I agree with ABL that Obama did good, but as I said earlier, I would have been grateful to him for trying had he failed. I listened to the debate closely, and I’m still convinced there was one person in this who was looking out for my interests, and oddly enough, it was the President. I don’t ordinarily feel as if the President of the United States is my one and only advocate, but I did this time.
I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but I do think it’s important to set the record straight on what happened here. Information that might have been useful for the public to have was omitted or ignored for nearly a week, and that omission might have affected the outcome. The health care law is the biggest piece of domestic legislation many people are going to see in their lifetimes. Every single person in this country has an interest in it. Shouldn’t the debate about a piece of that law be more substantive than a weeks worth of screaming on cable? This context is important for people to know. The fact that the bishops were planning a religious liberty campaign for 7 months prior to the announcement of the rule. The fact that many of them are already complying with state law that tracks the rule. Would it matter to people? I don’t know. But shouldn’t they decide that?
Although Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan of New York has been leading the national fight against requiring Roman Catholic hospitals, universities and charities to cover birth control in their health insurance plans for employees and students, some Catholic institutions in his own diocese and others throughout New York State have for 10 years been complying with state law mandating precisely that coverage.
Is the archbishop a big states’ rights person? Is that why he went absolutely crazy over a federal rule that tracks a state rule he’s been complying with for more than ten years? I know there is a difference on the federal case law on this issue, and that’s what conservative lawyers are seizing on, but what does that have to do with anything? Fact is, the lead warrior on this has been complying with an identical rule for a decade. Shouldn’t he have to explain what’s going on with that?
I’m going to “campaign school” in Cleveland tomorrow. It’s a workshop put on by the Ohio Democratic Party, and it’s for people who are involved with local campaigns. I think I’ll try to see what some actual Ohio Democrats think about the whole birth control war, and maybe find out how far the misinformation has spread.
WereBear
Yes, when I found out this law had been followed without a peep for the LAST TWELVE YEARS I sensed a disturbance in the Force.
Somewhere, a million assholes puckered up…
Maude
I was waiting for you to speak to this, Kay.
Ignorance seems to be the rule of the day.
Obama did the right thing and yet it is He Caved.
At school tomorrow, sit still and no spitballs.
Kay
@Maude:
I like anything held near a great lake :)
It’s snowing like crazy here, so hope they don’t cancel.
Mino
We’ll never know the real dance that went on here.
But MSNBC really looked bad. And incompetent.
The only bright spot was that the Bishop on Morning Joe probably guaranteed Obama at least one additional percentage point in the election.
danimal
Kay, you’re a treasure. Your passion and intelligence shine through in your politics and your blogging, and I truly appreciate the integrity of your posts.
makewi
New York State law states that Religious organizations can provide prescription coverage that does not include contraceptives.
Here is the law.
In fact, here are all the laws.
beltane
Obama is the first president of the US to be raised by a feminist mother and it shows. A lot of men, a least in the media, don’t get this issue. Well, the President is a better man than all those men.
JPL
Gotta say I’m glad that the President was able to cave. I’m also glad that he was able to compromise. The most important key to his speech though was that birth control is available to those that want it. ALSO,TOO
kay
@makewi:
Chuck Butcher
The “D” school should be interesting, I hope you enjoy.
Linda Featheringill
@Kay:
It takes quite a bit of snow to shut down Cleveland.
Weather dot come says Cleveland might get as much as three inches tonight, four inches tomorrow, and another inch on Sunday. These are maximums.
Not to worry. It’ll be fine.
Villago Delenda Est
The thing is, Obama got these assholes to fly their “say no to birth control” flag, and then he pulled the rug out from under their feet and pwned them all.
It’s an absolutely losing issue, and they walked right into the trap, the morans.
Now the slime that constitutes the beanie brigade are sputtering helplessly.
Gin & Tonic
@Mino: I agree on the MSNBC angle. I really wish Rachel would rip Tweety and Larry a new asshole tonight, but that doesn’t seem to be her style, and she’s probably just too much of a team player.
Spiffy McBang
“Would it matter to people? I don’t know. But shouldn’t they decide that?”
In a perfect world, yeah. Given the extensive collection of nutters that would gladly take contraceptive services out behind the woodshed with a .45, however, and how loudly they tend to speak when riled, I wouldn’t be shocked if widespread knowledge of these state laws led to a cry for them to be repealed on top of this “Catholic-demanded change” to the health care law.
For once, I’ll gladly take how things went and not wish for anything different to have happened.
kay
@Linda Featheringill:
I love driving. It’s the only time I sit in one place and listen to music.
Spiffy McBang
@Gin & Tonic: I wish they’d just put Rachel on for four hours and send Tweety, Ed, and Larry to the minors. Even if her ability was spread evenly across that time, such that each hour was only a quarter as good as her regular show, it would still trounce what any of them usually put out.
Baud
To be fair, there were a few other Democrats who stepped up to the plate. But, yeah, there were also a lot of people did not.
kay
@makewi:
makewi, I love you like a brother, but I’m not spending three hours reading state statutes and a supreme court case. I’m going to rely on the church official.
Why you gotta trick people? Just launch the religious liberty campaign and drop the subterfuge.
makewi
@kay:
Source
I’d be curious to know what the applicable law is then. Is Fordham for profit?
makewi
@kay:
We have different definitions of tricking people I guess. It’s not much of a trick, IMO, to provide sources to the actual laws in question so that people can see for themselves.
Midnight Marauder
I love it when Makewi attempts to troll. The staggering level of failure is beyond delicious.
General Stuck
Catholic Bishops are like Generals in the military. Once they get to that rank, they are more politician than anything else, at least the right wing hierarchy that has dominated the church since John Paul. It would not surprise me one iota to learn they are coordinating this shit with GOP pols and thinktank/pundits for maximum effect, similar to Komen et al, all of it to undermine the hated ACA and the Kenyan Usurper The fact that once again, the skinny black prez cleaned their clocks in the pol thunderdome, will only make them more desperate and too clever by half. Baby Seals.
Mnemosyne
@makewi:
Catholic-affiliated hospitals and universities do not qualify as religious organizations under the law, only actual churches. Work on your reading comprehension.
CT Voter
If you have a moment, and wish to, please share your observations about the effects of the misinformation war waged on voters by the Catholic Church and the GOP with a pronounced assist from the media.
J. Michael Neal
Is it just me, or does, “The shot slips in through the five hole,” take on a different connotation when watching women’s hockey?
Spiffy McBang
@J. Michael Neal: …just you.
Mnemosyne
@makewi:
You should probably read your own “gotcha” quotes more carefully.
poco
@danimal: I totally agree. Kay on this issue has been a total treasure. Love all her posts.
General Stuck
Deep thoughts
What is wrong with this poll graph?
kay
Makewi, what does getting contraception on campus have to with anything at all?
Why weren’t people told the bishops planned a campaign based on religious liberty and same sex marriage, and simply substituted birth control?
7 months. That’s not a firestorm. It’s a planned burn.
Chuck Butcher
I ordinarily try to give Matthews some credit as a political observer versus a political actor, but this time around he pissed me off no end.
Martin
Have a little more faith in our guy. Specifically, have some more faith in his wonkiness, and in Sebelius. I mentioned the other day that there were ways out of this by just changing how the benefit was paid for and that’s exactly what he did – and he even took a more aggressive path than I had suggested he could take.
Jules
I don’t know about anyone else, but I am offended and sick to death of women and our health care needs being treated as if it is not real “health care” because we can have babies and having babies involves sex.
I’m just tired of this shit.
Mino
@kay: I think this loss rather neutralizes them on the marriage issue,too. Win, win.
General Stuck
@Martin:
We been through this routine before to offer fig leafs with shuffling the dollars around a hissy fit by conservatives on abortion and now contraception. The Stupak nonsense. I always heard elephants have long memories, reckon not, at least the political sub species.
SIA
As someone said on an earlier thread, heads are exploding at The Corner. Sweet, delicious, impotent wingnut tears of frustration. Mmmmm.
David Koch
@beltane: carefully, the progressive betters are gonna blacklist you for saying something nice about black jimmy carter.
James King
I really find this strange. In the UK, the Catholic hierarchy (which is nowhere near as vocally socially conservative anyway) would shy away from such open and essentially partisan politics in an election year. People just don’t find it acceptable for religious organisations to meddle in politics, even though we have bishops voting in the House of Lords. Weird.
Villago Delenda Est
@SIA:
I feel their pain. Really, I do.
Dang, need to take the Schadenfreude meter in for another recalibration. This is getting expensive!
Danny
You’d think that it would be natural to have mostly women debate, if the topic is women’s health. Call me crazy…
Petorado
I can’t wait for Tom Cruise and the Scientologists to fight for an exemption from paying for epidurals during childbirth.
As if we needed any more indications of right wing hypocrisy, this BS around an employer negating an employees healthcare decisions is what their whole “death panel” crap was all about: some bureaucratic a-hole coming between a patient’s informed decision and their doctor. From henceforth, we will have to live with Catholic birth panels (“Sorry Missy, if you’re having sex, you should be knocked-up by now.”)
Thanks Bishops, I’d almost forgotten how out of touch the Church is. Maybe your businesses should advertise how you don’t hire sluts and hussies who would dare to have sex while in your employ. That should help you fill your employee ranks.
Suffern ACE
So if they’re going to do Same Sex Marriage, why not do that? I’m trying to figure out who they think they’re going to gain from going after adult women’s contraceptives? According to Stuck’s poll, mainline Protestants?
Villago Delenda Est
@James King:
Well, they’ve been conditioned by four fucking centuries of getting their asses kicked and their heads lopped off to keep their pieholes shut.
SIA
@Villago Delenda Est: I know. It’s sad…AND THEY’RE AIN’T NUTHIN’ THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT!
Bwah! BWAHAHAHAHHA !
PIGL
@Villago Delenda Est:I think there is an excellent plan buried in your remarks, my lord. May I hope that erelong t’will be elaborated fully and then put into the most rigorous possible practice?
Mnemosyne
@SIA:
Hey, we all saw how vicious Sebelius was when she called out Chuck Todd for not sneezing properly. Sca-ary.
Scott
I find it disturbing that this is another case of large institutions claiming their freedom is being imposed upon but not on people. Large religious institutions have religious liberty but to heck with individual religious liberty. Free speech for corporations; not so much for people. Corporations are people; churches are people. People are not people. I’m waiting for Scientologists to claim they can imprison and brainwash people in the name of religious freedom.
SIA
@Mnemosyne: Yeah! You really have to watch HER. She will cut you.
JoyfulA
@Scott: Exactly so, Scott.
Mike G
The MSM are uselss, overexciteable trash.
Doing research and presenting relevant context — like state laws or the fact that many Catholic businesses cover this stuff for their employees already — would be hard work, so instead they scream nonstop about the “CahntraVersy”. Go find some right-wing talking heads who will say “CahntraVersial” stuff, and repeat it verbatim in our articles and stories! Now the White House can be described as “embattled”! Oh no, what right-wingers has he pissed off now? Ooh, this is so much fun! Now let’s fret about the election consequences! Now here’s a chance for me to stand in front of the camera — how fortunate for you that you get to see me preen on TV!
Everything is a spectacle with no context — a slugfest between two parties, or a stupid horse race. Who’s right, who’s full of shit? Who cares! It’s all about the spectacle!
They should go watch the BBC to learn what grownup reporters do, then go fuck themselves with a rusty chainsaw.
Jeremy
I’d love to know where these Bishops’ outrage has been on the issue of our for-profit/not-a-human-right healthcare system, considering the Catholic Church claims staunch opposition to that.
Mnemosyne
I have to say, this entire kerfuffle has engendered in me a deep desire to watch some “Father Ted” this weekend. We have the boxed set.
(You can watch full episodes on IMDb.com or Hulu.com, but the “mature content” means you have to log in. Sorry.)
Ogliberal
Reading Politico – and just about every media outlet on this – is painful. Obama caves, Obama blunders, etc. Anyway, does anybody really think the rank and file cafeteria Catholics in this country – ie, folks who use contraception – really care what Tim Dolan says or thinks? Most of them go to church simply because they want to tell Grandma that they saw Aunt Betty at mass last week and invite her to junior’s baptism…not because we believe in or care about any of this but it’s because that’s what we’re supposed to do. I grew up with them – this is not a bigoted atheist opinion…it’s why they do it. Catholic/Grandma guilt and all that. So outside of the Opus Dei just become an evangelical Protestant already crowd, how is this going to hurt Obama among Catholics? And I think it’s rich that the loudest voices in this debate have been old white guys who are supposed to be chaste and married to god but who have a girlfriend/boyfriend on the side (they all do…all of them) and, if said mate is female, you can bet she’s on the pill.
Assnecks.
Ogliberal
Reading Politico – and just about every media outlet on this – is painful. Obama caves, Obama blunders, etc. Anyway, does anybody really think the rank and file cafeteria Catholics in this country – ie, folks who use contraception – really care what Tim Dolan says or thinks? Most of them go to church simply because they want to tell Grandma that they saw Aunt Betty at mass last week and invite her to junior’s baptism…not because we believe in or care about any of this but it’s because that’s what we’re supposed to do. I grew up with them – this is not a bigoted atheist opinion…it’s why they do it. Catholic/Grandma guilt and all that. So outside of the Opus Dei just become an evangelical Protestant already crowd, how is this going to hurt Obama among Catholics? And I think it’s rich that the loudest voices in this debate have been old white guys who are supposed to be chaste and married to god but who have a girlfriend/boyfriend on the side (they all do…all of them) and, if said mate is female, you can bet she’s on the pill.
Assnecks.
General Stuck
@Suffern ACE:
Basically, yes. But even more white evangelicals that are like 99 percent of the female population that uses, or has used contraceptives. This is the heart of the GOP base outside the 27 percenters. Lay Catholics are having none of it, and will vote like they always have, devout Catholics may or may not vote the same as always, especially Hispanics that are fed up with the racial hatred from the GOP. Obama was mostly speaking to them with concern for their beliefs, as potential Obama voters. The wingers didn’t see that coming, and one reason there was pol substance to this win.
But the underlying gist of this whole exercise was political and not concerning most Catholics, at least for the wingnut side of things. It was a jolt delivered to Obama to please the white evangelical GOP voter, in a round about way. The Bishops are likely conservative in their politics, and they are American citizens, so they took the ball for the wingnut GOP team. But fumbled by concentrating on method of payment, and choosing contraceptives as the football.
The hypocritical white evangelical voter who loves their Pills also too, are easy to outrage when a dem and liberal is POTUS, and it has anything to do with sex. And the GOP braintrust is desperate to energize the protestant godbotherers to go vote, especially if they end up with a Mormon nominee. It’s all very diabolical, or I’ve watching too much politics. Take your pick.
kay
Makewi, I looked your link and they do have to provide birth control coverage.
The larger organizations get around it by self-insuring. The smaller ones comply with the law.
But “we don’t want to self-insure!” is a much more boring rallying cry than religious liberty, so I guess that’s why we went with religious liberty.
I don’t mind debates. I mind people portraying other people as “hostile to religion” as a negotiating tactic.
It’s ridiculous that Obama is hostile to religion. He’s almost doubled funding for faith based social service contractors, and I don’t even agree with that.
Ogliberal
Also, these folks think all this free pill money is going to nigras and wetbacks, folks they despise and most of whom vote Democratic. They’re already terrified of the oncoming demographic apocalypse…why would they want them to give biryh to more freeloading, Democratic voting, welfare hogging brown people? Does unregulated sexytime trump all?
General Stuck
@kay:
Yea, right. That’s what he says to the teleprompter, but sings a different tune at the Central Committee meetings, where they teach Karl Marx like some kind of commie Sunday School class.
kay
And, makewi, it has to be noted that the people who are sympathetic in the article about the 7 months of planning admit this was cumulative, ie, losses on same sex marriage and the sex abuse scandal.
So they decide to load all that frustration and anger on health insurance regs?
How is that reasonable?
Thymezone
@makewi:
Hospitals are not religious organizations. Almost without exception, they are operated under nonprofit corporations that must, and do, comply with all the laws that pertain to large employers. Your implied point appears to be false.
No church is going to operate a hospital directly. It’s legally impractical, and administratively impractical, and much too risky financially. The nonprofits were set up by the churches precisely to isolate the church from the cobwebs of law and risk that go with operating those services. They wanted the separation, nobody forced it on them. They may have “protested” compliance but they probably did it to themselves over lunch, because the administrators of the laws don’t give a crap if they protested. The law is the law.
Thymezone
Note, my previous blurb applies primarily to “church affiliated” hospitals. Hospitals can be run by any corporation, and for profit. But the church affiliated ones are generally run by nonprofits.
Gian
I remember 2004. the Catholic Bishops went hard after Kerry on Abortion, and gave Bush a pass on the war that Rome had decried as unjust. (not to mention the glee he got out of the death penalty, another Catholic “no-no”
as far as I’m concerned they are the conference of republican bishops, this, and just about anything else they do is partisan hackery
this was just their sound anf fury to try and hurt the democratic president.
until they start riding rick santorum and newt gingrich to abolish the death penalty they can go stick their fingers in salt water and screw them into light bulb sockets. I don’t give a crap what such hypocritical partisan hacks have to say.
Rathskeller
@Gian: Sing it, brother.
OzoneR
@kay: Uh, I’m not a journalist, but I was one in college and I’m pretty sure using a quote someone else gave to another paper is frown upon. Not plagerism per say, because you give credit to the publication that printed it, but most editors don’t really like that.
I guess unless you’re trying to be a messenger for the Catholic church.