One of al-Qaida’s top strategists, Abu Yahya al-Libi, may have been killed in a drone strike in north-west Pakistan, according to intelligence officials. […]
Some US officials describe Libi, whose real name is Mohamed Hassan Qaid, as number two to leader Ayman al Zawahri, the former Egyptian doctor who took over al-Qaida after Bin Laden’s death.
It’s kind of interesting that the Guardian positions this as its top story at the moment, while the Times buries it and the Post has it in the middle of their page. Both of those papers are leading with news about the European economy. There’s nothing like focusing on other people’s troubles to help you forget your own.
The Guardian has a good round-up of the relationship between Pakistan and the US and other NATO allies, and our use of drones in Pakistan, if you want to catch up on the smell of that shitpile.
blahblah
It’s either a huge conspiracy, or nobody gives a fuck any more because bin Laden is dead.
All of those #2’s killed were politicized so people didn’t think the last administration was just jerking off instead of killing terrorists, that’s what I think.
They were making hay out of what they could because they couldn’t manage to shoot bin Laden in the eye like Obama did.
Baud
Say what you want about Obama’s policies, he really has made it difficult for the GOP to go after him as being “soft on terror.” They’ll say it, but it really won’t have any resonance with anyone but the 27%.
lol
Can’t wait for the Greenwald piece describing these guys as anti-war journalist bloggers that Obama assassinated because they were getting too close to The Truth and that instead of going after Al Qaeda, progressives should be embracing them as ideological allies.
gnomedad
And now, of course, Obama will be stealing credit from these brave robots.
amk
Cue greenwald-cole mutual
jerkwank fest ? You betcha.Baud
@gnomedad: Everyone knows it’s Mitt who should get the credit.
cat48
WashPost said he was Bin Laden’s Deputy for several years.
arguingwithsignposts
Are there any #3s in al-Qaida?
rlrr
I guess it’s some kind of progress. I seem to remember during the Bush years it was always a number 3 getting taken out…
Villago Delenda Est
@Baud:
OvenMitt? Hell no. The deserting coward should get the credit. vonRumsfailed will tell you that.
some guy
Extra-Judicial Killings, hooray. the quicker the US military becomes the IDF the better for all involved.
Raven
@some guy: I hope the scumbag saw it coming so he didn’t just go up in a puff of smoke.
Ash Can
Deleted – wrong thread – need coffee.
arguingwithsignposts
@some guy: are you just stupid or what? All military killings are extra-judicial.
Raven
@rlrr: @rlrr: Two can be as bad as one
It’s the loneliest number since the number one
Raven
@arguingwithsignposts: Do you read the Chronicle of Higher ED?
arguingwithsignposts
@Raven: I try not to gaze at my navel that hard.
Omnes Omnibus
@some guy: Assuming arguendo that this guy was who the government says he was, how would you suggest that the US proceed against him? Do you think that normal extradition would work? Would you say that terrorism is a problem that can be solved purely with the judicial system? How would you have handled bin Laden?
cat48
Off Topic, but Obama Change? This gave me goosebumps b/c I didn’t think his endorsement would mean anything; but maybe it does. Can’t wait to see new Poll. From: TPM
After Obama’s endorsement of gay marriage in May, the phones at Minnesota United for All Families’ campaign headquarters were ringing off the hook.
..
“The next day, we didn’t have enough chairs for everybody wanting to work with the campaign,” the anti-amendment group’s press secretary Kate Brickman told TPM. Volunteer interest “definitely swelled,” she added.
..
A survey to be released Tuesday from Public Policy Polling (D) indicates a “big shift” against the amendment over the past four months. A January PPP poll of Minnesota showed that 48 percent of voters support the amendment, while 44 percent are opposed. The results fell along generational lines: voters under the age of 64 oppose the amendment. Seniors support the amendment 58/32.
..
Brickman said she wasn’t surprised to see PPP announce that Minnesota is seeing a shift against the amendment. “The momentum has been accelerating more and more,” she said. “Following North Carolina and Obama’s statement, people really started talking about it.”
mathguy
Speaking of the military, did anyone catch that gawd awful NYT piece on SOC? “Eric your bias is showing…”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/05/world/special-ops-leader-seeks-new-authority-and-is-denied.html?hp
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
To use a geek example, Mace Windu had the right idea about dealing with Palpatine, while Anakin was busy worrying about a formal trial.
We all know how that turned out.
Keith
@arguingwithsignposts: The #3s were all killed under the Bush administration. Seriously, though it used to always be #3 because 1 and 2 were Bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri.
chopper
@amk:
greenwald says this guy was just an innocent shoe salesman, but if cole linked to it you’d be all GLENN IS A DOUCHE HE LIVES IN BRAZIL HE’S A GLIBERTARIAN SOCKPUPPETS ARGLE BARGLE!
that about right?
The Thin Black Duke
@Villago Delenda Est: Obama shot first.
sparky
from the same article
ahh, possibly half! or maybe not, depending on the editing. just a little collateral damage. those 29 or 25 or 15 really should not have been living in a country the US doesn’t like that much, so it’s pretty much their own fault. or maybe they were all guilty too. besides they were perhaps suspected anyway, and you know that everyone who is a suspect is guilty. we should so adopt that system here: faster and cheaper.
salvage
I believe this is the 4,963rd “Number Two Drops” in the last 8 years or so.
What a load of horeshit, Obama is just doing the same damned stupid, illegal and evil thing that Bush was doing only I seem to remember a lot more complaining.
Glenwald expands on it:
http://www.salon.com/2012/06/04/obama_again_bombs_mourners/singleton/
In short, kill a few maybe terrorists make a 100 motivated ones.
Yes, yes, Obama is better than Bush, yes, yes, Obama is better than any turd the GOP tosses into the electoral punch bowl but that doesn’t change the fact that these drone strikes are war crimes.
Nina
I’m mildly amused that his name is close to the word ‘alibi’.
Mike Goetz
al-Libi was a major figure in al-Qaeda. This is a triumph. I’ll bet his name was even on that “kill list” that everyone wrings their hands over.
Not me.
Keith G
In some ways this thread is related to the last. To kill the bad guys who would kill us, we need recon intel. How much is too much, I cannot say.
@cat48:
When the president articulates a position and makes a committed stand, it educates the public. It makes a difference. That is part of what is meant by the concept of a Bully (good or advantageous) Pulpit.
Valdivia
Totally OT but how pathetic is it that Rubio has taken his first trip to Cuba by going to….Guatanamo Bay. And this is supposed to bolster ‘his foreign policy credentials‘
Is this country just running on stupid and vapid now?
magurakurin
@salvage:
It’s been asked a thousand times and unanswered a thousand more, but what should they do? Ignore it altogether and not worry about terrorism? Use police?(if choosing this please show your work)Send only SEAL teams and such? Use jet fighters? Use only CIA agents and try to extradite?
Let’s just say you are right and the drone program is a war crime and must stop. Now, what are your solutions and alternatives. I’m willing to listen if you have anything to offer other than, Obama is a war criminal.
Villago Delenda Est
@Valdivia:
You missed the “you can see Russia from an Alaskan island” four years ago?
Valdivia
@Villago Delenda Est:
but everyone mocked that. This will be seen as serious. I mean, really? This is the standard now? You go to a military base in Cuba, the site of something we should be ashamed of, and he gets kudos from the press? and the wonks?
I am really thinking I need to start drinking in the morning.
redshirt
I drop number twos just about every day. Like it ain’t no thang.
amk
@chopper: right, gg is the authority of what these guys do in their real lives.
And yes,
GLENN IS A DOUCHE HE LIVES IN BRAZIL HE’S A GLIBERTARIAN SOCKPUPPETS ARGLE BARGLE!
gnomedad
@arguingwithsignposts:
Sounds like they have a Lake Woebegone thing going on.
John of Indiana
Ratchet everybody up one spot and advert for an opening in the mailroom…
chopper
@amk:
well, he does have a blog. that automatically makes you an expert. just like when you join the GOP you get an honorary phD in macroeconomics.
gene108
Bastards…from the second Guardian link.
We’re paying them to fight terrorists? They should be doing this of their own volition, because you know terrorists are bad and not a tool to you know attack your larger neighbor to the East, India, because you still have a bug up your butt about shit that happened 65 years ago.
Might as well pay Iran to “fight” Hezbullah.
amk
@chopper: right, he has a blog, that makes him an expert, woot, woot. You are welcome to suck his dick. Me, I use don’t care that dick. And yes, I’ll deride him as much as I please. So suck on that.
gene108
@salvage:
What can you do, when Pakistan is too chickenshit to actually declare war on India to try and grab Jammu & Kashmir, because they know they’d get their asses kicked again, but decided 25 years ago to wage a proxy war via terrorists, who they give “moral support” to but officially no material support?
They used Afghanistan, in the 1990’s, when it was under Taliban control to train militants to invade India in May of 1999.
The only reason the Taliban, al-Qaeda and the rest of this shit that keeps our troops in Afghanistan for this long is because of Pakistan’s “moral support” for terrorism.
Fuck Pakistan.
They are the problem.
They reap what they sow by supporting terrorists.
Villago Delenda Est
@gene108:
The problem now is that they have nukes.
That’s what all this is about.
Linda Featheringill
@Raven: #15
:-)
[by the Three Dog Night, of course.]
salvage
@magurakurin:
>It’s been asked a thousand times and unanswered a thousand more, but what should they do?
So. Your logic is doing the wrong thing is better than nothing?
>Ignore it altogether and not worry about terrorism?
Yes! That’s it exactly! Ignore it or do something to make it worse, IT’S THAT BINARY!!!
>Now, what are your solutions and alternatives. I’m willing to listen if you have anything to offer other than, Obama is a war criminal.
Wingnuts, not limited to the GOP.
Listen. Think. Doing the wrong thing in place of doing nothing does not make it the right thing.
There is no “solution” to terrorism anymore than there is a “solution” to rape, murder and credit card fraud. If some Koran thumping loonies are going to kill themselves and a bunch of people there isn’t much anyone can do unless you move to a police state and kill anyone who looks at you funny.
No! Not reality, I’m an American! Only reality I want is on my MTV. I don’t accept that our safety is limited, we’ll just keep on taking pot-shots at dusky hued foreigners killing civilians, call them terrorists and chant USA! USA! and enjoy the illusion of security that brings.
Tell me, if some survivor of a drone strike who had nothing to do with terrorism, who lost their family to the attack decided to side with al Qeada would you blame them? Would you respond differently in their place? Would you be all “Now, now, America has suffered so much, it’s understandable that they randomly kill people on the other side of the planet.”
salvage
@gene108:
Uh huh.
And I believe it was bin Laden who said:
Fuck America.
They are the problem.
They reap what they sow by supporting Israel.
Mnemosyne
@gene108:
I might be more sympathetic to Pakistan if not for, say, 26/11 in Mumbai. If you have absolutely no control over the violent militants in your country who live and train there until they’re ready to attack your longtime enemy, then don’t be surprised when other countries step in to try and stop those militants.
Mnemosyne
@Villago Delenda Est:
Both India and Pakistan have nukes. So Pakistan nukes Mumbai, India nukes Islamabad in retaliation, and we’re all fucked.
Someguy
I’m looking forward to the day when we have a Republican in the White House and I can dig out my pre-2009 talking points condemning US assassinations abroad. My current fanboy talking points (“Oh, isn’t he manly, ordering some E-4 in Nevada to kill that terrorist via remote control”) are getting a bit threadbare.
gene108
@Villago Delenda Est:
The nukes are there, but the whole Afghan situation is a lot more complicated than the U.S. media makes it out to be.
Iran was willing to be our ally in 2001, because they hated the Taliban and nearly went to war against them, but Bush & Co. decided to ignore them. Now Iran is playing their own game in Western Afghanistan, which has a large Shia population.
India doesn’t want Pakistan to use Afghanistan again as a base of operations against it, so they are pouring in a lot of resources to help Karzi and the Afghans out. Karzi went to college in India, so he has some affinity for India, from what I’ve read.
Pakistan feel threatened by India being in Afghanistan and so is continuing to give “moral support” to groups bugging Afghanistan, though after several terrorist attacks within Pakistan they have sent the military into Western Afghanistan to actually suppress insurrection.
The U.S. and NATO are worried about al-Qaeda blowing up their citizens again, but don’t want to lose anymore soldiers.
There’s a “Great Game” being played in Afghanistan again, but this time it isn’t between the British and the Russians.
Mnemosyne
@salvage:
As several people have pointed out, the drone strikes have very little to do with US fears of terrorist attacks on US soil and a whole fuckton to do with US fears of Pakistan and India going to war when both sides have nukes.
If you think we should take an isolationist stance and let them go to war with each other, then say so, but don’t pretend that what’s going on now has more to do with 9/11 than with 26/11.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne:
A lot of call center jobs move back to the U.S.
salvage
@Mnemosyne:
Bombing funerals prevents wars? Really? Because I think it probably contributes to the tension in the area. I think it gives the terrorists a cause to rally around and that they can point to India and America and say “See? They do want to kill you!”
Bombing for peace, it worked in Vietnam why wouldn’t it work elsewhere?
>we should take an isolationist stance
Yes, that is exactly what I mean when I say America shouldn’t be executing people with robots based on hearsay. They should let war break out.
For 8 years of Bush I thought “It’s not America, it’s the GOP” but after three years of watching “liberals” stroll past Obama’s continuation of policies they screamed about I see that, no, it’s America.
lacp
There’s already a new #2. Who is #6?
gene108
@salvage:
Our support of Israel has pissed off the Muslim world and is pigheaded for no good reason I can think of, because we have a double standard in dealing with Israel versus the rest of the world. We make sure the U.N. Security Council doesn’t enforce any of the resolutions passed condemning Israel for settlements in Palestinian territories.
I do think 9/11/2001 was “blow back” from our double standard between Israel and the rest of the world. If we had a less interventionist foreign policy, we’d be a lot more secure but the maw of the insatiable military-industrial complex needs to be fed, because those are the only government jobs that are useful and the only government spending that sustains local economies (sarcasm).
This still doesn’t make Pakistan’s decision to give “moral support” for terrorists for over 20 years right.
Think of the drone attacks as “blow back” for Pakistan’s support of terrorism.
The U.S. could curb some of its international resentment by not carrying Israel’s water so much.
Pakistan could curb the drone strikes, if it put down the militants within its borders, but there’s ample evidence they are doing anything but that.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/04/us-usa-pakistan-haqqani-idUSBRE85312E20120604
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/national/02-Feb-2012/isi-aiding-afghan-militants-nato
Keith G
While there is something to be said about this line of reasoning, I do find it interesting that this is not the way Obama is selling this activity to the public. Why is that?
Might it be that there is less legal cover if the reason for drone killings is “US fears of Pakistan and India going to war”?
You and the Obama team need to compare notes. Something isn’t adding up.
Mnemosyne
@salvage:
Ah, so terrorists from Pakistan attacked Mumbai in November of 2008 not because of the 60-year-long cold war and rivalry between the two countries, but because the US has bombed funerals. Yep, that’s totally logical. If the US would just pull out entirely, I’m sure Indian and Pakistani soldiers would be leaning across the border to hand flowers to each other.
Yep, no difference at all between Vietnam and India/Pakistan. You sure got me there. After all, longtime tension between two neighboring countries that both use proxies in Afghanistan to fight their war is exactly like a civil war for independence from an imperial power.
So you don’t like the tactic of using drones, but you acknowledge that NATO and the US can’t just let Pakistan and India go to war. So what’s your plan? Committing ground troops? Special forces (or, let’s face it, additional special forces)?
gene108
Sigh…longer comment in moderation…keeping this short.
Salvage, I think U.S. Israeli policy has contributed to blow-back from the Muslim world, including 9/11/01.
That doesn’t make Pakistan’s refusal to handle the terrorists operating with in its borders right.
If Pakistan wants the drone strikes to stop, they need to quit worrying about India, which isn’t doing anything to Pakistan and focus on the terrorists.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
My guess is that there’s less public relations cover, not less legal cover. If Americans are already pissed off at the thought of keeping US soldiers in Afghanistan to supposedly protect US interests, they’re going to be even more pissed off at keeping US soldiers in Afghanistan to protect India’s interests.
Richard
Being #2 in al-Qaida is like being the drummer of Spinal Tap.
redshirt
@Richard: Great look. Good terrorist.
salvage
@Mnemosyne:
Ah, so blowing up civilians at a funeral would have prevented the Mumbai attacks, of course!
>Yep, no difference at all between Vietnam and India/Pakistan.
Wow, that point went so over your head Richard Branson could have ridden it for some extreme parachuting.
No, you deeply silly person, the point I was making is that randomly bombing civilians doesn’t win anything, it just makes dead / pissed off civilians. Can you guess how terrorists take advantage of that?
>So you don’t like the tactic of using drones,
HOLY. SHIT. ARE. YOU. RETARDED? I don’t like civilians being blown up. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that? You get it right? Obama is killing people who happen to be standing beside a guy that some other guy told the CIA was a terrorist. And you think that’s the way to stop terrorism and bring peace to India and Pakistan?
> So what’s your plan?
Once again, doing the wrong thing because you don’t know what to do doesn’t make it the right thing.
My car won’t start so… uh I’ll set it on fire!
>Committing ground troops? Special forces (or, let’s face it, additional special forces)?
Jesus.
Fucking.
Christ.
salvage
@gene108:
>That doesn’t make Pakistan’s refusal to handle the terrorists operating with in its borders right.
Right with in its borders maybe literally true but in reality the frontier that they work out of is pretty much the Wild West Far East. They can’t bring the region under central authority and they can’t crack down for fear of the fundies using it to launch a coup. That would be even worse for everyone.
There is no solution right now, maybe there will be down the road but America jamming a ham-fisted drone policy isn’t going to be it.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: That is likely the case, but to me it comes down to the theoretical notion that we live in a democratic republic.
Bush, Obama, or whoever: Just tell the fucking truth. They haven’t been.
Mnemosyne
Also, too, before I head off to work — I still think we need to GTF out of Afghanistan, sooner rather than later, but, contra Greenwald, there are reasons we’re still there other than because Barack Obama is a warmongering warmonger who loves killing babies.
burnspbesq
@some guy:
I know you’re not stupid. Why do you keep saying stupid things?
The guy was a combatant in a war zone. He’s fair game. So long as reasonable care was taken to minimize collateral damage, this attack raises exactly zero legal issues.
Mnemosyne
@salvage:
Neither do I. But claiming that al-Libi was “just a shoemaker” is a pretty retarded way of proving that innocent civilians are being blown up.
If there is proof that al-Libi was an innocent civilian who was not, in fact, working for al-Qaeda, please present it. I’ve already heard all kinds of bullshit presented to claim that al-Awlaki wasn’t really working for al-Qaeda and was just an innocent guy minding his own business when the CIA killed him, so I’m curious to hear what the claims are about al-Libi.
So you have no idea what a better strategy would be. All you know is that this must be the worst possible one. Gotcha.
gene108
@salvage:
Doing nothing doesn’t win anything either and doesn’t make the problem go away.
@salvage:
Most Pakistani’s aren’t religious nutjobs. I’ve worked with a few.
The issue with Pakistan is that their military is independent of civilian control. If they military wants to run clandestine operations, they can and there’s no oversight anywhere.
When the nutjobs started bombing the more cosmopolitan parts of Pakistan, there was a backlash against the nutjobs and the military did do something on its Western Front, but not nearly enough.
@Mnemosyne:
India’s never started a fight with Pakistan, though some can debate about the 1971 Pakistan civil war that spilled into India and India’s decision to act militarily.
If Pakistan agreed to the current borders, the tension would start going away pretty quickly and old wounds would heal.
Also, too there’s not much proxy fighting going on in Afghanistan between India and Pakistan. India hasn’t committed much militarily to Afghanistan, because they know Pakistan would go nuts and escalate whatever tensions already exist.
amk
@salvage: It’s clear you know jacksquat about pakistan and india.
daverave
@redshirt:
I love the juxtaposition on this post (“Another Number Two Drops”) with an advert for cleaner water from charitywater_dot_org that shows a dog pooping in a water source that a kid is drawing water from…. those advertising bots are simply amazing and scary.
redshirt
@daverave: Pretty soon the bots will be doing the posting too.
rikyrah
I know that it’s politically incorrect to laugh at this, but I am just imagining them sitting around, trying to rig the ‘ pull the straw’ game so that they don’t get the short straw.
Cromagnon
@salvage:
Don’t worry. When RMoney is elected president, you, Cole, and Greenwald won’t have to worry about the evil Obama killing ‘innocents’ anymore. I’m sure things will be MUCH more peaceful with RMoney holding the trigger
chopper
@amk:
Jesus, you have no idea that I was making fun of greenwald, do you?
chopper
@Mnemosyne:
he has no idea that those two sentences contradict each other, does he.
Tim I
@Keith G: There’s always a bright side.