Just 17 percent said they were following the protests “very closely”. Independents — at 19 percent — were keeping the closest eye on the “Occupy” efforts while just 12 percent of Republicans did the same.
Both businessman Herman Cain and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich critiqued the “Occupy Wall Street” protests during Tuesday night’s debate in New Hampshire; Gingrich said that a portion of the protesters were “left-wing agitators who would be happy to show up next week on any other topic”. (He also noted that a portion were “sincere middle class people”.)
Of course, defenders of the relevance of the “OWS” protests will, rightly, note that it remains very much in its infant stages and that many big things in politics once started off quite small.
True enough. And with President Obama and Vice President Joe Biden both mentioning the protests in high-profile forums last week, it’s possible that in a few weeks time these numbers could look very different.
But, today they don’t. And that fact will embolden conservatives.
So in other words, a poll showing a surprisingly uniform (if not all that high yet) amount of interest in the protests across parties will embolden conservatives to Newt Gingrich to continue to describe the protests fairly accurately: as a mix of people who go to a lot of protests (I wouldn’t use the word “agitators” obviously) and middle-class people who don’t usually go to protests.
Also too, it’s simply ridiculous to discuss the comparison with the teahadists without mentioning the fact that Fox News practically invented the tea party. It’s hard for people not to know about something when it’s on the tube 24/7. Let’s compare this to the percentage of NFL fans who are forced to follow that Whitney show, while we’re at it.
Back to the interest among independents…John tells me “Every time someone mentions independents I want to kick a puppy”. But I see it differently here: Democrats have not done enough for the working class. Yeah, that’s partly because Republicans have impeded their efforts. But if you’re not a particularly political person and you hear Democrats wanking about debt reduction and cutting your Social Security at time when you’re out of job, I can see why you might think neither party gives a fuck about you while at the same time being interested in movement that does give a fuck about you.
Poll after poll shows that there’s plenty of real Applebee’s-going Americans who hate the banksters. If the Occupy Together movement truly takes off, it will be in large part because of unions. If there’s a hard-hat riot this time, it won’t be the protesters the hard-hats attack.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Chris Cillizza. The Andy Bernard to Dana Milbank’s Michael Scott.
FlipYrWhig
But if you’re not a particularly political person, you won’t hear any Democratic wanking in the first place. You probably think neither party gives a fuck about you because you’re doing your best, keeping your head down, and nothing ever seems to get done that stands a chance of helping your life.
Ron
This is excellent news for John McCain!
beltane
Right now, the only people who don’t hate the banksters are the banksters and their retinues, the hardcore Fox cultists who have been taught to worship the banksters for their Galtian genius, and our mostly corrupt Congress that is on the banksters’ payroll.
If you want to see a working-class American get agitated and loud, start talking about Wall Street banks with them. The hatred is real, it is deep, and it is completely justified.
RossInDetroit
Following ‘very closely’ might not be a good standard to judge effect by. There isn’t a lot of action going on to reward close attention. I’d be interested to know what portion of the population is ‘aware’ of the protests. I think awareness is closer to the protesters’ goal.
RossInDetroit
Well that’s encouraging. The media tried to bury and ignore OWS. The Tea party WAS the media.
RossInDetroit
The GOS has more polling on OWS for those fascinated with the numbers.
singfoom
Good article in Orion magazine about the one percenters.
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/6470
Surprise, surprise, NYC has the highest inequality around.
Also, Doug, I’ve been informed that banksters is anti-semitic, somehow. So watch yourself.
Dougerhead
@singfoom:
Jamie Dimon, Vikram Pandit, Hank Paulson, Jews all of them!
Mark S.
Oh noes, conservatives may be emboldened!
Davis X. Machina
Self-delete — cialis reference.
ChrisNYC
How, specifically have the Dems “not done enough for the working class”? Real question.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mark S.: Good lord.
Davis X. Machina
I hope you’re right, but decade in and decade out, the dog in a manger, and not the bald eagle, has been America’s true totemic critter. We’ve always hated bankers — going back to the Bank Wars of Jackson’s time — but we’ve always hated dark people, and immigrants, and Mormons, and Catholics, and socia1ists, and city dwellers, and the Joos….
beltane
@Dougerhead: And check out these horrible anti-semites http://dailykos.com/story/2011/10/12/1025399/-Oh-Hell-Yes!-Progressive-Jews-Risking-NYPD-Confrontation-at-OWS-to-Put-Up-a-Sukkah-in-Zuccotti-?via=sidebyuserrec
Omnes Omnibus
@beltane: Self-hating?
Jenny
Good thing though, cuz you can always count on WaPa analysis being wrong (“they’ll throw flowers at our feet”).
beltane
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes, that must be it. Someone forgot to tell them that their proper role is to support the wingnuts who love them so much they pray for Aryan Jesus to return to earth to slay them all.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@ChrisNYC: I haven’t done enough for my kids, just ask them. Or my wife for that matter. I haven’t done enough for her either.
The question I have though is what about all of those Democrats that keep trying to do stuff for workers?
Omnes Omnibus
@Jenny: That really depends on what your definitions of “flowers,””throw,” and “at our feet” are, doesn’t it?
AA+ Bonds
The point of demonstrations is not for people to “follow them closely”, whatever that would mean for such a diverse coalition of Americans.
I mean did anyone actually “follow the Tea Party closely” except for me and a few bunglers at Daily Kos?
@RossInDetroit:
^ This
Keith
I’m surprised Newt didn’t call for the protestors to resign/be fired since that is his reaction to just about anything he doesn’t like (although he recently graduated to calling for people he doesn’t like to be jailed).
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
i saw an interview with ex-gov ed philtharendellphia where he councils the protestors that they have made their point, and that its time to move on. turn the movement into a get out the vote campaign.
i am all for voter turnout, but
this fucker, a democrat, theoretically somewhat left, doesn’t fucking get it at all. i never hated him so much. so i while admit to being biased, this was as tone deaf as a piece of punditry as has been made on the topic. reacting as if this were an angry dems, or a left version tea party type thing isn’t just for politico or the village, these fuckers seriously do not get it, yet.
but they are worried, and they know they don’t get it.
amk
stupid pundtwitry on your part, douger.
If you’re “not a particularly political person”, then why and where the fuck would you hear about the dems wanking about them ? You’re more likely to hear the rethugs wanking about them 24×7 rather than the dems.
This is stupid dem bashing not supported by any facts.
Frankensteinbeck
Democrats do not do a Hell of a lot of wanking about either, especially cutting Social Security. On the other hand, we’re TOLD almost constantly that they are.
Jenny
Speaking of embolden.
Leading Village courtesan Howard Fineman just gave Cain a 10 minute hummer on Lawerence O’Donnell’s show, which means the rest of the Village isn’t far behind.
If he only knew Israeli policy, WaPo would be freshening their lip gloss.
ChrisNYC
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I don’t get your answer. You’re too clever for me. Not hard, by the way.
Oh, I REMEMBER. Here’s AT LEAST one REALLY good thing that Dems did for unions — the fucking GM bailout. Huh? Remember? Saved that company and the satellite suppliers. Saved those jobs. But here, on the internet, it goes under the waves and becomes, sniff, “Dems have not done enough.” Well, they did that and they did it without MoveOn, or OWS or DKos or Greenwald of the rest of it. I’m sorry but IDIOTIC.
arguingwithsignposts
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Every time Cilliza or Milbanks is mentioned, the picture of the two of them in smoking jackets should be used.
amk
@ChrisNYC:
.
Fixed it.
jl
Did the Prez or the VP mention Bo today? They did not.
As a non dog owner, I am emboldened.
I will go give a funny look at the next dog I see. I’ll make that sucker jump, I tell ya. Dammitall.
What are these embolden conservatives going to do?
Block administration programs?
Turn out the blogger trike corps to drive OWS from the streets?
Kick puppies?
Yep, an idiotic analysis.
AA+ Bonds
@ChrisNYC:
Calm down, hoss. There’s none of that talk around here that I can see. Can you see it? Maybe you should try not to.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Jenny:
good, good, cain, can’t win, so the more hummers he gets, the more of a problem he becomes for the gop. they threw the dough in the air with no idea how to catch it.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
Embolden Conservatives to what, mother-fucker?
Christ, I can just see the prim little smirk that accompanied that last sentence and I’m really frustrated that I can’t knock it into next week.
Edit: I see jl was quicker on the draw than moi.
piratedan
I’m cynical about all of this and our current administration. Until he fires Bernanke, Summers and Geithner, I gotta believe its business as usual. If the Big O decides to ride the tide of populism, he’ll have to cut bait with the Wall Street Wonders and hire somebody off the street who doesn’t give a flying fuck about trust fund managers and isn’t in their pocket. Then they can revisit actually getting Glass-Steagall reinstated.
jl
@AA+ Bonds:
I think only the corporate PR flacks, back door money bag personnel, and charter bus operators and caterers followed the teabaggers closely.
Or at least until they started carrying guns and shouting people down at public meetings.
OWS does not do that (so far, and never, I hope) and does not have a news network publicizing them, so it will take longer
jl
@piratedan: Obama cannot fire Bernanke, and Summers is gone. So you will need different lines in the sand.
General Stuck
I will go along with this, but not quite as far as you do. I do believe most every dem does care about the working class, but some of them for red state politics they come from, and others fearful of not getting their share of campaign cash, have run with the wingnuts more than they should have, and most of them more than they want to..
I see it still as a boomeranging pol cycle that started in 1980, when the country was primed for conservative ideas and actions. Probly a lot of reasons for it, but looking back over the centuries, there has been similar long term swings from conservative to progressive. Though now there are new demographic pressures on the white majority we haven’t had, and that injects a big unknown and likely motivating and maybe destabilizing factor for today’s conservatives and the whackjob 27 percent they invited into their tent.
So we are entering a new progressive phase of sorts in line with the country as it is in the year 2011, and though it’s too early to make judgments on long term effects on dem politicians, there is a curious paradox forming, seems to me. To include the off the money charts CU is bringing us, being a big advantage for the GOP, there is this movement among ordinary folks at OWS, and simmering anger at the financial class by more than just the poor and liberals.
Coming together in maybe something like a perfect populist storm for dems to hitch their wagons to, for not feeling like they can compete for all the cash, and most not wanting to, and the fact that the 99 percent have more votes on election day, than the one percent and their cash.
Kind of serendipitous, if you will. And hopefully to free up the populist souls of most dem pols, to just let their freek flags fly, and let the people sort it out. One can hope, anyways.
jl
@General Stuck:
“free up the populist souls of most dem pols,”
might work for some of them.
I think
“FEAR up the populist souls of most dem pols,”
would be required for many of them.
But I will settle for either. It will work if the OWS has staying power through primary and voter registration season.
harlana
EMBIGGEN
General Stuck
@jl:
LOL, true dat
ChrisNYC
@AA+ Bonds: umm except the post, which says that Dems have not done enough for the working class. But, yeah, other than that, no talk along those lines.
piratedan
@jl: I can still keep Geithner as my Rubicon then?
jl
@piratedan: I will check the news daily and hope that soon he will be gone too, and you have to come up with a whole new list. But for now, he will do fine on your list.
piratedan
@jl: well you have to be careful about keeping lists, somebody might be watching :-)
wilfred
Cloudcuckooland
“WASHINGTON (AP) — Congress approved free trade agreements Wednesday with South Korea, Colombia and Panama, ending a four-year drought in the forming of new trade partnerships and giving the White House and Capitol Hill the opportunity to show they can work together to stimulate the economy and put people back to work.In rapid succession, the House of Representatives and Senate voted on the three trade pacts, which the administration says could boost exports by $13 billion and support tens of thousands of American jobs. None of the votes were close, despite opposition from labor groups and other critics of free trade agreements who say they result in job losses and ignore labor rights problems in the partner countries.”
That would be the Republican controlled House of Representatives, right? They always say free trade will boost American jobs, they never do – that’s why labor groups always oppose them but labor ‘leaders’ don’t.
Piss, meet face.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@wilfred:
in South Korea, Colombia, and Panama.
beltane
@wilfred: See, when it comes to screwing over American workers Congress is quite the bipartisany, comity filled institution of the Beltway media’s fantasies.
handy
@wilfred:
C’MON! What could possibly go wrong?
jl
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
Congress approved
freebogus trade agreements full of harmful and excessive IP and patent protections for mega corporations, that also expanded the ability of the richest 1% to evade federal taxesThere, fixed it up for you.
Jenny
@wilfred: But Nobel laureate and the conscience of liberalism, Paul Krugman supported the agreements.
How can it be bad if netroots icons and idols Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz support it?
ChrisNYC
@Jenny: Shhhh! Don’t talk bad about “K-Thug”!
jl
@Jenny:
You have some real references for that? What you posted is a very short description of one of Kthug’s recent books, which does not mention these specific trade agreements.
I believe Krugman still supports NAFTA, but does not support CAFTA. Not sure what Stiglitz thinks of NAFTA, but he opposes the restrictive patent and IP provisions, and wants more fair trade and labor protections in trade agreements.
I’ll look for something, though have to leave soon.
The Moar You Know
Dems have done a lot for working folk. Start with NAFTA back in Clinton’s day and you can see that all the way up until this very afternoon, the Dems have been diligently voting to fuck over the working guy in a way that Republicans can only dream about every day.
Bipartisanship…it’s what’s for dinner. Which is good, cause there ain’t fuck-all left in the house otherwise.
wilfred
Labor died as an independent political force the minute it became part of the Democratic party. The same thing will happen to the OWS movement.It can influence from the outside, not the inside.
Free trade is the be all and end all of capitalism – it is the enemy of the working class. The irony of this legislation is stupendous, really. Free trade will bring back the jobs lost to… free trade?
Jenny
@The Moar You Know: But Paul Krugman supported NAFTA.
If the living embodiment of the conscience of liberalism supported it, then it must be good.
suzanne
@wilfred:
Well, if Rick Santorum (ewww nasty) gets his way and we “go to war with China”, maybe we could grow the military even more! Awesome!
jl
idiot blog is eating my comments now. Try again.
You tube
www dot youtube dot com/watch?v=UzhD7KVs-R4
Stiglitz on NAFTA and globalization rip off, with some nice digs at the fake economist Tom Friedman.
Jenny
@wilfred:
True. That’s just what Jane Hamsher said about Elizabeth Warren’s senate campaign.
That’s why I join Jane in opposing Warren run for the Senate.
Warren’s impact will die if she enters the Senate. So as much as it pains me, I will vote for Scott Brown.
slag
@arguingwithsignposts: Cillizza is an interesting creature. Even among the elevated rank of the WaPo, his bullshit stands out. So much so that you often don’t even have to click the link to know who the author is. When you suddenly find yourself smelling something extraordinarily foul, you can be almost certain that Cillizza is the one who dealt it.
jl
Note to self: send more money to Warren campaign.
slag
@wilfred:
And yet your tautology lives on. Tragedy is tragic.
Cacti
@Jenny:
I’ve been greatly amused to watch knee-jerk lefties with the attention span of a gnat make a working class hero out of a guy who once penned the article…
In Praise of Cheap Labor or “Bad jobs at bad wages are better than no jobs at all”.
Nellcote
@General Stuck:
A fine theory but it presumes the occupiers are registered and vote. I’d like to know how many of them voted in 2010.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Jenny: LOL, well done.
@jl: Since I didn’t write that, I’m not sure how you fixed it for me.
slag
@Cacti: And John Cole used to be a Republican. People make mistakes. They learn. You don’t exactly have to be a knee-jerk gnat to appreciate the value of that course of events.
Cacti
@slag:
So when did Krugman admit his mistakes?
Evolved Deep Southerner
@suzanne: Suzanne. How is propagating the silly-ass Santorum/frothy mixture thing with glee all that much different from harping on Chris Christie as a “fat fuck” or whatever?
I just ask because you and I were actually on the same side in the latter case, but at least he’s actually, you know, overweight.
For everyone to titter at the “frothy mixture” thing is no less idiotic. And gives the other side something else to say “See? They can’t attack the man’s IDEAS so they have to resort to …”
Just saying. That was funny about the first eight times I read it. Is it still all that funny? And is it any funnier than calling Chris Christie a fat fuck, or saying Michele Bachmann has crazy eyes, or that Boehner is orange, or …
Hell, at least those are physical characteristics visible to most anyone. The “frothy mixture” thing? Not winning anybody any friends or influencing any people except those who find the concept of frothy anal mixture funny.
Linda Featheringill
@Nellcote:
Somebody who comments on BJ [don’t remember who] went down to the encampment in NYC and asked people about their voting history. Admittedly unscientific but interesting nonetheless. Everybody that legally could vote in 2008 did vote. I think it was about three-quarters of them that voted in 2010.
Jenny
@slag: Yes, people can learn and change, but Krugman has remained steadfast in his support for NAFTA.
amk
@Jenny: oh snap.
brettvk
@wilfred:
IIRC, the air traffic controllers’ union that Reagan eviscerated had endorsed him in the 1980 election. Common wisdom is that Reagan thus opened the season on unions. I also seem to recall that Nixon had endorsements from the Teamsters, among others.
amk
@brettvk: Not speak of police union, firefghters union that voted for rethugs for years.
slag
@Cacti: Well, he brings it up here: http://bigthink.com/paulkrugman#!video_idea_id=4159 and admits that his estimates on trade impacts were “out of date” and need to be revised.
PeakVT
Congress approved free trade agreements Wednesday…
Dean Baker is a bit of crank on this topic, but he’s still right that these bills shouldn’t be called “free trade agreements”, just trade agreements.
Djur
The important thing to remember about independents is that you can break them roughly into quarters. One quarter are Democratic voters who don’t want to associate with the party (like myself, for instance). One quarter are Republican voters who don’t want to associate with the party. Another quarter are inattentive non-voters. And the last quarter is actual ‘independents’, ‘swing voters’, etc., better known as “mush-headed twits.” The exact ratios are a little different, but it’s a fairly even split.
The media, of course, acts like 100% of independents are thoughtful centrists, up for grabs for either party (but usually Republicans, the rightful rulers of America).
So I would suspect the increased attention from ‘independents’ is because that group has a lot of leftish malcontents.
Djur
@Evolved Deep Southerner: As far as I know, Chris Christie’s adipose tissues never compared gay marriage to necrophilia or dog-fucking.
Evolved Deep Southerner
@Djur: Well, carry on, then. Forget I mentioned it.
Santorum! Frothy mixture! *snortle snortle*
It’s just old and kind of dumb when you get down to it. But if you think it’s effective, damn the torpedoes. Just keep on linking it and laughing.
andynotadam
Hey, this thread’s probably dead (west coaster on day seven of garage re-organization), but I was pissed that NPR had nothing on Occupy today save a local San Francisco report on the Wells Fargo action. NPR is seriously cowed and sad these days…
Joel
Did someone post that they’re going to vote for Scott Brown? That’s some dumb shit right there.
No one of importance
@Evolved Deep Southerner:
Christie is obese, therefore calling him a fat fuck is a personal attack based on his appearance.
Santorum is not perpetually exuding faeces and lube (except every time he talks) so it’s a graphic way of saying he’s grossly insulting and talks shit. It would be different if he suffered fron Crohn’s disease or had bowel cancer.
If you can’t see the difference, then you’re probably a believer in the oppression of white Christians too. Not ever insult is a slam against a group of people who suffer real life difficulties because of prejudice.
True, Santorum belongs to a singularly large group of shit talkers, but they aren’t suffering any repression as a result – sadly the opposite.
No one of importance
@Evolved Deep Southerner:
Since Santorum (wrongly) believes it’s keeping him out of the highest office in your land, and since it pisses the living crap out of him, and there are no social justice issues in mocking someone for being a ridiculous bigot, yes, continuing to link him very specifically to the outcome of a sex act he clearly thinks about a lot, is indeed a righteous and good thing to do.
Ian
@piratedan:
Firing those 3 guys gets them no closer to 60 senate votes or 218 house votes.
piratedan
@Ian: true, but it removes one more “part of the problem” pieces that are so intrinsic to solving the problem….
Samara Morgan
because the working class is mostly dumb enough to get votefarmed by “conservatives” selling them racism and anti-intellectualism and anti-science in the stealth guise of gawd&country.
cant fight religiosity or red/blue genetics with truth and honor.
kay
@wilfred:
Oh, bullshit. Patronizing as hell, too. “Labor” isn’t a theory, wilfred. They’re people. They work in specific areas, and they are wildly diverse. There are huge differences between unions, for goodness sakes.
Let’s take one union, and drop all the social science, What’s the Matter With Kansas nonsense and look at them.
The UAW. What do they do? They make cars. Who do they work for? Giant corporations. They can hardly make a car in a small locally-owned business.
What are “cars”, really? They’re consumer products that cost tens of thousands of dollars, new. What does that mean? Financing. The finance bail-out rescued more than banks. It rescued auto finance, like GMAC. We just ran right up against the “labor” /OWS alliance! Whatever will we do! Nothing whatever to do with Democrats, or “guns, God and gays”. Real issues. Reality. They’ll paper them over, or they’ll compromise, or they won’t work together. There are no other choices.
This is complicated. There are real divisions, and real divergence of interests. It’s HARD to hold a coalition of working people together.
Imagine for a moment that “labor” and you are equals. Stop assuming they’re dupes who can’t negotiate or figure out their own interests. Stop assuming they’re victims, who have Nancy Pelosi’s heel on their neck. They’re not. They don’t see themselves that way. Why do you see them that way?
I went to a Teamsters rally last night. Hoffa was there. He spoke. What does he want? No new trade deals. What would he take? No new trade deal with Colombia, because union organizers get murdered there. What will he take? Trade deals with concessions and the China currency deal. He said he was on the phone with Pelosi on his way up from Cincinnati. Was he talking to Pelosi because he’s a fool or a dupe or “co-opted”? No. He was talking to Pelosi because he has leverage with Democrats, and he has zero leverage with Republicans. Would he rather deal with a Democratic President than a Republican President? Sure he would. He has more leverage with a Democratic President, and he wants concessions. He’s not going to walk away from the table, wilfred. He’s not 5 years old. He has to make the best deal he can get.
Give them what they’re due. Give them that they are competent at negotiations, their members have agency and autonomy, and that they don’t need you, their better, to tell them how to run their unions, or who they should work with.
arguingwithsignposts
@kay:
As just one example, professional athletes’ unions vs. AFL-CIO or UAW.
Righteous rant, kay.
Samara Morgan
@kay: i fuckin’ hate that pity-charity-liberalism bulshytt.
its stealth conservatism for liberal retards that want to be flattered into thinking they are intellectuals.
wilfred
@Kay:
As a Democratic party operative, but this is silly:
“I went to a Steelworkers rally last night. Hoffa was there. He spoke. What does he want? No new trade deals. What would he take? No new trade deal with Colombia, because union organizers get murdered there. What will he take? Trade deals with concessions and the China currency deal.”
If you are actually suggesting that a genuinely independent labor movement – of which there is a great hx – would ‘take’ crumbs like that then you have got to be kidding. How many millions in donations to the Democratic party and that’s it?!
I don’t think labor are dupes, you stupid cow. I think that labor’s hope is in class consciousness, not adherence to a political party that gave them Nafta, and continues to champion free trade.
You treat the labor as milch cows when you need them. Enough already.
kay
@arguingwithsignposts:
Oh, God, if it were even that simple it would be great.
This is some testimony on the oil sands pipeline. Tell me again how it’s easy to put “labor” and “the Left” together, if we could only get past “guns, God and gays” and the Democratic Party, who are the ONLY thing standing in the way of our glorious coalition!
It’s hard. That’s why no has ever been able to do it.
Lojasmo
@Evolved Deep Southerner:
Frothy mixture is an attack on santorum’s equation of gay relationships with man on dog sex.
kay
@arguingwithsignposts:
How many different (perfectly valid and reasonable) views are represented by just those three people? This is why organizers curl up in a ball and start weeping. It’s hard.
kay
@wilfred:
Oh, bullshit. You won’t look at the reality of what “labor” do. Address the UAW and auto financing, wilfred. Is making GM (a giant corporation) profitable one of your goals? Address the tar sand pipeline, laborers, and environmentalists. Address the GIANT tax breaks corporations get for union for-profit health insurance, and how we can’t stop those, or “labor” will lose.
Your assumption that the Democratic Party “uses” unions includes another assumption. That “labor” are dumb as rocks. “Labor” elect their own leaders, the same leaders you sneer at. Is it your position that they are too stupid to do that? Address that.
Omnes Omnibus
@kay: Wilfred is the last true Marxist. From the 1930s. It is all theory for him – class consciousness and anti-imperialism.
arguingwithsignposts
@kay: Oh, I agree totally. And a huge part of the problem is that unions and “the left” have different motivations. Unions are looking (simplifying) at increasing, maintaining and ensuring working conditions. “The left” usually isn’t, on any number of issues.
And the oligarchs use that to their advantage as often as possible to divide and conquer the lower classes.
kay
@wilfred:
There are “class divisions” even within “labor”. Service unions make less money than those in manufacturing. They’re younger, and browner, and more socially conscious, because a lot of them are barely middle class. Skilled trades make more than those who are not, substantially more. Some skilled trades in Ohio don’t want to pay the property taxes that go to teachers, because they own a lot of property. Teachers are union members. This goes on and on and on and on. Go ahead, wilfred. Hold them together. Maybe you’ll be better at it. Who knows?
Samara Morgan
@wilfred: Kay is right….even here on a liberal, educated, upper IQ quadrant blog there is meme propagation of pity-charity-liberalism bulshytt and stealth anti-labor crapology.
the “freed” market is antipathetic to social justice, no matter how much spin you put on it….and the “freed market” is simply antipathetic to labor.
the problem with class consciousness is that religiosity, tribalism, racism and red/blue genetics can all override it.
wilfred
What the fuck are you on about, Kay? I’d like to see an independent labor movement that thinks as the working class first, last and always. There’s a tradition of that that goes back a 130 years, at least.
How much money did SEIU donate to the Democratic party? Would it get more for its membership if it withheld donations and demanded more? I believe it would, in the same way that I believe in class struggle. Address that.
You’re in a fucking panic because the OWS movement is resisting being aligned with the Democratic party, a party that has Wall Street as far up its ass as the Republicans.
A few crumbs fall from the table of joy and you count it a victory.
wilfred
“Hold them together. Maybe you’ll be better at it. Who knows?”
Oh for fuck’s sake. It’s the only that is holding the OWS together. You think that all those people holding down shit jobs on wall street, all those secretaries, back office people, et al., are not sympathetic to OWS? Equally certain is that they don’t give a shit about most of the big ticket agenda items of the Democratic party.
You should read your own comments. So Hoffa insists on identifying with Colombian workers. As what? As workers.
I really do believe that workers of the world should unite, and have for my entire adult life. The minute a political party with a host of other agendas enters it will fragment the only unifying factor that the movement has.
kay
@wilfred:
You’re an equal, wilfred. Stop telling them what to do. SEIU has decided (they vote, remember?) to donate to Democrats. Not every local and not every race, but the national organization. You object to that, on the basis that they are “settling” for a few crumbs. But they elect their own union leaders, wilfred. Is it possible that they they know what they’re doing?
You don’t even sound like you know what they’re doing, actually. In Toledo, they are running primaries against city leaders who are Democrats but voted against the public employees. Is that enough for you, or would you like to advise them on that?
You sound like conservatives with black people and the Democratic Party. Conservatives believe black people don’t know how to act in their own interest politically. Jesus Christ, that’s breathtaking. What an arrogant thing to assume!
I fully support OWS and their independence from a Party. I think that’s great. Good for them. But the divisions between the Left and labor are going to come up, because they are real.
kay
@wilfred:
Nonsense. I went to their rally in Toledo and listened to them. I think they’re great. I supported them from day one. It’s not “my” movement, because I’m sort of a traditional person, but I don’t have to run it, or “advise” it, and I won’t.
There are contradictions. One of the things that young people here do that get them into trouble is they buy new cars. They take 60 month loans, on a depreciating asset. I don’t want them to do that. These are the people who don’t go to college. The “class” you’re talking about.
But, nearly the entire working class in this county (those who make a decent wage) work in the auto industry. So. What are we to do about that?
wilfred
This kind of church lady lecturing may work well in Ohio but I have been working since I was 13 and hardly need to be reminded that people get the government they want.
I mean, that’s what you’re saying, right? The people voted and they’re not retards, right? Shall we now discuss the results of maverick movements in labor? Let’s start with the Teamsters.
Save the rest of your smarmy shit for someone else. I want to see an independent labor movement. You don’t. The rest is your own sense of self-importance.
The divisions between the Left and labor will come up because people like you and yours never, ever stop harping on them.
Nickws
@wilfred:
No Labor or Social Democrat party in the world today achieves effective political change without having a ‘host of other agendas.’
Lula Da Silva, who is he and how broad is his agenda?
You’re living an irrelevant Bennite fantasy in a very dangerous age, comrade.
kay
@wilfred:
I’m not “harping” on tar sands, wilfred. I don’t know anything about it. The union laborers in Nebraska are. Some. Some are willing to compromise with environmentalists, from their testimony. That’s a real division. They want the immediate work, and the environmentalists want to block the pipeline. Maybe they’re all in the same “class”, who knows, but I don’t know how class solidarity alone is going to bridge that divide.
wilfred
Coincidentally enough, I’ve lived in Brasil for a long time, although not at the moment. Lula ran from the Left but governed from the center, terms which don’t really correspond to American versions. He benefitted from low to non-existent trade tariffs between Brazil and the US – remember the rolled steel ‘war’.
Of course, American made products continue to cost a fortune in Brazil – slapped with automatic 100% tariffs. Lula was able to do what he did because he punished the 5% (i.e. the rich and middle class) and was able to do that because the Brazilian left, many of whom are the dreaded intellectuals so despised around here, supported it. But while the American left supports tariffs on imports to protect American jobs they NEVER FUCKING GET THEM.
Oh, and a man’s reach should exceed his grasp, etc., etc.
kay
@wilfred:
Is that even what OWS wants? I read their initial dispatch and I didn’t see anything about an “independent labor movement”. I saw health care and education and anti-war and foreclosure. I hope you’re not co-opting them for your cause, wilfred, as you just accused me of doing.
kay
@wilfred:
It was my understanding that OWS rejects “Left”, actually. It was my understanding that they reject an ideology, along with a party, but perhaps I was mistaken.
wilfred
@Kay:
These are fair points. I’ve seen various reports, various ‘manifestos’, so I don’t really know. I’ll be in New York the first week in November and will definitely participate.
“But the divisions between the Left and labor are going to come up, because they are real.”
Fair enough. But divisions between the Democratic party and the Left are equally real. Has the Left gotten anything meaningful from the Democratic party over these past few years? I’m sure you understand the implications of the questions.
Unity is difficult if not not damn near impossible. But with it, you can accomplish miracles. This is as true in politics as it is in marriage. The original post includes:
“If there’s a hard-hat riot this time, it won’t be the protesters the hard-hats attack.”
The only way that prediction comes true if those hard hats recognize that the one thing they have in common with the OWS trumps all the things they have in common with the 1%.
MarkJ
@piratedan: You can keep him as your Rubicon, but I have a feeling the only reason he hasn’t been fired – i.e. stepped down to spend more time with his family – is that Obama could never get anyone else confirmed with the Senate in its current state. The Republicans are still holding up many of his initial appointment confirmations 2.5+ years later. We obviously need a Treasury Secretary right now, and he’s the only one we could possibly have, because the Republicans wouldn’t let us appoint another one.
kay
@wilfred:
I don’t really buy the premise behind the statement. It’s true that union members were pro-war while “hippies” were anti-war, but union members (in my view) went Right with Reagan for a lot of reasons, and some of them had to do with the fact that were doing better financially because they were union members. I think that’s a more complicated question than “hippie punching” or “god guns and gays” or the (admittedly, absolutely) corruption and anti-worker views of some Democratic leaders.
I was a member of the AFL-CIO for a time, and I saw divisions even within a local. The older members and retirees lobbied for pension protections and (what I still consider) excessive amounts of private health insurance.
I thought it was excessive because I was younger, so I wasn’t benefitting by all that insurance. If you never go to the doctor, “no deductible! free pharma!” isn’t a good deal, when traded for wages. I wanted wages, not an elaborate insurance policy. Older people wanted no out of pocket costs for health care because they use it more than younger people. My point is, our interests diverged, not based on class but on age.
I felt at the time they were selling younger union people out to benefit themselves, agreeing to lower wages for those of us coming behind them in return for elaborate health insurance for themselves.
Samara Morgan
@kay: Anonymous has no ideology.
Judas Escargot
@MarkJ:
This. I get the impression that Geithner would love to leave, but is stuck until after 2012 for this reason.
As far as Bernanke goes, don’t buy into the Ron Paul hype: As Fed chairman, his options are limited. IMO he’s done about as well as he could, given what powers he has.
One reason the GOP is so hot to replace him in 2014 is that they’re dying install someone else who’ll compliantly raise interest rates, regardless of actual economic conditions. Because that’s just about the only way left to extract any more cash from the People (to, as always, send it Upwards).
Samara Morgan
@wilfred: who shares all their goals?
republicans, conservatives, american libertarians, religious people.
not liberals and progressives.
not Anonymous, and not the owies.