The say anything tour continues:
In the heart of Ohio’s coal country, Republican Mitt Romney took a decidedly harsher tone toward President Obama’s energy policies Tuesday, accusing the president of “waging war on coal” and hindering job creation at a time when Americans are struggling.
“He talks about how wonderful it is and how we’re adding jobs in the coal industry and producing more coal,” Romney said while flanked by dozens of coal miners in this key battleground state. “How in the world can you go out there and just tell people things that aren’t true?”
I dunno. Are we creating more jobs in the coal industry since Obama was elected? Here are the stats for WV (all links are .pdfs):
In 2008, there were 12,445-14,428 underground coal jobs and between 5316-6312 surface jobs throughout the year.
In 2009, there were 12,687-14,335 underground coal jobs and between 4955-6346 surface jobs throughout the year.
In 2010, there were 13,457-14,734 underground coal jobs and between 4778-5324 surface jobs throughout the year.
In 2011, there were 16,290 underground coal jobs and 6046 surface jobs throughout the year.
I am no math expert, but that sure looks like that looks like there are more coal jobs now than there were a few years ago. If Mitt Romney really wants to know how in the world someone can go out there and just tell people things that aren’t true, the best person to answer that question is Mitt Romney.
And again, if you really want to know who is waging war on coal, it isn’t Obama. It’s the free market and natural gas.
Rhoda
I am just waiting for the debate.
Facts are stubborn things; they don’t change and Mittens is going to have to deal with all the lies and evasions and untruths in these debates. From Medicare, to welfare, to energy and the list goes on and on and on….
I am really looking forward to these debates.
Hunter Gathers
It’s the cookie cutter of political campaigns.
KG
well, you see John, Mitt was talking about Ohio coal… good, honest, Big 10 country, might not vote for Mitt Romeny coal. Not your worthless West Virginian, leaving the Big East for Big 12, going to vote for Romney no matter what coal. Totally different things.
danah gaz (fka gaz)
“How in the world can you go out there and just tell people things that aren’t true?”
I nominate this masterpiece as the single most dishonest thing that Romney has uttered during the campaign. Maybe even during his whole career.
/facepalm
ETA: On a lighter note, maybe it’s just me but the campaign seems to be aging Romney. Maybe he’ll stroke out before November. Also, if the campaign is aging him, there’s no way he’d last four years in the oval office. (Oh god, but then Ryan would be prez)
Mino
Be nice if natural gas, solar and wind save WV, Ky, etc from turning themselves into one big plateau.
Violet
Was in your fine state recently and my goodness, the “We Support Coal” signs are plentiful in people’s yards. Especially in the southern part of the state. Lots of “Nobama” too.
Irony Abounds
But, of course, Willard will never really be called out for his lies, and will never stop spouting them.
I dunno, I’m looking at the polls, and while Obama would probably win if the election were held today, I just have a nasty feeling that he’s going to get edged out in Florida, Ohio, Colorado, Iowa and Virginia, and that will make it difficult to win. The thought of Hollow Man and the Boy Plunderer, and their congressional henchmen(and women) gaining control of the country is enough to cause a deep depression (both psychologically speaking and financially speaking. I don’t think people truly recognize the huge shift back into the 19th century a Romney win will cause. Just need some good economic numbers coming out in September and October.
Svensker
@Rhoda:
Facts don’t matter. Watch John Sununa yell at Soledad O’Brien and tell her that analysis that Repubs don’t like cannot be impartial, it has to be Democratic.
If you don’t like the facts, the source is biased and therefore the fact becomes an opinion. Isn’t that easy?
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@Mino: “save WV, Ky, etc from turning themselves into one big plateau.”
Try as I might, I can’t think of that as a Bad Thing(tm)
/snark
Phil Perspective
And again, if you really want to know who is waging war on coal, it isn’t Obama. It’s the free market and natural gas.
That can’t be said often enough. Why people don’t understand that it’s the result of the “shale” boom I’ll never know.
KG
@danah gaz (fka gaz): I think the appearance of aging is just because of Mitt’s age. He’s 65, a lot of guys have their age hit them hard between the late 50s and mid 60s. We notice it more with presidents because we see them every day, but they are usually in that age range
EconWatcher
@Rhoda:
I have no doubt that Obama will do well in the debates, but the line up of moderators is horrible (how did team O ever agree to it?) Candy Crowley, Bob Shieffer, and the well-intentioned but hapless Jim Lehrer?
Irony Abounds
@Rhoda: If we had anything resembling a true debate I would agree with you. However, the format used just doesn’t lend itself to covering anything in depth. There just isn’t time in the 1 minute answers and 30 second rebuttals to explain that your opponent is a pathological liar who would say anything to get elected. I hope Obama flat out calls Romney a liar, but I don’t think it will happen.
jl
“I am no math expert”
Cole admits he doesn’t have the credentials to determine whether the numbers are really getting bigger.
Cole could never make pundit on TV. Unqualified. And anyway, not sure the voters want to get ‘into the weeds’ like that.
The numbers, are they bigger or smaller? How do they work? Makes my head hurt. Whew!
Hey, let’s tawk Pawleeteeks! as the Schief would say.
Robin G.
@Irony Abounds: Obama ripped McCain up one side and down the other in the 2008 debates, even in useless format. He can do the same this time.
pragmatism
Coal country is Cole country. Coincidence? If he’s around there John, release the hounds.
MattF
@Svensker: Given the way Republicans accuse people of doing the things they are doing, and since Sununu is accusing people of ‘picking things up from Democratic blogs’ we can assume he’s reading this. Hi John. Please go perform an unnatural act on a nearby orifice.
Svensker
@jl:
You are making da joke, aren’t you? Cuz, if not, you need a refresher course on Da Toobs 101.
Roger Moore
“That’s my strategy, and it’s unfair to use it against me,” he continued.
pseudonymous in nc
@danah gaz (fka gaz):
Limited opportunities to reapply Just For Men “Touch of Grey”? (He’s 65: that bouffant comes out of a bottle.)
KG
@Irony Abounds: if Romney sweeps those states, I’d be shocked. Obama has been consistently winning in Colorado (save Rassmussen who has it 3-7 points closer than anyone else). Same in Florida (only it’s Purple Strategies with it closer, and I’ve never heard of them before this year). Ohio has shown a constant Obama lead for a few months now too (again, only Rassmussen and Purple Strategies have it going to Romney). And he’s doing so well in Virgina, even Rassmussen has Obama leading. Iowa might be the only state I’d call at toss up right now.
My gut is telling me that this election is going to break for Obama big time in the next month or two
dr. bloor
@Rhoda:
Careful what you wish for. Mitt’s big-ass lies will be halfway around the world and the Gospel Truth in flyover land before Bob Schieffer finishes swallowing his tapioca…to follow up with a softball question.
Litlebritdifrnt
I am asking an honest question here because I am not in the slightest bit scientifically oriented, or geologically oriented or any such other thing but coal has to be a finite resource right? I mean it is in the ground, and if we keep digging it up what are we filling the holes with? To put it really simplistically at some point are we going to hollow out the planet by taking all the gas, oil, minerals and coal and every other resource out then what is to stop our planet collapsing in on itself? I know it is a very non-scientific question but talk to me like I am five years old. Thanks.
Steve
Do coal and oil compete with one another? Because every website I visit these days features ads with Mitt Romney promising he will approve the Keystone pipeline on day one. Is that a good thing for coal country?
jl
@Svensker: Yes, I jest.
Rhoda
@Irony Abounds: President Obama did great in 2008; and I have no doubt that he’ll not only be able to get his message across effectively but he’ll expose the mendacity that is the Romney campaign. Most of all, he’ll put to the lie the scary boogey-man that the Republican party has constructed of him. That’s the best part of the speeches, the debates, the State of the Union, or interviews, when we are given and unfiltered view of the President (especially in conjunction with a look at his opponents as happened at the Republican Retreat) he looks better and he looks NOTHING like the scary black man they make him out to be on FOX and talk radio.
trollhattan
Has he asked Don Blankenship to make an appearence with him in front of the miners? Underground was never Galtier than at Big Branch. (Using JC’s figures, they only killed 0.002% of the workforce, so no big.)
trollhattan
@dr. bloor:
Admittedly, lies and flopsweat don’t travel quite as far when paired.
Compared to Willard, Ryan will be a much more polished liar, with a significantly higher lpm rate (lies per minute).
Davis X. Machina
@Steve: The pipleline pisses off liberals. Pissing off liberals is popular in WV. And pissing off liberals is a transitive property (in addition to being The Prime Directive).
So I’m guessing, yeah.
trollhattan
Per Charlie Pierce, here’s Willard’s mining song:
Steve
@Davis X. Machina: Well, the sort of people who get their rocks off on pissing off liberals probably don’t need much encouragement to vote for Romney, do they?
PurpleGirl
@Steve: The Keystone pipeline is neutral to the use of coal. The oil that will come down by way of the pipeline is owned by Canadian interests and will be sold by them to whoever, probably Asian countries. They just want to use our refineries which have the capacity to refine the oil. That oil is not destined to be sold in the US.
Oil and coal are rivals as far as being used in generating electricity. The cost of coal depends on the grade it is, how it is mined and how far it has to travel to the final power plant. At one point in the 1980s it was much cheaper than oil and there were a number of power plants planned to use coal. Before they were all built the economics of coal use changed and several plants ended up not being built (for example, the Springerville plant #4 in AZ).
Robin G.
@trollhattan: The fact that that doesn’t rhyme or scan bothers me a lot more than it probably should.
Roger Moore
@Litlebritdifrnt:
The short answer is that in some places the holes will have to be filled in or the ground will collapse. The slightly longer answer is that it depends on which resource you’re talking about and how it’s extracted.
Coal comes from big seams, and when it’s taken out it creates big air pockets. Those have to be filled in or they’ll eventually collapse. In many cases, though, they’re far enough underground that they’ll only result in some subsidence rather than anything really drastic like a giant town devouring sinkhole.
Oil and gas are fluids and are usually found between the grains of porous rock like sandstone. If you extract the liquid or gas out of those pores, it creates lots of tiny holes that can’t really collapse because there aren’t any particles in the rock small enough to collapse into them. Also, too, in many cases they get the oil by injecting other liquids like water into the rock to force the oil out; in that case the pores in the rock are filled in as the oil is taken out, so there’s even less risk of collapse.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Litlebritdifrnt:
That would make a really cool Dr. Who episode by the way.
scav
@dr. bloor: I also rather think lie-speed is not a constant, but does vary by type of lie and the eagerness of the observer to accept it.
handy
@Irony Abounds:
Obama wins all those states.
scav
@Litlebritdifrnt: We’d have to make peace with the Silurians. Always tricky that but they would have the technology.
SatanicPanic
@Litlebritdifrnt: It’s only a tiny percentage of the earth’s crust. The earth collapsing is probably only something you should worry about if you decide to build on top of a coal mine.
g
“How in the world can you go out there and just tell people things that aren’t true?”
Good question.
Steve
@PurpleGirl: Thanks. Amazing how that pipeline has been sold as some kind of massive job-creation engine, isn’t it.
PhoenixRising
@Litlebritdifrnt: I wish that hollowing out the Appalachians would simply cause the crust to fall 300 feet toward the magma. Sadly, hollowing is no longer where coal comes from.
“Almost level, West Virginia
All our mountains, pushed into our rivers…”
Litlebritdifrnt
@Roger Moore:
Okay that makes sense, but what are they filling the holes with? Our planet is a big blue marble in space, it has finite bits of stuff with which to fill holes, when coal is burned, or oil is burned it disappears into space, it no long exists as a solid thing. So we fill the holes that we create by digging up coal with dirt or whatever dug from elsewhere. In other words are we shrinking the planet? I know this sounds childish but it appears to me that we are.
quannlace
So, it was ‘War on Religion.’ Now ‘War on Coal.’
Is ‘War on’ gonna be his default sentence for the rest of the campaign?
Ben Cisco
@EconWatcher:
That’s just GREAT.
Crowley’s so into the fake balance bit she earned a spot in our lexicon, Lehrer’s, well, like you said, clueless, and Schieffer will all but fellate Mittens on the stage.
Litlebritdifrnt
@scav:
Ha! I wondered if someone else would pick up on that episode!
PurpleGirl
@Steve: Yeah. Fact is, it creates jobs from its building but the jobs don’t last much longer than that. And that it’s been sold as doing something for our oil use, when it doesn’t. Our refineries are closer to ports from which the oil can be shipped.
g
@Svensker:
Last night I had to leave the room watching John Sununu, former 3-term governor and serial federal employee, Social Security and Medicare-eligible at 73, yell at Chris Matthews that he’d “rather have private insurance than government insurance!”
Oh, really?
Turgidson
@Rhoda:
I half-expect Obama’s opening statement (if any of the debates allow for one before the questions start) to say something to the effect of:
“You know, if even a small fraction of the things my opponent is saying about me every day were true, I wouldn’t want to vote for me either! But he’d rather distort my record and create dishonest strawmen than have a real conversation about jobs, health care, and energy policy. And that’s too bad. America deserves better.”
Ben Cisco
@Davis X. Machina:
Only in the Goatee Spock Universe.
mclaren
There you have it, ladies and gentlemen: America’s glorious economic future. Men and women bent over doing stoop labor with rock drills in coal mines.
Forward to the 19th century!
eric
At the debate, I guarantee you get this exchange re tax returns…
MR: Tax returns dont matter and are just a distraction.
BO: If they dont matter or are just a distraction, then why did your father turn over ten years and publicly argue that disclosure of 10 years worth of tax returns was obligatory on a nominee for the highest office in the United States.
(or some variant thereof)
General Stuck
Blah blah blah. Obama hates coal, he hates drilling for oil, or gas, or Unicorn Pixie Dust. And yet
Suspiciously good news, that the George Bush energy boom has finally arrived, in spite of soshulist lackey prezidentes, dashing their diabolical war on big bidness.
Give me a lobotomy, or give me death!!
Davis X. Machina
@Ben Cisco: Goatee Spock? This Goatee Spock?
jonas
@Phil Perspective: Of course Mitt’s going to be running around Pennsylvania next telling folks that Obama’s keeping them from putting up fracking wells every ten feet across the state to increase gas production — which, as you note, is precisely what’s depressing the coal industry.
SatanicPanic
@Turgidson: Careful, that would too easy to cut down to:
PurpleGirl
@mclaren: Actually most coal these days is stripped mined — the mountaintops are blasted off, the coal seams exposed and scooped out. Some attempt is made to reform the land but it isn’t mountainous anymore.
PurpleGirl
@Davis X. Machina: No, the Spock in Mirror, Mirror.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:STMirrorMirror.jpg
Turgidson
@SatanicPanic:
Good point. Though I don’t think even Mittens is cynical enough to think he could splice footage from one of the presidential debates and get away with it.
I’m almost undoubtedly wrong about that though.
Roger Moore
@Litlebritdifrnt:
No, we aren’t shrinking the planet. When we burn the coal, it goes into the air, not into space. So the solid earth gets a bit smaller, the air gets a bit denser, and the whole thing balances out to leave the planet just the same mass it ever was. Over the very long (e.g. tens or hundreds of millions of years) term, algae and plants can pull the carbon back out of the atmosphere, get buried, and form new coal, oil, and gas to replace the stuff we burned. That’s how it got in the ground in the first place.
In terms of losing land, we probably lose more to erosion washing it down rivers and into the deep ocean than we’re losing by burning fossil fuels. In both those cases, there’s a counterbalancing force that raises the land up when it has been thinned. It’s hard to imagine it, but the continents are basically floating on top of the mantle. When you remove some weight off the top, either through erosion or mining, the remainder of the continent floats a bit higher, raising the surface up closer to the level it started at.
The flip side of this is that when you deposit material, like the delta at the mouth of a river or the alluvial fan at the base of a mountain range, the crust under it will gradually sink, lowering it back to closer to the starting height. This is how it was possible to form the thousands and thousands of feet of sediment that formed some of our sedimentary rocks. There was never a basin deep enough to hold that material at one time. Instead, the land gradually sunk under the new deposits.
wrb
@Litlebritdifrnt:
The crust of the earth (the hard rocky part) is, proportionally, like the shell of an egg.
The organic layer- where coal and oil are found- atop the crust is proportionally like the fridge scum on the shell. Digging into the scum isn’t going to do anything to the integrity of the egg.
jl
Biden’s apology for the racist chains atrocity.
Sit down, and get out your smelling salts, take a deep breath. It is shocking!
Vice President Joe Biden in Wytheville, VA
http://youtu.be/cF3R6t_-ORE
Maude
@PurpleGirl:
Thank you for the info.
Do you remember Obama talking about clean coal in 2008? He said that it would cost more, but it was doable.
I think some Republicans screamed about it.
Turgidson
@jl:
Wow, Biden sure was sorry for what he said. Sorry like a FOX!
kansi
@jl: @jl:
Say it, Joe! This is freaking awesome!
Felanius Kootea
@jl: That was one hell of an apology. I hope he keeps apologizing :).
gogol's wife
@jl:
Love it!
eric
@Felanius Kootea: He is probably the most underrated politician in America.
Origuy
Some numbers: The radius of the Earth is about 6300km. The deepest coal mine ever dug, in the Czech Republic, went about 1.55km. The world’s deepest mine, at 3.9km, is a gold mine in South Africa.
As has been said, most coal mining these days is strip mining or mountaintop removal. John Prine’s song Paradise tells the story.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Roger Moore: @wrb:
Thank you both so much for your responses to my question. I am a total derp when it comes to science and geology that I need someone to walk me back on this stuff and I truly appreciate your assistance.
mai naem
John, dontcha know Rmoney’s talking about that spethal Karl Rove
methmath. Apparently, according to Republicans, even in mathematics there’s no objective right or wrong answer.SiubhanDuinne
@jl: I have to admit, early on, I was a little dubious about Biden. Not sure how much he would add to the Obama ticket, not sure he wouldnt be a little loose. But day-um if he hasn’t delivered, in spades, over and over again pretty much from Day One. Now, I loves me some Joe. MOAR JOE PLZ.
SiubhanDuinne
@pragmatism:
Who let the dogs out? Who? Who?
Harlan T. Fescue
Comrade Cole, I was going to take to your comments section to correct all of the distortions in this screed, but I could not do it justice here, so I have instead given you a thorough thrashing at my own site. It is possible that it will prove so devastating as to negatively impact your earnings potential in future endeavors, and I am sorry, but I cannot allow that to dissuade me.
Roger Moore
@Litlebritdifrnt:
If you want to get a slightly better feel for geology, I would highly recommend John McPhee’s (ETA: Pulitzer Prize winning) Annals of the Former World. There’s a huge amount of interesting material, and it’s told in an engaging style that somebody who isn’t a hardcore geologist can understand. You can’t go too far wrong by reading McPhee.
Origuy
@Roger Moore: And his brother Archie has an awesome catalog.
Roger Moore
@Origuy:
Catalog? You should visit the store in person sometime.
pragmatism
@SiubhanDuinne: He finally let seamus out. WE ARE ALL SEAMUS. Romney will take us for a ride. If that happens I am crappin all over the car and running away like Seamus did.
ChrisNYC
Best part about this is the “Obama hates coal” attack was a total last ditch effort by McCain. They pushed it hard in the last week. Eeek. Tough times in Boston, I’m thinking.
rdale
Check out the optics in the photo op of Rmoney with the coal miners:
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/romney-ohio-coal-industry-11678243
That’s some body language there, on both parts. You can tell he’s leaning away from, eeuuwww, sweaty commoners!, and they’re looking at him with barely disguised loathing.
Michelle
yes we got a million more people working (literally) below us because they can’t find any jobs above ground. great going Obama!
Tom
My sister-in-law is married to an union coal miner and she told me that all the miners at this meeting in her home town were non-union (one step up from being a scab)miners who were ordered by their employer (one Bob Murray of West Virginia coal mine disaster fame several years ago) to appear at this event. These miners had just completed their midnight shift and were ordered to shower, take their cars to a local school, and then bused to the event. Whether they were to be paid sor their attendance is unknown. Murray closed his union mines for the day of this event.