For Memorial Day:
(1) Paul Fussell:
“Every war is ironic because every war is worse than expected. Every war constitutes an irony of situation because its means are so melodramatically disproportionate to its presumed ends.”
(2) A post on the subject from Wonkette that I like.
(3) Steve M is right: Chris Hayes is full of shit to avoid the word “heroes”. People who serve in war are heroes precisely because war is terrible. The fact that the right wants the 101st Chairborne to whack off to Lee Greenwood over it doesn’t make war any less terrible and it doesn’t make those who serve any less heroic. Remember: though elites start fights in jest, working-class people get shot in earnest. Update. People say I need to listen to Hayes in full context to understand, so maybe he’s not full of shit.
Raven
All this hero shit is way overdone.
Svensker
Meh. I can see both sides but I’m pretty much with Hayes. There is a fetishization of “the troops” these days which goes along with the militarization of our culture. Calling them all heroes is, to me, part of it, along with the “warrior” trope which I absolutely hate. I prefer the idea of the “citizen soldier” who did his/her duty when necessary but mostly didn’t have to because the country wasn’t at war very much.
Of course, talking about how great “the troops” are mostly only means when they are walking around looking all fabulous in uniform, or when they’re killin’ enemy, or when they’re getting killed themselves. Then they’re “heroes”. When they come home with broken bodies or minds or disagree with the war-mongers, then the folks don’t want to hear about the “heroes” anymore. Some of ’em actually become “traitors” — see Kerry, John or Beauchamp, Scott.
Dave Trowbridge
I’m with Hayes, also. As I posted on Steve M’s blog:
I wish I could believe that we don’t like ware as much as we think we do, but to my eyes, the “sacramental militarism” of the American civil religion is just getting stronger, and the increasingly careless use of the word “hero” is just one symptom of this.
Frankly, our attitude towards “the troops” is idolatrous, and serves neither them, nor us, nor God.
Raven
@Svensker: Traitor here.
Professor
Please Doug, go to msnbc.com/up with chris hayes and check the context in which that ‘heroes’ statement was made. I thought the context was about our dead and those of the ‘uncounted’ dead on the other side!
BGinCHI
The tell on the right is treating their “heroes” like shit after they return from the fight: voting against GI education bills, against healthcare (especially mental health), and other benefits.
They don’t care about people; they care about ideology.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
My argument for bringing back the draft has two components:
1. Everyone should have to be worried about having to pay the price of going into war.
2. We need to end the hero worship of military people. The longer this goes on, the more and more it will be used to silence dissent against the military.
I am a veteran, and I will gladly give up my 10% discount at Lowe’s, Home Depot, O’Reilly’s, and wherever else. I am also under no illusion that some wealthy people will find a way to pay to get their kids out of serving. It will still mean more people will have to pay attention to what is going on.
Raven
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I don’t think Lowes gives it to vets anymore, just active duty.
“Home improvement retailer Lowe’s has been great about offering a 10% military discount for major holiday weekends of Memorial Day, Fourth of July and Veteran’s Day. Now they are expanding their discount to be available every day for active-duty, National Guard and reserve, retiree and disabled service members, and their families. Other veterans will still be able to take advantage of the discount on the promotional holiday weekends. The complete press release can be found here.
Read more: http://paycheck-chronicles.military.com/2010/02/11/lowes-military-discount-now-available-all-year-long/#ixzz1wC1G8gPV
The Paycheck Chronicles
JWL
A September, 1864 message to the Mayor and city council of Atlanta, from William Tecumseh Sherman:
“..You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the national feeling. This feeling assumes various shapes, but always comes back to that of Union. Once admit the Union, once more acknowledge the authority of the national Government, and, instead of devoting your houses and streets and roads to the dread uses of war, I and this army become at once your protectors and supporters, shielding you from danger, let it come from what quarter it may. I know that a few individuals cannot resist a torrent of error and passion, such as swept the South into rebellion, but you can point out, so that we may know those who desire a government, and those who insist on war and its desolation..”.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
Here’s my deal with Hayes’ comments: My interpretation is that we’re considering the military ‘heroes’ by default, which doesn’t necessarily mean we’re quicker to justify wars than we should be…but it does tend to mean we’re quicker to consider the military above criticism and off-limits in a lot of ways. Look at how prohibitively impossible it is to streamline our military and how bloated it is because otherwise we’re somehow anti-American for considering it and denigrating ‘heroes’ who sacrificed for us.
Here’s my deal: hero is overused. Firefighters and Policemen are not ‘heroes’ by default. They’re heroes when they go above and beyond the call of duty and act as examples to others in their field and inspirations to those out of the field. Those who worked at Ground Zero, despite knowing the dangers posed there, who have sacrificed their lives and their health especially the way they got screwed over in the later years…those are heroes. Audie Murphy is/was a hero. Guys who take care of bombs and act as a human shield for their comrades and fellow soldiers, those are heroes. Everyone else is worth respect for their job, but they’re not heroes: they’re doing a job. I’m not going to shit on someone wearing a medal for service unless they prove to be a scumbag like Ollie North, but at the same time, I’m not going to assume everyone who wears the uniform is a hero until proven otherwise.
Heroism should not be a default assumption, is all that I’m saying. I will honor the troops, I will weep when they die and when they get used by command that makes less sacrifices than they do and/or thrown them into wars and situations everyone knows isn’t worth it. But I think assuming heroism as a default for the armed services lets people in charge get away with a whole lot of absurd shit that leaves many of the lower guys as pawns and encourages too many people to shut off their critical thinking when the military is involved.
Aloysius
How is it heroic to do bad things because some idiot in a hat tells you to?
BGinCHI
@JWL: Then Sherman added:
“Now back to kicking your cracker asses.”
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@BGinCHI:
It’s the same way they care all about the unborn, the unborn, the little lives that Democrats all want to snuff out in the womb, etc, but soon as they’re born, it’s all ‘STupid fucking sluts not knowing how to keep their legs shut, NO HELP FOR YOU’.
Raven
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik: Well said. I had a facebook friend call me “brave” for being a vet today. I didn’t think it warranted a rebuttal but I sure ain’t.
Bloix
As far as I can see, the reason to call dead soldiers “heroes” is to avoid having to recognize that what they really are is victims.
Raven
@Aloysius: I did what this guy told me but it wasn’t because of his hat and he was no idiot.
Raven
And guess who is playing into the whiny “I got spit on and didn’t get a parade” bullshit?
Linnaeus
The Snarxist, Svensker, and Raven have pretty much expressed the same view that I have on the matter. Hayes’ take was more thoughtful and nuanced than his critics are giving him credit for.
There’s never a really “comfortable” way to talk about war, how we deal with the memories of those who fought and died in it, etc., for most people because it too often requires us to confront things we’d rather not think about.
Svensker
@Raven:
That makes you a real hero in my book.
Mnemosyne
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
I don’t disagree with your other points, but I really don’t think the reason it’s impossible to streamline the military in the way it needs to be done is because people are reluctant to take things away from “heroes.” It’s because of deliberate distortions and fear-mongering by Republicans and conservatives who are more interested in protecting DoD contractors than they are in the actual military.
That’s why Republicans are able to scream about liberals endangering the country by trying to end the development of weapons that the military doesn’t even want but completely ignore, say, conditions that veterans have to endure at Walter Reed Hospital.
They care about DoD contractors, not soldiers, but they lump them all into being “our troops” so they can keep the gravy train running to their contributors.
Commish
What Hayes said is intellectually defensible and I even agree to an extent. But Memorial Day is a time to commemorate sacrifice, and a time when public speakers should consider their impact on vets and families who lost buddies and loved ones. It’s not a time to overthink terminology.
That said, let me re-state something that I posted at the bottom of an old Open Thread, the one with the cartoon depicting tired soldiers in the desert vs a carefree BBQ: The guilt-tripping over Memorial Day celebrations is way overdone. A number of my relatives were combat vets and they all BBQ’d on Memorial Day, if the weather was good, celebrating the freedoms and bounty our family enjoyed in America. They’d often watch the President at Arlington too, but they’d have scoffed – or worse – at people who seem to want to make it a day of general mourning.
eemom
“I know I’m not brave.”
PopeRatzo
I think maybe Chris Hayes just hasn’t had the opportunity to meet or interact with the people who go to war in our name.
My dad, whose grave I visited today as I do every Memorial Day, fought with Merrill’s Marauders in Burma during WWII. He won a Bronze Star and a bunch of other medals and came home and raised a family, taught us kids to hate war. He taught me that hunting (which had been his favorite activity before going to WWII) was not really honorable. That if an animal had to die for your “sport”, there is something wrong with you. He came back from WWII and bought a house with a loan from the VA and voted Democratic until the day he died. He pointed out to me why Martin Luther King was an honorable man and why Ronald Reagan was not.
My father was heroic in ways that I can never conceive of being, and his greatest heroism came well after the War. By all accounts he was a true warrior during the fighting and then set aside war completely when the fighting was done. Unlike the half of military personnel today who come back from Iraq and Afghanistan to sign up for disability payments (because there are no jobs), my father never considered abusing the social safety net, but absolutely believed that the safety net should be as strong and as well-funded as possible. He wanted it there for the people who need it. He was a liberal, a Democrat, a union member, and he was progressive in a way that I just don’t see that much any more.
I’m sorry to say I don’t recognize that kind of progressive spirit in many of the whining voices (“oh, we can’t beat Scott Walker because he’s got so much money and the DNC won’t come and help us!”) I hear today.
I can only hope the next generation is different. Maybe they’ll get back some of what this generation is missing.
Raven
@PopeRatzo: You’re pretty good at whining yourself.
David Koch
I’m SHOCKED!
I’m SHOCKED!
A Professional Lefty like Hayes acting like an ass! ?
I’m SHOCKED!
fasteddie9318
Here’s a thought: if we as a society stopped thinking of our military members as ”heroes” and started thinking of them as ”men and women who fight, kill, die, are horribly maimed, and suffer life-changing mental injury on our behalf,” would we be less inclined to waste their precious service on things like Iraq II?
Palli
@fasteddie9318: applause
David Koch
Black Abe Lincoln is politicizing Memorial Day by giving a stirring, tearful address honoring forgotten soldiers.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
(3) Steve M is right: Chris Hayes is full of shit to avoid the word “heroes”. People who serve in war are heroes precisely because war is terrible.
I see no difference between, say, the Americans fighting in Afghanistan now for their Empire and the Soviets fighting in Afghanistan during the Eighties for their Empire. If you want to call your troops “heroes”, then you should first consider how you feel applying that label to other soldiers, such as those fighting against you.
Indeed, the VietCong were objectively far more heroic than the American soldiers they were fighting – they faced longer odds and were heavily outgunned.
HRA
I believe the majority of vets from any war do not expect to be called heroes. In fact family member veterans are quite happy not to mention their experiences and it’s an unspoken knowledge among us not to ask about them.
This day is to honor and respect those who made the ultimate sacrifice. Every day is a day of mourning for those who are left behind.
Schlemizel
A) It is interesting that the wingtards want to fixate on the word “heros” but totally ignore the needs of those kids their wingtard-in-chief committed to a fools errand.
B) Read Paul Fussell and you learn why those kids do not consider themselves heroes. What they are is cannon fodder, sent to die horrible deaths (blown to bits, killed by fragments of your buddy, burnt alive) and not given a second thought by the people who sent them there to die or the puppet masters directing the meat grinder.
Jay
@Raven: Is that McCain?
Raven
@Jay: Nope, Obama. He did it at the Medal of Honor presentation last week as well.
eta I guess I don’t blame him. It’s so ingrained in our national psyche it will never be purged.
Bill Murray
Siegfried Sasoon “The Hero”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDgtZXnk7FU
Q.Q. Moar
@Raven: Don’t be a twat, Raven. PopeR, your dad sounds like a real mensch.
Raven
@Q.Q. Moar: Yea, and this dude gets to whine and bitch about today’s vets “half of military personnel today who come back from Iraq and Afghanistan to sign up for disability payments (because there are no jobs), my father never considered abusing the social safety net”.
Horseshit. My comment has nothing to do with his dad, it has to do with the implication that these vets are “abusing” the system as opposed to having real problems.
Jay
@Raven: I don’t doubt that, coming out of ‘nam, SOME soldiers were abused by American civvies. The real question we should be asking is: was there a national pattern?
I wasn’t alive then, so on this question, I think it’s most important to do alot of listening and reading.
The best book on the subject, in my view, is “The Spitting Image,” and it argues that ultimately, there wasn’t a national pattern of abuse directed at those coming home from Vietnam.
What I have heard from some vets of that time (including those who kept me out of trouble at the American Legion’s Boys State program) is that they simply felt ignored. Yes, some returning vets spoke on TV then, but THESE guys just came home to alot of quiet. That’s different from spitting, of course.
FWIW, in at least one town in my native CT, NONE of the Viet Vets wear their uniforms in parades. These dues wear T – shirts & blue jeans. Swear to Pete. Maybe this means they didn’t like what they did then. Either way, it’s made me start to understand soldiers who sweat the “thanks for your service” bit. The thing is, that small line is a fraction of their story, and it assumes a soldier is proud of his service, when the truth may be more complicated. Better to say, “Welcome home.”
hojo
Every war is what failure looks like, failure of imagination, of humanity.
Mnemosyne
@Jay:
IMO, the “abuse” that Vietnam veterans was much more about government neglect of the genuine problems they suffered afterwards (from “just” PTSD to Agent Orange exposure that the government lied about and covered up for decades) than it was about a few hippies spitting on people.
But the hippies were such a convenient scapegoat for everything in Reagan’s America that I’m not at all surprised that they were pressed into service by conservatives to provide a handy target for the ire of returning vets who couldn’t get the VA to acknowledge their problems.
(ETA: Yes, I’m kind of conflating eras, but it was really only in the Reagan era that the problems of vets returning from Vietnam became public.)
Chris
@Svensker:
This. Ahhh, the citizen-soldier model… the American Way of War for a hundred and fifty years, all but forgotten today.
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
Also this.
Raven
@Jay: Lembke’s book is very good but it didn’t, and won’t, change the conventional thinking. We came home one-at-a-time, there was really no time or place for any kind of mass welcome. The closest thing was the Welcome Home Vietnam Vets Parade in Chicago in 86, just over a decade after the war ended. The big deal about WWII vets, my old man included, was that they came home and went about living the rest of their lives. That also is a bit more complex. The WWII GI Bill, educational and housing benefits, have been called “the greatest economic flywheel” in our history. They deserved it but the idea that they came home and did it on their own is another myth.
As far as “welcome home”. I find it as empty as “thanks for your service”. As we said, “it don’t mean nuthin”.
Raven
So the Cubs have Brian Denehey in the booth on Memorial Day. Great fucking research:
“I lied about serving in Vietnam and I’m sorry. That was very wrong of me. There is no real excuse for that. I was a peace-time Marine, and I got out in 1963 without ever serving in Vietnam. I started the story that I had been in ‘Nam, and I got stuck with it. Then I didn’t know how to set the record straight.” Nonetheless, in 2007 Dennehy once again told a reporter that he had served in Vietnam, this time Joanne Kaufman of the Wall Street Journal.[5]
WaterGirl
@PopeRatzo: I thought that most of what you wrote was great, and I would have really liked your dad. But I was shocked to see this in the middle of your comment:
It just doesn’t seem to fit with the rest of what you wrote.
For all the talk of heroes and honoring the military and all the flag pins, we still aren’t taking care of our veterans the way we should be. Half the military personnel abusing the safety net? That’s a really terrible thing to say.
Mnemosyne
@Raven:
In the immediate aftermath of WWII, there was a lot of public discussion about the aftereffects of war on the men who’d fought it — there was even an Academy Award-winning film about it, fer chrissakes.
But it all got swept into the memory hole when anti-communist propaganda proved to be a potent weapon against liberals and unions, and the cold hand of the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) squeezed Hollywood by the balls and made them drop the subject.
Raven
@Mnemosyne: I would also note that those of us who came home and fought to end the war had a cohesiveness that other vets who just buried it didn’t. The VVAW originated the concept of “rap groups” more commonly known as the “self-help” movement based on the notion of people with common experiences helping each other.
Keith G
This raises a few questions.
Raven
@Mnemosyne: Yup. I remember my dad sitting in a room with a guy and talking him out of blowing his own brains out with the 45 in his hand.
Raven
@WaterGirl: I appreciate the fact that you actually read what he said.
Kane
We went through an entire decade where those on the right wrapped themselves in the flag and manipulated what it actually means to support the troops. We were told that any criticism of the president during a time of war would embolden the enemy and put our troops in harm’s way. Interesting how that argument only applies when a Republican is president.
We witnessed how those on the right vilified and questioned the patriotism, courage, and honor of those who disputed the validity of the administration’s misbegotten war. We witnessed the Rovian attacks on triple-amputee Vietnam veteran Senator Max Cleland, morphing his image in campaign ads with Osama bin Laden. We witnessed how they swiftboated combat veteran and presidential candidate John Kerry, and how at the GOP convention they mocked his war wounds. We witnessed how they vilified Cindy Sheehan, a mother of a fallen soldier, for simply questioning the war. We witnessed their cover-ups, politicalization, and propaganda efforts surrounding the events of Pat Tillman’s death and the “heroics” of Jessica Lynch. We witnessed “Freedom Fries” and the vilification of our allies who differed with the administration’s neocon war policies. We witnessed how in their rush to war they sent our troops off to combat without the proper equipment.
Recently we have witnessed the continued opposition from those on the right for the repeal of DADT, even though their dire predictions of what would occur if DADT was repealed never happened. We witnessed at a GOP presidential debate how a gay soldier stationed in Iraq was booed for asking whether the candidates would support the progress made for gay soldiers, and we witnessed the utter silence from the candidates to condemn those who had booed this soldier. We have witnessed the disheartening fog of lies and hypocrisy from the same chicken hawks who banged the drums for war throughout decade now thumping their chest for more war adventures to satisy their unquenchable bloodlust. And we have witnessed how these same people on the right who so often declare their love of the troops repeatedly propose to cut the benefits that were promised to our veterans.
If Chris Hayes and others feel uncomfortable with the word hero because it is rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war, who can blame them? The neocons and warmongers have sullied such honorable words. They think that their lack of supporting the troops and veterans can be painted over with a thick coat of empty patriotic rhetoric.
Raven
@Kane: Fuckin A Dawg!
Dinah
I haven’t listened to the Hayes broadcast, but I don’t think he will make a good enough case to impress me. We have deployed young men–barely older than children–four, five and more times. Thousands died and many thousands came home damaged. They can’t get jobs and they can’t always get decent care. I don’t care if they volunteered because of economic hardship–referring to them as “heroes” is little enough to do. I am the mother of an active-duty Navy officer. He has a Bronze Star and you are welcome to call him a hero.
Q.Q. Moar
@Raven: “My comment has nothing to do with his dad, it has to do with the implication that these vets are “abusing” the system as opposed to having real problems.”
Yeah, I read that too and thought it was off the mark but your six word reply to Ratzo didn’t really address that.
BradyB
@Keith G:
The number one question being:
Why doesn’t DougJ do the work of informing himself on a topic before making a blog post about it?
Raven
@Q.Q. Moar: “Off the mark”? It was a fucking slap in the face.
Linnaeus
We’ve got record numbers of vets filing for disability, but no, we need more tax cuts!
Commenting at Ballon Juice since 1937
Heroes rescue people from burning buildings.
Michael Finn
Not every war is worse than expected.
The First Gulf War was way better than anybody could have realized and probably set the stage for the Neoconservatives in using the American military as their proxy tool. They were expecting something in the neighborhood of 10,000 casualties and suffered in the area of 10% of that.
eemom
@BradyB:
New around here, aren’t ya.
Keith G
@Dinah:
Officially, your son is a hero, so there’s that.
My coworker and good friend signed up in ’01 and spent a lot of time at a supply depot in Kuwait – a lot of time loading trucks and procuring weed. That former Marine does not speak of that time as a heroic gig.
Let’s use words correctly and lets check sources before commenting. I agree with Hayes’ basic concern:
I think he was an idiot for saying it on his show.
Cacti
My grandfather and 8 great uncles all volunteered to fight in World War II. Some were wounded, one was captured and spent time as German POW, one survived having his plane shot down.
They all came home, got married, raised families, and lived quiet lives. I consider all of them heroes, though none of them ever would have demanded to be called one.
Cermet
@BGinCHI: No – you have it wrong! The right weenies and other chicken-hawks are all for the lower classes dying and being injured and call these soldiers ‘hero’s’. Only after the empire profits and the take is good does it change with the soldiers coming home. Then they are parasites wanting social welfare. Like the guy in Georgia who had lost both legs and one arm – they gave that guy the shaft big time when he got in the way of real Hero’s – thugs running for the same office.
See, it is all explained.
MTiffany
Of course all american troops are heroes, much the same way that all american children are einsteins and mozarts; america is just exceptional that way. And anyone that disagrees with me is an america-hating commie, obviously.
WaterGirl
I watched Up with Chris Hayes this weekend as I always do. I love the show and think it’s the most intelligent conversation around.
I did cringe once or twice yesterday while this was being discussed, but if anyone is upset by what they think he said, I would second the suggestion to actually watch the video of that segment.
One of the great things about the show is that it’s not scripted. There is almost always intelligent conversation and I always learn a lot. Chris Hayes and his 4 guests actually listen to one another and the conversation doesn’t always go where you would expect. On the best shows they are listening and thinking things through, not just making their case for some point they want to beat the drum for.
I agree that every soldier is not a hero. I do believe that anyone who signs up to serve their country is brave and honorable and deserves a boatload of credit and respect for doing what I know I could never do. And after watching the show yesterday, I can comfortably say I think Chris Hayes believes that also.
lucslawyer
The last group of American vets that I have any respect for are those of the Korean War…every time I read of someone saying they went to fight in Iraq or Afghanistan to protect our freedom I think to myself ….”yeah, keep telling yourself that….”
Raven
@lucslawyer: Fuck you very much.
WaterGirl
@lucslawyer: I don’t buy that we are in Iraq or Afghanistan to protect our freedom, and I thought from day one that both wars were terrible mistakes.
But I sure as hell respect anyone who is willing to put their life on the line for something they believe in, regardless of whether I agree with their view of the war itself.
LT
You don’t honor people who died in wars by overusing he word “hero” in such a way that distorts the reality of war to make more people die in wars. That is Hayes’ stated point, and it’s a very good one.
And even without the context update, DougJ, this is just not sound:
What about people who are drafted and don’t want to be there? And what about people who refuse to serve in wars, for reasons of conscience, religion…? (They would be heroes, in my mind, which would undercut your reasoning.)
And what the fuck about Nazis? They served in war.
LT
@Aloysius:
A new low-water mark for BJuice.
Linnaeus
Looks like Chris Hayes has apologized:
I think it’s rather unfortunate that he felt pressed to do this. Hayes brought up the issue in a very nuanced, and I think very respectful and empathetic way. But our culture doesn’t seem to want to deal with the difficult questions Hayes raised.
Kyle
@Mnemosyne:
A friend of mine is a draftee Vietnam combat infantry veteran who thankfully got through it without injuries or mental issues. The mistreatment that bugged him when he came home was from the VFW and American Legion, where the WW2 vets looked down on his generation for losing “their” war. And he went to a very liberal college on his return; he got a few sideways looks until his military haircut grew out, after which he blended in and no-one bothered him.
rickstershierpa
As Paul Fussell wrote many times using the word like “heroes” should always be used in an ironic fashion. Most of us soldiers think we have only been doing a job, a nasty, dirty job, but a job. Professor Fussell may have been less shocked by WWII if he had been acquainted to his brother in spirit, who like Fussell came back from the foreign country of combat to tell us what it is like:
(From “What I Saw at Shiloh”…There were men enough; all dead apparently, except one, who lay near where I had halted my platoon to await the slower movement of the line–a Federal sergeant, variously hurt, who had been a fine giant in his time. He lay face upward, taking in his breath in convulsive, rattling snorts, and blowing it out in sputters of froth which crawled creamily down his cheeks, piling itself alongside his neck and ears. A bullet had clipped a groove in his skull, above the temple; from this the brain protruded in bosses, dropping off in flakes and strings. I had not previously known one could get on, even in this unsatisfactory fashion, with so little brain. One of my men whom I knew for a womanish fellow, asked if he should put his bayonet through him. Inexpressibly shocked by the cold-blooded proposal, I told him I thought not; it was unusual, and too many were looking….”
mclaren
If you think people who burn brown babies for a living are “heroes,” DougJ, boy, have you ever found a home with the obots.
Looking forward to your stint with the 72nd Police Battallion when you dance on the corpses of pregnant women an pose for pics.
David Koch
Chris Hayes caved.
He issued an apology.
All you guys defending him — he just cut you loose.
http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/28/11924150-statement-from-chris-hayes
Hayes always screams about standing on principle, making no comprises, and letting the chips fall where they may, and then he falls apart like a cheap suit when his fat paycheck was placed at risk.
Typical professional left.
moderateindy
I have to agree with Hayes. Putting anyone who served, or even died, in the hero category seems akin to giving every kid a trophy just for showing up.
I have little doubt that through the years many soldiers have died while cowering in a foxhole, or running away. Yet they too get hero status? Casualties? yes, unfortunate victims? sure, but perhaps we should save the tag hero for those that did heroic things.
The labeling of everyone that joins the military as brave or heroic, is just one more way to romanticize the warrior lifestyle. Society has always done this, but of course America does it on steroids. How often do you see the ultra liberal hollywood pinkos do films critical of the military? Of course the Pentagon adds to this by lending productions of military related films weapons and equipment only to films with a pro military message which makes it cost prohibitive to make an anti-war flick. But still even the liberal culture that is hollywood makes being in the military super macho and heroic.
Putting everyone that joins the military on a pedestal merely helps to entice some to join the Military and keep the ability for the likes of Cheney to pursue their idiocy. I hate the idea of the draft, but it would certainly temper the American public’s support for a debacle like Iraq right from the start, and not just after years of loss. A volunteer military makes for a lot more apathy on the part of society at large. Doing things, like designating basically anyone that served as heroic simply adds to the overall attraction for young men to join the army, which is a bad thing.
On the same note, let’s quit referring to soldiers that went to wars like Iraq or Grenada, or nam as having fought for our freedom, or fought to protect our country. Our Freedom was never threatened by any of these countries. They posed only the most nebulous of threats. In fact, our freedoms were compromised by our own government in the name of protecting ourselves, not by any actual actions that Iraq had taken or were ever likely to take against us.
With all that being said, we should still be grateful to pretty much everybody that decides to serve. After all it’s not like most of them have any say in the policies enacted by the Pentagon and the politicians. And you can’t really blame them for falling for the hype that they are heroes that are serving their country, and protecting the country’s freedoms and people.
Joe W.
I like this new Serious and Centrist DougJ. To hell with Chris Hayes!
jonst
I’m with Hayes….hostage video or not.