It creates jobs, though, I’m sure:
Three years ago, Gina Ray, who is now 31 and unemployed, was fined $179 for speeding. She failed to show up at court (she says the ticket bore the wrong date), so her license was revoked.
When she was next pulled over, she was, of course, driving without a license. By then her fees added up to more than $1,500. Unable to pay, she was handed over to a private probation company and jailed — charged an additional fee for each day behind bars.
For that driving offense, Ms. Ray has been locked up three times for a total of 40 days and owes $3,170, much of it to the probation company. Her story, in hardscrabble, rural Alabama, where Krispy Kreme promises that “two can dine for $5.99,” is not about innocence.
It is, rather, about the mushrooming of fines and fees levied by money-starved towns across the country and the for-profit businesses that administer the system. The result is that growing numbers of poor people, like Ms. Ray, are ending up jailed and in debt for minor infractions.
[…]In Georgia, three dozen for-profit probation companies operate in hundreds of courts, and there have been similar lawsuits. In one, Randy Miller, 39, an Iraq war veteran who had lost his job, was jailed after failing to make child support payments of $860 a month. In another, Hills McGee, with a monthly income of $243 in veterans benefits, was charged with public drunkenness, assessed $270 by a court and put on probation through a private company. The company added a $15 enrollment fee and $39 in monthly fees. That put his total for a year above $700, which Mr. McGee, 53, struggled to meet before being jailed for failing to pay it all.
“These companies are bill collectors, but they are given the authority to say to someone that if he doesn’t pay, he is going to jail,” said John B. Long, a lawyer in Augusta, Ga., who is taking the issue to a federal appeals court this fall. “There are things like garbage collection where private companies are O.K. No one’s liberty is affected. The closer you get to locking someone up, the closer you get to a constitutional issue.”
Valdivia
Isn’t the Consumer Agency set up by Warren supposed to reign in stuff like this?
EconWatcher
Debtor’s prison. In 2012. Nice.
But why stop here? Weren’t entire familes thrown into Newgate Gaol when the head of the household couldn’t pay up?
Sometimes, this country just sucks.
Cassidy
It only affects poor people. They don’t count.
Mark S.
How long till they start privatizing the police and the courts?
Felanius Kootea
@Valdivia: Good question – I’d love to know the answer to this too.
Regressing to debtors’ prisons in 2012 is really not cool.
Comrade Dread
Sweet fraking Buddha, man. That is messed up. But I knew debtor’s prison was going to come back to America eventually.
And the various governments of our nation are so beholden to the banks that it’s only a matter of time before they expand this crap for all sorts of delinquent payments. California and New York might buck the trend, but the writing is on the wall.
Rafer Janders
Look, what’s the problem here? It’s not like they’re forcing her to buy health insurance so that she’s covered in the case of a medical emergency. Now THAT would be the real infringement on liberty.
WereBear
It can’t be said too often: Why are these towns and cities so starved for funds?
Because they stopped making rich people pay taxes.
Shinobi
I almost just lost my house because I didn’t pay a $200 assessment I forgot about. I ended up having to pay $400 to clear the debt with the county before they put my house in a Tax Sale.
So, you don’t have to tell me how ridiculous this has become. It’s like a hidden tax on the middle and lower classes, while rich people just keep raking it in.
Villago Delenda Est
Well, the Dickensian dream of the “conservatives” is coming true in some places now.
Let’s have some private debtor’s prisons!
jim filyaw
Time was that one could have some hope and faith that an enlightened federal judiciary would make short work of this kind of nonsense (I’m thinking of the days of Gideon v. Wainwright and Fuentes v. Shevin). No longer. Unless your name ends in Inc. or you’re a card carrying member of the 1%, you’re not even welcome in those courts.
Shinobi
And if you need to feel super depressed today you can also read this profile of people living in their cars from Rolling Stone.
My partner has been out of work for 5 years now, I wonder when we should give up thinking that he’ll ever get a job again. /sigh
Comrade Dread
@Mark S.: I’d say it will be shortly after they succeed in destroying the the police unions.
The Red Pen
Is Gina Ray ever going to break the law by speeding again? No. Isn’t that the important thing here?
Come to think of it, if they just took her out in a rice field and shot her in the head, they’d accomplish the same result with less cost. I think Mitt should campaign on that.
Valdivia
@Felanius Kootea:
I do remember seeing something about how it would regulate debt collectors’ ability to operate with impunity in illegal ways. But can’t remember when/where I saw this. If I find it I will drop the link here.
Litlebritdifrnt
Last year the rethug State Legislature here in NC raised all of the court costs and fines. They also implemented a new fee to be tacked on to certain “improper equipment” types of pleas which are an attorney’s bread and butter. That fee was designated “The Misdemeanant Confinement Fund fee” because they KNEW that people were going to end up in jail for a simple speeding ticket.
If someone earning minimum wage gets a speeding ticket with the amount of court costs they have to pay it would be MORE than a weeks wages. Someone looking at that would just “hope that it goes away” and of course then their license gets revoked as in the story above. Even if they show up to court, plead guilty and ask for more time to pay, the damn rethugs added a fucking fee for that, tacking on another $20.00. These people are just plain evil.
arguingwithsignposts
I heard of this trend back in 2008-09. Glad it’s getting some more attention.
halteclere
Wasn’t there some issue a few years back where a bunch of tea party people screamed that having some city award a 10-year contract for garbage pickup was “soc1alism”? Yea, the tea partiers will jump all over this heavy-handed government implementation (not).
Cris (without an H)
Not only rich people, but large corporations. I live in one of thousands of towns who sees a mega-chain coming, and rather than saying “You want to build your store in our county, here’s how we expect you to pay your way” we bend over and go “oh god PLEASE let us have those $10/hour jobs you’re offering, what can we do for you sir?”
rlrr
@The Red Pen:
Come to think of it, if they just took her out in a rice field and shot her in the head, they’d accomplish the same result with less cost. I think Mitt should campaign on that.
As long as her family gets sent a bill for the bullet…
Gregory
Shaft!
(As in, they’re getting it.)
Damn right.
Dr. Loveless
Capitalism, FUCK YEAH!
rikyrah
stuff like this pisses me off
jl
@Valdivia:
That is one good question. The CFPB has jurisdiction over debt collection agencies. How that does that work, or does it work at all, when the collection agencies are working for state and local governments, and the debt is part of a legal sanction?
If pay up or the pokey is part of state and local law I think constitutional issues would come first. That situation is not the same, seems to me (IANAL) as debt collection the follows from a private contract. The CFPB is to help protect people when they enter voluntary contracts and agreements. Which is different from gummint fines.
Where is the BJ flying law squad? Help. Anyone know?
Edit: If CFPB could issue a reg, seems like would be quicker and more widespread relief than dealing with consittutional issues through the courts. Which I think would involve some kind of test case, and judicial review and then hearing at our Arbitrary Board of Control, I mean, Supreme Court, with at least three crazy people on it.
EdTheRed
@Villago Delenda Est:At last Mr. Micawber’s difficulties came to a crisis, and he was arrested early one morning, and carried over to the King’s Bench Prison in the Borough. He told me, as he went out of the house, that the God of day had now gone down upon him – and I really thought his heart was broken and mine too. But I heard, afterwards, that he was seen to play a lively game at skittles, before noon.
On the first Sunday after he was taken there, I was to go and see him, and have dinner with him. I was to ask my way to such a place, and just short of that place I should see such another place, and just short of that I should see a yard, which I was to cross, and keep straight on until I saw a turnkey. All this I did; and when at last I did see a turnkey (poor little fellow that I was!), and thought how, when Roderick Random was in a debtors’ prison, there was a man there with nothing on him but an old rug, the turnkey swam before my dimmed eyes and my beating heart.
Mr. Micawber was waiting for me within the gate, and we went up to his room (top story but one), and cried very much. He solemnly conjured me, I remember, to take warning by his fate; and to observe that if a man had twenty pounds a-year for his income, and spent nineteen pounds nineteen shillings and sixpence, he would be happy, but that if he spent twenty pounds one he would be miserable. After which he borrowed a shilling of me for porter, gave me a written order on Mrs. Micawber for the amount, and put away his pocket-handkerchief, and cheered up.
sophronia
Why don’t they just cut out the middleman and make it illegal to be poor, punishable by fines and jail time? That should sure motivate those lazy ingrates.
Valdivia
@jl:
I was wondering too if it tried to intervene in such local/state arrangements (like you I don’t know if it is within their purview) if there wouldn’t be a lawsuit about it about States Rights. Because you know this is what would end up happening.
Not to get all Marxist, but more and more I believe that we will end up with a heighten the contradictions kind of situation because of this States’ Rights mentality. States with Republican governors and legislatures will end up in a different century than those lucky enough to be ruled by people who believe in the role of government.
ETA: I see you were thinking along the same lines as me regarding the issue being before the Court.
jl
@EdTheRed:
” a penny more, security, a penny short, calamity! ”
Or something like that. No time to get the quote.
locanicole
In my town they can also impound your vehicle for certain types of traffic offenses or curfew violations. 250-500 extra dollars to “bond” your car out on top of the tow, storage fees, and of course the traffic ticket. So what happens? Can’t get to work, can’t pay the fine, don’t go to court and take a chance you’re not gonna get stopped or have any contact with the police. I carp on the cops I work with to have a little restraint before they ruin someone’s life over a speeding ticket.
Southern Beale
Meanwhile over on Wall Street, the JP Morgan exec who oversaw that $9 billion loss gets a $21.5 million golden parachute.
Gina Ray gets a bigger penalty for a speeding ticket than a guy who nearly crashed the global economy.
Pococurante
@The Red Pen:
Once you add up the fees on the cost of the bullet though…
jl
@Valdivia: The communist, Alexander Hamilton, explained why this tax and fine farming system is a bad thing for the economy. Not sure if he is Official Founder(TM) in good standing with the teabrigades, though.
Cris (without an H)
They’re busy trying to explain that 7-2=5-4
SatanicPanic
This really gets me. Around the county they’ve set up photo enforced stoplights. Fine= $500! FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS! This, to me, is the result of all this anti-tax nonsense. Instead of being able to plan your finances, you have to worry about some gotcha tax jumping out at you. Services need to be paid for, can we just agree to do it in something other than the stupidest way possible?
slag
@sophronia:
Along these lines, my favorite observation of the day:
Noblesse oblige, baby.
gbear
@Shinobi:
Shinobi, I read the first page & you’re right. Now I’m super depressed.
Villago Delenda Est
@Southern Beale:
Speeding is obviously a more grave offense that putting millions of serfs into peril.
Priorities, you know.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Cassidy:
I was just watching MSNBC where the liberals were arguing that the PPACA would become more popular as people realized that health care was being provided to people who are poor and struggling. I’d want to ask, “What country do you people live in?”
RIP, Andy Griffith. Those Ron Howard commercials were my favorite of ’08. I was gonna link to youtube, but apparently funny or die has deleted them.
NotMax
Another notch on the rancid belt of privatization:
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@Comrade Dread:
This. They don’t need to privatize the judiciary. At the Federal level, they’ve succeeded in their 30+ year plan to stack it with conservatives. At the state and local level, same thing unless you’re talking about elected judges and there, again the local Repup machine makes sure conservative judges are nominated and fully supported in their low-key campaign to get elected.
Remember, the judicial system is not your friend. That from my older brother, a former asst attorney general for the state of Arkansas.
Ben Cisco
OT, but Deadbeat Dad Rep. Joe Walsh is a dick.
Valdivia
@jl:
I am sure that if he is they found a way to misread everything he wrote and stood for.
Raven
@Ben Cisco: No, he’s a punk-ass motherfucker.
David in NY
This is standard operating procedure in the South. Douglas Blackmon (of the WSJ!) has explained it in Slavery by Another Name,” his account of how the police and criminal courts in the South were used to arrest and convict blacks (of “loitering” and the like) in the first half of the last century, imprison and fine them, and then lend them out, as prisoner-slaves, to big corporations like US Steel, which paid off their “fines” to the county at the rate of, say, $12 per month. Same old corporate BS; hardly changed at all.
I’ve just heard Blackmon talk on the subject, but not yet read the book. It sounds great.
General Stuck
Speaking of law and disorder
For measly “campaign financing” laws? The French are such girly men. In America, you can set up a world wide torture ring, and somebody will throw you a parade, or at least some special love at Fox News.
catclub
“She failed to show up at court (she says the ticket bore the wrong date), so her license was revoked.”
This also indicates that she never learned certain facts of life. If I do not show up on the right date, I call and find out what happened, and then follow up to fix it before it escalates.
She instead, was pulled over again – was she really speeding again, knowing she is driving without a license?
Couldn’t they find someone who at least _tried_ to fix it the first time, but the fees escalated anyway?
[It is quite possible that she was caught the second time in a July 4th drunk driving, stop everybody and check their license, deal, but it does not sound that way.]
murican
@Mark S.: Friedman says six more months
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2012/05/car_dealer_sues_orleans_parish.html
catclub
@David in NY: “It sounds great.”
For extremely appalling values of ‘great’.
Raven
@David in NY: Big corporations? They were doing it here 20 years ago and sending them to work on private farms.
kc
A “private probation company?” What the FUCK?
Shinobi
@gbear: It doesn’t get better, I only made it through page 3.
scav
@General Stuck: Ah, je suis tellement contente. please please please please . . .
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Raven: I’ve heard tell of lower- security prisons being set up with call centers
The Ancient Randonneur
Dolla, dolla bill y’all!
AliceBlue
What’s next? Workhouses and Poor Laws?
rdale
Reason 3,710 to never, ever, under any circumstances, set foot in the states of the old South. Texas is bad enough. I’ve never been to the south and have absolutely no plans to ever go. I don’t care if Jeebus was passing out free corndogs and moonshine, nope; not gonna happen.
Omnes Omnibus
@jl: My first blush guess is that the for-profit agencies are administering a probation system and are not “debt collectors” per se. I think it is bullshit, but I think that is the argument that would be made.
trollhattan
@SatanicPanic:
It seems all the red-light cameras are installed by private companies that administer them, handle the “billing” and share a small amount of the…uh…profits with the locale. And in California the fines are huge.
There’s a huge row over due process and burden of proof and whether the registered owner has the right to defend his/herself in court. This is probably the sole area where I agree with the Texas Republican Party Platform–red light cameras are about harvesting cash, not about public safety. (Which is a completely different conversation than whether red-light-runnin’ is dangerous–in my area it certainly is.)
Culture of Truth
That’s right. They are not debt collectors and the CFPB would likely have nothing to do with this, any more than if the police would to arrest and detain someone.
catclub
@rdale: Just a notice for all the people who thought ‘The night the lights went out in Georgia’ is fiction.
rea
Generally speaking, in all these cases, there was a time when the defendant could plead poverty and get some relief, and the defendant failed to do it.
For example, child support is set based on your income. If your income goes down, you have to report that to the Court and ask the court for a reduction. If instead you simply blow off paying support, the Court usually won’t let you cry poverty, and will send you to jail.
Similarly, if you don’t make enough money to pay your traffic fines, the Court will usually work with you to set up a payment plan you can afford. But, don’t dare wait until you’re being arrested for nonpayment to say you can’t afford to pay. You have to tell the Court that up front, or if your situation changes, go back in front of the court asap.
Nemesis
@WereBear:
Theres that, and the raping states and municipalities took in 2008 when they were told by investment firms and banks and ratings agencies that junk status exotic crap was solid. State pension funds and other investments got hit hard. Then gop govenors got elected an 2010 and started laying of public sector workers.
SatanicPanic
@trollhattan:
Exactly. I get all tea party style when I see these things. It’s the essentially random nature of them that drives me nuts. Yes, I know you’re not supposed to run red lights. But making a California stop at on a right turn at an intersection? That’s not a public danger that requires a massive fine.
different-church-lady
@Villago Delenda Est:
Could the Swiftian dream be far behind?
CaptainHaddock
Sorry, but not the most sympathetic character to illustrate the complete vileness of for-profit probation companies (what the f??).
Or am I missing something here?
Wouldn’t showing the judge the ticket with the wrong date clear everything up before it escalated?
Beyond that, driving without a license is flat out illegal.
The system sucks, for sure. But, sorry, something is not kosher about the ticket date excuse.
different-church-lady
@Southern Beale: That’s because speeding is still illegal, while crashing the global economy isn’t anymore.
JWL
Will southerners ever wise the fuck up?
Dave S.
The closer you get to locking someone up, the closer you get to a
constitutional issuefor-profit prison.FTFY
Yutsano
@JWL: Not if there’s any chance that a Ni-CLANG! might get a fair shake or even worse ahead.
burnspbesq
@WereBear:
At the local level, having rich people (or, more importantly, expensive real estate) in your jurisdiction is a necessary condition to making rich people pay taxes.
Spent much time in the rural South recently? You don’t see a lot of 6,000 square foot McMansions in East Nowhere, Alabama.
different-church-lady
This article hints at something I’ve seen very few people ever address. There are two reasons to incarcerate a person: (a) to safely separate dangerous people from the rest of society, and (b) to punish.
In the examples cited above, there is zero component of the first reason. It therefore should give us pause as to whether imprisonment is punishment far beyond what is reasonable for the crimes committed.
But our society is one that has outsized lust for punitive actions. And if a private company can monetize that lust, then they’ll stoke that lust.
different-church-lady
ADDENDUM: it would appear that there’s now a third reason: (c ): to generate revenue. This reason is illegitimate, period.
Soprano2
I know someone who got a DUI ticket a couple of years ago. And yeah, I know driking and driving is bad. I was shocked, however, to discover how this process works in MO. For one, the minute you blow into the breathalyzer and are over the limit you’re guilty (my sister’s lawyer friend says he advises all of his clients to never, ever consent to the breathalyzer). You get the license suspension and restricted license before you ever set foot in a courtroom – you’re deemed guilty just for having blown over the legal limit. Then there is the testing to see which driving class you have to attend, then the class itself. All of this is done by private contractors, who charge high fees (the only exception is the 10 hr class, which cost $100. The 20-minute test to determine which class you had to go to, however, was $270!). Then there’s the $50 for the state to put your driver’s license in an envelope and mail it back to you. OH, and the extra insurance you have to carry that does basically nothing, even though you already have insurance that covers you fully. And on and on, including paying for your own arrest. All of this is in addition to any court costs and fines that are assessed against you for the actual offense. I’ve told friends that their taxes no longer pay for the justice system, it’s all paid for by the offenders. Sadly most of them think that’s just fine, because they can’t imagine ever being caught up in this system.
PIGL
@CaptainHaddock: So you’re saying you’re fine with the bullet in a rice paddy approach, because, hey, she was fucking speeding.
The point is that peoples lives are being ruined for minor crimes in order to transfer a funds to private corporations at a few hundred dollars are pop.
I’m sure once we find a nice innocent blonde girl in the same circumstances, you will come around.
Sheesh.
The less sociopathic response is to note that the disproportionate punishment inflicted by the state is what makes the innocence, not impossible bourgeois standards of private virtue. As if you’ve never gotten away with a traffic violation in your life.
Someguy
This is terrible that probation companies would be allowed to do this.
Those jobs should be in-sourced, and the employees given good government positions, with quality benefits and a retirement plan.
That is the point, right? Because you can get rid of the companies, and the municipalities and states will still be in the business of extorting money in exactly the same way.
Unless the point is hating corporations qua corporations. In which case, carry on…
different-church-lady
@Someguy:
That’s a nice assumption of our thinking on your part. But you’re making an ass out you and Mption.
CaptainHaddock
@PIGL:
How are you jumping to some conclusion that I am a racist? I don’t give a crap if she was black, blond or whatever. We aren’t talking some petty driving violation like driving through an orange light.
1. Missing a court date is a VERY big deal. Let’s see the ticket with the wrong date. Easy to produce, unless you are a complete idiot and threw it out (about as credible as the “dog eating it”).
2. Driving without a license is illegal. End of story.
Its not like this was some person just walking down the street who was grabbed and ticketed out of the blue.
gopher2b
Two points: (1) It’s amazing to me how things like this (debtor’s prison) attempt to creep back into society. (2) Missing the court date because the ticket reflected the wrong date is 99.9% likely to be a lie. Just sayin. I don’t know about the wisdom of accruing additional fines while sitting in the slammer, but it sounds to me like she belonged in the slammer for a few days (weeks).
gopher2b
@PIGL:
Having a warrant issued for your arrest is a pretty standard response for skipping a court date. Having your license revoked is pretty much the least the court could do (besides ignoring her crime and indifference to the court).
Nonetheless, private probation companies is a terrible idea.
Someguy
@different-church-lady:
They don’t do it, if the elected officials don’t hire them to do it, pass votes in the city council, make sure there are laws on the books, and staff up the local judiciary, jails and municipal chief financial officer’s shop to handle the increased business. So you want to put it all on these corporations that just show up and start doing it…
The point being the corporations are just filling a demand.
And I’m not being optimistic here. Lockheed (or a similar defense contractor, can’t remember for sure) ran the local speed & light camera system for a couple years, and the city and Lockheed split the proceeds from every ticket issued. Recently, the City fired Lockheed. The Council saw how much money could be made, and decided they should keep 100% of the revenue. So they hired a ton of new low caliber parking police, bought new equipment and in-sourced. They did a *great* job of getting rid of the bastard for-profit corporation. They also increased the number of cameras by an order of magnitude. And you blame the company for this?
different-church-lady
@Someguy:
The fucking demand is part of what’s being criticized here. The fact that private companies are stoking the demand is just and additional layer of the evil, not the complete evil.
Rafer Janders
As a rule, it’s a good idea to never, ever agree to anything (open your bag, blow into a breathalyzer, empty your pockets, let them search the trunk of your car, etc.) the police ask you to do. Once you agree, you’ve given consent, and the evidence is admissible.
Arm The Homeless
@Valdivia: I fully expect that the Heartland(tm) will be where the corps farm their labor out to. Pardon the pun, but my only fear is that they would fuck up the food supply. This is why I am for urban agriculture.
Rafer Janders
@Someguy:
Sure. Just like the Sinaloa and Zetas drug cartels in Mexico. They’re just filling a demand.
Of course, once you let private corporations into law enforcement, it becomes in their own interest to increase demand, so you have a situation in which these agencies want there to be more crime rather than less so they can keep getting paid. The perverse incentives that this creates vis a vis society should be pretty obvious.
Rafer Janders
@Someguy:
Not at all. I also want to put it on the elected officials. A sane citizenry would vote them out of office, and then ride them out of town on a rail. There’s more than enough blame to around here.
CaptainHaddock
@Rafer Janders:
I don’t think this all starts in a vacuum. I imagine some CEO bounces the idea around with the right elected official(s), some campaign cash makes the rounds (or just old fashioned bribery, and – presto – this idea is suddenly put up for vote.
Jay in Oregon
@SatanicPanic:
On my way home yesterday I saw a pretty nasty car accident. Based on the cars involved and where the shattered plastic and spilled oil was in the intersection, my guess as to what transpired is:
1) Front car was nearing the intersection
2) Light turns yellow. (This light has stoplight cameras)
3) Driver of front car didn’t want to risk getting caught in the intersection when it turned red and braked
4) Driver of rear car wasn’t expecting the front car to slow down (or was distracted) and rear-ended him
Now, it is possible that whoever is watching the cameras or reviewing the footage may have decided that the front driver would not have been at fault and not issued a ticket. The problem is, you don’t know if that’s the case until 4-6 weeks later when the ticket arrives in the mail.
So your options are:
a) Try to beat the light and hope you don’t get caught (or worse, cause an accident)
b) Slam on your brakes and hope the guy behind you is paying attention
In Oregon, it is. Ask me how I know… :P
Ronzoni Rigatoni
First Collector: At this festive time of year, Mr. Scrooge, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute.
Ebenezer: Are there no prisons?
First Collector: Plenty of prisons.
Ebenezer: And the union workhouses – are they still in operation?
First Collector: They are. I wish I could say they were not.
Ebenezer: Oh, from what you said at first I was afraid that something had happened to stop them in their useful course. I’m very glad to hear it.
First Collector: I don’t think you quite understand us, sir. A few of us are endeavoring to buy the poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth.
Ebenezer: Why?
First Collector: Because it is at Christmastime that want is most keenly felt, and abundance rejoices. Now what can I put you down for?
Ebenezer: Huh! Nothing!
Second Collector: You wish to be anonymous?
Ebenezer: [firmly, but calmly] I wish to be left alone. Since you ask me what I wish sir, that is my answer. I help to support the establishments I have named; those who are badly off must go there.
different-church-lady
@Jay in Oregon: Traffic light technology never fails — it can only be failed.
A texting driver nearly hit you while you were in the crosswalkk? Or was it a texting pedestrian who stepped in front of you while you were making a California Stop? (Sometimes known as the South Philly Slide).
LanceThruster
For the people that contend that she F’ed up and has no one but herself to blame should consider how bloody often the people with the power F-up and more times than not, they’re actually rewarded for it.
These are rackets run by parasites meant to bleed victims dry based on the presumption that there will a continual supply of victims (new or re-bled) suffering under a slightly different scam but rigged along the same lines nonetheless.
Jules
You can still go to prison for debt in this country, even unsecured credit card debt:
muddy
@Rafer Janders:
I agree about letting them search. However in my state (and no doubt others) refusing the breathalyzer is considered automatically guilty. I don’t mean in the cop’s eyes, I mean legally. I don’t know if you can request a blood draw instead to drag it out.
I guess if you are a hard core drinker and you know your levels will be 4X the average bear it might be as well to refuse. You’d be just as guilty, but they use your number as part of the determination of what/how much counseling you’re going to do, so this could be the frugal choice.
muddy
@Rafer Janders:
I agree about letting them search. However in my state (and no doubt others) refusing the breathalyzer is considered automatically guilty. I don’t mean in the cop’s eyes, I mean legally. I don’t know if you can request a blood draw instead to drag it out.
I guess if you are a hard core drinker and you know your levels will be 4X the average bear it might be as well to refuse. You’d be just as guilty, but they use your number as part of the determination of what/how much counseling you’re going to do, so this could be the frugal choice.
Mnemosyne
@CaptainHaddock:
Missing a court date for a $179 ticket deserves being jailed for over a month and fines of over $3,000? Really?
I think you need to grow a sense of proportion.
Soprano2
In this state if you refuse the breathalyzer you get an automatic one year suspension of your driver’s license. However my sister’s lawyer friend says that if you never blow, and there isn’t any other evidence that you were legally intoxicated, he can often go to court and argue that there is no basis to take your license away, and get it back for you. That would have been cheaper than the DUI, because there was also over $1000 for a lawyer. Also, the grounds used to stop my friend were total bullshit – something like going outside the lane when turning the corner. The truth is, the cop saw my friend come out of a bar and followed until he saw a supposed violation he could use to pull the car over. Again, I know drunk driving is bad, but the penalty for a relatively low intoxication level (.1 in this case, barely above the legal limit) is, IMHO, way out of proportion to the crime. I fully expect the MADD people to begin lobbying for a nationwide legal limit of .05 in a few years. If that happens get ready to spend $5,000 if you drink two drinks and then drive, because that’ll be the result, especially if you’re female.
Also another point – there were a lot of things that happened during the stop that didn’t make it into the police report, like how my friend mentioned to the police officer that the surface used for the field sobriety test was sloped rather than level (which is was) and that my friend had a problem with his toe that made him walk a little funny. I guess the cop thought he was bullshitting, but it still should have been noted.
Linnaeus
Again, neofeudalism.
RinaX
@catclub:
Yeah, I was kind of like “Oh come on, lady!” at her particular story. Not that it excuses throwing people in jail simply for not having money to pay fees, but she’s not exactly the best example.
However, having just paid $70 to renew my tag for one year, I can only continue to be grateful to have good health and having hung onto my job during the crisis. *knock on wood*
Stentor
@Cris (without an H): Don’t forget to tongue the balls while you’re licking the shaft.
rea
@Soprano2: Scientific studies done back when they first made drunk driving illegal showed that peoples’s ability to drive gets noticably impaired at .12 or so. The legal limit is now .08.
In the statutory scheme I’m familiar with, you have to take a PBT at the scene, and/or a breathalyzer at station house, if the cop had reasonable grounds to believe you’ve been drinking and driving. That usually means they’ve administered a battery of field sobriety tests, ordinarily a horizontal gaze nystagmus test and some others (and you know I do these cases professionally, because I can spell nystagmus).
Because you implicitly agree to being tested by driving, they can order you to take the PBT and/or the breathalyzer, and there are serious drivers’ license sanctions if you refuse. But refusal doesn’t get you off the hook for drunk driving–they’ll get a warrant for a blood draw, and they also by that point usually have other evidence in the form of failed field sobriety tests (usually administered on camera–although sometimes that also shows the cops screwing up).
In maybe one case in ten, there will be a police screwup somewhere that gives the defendant an arguable issue-things like bad stops, misadminstered field sobriety tests, bad maintenance records for the breathalyzer. Of course, saying there is an arguable issue is very far from saying there’s a winning issue.
BruinKid
Hey, Rachel (or rather, Ezra Klein sitting in for Rachel) is covering this topic right now on the show, talking with Thomas Giovanni from the Brennan Center for Justice about this problem.
AA+ Bonds
So what are you gonna do about it, revolt or let the fascists fuck you
AA+ Bonds
I think many liberals will comfort each other with the words spoken by a charming young Linda Blair in 1973: “Let Jesus fuck you. Let him fuck you.”