Like Mistermix, I was nauseated by the “let the healing begin” crap. Except I wasn’t watching a candlelight vigil, I was watching a bunch of meathead coaches from Penn State and Joe Paterno’s son. “THE TEAM SHOWED HEART!” “IT WAS A TYPICAL JOE PATERNO TEAM, FIGHTING UNTIL THE END!” “THIS IS PART OF THE HEALING PROCESS.”
It left me wondering just what the hell they were talking about, and what the PSU/Nebraska game had to do with the victims. And then I realized- it isn’t about the victims. It’s about them and their loss. They lost their coach. They lost their good reputation. They, like all sociopaths, recognize who the REAL victims in all of this are. They aren’t talking about a ten year old boy who was anally raped in a shower, and the number of kids who were raped before that event, or the numbers who were raped after even when it should have been clear to every one at PSU there was a major problem.
No, when they talk about victims and healing, they are talking about themselves and their precious god damned football program.
*** Update ***
Two additional thoughts:
1.) Like many I was flabbergasted to learn Sandusky was out of jail on bond, until I thought about it. They are probably hoping he kills himself before more secrets come out.
2.) Many of you are shocked by his interview with Bob Costas in which he admits to a bunch of stuff (showering, touching their legs) but denies being a pedophile. Many pedophiles never realize they are harming the kids- they think they just love kids. “I would never do anything to hurt them, they protest, and they are being sincere when they say it.
The Moar You Know
Christ, I heard that interview with Sandusky this morning. Those boys are lucky he didn’t murder them afterwards – he is as classic a sociopath as I’ve ever seen.
That man needs to be in jail right now, can’t imagine what a judge was thinking letting him out on bond like that.
chopper
i’m just surprised this whole thing hasn’t been blamed on obama yet.
geg6
I will agree with you about the coaches and, especially, Paterno’s son, still a coach. But the students are completely sincere and so are the faculty, staff, and most of the alumni, all of whom ARE focused on the victims and have been doing many things to try to keep the focus there and find ways that the university community can help them and other victims of child abuse.
Samara Morgan
totally agree.
and this is why, like i splained to DougJ, that the students werent rioting “in favor of child rape complicity”. they were rioting to protest the destruction of their tribe.
but this “let the healing begin” is crap.
and they know it,
its game over for PSU football culture, and they know it in their hearts.
they wont heal.
Stooleo
@The Moar You Know:
I heard him too. Totally made my skin crawl. He admitted taking showers with the boys and “sometimes touching their legs” eewww creepy.
slippy
This is reason #13,405 that I think school sporting teams should be permanently abolished forever, no exceptions.
The delusional, self-serving bullshit these people come up with to coddle their superstar coaches and athletes is damaging to our society in a way that terrorism, drug abuse, and widespread gang violence can never match.
No, I am not kidding, either. Fucking fire them all. I remember when I learned that Rick Pitno made some un-holy figure of money that I could only imagine being sucked violently out of every educational program possible, in order to make sure We Duz Haz Duh Best Coche Pozzibul 4 Our TEAMZ, DAMNIT1.
I was flabbergasted with how much money is thrown at head-crushing stupid in an educational institution. And disgusted.
Jay C
@chopper:
I’m sure there is some right-wing pundit out there somewhere who has already got an Op-Ed thumbsucker in the can just waiting for the right moment to make this very point. David Brooks has already started the ball rolling; shall we start a pool as to who will be the first to lay the PSU scandal at the door of the White House?
My guess is George Will: though Ross Douthat is a close second….
celticdragonchick
@The Moar You Know:
The rot goes deeper then you know. The judge did volunteer work for his charity! She let him go on an unsecured bond!! (he only pays if he does not show up)
How the fuck she was allowed to do this without prosecuter demands that she recuse herself is beyond me.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
@slippy: Yea, everywhere but West Virginia.
Zifnab
We need to move past this terrible phase of accusation and condemnation, so we can reach a blissful state of “one bad apple”, “that’s old news”, and business as usual.
Nutella
It’s true that everyone at Penn State did lose something. Sandusky and the crew who did the coverup brought profound shame to an institution that they used to be proud of. That is a loss even though it is much smaller than the loss to the child victims.
What’s appalling about a lot of these people is that they are blaming this shame, this loss of pride, on the wrong people. The people they should be blaming are Sandusky, Paterno, Stanier, and all the others, whether mentioned by the grand jury or not, who covered up for and enabled Sandusky.
They seem to be blaming their shame and loss of pride on those pesky outsiders who are criticizing Penn State and its football team. That’s disgusting.
General Stuck
It’s a sad lesson illustrating the gigantic hubris that allowed this evil shit to go on for so many years. The dragon of faux pride has been harpooned by major felonies and blind eyes to the fact that the future is not football, it is our children. It will take a while for that fact to be hammered home and justice served, I suspect. And it will be. Then they can talk about moving on, or whatever the fapping denial of the day is.
Villago Delenda Est
Just this.
The children who have been damaged by this don’t even enter their minds.
Pierce has some good words on this abomination, there’s a link below on Mistermix’s post.
libarbarian
Oh God. How long till the PSU fanboys come by to cry over their butthurt and explain that they are, indeed, the real victims in this?
Ana Gama
There is a lot that reeks about how PSU is handling this mess. Consider:
1.) Kenneth Frazier, the CEO of Merck, who will lead the internal investigation, is a trustee of PSU, and was formerly a lead defense attorney for Merck a few years ago during the Vioxx trials.
2.) Graham Spanier, the President of PSU, is still on the payroll. He lost his president title, but he is still considered a professor with all the salary and privileges.
The Moar You Know
@celticdragonchick: I knew about the unsecured bond – a travesty. I did not know the judge worked for Sandusky’s charity. That is some serious dereliction of duty on the part of the prosecutor to not ask for recusal.
Emma
I have been avoiding commenting on any of this because the only thing that wants to come out of my mouth are obscenities. Who the hell do they think they are? They don’t determine when healing begins and ends. The victims do that. And the morons at PSU don’t get to impose their agenda on it.
JPL
@Stooleo: I mentioned this before but Costas missed his chance by not asking him what he was doing taking a shower at 9:30pm on a Friday night before spring break. He admitted he was there.
I’m not going to defend the healing crap but I will say the victims were mentioned at the ceremony. The student body has been fundraising to support victims of child abuse. It might not be enough but it is start. I don’t agree that the student body of PSU is made up entirely of narcissistic. assholes.
Now the football game and pregame ceremony was morbid. It didn’t honor the victims or the student body..imo.
El Cid
There were children involved in this scandal? I’m pretty sure that if children had been involved, we’d have heard about it by now!
Bludger
State College law enforcement, PSU administration , and the Paterno regime is like La Cosa Nostra.
I guess the prolific pedophile thing was just too much for someone in the gang to take for so long.
Let the endless crying for the break-up of the family begin.
JPL
The Sandusky trial if there is one, is going to be a sham.
How many young adults will be brought in to testify that Sandusky didn’t touch them. They already alluded to the fact that someone might testify they were in the shower when McQueary saw them and nothing happened. Victims who testify are the brave ones.
Paul in KY
@libarbarian: Considering Sandusky was there for 33 years, there’s some ex-managers or trainers who might have some actual butthurt (or were kids when he got ahold of them & then went to PSU).
gene108
@slippy:
People like their heroes.
We revere certain public figures. If athletes aren’t part of the equation the deficit will shift to the military, law enforcement, priests, or whatever we need to fill whatever vacuum exists in our souls that we exalt certain individuals above others.
Sports is just an outlet for the hole in our souls. No sports, we’ll look to fill the vacuum with something else.
Perfect Tommy
Not exactly on bond, he was released without having to post a single cent. If he fails to appear, they will bill him for the $100,000.
RossInDetroit
First they’ll blame teh gayz. Then they’ll blame Obama because he got rid of DADT. See? It’s easy to think like a ‘winger.
befuggled
@gene108: Yes, thank you. The answer is not to abolish sports. The answer is to make sports and the people involved in sports accountable for what they do.
Frankly, we need to do that for a lot of institutions.
ruemara
I’m not surprised. Not at all. Poor kids versus the pillar of the community? Unless something happened to each and every one of them, they won’t get why their healing isn’t the priority. And yes, Sandusky is a lying sack of crap.
Jay C
@celticdragonchick: @The Moar You Know:
When I googled “Leslie Dutchcot PA” for some information on the judge, the first hit was a clip from Huffington Post (yeah, I know…) which had a blurb in it which, to me, summed up the whole sorry affair in a nutshell:
“…small-town atmosphere…”
Which, of course, is what is at the heart of the matter: despite Penn State being a huge institution, it is a huge institution in a very small town: it’s most likely that everyone (at least on a professional level) in the town, the county, and the surrounding area, knows, even if tangentially, everyone else – and their reputation(s). It’s not, I think, that Judge Dutchcot is clueless, corrupt, or complicit: it’s more a case, I think, of the local jurist reacting in a “normal” manner to accusations (however heinous) against a man who had been (and may still be) considered a “pillar of the community”. And after seeing Jerry Sandusky’s jaw-dropping “interview” on television, I think her estimation that he isn’t going to do a runner may prove correct.
Dan B
John, I can’t keep track of the number of times that I have heard folks tell Penn State alumni/fans/etc. that they “feel terrible” FOR THEM and “understand how hard it is” FOR THEM in the wake of the revelations of Sandusky raping young boys. It’s about as disgusting a response as I could imagine. It’s hard on these folks, as football fans, to have their school and team get caught for hiding a kid-fucker? Fuck that.
Tractarian
Well then, it’s not like mistermix at all. You see, mistermix was furious that Penn State students and faculty were doing anything other than ritually whipping themselves for having the audacity to attend a school that a child molester once coached at. Because, you know, everyone who lives in central Pennsylvania is presumably complicit in child rape, or something.
You, on the other hand, are furious that the people who actually covered up the crime don’t seem to feel any remorse or guilt. Your fury is, therefore, totally appropriate and not at all a function of imposing collective guilt on an entire region for the crimes of a few.
Ana Gama
@Jay C: Paterno & Co: “Big Fish in Small Pond” syndrome.
RossInDetroit
I’m not a college sports fan but I understand what it means to people.
What it SHOULD mean:
Fairness
Sportsmanship
Personal achievement and growth
Entertainment
Community
What it means for too many:
Tribalism
Winning at any cost
Bragging rights
General Stuck
Or the cunning of an accomplished and now caught predator, realizing now being caught, throwing out concessions that appear as honest humility of lesser acts, barely on the side of legal.
gene108
@befuggled: Abolishing the PSU football program would be the best thing in the world for those, who enabled the cover-up and don’t want to ask hard questions about who knew what and when.
It’d be very easy for people to say there’s no more football program, so there’s no need to push beyond the criminal investigation to see how rotten things were at State College.
Barry
@Ana Gama: “Graham Spanier, the President of PSU, is still on the payroll. He lost his president title, but he is still considered a professor with all the salary and privileges.”
He’ll be fired, but they have to go through tenure-removal proceedings first.
Gex
@celticdragonchick: The prosecutor is from that community also, I would imagine. Tribalism runs deep and wide.
pete
This John Cole person is quite insightful. He should be on the front page more often.
kindness
Couple things.
Conservatives loves them some blame everything on libs & the 60’s, don’t they. And it seems it’s still one of their stronger throwdown cards if Bobo and others are any indication. The fact that these same mendacious Village Elders did the same thing with the Roman Catholic Church problems underscores their inner ids. They are very small people. The fact that editors allow this shows how shallow and unprincipled people in a position of power have become.
The Penn State reputation & the hurt fefe’s of those involved…I was very unprepared for the hundreds of Penn State kids to go out and protest the firing of their loving godfather of a coach. That they completely ignored the far too loving of one linebacker coach and their godfather sweeping it all under the rug meant this shallow and unprincipled value set crosses more territory than just the defenders of the faith so to speak.
It’s gettin’ to be guillotine time. Maybe the French weren’t so wrong after all.
@chopper:
“i’m just surprised this whole thing hasn’t been blamed on obama yet.” Trust in Karl. Turdblossom will find a way.
celticdragonchick
@Jay C:
She worked for his charity, fer Chissakes! That is the fucking definition of conflict of interest, dontchathink? She had no business sitting in that courtroom. Another judge from another county should have been requested.
curiousleo
@gene108: Agreed. In addition it would make it much easier for people to think/say/believe such child abuse & cover up won’t happen anymore and not take good looks at other institutions/families close to home where there may be abuse.
Zifnab
@JPL:
You ride one bike and people don’t call you a bike rider. You jog one mile and people don’t call you a mile jogger. But you fuck one kid…
I mean, look at all the kid I didn’t fuck! Shouldn’t that speak for itself?
geg6
@General Stuck:
You know, I’ve been wondering about which he is myself after watching that chill-inducing interview. I know what the literature says and what the people I know who have been similarly abused have said, which is basically what John said. But I can totally see it as you characterize it, an evil psychopath who is just trying to find a way out of his predicament. I tend to agree with John’s take only because it all seemed so typical of what the literature says and other victims have told me about their abusers. But your take has enormous appeal because it is less ambiguous and easier to accept.
mining city guy
I only have a couple of minutes but I want to just mention that Sandusky does have certain constitutional rights such as the presumption of innocence and the right to not have his liberty taken from him without due process of law.Under the 8th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution he probably has the right to be free on bail pending trial. I suspect that Pennsylvania probably has a similar provision in its Constitution. The purpose of bail is to provide some means of guaranteeing that a criminal defendant will show up to all court appearances including trial. When considering a request for bail the judge typically considers the seriousness of the charges but also considers matters like the defendant’s ties to the community and the right of the defendant to assist his lawyers in preparing his defense.I don’t think that these are matters that should be overlooked
Southern Beale
John, did you see Megan McArdle’s floundering attempt at empathy … for Mike McQueary? The enabler? I wrote about it here. Talk about sympathy for the devil.
wormtown
That’s my theory, too.
General Stuck
@geg6:
I suspect the truth is, that it is some of both.
Villago Delenda Est
@RossInDetroit:
You left out “tons of money”.
Bigtime college sports is about tons of money.
Amanda in the South Bay
But I’ve been told that team sports build character.
Villago Delenda Est
Or someone takes him out, which avoids all the bad publicity of the trial and the testimony and all the legal followup on the principles of the coverup, to include the sainted Joe Paterno, who it seems knew about this 13 fucking years ago and did jack shit about it.
The Republic of Stupidity
Or that if Jerry doesn’t do it himself someone else does…
Violet
@mining city guy:
Sandusky’s lawyer said today they’re aiming for a trial and not a plea bargain. I found that very interesting. I wonder how many of the victims will be brave enough to testify.
Ana Gama
@mining city guy: Yes, except Sandusky did not post bail. His bail is unsecured. No ankle bracelet either. He lives next door to an elementary school. Should he be monitored?
The Republic of Stupidity
@Villago Delenda Est:
Heh… beat me to it by mebbe 30 sec…
Gex
@mining city guy: The issue is that this kind of release sans bail is virtually unprecedented. It speaks to how the community is going easy on these guys after looking the other way for so long. And reflects badly on the chances of the victims getting a fair shake from this judge.
Louise
Sandusky gave it all away in that interview. He is pathetic. All innocent folks, and most lying guilty ones, when asked “are you sexually attracted to young boys?”, know that the correct answer is “NO.”. Clear, plain, NO. Sandusky’s rambling response was all anyone should need to know that this is going to get much worse.
Gin & Tonic
I can’t explain how cringe-inducing the Sandusky interview was to any older guy who’s worked with kids.
Ive spent a lot of time over the years with a youth group, boys’ division. I like kids, and I particularly enjoy the long game, watching boys turn into men (and hoping I had some influence on the positive outcomes.) The communal showering, if you’re in a camp-type situation, is just the natural order of things. When the boys are 7 or 8 or 9, you do have to actually make sure that they wash themselves, and that they don’t hurt each other in the shower; that’s also the natural order of things. But for [deity]’s sake, you do this by standing in the doorway with your clothes on, and if you have to intervene, too bad, you get your clothes wet. The idea that you’d take off your clothes and join the boys in the shower is so far off the reservation that I can’t describe it. The tone-deafness of admitting even to that is astounding.
By the time the boys get to, say, 11 or 12, they can be trusted to wash themselves, and they actively don’t want the old guys even in the doorway watching, so you stand outside and listen for noises that could be hitting or slapping, and you shout in to have them stop, then barge in only as a last resort. Anyone who isn’t able to read these cues and react appropriately needs to stay away from the kids completely.
Violet
@Villago Delenda Est:
As much as the Penn State football community is starting to resemble the mafia, with its apparent loyalty-trumps-all, refusal to acknowledge atrocities, and longtime all-powerful godfather, it seems like they could find someone to take him out.
Crusty Dem
@Tractarian
Don’t be such a fuckwit. They’re calling for healing, who the fuck do you think they’re talking about? Hint: not anyone who could be called a victim.
Adolphus
@geg6:
All of which assumes this was a person speaking extemporaneously and independently and not scripted and in the unseen presence of skilled defense attorney’s who wrote and/or guided every word.It was literally phoned in. I have not looked into why Sandusky did not appear on camera, even a remote feed. Maybe there is an explanation that is more charitable than “He would look bad surrounded by lawyers feeding him answers.”
His lawyers could have given this interview and probably did.
Louise
Violet – I heard an interview with the lawyer for some of the victims. He actually spoke *against* the actions of the Penn State Trustees, saying that anger over the firing of Paternity would make victims reluctant to come toward, for fear of being blamed by the community for the loss of Paternity, football, etc. He must know that at least one of the victims is worried about it.
How warped is that? What a screwed up place.
burnspbesq
John Cole:
“Like many I was flabbergasted to learn Sandusky was out of jail on bond, until I thought about it. They are probably hoping he kills himself before more secrets come out.” (emphasis added)
If you sincerely believe that, then you have officially lost touch with reality.
fasteddie9318
We need to step back and take a lesson from the Holy
ToucherMother Church. We know who the real victims are here, yes, and it’s theVaticanPedo StatePenn State football program, but are we going to cowardly refuse to name the real villains here? Those “innocent” young children entrapped poor, weakFather GeoghanJerry Sandusky with the very intention of gettingPope BenedictCardinal LawCoach JoePa removed and wrecking a finechild sex ring’sreligious institution’suniversity’sNAMBLA chapterapostolic hierarchyfootball program.Adolphus
@mining city guy:
Excellent point. I’ll bet all the child predators in that community get out on unsecured, unmonitored bail using the same arguments. I’d be interested to see that breakdown.
This whole case should be moved out of the state into a non-football worshipping community.
Michael
Sandusky and, to a lesser degree, McQueary have started PR offensives at the advice of their lawyers. Thus the creepy interview with Costas and the email to former players in which McQeary contradicts his grand jury testimony and claims he stopped the rape.
Sandusky is trying to influence potential jurors — but failed miserbly. McQueary is throwing a Hail Mary pass in hope of salvaging a shattered reputation. Another fail.
Nutella
@Violet:
The article in the NY Post says Sandusky’s lawyer has contacted the 2002 victim, who is still unknown to police. It sounds like they’re going to make sure he’s not going to testify against Sandusky.
The low and unpaid bail is not surprising. Usually when you’ve got a prosperous, influential, popular white man as defendant he is treated with kid gloves even if charged with very nasty crimes. That’s one of the privileges of being a prosperous, influential, popular white man.
ETA: Unless the victims of the crime are also prosperous, influential white men. Then they throw the book at him. See Bernie Madoff.
Stooleo
@The Republic of Stupidity:
“They are probably hoping he kills himself before more secrets come out.”
“Or that if Jerry doesn’t do it himself someone else does…”
So it turns out the that the prosecuting attorney Ray Gricar,“failed to prosecute Sandusky for sex crimes in 1998, and later disappeared without a trace.” I wouldn’t be surprised if something strange happens to Sandusky.
Walker
@Ana Gama:
Tenure grants due process. That does not mean he is untouchable. If it is proven that he helped with a cover up then he can be removed for something as extreme as that. But he cannot be touched until it is proven.
eemom
@burnspbesq:
Lost touch with reality? THIS blog? Surely you jest.
gypsy howell
@Nutella:
Got into an argument (well, we weren’t arguing, but boy, she was yelling) about this with a die-hard PSU fan who is married to a guy who literally grew up in State College, then went to PSU, then sent their kids there. She was enraged at the media for blaming the coaches and PSU and especially Paterno. “Joe Paterno is a GOOD MAN. We KNOW him! It’s an OUTRAGE to fire him!”
This couple actually went to some kind of big prayer meeting in State College before the game. TO PRAY FOR PATERNO! I mean, what do you even say about something like that?
On the other hand, they’re big supporters of the Catholic church, so I guess denial comes easily to them. Or something.
Tractarian
Actually, I believe the Constitution, article IX, section 2, says:
Robin G.
I think Pierce got it right when he said (I’m paraphrasing): “Upset that your university is seen as a place where kids got raped? That’s what comes of being a university where kids got raped.”
In other news, looks like someone got ahold of a McQueary email where he says he “made sure it stopped.” (Anyone want to link? It’s a pain kn the ass on my phone.) Open for interpretation. Obviously self-serving, whether true or not. Not in technical contradiction of grand jury testimony, in that the testimony was extremely spare, but certainly against the original interpretation.
Sooner or later someone’s going to stop sitting on McQueary and he’s going to give his full version of the events. (I recall his dad saying he’s chomping at the bit to do so.) I’m very interested to hear what he says.
Tractarian
@Crusty Dem:
Right, this is no time for a community to unite and pray for healing! They should be ritually whipping themselves instead. Crack that whip!
Linda Featheringill
@Gin & Tonic:
Excellent comments! Thank you for sharing that with us. I will save you description of the proper way to supervise the little monsters and compare it to what details become available.
curiousleo
@Robin G.:
There have been a bunch of assumptions about McQueary based on interpretation of the testimony. But in my experience, DAs don’t send every thing they’ve got to the grand jury and my guess is there is more to McQueary’s potential trial testimony than we know.
He’s pretty much the key to any perjury trial against the PSU admins. I also guess that the DA figured there was NO WAY a grand jury would send Paterno to trial so the DA didn’t even try–why torpedo the entire 2 yrs of work & (potentially) the case against Sandusky?
Villago Delenda Est
@burnspbesq:
If you had told me three weeks ago that Joe Paterno took an active role in covering up the crimes of a child raper who was caught with his dick in the boy in a shower, I’d have thought you were out of touch with reality.
The rules have changed. I don’t put anything past this bunch. At all.
Tractarian
Are you 100% confident that no child was raped on the campus of your college when you attended?
You better be. Because if somebody did get raped, and you were there, and you did nothing, well…. you’re no better than these slimy football-crazed fucktards at Penn State. I don’t care that you didn’t know about it, or had no way of knowing about it. Tell that to the victims.
gypsy howell
@Stooleo:
You beat me to it. I’m sure everyone is hoping Sandusky will take the honorable Frankie Five Angels way out of this.
Who knows what the Gricar story is, but the plot sure just thickened.
The Moar You Know
@Michael: You could tell Bob was utterly appalled, and decided to just stay quiet and let Sandusky hang himself. Which he did.
Interesting that Sandusky is ignoring the advice of his legal counsel, and obviously thinks he can get out of this.
GVG
The more people who know a secret, the more likely it is to come out. It is impossible that most of those students and athletes to have been in on it and I would expect that very few administrators could have “known” even a little bit or it would have come out before. those people are innocent and now their reputation is being trashed and lots of people around the country are calling them names like rape enabler etc. Naturally they resent this. They were used as cover by the real rapist and the “reputation guards”.
You know the saying “it’s not the crime, it’s the coverup”? well this is a classic case. In this case the actual crime is horrific in it’s self which isn’t usually the case. But it’s still the coverup that’s going to be talked about in the future as what not to do. Bad people happen everywhere, not just in sports. When they do, and get noticed, good people tell the police. If Paterno and PSU had just done that at the time. there would have been a big unpleasant scandal and then it would be over. The way this is playing out could impact the whole academic mission of the school for a decade or more. Much much worse result to the institution. I don’t think is has much to do with sports in particular, it has to do with any institution and how many people can perceive their own reputation as tied to someone else whom they don’t control. Which is not to say it will hurt for all sports programs to to some self investigation with new eyes opened. That sort of thing is good in general.
One factor I think non college sport fans may be unaware of is that up until now Joe Paterno had an exceptionally good reputation for not “cheating” which as far as I know was warrented. this means people assumed he was also OK on well normal civilized values that seem to most of us to be even more fundemental than following arcane rules about not contacting student athletes certain week s of the year etc. It really is a surprise to find HIM involved in this. there are lots of scummier coaches it wouldn’t have surprised me about. Coaches who encourage their players to injure other teams players “playing to the echo of the whistle” or who looked the other way about girlfriends getting raped etc. But instead its JoePa.
I still think most other college coaches have normal moral compasses about this kind of issue and most of them would have reported it. I also think it is false thinking to equate some institutions reputation to this kind of action by one of it’s employees but by ACTING like the 2 were tied together, PSU has in fact tied them together. I think they were stupid to think it needed to be covered up. Short term bad publicity isn’t as bad as this is going to be. Institutions need to hammer this lesson home.
Maude
Sandusky doesn’t believe that he did anything wrong. He thinks he is a victim. Why would he kill himself? No remorse there.
Calouste
There’s a very recent example of that:
South African police were about to arrest the cricket commentator Peter Roebuck on a charge of sexual assault when he apparently jumped from a hotel window, according to a close friend who was with him just before he died.
Robin G.
@Tractarian: No, I’m not sure. But you know what? I wouldn’t shed a tear if the place changed its slogan to “___ College: Where Kids Get Ass-Raped In The Shower.”
Without turning this into the metaphorical dick-measuring contest of “Who’s Got The More Relevant Tragic Past?”, I *was* part of a school where shit like this happened, and when it came out, I ate it. It was only right.
Gin & Tonic
@Linda Featheringill: I’m not going to go so far as to call our approach “proper”, as I am not trained in child development, psychology or anything close. It’s just what always seemed to make sense and work out the best for me and the people I worked with, who are not pedophiles.
It’s actually quite rare, in my experience, for a 10-12 year-old boy to want a hug from an old guy, especially if he (the boy) is naked.
Brachiator
I’m shocked that Sandusky’s attorney let him give an interview in which any questions about the accusations were asked. This has got to be close to malpractice.
@Calouste: Yeah, the Peter Roebuck example is an illuminating precedent.
No. It’s the crime and the coverup.
And Sandusky’s wife needs to be thoroughly investigated as well. I would want to know why she apparently declined to accompany Sandusky on trips when he stayed in hotel rooms with young kids. I would want to know where she was while Sandusky was “visiting” kids who he let stay in a basement bedroom.
NedPointsman
Now you know how the rest of the world feels when US ‘liberals’ try and turn their country into the victim of it’s own aggression.
Enjoy.
Jim in PA
Hey Cole, maybe you and mistermix can tell Penn State students, faculty and staff when it’s OK to start the healing process.
Despite your hyperbolic “it should have been clear to every one at PSU there was a major problem,” 99.999% of the people at PSU knew nothing about this and are blameless. They’ve had their University’s image tarnished and – shockingly, I know – would like to restore that image.
mistermix was offended because a student attending a vigil dedicated to the victims on a Friday night had the temerity to refer to it as a “start in the healing process.” Seriously?
There are numerous levels of victimhood in this situation. It goes without saying that nothing compares to what those kids went through. But there are other blameless victims as well who have every right to want to heal their University. I heard a student talking yesterday about having a job interview cancelled. I see right-wing bloggers using it as yet another attack on Michael Mann. Think about the hit that will be taken (and passed on to students in the form of higher tuition) when donations to the University go south.
But you go right on judging. You’re clearly on the moral high ground with the way you quit rooting for the Steelers after Roethlisberger’s rape case.
DWG
All innocent folks, and most lying guilty ones, when asked “are you sexually attracted to young boys?”, know that the correct answer is “NO.”.
Suffern ACE
@Jay C: The judge was not an employee. Anyone bother to see if the prosecutor also attended charity events or organized one? It seems like this 2nd Mile Charity is the type of non-partisan, for the good of the kids, high profile type local charity that anyone who wants to run for office will get involved in. It mihgt be difficult to find someone in public life who hadn’t done something for it at some time or another.
Elizabelle
@burnspbesq:
I agree with John, Villa Degando Este and other commenters on this one.
It’s amazing the guy is out on bond of anything less than a million, given the threat he very literally poses to young boys in the community.
I think some in the the Penn State community are betting on suicide, a road accident, or murder.
(It’s amazing to me Sandusky agreed to a TV interview with Costas. Nothing a defense attorney would permit.)
I do not understand why the prosecution does not see the risk of death or injury to their defendant in this high profile case.
Or do they?
(CNN and others see the Penn State as ratings gold, apparently, since they cannot stop flapping about it. NBC Today led with a brutally explicit Costas segment in their first ten minutes this morning.)
Robin G.
@curiousleo: That sounds about on par with my limited knowledge (grand jury-wise). I have trouble thinking they would have moved so forcefully on this case if they doubted McQueary.
Everything said about McQueary from day one has been massive speculation. I don’t think that’s evil; when something like this comes out, it’s only natural for people to ask, “How the hell did this happen? What could they have been thinking?” But no matter what individual theories are, there’s no doubt we’re missing huge chunks of that part of the story, and that all of us will be revising our conclusions no matter what those conclusions are.
Someguy
All this crap about what McQueary knew and when is bullshit. The AD and President covered it up, as did Paterno and who knows how many other *state* employees. PSU needs to be shut down.
I guess it’s just too much fun to navel gaze and whine and bitch about it, rather than doing whhat needs to be done. This is going to be great for the blogs!
Adolphus
@curiousleo:
I have a question for the group. Has there been any discussion or assertion or denial that McQueary and Paterno might have testified in exchange for any immunity deal? I have seen none, but any decent lawyer would have to get something like that before letting them testify if there was a hint they could be charged. No? Yes? I’m just asking.
AnnaN
At Maude #80
I wouldn’t say that suicide (in the case of a true pedophile) would be due to remorse, but for some other reason. It’s all in the question: what would cause you to take your own life?
Here, we have a man who may value his freedom very highly. He’s been used to getting his way. He may not believe that what he is doing is wrong, but he KNOWS society believes it to be so. Sandusky could be afraid of persecution. Or that once he gets into prison, he’s going to be everybody’s bitch. For a man who seems utterly at home sexually assaulting the perfect victim (at-risk boys) I think becomming a victim himself in prison, the loss of his comfortable existence (monetarily, socially and sexually) might terrify him enough to kill himself.
And I hope he does.
shortstop
Question about Sandusky’s release for the more credible of our many lawyas here: I get that Sandusky is not considered a flight risk (perhaps partly for reasons too creepy to contemplate, but that’s another story). However, isn’t the likelihood of the accused committing further offenses while free often taken into consideration? Why would that not apply in this case, given the patterns of the alleged crimes and what we know about recidivism among pedophiles?
Adolphus
@Suffern ACE:
Which is why they should move the trial out of this community into a non-college town. Maybe one with a closed down, environment raping coal mine so there is some healthy mistrust of company controlled towns.
WereBear
Well, that’s fine, as far as it goes. I have no problem honoring Gandhi for his work in anti-colonialism, or Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. for helping get civil rights further down the road, or Elizabeth Warren for her work on consumer protection. If people are revered for moral advancement, moral slipups come with the territory and are evaluated in that light.
But when you revere someone for throwing a ball really really well; somehow, a lot of people ignore a lot more. Because dog torture and child rape have nothing to do with throwing a ball really really well!
Jay in Oregon
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yeah, and they hate it when people try to remind them:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/12/penn-state-stadium-profanity-scorn-joe-paterno/
Someguy
@shortstop:
Because Sandusky is friends with the judge, plain and simple. It may also have something to do with the allegations Madden made about him allegedly using his charity to pimp out boys to the rich & powerful. If true then the corruption probably runs deep into the PA establishment. I’m waiting for that other shoe to drop.
Petorado
Just like with today’s politics, it’s sad when the Onion’s over-the-top humor can’t even parody what’s happening in reality. From their post, “Sports Media Asks Molestation Victims What This Means For Joe Paterno’s Legacy“:
Crusty Dem
@Tractarian
So pointing out how ridiculous it is to be talking about “healing” in the immediate aftermath of charges being filed and information coming out = calling for self-flagellation of an entire state. Got it. Keep fucking that chicken.
Jay in Oregon
@Tractarian:
Straw man is made of straw, dude.
I’m sorry your precious JoePa shit in the bed of his own legacy by helping to cover up child molestation. I know accountability is supposed to be for poor people and minorities and not powerful and likeable people, but sometimes the world is just so darn unfair!
The people at PSU who knew about this and covered for Sandusky were willing to wager their honor and their school’s reputation on a bet that it would never come to light. They lost. It’s time to pay up, with interest.
torpid bunny
It’s not surprising that a whole enterprise which is basically corrupt – big time college athletics – should also have smaller but no less unsightly outbreaks of ideological fantasy and abuse.
I mean this is a game for kids that we have turned into a regional masculo-emotive hyper-narrative, a kind of structure of religious ritual and inane talk and boosterism, complete with weird fanatics and everything. They got a forest of brass statues in Alabama to prove it. But, thankfully, since it’s a kid’s game it’s not quite a national calamity like comparable cultural pathologies. Basically a fair number of kids get economically exploited, a similar number suffer life altering physical damage, and a bunch of idiots waste time talking trash on comment forums. But please, when national media is running thousands of hours annually about your kids game, lavishly sponsored by corporate advertising, you can’t really be pretend its just a sweet alumni cookout anymore. You’re running a youth athletics cartel.
shortstop
@Someguy: Leaving aside the judge’s clear conflict of interest, I was really looking for clarification from those who have pointed out that the release was according to usual procedure. Does the usual procedure not include considering the likelihood of further offenses while the accused is free on bond/his own recognizance, as well as the seriousness of the alleged offenses?
Tractarian
You mean, you took responsibility for the rape? Good for you. Whatever you did, I sure hope you didn’t talk with any fellow students or a counselor about your feelings. If you did, you godd*mn better have not used the word “healing”. Because that’s like raping the victims all over again.
Tractarian
I have nothing to do with Penn State and hold no brief for Paterno. What I have a problem with is the total lack of recognition that, as hard as it is for some of you to hear, the people of State College are victims here as well. Because of the actions of one person, and the non-actions of three or four others, their university is now synonymous with child rape. And their hero, the one man they looked up to as a paragon of decency and virtue, is now gone, replaced by an unemployed, shattered shell of a man whose name is ruined forever.
No, the people of State College are not the “real victims” here – spare me the sanctimony, please, I understand that being raped in the ass is geometrically worse than having your college’s reputation tarnished – but they are victims nonetheless. And, given that the vast majority of these people are 100% innocent, they are entitled to some healing if that’s what they want.
Robin G.
@Tractarian: I discussed “healing” privately, with a therapist. No, I didn’t say anything about it in public as it pertained to me. Even at 17 years old I recognized that yelling to the skies about how much *I* and the *school* had suffered would be utter bullshit, thanks. And I never pretended that my school, and the program involved, didn’t deserve every ounce of scorn it got.
How that isn’t obvious is a little beyond me.
El Cid
Anyone else watch Torchwood: Miracle Day and Bill Pullman’s astoundingly good/creepy portrayal of the child molester / murderer?
I keep getting reminded.
Tractarian
Why did your school deserve scorn? Did the administration approve of the abuse? Did they hire a known sex offender to supervise kids? Was there a big cover-up?
If not, it sounds like your school doesn’t actually deserve any scorn. It’s a shame that you held yourself responsible for the evil actions of another person. You (probably) didn’t deserve that, and neither did your friends and family.
If so, I assume you would have no problem with your alma mater being renamed “___ College: Where Kids Get Ass-Raped In The Shower”?
Tractarian
By the way, that was a little insensitive to the victims, dontcha think?
gwangung
@Tractarian: Nope.
Stop being an ass.
Surly Duff
@Tractarian:
Sweet fancy moses, can all the whiny PSU supporters stop trying to conflate the arguments the vast majority of people are making that a systemic, institutional failure occured at Penn State University, and the football program at University Park campus, in covering up documented instances of child rape, with the fake arguments that 95,000 students and teachers at all 24 campuses knew of the coverup. I have not seen every single post ever on this topic (thanks pie filter), but the vast majority of people do not blame the college arts history professor for the rape or the coverup.
The institution and its leaders failed to act when providing information concerning the rape of children on campus property. If the actions taken to punish the University (as an institution) results in lower enrollment, a percieved devaluing your diploma, or lower a endowment and reduced educational programs from paying out dozens of civil lawsuits then your ire needs to be at those leaders that covered up the crime and the instutional failing at PSU. Whining at blog posters, especially noexistent ones, for being unfair to you in the fact of an institutional scandal concerning child rape and the cover-up is pointless and frankly pretty dumb.
gwangung
Im hearing that this is a lawyer who impregnated a 16 year old girl after handling proceedings to emancipate her legally from her parents.
http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/11/14/111511-news-sandusky-lawyer-teen-web
Robin G.
@Tractarian: Yes, the administratiom suspected. Yes, they and other teachers swept aside all the earliest complaints. Yes, they turned a blind eye to the signs until the situation became so reprehensible that they would clearly go to jail unless they interviened. And yes, the motto was more or less changed for us. We heard it often enough, and again, why not?
I don’t think it was particularly insensitive to the victims to handle things between myself and a therapist, no. It would have been quite insensitive to publicly decry my victimization because, dear God, the rest of the world was calling out my school for its abhorrent behavior.
Gin & Tonic
@gwangung: Is it possible for a story to jump the shark when it’s barely even begun?
gwangung
@Gin & Tonic: Well, I think anyone who invested in popcorn companies are making an absolute KILLING.
(Apparently the woman child in question has a Facebook account that pretty much confirms it….)
daveNYC
@gwangung: Ah, well it’s good to have an attorney that is sympathetic to your case.
Though it might explain the WTF interview.
debit
@gwangung: Oh my god. I have no words.
geg6
@Someguy:
No one at Penn State is a state employee. The university is an odd category that, as far as I know, only exists in Pennsylvania. There is the state university system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_State_System_of_Higher_Education) and there are state-related universities, of which Penn State is one of four (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_System_of_Higher_Education). Penn State gets less than 8% of its budget from the state of PA.
And what, exactly, would this accomplish? Please be specific as to how this would help the victims and stop such a thing from happening again? How would this help the victims, the people of Pennsylvania, or the students or employees of the university?
Kathy
@Robin G.: I am in Philly and know some people whose kids go to Penn State, I actually had some sympathy towards them and their kids. Of course they weren’t guilty of Sandusky’s crimes and I believed that they would be feeling like you. To my shock, the parents I talked to could only go on about how terrible it is that innocent students might be deprived of a football game. They couldn’t for one second see how having the first annual “child rape bowl” might cause the actual victims more pain. It was only about their right to watch football. I lost the sympathy I had for them and their kids during those conversations.
eemom
@Surly Duff:
The point I think the so called “whiners” are trying to make is that many people here are taking the attitude “fuck Penn State and everyone who has anything to do with it and the horses they all rode in on — it is their destiny to STFU and lie down and die until all of this gets resolved, even if it takes two decades…and if anyone who attends the school or works or teaches at the school who had nothing to do with this horrific mess dares to even THINK about studying or working or teaching until then, it means the child molesters have won.”
That’s the attitude, and it’s bullshit.
elftx
At this point it strikes me that Sandusky thinks he is the victim. So as of yet, I do not think suicide would apply to him.
Seems to me certain fingers (governor comes to mind) have pointed directly at McQueary spoiling the apple cart. And considering other people have gone missing, he may want to make sure he is protected.
Over the top? Maybe, but there are certain reputations at stake, no?
Surly Duff
@eemom:
Well, if that is the case then I would agree that is a little far. The bottom line is that Penn State is going to suffer economically and socially – the overall perception of the institution is going to take a hit – and because this involved institutional issues, it deserves those losses. Furthermore, those losses pale in comparison to the losses of the victims of the abuse. Labeling everyone ever associated with the University as complicit enablers is also dumb.
The institution and its leaders failed. Demolishing the hierarchy and culture at the school that enabled the failure to occur is necessary. I cannot imagine that closing the school would do any good for the victims of abuse or the thousands of students and employees of the school that were not involved in the cover-up.
There is a position between “now that we’ve held a few press conferences and a candlelight vigil, let’s just forget the whole thing and move forward” and “the whole school and everyone that ever stepped foot on campus and the only logical decision is to light Happy Valley on fire”. I thought mosts objections were made towards the students who rioted in favor of Paterno and the students saying that the candle service and the return of football and “normalcy” could somehow help provide closure for the current situation. Even if those commenters were referring to closure over the media circus involving Penn State, it is extremely myopic and pretty foolish in light of the charges. Regardless, I get your point.
Medicine Man
For all of the 120+ posts on this, I think Samara Morgan actually had the best summation.
That said, I can understand why people are castigating Penn State. The misplaced priorities and denial on display are quite ugly.
geg6
@eemom:
Can I just say that, despite all of our differences, you have been one of the few reasonable people around here on this subject and that I appreciate it?
gwangung
@daveNYC: Yeah, I have no malice towards Penn State as a whole….just toward Sandusky (and his crew) and the folks who covered it up or kept it quiet.
This really is a clown crew here…
Adolphus
@eemom:
Speaking only for myself, I don’t think I have ever posted this, but I have to shamefacedly admit I have thought it. And there is a good reason why. I grew up not terribly far from State College not in PA and I have heard all my 40+ years of life how wonderful PSU is, how much better JoePa and his program was, how different PSU is, how just peachy keen Happy Valley is and how superior PSU is than all those other scandal ridden sports programs. I have known a lot of PSU alums who are, to be quite frank, smug insufferable bores on the matter. Not all, of course, and those who weren’t such bores flew under the radar and I probably never even knew where they went to school so there is more than just a little sampling bias here.
So I admit, not proudly, to a little schadenfreude in this whole affair. Turns out Happy Valley ain’t so Happy after all. Turns out maybe creating a whole program and administration out of former players and relatives and raising up mere mortals to deity levels might not be the best way to run a railroad after all.
So you are absolutely right, in only the “we are all connected” sense can we hold the entire school morally culpable. But I will never sit idly by and listen to some PSU alum tell me how wonderful their school and football team is, if any of them have the balls to make that claim anymore. Lefty Driesel and Bobby Knight don’t look like such evil men anymore do they?
geg6
@Adolphus:
Dude, I work here (but attended Pitt as an undergrad) and I would regularly call out people here for exactly that attitude. Being a Pitt grad, I heard all the time about how it was nothing but a school full of criminals. I, too, never want hear a single one of them get on a high horse about that and, in fact, told my sister, a PSU alumnus, that very thing when this first broke out.
However, I have to admit that that attitude only was evident in relation to the superiority of the football team and JoePa over Pitt’s. It was never extended to the academics, the faculty or staff, or the majority of the student body like people are doing here to everyone attached to PSU in any manner.
The people I work with are terrific people. My students are also, almost to a person, wonderful and intelligent and empathetic. It’s been the very best job I’ve ever had in academia because my experience here has been the exact opposite of what you have seen play out in the athletic department and those in the administration who decided it was better to protect them than the university or the children. I was never a PSU football fan (a Pitt Panther forever! but never so much that I think they are infallible), but I am a fan of Penn State as an educational institution and employer and always will be. And being at one of the smaller campuses in the system, instead of the large main campus, is probably the reason I feel that way.
Adolphus
@geg6:
No arguments. The bores I speak of pretty much kept to the football program, JoePa and what a wonderful place State College was because of the team. I do know one or two people who grew up there and added some sort of suburban utopia Christmas Story nostalgia. Everyone knew everyone, everyone loved everyone, and everyone loved Joe Paterno as the defected king of the city. These people are putting themselves through more hell right now than I ever could since they personally knew and revered some of the people we now revile so easily at a distance. It’s an existential crisis for them that cynics like me who revere nothing and expect the worst out of everyone will never know. (Unless people turn out to be good)
But when Len Bias died I was at a UMD satellite campus(not even College Park!!) and every where I went I had to put with people making cocaine jokes or some such bullshit. So maybe there is just inescapable guilt by association that comes from this type of thing.
What really rankled back then is that I chose my campus because it DIDN’T have much of a sports program but it still came back to bite us. Also, the people who suffered most, other than Bias of course, but no one shoved those drugs into him, were us undergraduate who suffered a complete crack down or just about anything fun or alcohol related. Which leads me to note this: If we do feel compelled to beat the PSU community up over this, bear in mind they are in for a decade or more of cheesy, necessary but wastes of time because they are poorly implemented, sexual harassment training sessions and GSD knows how many hours of shitty videos on the subject. I would’t be surprised if every undergraduate has to have a 3 credit course on this.
And for the record I am not AGAINST, this type of training, so many clearly need it, but I have yet to see anything of this nature done well and it is usually done very poorly. The PSU campus will do penance by being chin deep in these training sessions.
ETA: I meant “de facto” king, but I kind of like the error and choose to keep it.
Tlazolteotl
John Cole, you are a very decent human being. Thank you.
Kathy
Ok I will calm down, and I will agree that I don’t want to see Penn State burned to the ground. Football however, must be completely restructured (if it exists at all) and if people can’t accept that, then they are a part of the problem. I will also admit that I have a 10 year old son who got violently kneed by a football player at his school so I am having a hard time being objective.
pseudonymous in nc
Seriously. Please spell out the precise actions that should be taken by a freshman at PSU who arrived on campus two months ago and doesn’t give a shit about sports?
As I said in the previous thread, I’m not sure you can expect a group of teenagers — and specifically, the few quoted teenagers out of that group — to come up with exactly the right symbolic language and gestures to satisfy the anger here, when the usual spiel of healing and closure won’t do. The rioters? Well, fuck them. But the entirety of a 40,000+ campus?
HyperIon
@burnspbesq wrote:
Nah. It the ‘tubes. Anybody can say anything. Doesn’t matter how stupid it is. Witness this thread….chest-thumpers discussing the possibility that someone could/should “take Sandusky out”.
JR
@The Moar You Know:
The judge is associated with his foundation, I forget exactly how. I expect she thought no one could criticize her because she wasn’t male. She should have recused herself instantly; why didn’t the DA do that, ask her to recuse herself, I mean?
The interview turned my stomach. Nothing could have been worse short of complete and detailed descriptions of the things he swears he didn’t do.
The fact that his lawyer is involved with an underaged female, well, how deep is the perverted pile of sex at State College, PA, anyhow? The judge, the defense attorney and the coach…
And who did what to the first DA who disappeared? Getting rid of a prosecutor, no traces, and then the cases that missing DA was working on, no one follows up on that? Those aren’t the biggest clues an investigation into the missing DA could have?
If it weren’t on the evening news, I couldn’t believe any of it. But there it was, right in front of everyone.
Most child porn busts are of huge rings of pedophiles, these guys somehow ID each other and trade pix, and kids, sometimes internationally. Just ask Interpol.
I bet Coach Sandusky may well disappear at the hands of big wheels who are part of his ring. Just like the previous DA. Then who will investigate?
Hbin
@geg6: It’s interesting how someone’s opinion and principle seems to go out the window when it is something that involves yourself. Reading geg6 comments before this event, I really thought geg6 would not have reacted in thi way. But I guess when it comes to protecting our livelihood, some people would throw principles and beliefs out the window. Hey, I don’t blame you, but let’s be honest here, if you’re not part of the PSU system, you’ll probably react differently.
Darkrose
@geg6:
Nope. California does essentially the same thing. The Cal State University system is, in budget terms, directly controlled by the governor, and faculty and staff are considered state employees. The University of California system is controlled by the Regents, which is why we had our furloughs later and lighter than the CSU folks; they were more a matter of looking like we were doing something than actually saving money.
Barry
@Robin G.: “How that isn’t obvious is a little beyond me.”
It is obvious. Tractarian is a sack of filth. I wonder if it’s a laywer, like burnspbesq.