Not for the first time, I’m gonna outsource to Mr. Charles P. Pierce:
… [T]he hour-long address was as good an example of a president’s walking a tightrope as you ever will see. Implicit in the speech was the undeniable truth that the country and its politics and, yes, its people were complicit in the last decade of producing a reaction to the events of September 11, 2001 about which the country and its politics and, yes, its people are now in the middle of profound second thoughts…
…Let us be honest with ourselves as a political people. Had Barack Obama… run for president by divesting himself fully of the prevailing momentum from that rage and that fear that still existed in 2008, then he every likely would not have found enough people in this country to vote to make him president. We are the people who strung the tightrope on which he now walks, and on which every president after him will walk as well. That’s why half the speech defended what he’d done, while the other half tried to define the limitations of what he can do…
We will never elect a president on a platform that he will weaken the office, and that also means giving back powers only recently acquired and exercised. If that were the case, then George W. Bush would have been a one-term president. The speech today was probably the best for which we could hope. What was even more clear is that he has no intention of letting Congress off the hook, either…
And I would really like to believe that Dave Weigel is right about his final point:
… We have a divided government; Congress holds the purse strings; Congress passed the 2001 Authorization of Force in Iraq. But most discussion of foreign policy focuses on the president, the commander-in-chief. Why didn’t he close Gitmo, like he promised? Is he saying he and he alone can kill citizens with drone attacks?
At four moments in his speech today, the president pointed at Capitol Hill and asked it to move on or admit its role in the security decisions that have become so controversial…
4. “Given my Administration’s relentless pursuit of al Qaeda’s leadership, there is no justification beyond politics for Congress to prevent us from closing a facility that should never have been opened. Today, I once again call on Congress to lift the restrictions on detainee transfers from GTMO.”
Translation: The Gitmo debacle is on you. You ground me down in 2009, promising to block funding and locations for prisoner transfers, before turning around and attacking me for breaking a campaign promise.
Also, if Medea Benjamin just knew when to quit, she’d be a national treasure instead of an embarrassment to the rest of us on the Left and a bottomless source of entertainment to the Reicht.
Your opinions?
Just Some Fuckhead
Good to see the president is still evolving.
gocart mozart
Goddam Liberal Medea !
Hill Dweller
The media is more interested in Obama’s prom pictures.
Amir Khalid
I don’t know why, but when I read the name Medea I thought of Tyler Perry heckling President Obama.
A Ghost To Most
Since this is an open thread, can someone explain why there is a dedicated box for Newsmax headlines? I hope you are getting money for it, and not just doing it for lulz
The Dangerman
If Gitmo (the prison) can’t be closed, how about just closing the base and giving it to Cuba? That should get things moving.
NickT
I’d love to know what Medea Benjamin thought she was going to achieve by taking this approach.
khead
You know what’s depressing? Seeing someone post on FB that they will no longer support the Boy Scouts after the events of today.
Betty Cracker
Pierce nailed it.
Confession regarding Code Pink: I damn near joined it when it first formed — they were one of the few kicking up a fuss about what I could see was going to be a bloody catastrophe. I’m glad they’re agitating — someone needs to. But yeah, I thought Benjamin was both rude and counterproductive today, not because she spoke out, but because she didn’t listen.
Mike in NC
Angry denunciation about ‘Soft on Terror’ from Dick Cheney in 3… 2… 1…
draftmama
I completely understand Ms. Benjamin’s motives, but the stunt she pulled today was counterproductive in every which way. It pissed off everyone except the extreme left which has no interest in anything but their own narrow agenda, and alienated I would guess most of the middle/moderate left, and definitely the centrists (who are weeners anyway). And showed a complete lack of respect for the President who is stuck between a whole bunch of rocks and hard places. If she has a beef it should be with the morans in Congress – and she could start with Sen. Cruz who clearly is insane.
beltane
@NickT: Well, we’re talking about her so I guess she achieved something.
lamh35
I don’t watch TDS much (I prefer Colbert), but this Jon Stewart’s takedown of Peggy Noonan was well worth seeing (in between all his Obama scandal coverage).
It deserves a click, for the “50 Shades of Grey-Gan” graphic alone. Oh and the “Nooney Tunes” segment title was good too.
Do yourselves a solid and check out the link. Also, I can’t be the only one who found Noonan’s reading of her book (TDS played a recording) creepy as hell. She read it like some sex scene from a trashy chick lit romance rather than a work of alleged non-fiction. I felt almost dirty (and NOT in a good way) after hearing it.
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2013/05/23/peggy_noonan_take_down.html#054997a
WereBear
For heaven’s sake (all you firebaggers) the man is doing the best he can.
But you are waiting for Perfect/Nader/Jeebus.
In the meantime, nothing is getting done.
MikeJ
@khead:
Are they having the jamboree at Gitmo?
Hill Dweller
After the President mentioned congress blocking his attempts to close Gitmo, that stooge from Code Pink yelled, “Excuse me, President Obama, you are commander in chief … it’s you, sir…”.
Baud
@beltane:
I’ve never understood that theory of political activism. If people are talking about the stunt instead of the issue, then the stunt has backfired, in my opinion.
NickT
@beltane:
True, but we aren’t talking about her in particularly positive terms, which I assume would matter to Code Pink to at least some degree.
MikeJ
BTW, imagine if this para came from the US, talking about American football instead of football football:
NickT
@Mike in NC: B*gger Cheney with a red-hot rotating poker.
Patrick
@Baud:
Exactly. I had never heard of this person until today. And now she is no different to me than that idiot from dailycaller who so rudely interrupted/heckled Obama when talking about an immigration initiative.
NickT
@Mike in NC:
B*gger Cheney with a red-hot rotating poker.
different-church-lady
@NickT:
Catharsis?
WereBear
On a side note, I’m about to launch a fund drive to help pay for some blog work I had to hire.
Help the Way of Cats blog!
I’m at that freaky point wherein I am popular enough to run into bandwidth bills and optimization efforts to lower such bills…
AND YET
I’m not popular enough to make any money from ads.
Any shekels tossed in the begging bowl will be most appreciated.
For the kitties!
Anything ya’ll give will get marked on the big thermometer I’m about to go hunting down, WordPress-wise.
And I’ve posted several pleas for help for anyone with WordPress/Server experience. I’d rather give the money to a Juicer rather than the cold corporate entity who took my money last time…
ranchandsyrup
Code Pink at Gettysburg Address: WHY WON’T YOU END SLAVERY LINCOLN?!
NickT
@Mike in NC:
B.g.g.e.r Cheney with a red-hot rotating poker.
NickT
@Mike in NC:
Ferk Dick Cheney with a red-hot rotating poker.
jl
Haven’t had time to read or listen. Heard a soundbite on news from some House GOPer who said Obama announced the GWoT was over and the terrorists won.
Yeesh.
From a summary I read, looks like at least it points in the right direction. Let’s see if he follows through. To paraphrase Bogart in the Big Sleep, anyone who tries to improve the terrorism/civil liberties dilemma, the GOP will try to kick their teeth out and then kick them in the stomach for mumbling.
So, not sure Obama can do much unless he gets a better Congress, but for him to not even try to improve the situation would much worse.
A Ghost To Most
@khead:
Have the scouts repealed their opposition to those who don’t believe in sky fairies yet?
Sounds like a distinction without a difference; they are still faith-based bigots.
NickT
@different-church-lady:
Well, she managed to put the arse in catharsis, that’s for sure.
WereBear
Ramen (may we all feel the touch of His noodley appendage.)
I mean, really, isn’t the first rule of political action to press the damn nerve of those who are actually responsible for the debacle we are complaining about?
Kay
First, I didn’t listen to the speech, but on the basic question ( what to do) although I completely understand the argument that Congress SHOULD act, we all know they won’t.
They are not going to get us out of this.
That leaves the President.
Also, in our system, right or wrong, whether through Congressional abandonment or not, The President has assumed more and more (broadly) war powers/ foreign policy leeway.
That gives him a little room to do something good with it, and, again, there is no one else.
I don’t know how he does it but they have a lot of clever lawyers, and, AGAIN, no one else WILL do it.
So I think he has to.
Congress will scream but they’re full of shit, they don’t want the job. No one wants the job.
You’ll notice Bush ran away and left it.
am
@draftmama:
So agree. Kills me how elements of the left attacks it’s own and the center more than it’s actual enemies. Code Pink is a bunch of counterproductive morons.
I have a FB connection that will travel across state lines to protest Ringling Bros for elephant cruelty and posts about how zoos are immoral, but I have never seen a single post on her about habitat loss and poaching. PETA can kiss my butt, too.
Chris
@Hill Dweller:
I’m routinely driven to facepalm by the number of so-called liberals who believe that being President somehow empowers him to ignore and overrule Congress and all other centers of authority whenever it’s inconvenient, all in while complaining about abuses of executive power. FUCKING constitution. How DOES it work?
MomSense
When Bernie Sanders and 95 other Senators vote to deny funding for the transfer of detainees out of Guantanamo–I would say that the President is not to blame for the current situation.
beltane
@ranchandsyrup: Exactly. I generally have more respect for Code Pink than most people here, but they’ve really lost me this time.
Comrade Jake
@WereBear: I actually think they’re waiting for the Aaron Sorkin liberal fantasy.
WereBear
Yes to the nth power. What a bunch of drama freakers. Animals are slaves my shapely behind. They kill people’s pets who have been entrusted to them.
That’s damn low.
beltane
@Chris: There is a certain segment of the liberal community who expect Obama to be like Q from Star Trek.
West of the Rockies
@lamh35: Wow, I truly didn’t know just how horrible Noonan was (I don’t have cable).
I can tell you (based about listening to the Dennis Miller show for about five minutes — as much as I could stand), that the conservatives of this country heard an entirely different speech than the one Obama gave. Miller & co. heard only arrogance, deceit, passing the buck, and general blather. They did not hear an eloquent, candid, humorous speaker. They heard Satan.
How do we connect with the clinically insane? Reagan was evidently (in their damaged minds) all sunshine & bunnies. Obama & Clinton? Evil incarnate.
Jeremy
@Hill Dweller: Too many people in this country don’t understand how the government works. Many believe that the president has all of this power when it’s congress that controls the purse strings and passes legislation.
Many thought that Obama would be able to cure all problems with a click of his fingers. FDR and LBJ had greater majorities behind them and a republican party that was way more moderate and sane and they still were not able to push whatever they wanted. Civics should be mandatory in school.
lamh35
Can I say, I just kinda hate “organized” hecklers in general, almost no matter who is speaking? 1, because I’m usually really listening to what the speaker is saying and the heckler completely interrupts the flow, which of course is the point. More importantly though, the 2nd and main reason I hate hecklin’ is because with the nature of the crappy media we got now, it becomes more about the heckling than what the person actually said for the record. It’s how people like Rand Paul and the like can get away with saying stupid shit in speeches thanks to distraction.
BTW, I say “organized” heckling, cause being raised in the Black church, outbursts in the middle of sermons are frequent and you get used to a “well… pastor” or “amen….sister…” spontaneous outburst, I can take a little more leniently. Continuous heckling is obviously no longer spontaneous.
Comrade Jake
I can’t wait until Corner Stone comes in here and starts cursing at all of us. That will be fun.
Mandalay
Completely OT, but this is so cool…..
He took seven hours to climb the final 1,140 feet. Incredible.
But this is even cooler….
Mnemosyne
I remain extraordinarily jealous of my boss for getting free tickets to The Marriage of Figaro, especially since she doesn’t freakin’ want to go! Grr!
Patrick
@Hill Dweller:
This just floors me. People on the far left went nuts when Bush took more and more power from the legislative branch. Yet, now these same folks want Obama to do the same as Bush did.
Seriously, Obama can’t win with these people. Either way, he is worse than Bush according to them.
Roger Moore
@NickT:
Medea exposure.
Jeremy
@Chris: They complain about Obama not following the rule of law sometimes and then some liberals want Obama to break the rule of law.
Citizen Alan
@NickT:
Seeing the words “Medea Benjamin” in the newspapers. SATSQ.
nellcote
Medea Benjamin is the PETA of politics. Has she sent out a fundraising email yet?
Kay
@MomSense:
Right, he isn’t. To blame.
But in 20 years no one is going to say “Bernie Sanders didn’t close the prison”.
A President started it and a President has to end it. It sucks that the President who got us here is painting pictures in the bathroom, but I just don’t think “blame” will matter, long term.
PeakVT
@NickT: Me me me me me me me….
Ted & Hellen
@Betty Cracker:
Bullshit. You think she was rude and counterproductive because she dared to speak out against your dude. Classic Bot.
Citizen Alan
@Comrade Jake:
Nope. They’d be screaming at Jed Bartlett too.
boss bitch
Why would you doubt Dave Weigel’s point? It’s the truth. It’s what many of us have been saying for years.
Ted & Hellen
@NickT:
Really, because all the other approaches have worked so well in the last five years.
SiubhanDuinne
@gocart mozart:
Awesome.
Chris
@Comrade Jake:
As with Obama, they’d cheer for a few days when Bartlett was elected. Then they’d realize that he supported free trade, conducted air strikes and targeted assassinations when he thought it was the thing to do, and that his militant internationalism went so far that he actually put American troops on the ground in the middle of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict AND in the middle of a Russian/Chinese one.
“Bartlett is worse than Walken! He sold us out!”
Kristin
@Kay:
That cracked me up. Thanks, I needed a laugh today.
Higgs Boson's Mate
All through the day I me mine, I me mine, I me mine.
All through the night I me mine, I me mine, I me mine.
Now they’re frightened of leaving it
Everyone’s weaving it,
Coming on strong all the time,
All through the day I me mine.
– John Lennon
Jeremy
@Jeremy: sorry. Snap of his fingers.
Roger Moore
@MikeJ:
FTFY. People who pretend that Association football (i.e. soccer) is the only sport with the right to claim the name football are assholes.
A Ghost To Most
@Ted & Hellen:
You do know you don’t need to prove you are a fucking idiot every day? We remember.
SiubhanDuinne
@A Ghost To Most:
I wouldn’t mind the Newsmax Headlines box if it were a normal ad-looking ad. But it formats (at least on my iPad/Safari) eggzackly like a BJ “Recent Posts” listing, and I have to check myself again and again to keep from clicking the linx.
Todd
@Hill Dweller:
Actually, so was I. The blonde girl in the double date bore a strong resemblance to my prom date, down to the dress color. Same year, too, if I recall.
Ah, the reminiscences of youth.
lamh35
@Kay: From the speech, it’s seems that the overreach about of the Bush admin does weigh on his mind. Also from the speech, THIS President seems to want to dial back the clock, but there is only so much he can actually do with designated Presidential powers without Congress doing nothing.
BTW, Someone else at another blog I read pointed out this:
(h/t eclecticbrotha)
Anyone else notice that too?
Gravenstone
@A Ghost To Most: Yes, its a paid ad. I also look at is a view into the abyss of the wingnut mind without the dangers of actually having to read the articles.
Mandalay
@lamh35:
I am generally with you on this, but here is a notable exception where Weiner was deprived of the opportunity of hogging all the attention, and bathing in self-pity, when he resigned from Congress.
The takeaway sound bites came from the hecklers: “ByeBye Pervert!” and “Are you more than seven inches?”. The hecklers wrecked the proceedings and robbed Weiner of any dignity.
A job well done, and Weiner deserved it.
Patrick
@Ted & Hellen:
All other approaches? Can you please give me a link to where she has been heckling, or at least asking, Bernie Sanders and all the other Democrats who voted against closing Gitmo?
It is really odd – she (and I guess you) are attacking the person who is actually trying to close it. Yet, at the same time giving a completely free pass to the “courageous”people in Congress who refuses to close it. Odd…
Ted & Hellen
@draftmama:
Move to England if you want a monarch to fawn over.
In the U.S. respect for our “elected” masters is earned, not owed.
Keith G
@WereBear:
So…given the fact that you were at # 14 and there were no divisive/derisive/defamatory/ comments about Obama’s policy before then, just where were your comments focused?
gogol's wife
@Hill Dweller:
There’s a full-page ad in the NYTimes today, signed by her and such other luminaries as Cornel West, Junot Diaz, Dave Eggers, Ayelet Waldman (won’t be reading any books by those three, not that I was planning to), etc., including Benjamin, which blames Obama entirely and lets Congress entirely off the hook.
Kay
@Kristin:
Oh, he knew. What did he think was going to happen? They were going to disappear?
One of the problems with Presidential over reach is it ALLOWS Congress to abdicate. For good or ill.
They can (somewhat rightfully) say, “hey, you picked up ENEMY COMBATANTS. That’s Presidential!”
A Ghost To Most
@Gravenstone:
I hope we don’t need to actually click on it for the site to get paid; nagun duit
lamh35
@lamh35:
here’s the segment of the speech I think:
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2013/5/23/155133/069
Jeremy
@Kay: I understand but this is why people should hold those accountable. Bernie Sanders and the most liberal people in congress abandoned Obama and went along with the right in opposing closing the prison because they were scared of the politics.
I hear liberals blame Obama for the lack of a public option in the health care bill when conservative Democrats in the Senate threatened to filibuster the bill. I hear liberals till this day blame Obama for not closing GITMO when almost every person in Congress voted to clock him. I’m just saying that people should hold Obama accountable for things he actually did.
Todd
@MomSense:
I guess he could literally order the camp commandant to open the gates and let the inmates walk out to wherever, which might make about 2 dozen hackey sack playing, giant puppet wielding, drum beating hippies happy in San Francisco, but would be seen as a bad move by everybody else.
Kristin
@Kay: That’s absolutely what happened. And, then they wrung their hands about how IMPOLITE it would be to even mention that he maybe needed some of his power checked. Pretty convenient for them, I would say. No leadership whatsoever.
Sometimes, I think, “During Bush’s presidency, did we sound as insane as the wingers do now?” And, I think the answer is no. We were outraged, no doubt, but over things that were serious, not birth certificates.
WereBear
Used to be. Eighth grade. My teacher lent me a book on the two party system I still mentally reference today.
I do believe that has been dropped from the curriculum.
Comrade Jake
@A Ghost To Most: LOL
Violet
@WereBear: And there was Schoolhouse Rock. Lots of kids learned some governmental stuff from that.
nancydarling
I thought PBO handled the heckling with grace and a great deal of respect for Benjamin’s opinion and passion. She would have helped her cause more if she had shut up sooner.
I make no apologies for how I feel about Barack Obama. We are lucky to have him as president.
MikeJ
@Roger Moore: Heh. I’m constantly shouted down on imgur for pointing out soccer=association. I’m perfectly fine with people calling football soccer, but if you say football with no qualifier, you mean football football to about 5.5 billion people.
Emma
@Kay: The President can’t end it when he is forbidden by Congress to use any monies to do so. That is the law which even most Democrats voted for.
Kay
@lamh35:
I’m a traditionalist! I want 3 functioning branches!
But they won’t do it. Which leaves him.
I would never say this on domestic policy, but we leave some room on something that might be depicted (legally) as foreign policy or even “war powers”.
Again, bad situation, bad (but perhaps neccesary) solution.
Does the one overreach call for a compensatory overreach the other way?
Todd
@Ted & Hellen:
To be fair, I’ve always hated Code Pink and hippies in general. It disappoints me when their attention whore protests aren’t broken up with billy clubs, tasers and pepper spray.
Mandalay
@A Ghost To Most:
It’s amazing how frequently a poster who is attacking another poster feels the need to enlist imagined tribal support. Why not just say “I remember” rather than “We remember”?
Resorting to “we” makes you seem like an insecure wimp.
Ted & Hellen
@Patrick:
I know, how rude of the hoi polloi to interrupt their betters.
Davis X. Machina
Tweet from Eli Lake re the speech: “Said it before and will say it again. Obama talks like a comparative religion professor and acts like a Blackwater executive.”
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. By your enemies, and by your friends.
No speech not consisting of the words “Effective noon tommorrow, I resign the office of President’ will ever be adequate.
All this for a salary commensurate with the third catcher on an MLB team.
Just One More Canuck
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: George Harrison, actually
Just One More Canuck
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: George Harrison, actually
Keith G
Oh, about Code Pink.
-“Code Pink is a bunch of counterproductive morons.”
-“rude and counterproductive”
-“If people are talking about the stunt instead of the issue, then the stunt has backfired,”
Most of you above are saying about them today what my ultra conservative brother said about them in 2003. With reservations, I defended them then. So with reservations, I defend them now.
burnspbesq
@NickT:
Get a ton of richly undeserved attention?
Paula
@gogol’s wife:
Too bad. Junot Diaz and Michael Chabon are good writers.
jl
@lamh35:
Thanks for pointing that out. Got the text of the speech from you link:
” These [recent terrorist] attacks were all deadly, and we learned that left unchecked, these threats can grow. But if dealt with smartly and proportionally, these threats need not rise to the level that we saw on the eve of 9/11. ”
OK, I saw what he did there. And that is the truth. Some people did see the threats on the eve of 911, and actually some months before the eve, but an arrogant and incompetent previous administration that was fixated on ginning up a new, or reviving and old, Cold War, paid no heed. One of the worst aspects of the Obama administration, IMHO, has been not confronting and attempting to turn back the fall out that followed strongly enough.
I hope that will change.
Bruce S
I thought Benjamin did the Prez a favor – he came off looking great in the way he handled it – and it was kind of a great moment in unscripted democracy – he wove it into his narrative , handled rudeness with grace and generosity and was the winner. The performance gave the speech more power.
President Obama is an adult and doesn’t need a shield from his critics on the left – I think a lot of the hysterics are because his base has been so ineffectual in the political
struggle with the President’s true enemies who actually have power and are fucking the country (hint – NOT Greenwald et al) – it’s not much different from the ultra-left assholes who target Obama as the source of all evil – emo reflection of relative impotence.
Todd
@Emma:
Doctor Saint President Jill Stein would have decreed it be closed, you Obot sellout.
A Ghost To Most
@Mandalay:
Suck my other nose, fuckface.
Paula
Code Pink are not out to get mainstream political validation or build a constituency or pass legislation. Which is fine — civil disobedience is a long-established tradition that should be respected.
Corner Stone
@Davis X. Machina: Obama will earn $100M within the first 3 years of leaving office.
He commands the finest and most efficient armed forces the world has ever seen. Other things.
Not going to feel much sympathy.
WereBear
@Keith G: Oh, I’m a pre-emptive striker. It comes with my spidey sense!
Todd
A message to our blog hosts – the desktop version is not playing well with my ipad this evening. And we know how much the ipad version sucks ass.
Loviatar, Firebagger
– How dare we question our dear leader.
– How dear we protest his policies.
– How dare we hold him accountable for his actions.
The sad thing is you guys have become the thing you say you hold in such contempt.
———-
Obot = Republican 2.0
Bruce S
@gogol’s wife:
Christ – do you really only read literature by people who are aligned with some narrow political test? That’s pathetic.
Corner Stone
@Todd:
Good call.
burnspbesq
@Hill Dweller:
Where have we heard that theory of the unlimited scope of the Commander-in-Chief power before?
Oh, yeah, a certain law professor from Berkeley.
Medea Benjamin, meet John Yoo.
Todd
@A Ghost To Most:
Quit holding back. We’ll never reach the source of your antipathy if you don’t open up and share your feelings.
Roger Moore
@Davis X. Machina:
Less. The President makes $400K, while the major league minimum is $490K.
Jeremy
@Ted & Hellen: Well when someone is in the middle of a speech it is disrespectful no matter who it is. She would have been okay if she made her comment and allowed him to continue. But she rambled on after the initial comment and completely stopped the speech. If they didn’t kick her out he would have never been able to finish his speech.
Betty Cracker
@Mandalay: In this particular case, I suspect the “tribal support” for Ghost’s position is very real.
Kristin
@Loviatar, Firebagger: It would, indeed, be bad if anyone said any of those things.
Corner Stone
@Comrade Jake: Just because you’re a coward it’s got nothing to do with me.
Citizen Alan
@Keith G:
And I did not and do not. I thought they were ridiculous and counterproductive throughout the Bush era and they’ve only gotten worse since Obama turned out not to be Stokley Carmichael.
Paula
Damnit, why isn’t my pie filter working?
Patrick
@Ted & Hellen:
I was trying to listen to what our President had to say. I couldn’t give a rat’s ass what she had to say when she kept interrupting him. It was rude to all those people who were listening to the President. I realize you weren’t listening to his speech, but there were some of us who were.
Anne Laurie
@A Ghost To Most:
It’s for the money. Newsmax pays Cole cash, Cole uses that cash to run this blog, and in return we all make fun of Newsmax. Win-win!
Amir Khalid
@Mandalay:
But saying “we remember” does reflect the consensus opinion of Ted & Hellen among Balloon Juice commenters.
Gravenstone
A modest proposal. The president should have all the Gitmo detainees flown to DC. Then he should introduce them to the members of Congress. He could then inform said members that each and every one of them who voted to cock block his original proposal to close Gitmo was now the proud guardian of their very own detainee. They could hug them and squeeze them, even call them George if so moved. But from that moment on, they would be 100% responsible for the safety and well being of their detainee until such time as the detainee’s case was adjudicated.
I wonder if that might open the taps on monies to relocate the detainees stateside?
SiubhanDuinne
@Ted & Hellen:
Three words:
Gofuck.
Your.
Self.
lamh35
@Paula: great minds think alike, cause I was just wondering the same thing.
I assume the pie filter doesn’t work with the new upgrade
Jeremy
@Loviatar, Firebagger: So we hold Congress accountable by holding Obama accountable ??? Yeah that makes sense when Congress blocked funding for closing GITMO unanimously.
MikeJ
@burnspbesq:
Yoo only believed military power meant unlimited legal power. Code Pink think he’s Gandalf.
am
@Keith G:
I don’t know why your conservative brother would be bothered if Code Pink were counterproductive. Rationally speaking, I would think that would be a positive thing from his point of view. It does bother me, because I have progressive goals and they HINDER them.
Ted & Hellen
@Patrick:
Yes, yes, yes…poor Mr. Obama, always TRYING so very, very hard but all those mean people just keep stopping him from living up to his potential. We’ve heard this excuse for five years. Spare me.
Citizen Alan
@Bruce S:
Agreed. Benjamin’s idiocy allowed Obama to stake out a position that was clearly liberal yet obviously not “hippie leftist” because there was an actual hippie leftist on hand to bitch and moan about his speech. (And even better for Obama, that war-mongering toad Saxby Chambliess couldn’t wait a full hour before accusing the President of surrendering to terrorists.)
muddy
I’m listening to Chris Hayes discuss the speech on msnbc, and his glasses are killing me. I say I’m listening because I could no longer watch, it was so distracting. The glass reflects the lights blue and then the tortoiseshell gets lit up orange when the light hits it, and that orange light is dancing back and forth on the frame as he moves his head.
It’s terrible, why do they let him wear those? I tried to find his email addy but couldn’t, and I don’t tweet. It would be a kindness for someone to tweet him and say about the glasses.
Todd
@Citizen Alan:
Both the firebaggers and the teabaggers are disappointed that he didn’t turn out to be Nat Stokely X Muhammad Shabazz. The firebaggers because he won’t decree revolutionary awesomeness and the teabaggers because the wanted some heroic martyr porn to spark Revolution 2.0.
Anne Laurie
@NickT: I fully endorse your sentiments. For future reference, FYWP also hates the word poker, which it associates with games-of-chance spam.
Gravenstone
@Kristin: Don’t interrupt him, he’s on a roll.
Kay
@Jeremy:
Right, and I agree with you as far as “responsibility” or “blame”.
But there they are, and there is only ONE person who seems to both have the will and (maybe!) the power to do this one thing that has to be done.
It’s a fucked up, extraordinary situation.
To me, it’s actually harmful to national security because, clearly, no one wants it. It goes from executive to courts to congress, then back again. We seem to unable to deal with it. That has to be corrosive, reputationally, not to mention as a practical matter.
Kristin
@Amir Khalid: I will co-sign, except I mostly think he’s boring. I mean, Jesus Christ, get a new shtick already.
WereBear
LOL for the classic Steinbeck reference. Yes, if only.
burnspbesq
@MikeJ:
John Yoo as Gandalf? You are one sick motherfucker, sir.
Kristin
@muddy: I also think they’re too narrow. They make his face look really weird.
Roger Moore
@Corner Stone:
Assuming he doesn’t leave it in a box. Presidents have been known to do that.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I don’t doubt Medea Benjamin’s motivations, I don’t think she’s in it for publicity (attention, gratification… that’s another question) but like most purity zealots, she has no clue about the country she actually lives in
Hah! that’s maybe my favorite Bugs Bunny cartoon.
@Loviatar, Firebagger: Tell me, PUMAbagger, what would President Hillary have done about Gitmo?
Citizen Alan
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
You really can’t imagine any more productive means of moving Obama and the nation to the left on any issue other than showing up at one of his press conferences and heckling him?
Gravenstone
@Paula: Make sure you update to the latest version.
Bruce S
@Davis X. Machina:
Given the nature of the office in our era, having a guy who can straddle the chasm between a religion professor and special ops experts is probably the best we could ask for. I think Eli is offended by the reflective part of that equation.
Kristin
@Gravenstone: It’s like he has special glasses that turn words into other words!
muddy
@Kristin: I agree! Generally I don’t care what style someone likes, but these are functioning badly in his job.
Keith G
@Kay:
I am too. Maybe that’s a thing bred in and around the Great Black Swamp.
Part of my (old fashioned Progressive) traditionalism says leaders fight the good fight. Even if they don’t win, the lines have been drawn the the sides are made known – all the better for organizing and gong back at it again.
I know soft leadership has it’s place. I am just not sure where or if even all the little victories are enough to contravene the advance of some quite powerful negative forces.
As you said, history will tell us.
Redshift
@Keith G: I knew people who were involved with them in 2003 and I also defended them then. They lost me when their people essentially photobombed Valerie Plame’s testimony to Congress, distracting from an action that was serious progress for their supposed cause.
There’s a lot that’s different between 2003 and now. Criticisms that are completely invalid in one circumstance are not necessarily invalid in the present circumstances, just because they sound similar.
Ted & Hellen
@Davis X. Machina:
I know, it’s terrible that he’s treated so poorly by those who should be licking his feet, isn’t it? Perhaps he could do himself a favor, resign and hand the job to an actual liberal who wants to get some shit done.
Todd
@Ted & Hellen:
Lenin called. He’s got the patent on sabotaging the Mensheviks, and you’re infringing.
Kristin
@muddy: He is totally adorable, and I love his show, but they have to do something about those. I don’t want to be shallow, but it’s a visual medium.
Gravenstone
@WereBear: Actually, I was going for the classic Bugs Bunny, but I’ll gladly take the antecedent.
A Ghost To Most
@Anne Laurie:
So, the underwear gnome theory of blog-running:
1. Sell ad space to crazy mo-fos
2. Ignore crazy shit from crazy mo-fos
3. ???
4. Profit!!!!
Yay !
Jeremy
@Ted & Hellen: Yeah but you have ODS- Obama Derangement Syndrome so you can’t be objective. So many wingers on the left and the right have a hatred for Obama that I have never seen for any previous president. And this was as soon as he decided to run for president.
The great thing is when he is out of office you will have to find someone new to blame for all the ills in our society.
Todd
@Ted & Hellen:
Dennis Kucinich already sold you out for a Fox gig.
Keith G
@am: If all Conservatives took that tack, talk radio would be 50% quieter.
WereBear
@Gravenstone: We constantly quote Bugs Bunny around the place. Ain’t no thang.
SiubhanDuinne
@Roger Moore:
Jeez, man.
Patrick
@Ted & Hellen:
Let me guess – he should have done the bully pulpit? He should have twisted arms? He should have torn up the constitution and somehow magically come up with the funding himself?
I guess the real question is – Why are you giving Congress a free pass? Is it Obama’s race? It is a fair question considering you so blindly approve of Congress’s handling of Gitmo. Or are you
actually in favor of keeping Gitmo open?
Ted & Hellen
@Betty Cracker:
Of course you do, Betty. The imagined tribal identity and Seig Heil Obot stance is central to your schtick.
Citizen Alan
@A Ghost To Most:
Actually, it’s one step fewer if you look at it from NewsMax’s perspective.
1. Peddle rightwing drek on a left wing blog.
2. ??
3. Profit
The profit motive is pretty clear from Cole’s perspective — “dumbasses at NewsMax want to give me money for nothing. oh noes!”
Jeremy
@Kay: I agree. the situation is not perfect and very complicated.
Comrade Jake
@Corner Stone: you’re cute. I hope you stick around, because this place needs better trolls.
Patrick
@Ted & Hellen:
OK – How will your dream candidate get things done when there are 47 Republicans in the Senate who filibusters everything and a House with a Republican majority? Do tell!
Ted & Hellen
@SiubhanDuinne:
So very deeply lame.
The holocaust of the Bots is reaching its apex.
Citizen Alan
@Ted & Hellen:
Are you even real?!? I swear a good programmer could come up with a random “Obama is Hitler” quote generator that would be indistinguishable from you.
Roger Moore
@Jeremy:
Since when has being out of office prevented political opponents from blaming them for society’s ills? Republicans sill blame FDR and LBJ for plenty of stuff, and liberals are more than happy to blame Nixon and Reagan. I’m sure that Obama will be taking the blame for ruining everything for a good long time.
Comrade Jake
@Jeremy: I suspect it may have been this bad with Clinton. We just didn’t have twitter.
Suffern ACE
@Patrick: Ted and Hellen would be impressed if Obama took a big risk and closed Gitmo and dared Congress to impeach and convict.
Loviatar, Firebagger
@Todd:
Kind of makes me wonder who is Malcolm X holding Obama’s feet to the fire. You Obots sure the hell aren’t, in fact you see any attempt to hold him accountable as contemptible. Any questioning of him is only worthy of your scorn, from Greenwald to Code Pink anyone who dares question Obama is a traitor to the cause and an embarrassment to the “pragmatic” left. You guys must not realize how much you sound like the Republicans.
Remember, even Rev. King said he needed Malcolm X.
———-
Obot = Republican 2.0
jl
” Perhaps [ Obama ] could do himself a favor, resign and hand the job to an actual liberal who wants to get some shit done. ”
Biden?
Our country, how is it run?
Or maybe the compromised fascist AUMF voting Biden should resign too and let Boehner handle it. That’ll work.
Edit: BTW, who gives a damn about the heckling? It’s a free country, and people can heckle. Her voice is irritating, but compared to what? Not the most irritating thing I can imagine.
Edit2: why did I type ‘imagine’?
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Ted & Hellen:
Are you an elected member of your city council? How about your school board? Maybe I’m aiming too low, you’re a member of your state’s legislature – right?
The only thing you’ve managed to get done is shit.
Corner Stone
@Comrade Jake: Keep working at it son. Maybe you’ll achieve that milestone one day.
Although, given your limited faculties I think fart noises pretty much encompass what we can expect from you.
Comrade Jake
@Citizen Alan: cheesedick (aka Ted and Hellen) is very much a real live troll.
Kristin
@Loviatar, Firebagger: Oh, that’s cute. You’ve got yourself a little signature! Adorbs!
Kristin
@jl: Someone needs to watch Schoolhouse Rock again!
Anne Laurie
@Kay:
Truly, this situation sucks for President Obama. But he’s a very, very smart man and a constitutional scholar, so I have to assume he knew, even in 2008, that Gitmo was not going to disappear between his own election and inauguration. He’s given Congress more than four years to step up and Do the Right Thing — with predictably miserable results. Now he’s been re-elected, his place in the pantheon is secure, he’s never going to run for President again, and he’s read enough history to know that whatever happens at Gitmo is going to be blamed on him. I’m glad I don’t have to make his choices, but as the old saying goes, he knew the choices when he volunteered for the job.
Kay
@Gravenstone:
I was thinking, “just go back to basics”
Who releases prisoners? Judges. Lifetime appointment, too.
Re-indict, convict (or not) then they all get time served.
What, too easy? I got a million like that :)
MikeJ
Shit. Left for two minutes to get a beer and missed Papi driving in runs.
am
@Keith G:
And they would have gotten the Senate in 2012 instead of primarying out electable candidates. I’m all for conservatives doing it.
Comrade Jake
@Corner Stone: good doggy!
Mnemosyne
@Ted & Hellen:
Great, name one that you think should take over.
252man
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: That was actually one of George Harrison’s contributions. John didn’t even participate in the recording session.
Ted & Hellen
@Patrick:
That reminds me…of another worthless Dem, Harry Reid, who just can’t get fillibuster reform enacted because he keeps TRYING so hard, but those beastly republicans are so mean.
Jeremy
@Patrick: I think race plays a role in his/ her hatred for Obama. Could just be that the person is a left wing nut job who like the far right hates anyone in power.
I also love the fact that he/she believe that a Dennis Kucinich can get anything done with this congress when they struggle to pass funding bills to avoid government shutdowns. Dennis Kucinich would have about the same amount of success or less with this congress.
Yatsuno
: @burnspbesq: You’re just now noticing this?
ChrisNYC
@Corner Stone: Just because that’s what the Clintons did, no reason to assume that’s what Obama will do. Uzbekistan, for example, tapped out.
Redshift
@Paula:
So what do you think they are trying to do? I respect civil disobedience that has a purpose, but without that, it’s not civil disobedience, it’s just being an asshole.
I get that attracting attention to a cause is a purpose (and, as I understand it, one that has ostensibly been the purpose of Code Pink for most of their existence.) But attracting attention to Gitmo by heckling the president when he’s giving a speech focusing attention on Gitmo?
Corner Stone
@Comrade Jake: So I was pretty much right then. Fart noises are the best you can do.
Roger Moore
@SiubhanDuinne:
I’m just saying that 8 out of the 42 men who have been President died in office. I’m not wishing anything bad on Obama, but those are some tough odds.
Comrade Jake
@Mnemosyne: JOHN EDWARDS!!!!
Ted & Hellen
@Suffern ACE:
Oh, but you forget, he CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN’T close Gitmo. It just can’t be done, no way no how. They are so mean.
Gravenstone
@Comrade Jake: He’s in one of his special moods tonight, ain’t he? maybe he’ll roll over? He obviously has the “speak” command down. Its the “heel” that looks like it’ll need the shock collar.
Bruce S
Kieth Ellison is on Chris Hayes praising the President’s speech and intentions. Worried of course that the GOP will continue to block and execution will be the real test of alleged Constitutionalists on the right like Ayn Paul.
Hill Dweller
@jl: If you’re going to heckle, at least learn basic civics beforehand.
Comrade Jake
@Corner Stone: that’s better, but can you fetch? I sort of doubt it. Requires too much thinking. There’s the part where you go out to get the ball, but oh then – then you have to remember where you were before. It’s so damned hard!
Loviatar, Firebagger
I wonder if John or any of you Obots ever think of Cindy Sheehan.
I do occasionally, I feel sad that not only did she lose her son to a useless war, she also had to face abuse and contempt from those who wanted to deny her rights as an American to protest her government’s actions.
———-
Obot = Republican 2.0
Mnemosyne
@Ted & Hellen:
Great, so Harry Reid is off the list. Name at least one person who is on your list to replace Obama.
Please note that the named person needs to actually exist and not be dead or fictional.
Jeremy
@Comrade Jake: Yeah it was bad during Clinton but Obama and his family have had it much worse. The blatant racism and disrespect have been off the charts.
Chris
@jl:
That’s true.
If nothing else, it’s refreshing to hear Obama being heckled over something that’s actually a travesty and a betrayal of all principles of justice. The blame’s not very well assigned, but it’s a breath of fresh air after Benghazigate, IRSgate and APgate, not to mention every thinly disguised iteration of “but, but, but, you’re bleck!”
Comrade Jake
@Gravenstone: cat was cursing me left and right in the other thread this afternoon. Like a third grader who watched his daddy get drunk and learned all sorts of four-letter words.
Comrade Jake
@Jeremy: I’m really not sure. I just feel like now the volume on the echo chamber goes to eleven, know what I mean?
I mean, Christ, did Fox News even exist during Clinton’s presidency?
Corner Stone
@Comrade Jake: Shouldn’t you be making fart noises and shoving Cheetos down your piehole while you cheer on the deaths of innocent people?
But of course, if they’re dead then they could not have been innocent, eh Comrade?
jl
Read the speech, quickly. So since the front poster made a request.
I thought it was disappointingly weak policy on use of force and drone attack policy.
But I liked this part:
” I look forward to … efforts to refine, and ultimately repeal, the AUMF’s mandate. And I will not sign laws designed to expand this mandate further. Our systematic effort to dismantle terrorist organizations must continue. But this war, like all wars, must end. That’s what history advises. That’s what our democracy demands. ”
If Obama is going to go after that, that is start. I don’t see where he addressed the Patriot Act in the speech specifically. Maybe I don’t understand all of its specific provisions enough to spot where he might have gone after that.
Emma
I just figured out who T&H is. You know how in slasher movies there’s always a jerk that drives everyone nuts and when Chucky finally gets him everyone cheers?
Corner Stone
Keyboard Kommandos of the 101st Cheetos Division Strike Back!
jamick6000
Obama Lifts Ban On Guantanamo Transfers To Yemen
I remember going around and around with a bunch of you who said there was nothing, nothing Obama could do about the prisoners at Guantanamo cleared for release because of the evil Congress had tied his hands. You were wrong.
Keep this in mind, those of you still insisting Obama is doing the best he can, but Congress is standing in the way. (the thing to keep in mind is that you’re clueless/uninformed, etc.)
Suffern ACE
@Comrade Jake: no. There was MSNBC. Which was put out there by Jack Welch for the purpose of hounding Clinton.
Hill Dweller
@Jeremy:
Clinton was at least allowed to govern. For the most part his judicial and executive nominees were confirmed. He had some tough budget battles, but Gingrich was repulsive and one of the more self-destructive politicians in American history, which certainly helped.
Obama has faced a level of obstructionism not seen since Lincoln. The Republicans are reflexively blocking everything he tries to do. They’re also in the process of tearing down several state governments.
Mnemosyne
@jamick6000:
So a story from today about a policy that Obama changed today is proof — proof! — that people were wrong in the past?
Man, I’ve really got to get my TARDIS fixed so all of this timey-wimey stuff makes more sense.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Comrade Jake: If memory serves, when Fox launched on cable they weren’t quite so ideological. I think it was the run-up to impeachment that made them throw away any pretense of journamalism. I never watched, but back then it would have been hard for them to out rightwing Tweety, who is now head-over-heels in love with Bubba.
Betty Cracker
@Redshift: Benjamin raised some valid issues — Obama acknowledged that himself — but after the initial exchange, she was just trolling.
Jeremy
@Comrade Jake: Yeah Fox came about during the middle of the Clinton years. And I agree that the volume of the echo chamber has increased, but when the beltway press provides 90 % negative coverage (based on a Pew Study) of the President, when people are questioning the president’s “blackness”, where he was born. The racist emails and jokes about watermelon and fried chicken, the massive increases in death threats, congressmen shouting “you lie” during a SOTU (which never happened before) I can go on and on. I’ve seen it come from all corners.
Chyron HR
@jamick6000:
Oh, so you’re admitting that you were wrong when you claimed that Obama actively wants to keep people in Gitmo? How big of you.
jamick6000
@nellcote:
MAYBE SHE HAS A BOOK TO SELL!!!!
A Ghost To Most
@Betty Cracker:
Yep. PBO gave her ample opportunity to speak her piece; she just would not STFU until they dragged her out.
The Other Chuck
@lamh35: Can’t be half as creepy as Gilbert Gottfried Reads Fifty Shades of Grey
Bruce S
I think it’s interesting that a lot of the folks here who claim to support President Obama show zero respect for the point he made -with obvious sincerity – about the protestor. It was a great moment for our country – too bad so many assholes who purport to defend the President lack anything remotely approximating his depth, grace and intelligence.
MattR
@Mnemosyne:
No, but it is strong evidence that he had options available to him in the past that he chose not to utilize (Assuming of course that there was not some recent event that makes transfers to Yemen less of a risk to national security now than in the past)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
The GOP Senate caucus in those days included Wm Roth, Jeffords, Mark Hatfield, Chaffee Sr, John Warner, the dithering nitwits Snowe and Collins weren’t quite the gutless and stupid (respectively) partisan hacks they later became. That’s off the top of my head. Future Democrat Arlen Specter had a good number of Republicans on his left flank in those days.
jl
@Jeremy: I’m not sure the GOP started out with the idea of making old fashioned racism so central. They ran lots of stuff up the flagpole, including fancy mustards and body surfing to see whether they could Kerry the dude.
But, hey, look what struck such a deep chord in a certain part of the U.S.? And the GOP ran with it. No doubt about that.
Says a lot about how much work needs to be done on racism, and a lot about what the GOP has become.
Anne Laurie
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
I’m good with Medea Benjamin standing up and making a statement — that’s civil disobedience. Four minutes of ongoing hectoring after making her statement, that’s grandstanding. Got her attention, but did no good whatsoever for the cause of shutting down Gitmo, and gave her many enemies — the authoritarians on both ends of the spectrum — an excuse for dismissing anyone who questions current policy as ‘attention whores’ who are ‘reflexily anti-Obama’.
Me, I’m chaotic neutral. The only certainty in this narrative is the Trickster God… and even he doesn’t know what he’s gonna do next!
muddy
Just reading that sentence was creepy enough for me.
Baud
@MattR:
The NPR story says the risks have lessened. Or maybe Obama just gave up on finding some place else that would take them. Or both.
Loviatar, Firebagger
@jamick6000:
Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner.
Thats the frustrating thing about Obama, for the past 5+ years there have been things he could do for the betterment of the country, but he has chosen to not to. The power of the presidency will not go away just because he doesn’t use it. The next president will take full advantage of all of its power to push his policies (especially if he is a Republican).
So that begs the question; does Obama believe in Democratic policies or, as have been proven by his actions, is he no better than a 90s era Republican.
.
P.S.
Don’t hold you breath waiting for an admittance by the Obot that they were wrong about Obama, Remember to an Obot, Obama can’t fail he can only be failed.
———-
Obot = Republican 2.0
ChrisNYC
Do people even realize that Obama is doing something about Gitmo? Apparently not. That Weigel thing is nonsense, again.
Svensker
@SiubhanDuinne:
Yes! I actually clicked on one today thinking it was a DougJ post… Had to be, with that headline.
Paula
@Redshift:
I didn’t say that an act of civil disobedience was always effective or even smart. I think the concept of “civil disobedience” tends to privilege the act itself rather than the outcome.
We all have a right to set ourselves on fire, both metaphorically and literally.
Chyron HR
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
Whereas “I hate Obama” sounds nothing like what the GOP says. At all.
Jeremy
@Bruce S: Well I thought she should have made her point and allowed him to finish. The problem was that she ranted on after that and stopped him from speaking. That was the part that was disrespectful.
eemom
Heckling the President, meh. Medea’s namesake — now there was a woman not to be fucked with.
Jeremy
@jl: Good point.
Hill Dweller
@jamick6000: Obama lifted the ban in part because Yemen has new leadership who actually wants the prisoners back. Also, there hasn’t been any sort of terrorist operation coming out of Yemen recently.
The last President wanted Obama to give them half of our treasury to take the prisoners.
Paula
@Gravenstone:
Whew, thanks!
MattR
@Baud: Thanks. Had not read the stories. Was just responding based ont he comments. Definitely an important detail to know. Either way, glad to see Obama taking steps to close Gitmo.
Personally I have always thought he could have done more, but I also realize that he was put in a terrible position and many of the options availble were political suicide – and not just to him personally, but the party as a whole which would be even more damaging to America than the stain created by Gitmo’s continued existence so I don’t hold it against him.
@Hill Dweller: And thanks for fleshing it out a bit.
MomSense
I’m still digesting the President’s speech. He was constantly calling on us as citizens to reconcile our actions with our foundational values.
As I was watching him I couldn’t help but think that this is a serious, thoughtful, disciplined, superior public servant. Really I cannot think of a single Democrat or Republican who is as capable and it is a fucking crime that he has to serve with absolute fools–vicious fools like the Republicans in the House and Senate. He should get a third term for all the time these Republicans have wasted.
MikeJ
@Hill Dweller:
In part because at least one part of Yemen that had terror organizing going on is now a smoking crater.
MikeJ
Anybody know the vote number of the infamous senate action forbidding spending on closing Gitmo? I’d like to be able to reference it when talking to staffers.
Anne Laurie
@Keith G:
I’m not a big fan of celebrity memoirs in general, but I can’t wait to read the book President Obama will produce after he’s left office. He’s an excellent writer and a peerless political actor, so I’m sure he’ll have cogent explanations for a lot of the actions that are currently confusing us lesser mortals.
Just One More Canuck
@The Other Chuck: that was hilarious in a really disturbing way
Gravenstone
@MattR:
The cynic in me would like to mention … drooooooooonnnnnneeeezzzzzz.
Loviatar, Firebagger
@Anne Laurie:
Wow, four whole minutes to protest the gutting of the Bill of Rights is now considered grandstanding. Four minutes to protest torture and the evisceration of the Constitution is now an embarrassment to the “pragmatic” left.
Remember after Obama’s initial statements 4+ years ago these subjects have gotten little to no attention from the Republicans, the press or the “pragmatic” left. In fact every time it was brought up for discussion by the hippies, firebaggers, etc, we were shouted down by the “pragmatic” left and told to shut up, stop grandstanding and don’t embarrass the president.
Please tell me for future consideration what would you consider an adequate amount of time to protest the gutting of our Bill of Rights?
———-
Obot = Republican 2.0
Chris
@MomSense:
Or maybe he’s exactly where he needs to be. If only to counterbalance the effects of those fucking psychos as much as possible.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MomSense: Richard Lugar was a hard-right, partisan Republican, but at least on foreign policy he was an adult. Like the rest of them, he disgraced himself in the Bush years, but I honestly don’t think there’s a Republican left in Congress who is intellectually capable of putting policy before politics if s/he wanted to. It’s a damn shame.
gwangung
@Loviatar, Firebagger: You don’t seem particularly well informed or capable of taking an approach that’s particularly nuanced.
gwangung
@Loviatar, Firebagger: You don’t seem particularly well informed or capable of taking an approach that’s particularly nuanced.
Svensker
@Todd:
I do think he should make sure that conditions are as comfortable and as pleasant as possible. That he could order. I read somewhere that for a while there was real improvement in living conditions but then things started to get bad again. No excuse for that, at all.
Mnemosyne
@MattR:
Um, that’s kind of a big assumption to make, innit, particularly given the rush of events in the MIddle East in just the past five years?
Bruce S
@Jeremy:
I agree – but Prez handled it beautifully and made a point that transcended her tactics. I can’t imagine any other politician at that level doing other than satisfying himself with umbrage or making an uncomfortable joke. Frankly I’m glad she showed up and made things messy because it provided a totally appropriate context for the problems he laid out. This is ugly stuff and Obama gets that, which is critical. I totally support the President re drones, as example – but I’m not complacent or untroubled by it, I welcome Greenwald et al to question it, because war should never be an easy or unquestioned decision.
MomSense
@Kay:
The problem is that Congress was exceedingly clever in denying the funding for transport, imprisonment (super max, military prison) and trial. The Yemen situation is tough. I predict that this will not end well but that is a long discussion.
And even the host countries who publicly protest the detention at GTMO–do not actually want them back.
Then there is the group who can’t be prosecuted because of a combination of being tortured to the point of being incompetent and because the evidence is inadmissible due to the way it was collected. The Bush administration was certainly incompetent except at Sadism. They would have made fabulous Spanish inquisitors.
WereBear
If the Code Pink demonstrator had exhibited situational awareness, I very much doubt she would have gotten such a poor reaction from the commentariat here.
I was all for them when they were confronting members of the Bush Admin for their overt and very obvious crimes. I am less understanding when they give the exact same treatment to a politician who has shown a very different attitude; and whose speech, today, was to stake out a higher ground on that very subject.
I may be alone in this assessment, but President Barack Obama is a very rare breed of politician. He is one who speaks to voters as adults, and is about as candid as anyone’s fever dreams about his constraints and his own desires about public policy.
If that is not enough for the children among us; so be it. But I’m not going to endorse tantrums that serve no real purpose. For the love of pumpkincheesecake, if she had protested the Republican Congress who has blocked the rule of law for years now, I would be doing nothing but throwing flowers.
But that is not what she did.
Loviatar, Firebagger
@gwangung:
You have made an accusatory and derogatory remark towards me. Please explain, what have I written that is not “well informed” or lacks “nuance”.
———-
Obot = Republican 2.0
MomSense
@MikeJ:
96-0 You can get the skinny at votesmart.org
Villago Delenda Est
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
There’s got to be a fire you can find to die in, asshole. Make a fucking effort.
keestadoll
Getting so bored with all this. Hurry up Klaatu.
Yatsuno
@MikeJ: OT: text me sometime. I got a new phone but the old one died and I lost all my numbers.
Gravenstone
As a change of pace from the sturm und drang, the teenage girl who got kicked out of school for setting off an “explosive device”, her story has a nice outcome (even if not a true conclusion yet).
A retired NASA vet purchased her and her twin sister scholarships to the Space Academy.
Nothing like a bit of positive reinforcement for a curious mind.
Paula
@Anne Laurie:
I hope you’re being sarcastic, because it can pretty much be boiled down to “shit I can get passed right this moment”.
Gravenstone
@Villago Delenda Est: Hey, at least a few make it easy to identify them by embracing their roles through their choice of user names.
Loviatar, Firebagger
@Villago Delenda Est:
I’ll make the “effort” to be right behind you if you go first.
———-
Obot = Republican 2.0
WereBear
@Gravenstone: Awww. I do love that. Sounds like she will “stick the landing.”
Kay
@MomSense:
What I can’t figure out is they were doing arraignments, while everyone was screaming they were doing those at a good clip, which everyone ignored.
So they processed and released except for this last group? The arraignments were in front of federal magistrates, were they not?
Mnemosyne
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
There’s no better comedy than unintentional comedy, is there?
Yatsuno
I kan haz new thread naow plz? Kthxbai!
Elie
@Kay:
I disagree Kay. Its not HIS job alone and its worth the effort to lay it where it belongs — the Congress. You can’t make the system move in the right direction by moving it in the wrong direction. The power of the Executive in this instance, must be balanced against the power of the legislature. They obviously don’t want it, but just because they don’t want it doesn’t mean that they still shouldn’t have it.
To me this was one of his most powerful and transformative speeches. He said quite clearly that he stands by the principle of the Congress DOING ITS JOB. He has made this statement before on other issues — and its been a rough road that time too. That said — Yeah — lay it out President O. The Congress must do its job. period. We cannot have the precedent of the Executive either creating or dismissing imprisonment on US property. This should be up to the Congress. There is no way to make it up to the Congress without putting it to the Congress to decide… yes – ugly, long and confusing path. Our Congress has weak legs from years of the amplification of the power of the executive. You can’t learn to walk by sitting on your ass. They will have to learn how to walk
Hawes
I believe Congress made it illegal to use money to transfer Gitmo detainees to the United States. They can only be returned to their country of origin or another country willing to take them. His decision to send the Yemenis home is due in part to improving stability in Yemen and in part by the hunger strikes.
Obama’s moves today were deliberate, because Obama is deliberate (in the sense of moving slowly and cautiously). He’s responding both to his own inclinations to close Gitmo and pressure from the Left. The pressure from the Left on issues of civil liberties (and his DOJ screw up over subpoenas) is a good thing. If done productively. And I guess there is a place for Code Pink and street puppetry and the like.
I can criticize the actions I disagree with without damning the man the way the Manic Progressives do.
NickT
@Gravenstone:
That’s the most encouraging thing I’ve seen all week. Wonderful news – and thank the FSM that an intelligent young mind isn’t going to be wasted.
lamh35
Obama to sign Congressional Gold Medal Bill for four little girls
Jeremy
@Bruce S: I agree.
NickT
@Kay:
I see where you are coming from, but nothing says Fox News screaming 24/7 for impeachment for “secret Muslim terrorist” president louder than a unilateral move to clean up Guantanamo. I hate to imagine the national self-soiling panic and rage among the more pale-faced parts of the population.
Keith G
@Anne Laurie:
Maybe. Still…he is a human being who chose the occupation of politician. If he is like other such folk, he may be the lessor mortal.
He may be the owner of an impressive collection of political tools, some of which were ill-suited for the challenges he faced, but he could be judged later as one who could not adapt to use other strategies which were unfamiliar to him.
As we have seen again last month, all presidents have their apologists and true-believers. Sometimes we think a task is impossible until later when someone comes along and does it. Just as Obama completed some tasks left from earlier times, I am sure there soon will be another who will step up and accomplish things Obama was unable to complete.
Assuming there is a climate that still supports human life.
+3 (Hendricks and Bitter Lemon)
karen
Fixed.
Faux News
@Ted & Hellen: Shouldn’t you be felching Allen West’s dirty wingtard ass?
WereBear
FWIW:
I just finished listening to an epic (4+ hours) podcast by Dan Carlin of Hardcore History. It’s called “Prophets of Doom” and I highly recc it, and donated a bit of dough to further his cause.
The thing is, the people is in the center of the story felt they were RIGHT, in all-caps, and that it would excuse anything they did.
Not so. So not so.
MomSense
@Kay:
Here is a pretty good summary of what went down. http://jurist.org/feature/2012/01/guantanamo.php#closure The President brought Lawrence Tribe into the administration to try and deal with some of the more complicated legal matters–so there were definitely top minds assigned to the problem. One of the criticisms of the President regarding GTMO was that he didn’t make a sufficient political case for closure. I think this is pretty silly considering he talked about closing Guantanamo at almost every campaign speech, town hall, event throughout the entire 2007-08 campaign season.
How many times did we see Claire McCaskill alone sit behind him and smile while he called for closing GTMO to great applause from the audience? And yet the same day he signed the Executive Order she was on my teevee saying NIMBY.
I haven’t been able to find it, but the Eric Holder presser back in late 2010 early 2011 was stunning. I’ll keep looking for it.
Kay
@Elie:
I look at what’s happened with Congress a little differently. The President didn’t “take” power from them. They simply abandoned it. The President just picked it up.
It’s like pushing on a string at this point, with them.
I actually have a broader, loftier theory. While I know there’s always been a push-pull there, it’s structural, I think the FOCUS on the President is more modern, and comes from our abject worship of CEOs. We don’t really celebrate or value anyone below/beside CEO level. There’s no recognition of a collaborative effort, other than in sports teams.
Corner Stone
@A Ghost To Most:
She’s face to face with the most powerful person on the planet, and in front of mandatory cameras.
What else do you expect her to do? Give an impassioned 15 second commercial sound byte then retire quietly?
Corner Stone
@Anne Laurie: I don’t understand what you’re saying here.
She should have spit out her lottery numbers then shut up and sat down?
Corner Stone
Wow. “Four whole fucking minutes” ?!
God damn her for that. God damn her for taking four whole god damn fucking minutes!
She’s the reason the West fell.
Patrick
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
How about next time she heckles the people that are actually AGAINST closing Gitmo? How about next time she heckles Bernie Sanders and the other 95 senators who voted AGAINST closing Gitmo?
It is really hard to take her and her ilk seriously when she heckles the one person who is for closing the damned thing. It makes her motives really suspicious. Is she for closing it or just against Obama for some weird reason?
Betty Cracker
@Corner Stone: I think many of us would agree that Benjamin raised an important question. Where she fucked up was filibustering the answer.
Corner Stone
@Betty Cracker: In what way? President Obama is a politician. He’s been in this job for 5+ years. He has an obstinate party and a batshit opposition.
What answer could she have rightly expected?
Todd
@Patrick:
That’s OK. When she gets her wish and a member of President Santorum’s security detail splits her fucking skull open like an overripe melon with a maglite when she pulls this shit on him,, we can all remember how Obama was the real monster.
It’ll make me cheer some, anyway….
West of the Rockies
I’m Ted and Hellen and I approved this message….
My side lost! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
Betty Cracker
@Corner Stone: In the sense that she came off as a grandstanding ass instead of a person who is raising an important issue. The questions she raised were valid, but instead of speaking her piece and allowing Obama to address her concerns — even if it wasn’t the answer she wanted to hear, she kept interrupting until she was dragged out because that’s the script in her piece of performance art.
Corner Stone
@Betty Cracker: Well yeah. Just like others who have used “their art” to fight back or push back.
We’re just going to disagree on this. I, personally, don’t see being polite or diplomatic to the most powerful man on the planet as advancing any effort. Who would’ve ever known about Occupy if they had politely given a written word performance, then dispersed?
I look back sometimes at the guy who threw his shoes at GWB.
And I wonder if I would have had the balls to do that. Probably not. That dude had sack to spare.
aimai
@Paula: Its not really civil disobedience if you limit yourself to shrieking at a guy giving a speech who is trying to explain just how he is trying to do what you want him to do. Civil disobedience involves breaking a law in order to achieve a goal–such as doing the thing you need to do (voting, eating at a lunch counter, protesting) while trying to rouse public opinion to your side. I used to belong to Code Pink when they first started protesting the war but I quickly lost interest in their stupid grandstanding and acting out and up when it was not accompanied by any meaningful grassroots organizing or respect for the voting process.
Bruce S
@Betty Cracker:
I think what turned out to be important and what most people came away with was the remarkable way the President responded. She turned out to be a bit player in her own protest.
Keith G
@Corner Stone:
I remember when Act Up was criticized in the late 80s for being disruptive and not playing nice.
At times there is a need for noise and bombast. There needs to be a hell of a lot more noise from the left, not less – even if some of it is discordant. And even if some of it confronts our truly wonderful leader.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
Yes, but (as I remember it) at least Act Up was being disruptive with people and organizations who disagreed with them or were actively opposing their goals, like the Catholic Church.
What was the point of disrupting an Obama speech that was agreeing with Benjamin’s goals and moving towards them? It would be like Act Up heckling Burroughs-Wellcome when they held a press conference to announce the development of AZT because they hadn’t developed it fast enough.
Corner Stone
@Mnemosyne:
This is beyond mendaciously stupid.
JoyfulA
@Hill Dweller: I didn’t know about the new leadership in Yemen. Thanks for the information, and I hope life improves for the citizens of Yemen.
ruemara
I have to laugh at this thread and the consistent “Obama:Tool of the Republicans” from a dedicated cribbage group. I used to admire Code Pink. I think agitation is a fair use of public space and a reasonable attention getting tactic. I also think it fails when it oversteps the reason for agitation-the need to be heard-and commits the same sin of not listening, particularly when your issue is being addressed directly. Code Pink does agitation well and many of their causes are my causes. However, I’m not blind to how ineffective agitation is without true action. I’m sitting here in a public meeting. I have no dog in this fight, it’s my job, but I can say, although I do not agree with the minority position, I admire the fact that they have done the work to fight on this issue. They go to our public markets and educate the populace. They show up for civic policy meetings. They find people capable of speaking on the issues and prepare elaborate presentations that speak to all sides of the issue, with a key focus on the conclusions they want the local electeds to draw. They are formidable and I’m still not sure if I want them to win because they seem a bit anti-science to me. But I respect them. If all they did was show up with puppets and heckle, well, they’d be out the door fairly quickly and pass like the ephemeral presence of the local Occupy group. Instead, they work as teams, sit down with electeds and administrators they may disagree with and help craft legislation to fix the problem. You can agitate as much as you want, but the act of changing a political issue takes work. Code Pink had the mic, and they proved to be boorish along with ill-informed. I don’t get it. I expect better from an organization that purports to be effective. And now I have to pay attention because the meeting is about to turn contentious. But I respect and admire all these people on both sides because they are here, doing the work of crafting or changing local laws.
Foggy F Follansbye
@West of the Rockies: Wait. Dennis Miller has a show? In 2013?
Ted & Hellen
@MomSense:
Wouldn’t his time be better spent reconciling HIS actions with HIS values. WTF? He’s the fucking president. Jeezus. What horse shit.
am
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
I feel like such a fool. Thanks for showing me the light. I’m only sad that I wasted more than 30 years of my life before I finally read your comment on a blog. This was more life changing than my first love combined with the day I was born. You are a prince among princes among men. Nothing, nothing compares to you.
———-
Robot = Robot
Ted & Hellen
@Betty Cracker:
And as we know, slick profession politicians like Obama never follow a script when delivering their own pieces of performance art, some of which are known as “speeches.”
Blind Bot Betty
Ted & Hellen
@Corner Stone:
This being Menmosyne of course…
The prophet Nostradumbass
Do the people who demand that Obama circumvent Congress’ ban, and close Gitmo anyway, not remember that whole Iran-Contra thing?
NickT
@Ted & Hellen:
What happened to your pretence of being an artist, Teddykins? Funny how we’ve never seen any of your “work” isn’t it?
Corner Stone
@ruemara: Shorter:
They came in and trashed the place, and it was not their place.
So sorry, so sorry.
Loviatar, Firebagger
I see none of the Obots have chosen to address jamick6000 point that Obama anytime in the past 5+ years could have transferred a substantial number of the detainees out of Guantanamo Bay without Congressional approval. Contrary to the Obots meme thats its always the evil Congress’ fault, in this case it seems that it was Obama choice to continue Bush’s policy of eviscerating the Constitution (just like any good Republican).
Obama Lifts Ban On Guantanamo Transfers To Yemen
.
Continue on with your jihad against Ms. Benjamin and anyone else who dare questions our leader., continue on with your paeans to his greatness and his ability to maneuver in the 12th dimension. Just remember Bush had his believers who also wouldn’t countenance any questioning of their great man.
———-
Obot = Republican 2.0
Suffern ACE
@Corner Stone: I mean for crying out loud. I’m not the most activist type, and all I can think if is at least she was there at a speech on her topic if activism. I could see being flabbergasted if she were a glbt activist coming to protest last night’s immigration vote, or frustrated if a feminist calling attention to sexual assault in the military. While those are worthy causes, it wouldn’t make much sense to try to insert those issues into the topic at hand. In fact, that would be a distraction.
She seems to believe that the president can close Gitmo on his own. I don’t think he can. But I’d rather the debate be on how to close Gitmo and who should do it than having the debate that we had during the Bush administration over the utility of Gitmo for fighting terrorists. If she manages to get her position out there to more people (since it is being ignored now) and that might help move the debate a little, then she’s done something very positive.
am
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
Your argument is shallow and without merit.
Don’t you understand that the Republicans had all the same power? Or are you too busy servicing your corporate masters. Or can you not think clearly because you’re too busy composing sonnets comparing your love so fair of the miltary industrial complex to a summer’s day? Is the iambic pentameter of your hypocrisy just too much for you?
Mnemosyne
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
You’ve really got to learn how to follow the thread of a conversation, because this was asked and answered about 50 comments ago.
Death Panel Truck
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
Please stop using this phrase incorrectly. Begging the question is a logical fallacy.
Loviatar, Firebagger
@Mnemosyne:
I’m quite adept at following comment thread, however your quote does not address jamick6000 point.
Obama instituted a self imposed ban on transferring detainees from Guantanamo Bay. Obama then blamed Congress for his inability to close Guantanamo Bay. The Obots then nodded their heads yep, Congress is to blame. Those of us (hippies, Firebaggers, etc) who pointed out that no it was actually the President who created the situation were derided and shouted down.
jamick6000 and my point was Obama has always had the ability close Guantanamo Bay, be he chose not to. His reasoning for keeping it open was political and cowardly. How do I know this, he as much as admitted it today when he pointed out that we (Americans) are better than the actions that were taken post 9/11. Unfortunately, he is still hiding behind the evil Congress card.
I’m sorry, I’ve served and fought for this country and I never believed I’d see the day where torture and indefinite detainment were institutionalized. I also never believed I’d see a Democratic President acquiesce to the evisceration of the Constitution this way. If Obama won’t stand up and show political courage on this issue then I have to believe he won’t do it for any issue.
Damm, America has institutionalized torture.
Mnemosyne
Okay, a question just occurred to me as I was brushing my teeth to go to bed, so even though this thread is mostly dead, I’m going to ask it so I don’t forget to ask the next time the Gitmo situation comes up:
I remember that conditions for the prisoners at Gitmo were actually improving for a while and the hunger strikes and other protests stopped (or at least slowed way down), but then it seemed like it started to slide back downhill and the people there started being treated badly again.
My question is, does this have anything to do with the Petraeus/Panetta switcheroo a few years ago where Panetta took over Defense and Petraeus took over the CIA? Panetta took over as Sec Def in July of 2011.
This may be my own personal form of Clinton Derangement Syndrome, though, because I really frickin’ don’t like Panetta and never trusted him because he seemed like a hard-core Clintonista.
Mnemosyne
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
Really? The fact that Yemen has a new president with whom we were now able to come to an agreement about returning detainees to that country does not address jamick6000’s claim that we could have been returning detainees to Yemen any time we wanted?
You really have a problem with logic and the entire concept of time, don’t you? If we were able to negotiate a recent deal with the new president of Yemen, that means we totally could have made one with the previous president of Yemen because ….
No, seriously, I need you to fill in that gap, because I don’t understand your logic here. I realize that in your mind Bush=Obama and the two of them think and act in identical ways, so therefore the two presidents of Yemen must also be carbon copies of one another, but I can’t think of another possible reason why you would think that if we were able to broker a deal with the new president of Yemen, by definition that means we must have been able to get a deal with the previous guy because … they’re all alike?
Loviatar, Firebagger
@Mnemosyne:
You’re a good little Obot, as always you jumped immediately to the extremist strawman, which no one has said.
———
My point, I own this not jamick6000 (don’t want to put words in his mouth) was and is that Obama always had the ability to close Guantanamo Bay, but he chose not to. You assume his reasoning for not doing so was because he did not trust the Yemen government. You took that belief along with the lets blame the evil Congress card and gave Obama a pass on his continuance of Bush’s torture and indefinite detainment program.
My belief is that he did not close Guantanamo Bay because he is a political coward, he did not want to risk the possibility of a former Guantanamo Bay prisoner being picked up on a future battlefield. So he traded America’s Constitution for 4 more years.
am
@Mnemosyne:
You’re a more frequent commenter than I am. I simply figured Loviatar, Firebagger was a unsubtle troll and I was just responding to them with nonsense… but I see you’re engaging them. Are they legit? That would be too bad.
Marc
@am:
He hates Obama and spews exactly the same crap on all topics. Engagement is useless.
A Humble Lurker
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
Uh…how is it that Obama can close Guantanamo without congress again?
Also, you DO have some reading comprehension skill problems. Closing Guantanamo because Yemen? We are sending dudes from there to Yemen because they got a new head guy who’s willing to take them, unlike the last guy.
cleek
@Mnemosyne:
formerly frequent commenter, Joe From Lowell, answered this one, a couple of years ago:
it’s all about being a Protest Person. it’s the only reason to join a group like Code Pink in the first place: to be a registered, flag wavin’, recognized Protest Person.
chopper
@cleek:
hey, at least she wasn’t totin’ a puppet or anything.
chopper
@Corner Stone:
to be fair, that dude was pissed over a bush policy that killed a hundred thousand of his countrymen, displaced about a million and turned half his country into a smoking crater, which was implemented just for shits and giggles.
if you got to face someone who did something of that caliber to the US i’d expect you to throw a shoe as well.
then again, probably not.
Mnemosyne
@Loviatar, Firebagger:
In other words, because you believe so strongly that Obama is evil, you ignore facts and reality in order to maintain that belief. If we didn’t transfer prisoners to Yemen before, it couldn’t possibly be because we were unable to negotiate a deal with the previous leader because Obama is a coward, and that must always be the answer, regardless of the facts.
I’m always a little amazed at the elaborate fantasy world you’re able to construct to prevent facts and reality from disturbing your beautiful mind, but I guess it makes you happy on some level.
Harold Samson
@Hawes:
There are some sober grownups here.
ruemara
@Corner Stone: I know you’re an idiot, hun. Wish you actually comprehended what was written.
Matt McIrvin
@Bruce S:
I suppose this is how I feel about it as well. I have trouble getting more steamed about Benjamin’s behavior than Obama himself did. If he had handled it badly, he’d have deserved any headache that resulted.
LittlePig
@Todd: Both the firebaggers and the teabaggers are disappointed that he didn’t turn out to be Nat Stokely X Muhammad Shabazz. The firebaggers because he won’t decree revolutionary awesomeness and the teabaggers because the wanted some heroic martyr porn to spark Revolution 2.0.
This.
Mike Lamb
@Mnemosyne: I suspect that if Obama had, in fact, been releasing the detainees back to Yemen from the get-go, there would be an awful lot of the same people clamoring that Obama should’ve brought them to the States for a trial and that returning them to Yemen is just indefinite detention by other means…