(Doonesbury via GoComics.com)
This link is especially for regular BJ morning correspondent Raven. Alex Pareene at Salon asks “What’s Wrong with MSNBC?“:
MSNBC is having ratings troubles. It came in fourth in April, after Fox, CNN, and HLN. Things have not improved in May. May 13-17 was MSNBC’s lowest-rated week since summer of 2006. So what’s wrong?…
One theory, from Deadline Hollywood, is that MSNBC is suffering because Obama is suffering. The crazy scandals we all love hearing about so much are making liberals too dispirited and depressed to tune into their favorite liberal shows, I guess.
Conservatives tend to like this theory. Liberal things failing (Air America, the Current) is usually taken as a sign, on the right, of the broader failure of liberalism. Various right-wingers have been crowing about MSNBC’s ratings woes, with, for some reason, lots of conservatives piling on Chris Hayes, whose new weeknight prime-time show hasn’t been a runaway ratings success… Liberal media just aren’t popular, the right cackles, as they also accuse all non-explicitly right-wing media of being radically left-wing.
While Hayes’ show isn’t doing great, the real poster child for MSNBC’s struggles ought to be someone whose show actually does much worse.
“Morning Joe” is the lowest rated of the big three cable news morning shows in both total viewers and the younger demographic. Fox News’ Red Eye — a show Fox airs at 3 in the morning — had more total and 25-54-year-old viewers in April 2013 than “Morning Joe” did. “Morning Joe” in April 2013 was down, from its April 2012 numbers, in total and in young viewers by a greater percentage than the rest of the network as a whole.
I’m not harping on “Morning Joe” because I think the show is representative of everything wrong with contemporary political elite thinking, though it is, but because it illustrates MSNBC’s larger problem: It’s a political talk show. Every other TV morning show is mostly fluff and weather. “Morning Joe,” instead of entertainment news updates, has a former member of Congress wave a newspaper at Mark Halperin for a while…
***********
What’s on the agenda for the start of the crowd-five-days-work-into-four week?
raven
So, the lowest rated morning show is the only conservative show on a “liberal” network and it’s because liberals are depressed? I watch Joe (less now that that these cable clowns moved it off the analog tier so I only get it on two of my five tv’s) just because of what he says. It’s a political talk show. I may not agree with most of what is on there but it’s more interesting than the other shit that is on.
Joey Maloney
And yet Halperin still messes on the rug.
Patricia Kayden
I watch Current TV in the mornings (Bill Press and Stephanie Miller). So far, I haven’t really watched Chris Hayes’ show. Ed Schultz wasn’t perfect but at least he was passionate about his viewpoints. Hayes is a bit too aloof for me, but I loved his Up With Hayes weekend show.
Hopefully MSNBC’s current slump is temporary and its ratings will bounce back. I can’t see why fake scandals would bum liberals out so much. I am not depressed at all since I expect Repubs’ focus on obstructing President Obama will backfire and they’ll inevitably overreach.
Montarvillois
I looked forward to UP With Chris Hayes on Sat. & Sun mornings for a concise wrap-up of the week’s events. I’ve only watched his new weekday evening shows a couple of times. Somehow not the same. BTW Joe the Ham & sidekick Mika are unbearable.
Schlemizel
I have given up on political rambling, hopefully its just a break but after 50 years I just have lost the desire. I honestly believe we have lost the country to the moneyed interestes and are not going to get it back in my life time. But that does not matter as much as that we have destroyed the environment and are rapidly approaching a point of no return. I see nobody with any kind of power doing much of anything that will reverse either trend and a whole array of forces including money, inertia, a general desire to be entertained to death rather than informed and stupidity standing against us.
We spent a pleasant weekend in the Colorado mountains with our daughter and her beau. He seems like a really decent guy and her new job is pretty cool so that was all good
Linda Featheringill
@Schlemizel:
I understand your discouragement. From an ecological standpoint, the future doesn’t look good. I suspect we have already reached several tipping points.
My goal is to be supportive of the younger generation and hope that humans can ride the wave[s] of change that are ahead.
But no promises.
NotMax
Open Thread goodness.
Have been pondering trolls. More specifically, my own favored depictions of trolls in various media.
In print, this guy.
In film or TV, the one who shows up between 3:30 and 5:30 in this video* (although he’s probably supposed to be more of a minotaur, he always struck me as more trollish, so rolling with that).
What might some other folks’ favorite non-internet troll appearances be?
*Name of the movie altered at the video link, from the original The Archer: Fugitive From the Empire.
nineone
They lost me with the freak out after the first debate. Post election their insufferable beat- the- Right- to -the- punching -of -Obama has been, well, insufferable. The President has always been more popular than the media will let on. They know it, and still shows like JoeMorning remain. We get it; balance and objectivity(?!?!). But while there are whole networks devoted to the ObamaHateMachine, where is the happyclappy pro-Obama all-the-time network, show, segment, word? Off the top of my head I can name at least 20 rabid nuKlan types that have unlimited access to the media no matter how demonstratively wrong or obviously stupid they are. But remarkably, despite two wins, pro-Obama folks in the media are as rare and hard to find as moderate republicans. Oh well, I listen to music and read more these days, so there’s that.
magurakurin
@Schlemizel:
focus on the good and forget the rest or at least don’t let it eat you up. You didn’t make the world the way it is. Nobody asked for your advice when they set it up and if they had you would have told them to do it a different and better way. But they didn’t so what can you do. Enjoy the sunny days when they happen. All the bad shit, it ain’t your fault, bro. I know you know all that, but, you know, try to smile.
Keith
They can start with having Rachel Maddow not spend 10 f’n minutes building up to her damn point. I tried to watch her show, and it’s just sentence after sentence of wordsmithing where I know what she’s getting to, but it’s like she’s trying to act out closing arguments of a movie trial.
On the issue of Morning Joe, I think their problem is that it’s a channel with a liberal audience, so why on earth would their audience want to watch Joe Scarborough pontificate in the AM?
PsiFighter37
Waking up on the East Coast after a few nights on the West Coast is never a pleasant experience. Hope today goes by relatively quickly.
magurakurin
@NotMax:
jesus, that is awesome. How did you ever know about that? I mean, people like to say films like Battlefield Earth are the worst ever, but that’s just lazy. This movie you got here, now this is a real contender. I gotta bookmark that link.
Judge Crater
Mike Barnicle and Donny what’s-his-name. Good Christ. What a waste of bandwidth and lack of imagination. Morning TV is a lobotomy waiting to happen.
Comrade Nimrod Humperdink
If I’m up at the ungodly hour that Morning Joe entails when I’m back in the States (left coast, 3 am, sigh) then I’ll watch because as much as I dislike the entire cast, the topics are often more interesting to me than recipe sharing, celebrity interviews, tabloid trials, and the weather. Perhaps not by much, but at that hour, what other options do I have if sleep won’t come and I don’t feel like reading or gaming? Plus I admit to the guilty pleasure of horse race coverage. It’s why I watch Matthews during election season. He’s middle-aged white Democratic id. Sometimes it’s embarrassing, sometimes it’s funny, but it’s like having an Abe Simpson on our team. I’ll watch the online versions of Rachel and Hayes when I’m in the mood to here in the land of Oz. I actually love that content model and hope more providers switch to it. I’ll endure all the 30 second ads between segments as long as I have access to the content I want from wherever I am, whenever I want it.
debit
Part of the problem is that while CNN and Fox are part of every basic cable package, MSNBC is almost always put in a higher priced package. So yes, less availability would equal less eyeballs and lower ratings.
askew
Deadline Hollywood is wrong. The reason MSNBC is fading is because they have jumped on the 24/7 bash Obama bandwagon. There is no difference between CNN, Fox and MSNBC now. It is all Obama sux, all the time. The problem with that is there is a huge # of Democrats who support Obama and don’t want to listen to him get attacked every day on the news.
That mixed with the fact that outside of Al Sharpton all of the hosts seem to read the same pundits and talk about the same stories. Rachel and Chris are basically the same host. Not to mention the fact that they all use the same guests on each show. And they use guests that are psychotically anti-Obama who have no value to add to a panel – see David Siorta, Glenn Greenwald, Joan Walsh. There is no insight to be gained by any of those people. Lastly, the Hillary 2016 push is too much too soon.
I think they would have been better off putting Joy Reid or Alex Wagner in Ed’s slot instead of Chris and added some diverse voices to the guests. We need less rich, white, urban liberals and more minorities, etc. who have a different view of Obama.
Quincy
Public policy matters are almost always complex and television is a lousy medium for conveying that complexity. Anyone who wants to be well-informed about political matters can find better ways of getting that information. If a liberal just wants to keep up with the political news cycle, Colbert is at least any entertaining way to stay I top of the day’s stupidity. Talk radio and blowhard cable programs will always have more conservative followers because they have no interest in being well informed.
IowaOldLady
I listen to Maddow, Hayes, and O’Donnell on line the next day. Does that add to their ratings?
Hayes was brilliant with in-depth discussions on UP. The nightly show gives him less chance to do that. Still he and Maddow in particular present a rounded understanding of issues that you don’t get elsewhere, for sure not on “Morning Joe.”
Comrade Dread
Yeah, I deal with enough bull****, so why would I willingly subject myself to cable news channels?
donnah
I wonder if the TV ratings aren’t partially weaker for Democrats because we get more of our info online. Blogs, for me anyway, are my daily news source. I gave up on network news a long time ago, and I quit watching the talking heads on Sunday mornings even before that.
Republicans go more for the fire-me-up rhetoric on talk radio and TV outrage like FOX. You can spot a Limbaugh groupie a mile away, just by the talking points. I think the Republicans will always come out ahead in TV ratings, but the majority of us are online.
piratedan
I suspect that the trouble in MSNBC’s ratings comes from the fact that the information model that the ratings are based upon is dying. Younger folks today don’t get their information from TV, it comes from the Web and I suspect that young liberals are simply the vanguard. Besides, MSNBC is a “liberal” leaning network run by guys with Conservative sympathies, i.e. the hosts on the evening are liberal, the programming director isn’t. That bias eventually bleeds through and folks notice, ergo why guys like Mathews and Scarborough even have gigs at all.
WereBear
Then there’s the whole Joe-and-Mika-suck thing… I think that’s a factor.
Because this is one liberal who cannot stand Joe being all faux-reasonable and verbally punching Mika in the face if she tries to stand up for anything. And the guests are intellectually disgusting. The spin they come up with to drag down good ideas makes me want that foam brick to hurl at the set.
So, yeah; no upside.
David Koch
Hayes ratings are in the toilet and it drags down Rachel’s show and Laurence’s show.
Comrade Nimrod Humperdink
@WereBear: You mean you don’t run out and grab every new book Father Jon Meachem shits out about one of the “Founding Fathers” every couple years? God that guy is insufferable…
dr. luba
@debit: Yes. When I travel I can listen to MSNBC on my Sirius car radio, but generally can’t watch it at the hotel/motel, because they don’t carry it. Fox and CNN are readily available. Ditto airppors, restaurants–CNN or Fox always seem to be playing, you never see MSNBC.
I do not watch any morning show–my god they are all so horrible–would rather just skim my favorite web sites, with NPR as background noise if a radio is within reach.
Woody
I was once a Morning Joe patron and have lost interest in the last several months. Some of this was probably post-election exhaustion, but most of it was ennui.
“Bash Obama” is right – I think there is plenty to criticize, but it’s so pro forma on MJ. Part of this is from the affected so-above-it attitudes of the Halperin-Politico courtier group. The other part lies with the NBA Retread Coach-like featured cast members. Barnicle, Ford Jr., Deutsch, et al. They’re the PJ Carlisimos of tv political shows.
Joe does have potential – he’s like so many successful business types I know who think their success is 100% earned by them on a completely level playing field – but he can actually converse with guests who disagree. He desperately needs a better supporting cast (can Mika be allowed to do anything?)
Baud
@nineone:
I feel the same way.
I watch less because of baseball, FWIW.
Comrade Nimrod Humperdink
@David Koch: Could be, though I like Hayes. I’m not surprised that he’s unpopular though, he’s basically all the liberal stereotypes rolled into one. I do like most of the guests he brings on (usually somebody with at least SOME expertise in the topic he’s talking about, which is a nice change from the usual pair of former fucking campaign flaks) and his choice of topics is often pretty good. That was why I used to like Up so much, the topics and the guests. Kornacki’s topics aren’t usually as interesting.
WereBear
@Comrade Nimrod Humperdink: LOL. Exactly. I just don’t have the Cognitive Dissonance Tolerance of even the average Wingnut.
David Koch
its’ gonna hurt, but they need to bring olberman back. Hayes really laid an strinkero and they need to make a slash. Keith is hard to work with, and he will eventually self destruct, but for a period of time, he can straighten things out.
askew
I think Olbermann’s time is over. I think adding Chris to the line-up hurt the entire night because he and Rachel are too similar. MSNBC gets the highest ratings among African-Americans and they used to do really well among young people. I think they would be well served by putting a minority in Chris’s timeslot and changing out some of the rotating guests. No one needs to hear from Joan Walsh anymore. These old hack liberals haven’t had anything interesting to say in decades.
They also need to get over their fear that they are Obama cheerleaders if they don’t spend part of each show crapping on him. Their audience likes Obama and right now they are chasing the same Obama hating audience that is already watching CNN or Fox.
The shift in ratings happened in March – May so it isn’t that young viewers are watching online or that the channel isn’t available in the basic line-up. There was definitely a shift in tone on the network starting right after Obama’s inauguration. It seems producers decided to go anti-Obama thinking it would help them attract Fox viewers. It is the same mistake CNN made for years. Now, CNN is chasing disasters to bring up ratings and is devoting less time to politics.
Comrade Nimrod Humperdink
@David Koch: Meh, Lawrence O’Donnell basically IS Olbermann, just a little less self-destructive. Olbermann had a nice moment when he was one of the only voices in TV land giving voice to a piece of that constant rage so many of us felt from 2003 onwards (even 2000 for many, given the level of the heist involved). But I got tired of it eventually. It’s why I only watch an O’Donnell clip if the topic looks interesting. I’d rather have Hayes than either of those two, though the person that pointed out that Hayes and Maddow are basically the same host was pretty dead on. One is a bit quirkier and more fun than the other (which I think is a big part of why she has a following and he doesn’t really) but aside from that if you had them cover an election together you’d think the network was trying to cut costs by putting the same host in two different outfits.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Keith: Good points, but she has time to fill so she has to do something…
[Long rant follows:]
I appreciate Rachel, but the whole way MSNBC sets up their evening shows annoys me. I don’t watch her regularly any more. It goes back to Olbermann’s show (if not before) – Open with 10+ minutes of talking and trying to be earnest and make the show’s topics sound really important. Then have a short commercial break. Continue, but then have longer and more frequent breaks with fluff or teasers in between long breaks. Yeah, we get it, you’ve got to make money because people only watch MSNBC between 8 and 11. But don’t punish us so…
But beyond the format, there was too little difference between the shows. Other than the personalities, they cover the same stuff over and over again for 3+ hours. Why watch Ed or Chris and then watch Rachel or Larry? It’s often like the shows have the same writers too. Yeah, you’ve drummed it into me. I get it. When’s the quiz?
The absolutely biggest problem with the MSNBC political shows, in my opinion, is the apparent belief that outrage fatigue doesn’t exist. And that the latest insanity from the Republicans somehow needs to be “countered” and that that is a way to get ratings. I think that the history of the network over the last 20 years or so shows that that isn’t working. Why do these shows seemingly spend 50+ % of their time giving air time to the Republican leadership or insane backbenchers (who the nation as a whole has no ability to vote out of office) and put up as counters other commentators on their network (in an apparent effort to promote their other time slots that have even fewer viewers) or obscure political operatives, or freshman members of congress who have little or no power and are at risk of being voted out in 18 months? Is the idea that we’re supposed to get enraged and send money to a candidate against the insanity? Well, we can do some of that (I admit I’ve done it), but I’m not made of money and I’m not going to give a candidate money 18 months before an election. So now what? What’s your brilliant plan to keep me interested and watching? It gets old and there are too few hours in the day for me to spend several of them getting riled up when nothing comes of it.
We gripe about St. John McCain being on the Sunday shows every week, but where is Nancy? Where is Harry? Where is Dick Durbin? Where is Barbara Mikulski? Where is Franken? Where is Whitehouse? Why aren’t these people viewing it as an important part of their job to relentlessly push their agendas to the national media? Why are they always reacting? Why do I only hear from them when they want money? Why aren’t they seeing that to change the direction of government they’ve got to change the perception of the populace? That means not letting the opposition control the memes and the airwaves. That means showing up to present their side. I know Nancy used to have regular press conferences when she was Speaker. Maybe they are available any time for MSNBC or anyone else, but nobody calls. I find that hard to believe (Rachel seemed to heavily push the fact that Nancy was on recently), but who knows…
Yeah, pointing and laughing at stupidity is fun, and getting outraged can be cathartic, but then what? You’ve got 3 hours. You don’t have to make 20+% of the time commercials if you get a good audience. How do you get a good audience? Don’t treat them like children. Make it worth their while to watch and learn something. Have interesting people on. Spend more than 3 sentences on a topic. Go beyond “Republican Bad, Democratic Good” – we know that – tell us why and tell us how things can be made better. Larry has been very good about this with the IRS “scandal”, but he’s too often insufferable IMO.
I expect MSNBC’s rating to bump up some when the next election rolls around. Until then, there’s little reason for political junkies (or anyone else) to watch. But I expect them to keep tweaking the personalities without making the kinds of changes that are needed. (Hint: Having 4 or more people discuss a topic in 5 minutes isn’t a good use of time. Watch the way Moyers does an interview on his show sometime.)
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
askew
I think the network also spends too much time spouting the far left talking points, when the far left makes up a very small portion of the country. I am not sure we need hours of shows daily on drone policy. I am not sure that issue resonates with the majority of Democrats the way it does with far left/libertarians. Ed was good because he brought a different viewpoint to his show. It didn’t focus on beltway scandals or the latest Professional Left meltdown. That’s why they missed an opportunity to put someone in Ed’s slot that spoke for the left/moderate Democrats. I think Joy Reid is the best voice they have for that right now on MSNBC.
I also think the entire line-up would be helped immensely by a meeting between producers each morning to make sure they are not duplicating the same stories from the same viewpoint every hour.
Comrade Nimrod Humperdink
@askew: What do you define as far left? Far left doesn’t get tv time. MSNBC is just liberal. When the panelists start getting sourced from Z magazine or something, then you’ve hit far left.
mike with a mic
@David Koch:
No, they don’t. Olberman was kinda neat when he was the only one, but his show was pretty much just angry ranting and raving. He was the talk radio of liberal TV. While that was OK with Bush in office, it doesn’t feel right now.
Though I don’t really like much of anything about MSNBC to be honest. Lawrence is just as much of a dick as Olberman but does it in that smug North Eastern liberal style. He’s toxic, and I’m not a fine of inviting people on your show to insult them. Maddow, while very smart, is actually a bit of a dick as well but does her mocking in a cutesie sort of “haha, look how dumb they are but you’re not dumb your watching me, let’s laugh at other people”. Ed was a bit of an ass when he was around as well and had a habit of screaming and yelling at things. I can tolerate any of them in specific cases, but Lawrence, Ed, and Maddow are all the worst sort of liberal stereotypes. They’re the sort of people I’d trot in a “liberals are horrible assholes but in different ways” contest.
I do like Hayes off and on, Alex is fine, Harris Perry is fine as well. Korniak is fine when he’s on. But I get that they don’t have the charisma and force of personality compared to the others. I just don’t think liberal TV works for the masses when it turns into “watch liberals be assholes or make fun of non liberals”. It was kinda cathartic while Bush was in office, but it just feels like punching cripples.
vtr
You could try watching the radio. NPR’s Morning Edition is good, serious news – especially compared to anything on tv. Many public radio stations carry BBC news in the morning. If you have one of those new computer gizmos, try streaming The Bill Press Show. On The West Coast, stream Stephany Miller is entertaining and pretty smart. If you need to stare at moving images while chewing, Bill and Stephanie are still on Current TV. (Damned AT&T dropped Current, though.)
askew
@Comrade Nimrod Humperdink:
I’d consider far left David Sirota, Gleen Greenwald, etc. those who talk about Obama’s done policy = Bush’s Iraq War. These are views far outside the mainstream of America and there is an abundance of those talking points on Rachel and Chris’s shows that I think lose left/moderate Democrats who are baffled by the way they talk about the Obama administration.
raven
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Wow, well said!
Suffern ACE
Is tweety still on this network with a show? That has been the problem for 20 years.
Capri
They know how Fox build and keeps its audience – it’s a 24/7 outrage machine. Because TV is about emotion more than anything else.
If they wanted to get the ratings up they’d find their own stuff to get outraged over – and there’s plenty of it out there.
Ed Schultz was on the right track. Go after the the dude Ed was going after. Instead they decided to get the hipster viewer.
Schlemizel
@vtr:
Apparently you get a different version of NPR there then we do here. Here Morning edition is Republican in a smiling face instead of the ham-handed way we are used to
Schlemizel
@Capri:
I’m not convinced that outrage can capture and hold liberals the way it does conservatives. The lizard brain is not as dominant on the left as the right currently. Plus, while it might be momentarily satisfying in the long run rage has its limitations and ends up causing more problems than it solves
NotMax
@magurakurin
Heh.
It was originally a made-for-TV pilot for a possible series, shown in 1981. Watched it when it aired then.
Cheesy sword and sorcery, absolutely. Yet for such an obscure project, it has developed a cult following of sorts over time.
Also includes what are positively not George Kennedy’s finest moments on screen. Distinctly remember shaking my head at his casting then.
By the way, that’s Richard Moll (Bull from Night Court) under that troll get-up.
mr.peabody
@Keith: Bingo! I like Rachel and usually agree with her points, But I’ll be goddamned if it doesn’t take her forever to get there. She uses a hundred words when ten would do.
It’s like she thinks she’s explaining things to 5 year olds.
Also, too: I miss Olbermann.
WereBear
Rachel Maddow is more intelligent than at least 99% of the population, just based on having a doctorate, being a woman in a highly competitive field, and being another minority (lesbian) in our highly judgemental society.
As a “certified” political scientist, she is supposed to know more about her subject than her audience. That’s why she has a show!
So I don’t mind if it seems to take her a long time to get to a point; she’s not talking to ME, obviously. She is trying to herd along a bunch of people who are willing to hang in there and understand something that wasn’t covered in kindergarten.
It’s amazing she has the audience she has.
mike with a mic
@mr.peabody:
My problem is that I don’t think she’s productive.
Like the entire time Obama was offering to slash social security and kept pushing for it. Rather than rallying behind social security (which should be the default liberal position) she kept going on air and pointing out how Republicans were too stupid to realize Obama was trying to cut social security, how awesome it would be for them, all the time smiling and giggling about it.
Now that’s fine if all you want to do as a Democrat is laugh at how stupid they are because they don’t realize that Obama is trying to harm social security. And if want you want to do is giggle and laugh about how stupid they are. On the other hand shouldn’t a liberal be up there railing about why this is bad and putting pressure on the administration not do do it?
And that’s always the issue with Maddow. When it comes down to issues that affect her directly (anything revolving around women’s issues or gay rights) she can step up and defend the progressive line. But when it comes to fucking over the poor she doesn’t back the progressive line and devolves into “tehehehehe, Republicans are stupid, and let’s all laugh at them and mock them”.
You couldn’t find a better example of a Northern well off social liberal who does nothing but make fun of conservatives and laugh while the Democrats screw people less well off than her.
HRA
I would turn MSNBC even before my coffee and watch or listen to it almost constantly. Something happened along the way. I began not turning on or turning off MSNBC programs one by one.
Although most of the comments above ring true as to my own feelings, I am still quite surprised at my own actions regarding MSNBC.
Higgs Boson's Mate
Obama’s first run for president was when I gave up politics shows, all of them. I did it because I was certain that he’d be elected and that things would get really ugly afterward. I haven’t missed them.
jamick6000
“the problem with msnbc is there’s not enough Obots.” — Obots
“the problem with msnbc is there’s not enough firebaggers.” –firebaggers
rikyrah
There’s an audience out there that expects folks to defend the President.
DEFENDING THE PRESIDENT GOT THEM THEIR RATINGS.
Putting on a pointy head mofo (HAYES) with no grasp of bread and butter issues who puts on segments people don’t give a shyt about (DRONES) is why the ratings are down.
Even if you didn’t like Ed, there is no doubt in my mind that the Sequester would have been handled completely differently by him. He woulda had someone – on the grassroots level – affected by the Sequester – on every damn night. A Senior without meals on wheels, parents without daycare, folks without healthcare, etc. Night in, night out – putting a face to the Sequester. Not any ‘theory’ about the Sequester, but the meat and potatoes of who is getting screwed.
This writer isn’t the first one to down Larry O.
I can get down on Larry O, but he tells a whole lotta truth..
and does it from that South Boston perspective. And a whole lotta Larry O’s political history has him revealing just how messed up the Clinton Years were…which is a no-no with this crowd
Chyron HR
@jamick6000:
“The problem with MSNBC is that it’s the propaganda wing of the Obama administration.” – MSNBC regular Glenn Greenwald
Uncle Ebeneezer
I think several here have nailed it in pointing out that Hayes and Maddow are just too similar and that in general most of the MSNBC lineup gets real repetitive (same topics, same guests etc.)
I also agree that Up was the best weekend show out there and Chris was doing a really great job in that role which was a great fit for him. His show was actually the womkiest, imo, which made it a great change of pace from the rest of the week’s lineup.
The biggest reason for ratings slump is probably the fact that it’s not an election year and nothing (besides GOP faux-scandals) is going on. I’m guessing alot of liberals are pretty burnt out after 5 years of the GOP screaming bloody murder over everything, and the MSM largely echoing their concerns.
Elie
@askew:
I agree that they have jumped more onto the Obama sux train…I will also say I don’t like that at all and I have turned away from Tweedy on a couple of occasions. I count on these guys to lay out the argument that goes counter to the media propaganda — not support it. I never watch Morning Jo — ever.
Chris Hayes is, as I feared, not quite the audience attractor, but that might be unfair. I’ve watched him and he comes off enthusiastic ..
AxelFoley
@askew:
You summed it all up perfectly.
jamick6000
@Chyron HR: the problem a lot of you are having is that you’re hyper sensitive to any criticism of Obama, so it skews your perception. In reality, there’s a bit of criticism on there, but not much.
The real problem for MSNBC is the right wing is way more interested in politics than the left wing.
xian
@Keith: re
maybe it’s an Aaron Sorkin-esque fantasy?
RaflW
Chris Hayes really was ideal for Up. Digesting the week in two weekend installments, a chance to get Sunday show prebuttals with some depth, and the luxury of time for his panels.
Kornaki is the b movie stand in. And I just can’t stomach ANY cable news M-F, blogs and news sites are it during the work week.
The promotion of Hayes to weeknight format is a wrong fit. But ego (I’m thinking producers & network execs more than Chris, but who knows) will most likely mean the flop won’t get dealt with well.
MomSense
@xian:
maybe it’s an Aaron Sorkin-esque fantasy?
YES! And then people on the left will scream “Obama sold us out. He’s worse than Bush” because they heard it on GE and Comcast owned MSNBC.
Elie
@jamick6000:
I disagree that the right wing enthusiasm is the only reason. I think we do need some more variety and I would welcome Joi Ann Reid or Alex having their own show. I also agree that they need to find some other guests and present some real world people and situations that folks can identify with. Both Chris and Rachel are running in the same groove and even are starting to look alike with their glasses and smoothed back hair.
I frankly enjoy political shows and turne to MSNBC until I hear the anti-Obama shit from Tweedy lately or the same ol same ol on the other shows…
MomSense
@rikyrah:
This. A billion times this.
Elie
@jamick6000:
Also, I am hypersensitive to criticism of Obama not when its deserved — but when its assholery and outright lies that go unrebutted by the so called media. Yep, that drives me wild. You — maybe not so much…
Redshirt
Kill your TV.
maya
Well, MSNBC might improve their ratings by showing memory lane reruns of the ol’gang at NBC selling the Iraq invasion and other librull accomplishments.
* Katie Curic’s “Navy Seals rock” performance would have wide appeal today. And the dancing Marine passing out candy interview. Priceless!
* Tom Brokaw harrumphing his way through the Dean Scream travesty ( granted, a tossup with his Al Gore’s “Too wooden” proclamation) and, especially, his “Now that we own Iraq, Mr. President” journalistic triumph on board the USS Mission Accomplished with GWB is the food stuff of American Jurno-legend.
* All NBC past interviews with former 4 star Generals should always have a place around Military Holidays.
* Repeats of St. Timmy’s MTP sessions with Dick Cheney would never fail to bring out the hankies.
In short, they have all the librall revival– material they will ever need in their archives. Unless they were accidentally deleted.
ira-NY
Morning Joe is the wrong way for MSNBC to start its day. It is too conservative, too old and too male to be palatable to the audience MSNBC seemingly wants to attract.
azrev
Replace “Morning Joe” with almost anyone else from MSNBC and I’ll watch it. Why would any liberal want to start the day listening to him?
Cacti
Here’s a thought…
Most Democrats are not the netroots or firebagger left. They generally like the POTUS, are down with his policies, and think he’s a pretty good guy.
That’s not the audience MSNBC is shooting for.
Ruckus
@Schlemizel:
This is as old as the hills(So older than you and me) and you know all of it, but conservatives want nothing to change(except to go backwards of course) while liberals want to actually govern and discuss issues of governing. The MSM wants everything to be in short sound bites because they believe none of us has the even attention span of a flat rock. Conservatives never talk about issues they can’t make up and therefore control. They never want to discuss, learn, think about things, they want to be told what to do, how to think and act. And we don’t. It’s why we are all over the map on many issues and come together on a few. Mostly on the issues that allow us to be all over the map.
Librarian
I agree that Rachel takes forever to get to the point, and is repetitious, but also I hate her teasers. Hate, hate hate them. Particularly when they’re during the break at the bottom of the hour, when you have what must be a solid 10 straight minutes of commercials.
I’m with those who watch Morning Joe because, as bad as it is, because it’s usually politics, it’s still better than all the other shit that’s on that time.
AxelFoley
@rikyrah:
Bingo.
nineone
@jamick6000: Tweety LOL!
askew
@Cacti:
And that is exactly the problem. There simply isn’t enough people in the country who agree with the firebagger left to keep MSNBC afloat. They are going for the smallest segment of the Democratic party and turning off the rest of the Dems, independents and Republicans. Not a winning combination.
gene108
@Uncle Ebeneezer:
This would be the perfect time for the “liberal media” to develop an actual liberal agenda, with actual liberal talking points.
There’s enough stuff on the interents that when your wing-nut relative/friend/neighbor says they have “proof” Obama is a dictator, you can easily rebut them with stuff you’ve read here or elsewhere.
What drew me into MSNBC 7-8 years ago, was Keith Olbermann actually refuting the crap that was circulating everywhere else. Same with The Daily Show w/ Jon Stewart, when he was one of the few people pointing out how absurd the media was with regards to parroting the Republican line.
That doesn’t need to be the role of the liberal talking heads anymore.
There really is a lack of a coherent liberal message, with regards to the economy, the social safety net, etc. That is where they need to be focusing and the reality for liberals is the Democratic Party is the Party that will advocate for your agenda, so by default a pro-liberal message has to be a pro-Democratic Party message and not some contrary exercise in logic about how Democrats continue to fail liberalism.
namekarB
I am sure I am not the first to have observed that it is an apple and oranges comparison. MSNBC does not report any news other than political news (and the occasional catastrophe) whereas the other outlets are, for the most part, reporting general news.
phoebes-in-santa fe
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: You’ve summed it up quite nicely. One of the problems with the roll-out of Obama-care was that the Dems – including Obama – should have been on every Sunday talk show, used paid commercials, gone on to every radio show they could, to get the message about the bill out there to the American public. I read that when Romney-care was unveiled in Massachusetts, that he and other state officials were out there plugging away at the public and explaining the virtues of the act.
Instead, with Obama-care, WE let the Republicans define it and we’re still playing catch-up to this day. Dems have to be more aggressive.
As to morning shows, the only one I can stomach is “Morning Joe”. I LIKE having a diversity of opinion and MJ does devote much more time to interesting issues than almost any other program on TV at any time. I just with they’d get rid of the prison shows, true crime, etc, on the weekends. WHO THE HELL WATCHES THAT CRAP?
Ben Cisco
Cable “news” is, as currently constructed, an insult to anyone who actually passed the 9th grade.
If you’re bitchin’ about MSNBC, but are watching Morning Ho and Stockholm Mika, you’re part of the problem.
If you’re bitchin’ about MSNBC, but think Nice Polite Republicans is in the same quadrant as “liberal”, you’re part of the problem.
If you’re bitchin’ about MSNBC, and think that their whopping three hours daily of non-NeoConfederate programming means their management actually wanted you as an audience, you’re not paying attention.
Ella in New Mexico
Not sure if this is accurate, but I understand that basically we have two kinds of audiences nationally in regards to cable news network watchers.
The people who watch FOX daily are fewer in number nationally (27% comes to mind?), older and whiter, more “Christian” and Republican party-adhering in their political views. They read fewer papers and magazines, are uncomfortable with the internet. They vote R consistently, and attend church more frequently than any other group. They believe the country is falling apart, that we have lost our essential (Christian) values and they truly fear socialism. And they all have one thing in common: they watch FOX news every day, sometimes all day, without fail, and look to FOX and it’s “friends” to guide and reinforce their viewpoints on all things political.
And the rest of us have a fucking life.
MomSense
@phoebes-in-santa fe:
I was very involved with organizing for Obamacare and I will tell you that we were out there and the President was too–but the media chose to cover the tea party instead of us. The President addressed a joint session of Congress and then Joe Wilson yelled “you lie” which turned out to be like a laser light in a room full of cats. That is all the media talked about. Then when the tea party/republican/fux driven anti Obama noise went to eleventy–he had to work behind the scenes because the more he talked about it publicly the lower his and ObamaCare’s approval ratings went.
I have so many memories of turning out hundreds for press events and having the media go talk to the 3 sad/crazy tea partiers off to the side and ignoring us.
Matt McIrvin
I’m convinced that Obamacare will remain unpopular even after it goes fully into effect. Not because people actually dislike the programs; they’ll like them fine, but they won’t realize that these programs are the dreaded “Obamacare”, which they will still hate. The shock will set in the day after it all gets repealed, which will happen the moment Republicans control both the White House and Congress.
nellcote
MSNBC needs to ban Politico from their operation. The show producers use Mike Allen’s tip sheet to set up the 5 or 6 stories they’ll cover ALL DAY, barring a natural disaster/car chase of some sort. Hayes/Maddow seem to be going for Amy Goodman’s audience and that’s obviously not a ratings grabber. They should give Joy Reid Hayes’ time slot for a couple of weeks and watch the ratings zoom.
Elie
@phoebes-in-santa fe:
Part of the “Real” problem is that no one alive today has much experience with rolling out such a huge program. The last time we had this was back in 1960 +/- when Medicare was rolled out. We are very impatient and have no idea the pace and process of such a change takes, so we expect that its just a matter of the administration or whoever just “selling it” by talking nice about it. The truth is, there will be blood and enemies. Why? Because the old order will have to change and the winners in that old system, (which was just about every institutional and specialist provider), aint gonna like the loss of control and the decrease or “management” of their revenues. They will fight it and fight any good press Obamacare gets. That said, most serious parts of the healthcare world know that its essential to do, so they will do it but it won’t look smooth and beautiful like the chronic left progressives complain. Like when you are moving houses, you know its gotta get done, but its painful and messy as hell and it takes a while to transition and then settle into the new home. We’ll be hearing about Obamacare “failure” until the last dog dies.
MazeDancer
This thread is an MSNBC focus group of gold for them. If they had a clue.
The capture of the media by the right wing and Benghazi and IRS and the GOP getting to control all agendas all the time is just too impossible to watch. Especially on MSNBC.
I, too, am one more news junkie who has simply turned it off. Sticking to no talking NYTimes online. With some Guardian clicks now and then.
MSNBC has to stand for truth telling, or they have no audience.
And sexist, pompous, wants-to-be-President Joe and wimpy, frowny, never-sets-the-record-straight Mika and repugnant Mark (ugh) Halperin and Politi (ugh-ugh) co are all the opposite of truth. It’s called Morning Joe not Morning Mika, so guess she’s supposed to just enable him. Which promotes lies.
Of course, moving Chris Hayes to nightly run was a mistake. “That won’t work” was the first reaction of everyone who loved Up. It was the long, wonky, think fest of interesting, unusually informed guests having a deep conversation that people liked. Once a week, on the weekends. Not every night. Watched the week night version twice. Snooze. Rachel is better at it than he is, don’t need both.
nineone
@phoebes-in-santa fe: They can’t invite themselves on teh teevee and teh reddio, if they did the CSA types would have screamed about strongarm Chicago tactics, Hitler, fascismFREEDUMB! As for radio, take s spin down teh dial. How much non-wingnut space is even available anymore?
And really, is it seriously possible to be heard when there are nine wingnuts with megaphones shouting talking points in unison while you try to convince Grandma that you’re not going to turn her into Soylent Green?
McJulie
@MomSense:
HEEHEEHEE
It seems to me that the reason “liberal equivalent” media never turns out to be as popular as Fox News/Rush Limbaugh stuff is that most liberals want something different from their media. I tried Air America — it turned out I just don’t like the talk radio format, and that reaction didn’t seem atypical for other liberals. If people hate the cable news format, full stop, those people seem to be liberals. If people don’t even have a TV, those people are nearly always liberals.
So, without speculating about why any of that is, it’s just something that seems to be true.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@jamick6000: The real problem for MSNBC is the right wing is way more interested in politics than the left wing.
More like conservatives are more interested in the tribal wee wee wagging, shouting match the cable TV news presents than anyone else. Otherwise, what’s going on in the world that’s so urgent that we need to watch 24/7 news and not read about it on the internet?
Seanly
@Schlemizel:
Yeah, I’m not too confident about a positive outcome for human civilization in the next 40 or 50 years. It’ll be one hell of slide into Hell though…
RE: MSNBC, I like a lot of what their liberal commentators say, but don’t feel any need or desire to watch any of them. When I’m at the gym on the stationary bike, I may put on some MSNBC (unless it’s Tweety time), but usually opt for ESPN or trying to find Family Guy. Wife will occassionally get on a Maddow kick at home which is when I’ll go play some Neverwinter.
patroclus
I can only speak for myself, but I stopped watching MSNBC regularly about a month or so ago when they switched to all faux scandals all the time like the other networks. Previously they had been pushing gun control and immigration reform and marriage equality and reproductive rights, and then they just switched and started treating the terrorist attack in Benghazi as some sort of scandal, the IRS checking into political activities of supposed social welfare groups as some sort of scandal and the investigation into leaks of classified information as some sort of scandal. If I wanted that view, there are plenty of other options pushing that, so while I still channel surf through MSNBC, their producers’ decisions to act like lemmings and the rest of the lamestream media stopped my regular viewing of MSNBC.
For example, I just switched over and they had Ron Frickin Fournier and Bob Herbert on lambasting the Obama administration for investigating leaks of classified information as mandated by the Espionage Act – both treated it as some sort of “scandal” when it clearly isn’t. And they both blathered on and on about the government shouldn’t even prosecute “journalists” like James Rosen for publishing classified information. I don’t need this…so I’m switching back to ESPN.
WereBear
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: More like conservatives are more interested in the tribal wee wee wagging, shouting match the cable TV news presents than anyone else.
dww44
@Comrade Nimrod Humperdink: Thanks for saying that. As a lifelong Democrat, I’ve not noticed that the far left has a MSM megaphone at all. Truth is, I don’t even know the names of any. Would love for someone to tell me who they are.
Hill Dweller
MSNBC’s ratings have tanked because the morning and afternoon lineup is Fox-lite, and the evening lineup is relentlessly hitting Obama from the left.
That said, criticism from the left is more credible than the GOP talking points pushed during the morning/daytime, but the biggest problem facing this country is the Republican party. Nothing else comes close. But if you watch cable, you’d think Obama is causing all our problems.
Jebediah
@PsiFighter37:
When you woke up on the East Coast, were you expecting that you were still on the West Coast? Must have been a heck of a night…
Bruce S
It was a mistake putting Chris Hayes in the Ed slot, when he ran the best show on cable on weekend mornings – where his kind of in depth talk belonged. And Ed was good in rousing the troops in prime time. (Although I remember not long ago when Ed was being castigated as an Obama-hater by some idiots in these threads.) I knew it was a bad choice to move Ed and Chris – and will be proved right. Unfortunate.
But when I read some crap here calling Chris Hayes a “pointy headed mofo with no grasp of bread and butter issues”, the best response is “Go fuck yourself, if that’s your best shot.” What a punk comment! Among other things, Chris Hayes has had great coverage of the fast-food workers protests, putting them on to speak for themselves. “Pointy head” – Thanks Spiro Agnew and George Wallace, because that’s who you’re channeling.
Why I hate so many of these sorry motherfuckers who get hysterical claiming to defend Obama all of the time, but don’t share even a little bit of his ability to deal with complexity. Some of these loudmouth Obama “supporters” are just embarrassing.
nineone
@Bruce S: Chris needs you on that wall…
Bruce S
@nineone:
What wall?
nineone
@Bruce S: Excatly.
Bruce S
@nineone:
Huh?
Bruce S
@phoebes-in-santa fe:
The only “diversity” on Morning Joe is elite opinion. You get asshole elite Dems like that piece of shit Harold Ford, Ed Rendell or that Billionaire who saved the auto companies or you get asshole elite GOPers like Richard Haas from CFR whose claim to fame is that he was silently “60% against the Iraq War” while working for the Bush State Department. I hate Morning Joe. I sometimes “hate watch” it – but the notion that there is any diversity other than “how much do we screw the little people with entitlement cuts and austerity” is nonsense. In some ways it’s worse than FOX, because a lot of liberals fall for that crap – like David Brooks. Joe outed himself when he so dishonestly went after Krugman. Unfortunately, Krugman is too civil to tell Scarborough to go fuck himself with his bullshit. Because he’s nothing but a blowhard pushing the same old GOP crap. That he does it while wearing deodorant – unlike most of the rest of the GOP – is more of a testament to how crazy Wingnutopia has become than Scarborough having anything worthwhile to say. If we want to start cutting entitlements, we could start with the clowns who populate that show. Never have so few felt entitled to so much…
Bruce S
@askew:
Joy Reid is my favorite guest, but I have to say that when she filled in for Melissa HP she wasn’t great as a host. Just didn’t have the flash and fire she has when she’s responding to questions or to other guests comments. Hosting seemed kind of a waste of her intellect and insight. Different folks have different talents. Same with Chris Hayes – his was a brilliant and unique show on weekends, but seems like he’s just cloning Rachel on weekdays in the hour slot. Ed is a good populist rabble-rouser but not much of a journalist when it comes to in-depth discussions. Different strokes – they all need to be deployed strategically and someone at MSNBC seems to have their head up their ass. Something that works well in one context can be a real dud in another. The only MSNBC shows I hate – beside Lockup – are Morning Joe and that clusterfuck at noon with SE Cupp, the guy with one name, et. al. Most of the mid-day crew are lackluster, with the exceptions of Alex Wagner and Tamron – both of whom might suffer a bit as journalists for being exceptionally cute. In a good way, but may be distracting from their talents.
Jebediah
@NotMax:
Trollhunter!
Bruce S
@nineone:
Sorry but the notion of a network that’s devoted to endlessly singing the praises of an administration is…uh…FOX News! Yeah – the notion that we need a Democratic FOX News – or even a show – dedicated solely to singing the praises of a sitting President is pathetic. And if you can’t find sufficiently pro-Obama people on MSNBC, you’re just an idiot. It’s not MSNBC, it’s you.
Anoniminous
$99 a month to cable-up to watch MSNBC over twenty years is $23,760.
I have better things to do with the money.
Bruce S
@Anoniminous:
Uh…you can watch all of the MSNBC shows free on the internet. Just saying if you’re interested. I have cable for HBO and a couple of others because I don’t want to wait a year to Netflix my favorite series. But you can access most of this content for free-to-very-little if you wait anywhere from 6 hours to a year, depending on if it’s MSNBC or HBO.
rikyrah
@Bruce S:
I’m the one that called him a pointy head mofo
and I stand by it.
I used to watch MSNBC from 7-10 at least 3-4 days a week. I’d catch part of Ed, Maddow and Larry O.
Hayes ruins the entire block of programming.
Hayes is insufferable.
The ratings speak for themselves.
mai naem
@patroclus: Look, when you look at the phone records of journos, they’re all pretty much going to go after you. I don’t care about the reasons for doing it but that’s going to be the reaction from the journos. That was a stupid move on the Obama admin/DOJ’s part.
Listening to a right of center host earlier this year, she was talking about how Fox was down in viewers from Dec to Jan/Feb and her reasoning was that the rightwing viewers were burned out and needed a break esp. since their guy lost. I think MSNBC is having a similar result. Their viewers are burned out from the GOP’s never stopping obstruction, then the “scandals” taking over.
I don’t have a problem with Rachel’s long set up. She has to aim at a 5th grade level. Chris Hayes, I love him, but he needs to go back to the weekend or pair him up with a hot youngish smart loudmouthed liberal chick – preferably somebody who’s not well known and please not a Rachel clone. Aisha Taylor? I love Lizz Winstead but I think she would totally overwhelm Chris. I hate the Cycle… hate it… hate it……HATE IT!
Bruce S
@rikyrah:
That was an asshole comment. With a George Wallace pedigree, whether you know it or not. But you’re more than welcome to stand by it. It speaks for itself.
Anoniminous
@Bruce S:
Tried that for a while, too big of a time suck for the Information gained. I do watch Nova and other PBS programs and Specials o’er the internet.
(We also drive Volvos and carry our stuff in totebags. ;-)
Bruce S
@Anoniminous:
I’d toast your lifestyle choices, but I don’t drink Chardonnay. Hope lifting my glass of single malt scotch is tribute enough…
I watch MSNBC mostly as an entertainment – skip through a lot of it, but I like some of Hayes’ roundtables, a few minutes of Maddow snark and a bit of an O’Donnell rant to keep my hate-the-GOP juices flowing. I actually used to learn things when Chris Hayes had his weekend morning show, which was not “insufferable” as has been alleged but excellent and clearly the best cable “news” show on the air. (If I went with “proof is in the ratings”, I’d be watching Bill O’Reilly, which has all of the appeal of sticking a gun in my mouth.) But I mostly return to my comforting daily MSNBC fix because Justified, Treme, Madmen or Boardwalk Empire aren’t on every night.
El Cid
Joe Scarborough is an insufferable douchebag and I wouldn’t turn on MSNBC during his show time if you paid me. It’s absolute shit.
Hayes in my opinion is the best, but MSNBC needs to stop thinking only about live broadcast viewers. I don’t have time to watch *anything* at 8 pm.
Elizabelle
I really like Martin Bashir. Why not give him the 8 p slot, and do a more global, less political horse race show.
Maybe some well done segments on cost effective ways other countries and states are handling health care, job creation and R&D, military stuff.
But gear it to folks who also watch Colbert and The Daily Show. Show them what smart young folks are seeing in different countries.
Have a co-host who is funny, irreverent and well-informed. There has to be a market for that.
MSNBC evening is too much preaching to the choir, and responding to Fox outrage.
Give viewers something they’re not getting on cable and the networks, and not framed by Republicans.
And definitely support Obama in his long-term goals. He is for a better America. Don’t pretend he is not.
LAC
@nineone: Me too. Yuck, fucking hours of whinging and whining that gets on your nerves. And the evenings – Chris Matthews blathering about the time he and Tip O’Neil got drunk and fell of a bench and laughed and laughed and why isn’t Obama screaming at people…or Rachel Maddow’s long winded monologue that still gets it wrong…or Ed Schultz and his never ending guests Michael Moore and Bernie Saunders. And “Morning Blow”? Only if I lose a bet will I watch that. It doesn’t make me want to tune in on the weekends and I am probably missing out on Hayes.
jefft452
@Bruce S: “It was a mistake putting Chris Hayes in the Ed slot, when he ran the best show on cable on weekend mornings – where his kind of in depth talk belonged”
Ding ding ding – We have a winner
It aint complicated – major schedule shakeup followed by a ratings drop, and dollars to doughnuts the latter was caused by the former
No need to assuming a sudden shift in the national mood, or the audience just discovering previously unnoticed faults in the personalities of the hosts
LAC
@Bruce S: I do not think that is what the poster is saying. Not that you are listening…
Bruce S
@LAC:
I think it’s more like, “not that you are reading”:
Here was the comment: “where is the happyclappy pro-Obama all-the-time network, show, segment…remarkably, despite two wins, pro-Obama folks in the media are as rare and hard to find as moderate republicans”
So, yes it is as written a call for more “pro-Obama all-the-time netoworks, shows, segments.” Which is an incredibly dumb idea. I’m “pro-Obama” because Obama is “pro” more of the things that I support than any of the other guys. But he’s not above criticism and there are areas – like TImmy Giethner and the housing debacle – where I think he’s been AWOL on what the country really needed. But the President isn’t the person who defines my politics. Nor should he define the politics of any journalist. He’s a great guy, the best I remember, but Presidents are very complicated, compromised characters – or they would never have made it that far in politics. “Best President” is part of a much more complicated political picture. Being Obama-centric is a very limited perspective that doesn’t get us much. It doesn’t even help Obama, who needs public pressure on key issues coming from his left so he can move forward rather than always be respondiung to reactionary opposition. He doesn’t need a fan club. He’s not Justin Bieber. He’s a sophisticated adult who has a more complex understanding of politics than most of his supporters.
Bruce S
@LAC:
Hayes is no longer on weekends, but Steve Kornacki moved from that awful foursome to take over Hayes “Up” spot for two hours on Saturday and Sunday and he’s doing a good job. That’s the show – along with Melissa HP – where you get the most intelligent talk from the most diverse and often most expert and interesting guests. Harris Perry is a little to self-consciously “nerdy” cute for my taste, but she’s a smart cookie and does a good job. Also one of the few of these hosts who will discuss religious faith through a progressive lens.
Bruce S
@jefft452:
I also think moving Shultz was a mistake in and of itself. Ed Shultz – along with Reverend Al – provided a Progressive Populist lightning rod rather than nuanced discourse. They broke through some of the slant toward younger “educated” viewers that pervades much of MSNBC. I don’t think trying to track the younger demographic is a bad thing – but Shultz and Sharpton appeal to more traditional audiences (also Chris Matthews, but he’s a hysteric who tends to shift with the winds.)
Ed Shultz is the only MSNBC host who could walk into a bar in the midwest and spend an hour shooting the shit about hunting and fishing before a word was said about politics, at which point his beefy Midwestern populism would have a potential appeal that a Rachel Maddow for all of her good cheer couldn’t even begin to muster. And Rev. Al is the only MSNBC host who could…deliver a sermon. Which shouldn’t be underestimated in our political culture. We could use more like them – along with the earnest, smart-as-a-whip young nerds like Hayes and Maddow, nerdy profesor Harris-Perry and Harvard-educated Joy Reid (the best regular guest IMHO).
Big tent and all that….
jefft452
@Bruce S: agreed, I consider moving Ed to be part of the schedule shake-up, not just Hayes
Liquid
I think the ‘5 minutes of commercials-teaser-5 more minutes of commercials’ thing needs to die. Oh and the Oklahoma thing reminded me of the only reason I kinda like Mika.
patty \
msnbc sucks! i’ve been a democrat all my life and i want to like msnbc, i really do but joe scarborough and his arm monkey, mika make me want to start the day off with flaming dr peppers. rachel maddow is barely tolerable; the sound effects of the ancient computer typing and the page turning at the breaks are as bad as nails on a chalkboard. i like her interviewing skills so i watch her occasionally but mute it when i can tell she is about to break. chris hayes ought to try talking with his hands tied behind his back and SLOW THE FUCK DOWN!! and change his glasses. and change his voice….. moving on to long island ice teas by this time. (how the hell did he get a job anyway?) and then to finish off the night with lawrence o’donnell with his crazy opening act where all the “luminaries” are packaged a la daily show (without the talent) whereby i am heading for the bathroom for the straight razor. after listening to his sarcastic, condescending tone and who the hell knows what stunt he’s going to pull next (barney frank for senate, anyone) i’m headed back to the bathroom for a drain cleaner chaser. STOP WITH THE GODDAMNED HANDS all of the above!!!!!!! if i force myself to watch all night i feel like the guy in clockwork orange with his eyes wired open.
the only one i enjoy of the whole msnbc lineup is chris matthews. for all his faults he is entertaining as hell.
my biggest fear is that some genius is going to give alex wagner a show; thats when i’m pulling the plug for good.
Bruce S
Hate Chris Hayes and love Chris Matthews? That was a joke, right? Chris Matthews is worthless. The worst kind of Beltway hack.
mai naem
Jeezus. The ratings dropped one time. They had been increasing earlier in the year. I don’t think it’s quite the time for razor blades yet. I’ve been watching MSNBC for a long fukcing time. Have we forgotten the revolving door MSNBC where it seemed like there was a new host every month. I remember when they had Charles Grodin and John McEnroe hosting talk shows. Have we forgotten Don Imus. They’ve had so many people, when people mention somebody who used to be on MSNBC I have to dial back in my head and remember them being there e.g Soledad OBrien.
Also too, I miss Keith Olbermann and David Schuster and Dylan Ratigan. And who thought it would be a good idea to have Chris Hayes running against Bill Oreilly?
lou
I don’t watch it anymore and quite frankly, I am burned out on everything so I find myself watching the local PBS channel’s British shows lineup instead.
I do think there’s something to the point that Ed Schulz appeals to a blue-collar/populist way of thinking. I keep hearing how great Chris Hayes is, but so far, I haven’t seen it. He invites the same people Rachel Maddow et al do whenever I’ve watched. And asks the same questions or makes the same points.
Lawrence O’Donnell is the one they should have retired. Look up ‘smug’ in the dictionary and there is his face. Plus he too obviously has the hots for Krystal Ball, who doesn’t bring any cogent observations, only looks and cutesy name. O’Donnell’s drooling over her is faintly nauseating.
The the election is over and there isn’t another race for a year so I can’t get excited about politics. Yes, I know I should care. But I’m tired.
LAC
@Bruce S: I stand corrected about the reading/listening comment. But something tells me that you probably do not do either very well when it comes to others.
No one is saying that we want an Entertainment Tonight level of fandom at MSNBC. My critique of this network is the same critique of CNN, etc. That it is narrative driven and at times, as deep as a ring of water around a glass. Take for instance, the debate about healthcare. The reality was that we are were not going to get a single payer option, Yet the amount of time wasted parading the likes of Bernie Sanders, Michael Moore, the cast of DKos, etc on talk shows to bitch endlessly about something that even they knew was not going to happen on that station was staggering. Instead of a better understanding of what the law would become, we got shrieking howler monkey nonsense about scrapping it and not doing it until it was “perfect” (easy to say when you got healthcare coverage)
I don’t expect MSNBC to be a Bieber fanclub for Obama, but I do not expect it to be place where being a smirking mcdouchenuts with an agenda that does not jibe with political reality or facts is a great fit.