As noted by mistermix, It looks like House Republicans have settled on an excuse for why they won’t pass comprehensive immigration reform. The details of the excuse don’t matter much — it has something to do with border security and something to do with Obamacare — what matters is that it’s something that (a) the “Morning Joe”/David Brooks serious conservative crowd will be happy to repeat if and when the bill fails and (b) it won’t work with many Latinos.
If I can engage in some high-brow wankery for a moment….it seems noteworthy that many of the most reliably Democratic demographic groups — Latinos and younger voters — get much of their news from sources outside traditional establishment media, be it Spanish-language television and radio or blogs and the “Daily Show”.
Spanish-language reporters aren’t going to lie to their listeners about the cause of the demise of immigration reform, and neither is John Oliver (though Jon Stewart might, truth be told). More broadly, I tend to think that establishment media is intrinsically conservative in terms of its structure: listen to what some rich old white man, grandpa Schieffer or Dancin’ Dave, tells you to think. Even when the rich old white man is liberal (think Ed Schulz or Lawrence O’Donnell), it’s an old-school patriarchal (read: Republican) way of doing things. I wonder how much the whole system encourages viewers to think conservatively.
Villago Delenda Est
Please see my nym.
Thank you.
Villago Delenda Est
Please see my nym.
Thank you.
max
Uh…
Spanish-language reporters aren’t going to lie to their listeners about the cause of immigration reform, and neither is John Oliver (though Jon Stewart might, truth be told).
Shouldn’t that be ‘the cause of the failure of immigration reform’? Otherwise the sentence doesn’t make much sense, and kind of sends the rest of the post spinning off into the universe.
max
[‘Wha?’]
Villago Delenda Est
And sorry about WP going nuts. FYWP!
MomSense
@DougJ
Your post title is now my earworm.
Doug Milhous J
@max:
Thanks, I fixed it.
Villago Delenda Est
Wish I was in Tijuana eating barbecued iguana
The main reason that it won’t work with Latinos is that Latinos are not as stupid as teabaggers, on average.
Mr. Prosser
None of those outlets or commentators encourage you to think at all.
Certified Mutant Enemy
Wall of Voodoo reference == WIN
catclub
@Villago Delenda Est: I think Milhous J will need to add a coda explaining all the young blonde women presenting ‘news’ at Fox, then. They do have Brit Hume, but he don’t wear no skirt on the couch.
PeakVT
More broadly, I tend to think that establishment media is intrinsically conservative in terms of its structure: listen to what some rich old white man, grandpa Schieffer or Dancin’ Dave, tells you to think.
It’s intrinsically conservative because it’s 1) corporate, 2) headed by people who are rich, and 3) features people who are rich (pundits and anchors).
Jewish Steel
That’s what my Eric Clapton album was supposed to be about! How classic rock, a cultural juggernaut, at once encourages conservatism while appearing rebellious.
I completely failed in this, while still making a pretty good album that, ugh, remains unfinished. So the idea is still out there if any of you guys want to make a concept album.
I mean, that’s what everybody wants to do, right? Make concept albums?
catclub
@PeakVT: “headed by people who are rich, and 3) features people who are rich (pundits and anchors).”
I am not so sure. All those rich pundits and anchors make sure to try to give the impression they have the same problems (kids, kids’ schools, finding a parking space…) that their much less rich audience does.
They do not emphasize: “I am rich and listen to me.” I admit they do not have to, because of which side of the camera they are on, but Donald Trump clearly does, and he sounds much different from them.
Villago Delenda Est
@catclub:
Those young blonde women know who their daddy is.
rikyrah
ot:
If you would like to follow a liveblog of the George Zimmerman trial:
http://3chicspolitico.com/2013/07/09/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-day-11-2/
Feebog
Guess it’s going to take another whuppin’ with the ballot box. It needs to happen in 2014, but I think Republicans have successfully gerrymandered enough states to hold the House.
rikyrah
ICAM with you that the Latino population will not believe the bullshyt excuse pushed forth by the MSM.
They will watch Univision, Telemundo and read Spanish-language papers, which will tell the truth.
? Martin
The interesting thing here is how much the GOP buys into the notion that the white/conservative media are the media for all. So this message will only be delivered to white moderates/conservatives, who don’t fucking care why immigration reform died (at least from an electoral statistical standpoint).
Latinos are probably the most media insulated demographic in the country. Brit Hume to Rachel Maddow can say whatever the fuck they want about immigration reform, but Piolin is going to deliver the message that gets heard (largest radio audience in California), and the GOP doesn’t even acknowledge that media segment. Obama has been on Piolin’s show several times, and Michelle Obama has as well – this is what they do when they visit SoCal. They don’t go on any english speaking radio shows, and the GOP doesn’t go on any spanish speaking ones. My two spanish speaking coworkers (both born in the US) pretty much only listen to spanish language radio because it helps them keep up their other language, and because nobody else is speaking to latino issues.
So, the GOP can make whatever excuses they want but the media they expect to carry their water won’t go to the audience they need to hear it. It’s pointless, and revealing that they have no clue that it’s pointless.
The 2007 immigration rallies out here got half a million people to turn up. Now, we all know how hard it is to get even 1/10th that many progressives to show up for anything, but Piolin organized that event and non-spanish speakers had no fucking idea it was coming. A hell of a lot of people woke up to a rally the size of the city of Denver and wondered how the fuck that happened.
gogol's wife
Oh yes, everyone in the mainstream media who’s parroting the corporate-Republican line is old: Jake Tapper, Luke Russert, Mika Brzezinski, etc., etc., etc. Joe Scarborough is practically in diapers in the nursing home, he’s so old!
gogol's wife
@PeakVT:
I would agree that income status is far more important than age in this respect.
catclub
@Villago Delenda Est: But it does not follow that we should be taught by them ( in the conservative handbook, women are to keep silent in church, and not to teach men), so the basic idea of authority figures in a conservative structure does not hold together for the FOX News approach.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MomSense: that fuckin’ song isn’t just an earworm, it’s one of those monster sandworms from Dune roaring around my head.
Frankly you see more of a difference between Stewart and Oliver than I do, there’s been some pretty bad both-sides shit.
I was thinking about the whole liberal-media line yesterday as I was reading some stuff on the manufacturing of the IRS “scandal” (anyone want to be me a thousand quatloos that said “scandal” won’t be referenced next Sunday, with a half-hearted pushback from somebody?) and how much of it was due to the media having internalized that idea and needing to prove their objectivity. Thirty, forty years ago, the “liberal media” was Mark Shields and Jack Germond and similar people in the straight reporting side, Roosevelt/Kennedy Democrats who believed in the safety net like they believed in Mom and Apple Pie. Now it’s Jake Tapper and Chuck Todd and David Gregory’s Perfect Coiffe, who still believe themselves the liberal-media because they think the Republicans are mouth-breathing knuckle draggers on gay rights, but basically accept the Republican message on economics, scary deficits and out of control “entitlements”, and will be happy to repeat both-sides-gridlock-purple-monkey-dishwasher on immigration
catclub
@rikyrah: “which will tell the truth.” Important if true.
I am sure Carlos Slim has no interest in media, or in media selling the conservative line.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@catclub: I am not so sure. All those rich pundits and anchors make sure to try to give the impression they have the same problems (kids, kids’ schools, finding a parking space…) that their much less rich audience does.
and they believe it, much like the UofC law professor of a few years back, warning that Obama’s tax cuts would tank the economy because he would be forced– forced— to fire his landscapers and housecleaning service in order to pay for his three kids’ private school tuition, the installation of granite counter tops and teak flooring in his Hyde Park manse having left him destitute. David Gregory ain’t no fat cat!
Citizen_X
@Villago Delenda Est:
At some point, the freedom to be stupid is another form of privilege.
rikyrah
Oregon Legislature Unanimously Passes Tuition Free Higher Education
[….] The bill passed the Oregon legislature unanimously on Monday, ironically the same day interest on federal subsidized Stafford Loans doubled from 3.4 percent to 6.8 percent. The bill is expected to be signed into law by Governor John Kitzaber this month.[….]
The biggest obstacle revolves around funding the initial program which will amount to 9 billion dollars. Since the first year of students won’t graduate for several years, the committee must find a way to help fund the program. However, since it appears everyone is on board with the plan, concessions are expected to be made in order
to achieve the planned goal.[….]
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/04/oregon-legislature-unanimously-passes-tuition-free-higher-education/
ranchandsyrup
This is good news for Rand Paul. Somehow.
Keith G
Goodness, that is empty.
Brooks was emphatically for the legislation before the the Cornyn amendment (lite) was added. There is more than enough silliness that can be pinned on Brooks without making stuff up.
kindness
Is this going to be another thread where we trash Jon Stewart? I see you give a pass to John Oliver.
WTF is it with you all? Why do you continue to Purity Troll The Daily Show? Thank goodness it isn’t so far. Maybe this is the new version of link baiting.
White Trash Liberal
The bottom line is that the senate can pass a bipartisan bill, and the house can’t even bring it up for a vote. No matter try reason, the appearance of disarray undermines whatever excuse they manufacture.
Those who view immigration as central to their lives will not accept a flimsy rationale, as they are invested to their very blood with a fair resolution. No matter what medium and narrative they view, the empirical reality of the same broken system that is killing people persists.
nemesis
gop= Wall of Doo doo
taylormattd
Yep. And then add to that the following:
(1) the obsession with alleged social liberals to always appear even handed;
(2) the inability of anyone involved in print, online, or television news to describe a lie as “a lie”; and
(3) a large percentage of media personalities and entities that are literally propaganda organs of the republican party;
Suddenly, the difficulty in moving toward a progressive political consensus is not particularly surprising.
Face
DougJ Translation: “If I can write a post for this blog”
scav
@kindness: Well, clearly, the same team writing for a temp would clearly and immediately go all bezerker ninja on any and all topics. Still a man hears what he want to hear and disregards the rest . . . . The lamppost is what it is, whether being held for support, illumination, heralded as the rising sun of a triumphant dawn or catastrophic red-giant phase before imminent destruction.
Zifnab
@rikyrah: We’ll see how long that lasts. Republican strategists aren’t idiots. And oligarchs like Murdoch, the Moonie cult, and the Koch Brothers have been more than ready to buy up the competition and turn the papers into loss-leaders for propaganda purposes (Murdoch even has the magic touch that makes them quite lucrative).
I have little doubt that we’ll start seeing Spanish-language conservative news shows crop up in the next decade or two. It’s not like Latin America lacks conservative politicians.
Dems have a golden opportunity in so far as the Republicans in the House are dumb and disorganized, politically. That opportunity won’t extend indefinitely. Eventually, Republicans will get their shit together. Texans and Floridians are figuring this shit out, as they nominate guys like Rubio and Cruz.
cleek
@kindness:
because it gets comments?
i’m going with : because it gets comments.
ranchandsyrup
@Zifnab: Ruben Narvarette has been pushing for the media king of the conservative latinos for a while now.
? Martin
@rikyrah: UC has toyed with this plan, but couldn’t figure out a way to implement it.
The problem comes with the enforcement of ‘pay x% of your income’. The only agency who can police that is the IRS, and they care fuckall about some goofy state plan. The california tax board could do it, but a sizeable percentage of our students leave the state (or country) after earning their degree. How do we hold students to the payback mechanism once they leave our jurisdiction?
But we really like the idea. Students like the idea as well. I think we’d do it if we could figure out the mechanism. It’d be especially easy for us as UC graduates tend to outearn the average college student.
The biggest concern is the feedback mechanism within the system – would there be pressure to increase growth/development to high-earning majors (STEM) at the expense of broader disciplines (liberal arts/education/etc.) UC has resisted differential tuition due to this, and the % of income scheme is effectively a differential tuition assessed in arrears.
But kudos to Oregon for leading on this. It’s a potentially revolutionary move.
rikyrah
@Zifnab:
It doesn’t matter how many Spanish conservatives they push if it goes against the Latino community.
The number of so-called Black Conservatives trotted out on tv on a regular basis had made not a dent with the Black community. We see them for the slave catchers that they are.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@ranchandsyrup: Meet the Director of Social Media for Senator Rand Paul (i.e., your TAX DOLLARS pay his salary):
Remember, the GOP is the Party of Lincoln.
kwAwk
I actually think you’re on to something. I’ve been pondering for some time why the right wing can pretty much make any radical proposal and make any radical claim and have it be considered to be conservative, yet Obama, who is about as conservative as they come, can make the most mundane claim or proposal and the right can get away with labeling it Marxism.
I think you’re right that it has to do with the lingering perceptions of the big Democratic constituencies as being historical minorities who were engaged in a movement to redesign America in a way that was more fair and equitable, whereas the constituencies of the right were those who historically were the feet draggers who defended the way things were.
But nowadays, having won on civil rights and women’s rights, the constituencies of the left are the defenders of the status quo and those of the right are those who want to radically redesign society in an imaginary version of times past. The media has never really adapted, and those on the left that still insist on labeling the right wing conservative are just as guilty at failing to adapt.
NickT
@rikyrah:
You mean you weren’t impressed by Hermann Cain’s Whine Whine Whine Plan?
I am shocked, I tell you!
Yatsuno
@? Martin:
So is a student loan, if you think about it. And my guess is enforcement would be done through Oregon DOR. You would be correct in that the IRS would not necessarily help, but there is precedent for sharing income information with the states. So there might be ways of doing that.
NickT
@kwAwk:
I don’t think we have won on women’s rights – not even close, frankly. I don’t see that we’ve achieved genuine equality of opportunity, pay, or respect for women in the US. Obviously, the woman on these threads would know more about these issues, but that’s my not-yet-dead white male impression.
Your larger point about the switch of roles between the two parties is, however, often true.
? Martin
@Zifnab:
From what I’ve seen, Latinos aren’t going to back anyone who doesn’t walk the walk. If you don’t embrace your heritage, speak the language, and have pride for your community and background, you’re going to not just be ignored but actually undermine the effort. Latinos are not politically stupid. In fact, I’d say they’re FAR more cognizant of political power than whites are (because whites don’t need to gain that power – they already possess it and are apathetic about losing it). It’s not lost on the latino community that if you hear a national politician speaking spanish, it’s far more likely to be a Democratic African American/Caucasian than a Republican Latino.
They’ve got a LONG way to go yet.
ranchandsyrup
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: The party of bizarro-lincoln. The one that stood his ground against J. Wilkes-Booth and killed him with his bare hands and then destroyed the playhouse because it had a grant from the NEA.
NickT
@? Martin:
I agree with what much of you say – but why do Latinos tend to vote at lower rates than other groups if they are cognizant of political power?
Just Some Fuckhead
Sometimes Jon Stewart seems more committed to his comedy agenda than our liberal agenda. It’s what makes him so dangerous.
kwAwk
@NickT:
I think we’ve won on women’s rights to the extent that we’ve done everything under the law possible to ensure women are treated equally, and if you look at the statistics on how women are now graduating college at a higher pace than men and how men fared worse than women in the last recession, that we’re not too far away from society catching up with the law.
ranchandsyrup
@Just Some Fuckhead: If he can kill the new “improved” Crossfire (now with Turdblossom), I’ll look past any transgressions.
NickT
@kwAwk:
I look at the ways in which employers are circumventing the law whenever possible (aided by the GOP jackals at state-level) plus the obvious attacks on reproductive freedom and the ongoing lack of women at the highest corporate and legislative levels – and I can’t share your optimism. I think we’ve gone some way towards making a better society, but we haven’t crossed the river yet and it’s a hard fight to hold onto the gains we have made. I don’t think we’ve won this fight yet by a long chalk.
cleek
@Just Some Fuckhead:
it’s like he doesn’t realize his assigned job is to be the liberal flag bearer.
JPL
@rikyrah: OT.. Martin’s death is tragic and I hope that there is justice for his parents.
For pure comedy though, nothing beats today’s liveblog of the Whitey Bulger trial. Weeks, a hit man, told the defense atty. to meet him outside and call him a rat and see what happens. Then he had a lovely exchange with the defendant which I guess had f.k… you. no f.k you… you s.k and what are you going to do about it.
Onion boston twitter already wants to know who would win, Weeks, or Carney the atty.
also,, This is why Federal trials should be televised.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Keith G: Brooks may have been for the legislation, but will be agin’ it if the House decides to let it fail. Or, more likely, he just won’t say another word about it. I just don’t see him dedicating a column to how the republicans screwed up, because he never writes that column.
PeakVT
@catclub: Of course they can’t explicitly say listen to me because I’m rich. That would go over like a fart in church. But I bet 99% of the bobbleheads who complain about the difficulty of, say, finding daycare, are 1/2 of a power couple that is worried about finding the right daycare for their special snowflake, not simply something they can afford and that they can get to before it closes. One of the parents could simply choose to stay home, but that might mean sacrificing the beamer and the summer trip to the vineyard.
(I’m sure that anchors in backwater media markets like my own aren’t raking in the bucks, but they’re still paid a good deal more than their average viewer.)
Tripod
@kwAwk:
This disconnect with the old days from the current party system is why filibuster reform gives Senate Dems indigestion and why I’m leary of Clinton, Biden or any older Democrat in 2016. They all still think it’s 1982 and if they make nice with the Gipper the GOP will move on their agenda.
Just Some Fuckhead
@cleek: Thank FSM John Oliver gets it.
Chyron HR
@Just Some Fuckhead:
That explains how he can so consistently deliver thigh-slappers like, “Why does ACORN love child prostitution? Because they’re criminal scum!”
kwAwk
@NickT:
It takes a long time for people to move from the bottom of the corporate ladder to the top generally. In the past women who wanted to move up to the top faced the simple truth that there were a higher number of qualified men than there were women. That is changing to the point were the scales are equalizing, though it will take time.
I know this will have the locals here wanting to string me up from a tree again for saying this but talking about a women’s right to choose actually elevates women and gives them special control over men’s lives. I wonder if the pro-choice crowd wouldn’t be better served talking about a family’s right to choose, instead of talking about how men should have no say in the matter.
If two people have sex and the result is a pregnancy we seem to be saying that a woman can at that point choose whether to have their life turned upside down at that point, but a man is at the whim of the woman about whether to be committed to 18 years of parenting and child support. Having more empathy for the position of the man, I have to wonder, may just help temper down the backlash to abortion.
I know that biologically the process is eqaul and couldn’t ever be completely fair and that the woman has a 9 month commitment to gestation of the baby, but our society doesn’t hold without responsibility during that period of time.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Chyron HR: I think you totally blew the timing on that one. Comedy isn’t as easy as it looks.
cleek
@Chyron HR:
who are you quoting?
(Google doesn’t seem to know, either)
kwAwk
@Tripod:
But I think we’ve bought into the Reagan myth a little bit. Reagan, while he did have a tremendous impact on this country, wasn’t as successful at implementing a right wing agenda as some on the right would have us believe.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Tripod: Biden I think is infatuated with the Collegiality of the Senate. He gave a slobbery blowjob to John McCain early in the ’08 primary that still gives me a headache. Bill Clinton still thinks it’s the mid-90s– the oil lobby is using him in a pro-Keystone ad– but I tend to think HRC has learned a few things since ’08. We’ll see if one of the things she learned is keeping Bubba and big yap under control.
Trollhattan
Wasn’t there a story recently noting the combined budgets of the Border Patrol and INS are more than we spend on all other branches of domestic federal law enforcement? Why are the “serious deficit/debt fighters” so gung ho to spend a crap-ton more money on the Border Patrol when the Border Patrol says “we have enuf doods”?
? Martin
@NickT: What you’re seeing is something a bit different. The average age of Latinos in the US is 27, compared to 41 for caucasians. Young people turn out at lower rates, so much of what you’re seeing is the age turnout which disproportionately impacts latino turnout.
But it depends on state. CA gets far better turnout than TX because CA is better organized and because Latinos have seen at least some of the benefits of that political power. TX Latinos haven’t seen that (or AZ, or many other states). They’re very discouraged. If TX Latinos can get one good victory under their belt (and Perry not running for Gov is a big opportunity), then watch out.
Seanly
@PeakVT:
The prevalence & reasons for having female achors with full & very red lips has been discussed before. Thought is that 1) the look mimics a part of female anatomy, 2) … and 3) profit.
I know there is data that both males & females listen better to female voices. Air Force research into the optimal voice for a plane’s computer to relay information found female voices were better.
NickT
@kwAwk:
Not in any universe that I am familiar with. Given that women bear all the physical risks and burdens of pregnancy, I think it’s only fair that they should decide what to do with their own bodies.
I think you’ll find that men who wish to avoid the burden of 18 years of parenting have some pretty obvious options open to them, including refraining from sex. Or there’s always the vasectomy option. It’s extremely poor logic to try and make this all about the woman’s choices while neglecting the fact that men are capable of making responsible decisions.
Feel free to sell that position to the people distributing bogus pictures of fully-formed babies a week after conception. I don’t believe it would do anything to change their minds – and they are the ones going after women’s reproductive freedoms.
Trollhattan
@ranchandsyrup:
I cringe each time I see Navarette consuming column inches in our local dead tree news. He’s like a cross-dressing Kathleen Parker, another tree-killer they inexplicably run.
Comrade Jake
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Stewart had some line many years ago about how if his audience is clapping instead of laughing, he thinks he’s doing something wrong.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@kwAwk:
And a woman is at the whim of a man deciding whether he’s even going to commit. Otherwise, the number of single moms would be significantly lower.
You’re choice isn’t binary:
1. The woman chooses to abort without regard of the male involved.
2. The woman chooses to keep the child without regard of the male involved.
3. The woman decided with the male whether to keep the child or abort the fetus.
The one option not allowed is the male deciding for the female.
NickT
@? Martin:
I think those are interesting points. How does the voting rate among older Latinos hold up when compared to that of older people in other groups?
Just Some Fuckhead
@Seanly:
Do airplanes feature turn by turn directions spoken 5 minutes too late and with left and right all mixed up?
gwangung
@Zifnab:
2012 proved that wrong.
And it’s going to take a LOOOOONG time for Republicans to repair their damage with Hispanics. They have yet to do so in California.
Seanly
@rikyrah:
WOW! That’s good news. Let’s hope our economy can start generating new jobs so they’re be work for the new grads in 20 years…
catclub
@PeakVT: The original post I was responding to, said that the model is “rich, white, older man, to whom you must listen.” for conservative mainstream broadcast journalism. It is not quite that simple.
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yo tengo tu padre aqui!
(Just kidding)
kwAwk
@NickT:
Nick, the same options for voluntary sterilization are available to women also if they don’t want a child. Women do bear a larger short term burden when it comes to birthing a baby, but becoming a parent over the long term, can have a very similar impact on prosperity and advancement for men that it has on women.
I don’t believe that those who are zealously and religiously opposed to any abortion will be swayed by this argument, but one doesn’t have to win over 100% of the people in a democracy in order to have laws and social mores.
NickT
@gwangung:
From your lips to the bowtie ears of El Monstruo del Espagueti Volador.
catclub
@Just Some Fuckhead: also up and down can be reversed!
kwAwk
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
All I’m saying is that portraying the issue as a ‘woman’s right to choose’ sure does make is sound like the man has no choice in the matter or more importantly no importance in the matter.
Hill Dweller
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Actually, you’ve got it backwards. Stewart has repeatedly sacrificed comedy for “balance”. Far more bits fall flat, and the show has been more bad than good for the past few years.
Colbert goes after Dems, but if feels more organic and less forced. That’s part of the reason his show is the far better of the two.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@kwAwk: So, would you go with the more descriptive ‘woman’s right to choose to listen to other people before choosing’?
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
@catclub:
Oh, that’s easy. Nothing says male propaganda like getting a very pretty female to act as a mouthpiece. Those blonds are simply that…pretty mouthpieces who spout whatever Papa Ailes tells them to say. Fox win on two fronts….pretty to attract the typical male viewer and female to attract the “gentler sex” as someone to identify with. As for why the blonds are personally motivated to be there…some combination of Stockholm Syndrome and Greed?
I personally don’t care what their motivation is….they disgust me even more than their male counterparts.
NickT
@kwAwk:
Despite your apparent beliefs, men are capable of behaving responsibly when it comes to sex and fatherhood. That too many of us fail to do so should not be blamed on women. Women carry the overwhelming burden when it comes to producing children (and often do the vast bulk of the work of raising them too). Until men carry a genuinely equal share of the burdens involved, the rational, fair and honest thing to do is to let women who carry the heaviest burdens make these decisions. This is not the same thing as castrating men or making them victims of female tyranny.
Chyron HR
@cleek:
Well, definitely don’t just do a Google search for “Jon Stewart Acorn” (without quotes), unless you want to bust your gut and send your sides into orbit with gems like, “ACORN appears to be a corrupt organization that aids and abets criminals.”
Man, when you’re as funny as that, who cares about the left’s factual agenda?
kwAwk
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
I would go with the family’s right to choose. Or at the very least emphasize a bit more that the choice of whether to have a child, or the lack of a choice of whether to have a child can have a negative impact on the father’s life too.
Just Some Fuckhead
@catclub: Surely they included an “I should be flying this plane” inflection in the tone.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Comrade Jake: I don’t have clips at hand for Cleek and JSF, but there have been a lot of moments in the last few years when he’s pundit-izing* on both sides doing it and not getting applause or laughter beyond a polite acknowledgement of his bug-eyed mug of exasperation. It doesn’t seem to bother him. I remember back in 2008 he tried to gin up comic outrage at Obama’s opting out of public funding (IIRC that was the Village outrage du jour). The audience barely twittered, and he broke character to scold the audience in frustration “It’s okay to laugh at him, you know”. It didn’t seem to occur to him that what he was saying was 1) not funny 2) so inside-baseball nobody knew what the fuck he was talking about.
* and that’s what bothers me most about him. Just like Ron Fournier, Bob Woodward and their ilk want to give opinions when a camera’s pointed at them, then retreat behind the “I’m just a shoe-leather reporter” dodge when criticized, Stewart can’t seem to decide if he’s a “basic cable clown” or the Jonathan Swift of the late/post-Boomer generation, as in his taunting, full-of-himself invitation to Antonin Scalia a few weeks ago. The audience whooped and hollered as if the Fonz had just asked the bullies at Arnold’s if they wanted to “step outside”, and that was clearly the reaction Stewart was looking for.
NickT
@kwAwk:
When men go through 9 months of pregnancy and put their lives on hold for years thereafter to raise the child in question, then they can talk about “the family’s right to choose”. Until then, it’s all sophistry in the cause of male self-pity.
kwAwk
@NickT:
Actually it is your argument that would seem to imply that men aren’t capable of responsible parenting. It is you that seems to imply that women are inherently better parents.
The raising of a child lasts much longer than 9 months of gestation. The burden of raising a child in our modern society lasts more than 22 years in most cases, if you’re talking about supporting your child all of the way through college.
Frankensteinbeck
@Zifnab:
I see no reason to believe this is true. Karl Rove, their most important strategist, didn’t know they were losing the election. If anyone with brains had power in the GOP, they wouldn’t have the exact problem we’re discussing now. Attempts to court minorities would not be train wreck after train wreck. Much, much less of their money in 2012 would have been flushed uselessly down the toilet. The law of averages says that there must be intelligent people still in the GOP, but they clearly aren’t in charge of anything.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: IOW, he isn’t funny to the Obots when he’s going after Obama. We already knew this.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@kwAwk: That’s all fine and grand, and the relationships where the male is that committed I bet don’t have women running off to get abortions on a whim.
But, to get back to your original point in this: This ain’t going to change the minds of anti-choicer’s one bit. They only care about controlling women’s bodies, and by extension controlling society. Women who believe they can make their own choices, and the men who support that, don’t need a father figure, like a priest, to tell them what to do.
NickT
@kwAwk:
Horseshit. I am saying that women carry the vast majority of the burdens involved. That makes them the people who are most affected – and means that they get to make the decisions.
Don’t like the idea of a child, don’t want to commit, fine, just don’t think with the little head first. Behave responsibly and you won’t have to rant on embarrassingly about how the world let the woman in question take control of your life.
kwAwk
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
You guys don’t seem to see the inherent misogyny in your arguments. So is it the only way that can occur is that a man and women has sex and the man runs away because he isn’t committed to the relationship? A woman who isn’t committed to the relationship never gets pregnant, is that how it works?
Mike in NC
@Hill Dweller:
The only thing Jon Stewart is committed to is his huge paycheck.
Trollhattan
@NickT:
Yeah, the whole dads-rights trope always tasted like weaksauce, especially in a society with such a large proportion of single moms. I say this as a dad.
kwAwk
@NickT:
What you seem to be saying, while scolding me, is that in your relationships, you let the woman carry the burden of child rearing.
I suspect that even in relationships where the women does a lot of the direct labor of child rearing, you’re not taking into account all of the things the other parent does to help raise the child. Sure mommy puts the band aid on the boo boo, but daddy pays the electric bills so mommy can see where to put it.
Kay
I think it’s such a funny strategy because Latinos support Obamacare more than other group does.
“We’re not doing what you want us to do because of this other thing you want, that we also oppose”
This may be too brilliant and complex for ordinary people to understand.
Hill Dweller
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Colbert goes after Obama and Dems. Do you hear/see anyone accusing him of constantly resorting to the typical Beltway “both sides do it” bullshit?
The recent IRS stuff is a great example. Colbert sniffed out the media/Republican bullshit immediately. Conversely, Stewart kept harping on it for weeks, pretending Obama was trying to silence his political enemies. And none of it was funny.
ksmiami
@kwAwk: Actually – f you – what about those cases of rape and incest.. You are on a very slippery slope my friend. Besides, the anti-choice crowd is anti science and birth control too. It’s all about punishing sluts and forcing their antiquated religious beliefs on the rest of us. In other words, there will be no peace or compromise on this. It’s like the slavery issue I’m afraid.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Hill Dweller: .. to you.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Bill Maher isn’t as frequent a topic as Stewart on these threads, but people seem to have different opinions about him. I tend to think he’s funny, but I can see why some people would be turned off by his smugness and too-frequent clumsiness in trying to push the envelope. But I’ve never seen anyone get personally offended by criticism of Maher. DougJ can’t stand EJ Dionne, I like him, I’ve never felt that DougJ was insulting me when he mocks Dioone. What is it about Stewart that makes people think he’s their cool TeeVee friend? Why is criticism of St Stewart second only to Green-Wald Balloon Juice in giving people hurt feelings by proxy? Maybe tied with any acknowledgement of the existence, favorable or not, of Andrew Sullivan
? Martin
@NickT: Don’t know. Finding both age and ethnicity cross-tabs in voting turnout is hard. It’s usually one or the other, and having to infer from there. In majority/minority states like CA it becomes somewhat doable, but our Asian population is a decent part of that status, and they’re pretty comparable in age distribution to whites here in CA.
I need to make friends with someone at the exit polling firms and get better data, or get more deeply involved with the Dem party, which I’m loathe to do. I’m swamped right at the time they need more labor.
burnspbesq
@MomSense:
I wish I was in Tijuana
eating barbecued iguana
JWL
As must have already been said by someone else up-thread, the “whole system” encourages viewers not to think at all.
schrodinger's cat
Speaking of Brooks, did any body ready his high brow word salad in NYT this morning?
schrodinger's cat
@burnspbesq: People eat iguanas?
patroclus
I realize I’m in a huge minority on this blog, but I continue to think that immigration reform has a good chance at passage this Session. I believe that there is a workable majority of House members who will vote for it if a comprehensive bill is allowed at some point to come to the Floor and I think Obama, Pelosi and Hoyer would be willing to stomach whatever add-on’s Boehner wants so as to attract Republican votes. Yes, there are 150+ idiotic Republicans who would never vote for it and they say stupid stuff all the time, but the issues are so compelling that I think enough Republicans are there who will partner with the Dems to get it done.
burnspbesq
@schrodinger’s cat:
In alternative rock videos, anything is possible and nothing is forbidden.
More seriously, I always took that couplet as a commentary on how little the average white SoCal really knows about life in TJ.
Frankensteinbeck
@Hill Dweller:
Colbert didn’t spend an entire interview with Obama telling no jokes, just complaining over and over that Obama didn’t live up to his promise of ‘change’ because there was even more partisan bickering in Washington than before. That was the ONLY definition of change Stewart would talk about, and the only topic he would talk about. If Stewart only acted like a comedian, he’d be judged as a comedian.
Midnight Marauder
@kwAwk:
I can appreciate what you’re saying, but I think that line of thinking minimizes the very real issue of women being able to have autonomy over their bodies. You can’t just smooth that aspect out of the discussion. That’s kind of the whole reason we’re having the fight.
Villago Delenda Est
@Frankensteinbeck:
This is only true if Kkkarl Rove’s bank account is called “the toilet”.
It’s all about the grift.
burnspbesq
@patroclus:
You may end up being right for a different reason. If one assumes that Cantor knows his Machiavelli and Sun Tzu, it would make sense for him to quietly round up Republicans to vote for a discharge petition, because a successful Democrat-led discharge petition would pretty much have to be the end of Boehner’s Speakership.
Frankensteinbeck
@Villago Delenda Est:
No argument. The GOP is run by the most expert grifters in the world today. They don’t have to be good at anything but separating crazy rich bigots from their money.
Peter
@kwAwk: That’s the exact point, you complete tool. The father’s life plans and career options are not impaired in the same way as the mother’s, who is expected to be the primary caregiver at the expense of their own financial independence and wellbeing.
But here, let’s ask a more fundamental question. You feel that the woman should not be able to unilaterally decide whether or not to abort a pregnancy. Alright then. How would you propose to enforce this? What should be done when there is disagreement? Do you feel that by virtue of placing his penis in a woman’s vagina, the man becomes able to give or withdraw consent to invasive medical procedures on her behalf?
Midnight Marauder
@Kay:
It’s a rather remarkable feat from a group of people who seemed to just be reaching their capacity for self-defeating actions. I don’t think they could give away the 2014 midterms any more if they actually sat down and planned it out, which, hilariously, is kind of what they did in this case.
Just fucking remarkable to think about.
Roger Moore
@gwangung:
No it didn’t. It just proved that the Republican “strategists” were more interested in personal profit than political success.
Roger Moore
@schrodinger’s cat:
People eat just about anything with meat. With iguanas, though, I’ve actually heard suggestions of raising them for meat, largely because you get even more meat per unit of food than any animal we’re currently raising for food.
Yatsuno
@schrodinger’s cat: Yes. Yes they do.
Kay
@Midnight Marauder:
The numbers were very rarely broken out in health care polling. I used to rely on this single article in the LA Times in posts on health care, because they bothered to NOTE that there was this huge, gaping difference on approval of Obamacare based on race and ethnicity.
It’s more popular with Asians, too, BTW.
I actually think.it goes back to DougJ’s point. “America” to them, means white people. I think that’s generally true of media, too.
Doug Milhous J
@schrodinger’s cat:
Yes, I couldn’t make heads nor tails of it.
catclub
@Just Some Fuckhead: flash a message on screen “ur doing it rong” , voice, bored 15 year old girl.
I don’t know if there is a text abbreviation for eyeroll.
Doug Milhous J
@patroclus:
It will be interesting to see what happens. I thought what you think a few months ago.
Kay
@patroclus:
I agree with you, so there’s two of us. The western and border states Democrats who want this are ascendent in the Democratic Party, because that’s where the potential growth is (Latino voters).
I bet they get what they want.
A Humble Lurker
@kwAwk:
1) Can you not see how incredibly condescending that is?
2) Women don’t pay electric bills? I think there’s a lot of mothers out there (single or otherwise) that would like a word with you on that one.
kwAwk
@ksmiami:
In case of rape or incest. Fuck the man in that situation. But in cases of consensual conception, which I’m just guessing account for the overwhelming majority of abortions, I don’t think it is unreasonable to take notice of the impact that having a child can have on a man’s life also.
Another Halocene Human
@kindness: tds sux now
Roger Moore
@Kay:
I strongly suspect that immigrants are the strongest supporters of HCR. They almost all come from countries that have actual health care systems, and the gigantic mess we have in place of a system just can’t compare. Since a much larger fraction of Hispanics and Asian Americans are immigrants, that makes them much more likely to support HCR.
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
@NickT:
Not to mention spend a couple hundred thousand or more on the child. We know for a fact that in divorced and single parent families the woman bears the brunt of the financial responsibility. It’s part of the reason why 25% of America’s children fall below the poverty line.
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
@kwAwk:
You’re kidding, I hope. More women than men have been going to college for decades. It’s just that now women are more likely to graduate than before precisely because of gains made in women’s rights, particularly in regards to reproductive health. However, this does not mean we’ve gotten where we need to be. We know that women won’t go as far up the corporate ladder. We know they’ll make less on average. We know in divorced and single parent families they’ll bear the majority of the financial burden. I could go on and on and on. We’re not even remotely close to the finish line in my estimation and I think there is a mountain of data that supports this position.
Kay
@Roger Moore:
I agree. It’s self employment, too. They want a base level of security to go under all the risk they take on. That seems reasonable and sensible to me.
We have 2nd generation (originally) from Laos here. They were the first local.people to sign their kids up for middle class Medicaid. It is EXTREMELY popular with them.
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
@A Humble Lurker:
@kwAwk:
Out of the 6 women in my immediate family (my mom, myself and my four siblings), 5 of us have worked full time contributing as much if not more to paying the bills AND did the majority of child rearing AND the majority of house work, band aiding boo-boos, cooking, cleaning etc. The women have to do much more than the men do. Maybe it’s just my family although I suspect not since I hear the same from all of my female colleagues (regardless of what political party they vote for and regardless of their socio-economic status).
Also, too, if we compensated stay at home moms for their actual work–they’d be making six figures. Just saying…..
Mnemosyne
@Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
My grandmother worked full-time until the birth of her fourth child (of six). But, hey, I’m sure my Italian immigrant grandfather was totally doing his share of the cooking and cleaning and childcare in the 1940s, right?
A historical correction for the confused: women have always worked outside the home. The difference now is that they can get better-paying jobs since they’re not restricted to nurse/teacher/maid (or, in my grandmother’s case, Postmistress for their small-town post office).
RaflW
@White Trash Liberal:
I’m getting the impression Boehner is going to f*ck up the second coming of the farm bill, maybe even before they f*ck up immigration and the ‘debt limit.’
This man will, FSM willing, cement the notion for a generation that Republicans couldn’t run out of a burning picnic shelter for lack of an exit sign.
Russell M
@Zifnab:
as long as the GOP keeps thinking that the ted cruz missle and the rubio rocket are their keys to the latino vote I am willing to let them. Rubio already is slagged on any conservative websites comment section when immigration is talked about. mark my words if cruz puts one toe outside the base he will be slagged as a Canadian born rino and will be primaried by someone even more retrograde.
Russell M
@kwAwk:
ok now you just being an idiot. glad every single abortion in america happens in a potentially 2 parent family. and that daddy has to be the breadwinner. I was raised by a single mother and yet have never noticed anything lacking. so grow up and quit trotting mens-rights bull$hit all over the place. its annoying and stupid.
Russell M
@burnspbesq:
For all the talk of Cantor working behind the scenes to get the speakership why would he want it? does he have a secret desire to exhaust himself trying to get the moron caucus to actually vote yes to continue funding anything besides bombs and tax cuts and obamacare repeals? why take the hassle of the top job when being majority leader already gets him the seat at the table without having to ride herd on the flock of stupid?