All Along the Watchtower
I think we all missed this victory for freedom of religion that happened earlier this week:
In a ruling that appears headed toward appeal, a federal judge has ruled that Washington state cannot force pharmacies to sell Plan B or other emergency contraceptives.The state’s true goal in adopting the rules at issue was not to promote the timely access to medicine, but to suppress religious objections by druggists who believe that such drugs can have an effect tantamount to abortion, U.S. District Judge Ronald Leighton said in his ruling Wednesday.
Tebow and his only begotten son Bieber help us if this keeps up, because we’re going to have a medical profession full of delicate conscientious objectors whose heartfelt beliefs keep them from doing their goddam job. Where does this idiocy end? If you’re a Jehovah’s Witness, whose religion forbids blood transfusions, and you want to become a trauma surgeon, will some federal judge support your right to let your patients bleed to death?
Also, too, it shouldn’t surprise anyone that Leighton is a GWB appointee. All the recent Senate obstruction has one goal: to limit Obama to as few appointments as possible so the next Republican President can pack the federal judiciary with more Leightons.
Mix,
That is cool and all, but this will never hold up.
I mean it has been a few days now, and the world has not stopped. The next GOP president you say? How is that dog and pony show going? Last time I check World Net Daily says that 20% of GOP voters are voting Obama…
February 25th, 2012 at 8:43 am
Ethel the Extremely Annoying Godbotherer running the pharmacy at Walmart is not a medical professional. Just sayin’
February 25th, 2012 at 8:44 am
“No, I’m sorry, but I won’t sell Vaseline to you. You look like a sexual deviant, and might want to use it as a lubricant.
And no, you can’t have any toothpaste. You probably want fresh breath to kiss someone – and we know where THAT can lead!
Get out of MY store!
What?
Sure, I don’t own this pharmacy. But my conscience is MY boss, not some government or corporation.
God has designated people like me to be his moral judges, and I think you’re immoral, so, get out! GET OUT! GET OUT NOW!”
February 25th, 2012 at 8:45 am
Sometimes it doesn’t work. Wasn’t the judge who ruled DOMA unconstitutional a GWB appointee as well?
Also, too, I think refusing blood transfusion is different from morning after pill. One saves lives, the other you can get from another pharmacy.
February 25th, 2012 at 8:47 am
Hmmm…
Let me try it again without the brand name, to see if that gets me out of moderation:
“No, I’m sorry, but I won’t sell any petroleum jelly to you. You look like a sexual deviant, and might want to use it as a lubricant.
And no, you can’t have any toothpaste. You probably want fresh breath to kiss someone – and we know where THAT can lead!
Get out of MY store!
What?
Sure, I don’t own this pharmacy. But my conscience is MY boss, not some government or corporation.
God has designated people like me to be his moral judges, and I think you’re immoral, so, get out! GET OUT! GET OUT NOW!”
February 25th, 2012 at 8:48 am
mistermix, why is my comment in moderation?
February 25th, 2012 at 8:49 am
I’m awaiting “moderation.”
That’s ok, people have been waiting for years to see some “moderation” from me.
February 25th, 2012 at 8:49 am
I’m waiting for an insurance company to claim a “religious objection” against covering cancer treatments because of its deeply held moral objections to decreased profits.
February 25th, 2012 at 8:49 am
@Anya:
Me too!
February 25th, 2012 at 8:51 am
Just imagine, join the Christian Science church and you could avoid doing any work. Nothing says religious freedom better than being able to mooch off of society and give nothing back in return, don’t ya know.
February 25th, 2012 at 8:53 am
I released all the comments from moderation. I think it has to do with “pharmacy” because of Viagra spam.
February 25th, 2012 at 8:58 am
@mistermix:
Thanks.
I figured it was the brand name, not the “p” word.
February 25th, 2012 at 8:59 am
@c u n d gulag: All things in moderation.
February 25th, 2012 at 9:00 am
I read this decision and found it pretty persuasive. The gist is that if you really have a rule that pharmacies have to sell everything, no exceptions, that’s probably fine. But if you allow opt-outs for all kinds of reasons (“we’d have to do extra paperwork if we sold that drug”) you can’t decide that a religious reason is the one and only reason you won’t tolerate.
February 25th, 2012 at 9:09 am
Gee I guess farmasists didn’t have consciences before W became President.
February 25th, 2012 at 9:10 am
So I assume this now means that Muslims can refuse to swipe groceries such as pork/bacon etc for the same reason as this judge claims.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/.....272483/pg1
I am so tired of these holier than thou people whose ultimate goal is to run other people’s lives.
In this case, if they are against abortions – then don’t have one!
February 25th, 2012 at 9:10 am
@Anya: If you live deep in the bible belt, or in a rural area, good luck going to another pharmacy and getting your Plan B.
@dr. bloor: Well, I’d rather have her treated as a medical professional—that is, someone with duties and a code of conduct rather than a pill-pushing clerk—so she’ll do her fucking job and hand out the Plan B when necessary.
February 25th, 2012 at 9:11 am
Where does this idiocy end?
guvemint run medical institutions and the fearsome, spin-curdling, insanity producing soschializm ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
February 25th, 2012 at 9:16 am
@Frank:
Can an islamic banker refuse to aprove any interest bearing loans on moral grounds?
Can an Orthodox Jewish waiter refuse to serve you a bacon cheeseburger?
Can a Christian Scientist phlebotomist refuse to do blood work.
Can an Evangelical fact checker claim a religious exemption against telling the fucking truth about anything?
February 25th, 2012 at 9:24 am
@c u n d gulag:
Dancing!
February 25th, 2012 at 9:26 am
I think you have the roles reversed.
February 25th, 2012 at 9:26 am
Incidentally, one of the major achievements in surgery technology was created by a surgeon specifically for JWs. Ronald Lapin was a pioneer in creating “bloodless” surgery techniques that are still used and heralded today, even for people who aren’t JWs. Although, Lapin himself was an Israeli Jew.
February 25th, 2012 at 9:28 am
Really, this is probably an issue that “the market” could handle reasonably well – just send a flurry of “I no longer do business with the Walgreens on Poplar Street because the farmacist (to avoid moderation) refuses to dispense the legal medication I went there to buy.” That coupled with general boycotts would get the “conscientious objectors” out of the profession in a hurry.
February 25th, 2012 at 9:34 am
I agree. But in the example mistermix uses of a JW surgeon, he kind of gets it backwards. JWs have been fighting in court for years to have their stance on blood transfusions recognized for THEMSELVES. In other words, they want to make sure that some holier than thou doctor doesn’t force them to do something they don’t want to do and tell them how to run their lives.
I’m not so sure that given this stance that a JW surgeon would try to force his beliefs onto someone else. That’s kind of antithetical to what they’ve been fighting for. Then again, I’m not really sure there are even all that many JWs in the medical profession. They tend to frown upon higher education (one of their many less charming traits).
February 25th, 2012 at 9:38 am
My father’s a pharmacist and a former member of the state licensing board. He’s so far to the right he makes Sean Hannity look like Dennis Kucinich. And he’s horrified by this idea that pharmacists should be able to refuse to fill legal prescriptions based on religious belief. In his words ‘if your religion keeps you from doing your job, find another job.”
February 25th, 2012 at 9:39 am
@mistermix: I am not disagreeing with that. I was only pointing out the difference between the two.
February 25th, 2012 at 9:46 am
Any Pharmacist who believes that should have their license revoked for not understanding the basic science behind their jobs.
Does Liberty University have Pharmacy program?
February 25th, 2012 at 9:56 am
@Frank: Something similar actually happened in Minneapolis-St Paul airport where “Muslim Cab Drivers Refuse to Transport Alcohol, and Dogs.”
When the cabbies took their case to court to challenge the fines that was imposed on them by the Airport Commission, the cabbies lost.
February 25th, 2012 at 9:58 am
If we could start today it would take 40 years to clear out the shit that GOP Presidents and Senate obstructionism has put in place. There would have to be at least another 40 years after that to undo the damage these legal nightmares have foisted on us. That can not even start happening unless the GOP as it exists dies or the American voters wake up to what is being done to them and throws them out entirely.
The second is never going to happen, if Boy Blunder & His Super Friends didn’t end the love affair with GOP bullshit nothing will. That leave the GOP taking itself out. I thought several times before that it was going to do that but it has not yet. This might be the year, thought. That means maybe, just maybe, my great grandkids could live in an America worth having – or whats left of it.
February 25th, 2012 at 10:00 am
@Anya:
So I assume if both of these cases eventually went to the USSC, these two cases would be treated the same one way or the other.
February 25th, 2012 at 10:08 am
This Leighton is more than a neanderthal. He also ruled to reinstate Margaret Witt in the US military, and did so gracefully and sympathetically while leaving no wiggle room for the US military to avoid reinstating her.
I disagree strongly with his ruling here, but he’s not just a blind right wing acolyte.
February 25th, 2012 at 10:16 am
@John S.: At the risk of flogging the expired equine, note that the original post specified “trauma surgeon”—one who would routinely treat patients who’ve already lost a lot of blood &/or with surgical needs too pressing to allow preparation for “bloodless surgery.”
February 25th, 2012 at 10:17 am
@Frank: Wouldn’t that be interesting? I hope the cabbies or their lawyers are following the Plan B ruling. It would put the Catholic SCOTUS in an awkward situation.
February 25th, 2012 at 10:18 am
@J.D. Rhoades: That is just what I was about to write. Agree completely. These conscientious objectors need to have the courage of conviction and quit their well-paying jobs.
February 25th, 2012 at 10:22 am
The Scotus, Scalia wrote the leading decision, is clear on this issue. I don’t remember the name of the case but when Native Americans wanted a religious exemption from laws that made peyote illegal, Fat Tony ruled “tough shit! The law is neutral as to religion and applies to everyone equally.”* Will Scalia, and at least four other justices, overule himself?
February 25th, 2012 at 10:23 am
@gocart mozart: That’s a perfect setup for this if it does get to the Supremes. Now I hope it does.
February 25th, 2012 at 10:25 am
@gocart mozart:
Can’t they simply just pull a Gore v Bush and claim that the ruling should not be regarded as a precedent and only apply to this case? Or heck, only apply to Catholics?
February 25th, 2012 at 10:28 am
If true, those ‘druggists’ need to retire or go back to Pharmacy School.
Plan B prevents an zygote from implanting itself onto the uterine wall. Abortion is when an implanted zygote (fetus, embryo) is removed from the uterine wall.
This is ‘truthiness’ at it’s worse. If passing a zygote that has not implanted is now an ‘abortion’ it’s time to start shaking our fists at nature and nature’s creator … Cause fully 33% of all fertilized eggs never implant in the uterine wall.
February 25th, 2012 at 10:30 am
I suspect Washington State can re-write the law. Massachusetts has one, but it’s on the licensing end. The phamacies have to follow the stocking list from the licensing board, and refusal to fill or dispense means that the individual pharmacist (or, with recurrent offenses, the pharmacy) will lose his/her license.
The dispensaries at Catholic hospitals cannot sell to the public any more, because they can’t comply with the list (no Plan B, no pharmacy license).
February 25th, 2012 at 10:31 am
@dr. bloor: You may want to check Ethel’s business card. You’ll very likely find a PhD after her name. You can’t be a farmacist without going to graduate school. Techs? That’s another thing entirely, but unless you’re state’s completely different than any I’ve been in the person running the show needs to be credentialed.
@Schlemizel:
It is happening. The fact that we’ve been able to openly mock the downward purity spiral of the GOP this entire election cycle is just an opening salvo. Give it a few years and generational shifting moral standards and racial drift will damn the GOP to the dustbin of some rich prats study. Either that or cause Civil War II. I’m rooting for option one myself.
*And just for the record John, get a better spam filter. If it’s really that much of a problem do what LGF did and just implement commenter accounts already.
February 25th, 2012 at 10:34 am
Here it is: Employment Division, Department of Human Resources of Oregon v. Smith
http://www.law.cornell.edu/sup.....72_ZO.html
February 25th, 2012 at 10:39 am
@Anya: “Another pharmacy”’s not always a feasible option. In the small town where I went to elementary school, there was one pharmacy in town, and two the nearest alternatives were twenty and fifty miles away if both of them were “conscientious objectors” too, you’d have to travel over 100 miles for the next chance.
Now this was out in the bush in Canada, where the socialist society has made birth control obligatory beginning at age 8 years, but there are no doubt many isolated communities in the US where the situation is similar. Especially if the local hospital is controlled by the Catholic Church.
February 25th, 2012 at 10:47 am
@gocart mozart: If I remember right, it’s a bit more complicated. In one case, I believe where the issue was just the right of native Americans to use peyote in their religious ceremonies, the court found in their favor. It was a subsequent case, when a couple of guys got fired from their jobs for showing up under the influence of the peyote that they took in their ceremonies that Scalia wrote the opinion ruling against the guys who were fired.
I may be misremembering, and I don’t have time to check.
February 25th, 2012 at 10:51 am
jehovah’s witness trauma surgeon?
not likely. the j.w.s discourage education outside the indocrination issued from their governing body. too much danger that education encourages free thinking. they prefer their adherents to be walking tape recorders who torment the rest of us with eternal house calls.
February 25th, 2012 at 10:56 am
Mistermix, as a fellow Buffalonian I am here to tell you that you’ve got this all wrong. You really need to respect people’s right to conscience, especially when in comes to the Catholic faith. We’re talking about serious beliefs held by serious people and they always honor their calling, you know, like this:
“Cardinal Anthony J. Bevilacqua ordered aides to shred a 1994 memo that identified 35 Archdiocese of Philadelphia priests suspected of sexually abusing children, according to a new court filing.”
What’s not to respect? I think you need to head down to The Founding Fathers—the oldest and best bar in Buffalo—and think deeply about this.
February 25th, 2012 at 11:13 am
@jim filyaw: They could always do what one of my cousins is doing: a double major in “missionary work” and “early childcare” at some backwater Christian college (i.e. nosy housewife). I’m real proud of her…
February 25th, 2012 at 11:15 am
If this is correct maybe the state was too clever trying to tip-toe around religion. Could the state have argued the 1st amendment rights of the consumer trumped those of the druggist?
February 25th, 2012 at 11:26 am
Last I checked, Christ was against all types of killing which includes war, state executions and killing for self defense. So why can’t this ruling be used to prevent trhe US fighting a war that kills people? That judge is a total asswipe. Hopefully, this asswipe judge dies because a MD won’t be able to aid him since it would violate their beliefs.
February 25th, 2012 at 11:29 am
@Auldblackjack:
Just as a point of order, there is absolutely no—zero—evidence that Plan B interferes with implantation in any way. The only thing it does is suppress ovulation, which means that the egg and sperm never meet at all. That’s why the timing is so critical with Plan B and why it’s only about 75% effective—if the egg has already been fertilized, Plan B has no effect.
In fact, the whole “the Pill prevents implantation!” idea has always been theoretical and there’s no direct evidence it has that effect at all.
February 25th, 2012 at 11:38 am
You know, it’s really fucking irritating to try and have a conversation about medicine when certain words are forbidden.
February 25th, 2012 at 11:39 am
You got primary source backing for that statement, or are we going to follow the “Jesus was a peaceful, long-haired, blue-eyed German hippie” model here?
If we are great, I can back the peaceful buhddist otherwise please read the bible again because I think you missed a few chapters the first go. Jesus, if he existed, was a roman era Jew. We need to remember to judge him by those societal standards, not ours.
February 25th, 2012 at 11:53 am
[...] are being granted to pharmacists who don’t want to fill birth control prescriptions. As Mistermix wrote, Tebow and his only begotten son Bieber help us if this keeps up, because we’re going to have a [...]
February 25th, 2012 at 11:59 am
@Dustin: “buhddist”.
Ow, I guess I figured out one of the words my two-year old screwed up in the auto-correct listings the other day. lol.
February 25th, 2012 at 12:00 pm
It should be noted, perhaps endlessly pointed out, that plan B is not an abortifacient and in fact does nothing if a pregnant woman takes it.
Every time this characterization is made but goes unchallenged, reality and truth take a hit.
February 25th, 2012 at 12:10 pm
@Tim in SF: Quite frankly that’s a minor point. It deals with scientific reality, not religious conviction. Regular logic doesn’t apply, and debating against them as if it does is a dead-end.
February 25th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
Isn’t it really odd that the Republican Party is now obsessed with “freedom of religion” when they are the ones who have opposed the building of mosques in several communities? They have devoted years to the idea that Muslims are inherently dangerous and must be suppressed. They have even boycotted companies that chose to advertise on a television series that presented American Muslims as normal people.
Of course, there is a distinction between “religious tolerance” and “religious freedom”, but it’s a remarkably subtle one. And allowing houses of worship in communities would seem to be firmly associated with freedom to worship.
Republicans were also the ones who completely freaked out when a Hindu made the Senate invocation in July of 2007. “Christian patriots” disrupted the prayer to save us all from this horror.
But, yeah, “religious freedom” – for Christians only.
February 25th, 2012 at 12:25 pm
Lighten up on the Christian Scientists, they aren’t the problem … actual CS followers are working within the medical industry in the first place.
The problem is with the hypocrites. As usual.
February 25th, 2012 at 12:27 pm
@Dustin: “You got primary source backing for that statement…”
Check the Gospels, Dustin … it’s filled with instructions of peace: blessed are the peacemakers, do not resist evil, turn the other cheek, live-by-the-sword-die-by-the-sword, don’t judge others, do unto others as you would have them do unto you…
Maybe I missed your point?
February 25th, 2012 at 12:31 pm
@Uncle Cosmo:
At the risk of calling you an idiot, you may want to actually research “bloodless” surgery methods and their application in trauma settings. If you had, you would have refrained from making smug comments that have no basis in reality.
Idiot.
February 25th, 2012 at 12:51 pm
Well, Gore would’ve appointed him too…or something
February 25th, 2012 at 1:21 pm
@ornery_curmudgeon: Kinda, but you’re falling into the same trap as most of the faithful. EVERYTHING we know about Christ is second-hand, at best. Some are outright fabrications from later times, others are retellings of older myths. The actual evidence of a historical Jesus, when held to the same standards as any other topic, are so scant that it can easily be argued the man never actually existed.
Now if we’re talking the modern day “peace on earth, good will” Jesus caricature, that’s great. He’s a guy we should all want to emulate. But once we start basing morality on the book that claims to chronicle his life we end up with guys like Santorum.
February 25th, 2012 at 1:22 pm
@Anya:
GHWB
the guy who was primaried for not be right wing enough.
February 25th, 2012 at 1:23 pm
On the plus side, Jehovah’s Witnesses’ objections to blood transfusions have lead to some interesting new surgical techniques as surgeons figure out ways to work on them with minimal blood loss possible. So, while I agree with the main point (if the job would interfere with your conscience, find another profession), let’s not be too harsh on the JWs and let’s not forget that their objections typically only hurt themselves, but sometimes help us.
February 25th, 2012 at 1:49 pm
@Mnemosyne:
People tend to misinterpret the observation that the uterine lining is inhospitable in BCP users… it’s true that the environment isn’t optimal, but that’s because the uterine lining only builds up once ovulation occurs. No ovulation, no progesterone surge from the same follicle (corpus luteum) that released the egg, and therefore no hormonal trigger that makes the uterus implantation-friendly. It makes perfect sense—why would our bodies have a separate mechanism to prepare for pregnancy when there’s no chance of it? It’s also why most women’s periods (technically, they’re not even real menstrual periods, but involve period-like bleeding) are lighter when on hormonal birth control.
Could an egg theoretically be released and find a less-than-adequate bedding ground? Sure, and there are plenty of women who have that happen completely naturally, which actually indicates that the whole hormonal process is off somehow. Low progesterone levels plague most of the women in my family, in degrees ranging from needing a boost from OTC creams to full-fledged inability to carry a pregnancy to term.
February 25th, 2012 at 1:56 pm
YES YES YES that is 100% correct. This is the big danger of Obama not winning a second term. They can’t stall on this forever. Obama MUST win a second term so we don’t get stuck with the nation put in permanent “reverse” thanks to a reactionary, stacked federal bench.
PLEASE, more blog posts on this. This issue needs to get way more airtime.
February 25th, 2012 at 2:08 pm
@Cermet: In fairness (and I say this as someone who disagrees strongly with “conscience clauses”)—conscientious objectors have existed since the Civil War- now the difference of course is that they don’t exist in a volunteer military because unlike the jackasses here they don’t sign on for something the find morally reprehensible.
February 25th, 2012 at 2:33 pm
@John S.:
Along with their “right” to sentence their minor children to die, based on the parents “moral opposition” to blood transfusions.
February 25th, 2012 at 3:14 pm
What’s to stop Dominionist pharmacists from refusing to treat anyone but Dominionists? Or Catholic hospitals (and there are tons) from forcing conversions before treatment? I may be taking it to the extreme but I really see no difference between that and what this judge just ruled. Either way, religion is trumping the Constitution.
February 25th, 2012 at 4:11 pm
February 25th, 2012 at 4:47 pm
My response to your shitty mod filter, as always, is to fuck with it until I get it to work properly. So here goes. If you don’t like the clutter, then fix your crappy filter, it was written by an eighth grader. //
February 25th, 2012 at 8:24 pm
We had this discussion here about 5-6 years ago, and I will say the same thing I said then: The first duty of pharmacy is to dispense. When pharmacists decide that their religious views trump their role as pharmacists, then pharmacists no longer add value to the healthcare equation and they will be circumvented and eventually replaced. Pharmacists make a boatload of money, mainly for counting pills and sticking on labels … because they are highly trained in the medical aspects of the job.
February 25th, 2012 at 8:24 pm
We had this discussion here about 5-6 years ago, and I will say the same thing I said then: The first duty of is to dispense. When decide that their religious views trump their role as , then no longer add value to the healthcare equation and they will be circumvented and eventually replaced. make a boatload of money, mainly for counting pills and sticking on labels … because they are highly trained in the medical aspects of the job.
—edit: Ah, so you have a mod filter that rejects any use of the standard term for a druggist. That’s really very clever. What a clever blog you have. Really. Very intelligent. Okay, I know how to post my statement now. You can delete all the forgoing posts of mine from here back, or not, I don’t care.
February 25th, 2012 at 8:26 pm
Here is my full actual post, modified to handle the absurd and incredibly stupid piece of crap mod filter:
We had this discussion here about 5-6 years ago, and I will say the same thing I said then: The first duty of the druggist is to dispense. When druggists decide that their religious views trump their role as druggists, then druggists no longer add value to the healthcare equation and they will be circumvented and eventually replaced. Druggists make a boatload of money, mainly for counting pills and sticking on labels … because they are highly trained in the medical aspects of the job. But most dispensing of meds is rote, routine, and something that a machine could do pretty easily. The druggist is supposed to be a check on the system, but when he becomes an obstacle to the system … his role is going to go away. And if that is road we are going down, the sooner that role goes away, the better. We are not going to be a country of two bit faith healers and controlling meddlers trying to steer medicine according to their particular church teachings.
February 25th, 2012 at 8:31 pm
You know, I wonder, if I went to work for a drug store that sells hair cutting paraphernalia, or ham, or various other products that I can find scriptural warnings against, and refused to sell those products, would I be fired?
Hair cutting – I could refuse to sell scissors to women, but not to men based on: 1 Corinthians 11:13-16 – “Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.”
I could refuse to sell gold, jewelry and make-up, panty hose, and a gazillion different hygiene products based on: 1 Timothy 2:9-10 – “Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.”
I could refuse to sell art materials and cameras based on the commandment against creating images (graven only? are we really sure?)
I could refuse to sell meat products out of the refrigerated cases due to the Levitical admonishments against eating cloven hoofed animals. I could also refuse to sell crackers and breads that contain yeast.
I could refuse to work on Sunday due to it being the Christian Sabbath. If they have me scheduled, oh well… I guess they forgot I don’t work on the sabbath.
If I did these things, should I expect them to allow me to keep my job? I’m just curious. LOL
February 25th, 2012 at 9:33 pm
@John S.:
You’re right about not seeing a JW trauma surgeon. There are very few physicians out there that are JWs, as usually someone that has learned to think critically at that level does not succumb to the manipulative mind-control antics of the Watchtower Society. Aside from that, one cannot be a “good” JW and pursue secular education. If you do, you might learn to think for yourself, and they don’t want that. But, you’re wrong about a JW GIVING blood to a patient. For example, a JW nurse will not hang blood. I spent 33 years as a JW, and happen to work in health care, so I know very well what I’m talking about in this area. By and large the people are great, it’s the establishment that makes the group a cult.
February 26th, 2012 at 1:48 pm