by this thread? Welcome to the club. It’s a shit thread from start to finish. Blame the owner.
Face
@Suzanne: Stats say pits are more likely to kill. Sure, it doesnt mean yours in particular is dangerous. But the breed in general is unpredictable. Ergo, keep your dog out of the dog park, playground, and on a leash at all times and we’re cool. However, most pit owners wont….
JR
@The prophet Nostradumbass: We hold that truth to be self-evident.
Mandalay
This is what this thread needs.
Cassidy
@Spaghetti Lee: I don’t think people are wrong to be skittish. Pits are not meant for suburbia. They are a large, strong, dominant breed of dog. They require lots of exercise and socialization AND, this is where people fuck up on any “fighting breed”, are fiercely protective and you don’t know what they consider a threat.
I am all for regulation. I’m all for residential ordinances. I can’t get behind the eradication of a breed because people are shits. Every story someone here tells about a bad pit bull involves a shithead person. Why is that the dog’s fault? Why are we going to kill them for the sin of existing?
sparky
@JR: So you can see into the future like Nostradamus? You’re dog “hasn’t” doesn’t equal “will.”
People don’t like the fucking breed because of its unpredictability.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Keith: No, she was already offended in the previous thread, and threatened to leave permanently.
Cassidy
@John Cole: Bring it you drunk motherfucker. Gutter trash? You live in fucking West Virginia dumbass. I live in Florida. I may have been poor, white trash, but I was never a gutter punk. lol
What else you got? Go pour another one first. I’ll get another beer.
Corner Stone
@Keith:
But most of his threads up to now have been very sweet and about aggressive loving.
How could he possibly be to blame now?
kc
Whatever happened to the pit bull mix that murdered Tunch, btw?
Suzanne
@Face: I have never taken mine to a dog park. I have taken her, while on leash, to parks, playgrounds and hiking trails. I never allow her to go near anyone who isn’t her people. She is never allowed off leash outside of my yard. She has been temperament-tested by two veterinarians.
The dogs don’t deserve to be killed because of the sins of their owners.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Cassidy:
Followed by
Right.
JR
@sparky: Some people don’t like the breed because of sensationalism and rare bad owners who train them to kill. Most pit bulls and Staffies are gentle, patient, submissive, and great family dogs. Like every dog, with rare exceptions it takes work to screw one up.
Cassidy
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Shit son, I’ve only had one and just cracked the second.
stiv
Fuck off, jr and cassidy.
Boohoo, people calling pit bulls ferocious just to hurt your poor lil feelings.
I’ve been attacked and bit at a fucking dog park by a pit bull.
My dog has been attacked and bit by a pit bull at same park.
They weren’t YOUR pit bulls.
Pit bulls suck and their owners either are or aren’t responsible.
It doesnt matter.
Mackenna
John, while I’d like to agree because of the number of stories about pit bull attacks, I’m bothered by the fact that when I was growing up and nobody had ever heard of pitbulls and few if any people owned one, people claimed EXACTLY THE SAME THING about Dobermans.
Dobermans, we were told in the 70s and 80s, were genetically wired to maim, kill, and maul. They were unpredictable and unreliable and people shouldn’t own one. These dogs were popular with dumbasses who used them as guard dogs, and trained them to be vicious, or brought out the viciousness in them. Even though I grew up with dogs and loved dogs I was always terrified of Dobermans because the media pummeled us with stories about them. I would cross the street to avoid a Doberman encounter.
When was the last time any of us read about vicious Dobermans and how scary and unpredictable they are? I can’t remember. I am no longer afraid of Dobermans and greet them as I would any other dog. All the Dobermans I encounter seem like any other dog.
So I’m not sure it isn’t the owners.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Cassidy: Son? How old are you?
sparky
@Suzanne:
Damn, I promised myself to be nice on the intertubes and not say nasty things.
John Cole
@Cassidy:
So much explanation in so few words.
Spaghetti Lee
@Cassidy:
I’m not calling for extermination. In two threads, one person has said something that could be interpreted that way. John was saying in a thread from July that got linked that he was in the kill-all-pit-bulls camp, but that was the night Tunch died. Maybe you feel differently, but unless John says he stands by it, I’m willing to give him a mulligan.
At most, people are calling for sterilization/ending the breeding, not rounding up existing pets and killing them all off. I don’t really have that strong an opinion on the merits of liability, training, sterilization, neutering, etc. what works and what doesn’t. What set me off was that I felt you and Suzanne were being just completely dishonest about what the other side was saying, throwing around genocide and comparing people to mass murderers and all that.
Pat H
The French love their dogs. It’s not at all uncommon to see someone’s dog sitting under her table at a restaurant–and not just little dogs either. However there are strict laws regarding dogs classed as dangerous (including Pitbulls and Rottweillers, pedigreed or not), all of which must be muzzled and on a leash in public at all times. The owner must obtain and carry a permit from the town hall of any place she resides in and is subject to fines and imprisonment if she does not comply. She is also required to carry proof of third-party public-liability insurance along with a vet’s assessment of the dog’s behavior and a certificate of the owner’s competency following a course by a licensed trainer.
http://france.angloinfo.com/family/pets/restrictions-on-animals/
Suzanne
@The prophet Nostradumbass: I don’t have to, nor do I, agree with John about everything in order to enjoy posting here. I think he’s made a great community and I enjoy it very much. But if I’m going to be treated to another round of you’re-an-asshole-for-owning-a-killing-machine on a daily basis, then fuck it.
Not to mention, using the word “cunt” is about as offensive as it gets. That’s a pretty horrible thing to say.
ranchandsyrup
My friend says we’re like the dinosaurs
Only we are doing oursevles in
Much faster then they ever did…
We’ll make great pets!
Mackenna
John, while I’d like to agree because of the number of stories about pit bull attacks, I’m bothered by the fact that when I was growing up and nobody had ever heard of pitbulls and few if any people owned one, people claimed EXACTLY THE SAME THING about Dobermans.
Dobermans, we were told in the 70s and 80s, were genetically wired to maim, kill, and maul. They were unpredictable and unreliable and people shouldn’t own one. These dogs were popular with dumbasses who used them as guard dogs, and trained them to be vicious, or brought out the viciousness in them. Even though I grew up with dogs and loved dogs I was always terrified of Dobermans because the media pummeled us with stories about them. I would cross the street to avoid a Doberman encounter.
When was the last time any of us read about vicious Dobermans and how scary and unpredictable they are? I can’t remember. I am no longer afraid of Dobermans and greet them as I would any other dog. All the Dobermans I encounter seem like any other dog.
So I’m not sure it isn’t the owners.
Punchy
@Cassidy: You get ’em, tough guy! Nothing like anonymous internet threats to show yer toughness!
eemom
What sad, sick shit this is, and a disgrace among people who purport to be animal lovers.
And yes, Cole, you’re a fucking drunk asshole for doubling down.
“Breeding” of animals to indulge human whims is fucked up from the get go. The blame — all of it — is on the human “breeders”, not on the dogs — and fuck anyone who makes any animal out to be a malicious killing machine.
Corner Stone
@Suzanne:
So you essentially have Hannibal Lecter on a leash?
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Corner Stone: LOL
Anne Laurie
@kuvasz:
Oh, lordy, I can picture it now… Cole decides his Kuvasz just isn’t happy without using his inbred skills, so he starts taking him to herding trials. And buys a flock of ducks ‘for practice’. And moves up to sheep — or llamas. Hey, WV is full of lovely hilly scenery, Cole can start a tourist industry trekking with pack llamas!
Suzanne
@sparky: Thanks. And you’ll never see one.
@Spaghetti Lee: That’s absolutely untrue. Two people advocated for killing all pits in the last thread.
John Rogers
Jesus, John, I’ve been a fan of yours forever, but this is getting crazy.
According to the American Humane Society, 94% of fatal dog attacks (on humans) are caused by UN-NEUTERED DOGS. That’s the problem far, far more than breed-based concerns. I’d also note that the Humane Society believes, based on their research, breed-based discrimination is worse than useless, it’s counterproductive. Several studies show that small dogs are more likely to bite, but as they’re non-fatal they under-report. Big enough to kill a cat or fuck up a kid, though.
I saw a poodle snap the neck of a toy dog one time. Dogpile at the dogpark, nastiness, got it in her mouth and they were done.
My wife’s face was literally torn apart by a collie when she was a child.
A friend of ours was viciously attacked by the Welsh Corgi she and her husband had owned for five years, tore her arm open to the bone.
The Scottie Terrier on the next block killed so many neighborhood cats they finally put it down …
You talk about what a waste it is to adopt pits when people could be adopting sweet dogs — but the truth is any single one of those “sweet” dogs could go off if not treated, trained, or handled properly. Or, frankly, go off by straight damn luck.
Every dog’s a loaded gun. Every dog’s two meals away from being a wolf. I get you’re angry, but you’re shitting on the beloved companions of people (not to mention the, you know, actual people) who work very hard to properly take care of their pets, to neuter and train them, to be responsible owners.
And that’s the thing — and this may piss you off, and I’m sorry, but it’s true — your brother-in-law was not a responsible owner.
It’s not your fault Tunch is dead. But it certainly as shit is his.
My non-pit pound dog plays with and sleeps with the three cats he lives with. Yay. Would I EVER let him off his leash near a cat he wasn’t living with and been socialized with? Christ no. Would I EVER let a dog, no matter what the breed, which hadn’t been socialized with my cats into my house, not on a leash? Christ no.
You’re entitled to your anger. I’d be fucking furious if that happened to me. But they’d be pulling me off the human’s chest. Because he’s the one who fucked up.
ConsistentLiberal
I guess the irony of this situation escapes you, considering that you are responsible for the killing of dozens of animals yourself each year – all of them docile and presenting no harm to your or anyone else.
Should we put you (and all the other hypocrites) out of your misery?
Punchy
@Suzanne: The C-word is what drives you off this site? Are you new or not a regular reader? Thicken that skin!
RobNYNY1957
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf
Yeah, yeah, no specific breed. Check to see how many poodles, labradors, and terriers are on that list.
There are killer breeds.
Howard Beale IV
@John Cole: Of for crying out loud, can you give it a rest?
Can you not think that had you not adopted Tunch when you did he’d be nothing but ashes just days later?
Basta!
Keith
@Corner Stone: But he’s German. Folks should know better.
Cassidy
@John Cole: Hehehe, get it out your system big guy. I may not be able to draw you purty pictures in crayon, but I can take your half-hearted insults. I’ve been called everything but a white man by people I love and adore, and I only like you. It’s okay to be angry.
Face
Christ, just when you think a thread cant get more toxic, eemom comes in to drop some whitey pete.
JR
@John Rogers: Amen!
Cassidy
@Punchy: Wow, you don’t catch a lot do you? Keep your fantasies to yourself.
@ConsistentLiberal: Hell yeah, veganism. Now this is a motherfuckin’ party.
Corner Stone
@John Rogers:
Are you sure that number is correct? Isn’t it closer to say, 27% or so?
Spaghetti Lee
@Suzanne:
TCG did. Who’s the other one? Triassic Sands called for euthanizing hypothetically-illegal imports. You seem worried about people yanking your dog away and killing it. That is not what the vast majority of people arguing against you are saying. One guy has said ‘kill all pit bulls unconditionally’, compared to about 15 who have argued against the breed without saying that.
kc
@Spaghetti Lee:
I don’t know how much more clear Cole could be about how he feels about these dogs.
Howard Beale IV
@John Rogers: +1
Suzanne
@Punchy: I expect not to be called a sex-based insult by a member of a group of people who purport to believe in equality for women, yes.
Ted & Hellen
@Aurona:
I maintain that this is a feature, not a bug, for Pit owners. The LOVE that most people fear their dogs and make way or leave altogether. That way, the owner gets to feel both a twisted sense of power thru the dog, and also a twisted sense of self righteous victimization at the INJUSTICE! of all these people passing judgement on their poor, sweet bloodthirsty snookums.
Yatsuno
@Mackenna:
Back then, all of that was true. There was a huge push in the 80s to breed aggression out of the Doberman breed that was largely successful. Today’s Dobie is very different from the dogs that were around 30 years ago but it was because of the terrible reputation that threatened the dogs with extinction. A friend of mine breeds Dobies and he was part of the selection for breeding more even and gentle temperaments. Such breeding is not happening with pit bulls. In fact, if anything, more aggression is being bred in. Dogs like Suzanne’s need to have puppies carefully screened so that the aggression genes can be eliminated.
JR
@Corner Stone: http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/dog-bites.html
gbear
@Suzanne:
So you’re saying that you take extreme precautions with your dog. It sounds like it. Wow.
What everyone else has been saying is that owners (who are not you) bring their pit bulls to the dog park and let them run free, and that these are the dogs and owners that no one is willing to trust because these are the pit bulls that wind up hurting other peoples’ dogs. When people are saying they’re not willing to trust ANY pit bull, it’s because it really is a crap shoot as to whether the pit bull at the park is going to have a good owner.
And from the sounds of how you manage your dog, these other people and dogs are never going to meet up with your highly disciplined dog, so they’ll have to judge pit bulls via the examples they actually cross paths with.
sparky
@JR: Staffies aint pit bulls. “Pit” bulls are bred to fight each other; anybody else in the “pit” is fair game.
You guys (looking at Cassidy in his derangement period) arguing that breeds that are bred to be bad-assed are the same as pit bulls are wrong. Rottweilers, German Shepards, Bulldogs, Dobbies etc. were bred to control other creatures, not maim/kill their opponents.
Mackenna
@Cassidy: Florida is nothing to brag about. Seriously.
Listen people, this thread has more snarling and gnashing of teeth than a dog fight. Can we put the insane behaviour to rest?
John Cole
This is a funny thread. It’s almost like my cat was not murdered by a pit bull mix three weeks ago. Or Jen Jen’s dog wasn’t attacked and almost killed by pit bull tonight. She’s still in tears, but Stanley came out of surgery ok, so after a couple thousand dollars and more tears, she’ll be ok. Or Ginny was never attacked by a pit at a dog park. Or any of the hundreds of other stories we could all share.
Really, the victims here are pit bulls, who are being maligned.
It’s this simple. You own a pit bull, or pit mix, you might as well walk around with a shotgun doing heroin. And hey- if the gun should go off, well, you know, thousands of other shotguns around the nation never hurt anyone.
Gun owners and dangerous dog owners. The same breed of self-deluded stupidity.
But really, Cassidy and Suzanne, we’ll all feel really bad for you when your dog kills someone. Why, the horror you will probably go through. Writing this as I sit on the back porch looking at Tunch’s grave.
Go give your four legged gun a kiss.
JR
@gbear: FWIW, I take my pit to the dog park. She sniffs asses, universally submits to the other dogs there, and spends far more time trying to get head pats and treats from other owners than she does playing with other dogs.
sparky
@Suzanne: Nigger, please.
Suzanne
@Yatsuno: Mine’s a spayed female, and she’s a mix. They think pit/Labrador, but of course, they can never be sure. So no puppies.
Mackenna
@Yatsuno: So you’ve essentially proved my point that HUMANS are the problem. Not the animal. If humans are breeding aggression in and out, this is human-engineered.
Dobermans were a problem because of humans.
Dobermans are no longer a problem because of humans.
SomeRandomChick
Wow, I usually am a few days behind reading the threads here. I have to say, seeing this all unspool in real time is kind of surreal.
John Rogers
@Corner Stone: Heh. No, 27%’s the number for crazy libertarian biters …
Link — http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/dog-bites.html
Mackenna
Just want to mention poodles can be horribly vicious. My sister-in-law owned a standard poodle that routinely attacked everything that wasn’t family. When I went to visit, they had to lock the dog in a room until it got used to me. I never entirely trusted it and that dog could never be off the leash.
JR
@John Cole: MY DOG DIDN’T KILL YOUR CAT, SO STOP FUCKING BLAMING HER FOR IT.
You think this honors Tunch somehow, attacking our pets? Fuck you for that, Cole.
Ted & Hellen
@Suzanne:
You kind of like feeling that way though, don’t you? All self righteously defending your poor misunderstood potential killer that makes everyone else nervous when they see it? Delicious, isn’t it.
Corner Stone
@John Cole:
That’s not very fucking fair. MY shotgun is very sweet and has never shot anyone! I keep it lubed and on a leash at all times and never, ever leave it in a room with any child.
Punchy
@Suzanne: I think he called Cassidy that moniker (apropos, IMO). Pretty sure he did not label you such. My point was that this blog has never been shy to allow such offensive terms, and if you’re so offended, there are other much less fun and less interesting blogs to follow.
Mandalay
@John Rogers:
Please keep your intelligent comments, and relevant and informative data that would lead to a much better appreciation and understanding of the real issues for everyone, well away from this thread. It will only confuse us.
Thanks.
Cassidy
@Mackenna: Fuck no it’s not. I’ve said it before and will say it here, this place is a shithole. If you’re AA or a woman, get the fuck out. Some cracker is going to try to control your uterus/ vagina or kill you at some point. I wasn’t bragging. The only reason I came back to this place was for family and that was a fucking bust. I should’ve stayed gone.
@John Cole: How much have you had to drink? I’ve already said I have no guns and no pit bull. I wouldn’t own one. I live in an apartment complex and it would be irresponsible to own a dog of that size and keep it enclosed with no yard to run in. It would also be irresponsible to own a gun as I’m partial to 1911’s. If I actually used it, it would go through a wall. Get it off your chest, man. Keep it coming. What else you want to call me?
Ted & Hellen
@Suzanne:
Poor thing.
kc
@SomeRandomChick:
Yeah, it’s awesome watching all that good will we felt after Tunch’s death go swirling down the toilet.
Keith
True Staffordshires aren’t very common. What is common are people claiming their dogs are Staffies so that they can get bite provisions added to their homeowner’s insurance or so that their neighbors don’t wet their pants because they’re around a dreaded pit bull.
Yatsuno
@Suzanne: Well, there are genetic tests, but if she’s spayed then there doesn’t seem to be any real point in getting that done. Seems a shame though, the lack of aggression needs to get started somewhere.
@Mackenna: Dobermans were created to guard German tax collectors. There are still lines bred for guard dog purposes but those are specifically not sold as general purpose dogs. If you want to change the reputation of pit bulls, start getting the aggression out of the blood lines. Otherwise these incidents are going to keep happening.
Suzanne
@John Cole: I can share stories, too. Like how I was bitten by a completely unprovoked border collie. But your anecdotal evidence beats mine, somehow.
Once again, the vast majority of pit bulls NEVER HURT ANYONE, human or animal.
kc
@John Cole:
That’s right, keep that pot boiling.
John Rogers
@John Cole:
Predicting Cassidy and Suzanne’s dog WILL eventually kill something or someone is shitty.
Dude, both those beloved pound dogs you have could just have easily gone off and killed a cat. Not Tunch, because he was socialized with them, but a strange cat? Hell yeah.
Every dog on earth is capable of that. Every. Dog.
I’d note there is a LOT of hubris in this thread by non-pit owners. When one of your non-pit dogs gets the wrong stimulus, or freaked out, or crowded on a hot day, or has his predator/prey response triggered and bites someone or kills something, I look forward to the anguished confessionals about the dangers of their breed — or not, as with your dog, it was just a one time accident.
eemom
@Yatsuno:
Jesus H.C.
Fer realz, nobody here thinks that there’s anything remotely questionable — or even worthy of discussion — about the institutionalization of Dr Mengele’s system of medical ethics — as long as the victims are animals rather than fellow humans?
Yatsuno
@Suzanne:
I can believe this. For every happy border collie on a farm, there are just as many that are neglected/unutilised/bored that will lash out because their instincts are not being used. Nevertheless I’m sorry that happened.
@eemom: Breeding of dogs has been happening for thousands of years. It’s not like it’s a recently developed phenomenon. Jeez you’re better than this. Temperaments and desired traits get selected out of all kinds of animals and plants constantly. Or should we just go back to the little hard apple that developed in Kazakhstan? Or just allow all dogs to revert to their wild genetic state?
Violet
@John Cole: Thanks for the update on JenJen and Stanley. So glad he came through okay.
Gravenstone
Made it about 40 posts in before tossing in the towel. Way to douse your little community in gasoline, before striking that match.
Anne Laurie
@ConsistentLiberal: Oh, great, all this thread needed was for the PETAn to show up…
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Suzanne: If you think a border collie will try to kill you, well, you’re nuts.
What’s next, you were gummed by a Yorkie?
ConsistentLiberal
Does there exist a place on the internet that has more hypocrites?
Seriously, you all need to STFU with this nonsense.
Not a single one of you gives a shit about animals. I think you just like to make senseless arguments and rationalize your hypocrisy.
John Cole, if we’re putting down animals that are killers of other animals, your name would be first on the list. Go to bed.
John Rogers
@Mandalay: Yeah, well, I always fuck it up by going and dragging data in. Like I’ve said, we really need a catchy iconograph/tattoo symbol for “The plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’.”
Spaghetti Lee
@Punchy:
The argument goes that it hurts all women, even if it’s not directed at a woman or used specifically to denigrate women: it’s an explicitly ‘female’ taunt, so it makes female-ness automatically in insult on its own. Dick, prick, cock, and the like used as insults get a pass because, well, because. I guess getting rid of those would reduce us to repeating the same few over and over gets boring. On that note, I’m also suspicious of the truism that everything bad that men do is because they’re insecure about their penises and feel the need to lash out. ‘Feminine hysteria’ hasn’t been a medically sound excuse for a while, but is there such a thing as ‘masculine hysteria?’ Phallopsychosis, we could call it.
I’m sorry, folks. I agree that women deserve fair treatment at work, that sexual harassment is far more normalized than it should be, that women’s health care should not be the fucked up situation that it is, and so on, but I just can’t get on board with an insult being verboten, regardless of the context, because it’s intrinsically worse than all the others. I throw myself on the mercy of the court, and expect none.
Keith
People are already doing that. There are lines (i.e. blue pits) that are bred for show compliance and not for fighting. That’s the kind of pit I had, and even unneutered, he never even growled in the entire time I had him. So all this talk about “pits can be sweet…until they’re not” ticks me off because I had one that was sweet…and was NEVER not. I raised him spoiled, but he had the docile bred into him; it was just how he was.
Next thing you know, you’ll be saying that if we want to trust Muslims, they should first denounce terrorism (yeah, I went there).
Badtux
@Cassidy: The point is that my cat could be in my back yard and if the neighbor’s pit manages to dig under the fence, my cat is dead. And don’t say that it’s my job to intercept a pit bull in my back yard or supervise my cat in my back yard. Because it isn’t. It just isn’t.
Frankly, if I were John I would have already edited all your messages to say “I Like Pie” because they are pretty much the same as defending having a loaded gun in a house with children — basically saying some theoretical right to have a loaded dangerous weapon is more important than the lives of those children (who, I might add, I can publish a story per week on my blog about another child killed by their parents’ loaded guns without even digging hard). It’s dangerous and irresponsible to have that kind of weapon in a place where it can kill. The only proper place for a pit bull is in a cage far, far away from me and mine. And if I ever encounter one of your pit bulls on my property, it is getting five rounds of buckshot as fast as I can pump my Mossberg 12 gauge, and I’ll swear up and down that I was in fear for my life and acting to defend myself. Which is true enough, because every single one of the damned things is a killer, no matter how docile it behaves in the presence of its pack leader/owner.
One last thing: A pit bull is an animal. Not a person. There is no right to life for animals in our Constitution, as much as PETA wishes there were. I eat animals all the time. I have no compunctions at all about killing dangerous animals that threaten me and mine. None. Zero. Nada. Period.
eemom
@John Cole:
Yes, a machine is EXACTLY the same thing as a living creature.
Honestly, go sleep it off. You’re out of obnoxious and into pathetic.
Mackenna
@Cassidy: I don’t want to pull a Chris Crocker but you really need to leave John Cole alone. He is grieving. He misses Tunch. He’s entitled to blow off steam and yell about pit bulls.
Give it a rest. He is hurting. You aren’t.
The prophet Nostradumbass
“Consistent Liberal” has spoken, this thread needs to be shut down. The definitive word has been given.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@eemom: You don’t think a dog can be used as an offensive weapon, the same way as a gun?
gorram
People are more concerned about the bad rap pit bulls get than the bad rap Black people get.
Let that sink in for a second.
Cassidy
Hell, I was bitten by a dog when I was about 3 or 4. On my face! I still have the scars. She wasn’t a pit, but she just had puppies. I would assume she was some sort for lab mix, but it was at my cousin’s farm. They didn’t put her down and I’m glad.
sparky
@Cassidy: Hey. You don’t have a dog in this fight.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@gorram: Uh, no. Nice try.
Keith
@John Cole: And when your cat was killed, you were imploring your readers to pray for the poor owner and caretaker of the pit who did the deed. Three weeks later, when it’s not a family member owning the dog, you’re advocating putting down an entire breed and telling anyone and everyone “fuck you, you’re all anti-social, while my dogs are the greatest”, claiming every owner of a pit is an asshole and all but the worst human beings on the planet.
The bi-polar is strong with this one.
Mandalay
@John Rogers:
Well you are absolutely correct. Some interesting stats…
Howard Beale IV
@John Cole: Seems to me you’re still stuck on stage 3 of Kubler-Ross’s loss stage-ya best better move on, otherwise you may be in a much worse mental state than you’re at now.
And that, Mr. Cole, I don’t wish on my worst enemy. But hey-own your indignation-but realize that wrapping yourself around that is a dead end, and is keeping you stuck.
Yatsuno
@Badtux:
Why do you make the ConstantLiberal cry?
Ted & Hellen
@eemom:
Wow.
Eemom, I did not know you are completely nuts.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Keith:
The Rick Santorum is strong in you.
eemom
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
Yes, from the perspective of the fucked up piece of shit human “user” — but that’s not what Cole and others are talking about here. They are equating the animal itself with the machine.
Corner Stone
@Keith:
Yeah, but he was thinking it. The whole time he was just waiting.
Punchy
@ConsistentLiberal: yes, you figured us out. We all hate animals. None of us give 2 shits about out dogs/cats. Nice detective work.
sparky
@eemom: You win the thread with that nutty comment. You might’ve gone where no commenter has gone: beyond Godwin.
Spaghetti Lee
@Punchy:
The argument goes that it hurts all women, even if it’s not directed at a woman or used specifically to denigrate women: it’s an explicitly ‘female’ taunt, so it makes female-ness automatically in insult on its own. “Male” insults get a pass because, well, because. I guess getting rid of those would reduce us to repeating the same few over and over and that gets boring.
I’m sorry, folks. I agree that women deserve fair treatment at work, that sexual harassment is far more normalized than it should be, that women’s health care should not be the fucked up situation that it is, and so on, but I just can’t get on board with an insult being verboten, regardless of the context, because it’s intrinsically worse than all the others. I throw myself on the mercy of the court, and expect none.
Cassidy
@Mackenna: I know he’s hurting. And he’s spoiling for a fight. He’s angry, feels guilty about both Tunch’s death and enjoying owning Steve. He can’t yell at his Sister and BIL, although he should think about writing a letter to them and getting that off his chest. He’s checked out on his blog. So now he’s got his target. And that’s cool. He ain’t hurting my feelings.
Keith
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Fuck you.
eemom
@Ted & Hellen:
I, on the other hand, have come to terms with the fact that you are, in fact, nothing more than a sociopathic provocateur on this blog — however fine a fellow you may be IRL.
JR
I take a lot of comfort in the fact that my donation to MARC in Tunch’s memory will probably do more to help innocent pit bulls than ignorant attacks like those on this thread will ever hurt them. I’m proud to help activists like Sue who fight against breed-specific legislation and work to improve the lives of dogs and cats of all breeds.
That is a fitting tribute for someone’s beloved pet.
John Rogers
@Mandalay: You’re ruining it with MORE STATISTICS! STOP IT.
Joking aside, the thing to take away from this is for people to not become complacent around any particular breed of dog, and to keep their dogs on leash — again, regardless of breed — when in unfamiliar places. And get the goddamn things neutered.
JordanRules
@sparky: What in the entire fuck?!?! You could not possibly think that response to her was just some snarky point about how you want to dismiss her feelings because Cole threw that hard C out there and she needs to grow a thicker skin. That was something else. What? I don’t fuckin know, but it was something else.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Keith: Well, you seem to think you can diagnose mental disorders in people via remote control, just the same way Santorum did in the Terri Schiavo case.
Corner Stone
@Keith:
Actually, at the time he made remarks that paraphrased essentially said he thought the dog should be put down.
Which I thought were unfair at the time as his sister was probably hurting really badly too.
But Cole has been pretty consistent on this issue, before the tragedy and after. Disagree if you will, but he hasn’t just switched on this.
SomeRandomChick
I’m going to go ahead and stake the claim to expertise here, as someone who was mauled and lost part of a face and finger as a child to a damn ST BERNARD – YES, the big huge guys with slobber.
As such an obvious authority, let me say this: It’s John’s joint, his cat died, he can be angry about people choosing Pitt Bulls, given the known aggression in the breed. For those of you who own/rescued/love said breed, you’ve all brought up all the precautions you take to avoid those animal hurting anyone. That makes you good owners, but PROVES HIS DAMN POINT.
My Border Terror and German Shepherd need no muzzles, avoidance of small children or dog parks. They are simply not dangerous and do not have the “switch” (do a search for that word in the last 2 threads to see how often it comes up) to go psycho.
I have every reason to fear dogs. I could have developed a phobia, but I didn’t. The St. Bernard was the result of too warm climate and bad owners. My experiences with deranged Pitt Bulls couldn’t be explained by the same.
Halcyon
@John Rogers:
John, those stats aren’t particularly convincing. If you look at the citations on that page, they’re to a tripod page. That doesn’t exist any more: http://ncrf2004.tripod.com/id8.html is where the link in the citations goes. I would look up the others but I don’t have access to the journals they’re printed in.
Also, that doesn’t prove that pit bulls aren’t dangerous, it just suggests that there should be an additional requirement to immediately spay or neuter all non-breeding dogs.
God help me, I think I still have to agree with drunk Cole on this one. Well, up to the point of them being an unacceptable risk and ownership should be prohibited going forward. Less so on the part where all currently owned ones should all be put down immediately.
Ted & Hellen
It’s touching to know that Cassidy put on this evening’s brilliant display of douchiness only because he wants to help JC heal.
Thoughtful!
ConsistentLiberal
@Punchy: @Punchy:
What you’re missing is the fact that you’re arbitrarily picking which animals to care about and which to kill – even the people defending pit bulls for the same reason!
You are all insane as far as I can tell. Did any of you even read the comments here?
I’m glad each one of you care about and animal or two on earth, and goes about killing hundreds of others for your enjoyment. Tell me, what makes any of you different from a “dangerous” pit bull? Are you people really this clueless?
Where is the liberal site on the internet? Did i land at the blaze?
Seriously, why do any of you give a fuck if we kill every pit bull and eat them for dinner? Follow it up with the rest of the dogs and cats, amirite?
Corner Stone
I thought Seth was Cole’s actual brother.
am
@Cassidy:
I don’t know if you’re still reading, but I hate these threads. I don’t you what you’ve said in the other thread, but I am someone with direct experience with foster and rescue pits, and I’m thankful people are defending them here.
JC – this topic brings out the worst in you. Some good people defend these dogs, it’s not decent of you to insult them that way.
Spaghetti Lee
@ConsistentLiberal:
Where is the liberal site on the internet? Did i land at the blaze?
How on earth did you ever get the impression that all liberals are vegans?
Or, more to the point, if you think you’re going to win people over here by writing up a purity test for being properly liberal and scolding anyone who doesn’t measure up, well…good luck?
ConsistentLiberal
@Yatsuno: Yeah, he’s right, cause the constitution has always been the final world on morality.
Maybe we can make animals 3/5ths of a person?
kc
@Keith:
Ah, well, better he vent at us than at them.
I do wonder what happened to the dog, and how his sis is doing.
Cassidy
@ConsistentLiberal: Dude/ette I’m with ya. It’s completely fucking random. “Look at the cute puppeh, but slap that on the ass and grill me a steak”
Ted & Hellen
One of the aspects of the overall Tunch murder story I find most appalling, is that anyone who was the owner of an animal that killed another animal owned by someone close to them would refuse to honor the wishes of the dead pet’s owner to have that animal put down, if only out of respect for the murder victim AND the the owner/person they supposedly love and respect.
Kind of blows my mind, actually.
It’s like an extra “fuck you” after the horror of the killing itself.
Wow.
pseudonymous in nc
@Cassidy: Amateur psychologist as well as professional asshole? My, you’re talented.
Not all pit bulls are murderous fuckers. Not all pit bull owners are fuckwits. But my oh my, a sufficient number of both of them are, and that ain’t a coinkidink.
Since it’s airing of grievances: if you own a border collie and live in a city apartment, you should also be slapped silly.
And the fucking pie filter’s not working.
sparky
@JordanRules: Sorry, but cunt, please doesn’t work the same. Sounds like a request.
Keith
@Corner Stone: I don’t have any beef with him wanting the dog put down. I think the dog should be put down as well; aggressive dogs, regardless of breed, should go, especially after they’ve killed.
But the fact remains that when his pit-bull-owning sister let his brother(in-law?) bring the dog to his house where it killed his cat, he wanted nothing but love for the owner and handler. When it isn’t his family, he’s heavy-handed with the blanket abuse. Very inconsistent as far as I can tell. He may be consistent as it pertains to the animal, but it sure as hell isn’t when it comes to people. I’d have more respect for him if he’d actually call his sister names and tell her she’s no better than a gun owner…or if he came to the realization that he can make a point without posting general “FUCK YOU”s to his readers, like he does about every month.
SG
I have to agree with you, Cole. Look at any list of dogs at any local municipal shelter — at least half to two-thirds are pit bulls, Rottweilers, “American Staffordshire Terriers” and their mixes.
They are the sad remainders of a former owner who thought a fighting dog would be a good guard dog, or prove his owner has a big dick, or would win in illegal dog fights, or just look cool. Then those owners decided it wasn’t such a good idea.
They’re abused, abandoned, and they are damaged goods. They’re dangerous and the danger has been bred into them. The breeds should be banned and allowed to die out.
My neighbor’s small son had his face mauled by his aunt’s rescue pit bull. I don’t know how many stitches it took –at least 80-100. These animals will never outgrow the instincts bred into them, and the instinct is to attack something dog-sized in front of them and hold on with jaws of steel. What triggers the attack can be the smallest, subtlest thing.
It’s not their fault, it’s ours for creating such a breed. Sadly, they must pay for our stupidity and hubris.
eemom
@sparky:
You’re in good company.
And indeed, this thread is living proof of how “nuts” it is to expect consistent humanity, much less moral or ethical coherence, among people whose professed love of animals amounts to the flesh and blood equivalent of “not in my backyard.”
Nuts to question the manipulation of animal species for no purpose other than to indulge human whims. Totally nuts.
ConsistentLiberal
@Spaghetti Lee: Why would you think I’m under that impression? My point is our liberals are failing. I look at liberalism as a means, not an end. Just as it would be hard to be considered a liberal if you hated women, or blacks, or gays, i’m not sure how we classify people who harm animals for their pleasure as “liberal.”
JR
@SomeRandomChick: The only difference is that hysteria-mongers hear stories like this and don’t immediately pretend that your dog is the same as the one involved.
Or this one.
Or this one.
Cassidy
@pseudonymous in nc: blah, blah, blah….seriously, dude? At this point, there is no point than you just want to fight. Go kiss the kids or something.
Mandalay
@Halcyon:
You didn’t find the stats on bites from neutered vs. non-neutered dogs persuasive?
If not, let’s see your numbers on bites from neutered pit bulls that led you to decide that prohibiting ownership is appropriate.
Ted & Hellen
@eemom:
Eemom, you know…don’t you…that dogs would not exist at all without manipulation of genes through selective breeding from wolves…right?
Spaghetti Lee
@ConsistentLiberal:
Because demanding perfection as a prerequisite to membership gets us nowhere fast. That’s been hashed out here before.
If you use any sort of mass-produced consumer product (like a computer, say) you’re probably hurting some people, animals, and plants along the way. I’m not taunting you specifically, but the thing about these who’s-purer-than-who discussions is that they tend to bottom out into absurdity pretty quickly. Which is why lots of people don’t bother with them.
Mackenna
@Howard Beale IV: Howard, it’s only week 3. Your insistence he snap into some next phase of grief is absurd.
For the life of me I don’t understand why so many people are absolutely horrified by emotions.
John Rogers
@Halcyon: I’m not sure why “94% of attacks are by non-neutered dogs” is somehow unconvincing. I’m trying to “convince” people that breed-oriented solutions to dog violence are not the correct solution — and the American Humane Society agrees with me. It is an owner-oriented solution, with neutering being the very first priority. Pits are high in the past years attack stats because pit owners — due to cultural issues which are now nicely enough fading as did the Doberman issue in the 80’s — were the owners most likely to not neuter their animal, nor train them properly. Several studies point out that the “most dangerous animal” during any given time is the one most used for guard duties.
The CDC, which is where most people get their dog bite statistics from, also recommends breed-neutral laws over breed discriminatory ones.
I did indeed dig further and wound up on a bunch of reports and pdfs of animal behavior studies mentioning the small dog issue, but if you think I’m hunting up pdfs links for a midnight thread of this quality, you’re high.
As far as pits being “at the level of unacceptable risk” well, I’d note that you’re more likely to be killed by lightning than by a dog, and dog bites are at an all time low. I’m gonna need a number better than “less likely than a lightning strike” to get me over the hump, and to disagree with both the American Human Society and the CDC.
Again, the take away is ANY dog, no matter its previous behaviour or its breed, can go off. Please take precautions
eemom
I’m going to walk my dogs.
Fuck Cole and every other hypocrite here whose professed love of animals is nothing more than self-serving bullshit.
SomeRandomChick
@JR:
That’s true, I’ll grant you that. But they do hear all the stories about hero Shepherds that far outnumber the attacks. I read a story about military Shepherds today, but I’m too lazy right now to to Google.
Are there any counter-stories of this breed? I’m sure there are some, but is it 50/50? Or is 1% – saves family from fire and 99% mauled child to death?
Spaghetti Lee
@Mackenna:
Well, someone just said a few comments up that it’s ‘inconsistent’ for Cole to treat his sister and brother-in-law differently than he treats people he knows over the internet. Having a Mr. Spock-style view of life can get you to some pretty weird places.
SomeRandomChick
Maybe they need a better press agent.
eemom
@Ted & Hellen:
No, I don’t. Got a link for that?
Anne Laurie
@Keith: You know what they say: We can pick our friends, but we can’t pick our families.
ETA: And on the intersection of those topics, let me advocate for more humans choosing not to breed, as well. I’ve long since forgiven my parents for their failings — some of them due to bad genetics — but I also chose not to pass on those bad genes.
gbear
@eemom:
Is that what the kids are calling it these days?
JR
@SomeRandomChick: Let me Google that for you.
ConsistentLiberal
@Spaghetti Lee:
Fair enough, but I think it’s a little different wondering if a slave made my phone vs. “wondering” if any animal was harmed in making my dinner consisting of a dead animal.
We are all against wearing a jacket made of human skin, right? I mean, I can’t be sure where it came from and all…maybe no human was harmed?
For the record, I’m also for trade agreements that deal with these other issues – someone explain to me why it’s illegal for GM to hire someone in TX for $2 a day but not 20 ft across the border…one gets an executive sent to jail, the other gets him a bonus…
ConsistentLiberal
@eemom:
Are you going to fuck yourself?
Halcyon
@Mandalay:
I do find them persuasive, assuming they’re correct. I just don’t find that sufficient. If 98% of fatal attacks are from non-neutered dogs, and, I dunno, 50% of those non-neutered dogs are pit bulls (or any other breed) that doesn’t mean there aren’t more risk factors as well, it just means we’re being insufficiently broad.
But yes, I do find it convincing. I’m now convinced that we totally should not allow ownership of non-neutered dogs because that’s apparently a huge risk factor. That does not mean it is the *only* risk factor. Additionally, those stats are only about “Fatal” bites in my reading (I’m assuming here they mean “fatal (to humans)”). That does not mean there isn’t enough information about non-fatal attacks (or possibly fatal-to-other-animals attacks) to conclude that some breeds are still unacceptable risk factors for that as well.
Uriel
One of my nephews was mauled by one of those ‘harmless’ Rottweilers, that was totally sweet, except when it was aggressively menacing anyone or thing it thought was intruding into it’s imagined space- which also happened to include the sidewalk outside of it’s poorly fenced in yard.
In other words, it was doing exactly what it was bred to do, nothing more or less.
The owners reassured one and all that rot was totally sweet and harmless, and something totally out of the norm must have caused it to jump the fence and give my nephew over 100 stitches. (Including insinuating that the dog must have been antagonized into the act by my nephew, in a classic bit of victim blaming.) But, somehow, that explanation really did very little to ameliorate the concerns of those of us trying to comfort a 7 year old who was now going to go through life horribly disfigured because he did nothing more than take the most direct route home from school one day.
Icing on the cake: since it was the dogs first biting incident, it wasn’t put down. Which meant that my nephew had to walk past the same dog that tore him apart over and over again.
The moral of the story: If you can’t be bothered with the constant vigilance and painstaking preparations required, than don’t own dogs that are, literally, born to kill. No different than leaving a handgun laying around.
Ted & Hellen
@eemom:
No, I don’t. Got a link for that?
Yes I do. For your elucidation: The origin of the domestic dog.
John Rogers
@Halcyon: I guess I understand, but (apparently) we just don’t keep those stats — which means, frankly, it’s your anecdotal evidence against everybody else’s to define “unacceptable risk.” (and note in many of the studies cited that ‘pit bull mix’ is a bucket description based on witness guesses, not an official biological definition.)
I’ll admit I’m more likely to extrapolate down off the stats we do know rather than “well, I dunno, I’ve just heard …”
For a discussion of the changing nature of “the killer breed” in the last century, this paper’s not bad — http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/publications/230603563_Pit%20Bull%20Placebo.pdf
Spaghetti Lee
@ConsistentLiberal:
We are all against wearing a jacket made of human skin, right?
On this blog? Can’t be sure, really.
The big-picture point is that we’re all sinners. We’re consumers biologically speaking, as well as economically. Existence requires consumption. And nature has been fond of ‘suffering’ long before we showed up. If you think a human eating a pig is a crime, simply because it causes suffering, what about a cat killing a bird by tearing its head off? Or wasps that paralyze cockroaches so they can lay eggs in them and have the larva eat them alive? Life is a fucked-up place, is what I’m saying. Maybe you think humans are evolved enough that we can break free of the circle of life, move to a lifestyle which requires no dependence on nature, to which I say: I hope you brought something to read while you wait.
Small picture is that hectoring, scolding, sneering at, and mocking people in the name of your cause, in an effort to convince them to change rather than just trolling, doesn’t usually work to well. Tends to push them in the opposite direction, actually. I believe that’s actually a proven psychological phenomenon. So you’re kind of fighting an uphill battle here. Maybe the solution is to live by your own moral compass, realize that other people have their own, and hope for the best.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@eemom: It must be lonely, being the only real animal lover on this site.
Pinkamena Panic
NONE OF YOU SHOULD OWN PETS.
All of you. Just… shut up. ALL of you. I don’t want to see one more post, or one more comment, Do I make myself perfectly goddamn clear on this?
I see who the real animals are here.
Yatsuno
@pseudonymous in nc:
Amen to that. That’s downright abusive.
Spaghetti Lee
@Pinkamena Panic:
I don’t want to see one more post, or one more comment, Do I make myself perfectly goddamn clear on this?
Oh, shut up.
Uriel
@Pinkamena Panic:
Huhwha?
Halcyon
@John Rogers:
It’s unconvincing because that statistic looks kinda cherry picked. It only refers to fatal bites (and, again, I’m assuming that means human-fatal) but those aren’t the only attacks we mean. It’s totally convincing as to “non-neutered dogs are at risk of being aggressive enough to kill humans!” which, hey, also a problem, and I’m totally willing to believe that’s even the most important factor. But it doesn’t mean it’s the only factor that’s useful in determining if a dog is especially dangerous.
And, hey, honestly? The CDC thing is something I’ll have to consider. Given this thread as an example of how strongly people feel, it’s not at all hard to imagine that someone at the AHS would be willing to bend things to suggest that breed-specific laws are useless even if they’re not. But hey, another data point from somewhere where that’s less likely to be a problem. Also a consideration.
As for looking stuff up, obviously not. It’s too late for that shit on a thread that won’t decide anything anyway.
The whole lightning thing is a fair point, but we’re not only talking about fatalities, we’re talking about other attacks (and maybe pet fatalities) as well. That 4.7 million number of “bites” annually is much, much bigger than the number of lightning deaths annually (and I’m willing to bet it’s bigger than the number of humans struck by lightning too). I was trying to find those other studies just to glance at them quickly and see what “bite” means in this instance. (And no, I’m not gonna bother at this point, nor do I expect anyone else to.) Is it “requires medical care”? Because that’s roughly 1% of the US population or so bitten annually, which while not exactly civilization threatening is maybe something we might want to at least see if we could reduce even more as a public-health concern. I hear people are all fired up about medical spending and that shit these days.
Anyway, I just wanted to chip in that, at that point in time, Cole’s position wasn’t necessarily wrong even if he was all ragey everywhere. It seemed to me to be the more logically borne out from what I knew at that point (and from reading the threads so far). Now you’ve given me a bit more to consider. Thanks for that.
Halcyon
@John Rogers:
Well, crap. Now you actually did find papers while I was writing that last one. And post them. On a saturday night. Now I just feel bad.
JR
@Halcyon: The American Veterinary Medical Association has some thoughts on that as well.
Suzanne
@Ted & Hellen: Tunch wasn’t murdered. Animals cannot murder each other. Good Lord.
And to answer your question on the previous thread as to why I wanted to own my dog: I prefer medium/large breeds, since I like to take them running and hiking. I went to the shelter, and 90% of the large breed dogs there were pits/crosses. I “met” all of them, but the pup who became my Luna immediately came over to me for snuggles, and she submitted to both my husband and I. She was a puppy, and so we thought abuse was unlikely. She immediately engaged with my daughter. This is why we love her. Not because she looks “scary”. She actually looks charmingly dopey—you can see her in two of the BJ calendars.
Warren Terra
@eemom:
Oh, f’gawds sake, you nitwit: dogs aren’t people. You toss off the distinction like it’s an afterthought, but it’s a bit important. Speaking as someone who had a lot of family that became air pollution, you are cordially invited to go fnck yourself when you claim selective breeding of dogs is comparable to genocide of humans.
Dog breeds have physical and behavioral traits. Dalmations have spots, Golden retrievers have long hair and little apparent intelligence, bulldogs have heads too large for them to be birthed unaided, border collies need to herd things, and – allegedly – many pit bulls have the urge to kill. If that last is true – and I’m not attempting to decide that question on the basis of my ignorance and this thread’s anecdotes – then (1) it’s our fault as a species, because as a species it’s what we wanted from them; and (2) it is our responsibility as a society not to leave genetically encoded time bombs around our neighborhoods. If there was a brand of automobile that was two or three orders of magnitude more likely than others spontaneously to kill pets and children, we’d demand that be fixed, and we wouldn’t let people own them and have them in our neighborhoods. If the allegation about pit bulls is true, we need to fix them, too, and your bullshit about Nazis is just that. The difference between your dog and my relatives is that my relatives are humans – they’re your relatives too – and your dog is a dog. Breeding insane aggression out of your dog, if it exists, isn’t a moral outrage; it’s the opposite.
Grondo
@eemom:
Where do you think dogs come from? They are ALL the result of human breeding. You have to go back to the wolf to find the pre-breeding root. We created them and we can breed them as we choose – it’d be good to breed the lethality out of pit bulls.
Halcyon
@JR:
Well. Despite my best efforts I appear to have learned something today then. Hooray internets I guess. So thank you, and John Rogers too.
John Rogers
@Halcyon: And you;ve been very gracious about it too. Thanks.
So thanks to @JR, we can basically list our arguments tonight as
Everyone who KNOWS pit bulls are walking murder machines based on stuff they’ve heard
vs.
The American Humane Society
The American Veterinary Medical Association
The National Canine Research Council
The CDC
Just asking people to slow their roll, that’s all.
am
@JR:
In a better world, research and policy recommendations by the CDC, American Veterinary Association, and the Human Society would mean more than a bunch of anecdotes and opinions. I admire you for trying to educate.
Suzanne
@JR: @John Rogers: Thanks to both of y’all for bringing tracts to the table.
Howard Beale IV
@Mackenna: Unresolved grief is a primary factor in many cases of Major Depressive Disorder.
Period. Full Stop.
The longer stage 3 continues, the risk increases.
And, as cruel as it may sound-it’s just a cat. Now had Cole lost a girlfriend/wife over a freak accident I can accept/appreciate his invective. But that’s not what we’re dealing with here.
TriassicSands
@Howard Beale IV:
It doesn’t sound cruel, just uninformed. Look around and you’ll find many people who value and love their pets as much as they do humans. It doesn’t matter if you think they’re wrong or misguided or warped or anything else. You simply have different, not superior, values.
Bob h
@dp:@dp: @dp: I’ve owned two Rottweillers, too, both large males who were very sweet. The first was trained by my wife’s nephew, a professional trainer in Japan, and air-mailed to us. The second was trained less successfully by me, and is a very efficient killer of raccoons, possums, etc., but never tangles with other dogs.
Arclite
@JR: Fuck you JR. It’s not a caricature. It’s fucking statistics.
You’re like a man who argues that it’s fine to drive drunk because YOU’VE never had an accident. Fuck you.
The Tim Channel
I don’t really disagree with anything you’ve said about the breed. I have, however, rescued a couple of them. The first, Roxie is dead now (of cancer), but I found her emaciated and abandoned after Katrina and brought her home (Valentine’s Day no less).
She was never quite right in the head. When I got her she was so bad off I didn’t even know what kind of dog she was. We struggled to make her fit in with the rest of our herd, but she was always too vicious for her own good. My little male dog Bandit never had an issue with the monster. Lizzy, my wife’s favorite terrier, was not so lucky. I had to physically intercede on more than one occasion when things went south between Lizzy and Roxie. It wasn’t a pretty picture.
Why did I keep her? First off I’d saved her life. I wasn’t about to put her down. She had her place. I had an extremely durable fence line with an inner durable fence line, providing a nice security moat around my house. She was less dangerous than gun ownership but several times more effective in home defense.
That’s probably not an issue for most people. It isn’t an issue I face anymore, but at the time, I was living in a neighborhood that went from 99 percent white to 99 percent Black in the TWENTY YEARS I was living there. I had drug dealers living up and down the street, one next door. We all got along quite well under the circumstances because everybody knew where they stood. There was no way the cops were ever going to get involved. I’d have been dead from either crooked cop or pissed off drug dealer. There was clearly some sort of payoff arrangement in place and I wasn’t about to disrupt that. I’m not stupid
I knew many neighbors who were victims of one crime or another because of the turmoil caused by the neighborhood upheaval. I was not one of them. Thank you Roxie. RIP.
Enjoy.
Cermet
I am so sorry for your loss, and yes, pit bulls are a type of dog that has killed children; whether they have killed more than any other breed is an unknown to me. Without data, I’d think it best not to to damn a breed until you know the facts. Also, many dogs will attack small animals on sight – this has more to do with their nature and is not dependent on breed.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@JR:
Okay, that dog I would get rid of.
sherparick
@Cassidy: Wrong Cassidy. Yes, John and his brother probably did not realize how dangerous Kiwi was when his brother brought him to Cole’s house. But apparently, you don’t realize how dangerous your dog is to you and your neighbors, their kids, and pets. See http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2012.php
All dogs can bite, but some dogs just don’t let go until the prey is dead. I don’t blame the dogs. But they have sad, tragic genetic inhertiance and even the most carefully raised PB/Staffordshire Terrier is time bomb that could go off. They were bred for dogfighting, to be aggressive, and to kill other dogs. If you insist on owning one, a prudent person will not invite children or other animals to their house, they will muzzle the dog when going out, and will keep it in an fenced area where only the owner will go. And they should be strictly liable for anything that happens. No one should breed pit bulls and the breed should go extinct along with the barbaric practice of dog fighting.
Tyro
@mch: @John Rogers: The CDC, which is where most people get their dog bite statistics from, also recommends breed-neutral laws over breed discriminatory ones.
If we make breed neutral laws insisting on mandatory neutering outside of a few select breeding dogs and breeding specifically to breed out aggression for consumer dogs and making it illegal to sell dogs that display certain aggressive traits, guess which breeders and owners of which breed are going to bear the brunt of these laws?
Unsympathetic
From a statistics point of view:
What’s the percent of all dogs who attack anything/everything that intrudes upon their self-determined space?
What’s the percent of Rott/Pit who do the same?
Observer
Wow. Cassidy makes a serious run at eemom’s record for Biggest Asshole on the Blog. What a couple of worthless fucks.
different-church-lady
For me the biggest takeaway from this thread is the difference between dogs and humans is that the dogs don’t choose to be assholes.
different-church-lady
Won’t someone think of the poor murdered vegetables?
Vlad
As a thought experiment, try going back through this thread, and every time anyone says the phrase “pit bulls”, replace it with “black people”.
different-church-lady
@Vlad: I’ll try that when we’ve had an organized, systematic, selective breeding program for “black people” going back a huge number of years. Until then, I’ll pass.
Stine
You’re ignorant as all hell, Cole. This site will now be removed from my RSS feed. I guess that’s probably good for you because I run an ad-blocker anyway.
Have a nice life, douchebag.
Vlad
@different-church-lady: You said that like there weren’t organized breeding programs during the bad old days of slavery. Not to mention all the racist fucks who have tried to present the “savagery” of the children of Ham as an inherent feature.
I must say, it’s been eye-opening to see a bunch of ostensible liberals arguing in favor of the dog equivalents of racial profiling, genetic predetermination of life outcomes, and eugenics.
bigcat39
I, for many years, had a 130 lb long haired German Shepherd dog. (ya, he was fat. get over it.) In the 14 years I had him, he only got in ONE dog fight. I was attacked at a public park by a young Pitbull, maybe three quarters grown. Got bitten on the calf. Jocko grabbed the pit by the neck,picked him up, and slammed him to the ground. Bye bye pit. Then he defended me from the owner.
While on the subject, let’s talk about another dangerous bully breed… the English bulldog. Awww, so cute. So inbred. So stupid. People think these drooling monstrosities are just adawaable. Thank god they are so expensive. Bred to grab the nose of a bull and NOT LET GO. Fucking walking explosives.
karen marie
I’m with John Cole on this. Fuck all you who think “my dog would NEVER hurt anyone!” I have had two spaniels injured by pit bulls whose owners exclaimed, “Oh, he’s never done that before!”
different-church-lady
Are you saying there’s no need to use the imagination?
Or are you saying black people and dogs actually do have something in common?
Either way — or even some other way — I ain’t touching this no more.
stinger
@Viva BrisVegas: “they have been bred to a design which inflicts maximum damage when they do go off”
This. This right here.
sherparick
Also, the “Our Gang” meme is really silly. Yes, Pete the Pup was an American Staffordshire Terrier as they existed in 1930. Look at the picture in the Wikipedia article and look at the size of Pete, the size of his head, and his jaws. Pretty normal for a terrier. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_the_Pup
Now look at the jaw and chest size of the Pit Bulls on the Google search page. https://www.google.com/search?q=Pit+Bulls&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Note the larger jaws, the massive neck and chest. When dog fighting revived in the 1970s and 80s and Drug War created a demand for an intimidating weapon one could “open carry,” human breeders responded to the market. The ASPCA defends Pit Bulls, but at the same time gives some very specific guidance that indicates that tihs is not your normal dog for which normal training is okay.
smintheus
Last week my wife and I were charged by a neighbor’s pitbull while we were walking down a country road we walk past several times every week. The owner was standing in front of her house playing with her grandchild, and the dog came flying at us even while she tried to call it back. It stopped just a few feet short of us – I think it may have a shock collar (which the owner doesn’t bother with half the time). We thought we were about to get mauled. The owner apologized half-heartedly afterwards.
What is wrong with people that they’d keep a dog with that kind of temperament and that much ability to maim innocents? It always seems to be people who are indifferent to their duties as a pet owner. These people have had sweeter dogs in the past, which they also let run wild and refused to curb when they took them for walks.
We’re thinking of carrying mace with us when we walk.
sherparick
@Vlad: Because that would be a real stupid thought experiment.
sherparick
@Unsympathetic: Again, you can find out this stuff with two clicks of search on Google. “CDC dog bites” and “dog bites and pit bulls.”
sherparick
@John Rogers: @Unsympathetic: Per “Dogbite.org,” 73% of the 261 humans killed by dogs between 2005 to 2012 were killed by Pit Bulls and Rottweilers combined. Pit Bulls alone accounted for 60% of the deaths. And this does not account for the thousands of dogs and cats killed by Pit Bulls or or the thousands humans mauled and disfigured. If you are going to own one, like owning a gun, you owe a duty and responsiblity to others be very vigilant and rigourous in safety precautions. Bringing a pit bull to a dog park is like inviting disaster. Letting the dog run loose when children are around is inviting disaster.
MoZeu
Well, you could afford to be a little less angry if you actually want to persuade someone, but I guess since you are still grieving and anyone who reads your blog knows how you are, you gets some slack.
I actually basically agree with you, and it’s kind of sad. I realize that most pits, for example, are great most of the time, but every dog has triggers and when a pit’s triggers are triggered, the results are generally catastrophic. My son has a classmate whose family owns a pit bull. He is not permitted to play at their house unless the dog is caged. I’M not afraid of the dog, because I’m not going to do anything which triggers her to attack. But two 3rd grade boys who like to wrestle and the younger siblings of one of them playing together? Jesus, it’s a scenario tailor-made to create confusion and mistakenly trigger a protection response on the part of the dog. And yes ANY dog could make a mistake and my son could end up with a nasty bit. I can accept that level of risk. I cannot accept the risk that my son will end up dead if the dog makes a mistake.
So, I agree completely that it is irresponsible to continue to breed and house dogs which have been bred as attack animals.
Vlad
@sherparick: Not a stupid as some of the other garbage people are trotting out in this thread.
If it’s not universally applicable, then it’s a preference, not a moral principle.
sherparick
@muddy: You did the right thing. And think of the guilt you would have felt if your dog had hurt or killed a friend’s child. You also have the right attitude for owning such a potentially dangerous animal. Unfortunately, when check out the the Pit Bull owners web sites, it appears to be always “the bad owner” or “the kid’s” fault. http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/truth-about-pit-bulls
https://www.google.com/search?q=Pit+Bulls&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Vlad
@different-church-lady:
They DO have something in common: They’re both stigmatized as a class for things that aren’t their fault, such as the failings of other isolated individuals within the group, by people who should really fucking know better.
Are there individual pit bulls that are bad, dangerous dogs? Sure. But when my mom got bit on the knee and needed stitches, it was by a pug, and when my grandfather had to beat an attacking dog with a stick to get it off him, it was a chow, and when my friend Deb got her face ripped open to the point that she needed cosmetic surgery, it was a goddamn yellow Labrador retriever that was getting a walk in the park.
There’s an inherent risk in associating with other people’s animals or in adopting animals of unknown provenance from a shelter. That’s just how things work. Life is not a risk-free endeavor. Which is not to say that dog owners (of ALL dogs, not just pit bulls) shouldn’t be required to be responsible stewards of their pets, to prevent injury to others… but that doesn’t have anything to do with pit bulls as a breed.
pseudonymous in nc
@Vlad: Oh, go and make an apple pie with your bag of oranges.
I don’t believe people should own slaves or pit bulls. Simple.
jeer9
A couple of anecdotes:
When I lived in LA, a good friend’s neighbor had two pit bulls. The pit bulls would occasionally escape from the fenced-in backyard and kill a cat. He was a truck driver who would be gone for days at a time and my friend would volunteer to feed his dogs who were left in the backyard. My friend went over on this duty one time and found both dogs dead. Someone had thrown a hunk of meat laced with poison over the fence. Problem solved.
My current next door neighbor has about ten cats. Some are spayed/neutered; some are not. There always seems to be a litter of kittens about. I have two dogs, a Dalmatian and a Beagle, who are mostly outside dogs and are often kept in a pen adjacent to this neighbor’s house. A kitten wandered into the pen one evening, and my two dogs who are very sweet, though they love to chase gophers and ground squirrels, ripped the poor thing to shreds. Hard to describe the disgust I felt looking at the evidence and the shit-eating complacency of the two monsters as they wagged their tails as if nothing had happened.
Cassidy
@Observer: As I said before, if you’re not the type who likes honesty, we won’t be friends.
Fuck You
Hey John Fuck you.
I love animals but if you allowed your precious cat to get killed by a dog you’re a bad owner.
RobinDC
This is it, the rampancy of insane nanny stateism run amok in John Cole’s mind. From going after innocent and responsible gun owners and painting them with the same brush as lunatics, to calling for the extermination of an entire breed of animal. These are the same exact species of thought, where freedom is locked down for the utility of creating an ever “safer” society, run by the all powerful government who we can trust to take care of things. Individuals need not be responsible for anything, and all things must be judged in the “aggregate” because statistics are the all powerful truth, and cannot be changed.
Anyone who is for gun-control certainly should have no problems with pitbull control, they are the same thing after all (except pitbulls being living beings, but that hardly matters to the degenerating fascist mind). And if you are all for banning gun ownership entirely then the extermination of the pitbull breed of course makes perfect sense, get rid of the dangerous instrumentality, duh. But it’s really goddamn hilarious for me to see the rabid anti-gun assholes in a defensive crouch now that something they care about is in the fascists sights. This isn’t the end game of the lunatic philosophy which has come to infest this place, eugenics is just a short skip and hop from here.
WereBear
Hey, if we’re going to rank sentient life, my Maine Coon, rescued as evidence in a police case of animal cruelty, has a LOT more right to live happily than the dudes who killed people for money up in Dannemora.
Don’t go there. It would be stupid.
Corner Stone
@Vlad:
I…uhhh…wtf?
WereBear
There’s actually two “lines” of Rottweiler. There’s the lovable goofs they tend to be in America, from responsible breeders who love their intelligence and focus, and breed out the aggression that is SO not welcome in a pet situation.
Then there’s a distinct European line, unbroken from the times Rottys guarded moats and “took care” of poachers. If you know what I mean and I think you do.
I once spoke to someone who, at great expense, imported a German Rottweiler from the unbroken line. He hired expert trainers, but ultimately sent the dog back, because that dog was freakin’ scary and the man knew he could not control him.
I’ve also known Schutzhund trainers. They have told me; some dogs are killers. And some just are not.
Keith G
I have never understood how it is that some folks can celebrate and support the notion that there are positive behaviors that have been bred into a specific breed of dog such as tracking, retrieving, or/and herding; while at the same time they aggressively dispute that any negative behaviors can be bred into a species of dog – or maybe it’s just their dog.
To exemplify, even at an early age most beagles act like beagles and most border collies act like border collies. And yet those people who like to own dogs that have bred to be dangerous seem to not be able to admit that their dogs are (by virtue of their genetics) likely to be more dangerous than the average pup.
Can any of the supporters here weigh in and help me out, AL?
Lirpa
@JR: thanks for this. Found my two pits in a garbage can, 5 weeks old and someone put in a dumpster. They have had snarly fights together, much like my terrier litter mates did. But my Alley Trash was attacked by a neighbor mini collie, lying in wait. Alley had a torn lip and ear, collie got away clean, hubby got bit by the collie too.
I believe a fuck you, John, is in order, but I’m gonna give you a pass because you are in mourning. Honestly, I have never noticed the similarities between you and Andrew Sullivan when he goes on one of his unreasonable benders before.
One last thing, have buried five dogs on this property and the key is to have the grave out of sight the first few months, for sanity and keeping a lid on excessive grief. Get some pots and plant catnip, placing them in the area to give you something positive to distract your eye.
WereBear
@Keith G: You are absolutely right.
Dogs have a tremendous genetic range. And they used to be used for a lot of unsociable things.
Most of the toy breeds were bred to sit in the laps of royalty and amuse their people. My mother’s Papillon would not hurt anything but a fly.
Chihuahuas are notorious biters, though are fortunately too small to do much damage. They were basically both pets… and food, and did not have their nature moderated because of their environment.
Heck, we’re all genetically moderated; that’s what Darwin pointed out. If we weren’t like that, wolves would never have evolved into Papillons.
Ted & Hellen
@Stine:
OMG…Balloon Juice is doomed!
Keith G
@Lirpa: Would you please address the inquiry I have made above?
Ted & Hellen
@Vlad:
I must say, it’s been eye-opening to see a bunch of ostensible liberals arguing in favor of the dog equivalents of racial profiling, genetic predetermination of life outcomes, and eugenics.
Newsflash: Dogs are not people.
Ted & Hellen
@smintheus:
They get off on the intimidation factor. Your neighbor is a fucking asshole who LIKES that you now have to pass in front of her property with a sense of fear.
Ted & Hellen
@Vlad:
Oh no, most certainly not. Absolutely no reason for people to regard PBs with alarm. None whatsoever. It’s all a conspiracy to take away your pwecioussss because people are mean.
Fuck off.
different-church-lady
@Corner Stone: Congratulations to Vlad: you have managed to say something so brilliantly stupid that even the relentlessly garrulous Corner Stone has been brought up short by it. (Something the scientific community previously believed to be impossible.)
Ted & Hellen
@RobinDC:
Oh piss off, you bloviant douche bag.
different-church-lady
@RobinDC: Maybe if we had an eugenics program to breed all the goddamned stupid out of gun owners we wouldn’t need all these gun control laws, amirite?
karen
So if I was minding my own business, not on your property but on the sidewalk and your pitbull came running out of your house and bit me, it’s my fault for walking right?
Catsy
@Suzanne:
Doesn’t the fact that you feel a need to do this speak for itself and validate the concerns of everyone who is saying that the entire reason this breed is rightfully feared is because you never know if even the gentlest pit who’s never been aggressive before is going to turn on someone or their pet?
Catsy
@eemom:
Eemom is shocked–SHOCKED I tell you–to learn that breeding animals to select for specific traits has been happening for thousands of years.
Nope, not bent out of shape by this. Not even one iota.
Catsy
@ConsistentLiberal:
Aaaaaand, here we have Exhibit A in why no one takes extremist animal-rights nuts seriously. Seriously, you guys just shoot your cause in the foot every time you open your mouths. Hang on though; I need to finish this bacon double cheeseburger before I finish responding.
…okay, better. So what makes any of us omnivores different than a “dangerous” pit bull? Oh, I don’t know. You tell me, kiddo. Quote me some stats on how many meat-eating humans suddenly snap and start mauling pets or owners at a dog park. Tell me the percentages on meat-eating humans visiting someone else’s house and suddenly killing their pet in a fit of blood lust. And maybe while you’re at it, you can scare up some statistics about the proportion of meat-eating humans who have to be carefully controlled, socialized, and/or neutered in order to keep them from random violence even when they’ve never shown aggression before.
Oh, right, you can’t. Because you’re a fucking idiot who’s lost all sense of perspective in your quest to persuade everyone on earth that being a human omnivore is cruel and awful.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to a sushi restaurant to go kill some sea kittens.
Arclite
@Vlad:
What’s your point? If black people were 5% of the population, but were responsible for 60% of the homicides, you’d have one. That’s what pit bulls are.
AnnaN
I’m late to this party, but just want to ask: what are the numbers on dog attacks in the US? And what are the percentages per breed? Any large dog which attacks is going to cause some serious damage. Do we only hear about the pit bulls in the media because it’s sensationalistic?
Because in my own personal experience, I’ve never heard a pit bull attack story from friends/neighbors/relatives but have heard of cat killing dalmations (twice), two german shepherds, and a golden retriever that bit a small girl in the face. And yeah, it is ALWAYS the owner’s fault.
Greg
@Yatsuno: This is my point exactly. Humans have been performing genetic experiments on dogs for millenia. So we now realize that pit bulls were a mistake. So let’s just let them die out and everybody who wants a dog in the future will not have a pit bull choice and will instead get to pick from a lot of dog breeds that are stable and pose no threat. Why is this a problem? If you didn’t have a pit bull you would just have another dog that probably won’t rip your child’s face off, or kill a neighbor’s cat, or cause paralyzing fear in your neighbors. Let it go. We are not advocating exterminating dogs, we are just saying that this particular human-designed breeding experiment has failed.
markmac
@John Rogers: Finally! Sanity! Thank you
Joe Bauers
Maybe I missed it, but did any pit bull lovers seriously engage the point that there is no such thing as a 15 pound dog that can kill a grown man, but a 60 pound dog bred for aggression and super-powerful jaws is an entirely different thing?
jr
@Joe Bauers: Yeah, we cited a CDC study that includes this line:
Suzanne
@Catsy: I am gun-shy because I had a Siberian Husky who killed a small dog by accident. I now will exercise this level of caution with any large dog.
Chris
@muddy: As someone who grew up with some award winning beautiful and amazing Dobermans at a time when they were vilified, I can only imagine what it was like for you with Nessa. We worked on our dogs training daily. I have my own memories of keeping strangers away from our dogs, for our dogs safety. I’m not going to blame my dog for not appreciating a strange child running up to his face and attempting to hug him around the neck. I have a big rescue mix now and I let my instincts tell me whether a stranger can approach my dog.
Over the years I’ve seen too many people not matched up with a dog or breed they can handle, or understand. This goes for dogs bought from a breeder and adopted rescues. Few people appreciate the work and attention dogs require, the commitment. Dogs get returned to shelters, or dumped out of no fault of their own.
It’s tough loving a breed that gets manipulated for profit and ego. They are bred for all the wrong reasons. The destruction to their behavior, genetics and reputation lasts for decades. Good luck with your work and life with the rest of your canine family.
Dogs are amazing creatures. They give so much while asking for little, and their positive influence is spreading to nursing homes, school reading programs and court rooms.
Watership
The American Pit Bull is damaged. It will take a long time and a national effort on the part of breeders, owners, legislators and law enforcement to fix it.
It is a problem of nature, not nurture. You can’t love away epigenetics. The gene pool is poluted. We have breeds you can hold in the palm of your hand. That didn’t just happen. We did it by selecting for those traits and breeding, selecting for those traits and breeding. Creating new breeds or specialized versions of existing breeds.
That’s what the American Pit Bull is today. Breeders selecting for ferocity and breeding. Generations of manipulation. Countless numbers of dogs that didn’t match the genetic profile slaughtered. We switched them on. And those were the only ones Pit Bull seekers wanted. The rest are gone – the ones who wouldn’t be good fighters – or they’re a genetic aberation that slipped through the cracks.
If you want to fix the breed, you’ve got to begin the painstaking process of recoding them over generations. All of them. And unfortunately, the ones who aren’t selected this time for docility, or for service or some other trait will have to be put down. Just like “weakness” was selected out before to cause this problem.
It’s a scientific problem with a scientific answer. What’s happened to this breed is recorded history, there for all of us to see. Anyone who can shut their eyes to that history, say it didn’t happen and pitbulls are just misunderstood, must selectively ignore the basics of genetics, epigenetics, history, dog breeding practices and the supply and demand within the breed.
Jackie
John-
I so much agreed with what you said. Just a few weeks ago in my town, a Rottweiller attacked a four year old girl. By all accounts, the dog was a well trained, well loved animal. He was on a leash outside a Starbucks with his owner. The little girl’s family walked by. No one says that the girl even noticed the dog but it leapt up, grabbed her around her abdomen and held on until his owner was able to force him to let go. Several days later the owner decided, voluntarily to have him out down.
I am not saying that only aggressive breeds will behave aggressively. I am saying that aggressive breeds will more likely behave aggressively and that along with being bred for agression, they are also more likely to be bred with physical characteristics that make the aggression more dangerous. Pit bull jaws, for example.
I see very few times any more in which and aggressive dog incident is a repeat. We tend to pull those dogs out of the public arena so they aren’t repeats. Very few pit owners know right this minute that their pit is going to be aggressive. You can assume that your pit is going to be well behaved but the only thing you know is that if does become aggressive, great damage will ensue. I wouldn’t own a chihuahua because they can be incredibly aggressive and it can be hard to train it out of them. But, if I did own one, I would know that the damage it was capable of ( assuming its not running in a pack) is relatively limited.
You can show lots of statistics that show that any breed might attack. But, which breeds are more likely to attack and which are likely to inflict the most damage is a more settled question.
John, I know that you are in pain. But your use of the word “cunt” is not okay. I would say it is unacceptable but clearly you, at least when you are in pain, believe it is unacceptable. It is an ugly term, used most frequently to dismiss or belittle women. You are not a woman, just a hurt man. You would not use “faggot” or “nigger” to injure a person. Don’t use cunt. It’s not okay.
Toni
I have to say I disagree with your overall sentiment, but I do understand the loaded weapon analogy. Just like I won’t say all of one type of people are bad, I would never say that an entire breed of dog is dangerous. I love pits, but do I owe one? No! Am I nervous if I’m with my dog and I’m around one I don’t know, hell yes! And I’ve seen with my own eyes the reasons to be jealous.
Now in regard to a cat being the victim, I sincerely believe that many breeds, not just the bullys, can do the same thing. It’s horrible and sad to lose your animal, and I feel for your loss. Hang in there :-/
RedKitten
@Suzanne:
Um…you DO realize that most people don’t have to take those precautions with their dogs, right?
I guess I just can’t understand why anybody would even WANT to own a dog like that…
Mike Jones
@Mackenna: That’s an excellent point. I have a friend who rescued a Doberman about 20 years ago. She was an incredibly sweet girl, and had not had her ears clipped so she had very floppy ears. My friend has a whole catalog of stories about people who met her dog and were happily petting her until they asked “what breed is she?” When my friend said “Doberman”, they’d snatch their hand back and count their fingers. Or they’d tell her “be careful, they turn on you when they’re 2 or 3.” This girl was 5 when my friend adopted her.
*Any* large dog is dangerous in the sense that if it attacks, it is likely to kill or cause serious injury, particularly to another animal or small child. That’s true of pit bulls, Dobermans, Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Golden Retrievers, and any other breed over 50 pounds or so (and a few under). Some of those breeds are more difficult to deal with than others. If you just want a dog who’s going to hang out, be easy to train, not put a lot of demands on you as an owner, get a Golden or a Lab. They’re more “in tune” with people and yes, it’s because of the way they’re bred. If you get a more “difficult” breed, and I’d include Airedales, German Shepherds, Akitas, Malamutes, Dobermans, and Saint Bernards off the top of my head, its YOUR responsibility to deal with the fact that these dogs are generally smarter than, say, a Golden, and they demand more of you as an owner. Then there are breeds that, honestly most people really shouldn’t own. I’ve known and loved a number of pit bulls, but most people aren’t prepared to deal with them. I’d say the same about bull terriers (a *very* different breed, despite the similar name), Great Pyrenees, Maremmas, Weimaraners, German Shorthaired Pointers, and Kuvasok (among others). These are dogs that have been bred for pretty specific jobs (often guarding livestock) and should only be owned by people who are willing to understand and deal with their natures.
I do come down on the side of “it’s not the dog, it’s the owner”, but I also recognize that there are breeds that are “easy” and breeds that are “difficult” to train and manage, and there are a lot of people who really should stick to an “easy” breed. Right now, the focus is on pit bulls. I’ve seen it on a number of breeds through the last 40 years or so and read about others from longer ago. Unfortunately, I think there’s a connotation that “pit bulls” are part of “urban culture” — yes, I mean that black people own them — and that that drives a certain amount of the current animosity toward them.
A dangerous dog is a dangerous dog, and they John’s absolutely right about one thing: they should be put down, and they should not be taking up space in shelters or on adoption lists that should be going to dogs that are not dangerous. I had to put down a Malamute once because he nipped at a kid. I was doing some work with Malamute breed rescue, and took in a dog for them (I’m not a breeder, FWIW, just like the breed) who had snapped at a child. The first thing I did was take the dog to someone with much more experience with the breed for a temperament test. His recommendation was that the dog was not innately aggressive, but Malamutes have a very strong prey drive and he was probably not safe around children. I placed him in a home with an older couple with no kids where I explained patiently to them at least a dozen times that this dog was under no circumstances to be allowed around children. They assured me they understood. Two weeks later, I get a call from them. Their grandchildren had been visiting, and they let the dog be around their kids. One of the kids made a sudden movement, and the dog snapped at him. Malamutes are big, strong dogs. This one was incredibly sweet with adults, but I wound up taking him to be put down because after two incidents — neither of which was an actual bite — I couldn’t in good conscience place him in another home. He died because of stupid people. But that’s the level of care that needs to be taken with a big, strong dog. You can’t wait until they attack a cat, child, or other dog. But it wasn’t the dog’s fault, and it wasn’t the fault of the breed.
Vlad
@Ted & Hellen: “Take my pwecioussss”? I don’t have a pit bull – I’m a cat guy. I’m just repulsed by the mentality on display here – the people (like you, apparently) who are fine with demonizing all pit bulls because of the actions of a few individuals are using the exact same logic as the right-wing brownshirts who think that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim because a few happened to attack us on September 11th.
So, y’know, fuck off right back at’cha, you little fascist gobshite.
Suzanne
@RedKitten: I had a bad experience with a Siberian Husky I owned and had put down, so I promised from that moment on to exercise extreme caution with any dog I would have in the future. I probably don’t have to be so cautious with my pit mix, as she’s much more sociable than that dog ever was (the Husky had a neurological disorder from birth), but I would rather be careful.
I want to own my dog because she’s loving and sweet, and she’s bonded to me and my family. She loves to run and hike with my husband and I, and she’s never aggressed at our cats, kids, or any smaller dogs, even when smaller dogs have aggressed at her. In short, she’s a great dog. But all dogs are animals, and risk is never zero.
Vlad
@Arclite:
It’s not 60%, but black people ARE responsible for a greatly disproportionate percentage of violent crimes in America (including homicides). See the homicide statistics in this Department of Justice report, for example: “In 2008, the offending rate for blacks (24.7 offenders per 100,000) was 7 times higher than the rate for whites (3.4 offenders per 100,000)” (p. 11).
Of course, anyone who’s not an idiot knows that isn’t the case because black people are inherently brutal savages, or because they’re somehow genetically predisposed toward violence. Instead, it’s largely a result of a group of external factors tied to social circumstances that disproportionately affect black people: poverty and social class, racism, child hunger, school quality, exposure to environmental toxins, etc.
Why, then, are pit bulls held to a different standard? If a given pit bull is aggressive and violent, why is that somehow a reflection on the breed as a whole, rather than the way that particular individual was bred and raised and trained?
brantl
@Cassidy: For an animal lover, you’re an idiot about humans.
Parrotlover77
This is so fucking stupid. Some dogs and cats are assholes, just like people (regardless of breed). Some breeds have a higher incidence of attacks and need VERY SPECIAL CARE. Not all of any of them are ticking time bombs.
But I sure as shit will never leave one of my lovebirds alone with any dog or cat. You think your dog or cat is in danger from the neighborhood whatever? My lovebirds weigh 50 grams on average. Whose fault is it if I let them around a predator?
I also will never call for the eradication of any breed because they are ALL a danger to my birds, but its not their fucking fault.
That said, I fully support “breeding out” aggression in any breed because, fact is, pits are more dangerous than other breeds and responsible pit owners know to watch them. But yea fuck the ones that don’t neuter them and use them as a status symbol of some kind.
I will never judge the owner of any breed as long as they spay/neuter or work to make our furry companions less violent.
MikeSchilling
@Warren Terra:
Golden retrievers have long hair and little apparent intelligence
Are you thinking of Irish Setters? Goldens are very bright, which is why they’re one of the breeds used for guide dogs.
Dex
John,
Thank you for this. I’ve been listening to these arguments ever since the Canadian province of Ontario banned pitbulls and pitbull breeds after they tore the face off of a 2 year old girl. I’m tired of the excuses by people who, like gun owners, that miss the point that while in the hands of an experienced, responsible owner, the are relatively safe. But there is no process involved to ensure an experienced, responsible owner. Instead, every dipshit who thinks he’s hard had one, and it kills a child entirely too often.
It’s a fucking dog. You don’t need to own one. You had a thousand other options. Use one that isn’t dangerous randomly.
Liberaltarian
Y’all lost your minds?
Do you have any idea how many pits are out there?
They are common. Exceedingly common.
Other dogs? Say Russian sight hounds like a Borzoi? Not so much. But I did hear a horrifying anecdote about an owner having to literally tackle his leashed Borzoi who was going after a little kid cuz it looked like game. Skipping, flipping his little hands about, you know, game.
How dilute do a dog’s genes need to be before they lose a breed’s traits? Grandsire? Great grandsire? And how come only viscous traits carry?
Dude. I dunno. But I had a chow Shepard golden retriever mix I completely adored, best dog I ever had, and by reputation she should have been a bloodthirsty killer. But she wasn’t.
A dog has four emotions–love, hate, curiosity and fear. All that other stuff y’all are laying on the dogs is people stuff.
I’ve been really lucky. My dogs have been great. I feel safer with Pearl in my life. Would I put her down if she couldn’t be trusted? Yes. But I spend so much time with her and she minds me … But to make y’all feel better I’ll make her behavior an even greater priority.
But I’m not putting her down on the off chance she’ll snap someday. If that’s the standard, nobody should ever be allowed to own a dog, a cat, or any kind of pet.
taylormattd
@Cassidy: fuck off
brantl
True story:
Our neighbos had 2 pit bulls, one very yappy,bakrded at you all the time and that would sneak up behind you if you turned your back on her. The other was 20 to 30 pounds larger, very quiet, very docile, shy until he got to know you. They didn’t get have a fence, or get collars for these dogs. They would dig up the neighbors yards, stand out in the road, they were a nuisance and a danger to the community (and we thought especially the meaner one). They got collars for the dugs after I found them both in my yard for the third time, and called animal control on them.
Later, they boarded a horse for a day, and the quiet, shy dog gnawed the horse up so that it needed 300 stitches, when the horse and the dog got into a dominance war. The horse lived. The neighbor swore the “he’s never hurt anyone in his life!”, and I bet she still does, wherever she lives now.
But she owned the mean pit, and let it roam wherever it wanted, and she refused to believe that the other dog, that weighted abouit 110 punds and would stand in the middle of the road, could be any kind of a problem. JR and Cassidy, eat a bag of salted dicks.
Nathanael
The same is unfortunately true of cats, as any biologist will tell you — NEVER EVER EVER EVER bring your pet rat, mouse, gerbil, hamster, or rabbit into a house with a cat — but just try to get a cat owner to believe it.
Nathanael
@John Rogers: What you said.
Of course, since John Cole doesn’t give a damn about birds or rabbits, he lets his cats wander outdoors unsupervised. I actually didn’t realize this until I read through his initial grief post *way* more carefully.
Not only is his brother-in-law an irresponsible dog owner… he’s an irresponsible cat owner. Goddamn. I hate humans.
Nathanael
@Badtux: “@Cassidy: The point is that my cat could be in my back yard and if the neighbor’s pit manages to dig under the fence, my cat is dead. And don’t say that it’s my job to intercept a pit bull in my back yard or supervise my cat in my back yard. Because it isn’t. It just isn’t. ”
WTF is your cat doing in the back yard slaughtering the local wildlife and disrupting the ecology, while collecting diseases?
American Bird Conservancy and the Humane Society both have something to say about this. Yes, it actually is your job to supervise your cat in your back yard.
Paul in KY
@Howard Beale IV: The scottie can’t hardly hurt an adult. I can kick the shit out of any scottie. The most badass scottie that ever lived is gonna get stomped into jelly.
I may take a few bites, but the end will come for that dog. A pit bull, that’s a whole nother story…
Paul in KY
@JR: I think he dared.
Paul in KY
@Corner Stone: That’s what I was thinking. Who the fuck would want to own an animal like that?! Too tiring for ole Paul.
Paul in KY
@John Rogers: I don’t think a chihuahua or a shit tzu or something small like that is gonna whomp on any normal cat. They might try, but they probably won’t try any more.
Paul in KY
@ConsistentLiberal: As long as the pit bulls were humanely slaughtered and propely prepared, I might try pan fried pit bull.
Paul in KY
@smintheus: Mace just might piss it off. Probably better to have a 9mm.
Paul in KY
@karen: In that saucy manner, yes.
Paul in KY
@brantl: Too bad you didn’t shoot the mean one when it got on your property. In KY, if your dog is not under your ‘positive control’ and is someone elses property. The property owner can legally terminate the dog.
moocow
I’m pretty sure no one will make it to this comment way at the bottom. But Cole can go fuck himself.
Breed is no more indicative of behavior than race is. People say/said the same thing about black/hispanic/irish people.
My bull is a fucking baby – the worst thing I’ve seen him do is try to play with the cat by swatting him on the head with his gigantic paw.
B Lehmann
All I can say is that pit type dogs should never go to dog parks. They should never be off leash and they should never be unsupervised around children and other pets. They do have a fighting history and genetic dog aggressiveness. Pit owners who deny this and call them “pibbles” or “nanny dog” do the breed damage by not acknowledging the challenge of owning them.
So why own them? Pit bulls are capable of great emotional attachment,once they are bonded they have an incredible desire to please. They have anxiety issues and really need to be with their person as much as possible and have clear rules and boundaries. I’ve owned and rescued pits for 15 years. I don’t breed or condone breeding them but there is a huge population of pit type dogs in shelters that are already there.
I would love to see a permit or licensing procedure for dog ownership. I’d also like to see one for babies..oh and guns.
devin
this is one of the most ignorant thigs I have ever heard.thats like saying”Fuck black people they should all be killed becuas there have been sevral incidents where a black guy committed a viloent crime so that obviously means there all dangerous”…fucking stupid