I got a text a bit ago from JenJen that her pooch Stanley (after lord Stanley, of course- it’s JenJen), was attacked by another fucking pit bull while they were taking a walk. Stanley is in surgery and JenJen thinks he will make it, but she is a basket case right now. Longtime readers remember Strider and how heartbroken she was, and now she is sitting in a waiting room somewhere alone and freaked out.
And here is a preemptive FUCK you to people who defend or own or breed pit bulls. I read your bullshit excuses and when I read them imagine Wayne LaPierre’s voice saying them, you dickheads. Guns don’t kill people, amirite? Really pit bulls are sweet if you train them right. Until they kill your brother’s cat and then maul you ten years later or attack a sweet mutt on a walk with a girl who knows how to control her animals. Fuck you assholes for walking around with these lethal weapons. At least these asshole gun nuts have a fucking safety they can use. You just have the faith your killing machine isn’t going to ruin someone’s life, you inconsiderate pricks.
Now that I have that off my chest, long story short, she’s one of us. So please send good vibes to Stanley and JenJen.
And here is a song for Stanley:
Consider my fingers crossed
chopper
Stanley’s gonna be fine. I know it. And I’m always right about this sort of shit.
Calming Influence
Pit bulls are sweet until they’re not. Then they’re more devastating than most people can imagine, because they were bred to be.
Veterinarian emergency surgery is amazing. Pull through, Stanley.
Corner Stone
When my son and I go to any of our local parks and I see a pit bull in the area we just leave. Whether we’re riding our bikes or flying a kite or whatever.
Because I’d rather just go back home than any alternative.
Cassidy
Any animal can be aggressive, including JRT’s, mutts, and large cats. This is a stupid rant.
Good luck JenJen. I hope things go well.
Jane2
Best wishes to JenJen and Stanley’s recovery. Agree completely about pit bulls.
Corner Stone
@Cassidy: A JRT can’t drag an adult human down. And I can get shots if a cat bites/scratches me.
Karen in GA
Hang in there, Stanley (and sending calming vibes to JenJen).
Old Dan and Little Ann
I concur. Fuck fucking pit bulls. Gross fucking killing machines.
PurpleGirl
Good thoughts to JenJen and Stanley. (((hugs)))
Cassidy — Tunch was killed by John’s sister’s pit bull. (Until they kill your brother’s cat…)
Cassidy
@Corner Stone: You shouldn’t limit yourself to a single scenario.
Regardless, point is that any animal is capable of violence. Picking out one breed or even one animal as some sort of singular evil is stupid, uneducated, and oversimplifies a bigger problem. Pit Bull’s, like many other kinds of animals require special care and living arrangements. Same for any other “fighting” breed of dog. This is an education issue, not a “evil” dog breed issue.
Tokyokie
When I was growing up back in the ’60s, some neighbors down the street had a vicious German shepherd that they were under a court order to keep behind an electrified fence. Every few months, it would escape and maul another neighbor’s pet, one time chasing a dog into its owner’s house and killing it in the living room. The people who owned that dog were nice enough, but to this day, I cannot comprehend wanting to keep an animal like that.
Cassidy
@PurpleGirl: I’m aware of that. I’m also under the impression the dog was a rescue/ foster, in which case that dog could have been any breed/ mix and reacted violently to a cat. I’m not unsympathetic to the feelings behind it, but it’s not based in reason.
@Tokyokie: My Siberian is the sweetest, friendliest girl in the world. My sister’s was a mean, vicious killer. It was also in pain all the time. The dog should have been put down, but the problem was its owners who refused to do right by it.
Howard Beale IV
OK, BJ’ers, I’m in the market for a good set of snow tires for my Prius (since it’s almost paid off and I’m too cheap to get another note and its corresponding Subaru.)
What say You? I’m currently running Nokian WRG2’s but I got into an accident two years ago that has me spooked (especially since the WRG2’s are rated as winter tires.)
Gbledsoe
Just read this post and wanted to report an incident that happened in our neighborhood tonight. My wife and I were returning from a walk when we encountered what originally looked like a dog fight. Then we noted a human involved and a group of neighbors appeared with bats and other implements. It turned out that a woman was trying to protect her miniature Schnauzer from attack by a pit bull mix that was attacking. The attacking dog’s owner showed up, said that the dog is usually tied up in the back yard but had slipped out because the gate hadn’t been latched. The good thing was the neighborhood involvement in rescuing the Schnauzer but now we have to be wary of that area in the neighborhood. I pity the poor woman who had to cope with this but also the poor miniature Schnauzer (it was trembling so bad I was worried for it).
dance around in your bones
I had a friend who had a pit bull. He was a sweet dog – most of the time – until he wasn’t. He had a history of running through the campo and randomly biting/attacking kids and cats.
My friend could never recognize that her sweet lil doggie was sometimes out of control. Just totally blind to his problems. I don’t know what you do about that. He really WAS a sweet dog about 95% of the time…..what do you do about the 5%?
I can totally understand Cole’s anger about the dog that killed his Tunch. I’d be pissed as shit. I hope it’s not causing problems in his family. gads, what a situation.
Yatsuno
Holy shit. I didn’t realise that it’s THAT Stanley!!! Big hugs to both JenJen and Lord Stanley’s Tableware!
wasabi gasp
A righteous tune.
Princess Leia
I was told by my dog trainer to take pepper spray on walks because I live in an area with lots of fighting dogs-mainly pit bulls- with crazy macho owners. She even suggested a stun gun, since pepper spray might not be enough when a pit has your pet in its jaws. Poor Stanley- lots of good vibes for a full recovery.
Mary G
Sending good feelings to JenJen and Stanley. I hope he makes it through and if she needs any help with the surgery bills, which are bound to be humongous, I hope we can help.
cmorenc
@Cassidy:
But Pit Bulls are far more capable and inclined by genetic breeding to become violent. They may be sweet most of the time, but once their violent attacking instincts are triggered, they are more relentlessly vicious and capable of inflicting serious or even lethal injury than most other dogs.
Now please quit spewing such noxious “all dogs do it” idiocy, your purported points are utterly unconvincing. There’s a HUGE difference in temperament and capability between e.g.my Italian Greyhound and a Pit Bull, yet you’re trying to argue that with the right training and environment, both have equal potential inclination and ability to become dangerously violent. BULLSHIT.
MikeJ
What breed of dog loves water? What breed of dog loves to herd things, and will herd whatever is around, be it sheep, ducks, or children?
If you think either one of those questions has an answer, then you’ll also have to think that one breed of dog may be naturally more aggressive than another.
I’m glad they gassed the pit that attacked my dad, it’s just a pity that the owner successfully hid it until it put a little girl in the hospital.
MattF
Pit bulls are an issue in Maryland:
http://www.baltimoremagazine.net/chatter/2013/04/pit-bull-law-fails-still-inherently-dangerous
The insurance company for my condo building insisted we put signs saying ‘Pit Bulls and Pit Bull crossbreeds are prohibited’, at all the building entrances. Is this the answer?
NotMax
@Howard Beale IV
When lived in snow country, always had good performance from any but the lowest cost choices from Sears. Dunlop brand, particularly, lasted for many winters.
Cassidy
@cmorenc: That’s a bunch of nonsense. Any dog with predatory instincts and a strong prey drive, like JRT’s, can be aggressive. This whole notion that pit bull’s are predisposed to violence is so much debunked bullshit that your swimming in it. And for what it’s worth, I gives two shits what breed of dog you own, if it’s abused, etc. it can be dangerous. If your Italian greyhound was raised in an environment that a lot of pit bulls are in, it’d be just as aggressive. All dogs do “do it” under the right set of circumstances.
As to the second part, I said that a Pit Bull requires special circumstances and yes that includes training, socialization, and an owner that knows how to handle them. It also includes education, like not owning fighting breeds in suburbia, etc. Again, calling out any breed as some sort of evil animal is fucking silly. It’s the lack of education, like your’s, and the majority of other people that is the real problem.
red dog
Pitbulls have a switch that turns even the best behaved ones into attackers. This usually happens at about 2 years old when sweet dogs all of a sudden go after a kid or a dog they were raised around. Nobody knows what the trigger is but vets and savy shelter workers know this so a mature pit is almost never fostered out.
trollhattan
God’s speed Stanley, and thinking of you tonight JenJen.
I simply don’t trust those critters and like every metro dweller in Freedomville, half the dogs are either pits or pit crosses. Am always on guard (and have plenty of stories, but this is not the time or place).
Anne Laurie
Best wishes to Stanley, and JenJen.
Breed-specific bans do more harm than good, but I could absolutely get behind requiring anyone owning a dog over [x] pounds to pass a CGC test, for instance. And a lot of people should be forbidden by law to own animals of any kind, because it’s not fair to the poor damned beasts who end up under their non-control. (Hell, while we’re wishing, let’s make prospective parents pass a test, too!)
Corner Stone
@Cassidy: Yes, jackass. That’s why if you read really fucking closely you’ll see where I say “adult human”.
Children and infants are vulnerable to many scenarios.
But a 60+ pound pit bull is a viable threat to an adult male where a JRT could never be.
I understand AL treasures the prey instinct you display in comment threads here but it’s really idiotic to try and portray pit bulls and JRT’s in the same category. And large cats? WTF? I show up at a park and see an 18 pound feline and consider my options?
TriassicSands
Sincere hope for Stanley’s full recovery.
In the long run, it would probably be best to end the pit bull breed altogether. As a breed they are involved in far too many devastating attacks for responsible people to ignore. Pretending that this is an education problem and one restricted to individuals is simply unrealistic. I knew a very sweet pit bull once, Rosie, but her owner said he’d never leave her alone with a small child. The problem is no one can ensure that separation 100% of the time over the years of the dog’s life. And once the exception happens, there is no way to undo the damage.
I would support outlawing the breeding of pit bulls — knowledgeable dog people could figure out what exactly is necessary — and an absolute ban on importing them (and pit bull mixes). We can’t control what other countries do, but given the life span of dogs that size, all the pit bulls in the US would be gone in about fifteen years. After that, I would support euthanizing any that are brought here illegally and levying huge fines on their owners, as well as giving them a little time in jail to ponder why they needed to have an illegal animal.
Yatsuno
@MattF: Pit bulls are illegal in Dade county. Your insurance company will ask if you own a dog and what breed it is, and they can decline to insure you if you have a pit bull or a pit bull mix. The actuaries know about this shit and they’re not known for being arbitrary.
Corner Stone
@trollhattan:
No, I think this is the time and place. I’d like to hear it.
gbear
My ex is one of these ‘Oh my sweetie is just the sweetest doggie on earth and how can all these bad people say such mean things about pit bulls’ people. He’s asked me to dog sit while he’s been out of town, and I think it pisses him off that I refuse to do so.
I’ve been out for a walk with my ex and the dog and she’s not well trained on a leash. She’s pulling ahead of it all the time. We were on a crowded shopping Avenue in St. Paul and I was just watching the look of horror in the faces of everyone that was walking towards us, while my ex yammered away, completely clueless.
Cassidy
@Corner Stone: I don’t have to read closely for you. You’re not a real “complicated” individual. Your an ignorant dipshit about everything else, so no surprise you believe all the nonsense about Pit Bulls and how dangerwus and scawy they are. We’ll just add that to the list of things that make you tremble in your boots.
And back into the box. You never disappoint me with your ability to be an idiot.
Poopyman
This thread sure has a lot of pie.
Good luck, Stanley.
joel hanes
Wikipedia’s page on people killed in dog attacks is pretty exhaustive.
Among other materials, it cites the 20-year CDC study that found that over half of all US fatalities in dog attacks could be ascribed to either “pit bulls” or Rottweilers, with pit bulls strongly predominate. Near the bottom of the Wiki page there’s also a year-by-year accounting by breed; in most recent years, the number of people killed in dog attacks has soared, and pit bulls were responsible for between 35 and 50 percent of fatalities.
I have read the passionate defenses of the bull terrier breeds by those who love them. I believe that they are sincere.
But I won’t let kids or cats near pit bulls if I can help it, and I dislike and avoid people who insist on owning them. There are millions of perfectly good, dumb, loving spaniels and mutts available for companionship.
Cassidy
@TriassicSands: You should never leave any dog alone with a small child. Anyone who does that should have their children removed from the home and charged with negligence of some sort.
Hungry Joe
Over the last few years my dog has been attacked several times in a dog park — each time by a pit bull or pit bull mix. One of the owners said, as a bunch of other dog owners and I were separating her pit from my sweetie, “Yeah, sometimes he just zeroes in on a dog and goes after it.” She said it with completely flat affect, as if she were reading hog futures off the wire. I was too busy cradling/sheltering my dog to respond, but one guy said, “Lady, get that dog out of here or I’m calling the cops.” Another said, “If I ever see that dog in this park again, I’m calling the cops.” Must’ve worked, because I haven’t seen them since.
Don’t even talk to me about pit bulls. Whenever I see one I take my dog to the other side of the park or take her home.
Ruckus
@gbear:
…completely clueless.
Seems to be a common trait among people who own aggressive dogs and/or guns.
Howard Beale IV
@NotMax: Right now I’m leaning twords either Michelin X-Ice and Nokian Hakkapiletta. Since I work from home most of the time I can pretty much choose when I have to crawl into the office, which gives me at least a day’s worth of snowplowing beforehand.
Suzanne
Well, I guess I’m an “inconsiderate prick” for having rescued a pit mix from a shelter. Had the dog professionally temperament tested twice, never leave the dog unattended around children or other animals, and she’s passive to the point of having been bitten by other dogs, but, yanno, all pits are killerz!
I am sorry for JenJen and I hope her puppeh comes through, but FFS.
Side note: I will never understand this BS attitude of attribution of all personality traits to a breed. Breed characteristics are overall statistical patterns, not unchangable destiny. And life experience and treatment of an animal matter just as much, if not more, than breed.
If this is an all-pit-bulls-suck-all-the-time-and-should-be-killed blog, then count my ass out.
Corner Stone
@Cassidy: This is hilarious. You’re telling everyone here that a vicious JRT and an equal minded Pit Bull are the same threat.
And you call me an idiot? Ask a thousand people. “If you see an unleashed pit bull and an unleashed JRT, which one do you keep your eye on?”
That’s not paranoia.
Cassidy
@Suzanne: They all remind me of the FOX News mouth breathers who think we should just go and wipe out all the Muslims. White Supremacists make for a good analogy as well. Heaven forbid someone try to think of a reasonable solution to a complicated problem.
patrick II
My wife and I went for a walk in my neighborhood one day last year and happened to cross paths with a lady walking her large pit bull. For some reason the pit bull didn’t like us and suddenly growled and strained at its leash to get at us. The lady was pulling on the leash but could barely contain it. Finally she got down on one knee and put her arm around its throat and talked to it saying “no, no, they’re nice people”. I got between my wife and the dog and we quickly went around the corner of a building to get out of the dog’s sight. I have no idea why that lady had such a dangerous dog she could not control, I just don’t know what she is thinking.
sparky
@Cassidy:
Name a couple of fighting breeds. You’re wrong on this issue and should put a gun to your head and pull the trigger. Oh wait, that would be very stupid, much like defending a breed of dog that isn’t like cats or hamsters or other pets because they (the breed of dog) have been bred to fucking annihilate other living creatures. You can control your impulse to put a gun to your or my head: pit bulls don’t have that in their wiring, and they don’t need a gun to be lethal.
Spaghetti Lee
@Suzanne:
Pit bulls make up 1-2% of all domestic dogs in the US, but account for, as said above, 35-50% of attacks. No one is saying that breed history is “unchangeable destiny”, and no one is saying they should “all be killed”, either. that is a complete fabrication on your part. But you really don’t think that gap is worth noting? That people have a reason to be suspicious of pit bulls and similar breeds?
If you have a pitbull who is friendly and peaceful, good for you. I hope it stays that way. But if I see a pit bull, I’m not going to automatically assume it’s one of the good ones. And, like John said, your arguments sound exactly like a gun owner talking about all those ‘irresponsible’ gun owners. People never make gun safety mistakes, until they do and someone dies. Pit bulls are never violent, until they are. As someone who owns neither, I think it’s rational on my part to play the odds.
gbear
@Cassidy:
Cassidy, please go away. Please. Just go away.
Suzanne
@Cassidy: The vast, VAST majority of pits and pit mixes never hurt anyone. Condemning them to die when it is possible to have them be wonderful pets in the right circumstances is something I never thought I’d hear from someone who purportedly loves companion animals.
Cassidy
@sparky: I’m not wrong. More debunked bullshit. Next.
But hey, let’s annihilate a whole breed of animal because you’re a shitty dog owner who can’t be bothered to educate yourself. That’s the ticket. Hooray laziness!
Gex
What should I carry with me on walks to protect me and my dog from pit bulls? Not a firearm, I don’t want one. But I’m terrified of the idea that it could happen, and I can’t lose Casey now. I’ve needed him so much dealing with the loss of my partner.
All my healing thoughts go to JenJen and her pup.
Corner Stone
@gbear:
He can’t. There are prey here and his instinct is to continue after them.
He’s really sweet otherwise.
spudgun
Staying out of the pitbull debate…I have my own thoughts but decline to share.
My thoughts are instead with JenJen and poor Stanley — sending good vibes for his speedy recovery and supportive e-hugs to JenJen.
freemark
@red dog: Have to call bullshit as my local SPCA does pit bull fostering of mature pitbulls, but not of ones used for dog fighting or that have been trained to be aggressive. And as far as the ASPCA they say
http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/truth-about-pit-bulls
It isn’t all that long ago that Rottweilers were the breed of choice of assholes, and before that German Shepherds. The problem with pitbulls isn’t that they are pitbulls; it is that they are the dog most commonly owned by assholes. Also, because they are probably one of the most common designations people use for dogs, over 5 different breeds and many mutts are called ‘pitbulls’, real pitbulls are blamed for attacks that are done by dogs that aren’t actually pitbulls.
The biggest problems with ‘pitbulls’ is that they are too often currently owned or were previously owned by an asshole. I remember 20 years ago Rottweilers and Dobermans were treated like pitbulls are today and you had to be extra careful of them. Not so much because of their breed but because you knew an asshole probably owned them.
Spaghetti Lee
@Cassidy:
No one on this thread is calling for the extermination of all pit bulls. No one. Nada. If you want to get up on your high horse, make sure your reason isn’t a gigantic fucking lie.
Keith
And a hearty fuck you + eat a bag of steaming dicks for stereotyping an entire breed based on the actions of rescued fighting dogs. Not every pit bull is a fighting pit; I don’t believe fighting pits can be “rescued” from their instincts, but I have seen PLENTY of sweet, friendly pits, some of whom even sleep in the beds with children. Got news for you: it’s not the training; it’s the breeding.
I get that you’re still traumatized by your cat dying, but, hey, your brother (whom you defended along with your sister rather than telling them “fuck you”) brought a rescued pit to your house, and you let it in your backyard not knowing where your cat was. Look at yourself for irresponsibility before going off calling people names en masse.
TrishB
JenJen, IIRC you’re in the Cinci area. I am now right next door to a major animal hospital in the northern Cinci area. If you need help please contact me at trish b at g mail dot com or 267 0505
Corner Stone
@Keith: Ohhhh…snap!
Ann
Prayers, best wishes, and a speedy recovery for Stanley (and for JenJen).
kc
@Suzanne:
Don’t leave, Suzanne. You can understand why Cole’s emotional about this.
I don’t hate pits myself; I’ve known some sweet ones.
Suzanne
@Spaghetti Lee: Actually, plenty of people think that all pits should be put down.
I absolutely think that the gap is worth noting. I absolutely acknowledge that pits/crosses are disproportionately involved in attacks. I am not arguing against facts. I am arguing that in the right hands, pits/crosses can make great pets. Conscientious owners who spay/neuter, train, never permit aggression, and supervise/separate can and have made great pets out of dogs that other people don’t have the skill or patience for. And for most of those dogs, those who never harm a person or another animal, that’s what should happen. I am 100% in favor of requiring pit and other large dog owners to go to professional training classes and to keep their dogs leashed and confined in yards.
wasabi gasp
Heard they’re delicious.
Cassidy
@gbear: Why, because you don’t like being told you sound like a bunch of assholes? Animal lovers my ass. Every fucking one of you that donated money to that shelter should feel fucking dirty and ashamed right about now. I don’t even like owning fucking pets and I don’t think a breed should be demonized because stupid ass people fuck up a perfectly good animal. But like I said, you guys keep up with the FOX logic. Kill’em all, because they’re all bad. Can’t possibly be asshole people.
@Spaghetti Lee: The majority of crime is committed by minorities. Do you propose the same solutions?
And that is what you sound like.
Spaghetti Lee
@Keith:
In some circles, they would call this ‘victim blaming.’ No one, including John, has said that all pit bulls are inevitably deadly and dangerous. They’re saying that lots of them are, someone on a walk or at the park can’t tell the difference, and their defenders seem to have an incredibly blase attitude about it.
You know, some people are providing facts. Pit bulls make up 2% of all dogs in the US at most but account for 35-50% of all attacks. You really think that’s all ascribable to dog-fighting assholes and their underground crime rings? There is nothing in the dog’s breeding over the years that, at least, increases the probability of an attack? In response, you and Cassidy and Suzanne completely make shit up about what people are arguing.
Suzanne
@Gex: Carry pepper spray/mace. I used it once when the poodle down the street bit my kid.
sparky
@Cassidy: “I’m not wrong.” (So says Rush Limbaugh.)
Good reply. I asked you to name a couple of fighting breeds. Be careful before you answer that; the breeds you want to name are herders or protectors, not “fighters.”
pseudonymous in nc
@Cassidy:
And yet they so often fail to receive that. Funny how that goes. And the conclusion is the same: people shouldn’t generally be allowed to own pit bulls, just as people shouldn’t generally be allowed to drive racing cars.
Gretchen
@Cassidy: never leave a dog alone with small children? My toddlers could put their arms in my Golden Retriever’s mouth, and he’d just gag and look confused. Try that with a pit bull. Goldens have been bred for a “soft mouth”, not biting down, while pits have been bred to attack. A century of selective breeding matters. Some dogs are just much safer than others.
pseudonymous in nc
@Cassidy:
Spay and neuter them, then.
You’re just bored on a Saturday night and deciding to troll the thread. Gotcha. Plonk.
sparky
@Corner Stone: Har har! That was a good one ’cause I feel the same way about the guy. It’s instinctual.
Corner Stone
@Suzanne: A poodle bit your child? What happened there?
kc
@Spaghetti Lee:
Actually I think someone up there did say the breed should be eliminated from the U.S.
Cassidy
@Spaghetti Lee: Actually, John has said it before. Triassic Sands called for outlawing the breed and then euthanizing any imports. What do you think that means? We’re gonna put them on a boat and mail them somewhere? So yeah,…you want to rephrase that or just get the apology for being a jackass out of the way?
Spaghetti Lee
@Suzanne:
I am arguing that in the right hands, pits/crosses can make great pets.
And no one is arguing against that. I’m not saying you’re wrong about that, I’m saying that you’re flat-out lying about what people are arguing to make yourself look good. ‘Plenty of people’ may want all pit bulls dead, but none of them are in this thread. You can’t really accuse someone of believing something just because hypothetical people elsewhere believe it. No one here has argued pit bulls are always dangerous, without fail. No one has argued they should all be killed. You are knocking down strawmen and then congratulating yourself for doing it.
@Cassidy:
Do you propose the same solutions?
Given that I haven’t proposed any “solutions”, and am simply asking you to cut it out with the lying, it looks like you’re still off in la-la land. Have fun there.
Suzanne
@Spaghetti Lee: Actually, you can Google “all pit bulls should be put down” and you’ll see that that is a pretty common attitude out there. I’m sure you can imagine that quite a few pit owners get a little jumpy about the fact that so many people want to impound/kill our beloved pets.
SomeRandomChick
My aunt had a pitt that was never a fighting dog. She was showered with love and attention her whole life and I thought she was the sweetest thing. Until she had puppies a couple years later and didn’t like me in her house anymore. Nothing happened except some growling and me immediately ceding the territory to her. I thought it was just the maternal instinct, but a switch had been flipped that day. From then on, for the rest of her life, I never knew if I was going to come face to face with the sweet dog I had known or the growling menace. That dog terrified me more than any other dog in my life.
I say this as someone who was mauled by a St. Bernard when I was 8, losing half my finger and requiring a LOT of reconstructive surgery to my face.
I do NOT trust Pitt bulls. My Shepherd, though? I don’t think she’d fight back if someone was beating her with a baseball bat (and wow, was that difficult to even picture when trying to imagine some scenario where she’d be vicious).
Cassidy
@pseudonymous in nc: No, I just don’t believe in eradicating an animal of any kind because people are dipshits.
kc
@Spaghetti Lee:
Why are you so angry?
Suzanne
@Gretchen: When I put my hand in my pit’s mouth, which I do frequently in order to establish dominance, she slobbers on it. I figure that if she’s ever going to “snap” and hurt someone, I’d prefer it to be me. Hasn’t happened yet.
@Corner Stone: Poodle drew blood, I checked with the family to make sure the dog had its shots, I bandaged up the kid. Still, that dog has bitten more people than mine has.
Spaghetti Lee
@kc:
Outlawing the breeding and importation of pit bulls doesn’t mean killing all living ones. He did say that imports after a hypothetical ban should be euthanized, and I apologize for not noticing that.
Yatsuno
Fix. Your. God. Damned. Blog.
Spaghetti Lee
@kc:
I’m not angry. What makes you say that?
sparky
@kc: He’s a pit bull, man.
Woof woof!
Anne Laurie
@red dog: Dude, all dogs have “a switch in their heads” that pops right around their second birthdays. It’s called “maturity”.
Seriously, look at some obedience training sites — dogs between 10 months and 2 years of age are adolescents, with all the good & bad that implies. A lot of dogs of all breeds end up in shelters once they stop being cute puppies and turn into goofy, defiant, uncontrolable teenagers. But with time & patience (& in a lot of cases, having their ‘nads yanked), right around that magic birthday “their brains finally arrive via Fedex”, as my first trainer put it.
Pitbulls are difficult to re-home because no shelter wants to take the risk of releasing a dog who’s going to end up attacking another animal or a kid. Unfortunately, there are always a ton of ‘surplus’ pitts and pitt-crosses because jackasses and criminals breed litters of eight or twelve puppies to get the one or two muy macho dogs they feel entitled to own as penis substitutes. And quite often even those ‘keepers’ end up at the shelter once the novelty has worn off, or when the dog is big enough to threaten the jackass/criminal in an attempt to take over the household.
I can’t support arbitrarily eliminating any breed, but I’d like to see pitbulls as rare (and expensive & treasured) as, say, otterhounds or foxhounds. They’re not an all-purpose household companion, not in our modern American households.
Yatsuno
@Suzanne:
Dog shouldn’t be in public. I’m surprised with that long a history it’s still alive.
BTW poodles also have a tendency to bite, especially standards.
Cassidy
@pseudonymous in nc: So it’s the dog’s fault? Really? You’re going to blame the dog because people are stupid? Do you hit your kids because you didn’t show them correctly?
@Gretchen: It’s only got to go wrong once. You should never leave any child alone with a dog. Period. Anything else is irresponsible parenting.
Seriously, people. Less than 30 seconds of research can debunk most of these myths you have about Pits. But fuck it, kill’em all.
kc
@Spaghetti Lee:
Re-read his post. He might not use those specific words, but he is pretty much saying they’re all deadly and dangerous.
Spaghetti Lee
@Suzanne:
Yes, but the point is you specifically accused John of saying so. He didn’t. You can’t cover for that by saying other people actually did say that, so you’re still right. Not how it works.
Corner Stone
@Suzanne: Well, it’s to be expected sometimes I guess. The poodle is bred to hunt…umm, they generally attack when…hmmm. The child didn’t happen to have a pheasant outfit on for Halloween, did s/he? I guess those owners are just assholes.
Jennifer
Yeah, I’m gonna have to call bullshit on the condemnation of an entire breed too. There are pits who wouldn’t hurt a fly. The one that Cesar Milan took around all the time (Daddy) being an example of the type.
That having been said, others have raised some really good points, such as pits being the assholes’ choice of breed at the moment.
The fact is that any animal, domestic or wild, can be dangerous, especially if they are unknown to you. But also if they ARE known to you. Animals are unpredictable – even ones you’ve lived with for years. The problem with pits is that they are so powerful that if something triggers an attack response they can do so much damage.
There are other breeds far scarier and more dangerous than pits – such as the Corso and that terrifying Russian breed, the name of which I cannot remember (it starts with an “O”). It’s just dumb luck that the assholes haven’t chosen them as the breed of choice.
Suzanne
@Anne Laurie: Out here in AZ, the shelters are full of pits/crosses and Chihuahuas. Absolutely packed. The last three times I went to the shelter, I’d guess that one-third of the dogs were pits/crosses of some type.
Dollared
@Cassidy: OK, let’s not eradicate the breed. Special licensing for owners, with proof of responsiblity. Zero tolerance for violent behavior. Extra extra special permits for breeding, all others spayed or neutered by one year or large fines.
Pretty much the same regime we should have for guns, minus the castration part (I wish!)
kc
@sparky:
I resisted the urge to say that myself ..
Anne Laurie
@Suzanne:
So, you can have a license, okay?
TrishB
I’m in Cinci and have a small bit of nonsense near me. That small bit is named Pepper. She’s still my pretty companion after all these years. She’s a good 13 year old schnauzer with blindness, diabetes, Cushing’s, glaucoma, etc. Yep. we’re still good.
TCG
@Suzanne: So your dog likes you. That’s not an indication that it isn’t dangerous. Would you leave it alone with a child? As far as I am concerned dogs are like guns. If you can’t leave it unattended for fear that some one might die, you shouldn’t have it in your house.
I will say it, all pitt bulls should be destroyed. I have seen what these “beloved” pets can do to kids and every owner has the same story “but he was never dangerous before……”. I’ve never heard the owner of a pitt bull after an attack admit to it showing signs of being dangerous before. They all plead the dog’s innocence.
They should be banned and killed.
Suzanne
@Spaghetti Lee: Actually, no, I did not say that John said that. However, he has made similar statements in past posts. Pit bulls have been a topic more than once around here.
Suzanne
@Dollared: I 110% support everything you propose.
Spaghetti Lee
@kc:
Cassidy’s calling people ‘ignorant dipshits’ and telling people they should feel ‘fucking dirty and ashamed’, and I’m the one who gets called out for being angry? What a world.
When I’m actually angry, you’ll be able to tell.
Dollared
@Jennifer: Yeah. Corsos. And don’t forget Fila Brasileiro, the breed that was used to catch and kill runaway slaves. At least most jurisdictions have the good sense to ban those.
chrome agnomen
@Cassidy:
agre with this. guns killed 33,000 last year (or thereabouts) pit bulls? not quite so many. but i bet i can find a broader brush for you to paint with, john.
TCG
@Spaghetti Lee: Actually John did say in a previous post that he was in the all pitt bulls must die camp in one his post right after Tunch was murdered.
And he’s right.
https://balloon-juice.com/2013/07/14/another-teeny-tiny-request/
kc
@Spaghetti Lee:
Don’t sweat it. Take a deep breath …
Suzanne
@TCG: I would never leave any dog of any breed unattended around my kids.
Corner Stone
@Jennifer:
And that’s kind of been what I have said this entire thread. If I’m in a park and a JRT or some other breed gets nutty I am going to be pretty peeved. But I’ll probably still be alive to do something about it. If a pit hits the two year old “maturity” mark and attacks then I’m in a fight for my life, if I’m lucky.
Corner Stone
@chrome agnomen: The people with the guns have agency. Are you saying that when a dog kills someone the owner has intent?
kc
@Spaghetti Lee:
Yeah, but he’s always angry. ;)
Cassidy
@Dollared: I’m down. I’d add in residency restrictions/ land requirements as pits require an enormous amount of exercise.
Warren Terra
A few points, in the service of rational discussion of this irrational topic:
1) No-one (or almost no-one) is calling for the euthanizing of all pit and pit mixes; some people are calling for an end to their propagation. The difference matters, which is why no-kill shelters exist.
2) Please don’t compare debates about the suitability of a dog breed to genocides of humans. It just makes you look like a dick.
3) Public perception of pits is an issue here; when Yutsano points out that actuaries prohibit insurance policies to owners of pit bulls, that may mean pit bulls are inherently dangerous – or it may mean that a jury is far more likely to go against a pit bull owner in the case of an attack, and to award swingeing punitive damages. For similar reasons, there may be an over-reporting of pit bull attacks – both that people are more likely to complain when it is a pit bull, and they are more likely to mistakenly believe it was a pit bull.
4) Despite that last: if pit bulls are, as claimed above, 1-2% of dogs and 1/3 – 1/2 of attacks, reporting biases aren’t going to cover it. Those are the sort of statistics that say existing pit bull really are dangerous.
5) Still, there are issues about what constitutes “existing pit bulls”. A lot of people who own pit bulls do so because they want a monster. Given no access to pit bulls, those same people might settle on a different breed to raise to be monsters – Rottweilers were allegedly a popular choice a few decades ago.
6) Only an idiot thinks that there aren’t genetic determinants of dog behavior, and that people haven’t bred for them. Read up on instinctive herding behavior by border collies, if you want an amazing (and violence-free) example. Yes, this can include a predisposition to violence. I don’t know the data, but there sure are a lot of anecdotes claiming pit bulls are such.
7) Anyone who thinks you should never leave any dog alone with small kids has probably never met either dogs or small kids. If you really think this is necessary, I don’t trust you with custody of either.
All in all, I’m sympathetic to the sterilize-all-pitbulls movement, if the claims about an inbred proclivity to violence are true, which can be studied. Still, I think (a) it will never happen; and (b) it falls down pretty fast once you consider crossbreeds, and once you consider other breeds in which we’ve selected for mindless aggression – and I suspect those do exist. On the more practical level: we need much better dog registration (not that this is likely to happen), and much clearer licensing requirements: if you’re going to own a fifty pound dog with a reputation for violence, you should need to be trained, and probably you should need to be insured.
Genine
My thoughts are with JenJen and Stanley.
TCG
@Suzanne: All dog breed are not equally dangerous to children or anyone else for that matter, and you know it. If you had a golden retriever or a beagle and it got loose you would not have to worry about it ripping a toddler’s throat out. Pit’s are dangerous because they are bred to be. Get rid of that thing before it kills something.
Spaghetti Lee
@Warren Terra:
Great post.
@Dollared:
Makes sense to me.
Anne Laurie
@Jennifer: Ovcharkas?
Must not be keeping up on my reading, because I haven’t heard bad stories about the ‘steppe shepherds’ yet. But I’m willing to assume that they’re this year’s Fashionable Killer Accessory for people with more money than sense — the ones who bought expensive imported Cane Corsos / Presa Canarios / Neopolitan Mastiffs five years ago.
Pitbulls are so downscale these days, rich Jersey attorneys and Hollywood developers need a different imported ‘classy’ breed to show off to their competitors and hangers-on. The dogs are just as dangerous, but usually the arseholes who buy them have the money & connections to keep their pet’s indiscretions out of the news…
Violet
JenJen, sending best wishes for Lord Stanley’s surgery. Hope he pulls through and has a swift and full recovery. Hugs to you.
TCG
@Corner Stone: They have responsibility and if it’s a breed that is known to be deadly, I would argue that they are liable. If yo wouldn’t leave a dog alone with your own children, than you better make damn sure that dog never has access to any child. Since that is probably impossible, you shouldn’t own the damn dog.
Suzanne
@TCG: I’m not really worried that my dog would hurt anyone. My mother’s Chihuahua mix has bitten my on the face, and she just looks confused. My cats just meow at her when she sniffs their butts too aggressively. But any dog is a risk, so my husband and I supervise, and keep her crated when we’re out.
TCG
@Suzanne: Ant dog can bite. That’s not the point. Pit bulls don’t just bite. They maim and kill. If a pit bull bit you on the face, you wouldn’t have a face anymore.
kc
@Corner Stone:
Looks to me like he’s saying guns kill a shitload more people than dogs.
Yatsuno
@Warren Terra:
Adjusted. Pits can get huge.
sparky
@Warren Terra:
I second that sentiment, but then I, as a non-pet person or parent, find that the majority of pet owners and parents shouldn’t be pet owners or parents. And I say this on a pet-blog about people, many of whom are parents.
I’m a dick, but I like minimalizing my ethical choices.
Anne Laurie
@Suzanne:
Yeah, Chihuahuas can be every bit as “difficult”, domineering & untrustworthy as a pitbull. But there’s only so much damage a five-pound dog can do, praise Murphy.
Corner Stone
@kc: Ummm…yeah.
It’s a stupid fucking thing to compare.
A Humble Lurker
@TCG:
Any dog’s bite can kill if they have rabies.
Look, I’m not going to get into the Pit Bull thing because I don’t have a dog in this fight. But I will say no matter what breed of dog, you don’t leave it alone with a small child. Ever.
Cassidy
@TCG: Same can be said for chimps. Should we put all of them down before they escape their enclosures?
Anne Laurie
@Cassidy: Dude. If you think people should be allowed to own chimps as pets — think again. But I assume you’re smarter than that.
Rich macho idiots want to own tigers, or lions, or ‘exotic’ mastiff/shepherd breeds, because they think it makes them look all manly. Poor macho idiots have to settle for pitbulls or rottweilers. I don’t think idiots should be allowed to buy living things as fashion accessories, myself, but the starlet with a teacup chihuahua is only hurting the chihuahua — she’s not risking other dogs’/cats’/small childrens’ lives.
Warren Terra
@Cassidy:
It’s illegal in most places to own a chimp without special permits, equipment, and insurance, for exactly the reason that adult chimps are uncontrollably and unpredictably violent. You might want to avoid the more obvious forms of autodefenestration.
Ted & Hellen
@Suzanne:
And that’s another factor about owning a PB that people like you enjoy: The frequent opportunity to feel OUTRAGED in defense of your poor misunderstood potential killers that sensible people fear on sight.
The fear on sight being another factor you enjoy.
Corner Stone
@A Humble Lurker:
Cassidy
@Anne Laurie: @Warren Terra: I was referring to the chimp that escaped it’s enclosure at the zoo and removed that poor women’s face. That’s not the point, though. The point is any animal is capable of being dangerous. Small breeds have attacked babies. JRT’s are/ were(?) used to hunt badgers, FFS.
kc
@Corner Stone:
Take it up with Cole.
Corner Stone
@kc: Why?
am
@Suzanne:
Thanks for saying that. I also know Pits that don’t fit the stereotype (and honestly, I’ve only met one that did out of dozen/hundreds). Most of the ones I’ve seen have been tested for temperament already, but still. I agree with you. The things you read people saying in this thread are monstrous and ignorant. Destroying the breed? What, what about mutts? What about dogs with no history of violence? I feel stupid even addressing the point, it’s so monstrous in it’s implications that I feel it necessary to ask which family pets these people would take away from their homes and then kill in gas chambers.
I hate the ignorance of Bayes, too. Too bad statistics isn’t taught better. The vast majority of serial killers are white males. Is it therefore fair to say that white males are predisposed to mass murder?
am
@SomeRandomChick:
You sound like a nice person, but German Shephards are _far_ more dangerous than Pits in general. I have never met one that wasn’t jumpy and protective. I know of more than one that is a multiple bite offender. Still, a perfectly good dog in a good environment, as your dog shows. Just like the vast majority of “Pits”.
Anne Laurie
@Cassidy:
No, JRTs went down into the fox dens if the foxhounds drove them to ground. Dachshunds were the badger-fighters. They’ve been bred back into good household companions, but they can still be nasty little bastids, much as I love the breed.
Anne Laurie
@am:
Oh, absolutely. They need to be carefully trained to prevent them from activating that internal “kill switch”. And frankly, there are some lines that just shouldn’t be allowed to breed, because they’re just too godsdamned dangerous to society. Look at the Bush family, for instance…
am
I appreciate the attempt to be peacemaker, but more people are killed by lightning per year in the US than dogs (including pit bulls, obviously). Experts on non-fatal dog attacks seem to blame other factors much more than breed. Yet some people ‘know what they know’.
TriassicSands
@Cassidy:
Perhaps you live in a perfect world where nothing ever goes wrong, no one ever does anything unexpected and the kid or kids are always exactly where they’re supposed to be…I don’t.
Of course it’s a bad idea to leave a small child with an unsupervised pet, but even if every parent and every child behaved perfectly, it wouldn’t prevent many of the tragedies that have occurred involving pit bulls. A mother can’t protect her child — reliably or adequately — from a pit bull intent on attacking.
I understand your argument about individual dogs, but, of course, there is no way to tell which dog will and which won’t attack a person or another animal. The heart of the problem is not in the owners, though bad owners can certainly make things worse. The problem is that these dogs have been bred to fight and obedience training and love and affection are not foolproof safeguards against instinctive behavior.
I’m not a believer in a hermetically sealed, perfectly safe world. As a long-time rock climber and solo sea kayaker, I am familiar with risk. But some risks should be prevented, which is why I support strong gun-control. Eliminating the pit bull breed wouldn’t put an end to all dog attacks, but it would prevent a significant percentage of attacks that are, in the aggregate, predictable.
tybee
@wasabi gasp:
:)
A Humble Lurker
@Corner Stone:
Yes dear, that is what I said. Now run along and play while the grown-ups have their chat.
Maude
Pit bulls are banned in the UK.
Corner Stone
@A Humble Lurker:
You’re such a treasure. And by that, of course, I mean complete douchecanoe.
Calming Influence
@Howard Beale IV: I would go with the Hakkapeliittas. When we live in upstate New York I put a set on my Outback after a close call with my not-cheap “All-Season/winter” tires. The difference was dramatic. They even gripped well on icy packed snow (Cautious snow driving skills assumed.) The car would go anywhere, and more importantly stop well on extremely slick roads. I don’t know how the manage it, but they work. Just don’t use them year round; they’re noisier on dry roads, and you’ll want to save their mad chops for winter.
dabba
I look forward to the forthcoming links to articles describing fatal attacks on adults by JRTs, dachshunds and beagles.
wonkie
A lady who lives a couple miles away was attacked by a Great Dane which nearly bit her head off. Great Danes are repsonsible for a fraction of half the dog bires that happen each year so fuck you everyone who makes excuses for Great danes, this anecdote and misconstrued data point prooves they are all just accidents waiting to happen.
A german shepard from our rescue killed a poodle. The German shepard down the street from me is dog aggressive. My German shepard is cat aggressive. These three anecdotes prove that all Germans shepards are loaded guns so fuck you people who keep making excuses for them.
My corgie was bitten by a chocolate lab. One of the black labs from our rescue faile dthe cat test and is cat agressive. Our patrol person has only been bitten once in the five years she’s worked her and that was by a lab so that proves that labs are dangerous and fuck you anyone who says otherwise you didn’t see my corgie’s bite wound or pay his vet bill.
And I hate to say it but maybe the Teabaggers have a point about welfare cheaters because I saw this lady bying juck food with her food stams and she was really fat so that proves that Food Stamps should be cut.
So fuck you people who make excuses about hungry kids needing Food Stamps. You didn’t see what I saw and my anecdotes proove that I am right and your anecdotes, well fuck you for your anecdotes, they don’t re-enforce my prejudice so they can’t be true.
And besides I got bit by a chow mix who was in a fight with another chow mix and chows are responsible for a fraction of half of he annual reported dog bites each year and were bred to be guard dogs, so that proves they ar dangerous so fuck you anyone how ahs a chow our defends chow ownership.
All dogs within a breed are just alike. Everyone knows that! And agression toward animals is just like aggression toward people ,everyone knows that too! And everyone knews the news media is a relaible sourece of factual inforamtion: didn’t the media inform us all about terrorism and the war in Iraq? Anecdotes are data! Repeat the same o0r similar anecdotes and you will have the Truth, espcially anecdoes that appeal to the lizard brain: Republicans know that!
Meanwhile tens of thousands of smooth-coated floppy eared dogs can’t find homes because fearful hateful irrational people who ought to know better have picked them to be the boogey man under the bed.
But I heard about a incident!!!! But I know about an incident!!!! So that has to prove that they are a dangerous (breed, dog, religon, whatever)!!!!!!
MikeSchilling
No one wants to kill all the pit bulls, just to sterilize them. Problem gone in fifteen years.
Paul in KY
@Cassidy: I’ve said this before, but ‘Pit Bull’ type dogs are different in that they don’t bite & release. They bite & hold on & start chewing.
Very different, IMO.
Paul in KY
@dance around in your bones: You put him down for the other 5%.
Paul in KY
@Corner Stone: I can kick a JRT into the next county. Can’t do that to a pit bull.
Paul in KY
@Corner Stone: Well played, sir. Well played.
Paul in KY
@Warren Terra: An adult male chimp can easily kill any one pit bull, no matter how badass it is.
Manyakitty
@Anne Laurie: A thousand times YES!
JenJen
@Cassidy: Way late to this thread, because I’ve been dealing with a lot of shit. I appreciate, so much, the good people who wished and prayed me through it. But I can’t let this moment pass without telling you that you have no idea what you’re talking about, and I only wish I had encountered a JRT or dachshund or what have you on my walk instead of a pit. At least I could’ve kicked a small animal down the block and minimized the damage. Instead I’m looking at a $3,000 vet bill and an ER bill I haven’t seen yet for the injuries I suffered.
But sure, yeah, what I just experienced is EXACTLY THE SAME as getting attacked by an ankle-biter. Pit Nutters are delusional.
JenJen
@Paul in KY: Exactly, Paul. I just learned the hard way: Pit Bulls Don’t. Let. Go.