Yet another reason to hate the media (thanks, Ben Smith!):
Sen. Jeff Flake’s high school–aged son Tanner used Twitter to threaten the “faggot” who stole his bike that he “will find you, and … will beat the crap out of you,” joked about an acquaintance stealing one-liners because he’s Jewish, and went by the name “n1ggerkiller” in an online game.
“I’m very disappointed in my teenage son’s words, and I sincerely apologize for the insensitivity. This language is unacceptable, anywhere. Needless to say, I’ve already spoken with him about this, he has apologized, and I apologize as well,” Sen. Flake said in a statement to BuzzFeed.
Although Tanner has since locked his Twitter account, a series of tweets from January and February show the Arizona Republican’s son repeatedly using the slurs.
Yes, by all accounts, this teen-age boy seems to be a real asshole. But guess what- that is the actual job description for teenager- “hormonal rebellious asshole with an undeveloped frontal lobe prone to testing boundaries and doing stupid and often dangerous stuff. Also too, nocturnal emissions.” That’s basically what teenage boys do. Hopefully, he will grow out of it, and maybe one day even become a better man than his father (we can hope), but it just irritates me when a national story is made out of the child of a politician, whether it be Al Gore’s kid or Chelsea or the Bush twins or Obama’s kids or anyone else.
It just strikes me that there are enough asshole politicians doing horrible awful things that focusing on someone’s kid strikes me as just, well, bullshit. Now, thanks to Ben Smith and company, this kid has this around his neck for the rest of his life. And yes, I know it is his fault for tweeting it, but fer fuck’s sake, Ben, you hit-mongering douche canoe. This kid is a teen, what the fuck is your excuse? I mean, it’s not like his dad doesn’t provide enough assholish behavior already for you to chronicle.
Just Some Fuckhead
Republicans will be Republicans!
Even the little ones.
Redshirt
I hate to say this, but Sen. Flake and his wonderful boys took my dream vacation – abandoned on a tropical island with a few supplies. Here.
I hate to say it of course because I fucking hate Republicans more than anything in this world.
Dolly Llama
Sorry to disagree with you, Mr. Cole. This shit comes from SOMEWHERE. It’s of public interest. If it’s a case of the kid “getting it honestly,” well, it’s fair game. If the man has no more control over his house than this, or if his son hates him so bad that he’d deliberately put his old man in this situation, well, you have to wonder about handing over even a sliver of control of the country over to him.
Comrade Jake
Name your kid Tanner, and you’re practically begging for him to grow up a douchecanoe.
Just Some Fuckhead
It’s just the liberal media. You’d never hear a story, for instance, about a politician’s family member threatening to “kill whitey”.
trollhattan
If he keeps it up, little Master Flake can become governor!
dedc79
When a political party claims to speak for “family values”, and tries to legislate those “values” on the rest of us, why shouldn’t their own family values be in play?
reflectionephemeral
Agreed in general. He’s not a public figure, he’s a kid.
That said: “n1ggerkiller”?!?! That is… far beyond the norm of idiot kid boundary testing.
Redshirt
Way to bigfoot Cole’s post, Cole.
Dolly Llama
@Dolly Llama: Clarification: Maybe not “in the public interest,” but for damn sure posted in the public sphere. So it’s a difference without a distinction at this point.
Hillary Rettig
@reflectionephemeral: exactly
besides, there are all kinds of ways to be a teenaged idiot: racist homophobic idiot is a choice
i see your point, John, about how kids of politicians should be left alone. but I don’t think it’s a blanket rule, and I think this is an appropriate exception.
Dolly Llama
@reflectionephemeral: EXACTLY. The “faggot” comment could be dismissed as childish vestiges of shit we should all be shedding altogether. The “Jew” thing is moving well into creepiness. The “N” thing? THAT is what differentiates this, in my mind, from the mindless Twitter wars that the Palin children, f’rinstance, have waged in the past. This is officially hateful. If your kid is aping you with this, you have a real problem. If your kid is rebelling against you with this, you have a real problem. Either way, a voter must begin to wonder if your time would be better spent pulling your son back from what’s looking to be a REAL unpromising future.
And another thing...
My sister says the reason teenagers act like aholes is so that when they move out, you don’t mind so much.
The Fat Kate Middleton
You’re absolutely right here, John. As a teacher of said teenage asshole boys, I had to hang on to the belief that they’d grow/change/be pretty good guys ten years down the road. And I usually learned that they were, if they weren’t the ones that didn’t end up in jail. It was the really well-behaved ones that often turned out to be Republican assholes.
the Conster
@efgoldman:
Get used to it – they’re all going to be like this. The best two teams will be unrelenting.
ruemara
Sorry man. I know kids do stupid things, but “N1ggerkiller” is just the wild free spirits of a teen boy? No. I couldn’t even have imagined creating a handle like that as a kid, so, while I may agree that it’s not the most important thing to make national news, especially since I am waiting for that USSC decision on DOMA, but fuck no on letting it go because-hijinks.
TG Chicago
@reflectionephemeral:
Agreed.
The thing was, I didn’t know whether the kid’s dad was R or D when I read that, but I was assuming D since Cole was defending (kinda), and I was thinking “Whoa… I don’t know if I can defend this in any way.”
Then it turns out the dad is an R. Hmmmph.
The other stuff is stupid and bad, but that username is just SO stupid and bad. Not only the obvious badness, but the fact that the kid knows it’s bad enough to get flagged, so he puts the 1 instead of i to get around filters. I mean… that’s bad.
And while I get Cole’s point, if a parent is that bad, it makes me wonder.
Forum Transmitted Disease
Any weapon at hand, John. Republicans do it to Dems all the time. Google Sasha or Malia Obama and toss the adjective “whore” in with your search. Enjoy.
MikeJ
I hate to give the benefit of the doubt to a Republican, but sadly I agree with Cole.
I may kill myself after writing that final clause.
NotMax
Frosted Flake?
TG Chicago
@Dolly Llama:
Yeah, good point. The anti-Semitism and homophobia were “casual”, but the racism was suggestive of active violence. That’s seriously troubling.
Tractarian
Fixed.
So, as it turns out, it’s actually Al Gore’s fault.
The Fat Kate Middleton
And, yeah, this:
It just strikes me that there are enough asshole politicians doing horrible awful things that focusing on someone’s kid strikes me as just, well, bullshit.
? Martin
We’ve made pretty big strides in the last decade to eliminate bullying and increase tolerance among young people. Well, maybe Reddit gets all the credit there, I don’t know – but calling someone a ‘faggot’ will get you shunned in my son’s high school. But then my teenage son doesn’t know any kids of entitled Republican senators, so maybe there’s a loophole in AZ we’re unaware of.
PhoenixRising
Let’s raise that bar so lil’ Tanner doesn’t trip on it.
Those slurs are hate speech that he’s hearing from somewhere. Apologies accepted but Sen. and Mrs. Flake ought to be reflecting on their son’s school setting. Where is he getting the nasty ideas underlying his annoying asshole expressions? Surely not at home. Right?
As the parent of a teenager I think I see this differently than a lot of annoying lil’shithead behaviors. I will fight for my kid’s right to be a dumbass 7 days a week, but this kind of insult against groups of ‘others’ isn’t being a hormonally challenged dumbass, it’s being a bigot. The first one you grow out of.
My friend recounted a suspension her oldest got, that she refused to advocate for the child to avoid, for using a racial slur in school as follows: “I had to be restrained from beating the child to death when I realized that the assumption the kid and teacher brought to the tabl was that I’m always in there fighting for my kid’s rights. There isn’t a right to be racist and get away with no consequences!”
TG Chicago
From the original story:
Still want to defend this family, Cole? This is disgusting.
burnspbesq
Kids should be off limits. Period, full stop, no exceptions. There are no good arguments to the contrary, so save your breath.
Redshirt
“Tanner Flake”.
What’s up with Republican’s kids names? Or is it just a general “all names are weird now cuz you’re old” thing? Track Tanner Scout Dakota Tagg.
lojasmo
I blame the greek system.
Dolly Llama
@TG Chicago: I can’t tell if you’re chastising me here or agreeing with me, but either way, the point’s well taken. None of it is acceptable, even for a punk-ass kid with a Twitter account, but there are degrees of punk-assed-ness, and this kid’s gone past it. Any embarrassment his old man feels is deserved, regardless of the backstory.
Comrade Dread
I’m just grateful that I grew up in the age before the internet, so all of my stupid, assholish, dumb, irresponsible, and (in my case, unintentionally) racist statements were part of the public record forever.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
:golfclap:
I usually agree about kids, but in this case… My theory is that kids today don’t learn this shit on the playground anymore. I don’t have any kids, so I don’t know, but doesn’t it seem kind of odd that a high school age kid thought it was okay to put shit like this on the internet? Isn’t this kind of racism socially unacceptable? This isn’t some dopey kid who can’t figure out why he can’t say that word when rappers do it, this is some hateful stuff.
Redshirt
I’m a little disturbed at the growing “Buzzfeed/Republican” confluence. What’s happening? The two streams should never cross, and yet here we are, with Buzzfeed’s political section recently being “Koch sponsored”.
Its a way to get to the utes, I think.
Little Boots
feel bad for this kid. hard to grow up in public.
Dolly Llama
@TG Chicago: If that’s true, why in the FUCK are we just now hearing about it? Why weren’t these fucking things the centerpiece of attack ads? It’s possible (probable?) that such a tactic would actually HELP this stealth-white-power fucker in his district, but at least it would have made calling the question a much more honest civic exercise.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Redshirt: Buzzfeed’s coverage strikes me as slanted to reflect GOP spin. Last week there was a story by a guy who used to write for Josh Marshall that really made me roll my eyes.
? Martin
I don’t mean to grab a two wrongs argument here, but this kid was going to have it around his neck no matter what. They run a ‘digital tattoo’ campaign at my kids high school. Basically a reminder that there is no anonymous jerk-off time any more. You can’t go around calling people ‘faggot’ and then just pretend it never happened, because it got stored in teh googlies forever. And it’ll get retweeted and walled and put on YouTube and every fucking thing us 40 year olds never had to contend with.
And that’s not meant to be an indictment of how bad kids have it, but really a reminder that those of us that went through high-school pre-internet also had the ability to institutionalize our hate because nobody was ever going to call us on it, not in the big way. That’s a big reason why young people are more tolerant – they get called on it by the people that were never supposed to hear it, by the people they didn’t want to hurt but hurt anyway because they were being dickheads. So yeah, this kid got called on it, but go troll through any social media service and you’ll find countless other non-senator kids getting their two minute hate published to the world as well. Stop feeling sorry for the kid – this is the world he’s living in whether he likes it or not. And he’s got it a lot better than the girls getting roofied, raped, and then having that video passed around the school.
Redshirt
@TG Chicago: Yeah, but so are all Republican websites. What’s the difference?
Amir Khalid
I’m with those who find this to be rather more than the usual teenage-boy butt-headedness.
reflectionephemeral seems to have it right: a self-consciously offensive handle like he used doesn’t sound like an accident. At this stage the needed correction should certainly come from within Tanner Flake’s own family, but it’s sobering to realise this was going on in a public space like Twitter with his father quite unaware of it. Did Jeff Flake not think to follow his son on Twitter?
Redshirt
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’s totally slanted, and becoming more so. I just am very curious as to why Buzzfeed’s honchos – who were doing well enough before adding a political section – thought their user base would want a Republican spin. It seems to me a completely different grouping entirely – for example, they have an LGBT section.
So, what’s up, Buzzfeed? Is it all Ben Smith?
Little Boots
just imagime if Johnny had to grow up in public.
imaginne.
Forum Transmitted Disease
An example from my own life: thirty years ago I was 17. And I delighted in pissing people off. Really did. Loved to be rude, crude and offensive. I was a musician with big loud amps, and that helped me in my quest to piss off everyone no end.
My drummer decided to toss the word “nigger” out at band practice one day. I can’t even remember in regard to what. Now, he was a damn good drummer, even by my standards today, and good drummers are impossible to find. I put up with a lot out of this guy.
But not that. I fired his ass on the spot. And threw him out of the house. That was a line that you did not cross with me, my friends, any of my peers, or frankly at my high school. That was not done, not in public at the very least and with my peer group, not even in private.
I find it impossible to believe that kids nowadays are more racist than they would have been in 1983. This boy is a shithead, which is one thing, but he’s a shithead with some serious problems, and that’s worth talking about.
feebog
With all due respect to Cole, Burnsesq and the rest of you who think this kid’s behavior should be off limits, I call bullshit. He is posting on public media. And you do pick up this kind of mindset from somewhere, usually at home. As pointed out upthread, this is hate speech, and should merit more than just “a talkin’ to”. This kid has some serious problems that go far beyond the usual stupid teenage insensitivity stage of life. Senator Flake needs to get this kid some serious counseling.
Hillary Rettig
@ruemara: I’m also thinking about how Romney was such a nasty piece of work as a teenager (a bully, including to a sight-impaired teacher), and he grew up to be…a nasty bully!
I also have to wonder at the family dynamics where the kid either didn’t realize or didn’t care he was potentially sabotaging his dad.
Besides, I thought we weren’t using the “boys will be boys” excuse any more.
Little Boots
or we could just love johnny, although he’s kind of a dick, I do love him, and I think most of us do.
ellie
@Comrade Jake: hahahahaha! I was going to say the same thing, less eloquently though.
lojasmo
@Comrade Jake:
I have a nephew Tanner. He was raised by my brother, who is a douchecanoe.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
As I said, no kids, also not a gamer, but it’s hard to believe none of his friends/ peers ever mentioned this to a parent, who might have a discreet word with Mr or Mrs Flake. I mean: “N*****rkiller”. And where are all those obsessive aides I see on shows like Veep? wouldn’t looking at a family’s social media be part of somebody’s job? Somebody junior to someone like me who’s old enough to remember Billy Carter?
Cacti
Young Master Flake sounds like your typical, East Valley Republican sprog. This is the part of Maricopa County where Joe Arpaio runs up his victory margins. Racial slurs are high humor there.
vhh
Why do these GOP pols inflict these names on their sons? There’s Tagg Romney, Trigg and Track Palin, and now Tanner Flake. It might be an attempt to play an Ivy League WASP having a first name that could be a last name, like Erskine Bowles or Leverett Saltonstall or Thurston Howell. But Tagg, Trigg, Track and Tanner are risible. And what is with all the Ts?
Little Boots
still no omnes?
sad,
tjhis is wrong
Odie Hugh Manatee
I’m sure that he had a stern talk with his son. I imagine it went something like this:
“Son, we talk like that here at home because we are among family. When you are anywhere else, hold your tongue or I’ll beat your ass like it was a Democrat!”
Cacti
@vhh:
Tanner and Flake are both surnames from blue blood Mormon families. Jeff Flake is a Mormon legacy pol.
MattR
@efgoldman:
I am fine with the child suffering consequences for his actions, but I have issues with stories like this that want to tar the parents for the actions of their child. Admittedly, this is significantly more extreme behavior than the other examples Cole listed which does open the door to reaching conclusions about Senator Flake as a person based on his actions as a father. But I think there is enough in Flake’s own record to reach those conclusions without looking into his family life.
? Martin
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
It’s communal. In my corner of OC, where there’s lots of upper middle income families, lots of open two mom and two dad families, lots of mixed race parents, it’s a pretty tolerant place. The Bible thumpers can’t get their hate on either because there’s enough Muslims and Hindus and Taoists and Buddhists and Jews and atheists to push back. And almost everyone is from somewhere else, so there’s no real dynastic tribalism either. There’s just not much space for intolerance to breed here. But I know if you go just a few cities over, it’s a different matter. Go all the way to Minnesota, and it’s different yet.
Kids are a product of their communities, not just their parents. That was true for you. That’s true for Flake’s kid too.
El Caganer
Even though I agree with much of what you say, Mr. Cole, I still think there’s something wrong with posting your nocturnal emissions on Twitter. Or am I misunderstanding you?
Scotius
Sorry Cole, but the week that jury selection begins for George Zimmerman I don’t feel like letting “n1ggerkiller” slide. I don’t care how young he is. He posted that. He gets to own it.
Suffern ACE
@Cacti: Tanner was also the bad news bear who finally stood up for Lupus.
Narcissus
On the one hand I don’t give a shit about a politicians family. On the other hand I’ve never known a bigot who wasn’t raised by other bigots.
gbear
@efgoldman:
Can you imagine how much hot water Jeff Flake would get himself into by now if he knew how to use Twitter?
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
This is the privileged white scion of a privileged white conservative. Niggerkiller? (no, I will not fucking dress it up with numbers and shit, let’s just say exactly what the miserable little fuck meant)
THIS is a reflection of the family that overprivileged young master Tanner comes from; and it is ABSOLUTELY something that I, speaking as one of those niggers the little fucker wants to kill, WANT AND DESERVE TO KNOW ABOUT.
You’re wrong on this one, Cole.
Chris
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
Related: I literally just now sat through a conversation on the other side of the room between two white Southerners in my age range (mid to late twenties) who hit EVERY fucking Lost Cause note. The South was about traditional culture and chivalry; Lincoln was a tyrant who deserved whatever he got; Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were totally pro-freeing the slaves, and it would’ve been orderly and efficient, not like what the DamYankees brought; and best of all, “there were more abolitionists in the South than in the North” (proving that it would totally have happened). And those were grad students, upstanding members of Polite Society, not delinquents living on the fringes.
Even if there’s less racism in my generation, there’s just as much mythologizing about the glories of racist ancestors – now in the sense that “oh, they were totally pro-black, they just didn’t have a chance.” Ironically, growing up in a post-civil rights society where they were told that racism is bad makes it easier for them to accept that kind of bullshit – since no one in their generation preached eugenics at them, they find it easy to believe that that’s the natural state of affairs and can’t conceive that it might have been otherwise, so the “South would TOTALLY have freed the slaves” explanation goes by easily.
Mushy moderates would argue that it doesn’t matter because even if they believe all that BS about the past, they still admit slavery and racism were bad things. Trouble is, though, that even if you agree with that (and I don’t), that kind of obliviousness and refusal to own up to the crimes of your tribe still makes you incredibly easy to manipulate for people who ARE malignantly racist. The KKK’s success was based as much on white indifference as white hate.
I’m rambling, I’m sorry. Bottom line: white tribalism/racism/identity politics is alive and well in my generation. And frankly, I’m not counting on young white people to change the country so much as I am on the fact that so many young people aren’t white.
Gian
Count me in the number who think that the son of a politician who gets elected by spewing hate isn’t exactly rebelling when he simply takes that same hate and cranks it up to 11.
maybe he’ll grow up and rebel against daddy and learn to deal with the fact that there are people in the world who aren’t just like him and that they have a right to exist. But he ain’t there yet.
fuck the handwringing over it. it’s akin to the handwringing over pointing out that a GOP VP candidate who wants the whole country to go abstinence only sex ed has a knocked up underage out of wedlock daughter.
these things are the natural results of their world-views.
LizMcK
Yeah, this kid is nothing like a two-bit Joffrey Lannister, it’s terrible for him to have to learn that actions have consequences.
I mean just look at his sweet little smile!
AxelFoley
Fuck all ya’ll who pass this off as “kids being kids” or “let’s leave family out of this”.
I swear, white privilege is a muthafucka.
Corner Stone
Who is Tanner Flake?
Cacti
@Corner Stone:
Teenage sprog of the junior Senator from Arizona.
Mike in NC
Fuck the entire Flake klan.
shortstop
@reflectionephemeral: Yep and yep.
I was a pretty boundary-pushing teenager who knew a lot of boundary-pushing teenagers. At no point would it ever have occurred to any of us to proudly name ourselves after murderers of black people. That kid is seriously fucked up.
And also this from Amir Khalid:
Or at least have some hapless intern do it? Was absolutely everybody asleep at the IBM Selectric?
TG Chicago
@Dolly Llama: I see why you thought I might have been sarcastic, but I was sincerely agreeing with you. Sorry for the confusion.
ranchandsyrup
The game done changed, Cole. Flake’s a public figure and if he didn’t have a discussion with his boy about his online presence, that is on him.
Cacti
@AxelFoley:
Teenage white kid drops the N-bomb?
“Awww, give him a break, he’s just a kid”.
Teenage black kid walks through white neighborhood with a pack of Skittles?
“Call 911 and pass me the bullets!”
The Other Bob
I hate to admit it, but I used the N-word once when I was around 14 or 15. I was an idiot. I really did not get what it meant. I am very embarassed by it, especially considering I now have a multi-racial family. Fortunately my older sister heard me and called me on it.
I would think kids should know better now, but maybe I am wrong.
El Caganer
@Corner Stone: It’s some kind of bathtub meth they make in Arizona.
Cacti
O/T from the Twitters:
#ChrisHayes …. Comparing #Snowden with #MLK is like comparing #AllInWithChrisHayes with something worth watching.
LOL
Corner Stone
I used to enjoy Dana Priest. It’s sad she seems captured by the Village nowadays.
Corner Stone
@Cacti: Link to the sage of twitterdom who coined that witty riposte?
Cacti
@Corner Stone:
I picked it up secondhand.
Chris
@The Other Bob:
Similar story here, except I was more like 5 or 6, and had literally no idea what the word meant. And instead of my older sister, it was my dad. BOY was he pissed. Calmed down a few moments later when he realized I had no idea what I’d said, but made it clear as crystal that that word would never be used again. I only remember bits and pieces from that age, but damn if I don’t remember that.
TG Chicago
@Forum Transmitted Disease: EX ACT LY. You’re a couple years older than I am (not many, alas…), but even back in my teen years I knew better than to casually use that word. And I grew up in Tennessee!
And this was not just casual use — this is saying you are going to KILL these people. It’s truly terrible.
MikeBoyScout
This is not an easy call, for all the reasons other commenters have stated. But Ben Smith is wrong to make this a story about the child of a politician – which is Smith’s lead sentence.
The story is about violence threatening racism and bigotry in the public sphere.
(As an aside social media proprietors really can’t parse the 1990s technology of hiding shit with numbers and special characters in a user name? REALLY?)
but in the end there’s no place for this fkstain to hide or hide his relationship to his public dad.
James E. Powell
The kid is displaying his worldview – where do you think he got that from?
I know people like this. This is how they talk, this is how they think. Are you really sure it something a kid grows out of? How does that work?
Another Halocene Human
In my experience (as a former junior high student, once upon a time) the kids who use and repeat these kinds of slurs are parroting what they heard at home. If they do it at school despite being caught they do it with their parents’ approval.
Sure, at a certain age you start get kids testing out stuff their parents have forbidden. So is it … “do as I say, not as I do” and the kid decided “I’m old enough to do… too” or is it “I’m going to be the complete opposite of you”?
Well, it’s Jeff Flake.
Also, too, I wouldn’t go after the kid. Haven’t checked my email inbox so I don’t know if the liberalosphere has started 10 petitions about Jeff Flake’s awful kid and is fundraising about it.
However, the notion that the immediate community–classmates, school, parents, Flakes own colleagues–might not take notice of these PUBLIC comments is kind of absurd. Kid’s getting called out like anyone else. He’s embarrassing his daddy–like anyone else. If daddy owned a car dealership it might end up in the local business section too.
That’s a far cry from Limbaugh tearing into Chelsea Clinton because she’s “ugly” at 13.
Corner Stone
@Cacti:
Oh. Ok, thanks anyway.
cokane
cole is right, some commenters here are idiots.
anybody thinking a teenage boy choosing racist handles on an online video game proves he’s actually racist clearly has zero experience with boys who’ve played online games. idiots here using this as an opportunity to browbeat some teenager, it’s pretty pathetic honestly
Redshirt
@James E. Powell: Education. Expansion of worldview. A person willing to accept new viewpoints. It is possible. Odds might be stacked against, but change does happen, and it happens in each and every individual, uniquely.
shortstop
@cokane: Your kid does this all the time, I take it?
Redshirt
@cokane: It was Twitter, not some WoW chatroom. There is a difference, yes?
Redshirt
@efgoldman: Even Republican jerkwads can change, even in their mid-30’s! I can’t come up with any specific examples, but I’m sure they’re out there.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@cokane: well, a thoughtful and articulate comment like that is hard to argue with.
Dolly Llama
@TG Chicago: We’re good. Just glad to know I’m not some crazy outlier here. “Niggerkiller?” Just sick. Sorry. Wherever it comes from, rebellion or allegiance, this belongs to “family values” Flake in the final analysis.
Suzanne
While I get your point about the kid doing dumb things, this shows the parenting FAILS going on in the Flake house.
There’s a lot of that in Mesa.
? Martin
@cokane:
Um, I have a teenage boy who plays video games. I know many of his friends that play video games. Sometimes I even sneak in there and play as well.
None of them do this. They don’t even drop ‘fag’ or ‘gay’ in chat. Stop making excuses for your kid, okay?
Redshirt
Halp! I iz in moderation!
For reasons I do not know. Speaking of which, who controls the “Filter”? John Cole and team, or some anonymous cabal of FYWP Elders?
Corner Stone
@? Martin:
None of the teenage boys you are carefully monitoring make inappropriate comments?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Redshirt: Speaking of which, who controls the “Filter”?
Barack Obama, naive libtard. Joe Biden on weekends and holidays.
Amir Khalid
@Redshirt:
FYWP itself controls the mod filter. It is sentient. Were you really unaware of this?
dance around in your bones
Paul McCartney is murdering Beatles songs on the Colbert show. Gah.
Shortstop
@Redshirt: All information will be shared on a need-to-know basis, brother.
Sly
The kid is obviously a Dudebro in training, and while I’m all in favor of cutting teenagers slack for being assholes, I think critiques of Dudebro culture are always worthwhile and necessary.
? Martin
@Corner Stone:
Not monitoring them. Their old chat is still there for me to see when I drop in. My son sits in the middle of the living room playing on his laptop – I can look over his shoulder at his screen whenever I want. His friends don’t know I’m there, they aren’t dropping any slurs. They certainly don’t have offensive screen names.
Shortstop
@Sly: I loved this: “In New York, he’s a finance douche. In Orange County, he drives a ridiculous car. In North Carolina, he’s cheering for Duke.”
Suzanne
I went all through elementary, junior high, and high school with a few of Jeff Flake’s nieces and nephews. (And some of the Tanners, Pearces, Romneys, Stapleys, Whitings, and the other big LDS families.) Let’s just say that this behavior is unsurprising in every way and very much a product of that culture.
Corner Stone
@? Martin:
But you’re not monitoring them. Ok, got it boss!
Ajay
John,
I completely disagree. This is offensive behavior and not necessarily driven all by harmones. Harmones bring up to surface what you are. This is how he is brought up in that family. I cant see how teenagers calling themselves n1ggerkiller or whatever is normal. Fuck No. The fact that someone thinks of color as a teenager (especially in this day and age) shows something wrong or iow, he is a core/good republican. Given that and that his father is just another offensive ass, son is going to be worse than him as his role model father has succeeded with same character traits. There is nothing wrong if this is around his neck for his life. In his circle, this is likely a compliment.
Chris
@Corner Stone:
I was a teenager less than ten years ago. “Inappropriate” was using a four letter word or commenting on the size of a girl’s rack. A racial slur, we’d have considered “racist.” Maybe it was just us.
Ronnie Pudding
Flake and his boys in the WaPo.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/06/02/1-senator-2-sons-4-days-1-deserted-island-jeff-flake-escapes-again-to-the-south-pacific/
cokane
@? Martin: you monitor your high school age son’s online activity? that’s kind of creepy honestly
rda909
Wow. Just wow. So the teenage son of a U.S. Senator is choosing a name that suggests he would kill, literally kill my young children, and you’re suggesting I just turn a blind eye to that because this racist shitstain is in high school, and boys will be boys as they threaten to kill dark-skinned people, repeatedly!?! And please point me to any remotely comparable to “n1ggerkiller” instance from Chelsea Clinton or the Obama girls Only a not-blah person could nonchalantly dismiss the violent nature of the Flake kid’s threats to my family.
Incredible. Two of my kids are teenagers now and they couldn’t even formulate those thoughts in their heads, let alone spend hours online spreading the hate. Jeff Flake is a failure as a senator, human being, and as a father. He needs to resign immediately. As a parent myself, I can’t even comprehend how badly you have to do as a father to raise a child who is that hate-filled and bigoted. This isn’t simple teenage boy moronic behavior. Far from it, and the idiot-spawn is able to communicate like that because he was never taught in his home that it is unacceptable. This is a dad that takes his sons on remote island retreats (on taxpayer dime of course!) and has a big influence over his sons. As a society, we need to stop accepting and making excuses for these ignorant and violent pricks, and certainly keep them from making our laws.
? Martin
@Corner Stone:
Yeah, because “Hey dad, come look at this!” is totally me monitoring him. And I’m sorry that they invite me in to play now and then. Didn’t realize 45 was too old to game.
SatanicPanic
I grew up around lots of rednecks, in a town with maybe 2 black people in it. Even there, you could be absolutely sure that only the kids that were raised by assholes would have a screen name n1ggerkiller. The rest of us knew better. I’m with everyone here saying that’s over the line, and evidence that his dad is probably a racist. I mean, beyond the obvious evidence that his dad is a Republican Senator.
Redshirt
@Amir Khalid:
I was, until you just dropped the Truth on me. Now I know, and I shall spread the word: FYWP is ALIVE!
Shortstop
@cokane: I take it back. You don’t have a teenage son who posts shit like that online. You are a teenaged boy who posts shit like that online.
Redshirt
@Shortstop: I need to know.
EDIT: Oh wait, I just learnt. KTB
rda909
@MikeBoyScout: “This is not an easy call.” Uh, hell yeah it is! The junior Jeff Flake said he would kill “n1ggers” if given the chance. That’s not “an easy call” for you?!? Wow.
LAC
@cokane: that was your excuse, was it?
Amir Khalid
@Ajay:
Your link goes to an open thread that makes no mention of the case you refer to.
Shortstop
@Redshirt: I just hope you can sleep tonight. Lord knows we tried to preserve your innocence a little longer.
Redshirt
@Shortstop: I’m planning on NOT sleeping tonight anyways, so it’s all good.
cokane
@Shortstop: no you sanctimonious prick, i played online games growing up, and i’ve also read my fair share of youtube comments. i’ve seen people post offensive shit. I think the comments are immature, tiresome, and reveal an unimaginative sense of humor, but i don’t absurdly pretend they prove a KKK mindset.
Go visit a website like encyclopedia dramatica or the darker subreddits, just be sure to bring ur smelling salts sir. a big chunk of young-male internet culture is just about offending ppl intentionally.
edit: btw im pretty sure the reason cole gets it, and isn’t making character judgements is because he also has played online video games and seen the crazy amount of offensive stuff said.
rda909
@The Other Bob: Totally understandable. So then did you suggest you would kill a n1gger? Over and over again? And then of course add in all the other slurs of the other “others?” What you describe from your own past is not comparable to Jeff Flake’s racist and violent, danger to society child did.
rda909
@SatanicPanic: Exactly.
Suzanne
I will just note that Tanner Flake attends Mountain View High School, which is the rival school of my alma mater.
Muahahahaha.
gwangung
Son embarrasses father and family in public. Family SHOULD have to live with the consequences of this. It happens with normal people; why should a US Senator and his family get a pass?
Now, I’m not going to dwell on it…but I’m certainly not going to ignore it either. If it happened with anybody else, I’d keep a skeptical eye on the family. Just seems right to do it with Flake.
gwangung
@cokane: Why is this crap acceptable? Why are you excusing it?
I think you’re projecting with the “prick” comment.
? Martin
@cokane:
But you DO pretend that they apply to every young male. That it might not just be young males from certain communities in the US but not other communities.
Look, not every community has this problem. Here’s a middle school in Indiana:
I live in a city of 200,000 people. That doesn’t happen here. You can’t chalk up what you see at the school noted above and assume it applies everywhere. The same goes for what you see online. We don’t really know how broad the community is that writes those comments, and how many young males avoid those subreddits and other sites and rejects that stuff. And you can’t take inner city violence and apply it to all young males, or all young black or latino males, and so on.
And if you have some communities where this behavior doesn’t occur, then there’s no reason why other communities can’t achieve the same thing. They don’t because they don’t want to, but to assume that all 15 year old boys are genetically predisposed to spew racist comments is bullshit.
SatanicPanic
@gwangung: Yes, thanks. Part of being a parent is being mortified by things your children do. I’ve had my moments and I don’t get paid like a senator to deal with them.
Suzanne
I can assure you that the community in which Tanner Flake lives and attends school does not actively and soundly discourage this behavior.
Morbo
@? Martin: Reddit will fight to the death for their right to call someone a “faggot” and not be criticized for it, so I don’t know where you’re coming from there.
rda909
@Suzanne: And neither does this violent, danger-to-society’s mother and father. Jeff Flake needs to resign immediately to deal with his failure as a father. A man who would raise such a violent and bigoted child should NOT be writing our nation’s laws.
John O
The boy is at least some part his parents’ deal. Yes, teenagers are complete morons, but it was long before my teen years that I knew the racist stuff was OB.
And I grew up in racist rural Republican America.
Morbo
Yeah, sorry, I’m totally fine with this. Also, he’s a Senator’s son, so this is likely to be a hummingbird and not an albatross.
rda909
Here’s Jeff Flake’s violent child imagining gunning down my children, since he’s a “n1ggerkiller”
http://willseberger.photoshelter.com/image/I0000fdcnV7rBRFo
But apparently I’m supposed to just chalk that up to “boys will be boys.” The Angel Moroni must be proud of his disciples, The Flakes:
http://www.mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm
(If I had any photoshop skills I’d add a “n1ggerkiller” caption to that photo)
John O
@Morbo:
Certainly speaks to his character, don’t it?
? Martin
@Morbo:
I’m not disputing that. But the existence of Reddit and even the overall popularity of Reddit doesn’t infer that every community of teenage boys embraces that behavior. Reddit has the free speech purity thing going on, but it’s also a popular organizing site. And I post a fair bit in Reddit because my students organize there, and so it’s a place where I can answer some questions. But I don’t see that behavior in the subreddits I visit. I don’t see that behavior out of my son and his friends. I go to the football games (he’s in marching band) and I don’t see that behavior out of the kids in the bleachers or hanging out in the parking lot. Sure, there’s the usual swearing for effect and horseplay and flirting and things like that, but hateful comments are remarkably rare.
I stand fully by my comment at 61: it goes with the community. Build a community where this stuff is unacceptable and even the teenage boys will take it as unacceptable. If the teenage boys think it’s acceptable, then guess what – the community probably agrees. Now, that doesn’t mean any given set of parents are necessarily to blame, but collectively they must be. Someone (like cokane above) is at the very least excusing this behavior, and others are actively participating in it. This is a learned behavior. Where the fuck does everyone think it was learned from?
Jamey
@Forum Transmitted Disease: And the GOP? Aren’t they the ones always going on about what kind of world are we going to leave to our kids?
Yeah, focus on the dad. But let’s not overlook the possibility that the kid learned to be a toxic shitstain in the dad’s home.
Yatsuno
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
His Lord and Tunchness of course.
scav
But then, it is hard to forget this involves a member of the party that — in different states, admittedly — wanted to tie a family’s welfare benefits to children’s attendence or grades at school. Somehow that muddies the waters for me.
Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)
Anyone play online sports games? I played NHL 13 online hockey for a while and it’s amazing how much of this type of shit is out there – gamer tags, players with mics, player character mods.
fuckwit
There’s a weird dynamic going on. I’ve noticed that the generation of 30-somethings are so much more polite, earnest, and community-oriented than I’ve ever seen. I admire them a lot; many of them seem like so much better people than I. Mine is the foul-mouthed, punk-rock generation. Hell, one of the reasons I love this blog is because Cole is so fucking cranky. Then again, we were the generation that cheered on Reagan and Bush and wars and greed. So I dunno if cranky works out so well in the long run.
But what I’m noticing is that the new generation of teens and 20-somethings have a lot more in common with my generation than with the one intervening. There’s a contingent among them (ahem! /b/, reddit) which is loud, crude, and gives zero shits. It’s like they go out of their way to be shocking, on purpose.
Which is strangely famiiar. I remember the first time I brought home “Fresh Fruits for Rotting Vegetables” and played it as loud as humanly possible. In some ways, my middle finger has remained locked in its fully upright position ever since.
Pendulums, they have a way of swinging. One generation rebels against all the self-centeredness and shallowness and violence, and becomes serious and earnest and kind. The next generation rebels against all that tree-hugging woo-woo hippie crap, and becomes violent and shallow and self-centered. And then next one rebels against that…. gawd.
Horrible generalizations, I know, but age cohorts do have personalities, I think.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@? Martin: I think the cokane has gone to that guy’s brain.
Ruckus
@Ivan Ivanovich Renko:
This.
You have to know your enemy to protect your self from them.
@Gian:
these things are the natural results of their world-views.
This is why I disagree with John. Shit has consequences. Or at least it should.
mclaren
Ganging up on a teenage kid, whether it’s a boy or girl, is pretty low. Teenagers say and do stupid hateful things.
C’mon, let’s face it — all adolescents are monsters. And teenage girls make teenage boys seem positively nice ‘n cuddly. Girls have been driven to suicide by the viciousness of other teenage girls.
What I think Cole is saying here is, jeebus, cut these teenagers some goddamn slack. They’re, like, 14. How much self-control and common sense does anyone have at age 14?
Chris
@fuckwit:
The South Park generation?
mclaren
@? Martin:
Bull-fucking-shit. It’s happening constantly. You’re just denying that it happens. Typical adult asshole behavior.
Bullying is endemic in American schools, everywhere, in every community, large and small.
Either you’re lying outright or you’re stuck so deep in a state of denial you need your own zip code.
rda909
@Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS): Never played “sports” online, but as a dark skinned person, I’m so AMAZED to hear “how much of this type of shit is out there.” Yes, if only I’d play games online (hockey, no less!) would I then understand how much racism is out there.
Hey, maybe Barack Obama should play some games online too, then he’d finally understand that a U.S. senator’s son would kill him, given the chance. Of course, none of this applies to any “progressive” who incessantly criticizes and never acknowledges any of the incredible progress made by the most liberal president in our lifetimes, President Obama, since they think Martin Luther King Jr. was good at speechmaking so they can’t possibly be racist.
Just curious…Does ABL still post here?
NotMax
@rda909<./a.
Photoshop not necessary for something as elementary as adding text.
Perfectly serviceable, free, user-friendly viewer with small, basic raft of image editing do-hickeys is Irfanview.
Quaker in a Basement
Breaking news! Teenage dumbass writes dumbass things on the Internet!
Suzanne
@mclaren: Uh, no, some teenagers are actually nice people who do volunteer work, go to school, maybe have jobs, etc. I managed to graduate from high school without calling anyone a “ni33er”. It CAN be done.
There are lapses of judgment, there is teenage stupidity, and then….reeeeally far down that continuum, there is tweeting horrible racial slurs and threats for months.
NotMax
Correcting #155 (oy vey, am I mortified):
@rda909
Photoshop not necessary for something as elementary as adding text.
Perfectly serviceable, free, user-friendly viewer with small, basic raft of image editing do-hickeys is Irfanview.
Laertes
Yeah, I’m with the mob. “N1ggerkiller” goes way beyond ordinary teenage douchebaggery. When I was growing up in my lily-white suburb there were certain kids who liked to use the n-word, and I got to know the parents eventually. That kind of shit ALWAYS comes from the parents, or at the very least meets with their approval. (A few of the offending dads were cops in the neighboring not-nearly-so-lily-white city. I don’t even want to think about the shit they must have got up to under the color of law.)
When a kid uses that word, it directly implicates his dad. There’s no bullshit here. They SHOULD be making a stink about it.
Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)
@rda909: Hey, step off. I was commenting on the general discussion about teenagers and online racism, and that’s one area where I observed it before, so it doesn’t surprise me that this racist incident came up in that context. Doesn’t mean I’m not appalled by it. It’s just an observation, so fuck off with your sarcasm.
And you might notice there’s a podcast up most every day by Elon James White, right there on the front page.
nineone
@Dolly Llama:
Are you kidding? Dude just established his cred big-time. Just submitted his resume for a wingnut welfare sinecure that should last him a lifetime. The way things are going these days, he’ll be the fresh new face of the CSA Media Revival Circuit in no time. And I would expect nothing less from the likes of the Flake clan. After all, as a conservative republican are they not our Betters? Of course they are.
No hoodies or flashing gang signs for this lad. He’s goin’ places. What a bright future he has.
cmm
Oddly enough, of the three slurs enumerated, the one that bothers me the most is the Jewish one. The other two, sad as it is, are in pretty uwidespread usage, and the kid could have picked them up anywhere. But the stereotype of Jews as cheaap and/or thieves is pretty outdated and not in such common usage these days. That is the sort of thing that is more likely to have come to him by way of parents or older relatives.
I have mixed feelings on the whole kids out of bounds things. There is a difference between pointing out public bad behavior that the kid puts out there himself, and criticizing the physical appearance of pols’ kids. And besides, if tht sort of thing really is a-OK among the denizens of young Mr Flake’s immediate area, it is good for him to find out now tht much of the larger world finds it reprehensible so that we can avoid being treated to stories later on of Tanner Flake physicaally assaulting a minority person.
I
Laertes
@mclaren: @mclaren:
You’re looking at the wrong guy. The problem here isn’t that the kid is an idiot. The problem here is that his dad thought it was okay.
I remember when I learned that word. I didn’t know exactly what it meant, but from context I could tell it was an insult and that’s how I used it, probably for a day or so. Then I used it in front of my dad. I’ll never forget that look on his face, so angry and so disappointed. He gave me the telling-off of my young life and I’ve never felt so ashamed.
That’s how it works when your dad is a basically decent human being.
This kid’s using that kind of language for months, and broadcasting it on twitter? That means his dad is okay with it. Damn right that’s a story.
cokane
so i went on to test this theory. i logged on to something as innocent as yahoo chess. i played two games against the same guy. i was called a “faggit” and a “pussy” because i won the second game.
do i think this is cool behavior? hell no. the guy is an annoying jerk and im embarrassed i lost the first game against him. but i also don’t pretend to construct a whole bigoted ideology of who he was.
rda909
@mclaren: “all adolescents are monsters.” I have a teenage boy and girl. They are the nicest, most respectful people I know, and so are their friends, and I trust all of them implicitly with my younger children who are still in elementary school. This whole notion that teenagers are automatically going to say stupid and mean things is a fallacy. There’s much more of that here on this web site, with supposed adults, than at any gatherings of teenagers I’ve seen my kids at, so I disagree completely with your argument.
Then of course, Jeff Flake, a United States Senator’s son, takes it to a whole other level of adding violence to the equation. Beyond the “n1ggerkiller” username, he also has many facebook posts under his name expressing similar sentiments of violence toward dark skinned people and various other “others.” You want to cut this violent teenaged son of a U.S. Senator “some slack” for his hate speech. I will not do that. Jeff Flake is currently failing as a father, and should not be writing our laws until he can make sure his own son isn’t a menace to society first.
Laertes
Shorter version: I’ve seen it a hundred times. Racist kids have racist parents. Always.
The prophet Nostradumbass
I find it somewhat amusing that the most humorless, obnoxious “lefter than thou” commenter on this blog is copping a “boys will be boys” stance on this.
SatanicPanic
@Laertes:
Exact same thing happened to me when I was in elementary school. I picked it up from the neighbor’s kids. I didn’t have to be told twice that was a word I shouldn’t use. It’s accepted in certain families. We’re not picking on this kid, we’re picking on his parents.
JordanRules
Mercy! John this is some bullshit and I hope you reflect on it some more.
The indifference some have to this is scary as shit, indeed just as scary as the son’s handle.
Some people have to live in a world where we have to take this seriously.
Wretched of the Earth…
eemom
@mclaren:
Well, here’s the thing, psychotwat. It’s so very nice of you, being the judge of all good and evil as everybody knows you are, to decide to cut anyone any slack — but your particular pronouncement here has got to be due to either (1) you are, in fact, 14 years old yourself, or (2) you’ve never been in the company of an actual 14 year old and have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about.
My son is 14, and he’s a full service teenager “prone” to all the stuff Cole mentions….but a racist is something he would NEVER be, at any age, hormones or not.
How very interesting that this, of all things, is what you are inclined to “cut slack” over.
Gian
@rda909:
“most liberal in our lifetime” does need a qualifier or three. the Japanese guy who just passed away at something like 116 years old is a sample.
and “liberal” can fit on different charts. was Ike “liberal” when he nationalized the guard to essentially switch sides and open the school?
was FDR an arch conservative because he let Jim Crow continue and interred people like Lt. Sulu?
In my lifetimehe’s more “liberal” then Clinton, I think less so than Carter. Were I older and knew when I was younger that LBJ had planned to get out of Viet Nam but Nixon freaking sabotaged it to get elected… hell I’d think medicare plus the civil rights act….
I will say this, when I was a lil (and I mean lil) tyke, at the age of four or five and played with the similar aged AA kids the next house over, and got called an N-lover by other kids my age in freaking kindergarten – I remembered it. and when I got older, I figured out those kids learned it from their parents.,
This kid was taught to hate. He learned it, and it reflects on dear old dad. (and mom)
If you don’t want your kid to grow up thinking it’s a great idea to kill people based on race, you can teach that.
Look, if the kid freaking got drunk and passed out with his pants down own the sidewalk, I could say “dumb kid thing” and move on., as it is, the events tell me how this kid was raised, moreso than anything else.
the 4-5 year old who taunted me weren’t born to hate like that, they were raised that way.
cokane
@? Martin: yeah if you think only young white men say racist things, you need to get out more. i went to inner city public schools growing up, everybody gave it as good as they got it, regardless of skin color.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@eemom:
Isn’t it, though?
rda909
@Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS): I can see how that came off as coming at you personally, and I didn’t mean for it to seem that way.
Regarding JE White though, I read those for a while, but with the Newsmax headlines appearing here (as if there is no other option for Internet ads!), and some post he did spouting the online progressive poutrage-of-the-day against President Obama, I rarely stop by here any more. J.E. White doesn’t speak for me and I’m not all that interested in his views after reading that article I referenced.
Aimai
There really is no special teenage male exemption for being a racist, bigoted, asshole. There sure as fck isn’t any exception made for a raped 13 year old girl. No exception made for a young black kid buying skittles and iced tea. I’ve got teenaged daughters. They have been raised to be better people than me. They are less racist, less homophobic, more aware and I already was pretty much on the side of the angels having grown up in the civil rights era. Jeff flakes sin is fair game and flake knows it. This is not some accident like getting his girlfriend pregnant or even drunk driving. His sin is clearly emulating the values if his family. Values that they keep clannishly hidden from outsiders because they know they don’t play we’ll on national tv.
Yatsuno
@The prophet Nostradumbass: I’M GOBSMACKED!!!
Oh wait, no I’m not.
Andrew
This story reads to me like “Teenager has XBOX Live account.”
Which is a problem endemic in gaming culture, but not really news about Sen. Flake. Or maybe I’ve been reading too much Anita Sarkeesian lately.
rda909
@Gian: “Most liberal” most certainly does not “need a qualifier or three.” Across the board on issue after issue, President Obama has ENACTED more liberal policy in totality than any president since FDR, and a good case could be made even more than FDR. This is not a debatable point.
Yes, I know it sounds surprising at Internet sites that are about 99% white, and consume large amounts of the major media outlets and all their propaganda, incessantly following and reacting to their manufactured poutrages against America’s first black president, but it’s just a basic fact. The last couple of weeks have been such a clear example of this, where post after post goes on and on about these non-stories, yet there’s nothing – NOTHING – about the massive accomplishments over the past couple weeks that any actual liberal should be ecstatic about. This is a simple truth.
rda909
@NotMax: To show how technically dumb I am, I don’t understand a thing about that site. It’s amazing I’m able to leave a comment here and even quote other comments and leave links (my better half showed me how to do those!)
mai naem
The kind of weird/funny part of this is that Flake’s other son came out of the closet a couple of months ago and Flake said that was not going to change his opinion on gay marriage. For being a whackjob wingnut state we sure seem to have produced a lot of gay pols or pols’ family being gay.
Desert Rat
I call bullshit on this one. First of all, Jeff Flake is an asshole. I’ve lived in Arizona as long as he has, and he’s always been an asshole. He’s an arch-conservative who talks like a moderate. Sound like a Republican Senator from Arizona we’ve been having to deal with for the last 30 years way too much? It should. If we’re not careful, he’s going to be that asshole who replaces John McCain on Press the Meat for 30 years when NBC goes casting about for McCain’s replacement when he retires in 2016.
Children reflect the attitudes of their parents. I have two teenage sons. If they used the language this cretin used, they’d be grounded until their 82nd Birthday. Then I’d get serious about it. The ONLY reason this became an issue for Jeff Flake, or a subject of concern, at all is because somebody noticed it and wrote it up. Period. So don’t tell me this isn’t newsworthy.
A few years ago, another prominent Arizona politician, Ken Bennett, currently our Secretary of State, had a son who raped three adolescent boys with a fucking broom handle. I know this to be the case, as I was in contact with one of them. Bennett arranged to have the venue changed to another county, and the county attorney dropped all but one of the charges, putting the kid on probation.
Sorry, but there’s a pattern with this bullshit here, and it needs to be exposed.
? Martin
@mclaren:
No it’s not. And there’s growing evidence that it’s not. It’s taken a while, and it’s still slow to build, but we’re starting to get concrete measures of bullying rates, and the types of bullying taking place. For communities (like mine) which put anti-bullying as a priority many years ago, it’s clearly working. It’s implemented in all grades. Teachers are held accountable for bullying among classmates. Part of the anti-bullying process is accepting that ‘it’s just what kids do’. It’s not. It’s a learned behavior, and it’s a group behavior. You can break that behavior by intervening in the group, and in K-6 that’s in the classroom. It gets a bit harder as you move to middle and high school, but there you need to intervene strongly in social groups – in sports and other activities. And they’re zero tolerance on that stuff. You’re in sports and you bully, you’re out. In my experience they take it about as seriously as drugs here. But it’s definitely working here.
Now, we’re not a typical community. It’s easier to implement here. Ask anyone who knows where I live and they’ll tell you this is a community of academic overachievers. People will move to an $800,000 house to get their kid in a certain public high school – some of it is really fucking weird. But it also means that the schools are loaded with parents. The PTA is big and active. Every classroom has parent volunteers. Often more than one. So bullying doesn’t stay among the kids – it moves up to the parents really quickly and that helps to end it, because we generally have very tolerant parents. There’s no majority group here. Whites aren’t the majority. Christians are close, but it’s not a unified group, and they don’t wield majority social power. Even liberal/conservative is pretty split, but leans liberal. We know the teachers very well. A lot of them have kids in the schools here, so they’re also parents.
And so there’s no reason for the school to tolerate any of this stuff. Everyone’s goal here is to send their kid to Stanford, and the kids genuinely have college as their goal (high percentage of advanced degrees here). Nobody is going to jeopardize that with tribalist bullshit. Sure, there’s some low-level bullying that happens, but it’s actually gotten knocked down to such a degree that the students themselves are able to keep a lot of it in check. A new student moved into the district when my son was in middle school and pretty much just picked up bullying where he left off in his old school calling kids ‘fag’ on the playground and all of that, and the students themselves pretty much shut him down. He didn’t get anyone to support him, and he got ostracized for a while until he came around.
And it’s hard for us to miss much. We’ve been on both kids’ PTAs since they started school. We’re boosters. Ms Martin volunteers in the classrooms and is a sub for the school administrators (which means she’s the first line on the bullying on days she works). I help out with props and improvement projects at the schools. We run the fundraisers. We know the teacher and coaches and other parents really well. We know the district people as well. And I help the students with their college applications and run some related activities. We know every student at my daughters elementary school. And we’ll know everyone at her middle school as we did with my son’s. We know about 1/3 of the high schoolers. If there’s a bullying problem, it’s the best kept secret in the city.
And while it’s clearly not a typical educational space, it proves that bullying isn’t a problem everywhere. And this isn’t the only place that’s seeing this. I can’t speak for other parts of the country, but there are many other parts of California seeing similar results. Not everywhere. A few cities over the bullying is pretty bad, but they have a different community there. It’s more conservative/libertarian. They’re still struggling with latinos displacing whites, which seems to be the main point of friction. My city never had that. We pretty much sprung up out of nowhere and everyone is a transplant. There are sub-communities – Chinese, Korean, Persian, Jewish, a few others, but there’s little friction between them, and there’s a strong shared community for keeping the city a positive place to live. It’s actually part of what people find to be creepy about the place, described by someone here as ‘Stepfordian’ the other day. Not an unfair description. But it has it’s upsides.
So, no. I don’t have my head in the sand. And no, I’m not lying. I’m not suggesting we’re typical either. But I am suggesting that if we put away the attitude that ‘this is unavoidable’ then we might find that it’s avoidable, because we have contained this problem here. And other places have too.
? Martin
@nineone:
Probably already been sent a scholarship and holding a position for him at Heritage.
Gian
@rda909:
zoom goes the point about lifetimes with the reference to the chap who died at age 116.
116 years ago was about when Teddy Roosevelt resigned as asst secy navy and rounded up volunteers for the war with spain.
it’s a long period of time to make statements about “most liberal” and seriously to say that without an eye to the norm for the time is an interesting position. If you are going to say “most liberal” it should be versus something – other than policies in an abstract.
“most liberal” is like “best quarterback” and some living memories have Johnny Unitias as their oldest great, some have Bart Starr, some have Joe Montana, Some Elway, some (err well you should get the point w/o going to Otto G)
so yes, it does need qualifiers. some living people, my parents, for example, remember FDR, some living people remember as far back as Wilson.
some people might think that medicare and voting rights act and the civil rights act are pretty f-n liberal and remember LBJ
so yeah, a qualifier just might make sense
? Martin
@cokane:
That’s swell. Did you say anything to him about it? No? You’re part of the problem by tolerating it. That’s precisely the point I’ve been trying to make. You allowing this to perpetuate by suggesting to the community that it’s okay and so the community treats it like its okay.
If you stop doing that, and enough other people stop dong that, it’ll change.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@? Martin: I think that guy needs to stop using the “cokane”.
rda909
@Gian: Oh boy. Yep, I do understand historical context very well, and my point becomes even stronger when you look at those details. But…don’t have the time to unpack that right now, so as Aretha said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnwDkT0lUWI
Aimai
This exact same discussion took place around the “debate” between a female comedian and a male comedian about rape jokes. Following their discussion she received death and rape threats in twitter from anonymous and named males, and hostile rape joke threats from male comedians she knew personally. The guy she debated , in a post debate blog post, insists that these rape and death threats , somehow because they happen on twitter or the Internet, are not real reflections of the true nature/intentions of the men issuing them. To me this sounds like conkades argument. Since young men say stupid, hateful, threatening shit all the time online it’s no big deal. But it is a big deal to the classes of people whose names are made into insults (gays, Jews, women, blacks) and who are routinely threatened with rape and murder. I wouldn’t use that kind of eliminationist rhetoric against anyone. Who cares why the story got national attention? Flake should be thanking the concerned citizens who brought his son’s hooliganism to his attention.
? Martin
@cokane:
Where did I ever suggest that? I went to public school in NYC in the 70s and 80s, so don’t give shit about what inner city public schools are like. I got stabbed in the 7th grade and beat two kids into unconsciousness with a pipe wrench after they tried to push me into traffic. I know about giving as good as getting.
But you can’t excerpt those conditions to Iowa or Newport Beach. My wailing on two bullies with a piece of iron can’t be taken as representative of 15 year olds everywhere. It was a product of life in my community – and part of that was shaped by racial tensions and religious tensions and poverty and a host of other variables. Pick me up and put me in a different community, and you get different behavior. I’m the same person, same personality, same genetics, but you get a different result. And that’s my point. Change the community and the teenage boy behavior will change. There are no 15 year olds getting sent to the hospital from fights here. There are no gay kids being bullied into suicide here.
Race isn’t the issue. Stereotyping is the issue. And you can’t stereotype every teenage boy or every community based on what you’ve seen. And that’s what you’re doing.
Shalimar
The kid is a Mormon and a Republican, hating on all the same groups of people God hates. Why do liberals always have to be so politically correct?
Anne Laurie
Chroist Jaysus, people — save a little energy for future battles. I agree that Actions have consequences, but the actionof using an obscene & inexcusable screen name is not the same as roofying & raping someone, or torturing dogs, or even shoving the geek kids into the lockers. The little Flake deserves to be called to account, by his peers & his neighbors if not his (possibly besotted) parents. But going into a screaming ragegasm about how this means Flake Junior is gonna set up to murder your little childers, on pay-per-view, just makes “our tribe” look like Malkin’s flying monkeys.
He’s a politician’s kid, which he did not chose to be. Probably his parents didn’t rear him as nicely as you’ve all raised your offspring, and now he’s acting out, as teenagers are wont to do. Have a little good progressive pity on a thoughtless adolescent from an emotionally stunted and inbred community, and restrict your outrage to admonishing him to learn from this experience and find out how us Nice People act.
Do none of you remember being teenagers? Contempt is a lot more effective than outrage, when you really want to affect their behavior. Treat him like the toddler who tried out his new “bathroom word” during Sunday school, not like a vile gangster who’s put a blogful of grown-ups into screaming fits — unless the chance to have a good group screaming fit is actually more important than having the little punk (& any other eavesdropping little punks) actually change his wicked ways.
Villago Delenda Est
@cokane:
This is truly a stupid comment. It is burning stupid.
eemom
@Villago Delenda Est:
Good timing, as the one directly above yours is burning stupider x 10.
A Humble Lurker
@Anne Laurie:
That’s a low bar there.
Tokyokie
@rda909: This.
@Laertes: And this.
Hang this around Jeff Flake’s neck, and let him drown in the sewer of his family’s innate bigotry.
Kerr Lockhart
I think they need to hammer the kid harder. When I grew up, we didn’t have fewer bigots and a**holes, we had more. But the culture told them to shut up, keep their heads down and least pretend to be ashamed of the stupid crap in their heads. Now our culture rewards them, gives them radio talk shows and elects them to public office.
I hope Flake Jr. learns to keep his ignorant mouth shut for the rest of his life, be ashamed of himself and his father and understand that nobody wants to hear anything from any of them. “Oh,” you say, “people can change.” Maybe if he leaves home. Maybe if he spends time among people who are different, perhaps even become dependent on them. But I don’t see that likely with Daddy Moron in charge. Don’t think this kid can ever overcome nurture.
So let him know that he is stupid, that he has no ideas worth expressing and whatever impulses he has, he should do the opposite. Let him live in shame. Then he’ll have learned a valuable lesson.
Keith G
@Anne Laurie:
Agree.
This is not a national issue/story and it goes further down a path of publicizing (even politicizing) politicians kids that will have no good end for anyone. Sorry, but if we start nationalizing this crap, the other side will win. They have the infrastructure in place. The teenager is acting like an uber twat. The repercussions should be local.
Kay
I don’t think this is normal language for boys that age. My impression is it’s not so much that they’re wildly tolerant or open-minded, but that they admire people who are calmer than this, cooler, less unhinged. They would sneer at him for losing his shit publicly.
They’re all dumb as rocks about the internet, though. They record EVERYTHING, photos, nice, neat time stamped records of their activities, long lists of contacts. Here’s a tip. If you’re planning on doing something illegal, try not to leave an elaborate record that includes all of your friends.
Ben Cisco
Cole thinks this is no biggie, but when that little motherfucker is at the head of the GOP ticket in 2036…
Joel
Considering his dad, the kid was doomed to being an asshole from birth.
rda909
@Anne Laurie: Oh, whitesplaining. Cool to see it in such a pure form. It seems no amount of explanation of what that means will ever get through to some people. Seriously, does ABL contribute here any more? I actually do not know the answer to that.
Since President Obama was elected – the first time – it’s been disappointing to me to realize that so many people I thought were in my “tribe,” are not at all. As a proud O-bot, it’s clear to me now that I’m not in your tribe nor am I in the tribe of 95% of the “liberal” blog world (which happens to be about 98% white people, naturally), who can instantly hero worship some unknown kid simply because Glenn Greenwald said they should, and turn it into constant ranting about the evils of Obummer in the same breath. My tribe actually kept McCain and Palin, then the Rmoney disgrace out of the White House, and believes President Obama is one of the best presidents ever.
Jeff Flake is raising a bigot, who has violent tendencies already at such a young age. Amazing to me how you and others can dismiss the extreme nature of what he’s done. It’s not a simple case of “boys will be boys” as has been discussed so much above. Here’s a case where a senator resigning “to spend more time with his family” should be the actual reason he should resign, and if Flake Sr. is one of the sources for this kid’s violent and bigoted behavior, then Jeff Flake should not be making our laws. But go ahead then…keep making excuses for the Flakes and saying people in my tribe are the problem, since we’re so oversensitive about these issues.
rikyrah
he learned at his Daddy’s knee
winstongator
@reflectionephemeral:
I agree. There are ‘teenagers will be teenagers’ and there are over the line activities. My dad tolerated a lot, but using that handle on a video game would have warranted an ass-whipping. You also don’t just start using the n-word once you become a teen. Most kids will use it once when they are young, not really understanding, and the parents should educate them on the impact and significance of the word (unless you believe that it has no impact except for hyper-sensitives). Continued use means that it was never corrected by the parents.
Ruckus
@Keith G:
And yet the last president was a legacy that maybe a few more people would have liked to see what he was like as a younger idiot. This is a senators son. This is how he was raised? To think this crap is OK? Do you think he may just follow in his fathers footsteps and become a politician? Or a Dr? Or a KKK leader? He has privilege and is abusing it. Do you think this will get better as he gets older?
Maybe we shouldn’t be discussing this as a senators son but just as a screwed up human. It still deserves discussion in this day and age. We don’t get to be a better society by sticking our fingers in our ears and shouting LALALALALALALAL.
Ruckus
@rda909:
I do like that many have related that they knew a kid like this as a teen and as an adult. And the adult is as big an asshole as the teen was.
We want fewer assholes we have to at the very least recognize them when we see them, no matter their age. How do we fix it? We don’t, it is a problem that can only be fixed by the person with the problem. But saying that kids will be kids is bullshit. Kids will be adults and carry with them the baggage of their upbringing unless they see that upbringing as having issues and have a change of heart. We don’t change behavior, we encourage it’s change and reward in some way that the change was successful.
Nick
As someone who was a teenager as recently as three years ago, I’ve got to say I have no sympathy at all for the kid. He’s old enough to know better. This can follow him and his father around for the rest of their lives, I don’t give a fuck.
Ruckus
@rda909:
You do just fine.
Keep talking, it’s the only way to make a difference.
And is why this is actually a very important subject we are discussing. The only way to change the dynamic is to discuss it, to shine light on it, to show how bad the problem is. This is a white, privileged senators son. And at the very least he writes like a total bigot. And I don’t think this is the very least, this is real.
Matt McIrvin
I grew up in Virginia in the 1980s, not a particularly enlightened place, and I said and did some stuff that makes me wince now. But even then I knew better than to go around hurling racial insults at people.
I think I called somebody a “faggot” once. He was a bully in a gang of same who had gotten into pulling down my gym shorts. I figured maybe using homophobia against them would strike a nerve, which of course it didn’t, and when I got to know some out gay people not long after (and, much later, realized that I already had a lot of gay friends I was too clueless to recognize), I was ashamed of having done that.
Michael Brown
@mclaren:
I am sorry…but I call bullshit. I was once a teenaged boy once….with all the mood swings and selfish behavior that went with it…..and I would have found the promotion of genocide as reprehensible as I do now at 38 years old.
I am going to make the assumption that you are a member of an ethnic group who has not experienced a recent at of genocide or ethnic cleansing….You see I happen to be of African decent…a member of a group of people who have been seen as little more than livestock who can talk, challenging game for members of the majority “racial” group whenever the felt like killing someone, and generally not worthy of the designation of “human being” for the past 600 years of the history of this continent.
So in closing…having someone calling themselves a killer of your kind may not bother you..but it sends chills up my spine as people who are not white in this country know all to well that there are people out there who are just looking for an excuse to wipe out as many of us as they can…some of which who are the very people who are supposed to govern, protect and serve us.
Laertes
@Anne Laurie:
You Aren’t Listening. At all. You waded into a thread in which everyone is piling on Flake SENIOR, and wrote three snotty paragraphs defending Flake JUNIOR.
How about you try reading the comments you’re responding to. Is that too fucking much to ask?
C.S.Strowbridge
I used to be a teenage boy and I would never do something like that. It’s not that I was born middle-age, although that is something my grandfather used to say about me. I wasn’t raised in a place where casual racism was normal, but I bet things are different in the Flake household.
aretino
Not buying that the Flake’s kid has been hard done by. He’s getting off easy with just a little attention from buzzfeed. Can you imagine the collective media and public freakout if Malia had a whiteykiller profile for a first-person shooter online game, and tweeted snaps of that? Or if she she threatened to beat up fundie God-botherers? Jaysus, we had a week-long journalistic kvetch about her braids at one point.
rikyrah
the son is a reflection of the parent.
you think the son didn’t learn all of this at home?
The Other Bob
@rda909:
FSM, I sure hope so.
TG Chicago
@Desert Rat:
This suddenly makes me wish I was a fly on the wall when Flake confronted his son.
I have a funny feeling there was a lot more “you have to be careful about what you say online” than there was “this language is unacceptable”.
ruemara
Wow. reading through these and man, privilege is a HELL of a drug.
nineone
@Anne Laurie:
Yep, sure do. And had I done something like this my parents would have whooped my ass like I had done something wrong. Being a bright kid raised by attentive parents who clearly established a sense of propriety in me, it would never have occurred to me to address my problems in the manner exhibited by Flake younger. And the other parents in the community would not have stood for it either.
So I agree that
but given who his Father is, and who he hangs with, I’m not holding out too much hope for that.
nineone
@ruemara:
Absolutely Goddamn Right.Quite acutely depicted in light of events these last few weeks.
sharl
@ruemara:
Yes indeed, as near as I can tell, it’s the most powerful drug in existence!
moderateindy
@Narcissus:
Must disagree. I have 4 brothers, our parents were not bigots, and growing up I never heard any kind of racist statements from them. Yet 2, of the five, brothers are pretty racist. Not white power stuff, but full on bigots. Both of their wives are racists, so perhaps that helped reinforce the bad stuff, but it certainly can’t be put on thier upbringing.
Laertes
@moderateindy:
That’s interesting. I’ve never seen that. When did the bigotry first begin to present? Any idea where the instruction in bigotry came from?
Shortstop
@Laertes: it’s true; it does happen sometimes. You can’t imagine how hard my parents worked to instill principles of equality, respect, and universal human dignity and value in my sister and me. And yet, years after my sister married and moved to a very conservative small town, she began making borderline racist comments once in a while. She did not get that in her childhood home, and enough of her childhood training remains that she never takes it openly over the line — it’s clear that she knows it’s wrong. But she has always had a huge fear of not conforming, and she is reflecting the standards of her chosen community.
Catsy
This. If you’ve ever spent any amount of time playing online FPS games–especially from the Call of Duty franchise–get used to seeing the n-word tossed around freely. I gets used as a generic insult by stupid fuckhead teenagers the same way that “gay/fag” does. It’s pretty disgusting, and it’s one of the reasons I dropped out of playing online shooters–I got sick of getting into an argument with these assholes every other match, or having to constantly drop matches and look around for another that wasn’t populated with at least one of these people.
Tehanu
The kid does need to learn better, and to be shown exactly how contemptible his behavior was — but it’s the father who deserves condemnation here. If he didn’t know his kid was doing this, he’s an idiot who shouldn’t be in any kind of position of responsibility. But I would be willing to bet real money that his stern lecture when this came out fell much farther on the side of, “You need to be more discreet! Didn’t you think about how this would make me look?” than it did on the side of, “I’m deeply ashamed of and disappointed in you.”
stinger
Imagine the media/Repub uproar and real political consequences if, say, Cory Booker’s or Keith Ellison’s son had adopted the handle “whiteykiller”. Boys will be boys? I don’t think so.
Between the racial slur and the (presumably) implied violence, this crosses a line.
Ah, I see that aretino @212 got there first.
Patricia Kayden
So because he’s a teenager, there are no consequences for him tweeting with the handle “Niggerkiller” and making antisemitic/gay slurs? Disagree with JC on this one.
Patricia Kayden
@burnspbesq: No, actually kids who are racists/homophobes/antisemitic are not off limit. This Flake kid is not off limit and I’m glad his misbehavior is being discussed publicly since his behavior was public.
mapaghimagsik
@? Martin: 45 is horrible dps. Learn2play, n00b! ;)
cokane
@? Martin: I’m guessing you think Trayvon Martin’s internet behavior is also relevant to Zimmerman’s self-defense argument correct?
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/23/justice/florida-zimmerman-defense
Since I mean young Flake’s internet behavior is clearly indicative of actual racism, according to you, Martin’s behavior is indicative of a dangerous person as well.
I’m willing to bet that you don’t hold the two to the same standard. Which just indicates how fraudulent your moral outrage is. This goes for every pompous person in this thread, btw.
Patricia Kayden
@Chris: Actually, there are White people who believe racism and slavery are/were okay. Remember the dude at CPAC.
Patricia Kayden
@cokane: And what exactly does Trayvon’s “internet behavior” have to do with him being murdered by Zimmerman? Zimmerman is on trial.
Laertes
@cokane:
The Flake boy is a vile bigot, and given his age and the fact that he lives at home, it demonstrates that his parents are vile bigots.
But if some half-assed cop-wanabe were to strap on a gun, pick a fight with the Flake boy, and then shoot him dead when the fight doesn’t turn out the way he’d fantasized it would, then he’d be guilty of murder even though the young man he shot was an asshole.
Which bit of that is confusing to you?
And since I’m here guilty of taking the bait and getting into an incendiary and irrelevant side-topic, I’ll follow up with another question that gets us back on topic:
Do you or do you not understand that when a fourteen-year-old-boy demonstrates a long and public pattern of hateful racist behavior that it indicates that he’s being brought up in a household in which that kind of behavior is acceptable?
mapaghimagsik
@cokane:
Are you saying Flakes internet behavior is a death sentence? Or is this some sort of framing ploy?
g
@cokane:
No one is suggesting that young Mr. Flake should be shot dead.
InternetDragons
“Boys will be boys” does not apply here, and I can’t believe anyone would try to whitewash or sidestep this toxic little bigot’s behavior.
He demonstrates months of consistent and repeated patterns. This was no one-time, experimental use of a slur to see what sort of reaction it’d generate. It’s a reflection of his mindset, and that is a reflection of his family and community…and THAT makes it an absolutely valid public focus for the son of a senator.
I get so frustrated with people who get all poetic about how the younger generation will be our big hope for meaningful change. I don’t want to go into too much detail, but I have been pretty well immersed in the world of online gaming for many years, in settings where I could observe what players said to each other online both in public channels and in “private” channels.
Yes, there is the “boys will be boys” contingent who toss words around to sound tough and who can and should be taught that they need to find different ways to sound cool. In fairness, there’s also a great contingent of kids who don’t tolerate the bigotry, call each other out on it, and report it to the gamemasters or system administrators who can intervene with bans or other disciplinary actions.
However – there’s a significant sub-population of absolutely vile bigots whose constant hate-talk is so extreme that I won’t even try to reproduce it here. It isn’t just an online “shock value” strategy – it represents their social context and their world view. These folks are not uncommon. They are not a tiny minority. They are a problem, and every day that we try to convince ourselves that they are just normally obnoxious kids going through a ‘push the boundaries’ developmental stage is a day when we allow a very real poison to take stronger hold.
And honestly, I don’t care if some of you think I am being unfair to these kids. They are part of our future, and if they have their way it won’t be a future we can feel very hopeful about.
cokane
@Laertes: Some of you have the amazing ability to diagnose people as emotionally unstable racists. What are you doing in the bowels of this blog? The Lord does not reward those who bury their talents..
http://www.theonion.com/articles/youtube-reaches-1-trillion-racist-comments,31766/
Welcome to the internet kids. It’s been here for awhile, sorry you weren’t aware of it.
mclaren
@Suzanne:
Of course some teenagers behave well. But most teenagers behave like little monsters a fair amount of the time. Deny it as you like, it remains a fact. The plain and brutal fact of the matter is that there is NO school in America from which the entire class managed to graduated with at least some of the little shits calling people a “ni33er” and doing things like tripping the fat girl in the hallway and laughing at her when she drops her books, beating up smaller kids and dunking their heads in the toilet when the teachers aren’t looking, stealing other kids’ lunch and crushing it underfoot, setting up websites to harass and ridicule other girls by calling them “sluts” and “skanks,” beating up other kids after school…and on and on and on.
Not everyone does it. But some kids do, and they make life miserable from the whole goddamn group. It’s like crime in society: not every person in society breaks into homes or carjacks or commits rape. But a some peopled do — in fact, according to the FBI, America has 80% of the world’s serial killers — and it makes life miserable for everyone else. America is just a bizarrely violent country, with far more serial killings and rapes and gun murders and deaths in bar fights per capita than almost every other country on earth. We are a hyperviolent society. Look at the statistics. That’s just the reality.
That’s life. When you try to deny this, you’re making a goddamn fool of yourself, because bullying is just endemic throughout American schools, and it’s been so thoroughly documented that trying to deny it is tantamount to trying to deny that the sky is blue or that the sun shines. You’re just making yourself a laughingstock.
SoINeedAName48
You just could NOT be more WRONG!
You think Tanner grew up in a vacuum?
The turd does NOT fall far from the asshole.
brantl
Are teenagers mal-social nitwits? Oh, yeah! Are they bigots? Not most of them, and I say this as the father of a 15 yearl old bigot, who gives the boy shit every time I hear it..