Corey Robin, reflecting on the fact that the government now employs as few workers per capita as it did in 1968, suggests that perhaps that’s a place to look for how to solve our unemployment crisis. Maybe the government should create jobs in an unemployment crisis rather than destroying them.
This, of course, is controversial. Whether the government can ever truly be said to “create jobs” is a matter of great debate. Because the reality is filled with such nuance, complexity, and higher order thinking, I thought I would do all I could to lay out the complicated dynamics and intricate aspects of governmental job creation. You should probably take notes, and don’t be ashamed to consult with a dictionary. Set aside a good chunk of time to read this post, preferably broken up into many discrete sessions, as you don’t want to strain yourself. Brew a cup of coffee. I’ll warn you that, despite my best efforts to distill all the necessary information, you might need access to some prerequisite knowledge to take this all in. Graduate level statistics wouldn’t hurt. Fair warning.
Alright, here is a step-by-step guide to how the government creates jobs:
Step One: The government hires people to perform useful tasks that benefit society.
Paul M.
That’s way too nuanced.
r€nato
my sperm donor spent nearly his entire career working in defense electronics, but if I’d ever tried to tell him that he lived off the taxpayers and gummint money, he likely would have punched me in the face.
Ash Can
Step Two: See Step One.
Doggie D
This is a very good plan. The government is not only a very prolific employer, but also a very fair employer. Government workers return the favor and provide us, the people, with outstanding service. It is hard to view a government worker and not be inspired. Sometimes I fly on airplanes simply to experience security.
SiubhanDuinne
O/T
RIP, Marvin Hamlisch. Age 68.
Waynski
Oh Freddie, don’t you know that government workers can’t possibly provide useful benefits to society. They’re all parasites, silly.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
But, you see, we’d have to have a debate about what tasks benefit society. And, as we know, small business owners build their own roads, buildings, and pay thugs to enforce contracts. What’s left for the government to do?
Instead of a useful debate, we’ll discuss how the wealthy will pee gold down on us.
c u n d gulag
Maybe if we stopped privatizing every singe feckin’ thing the government does, that might be a good first step, no?
low-tech cyclist
Hey waitasecond here Freddie, I’ve got a PhD thingy in math, but I’m not sure I can handle this level of complexity.
Could you go over it one more time, a little more slowly? ;)
Villago Delenda Est
Only if you’re a total dipshit.
The fact of the matter is, I had an income and contributed to economic activity when I was in the military. For doing work.
If you understand anything about economics at all, you realize that an income from even a sinecure, like say CEO of Bain Capital, contributes to economic activity, because you use that income to purchase goods and services, such as dressage horses and stable mucking.
This is all in the first 200 pages or so of The Wealth of Nations.
Which explains why some people think it’s controversial. They’ve never cracked open The Wealth of Nations.
EconWatcher
Does the 1968 figure for government employees include military folks, at the height of the Vietnam War? If so, I don’t think the comparison is too meaningful. I’m pretty sure our deployment in Afgh is much smaller.
Jay in Oregon
@Waynski:
Unless, of course, the government contracts out to a private entity. Then, that wasteful spending magically becomes Producto-dollars(tm)(r), enriching the lives of all who are in their mere presence.
(And if some private entity is found to be fraudulently milking the federal coffers to line their own pockets, OF COURSE the government is to blame for that as well.)
Alex S.
Also, the military…. The government buys a lot of weapons. Now, when the government ensures the existence of an arms factory, and the workers employed there support a local, say, computer hardware store, is the revenue of that hardware store tax-payer money? When exactly does public (bad!) money become private (good) money? And what about the jobs?
Cassidy
@c u n d gulag: BUt then, parasites couldn’t make a profit for doing shittier work. How dare you infringe on their FREEDOM!
terraformer
Well, that’s the problem, isn’t it?
Our 1% is not interested in anything that benefits “society”; these misanthropes would rather live in fortified compounds (which may indeed be their endgame) surrounded by shantytowns (see: Rio de Janeiro) than have any system in which anything beneficial happens to anyone but them.
Something’s gotta give.
Carl Nyberg
People don’t believe that government does provide services that make society a nicer place to live.
What new services has government provided recently? TSA?
Instead government tends to cut things people consider useful, money to state university systems, and shift the money to making-up shortfalls in pension contributions.
Liberals should be selling the idea of government doing something useful and popular. Instead liberals are left selling the abstraction of government, not a specific benefit.
The Moar You Know
@Villago Delenda Est: You’re bordering on slandering Good ‘Muricans here. Everyone knows that God-Fearing Red America has never cracked open a book of any sort at all.
danimal
Steps 2 through eleventy billion are missing. This is way too simple for Republicans to understand. Where’s the conspiracy in that?
Villago Delenda Est
Step two: the people hired use the income they receive as compensation for the tasks they perform to purchase goods and services, spreading that income around the economy as a whole.
Step three: Profit!
Oh, wait…there are some underpants gnomes around here, somewhere…
Raven
@EconWatcher: Total military and deployed are pretty different.
Rex Everything
(“Fair & Balanced” version:)
Step 2: Full on Nineteen Eighty-Four.
Carl Nyberg
Here’s what I advocate.
Give every American a voucher for $1,500 to $3,000 that can be contributed to any non-profit they feel is serving their community.
The voucher would be paid for with a transaction tax on stock and other monetary instruments (Robin Hood tax) and cuts to the military and “intelligence” spending.
Let people decide what they want in their own communities. Don’t make them align with some political boss.
Some communities are going to be really innovative.
And this will provide stimulus to the economy at the lowest levels, as opposed to stimulus through tax breaks.
Villago Delenda Est
@Raven:
Deployed military have infrequent opportunities to deploy their pay in local economies.
However, they tend to deploy a lot of pay in a short period. If you rotate them right, even the local ladies who only love you for short time make out very well indeed.
Litlebritdifrnt
Did any of you see Tweety on MJ this morning? He spoke very fast (as usual) so it was hard to make out but he said his father worked for the government for 30 years (City of Philly or something) and yet he constantly railed against “Big Government” and always said “there was too much government” and always voted republican. It is no wonder Tweety is so weird being raised around that kind of cognitive dissonance.
It is the same with all the Teatards in my local area, they are all running around with their heads on fire right now cause Cherry Point might be on the BRAC list. They can’t stand the fact that someone might be taking away their gummint cheese. This is the guy who would consistently tell his listeners that “Government doesn’t create jobs” who last night on the radio was screeching that we must fight any defense cuts because the second largest part of the economy in NC is defense spending.
Wag
Step 2
The GOP whines about the unfair advantage that government has, and insists on privatizing the entire enterprise
Raven
@Villago Delenda Est: I was responding to the comment from EconWatcher. From what I gather there is nothing like “Sin City” or “Tu Do” street in AFRAQ?
DaddyJ
FdB just pegged the sarcasm meter. Doubtless, Arthur Laffer still won’t get it.
Villago Delenda Est
@The Moar You Know:
Actually, I’m bordering on libeling them, as this is written communication.
If I gave a speech and said this, then it would be bordering on slander.
Either way, they’re fucktards. So who cares?
red dog
Just give the cities/towns money to hire back cops, teachers and firemen or is that to simple a way to complete step #1.
Villago Delenda Est
@Raven:
Oh, I know that. I was just amplifying your basic point for the benefit of those who only know the military from the movies.
slim's tuna provider
um, yeah. no one one agrees what “benefit society” means right now, and nobody trusts each other. hence, freddie’s cunning plan is DOA.
FlipYrWhig
@Litlebritdifrnt: For tea types, “government” doesn’t always mean “the government.”. Often it means “sketchy distributor of handouts to Negroes and illegals.”
stinger
According to Wikipedia, the WPA alone provided paid work for 3 million people at its peak, and 8 million over the course of 8 years. (But government can’t create jobs.)
FlipYrWhig
Also, for the government to create jobs, the people it hires do not have to do things that benefit society at all — see for instance the Keynes example of paying some people to dig holes and others to fill them in.
FlipYrWhig
@stinger: Republicans will chase their own tails on that, attempting to distinguish between “jobs” and “work.”
liberal
Those stats might be a little misleading.
For example, I don’t work for the government, but rather a government contractor.
In many/maybe most of those cases, those indeed shouldn’t count as government jobs in any manner. But in my case, and quite a few others, the contractor is just a pass-through, enabling the government to claim fewer FTEs.
Yeah, it’s on net probably a waste of taxpayer money, but in terms of jobs pretty directly created by the government, it’s misleading to say that someone in my position is in no manner whatsoever employed by Uncle Sam.
MomSense
Step 3: Profit
Oh wait did I skip a step??
liberal
@Villago Delenda Est:
That’s simply false. Income “earned” by collecting economic rents contributes nothing to the economy.
Sure, people who collect rents spend (some) of the money. But the people they collected it from have that much less money to spend.
@VividBlueDotty
@The Moar You Know: Nuh-uh. Cording to Ann Coulter, it’s Liberals who can’t read.
liberal
Step Zero: no government, then a war of all against all and no jobs whatsoever. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men…
scav
@@VividBlueDotty: The internal neural workings can be hard to understand and conceptualize if you’re entirely unfamiliar with the activity. She just means they don’t open the papery things (orientation unimportant) and nod approvingly at anything she says.
TaMara (BHF)
Having just driven 850+ miles last week, may I suggest we start with roads and bridges?
Hawes
This entire thread should be sequestered in a Quiet Room.
Villago Delenda Est
@liberal:
Ah, but the CEO of Bain Capital was paid a salary. Not a huge one, xxx,000, by all accounts. Still, more money than 93% of the population sees each year. That salary was in compensation for…lending his name to the company to give it panache, or for making paper clip chains, or for warming a leather chair behind a big desk in a corner office.
That’s legitimate economic activity.
Now as for the rents, well, those were sent offshore where they’d be safe.
And idle. Not purchasing goods or services. No guarantee that those funds would be used to spur economic growth in the US. They might have been used to build a call center in Bangalore, for all we know.
Litlebritdifrnt
Speaking of jobs
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/us-employers-post-jobs-years-16947395
US employers post the most job openings in 4 years.
Yutsano
Sigh. It’s always nice to know that when I make my car payment or go out and buy groceries I’m doing absolutely nothing but living off the gubmint teat and contributing nothing to my society. I’m sure the local restaurant is so resentful of this little factoid to the point where they refuse my business. But hey I’m just ebil gubmint worker who does nothing at work all day amirite Repubs? Jaysus.
David Hunt
@Carl Nyberg:
That is an admirable idea that I think is on the right track, but I’d be worried about a wide variety of people trying to rip off that system with fake non-profits and selling the vouchers (at a deep discount) to buy needed items amongst poor recipients. So here’s my variant: “Give every American $1,500 to $3,000.” The end. Just give them money. They will then spend that money and the economy will be stimulated. Some will give the windfall to charity, some will by stuff, some will pay on debts like their mortgage, some will simply save it.
ETA: I believe this is what Atrios calls a “helicopter drop.”
Villago Delenda Est
@David Hunt:
Only banksters and other similar types are entitled to helicopter drops.
Only people who have money have demonstrated that they can use it responsibly. For example, by responsibly parking it in the Cayman Islands.
Cassidy
Step one: Light torches, sharpen guillotines
Step two: Storm 1% compounds
Step three: Divide their money amongst everyone who isn’t a conservative. Fuck them.
Step four: Yay! First round is on me.
danah gaz (fka gaz)
“This, of course, is controversial. Whether the government can ever truly be said to “create jobs” is a matter of great debate.”
I really hope this is sarcasm. [ ETA: Noticing there’s not a “Read More” link at the bottom of the fold, I’d say it’s sarcasm. I should have finished my coffee before reading =) ]
It’s not a matter of great debate. On the one hand, you have the work of economists such as John Maynard Keynes and Paul Krugman. On the other hand you have serial grifters like Art Laffer, and easily lead know-nothings. We also have history to draw on.
There are not always two sides to a debate. Sometimes one side is just a lie.
David Hunt
@Villago Delenda Est:
I was trying to suggest something useful, not something that was politically possible. If we’re looking for that, maybe we could list aid programs like food stamps which are the most stimulative form of government spending known. Poor people can’t afford to save that money so they spend it.
Villago Delenda Est
@danah gaz (fka gaz):
OK, you’re trying to cause the Village to go all “Norman” on us, aren’t you?
Ben Franklin
The semantics of ‘created’ just muddies the water.
But, when your policies and job description include ‘killing’ the citizenry, it is clear as day.
http://nation.foxnews.com/political-ads/2012/08/07/dirty-pro-obama-ad-romney-killed-my-wife
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@Jay in Oregon:
Rachel Maddow goes over the history of how the military got so deep into privatizing everything in her excellent book, Drift. As with privatization in general, the arguments made back in the 1990s are bullshit.
Example: You have an Army base. In the old system, you just paid some PFC $16/hr (just to choose a number, I don’t know what a PFC earns) to peel the potatoes or to dig the latrine. The potatoes got peeled, the latrine got dug, and all was well. And the work was done at cost— no profit. Yay taxpayer.
In the new system, you have hire a subcontractor… and yes, the guy actually peeling the potatoes or digging the latrine now makes only $8/hr if he’s lucky. But the cost per work-unit will inevitably go up, because when there’s a private business involved, profit must be made. The Govt ends up paying $20, $30, maybe even $80/hr to get actual work that was done at $16/hr under the old paradigm, because the proverbial middle men and guys at the top must all get their taste of the sweet, sweet government largesse.
But the situation is even worse than that. There are multiple tasks to perform on the base. In the old system, I could have the same PFC peel the potatoes and then dig the latrine afterwards (preferably in that order, please). But in the new system, I need to hire two different companies. The $8/hr worker for SPUDWorx(tm), Inc. isn’t going to dig a latrine. The $8/hr worker for DISPOSAL SOLUTIONS, Inc isn’t going to peel potatoes. So now I have two bloated contracts instead of one… with all the overhead cost that entails.
In Megan-speak: The PFCs labor is fungible, and therefore can be allocated more efficiently, even though the direct hourly labor cost is more.
The end result is that Joe Taxpayer ends up paying many times as much for the same services than he did before. All because we as a society find it “immoral” that someone might make $16/hr to peel potatoes, without considering how much money we can actually save by minimizing the number of greedy middlemen between the taxpayer and the necessary service.
Villago Delenda Est
@David Hunt:
(I was snarking!)
danah gaz (fka gaz)
Step 1: ENFORCE SEC regulations. Prosecute the fraudsters who are bilking America. This includes a stop to the practice of willfully ignoring market position limits on commodity speculation.
Step 2: ENFORCE FCC regulations, including the one which would require Fox “News” to stop calling themselves a news outfit.
Step 3: Start implementing fiscal and monetary policies that would benefit America. (For example, the govt should be hiring MORE workers, not less)
Cassidy
@danah gaz (fka gaz): I like my idea better. It involves guillotines.
SatanicPanic
@Carl Nyberg: No thanks. Seriously, I have too many things to do already before I have to figure out some non-profit that isn’t a scam and isn’t going to spend money on something I don’t care about. And that’s not even getting into the hate groups that kooks in red states will give money to. Let the government do it.
As far as new services, I don’t know if I’d call it a service, but regulating health insurance(finally) is big on my list of new things the government does.
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@Carl Nyberg: Umm, no.
This would just open a glut of useless “non-profits” that were willing to bilk America, and transform useful non-profits into giant ATM machines for their principals. Can you even begin to imagine the windfall that the Catholic Church would receive? (Just for example). No thanks.
That money would be better invested in infrastructure and higher (public) education subsidies, just for example. Even mortgage subsidies for underwater homeowners would be a better use of that money.
beth
Ha ha, I’m driving my teatard relative crazy lately. She posts a pro-USA facebook post about the Mars rover and I point out it was accomplished by government employees. She posts a tribute to the hero police officer in Wisconsin and I point out he’s a government employee. She posts an I Support The Troops picture and I point out that yep, they’re government employees. I have a feeling I’m about to be de-friended soon.
Villago Delenda Est
@danah gaz (fka gaz):
The only problem with step 2 is Faux Noise is not subject to FCC regulations, as Faux Noise is not broadcast over the public airwaves. They’re on cable.
Now, you could attempt to make a very long convoluted argument that their transmission medium is as much public property as the airwaves (given that cable companies must obtain easements from governments to lay their cable, or use satellites to beam their programming to a cable company that transmits the programming via a cable), but they’re still not subject to FCC regulation.
Not that they should not be, of course, but as things stand…
scav
OT chum for those that like a dash of adrenaline with their coffee. Lloyds online fraud chief admits £2.4m fraud. Not much more in details provided, time-frame 2007-11, so it’s not as though the MOTU job-creators s have cleaned up their act. Just enjoyed the grace note of the caliber of who they’ve got in charge of their oversight and ethics.
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@Cassidy: “I like my idea better. It involves guillotines.”
LOL. Definitely. For the “feel good” factor of it, you can’t beat some good french style realignment.
Sadly, last I checked, the 1% own all of our MIC and police forces (at least by default). It would probably get quite messy.
...now I try to be amused
Benefit society? Margaret Thatcher declared that there is no such thing as society, dontcha know.
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God:
Historically, the militarization of support jobs was considered a good thing. It’s kinda hard to arm the cooks and clerks in an emergency when the cooks and clerks have the option to say “Hell no!” and they aren’t trained soldiers anyway. In the bad old days artillery drivers were civilians. Artillery didn’t redeploy under fire then.
NCSteve
Further proof that there’s no difference between “moderate liberal” and “card-carrying Stalin-loving Shining Path t’r’st Commie!” Why, Everyone Knows that gubbimint jobs are real jobs. Every dollar spent on a government employee’s salary disappears from the economy, actually reduces GDP! And, what’s worse, every dollar spent by a government employee actually reduces private sector employment.
But those are just the direct effects. The indirect effects are worse still, because every single government employee is actually in the job of actively and deliberately inhibiting the Free Market and reducing profits for our hard-working Job Creators. And I’m not just talkin about your blood-sucking byooracrats like the people at the FAA who think they’re necessary to keep people from being scared away by all those aeroplanes punching holes in the ground due to shoddy maintenance, or the FDIC with its crazy notion that people won’t put their money in banks if they’re scared they’ll fail and they’ll lose their deposits, or that dangone FCC with its crazy rationing of the electromagnetic spectrum rather than letting Free Market Forces battle it out and decide which kind of device gets to EM radiation at a given frequency.
Nope, I’m talkin’ law courts, firemen, cops, teachers, transportation department planners, the whole lot of ’em. Every government employee inhibits the Free Market.
GregB
Listen up liebruls!
Conservative dogma is based on simple truths.
1)Government doesn’t create jobs.
2)President Obama is the worst President ever because he hasn’t created enough jobs.
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@Villago Delenda Est: “The only problem with step 2 is Faux Noise is not subject to FCC regulations, as Faux Noise is not broadcast over the public airwaves. They’re on cable.”
That is a very good point. I didn’t consider that, and I should know better. I attribute that to lack of caffeine =)
meh.
David Hunt
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yeah, I know. I guess my rant hadn’t run down yet…
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@NCSteve: Tell me you are being sarcastic.
Cassidy
@danah gaz (fka gaz): Torches and chains on the door should alleviate this issue.
liberal
@David Hunt:
PeakVT
@danah gaz (fka gaz): The grammar is far too good for it to be serious.
El Cid
It’s funny how when it comes to small bidnessmen creating jobs, they create them out of nothing, but when the government begins hiring people to do stuff, suddenly the Republicans believe in the Conservative Law of Conservation of Job Energy, where jobs can not be created by government but can be destroyed by them.
Villago Delenda Est
@David Hunt:
Perfectly understandable given the idiocy we’re having to deal with.
Yutsano
@danah gaz (fka gaz): Smack your snarkometer. Methinks it needs adjusting.
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@PeakVT: I suppose you’re right. Sadly, when I boot up in the morning, my snark-o-meter is the last system to come online.
That makes navigating an early morning (at least for me) thread like this treacherous. Poe is waiting in the wings, fully prepared to bludgeon me with a hammer.
Villago Delenda Est
@El Cid:
This is because, once you are hired by the government, you no longer buy food, clothing, shelter, medical care, DvDs, cars, big screen TVs, or visit Home Depot.
You need none of those things. You become a Borg.
scav
And pardon for continuing my OT rant, WTF have we ever done to the UK to merit getting Louise Menche exported over here? Wasn’t dumping Piers Morgan on us enough to satisfy any residual grudge?
Yutsano
@Villago Delenda Est: Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. :)
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@Yutsano: I concede that. It doesn’t really work for deadpan snark until about 10am (PST) and a half a pot of coffee. It’s kind of like an old car you have to idle in the driveway for 10 minutes before putting it in gear =(
Just Some Fuckhead
That pretty much rules out a Republican congress.
Villago Delenda Est
@scav:
Frankly, I consider that to have been a wanton act of war.
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@scav, @Villago Delenda Est
Too funny you guys. =) Thanks for making me smile.
Yutsano
@danah gaz (fka gaz): Heh. I’ve had one of those old rigs. And we all know Poe’s Law has never been more true than in these trying times.
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@Yutsano: Also, lately I’ve spent far too much time over at Whirled Nut Daily*, so I’ve become accustomed to arguments like those being made in earnest. hehehe.
(*) Sometimes I just want to see what those people really believe. My conclusion is that they are every bit as crazy as I give them credit for.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@…now I try to be amused:
As I’m fond of saying, Ms. Thatcher was only half right: There’s no such thing as the Individual, either.
Jamey
Here’s the legislative agenda, Recovery Edition:
Democrats want to explore Mars
Republicans only care about your anus (and which chicken sandwich makes Jesus happy).
Hard to believe that I’ve had to explain to so many why the cost of Curiosity Mars mission is good for the economy (actually GREAT); that JPL, NASA, Boeing, etc don’t do their jobs for nothing.
Soonergrunt
@The Moar You Know: Well, decent God-Fearing Americans (C) do read one book. Only one book, but it’s everything they need to know.
The Bible. Preferably KJV.
Berial
I see this all the time and it confuses and amazes me every time.
State worker according to Political Right: MOOCHER, LAZY, LEACH!
State worker ‘retires’ comes back as consultant doing EXACT SAME JOB, but paid MORE, according to Political Right: JOB CREATOR, INNOVATOR, WORTHY OF ADMIRATION!
Difference between the two? The consultant gets payed (by taxpayer money) MORE, and can more easily be fired so a politician can give his no good brother in law the job. That’s it.
scav
@Berial: Works with the revolving door of high govt office / high business office too. One size: Incompetent! Can’t do ANYTHING RIGHT! Traitor! whoosh Deserves EVERY SINGLE PENNY of THE HIGHEST WAGE POSSIBLE because of his absolute leadership and irreplaceable skillset.
LanceThruster
For f#ck’s sake. We have a whole bunch of sh!t that needs doing. Find a way to do them by putting some people to work doing them.
It’s not f#cking rocket surgery!
[OT, thanks to NASA for threading that rocket needle on Mars – but always remember, *You* didn’t build that! – thank goodness you rocket scientists actually know what a communal effort your work is).
“If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.” — Isaac Newton
TG Chicago
@Villago Delenda Est: Freddie actually executed the rare and difficult reverse underpants gnome. And he stuck the landing.
kansi
It still raises may blood pressure when I think of Darth Cheney saying in the vp debate with Lieberman that the government had absolutely nothing to do with his enormous wealth after being SoD. And Holy Joe and the audience just laughed at the “joke.”
John M. Burt
“Government can’t create jobs because all they have is money they took from taxpayers, which should have stayed with them.”
Okay, if you want to play it that way, but in that case, corporations can’t create jobs because all they have is money they took from workers, which should have stayed with them.
HelpThe99ers
Last August, Rep. Jan Schakowski had pretty much the exact same idea: if you want to create jobs, create jobs.
A one-pager on her bill, H.R. 2914, is here.
NCSteve
@danah gaz (fka gaz): You know, I thought I was being sarcastic at the time I was writing it, but now I’m not sure. Because I’ve noticed the damnedest thing in the last few years. Time was, if someone unthinkingly believed a thing that was clearly crazy if you thought it out to its logical conclusion, there was a good chance they’d stop believing it if you took them through that process. But I’ve noticed that when you do that with one of the Fox-toxed crazy uncle email forwarding types, they’ll generally just embrace they’re highly likely to just embrace the crazy conclusion as good and just and right.
It’s like you show them that the logical conclusion of what they believe is to turn the country into a nightmarish theocracy or an apocalyptic anarchic wasteland or a world where torturing puppies is part of grade school education and they’re like “damn right! That’s just what I’m for!”
xian
@kansi: agh, don’t remind me.
dcdl
@Villago Delenda Est:
Does that mean Resistance is futile? Will we all become Borg Government Employees since we will be assimilated?