Republicans running away from the Gang of Six.
Just let the whole system burn. I just don’t care anymore.
Oh, and as always, FDL has their priorities straight. let’s all chip in ten bucks to run negative ads about Obama. Those people deserve rule by the tea party, they really do.
Elisabeth
Of course, they are. The president had kind words for the type of negotiations taking place which automatically now means the whole plan sucks.
I believe you called it yesterday. Someone sure did.
jwb
That’s exactly how they want you to feel.
Davis X. Machina
Cantor and Boehner = Thelma and Louise.
General Stuck
The only good news is that the public is finally getting it. Whether that sobers up the nihilist tea tards is unlikely imo. But it’s not all bad news. mostly.
kalyarn
We don’t need no water?
TX Expat
Unrepentant Obot here. Reading articles like this one reminds me that Obama is engaging in almost superhuman efforts to keep this country together. What he’s facing in the Republican opposition is damn near unprecedented.
aisce
emo cole is emo.
despite what some commenters may want you to think, you don’t want some big compromise being made in this session of congress. the president may have his own reasons for wanting it done, but the nation is better off without.
elect more and better democrats in 2012, win back the house of representatives, and then we can all give a genuine shit about “balancing the budget.”
for now? just pass the stupid ass mcconnell kabuki in exchange for some stimulus shit. it worked last december. why that isn’t the deal in the works is completely beyond me.
Will Reks
@Countme In
This isn’t Rwanda, bro.
Satanicpanic
Is there even time for a deal anymore before the deadline?
jwb
Will Reks: Looks like Countme In has been edited out. I’m glad to see it.
ruemara
You don’t care? Ok, then this is the perfect spot.
Meet Kagebasho. Here he is… in flagrante delickto with Takkun. Things settled down, once the hot and heavy grooming ended, but I think this is Obama’s fault.
Kage Basho= Shadow Patch. His chinese name is juan qu-to curl, because he sleeps in curl, a lot.
JGabriel
Elisabeth:
Now if only wee could get the president to praise Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek, Paul Ryan, and Michelle Bachmann, maybe we could make some progress in this country.
.
General Stuck
Ratfucker
WaterGirl
I love the last line of Steve Benen’s post today:
sukabi
still theater… what’s likely to happen is a ‘clean bill’ to raise the ceiling… which is what’s the most common thing to do and what O originally wanted…
and fwiw, the ‘Gang of Six’ “compromise” deal was a big screwing for everyone not wealthy… so can’t say that I’m sad it’s doa…
RossinDetroit
Tired of moving the goalposts, they’ve cleared the field, chained it off and posted guards. If they can’t win, nobody’s going to play.
Mouse Tolliver
Might be nice if Dems would make opposition to Radical Rightwing Extremism a running theme nationally in the upcoming elections — as opposed to what I usually get in my purple home state: a Dem who runs against Democratic policies.
See how easy it is to say? Radical right. Radical right. It just rolls off the tongue.
aisce
@ tx expat
republicans shut down the government multiple times during the clinton administration. then they impeached him over a blowjob. i realize it was a whole 15 years ago, so you can hardly be expected to remember that far back.
DBrown
General Stuck – The public getting ‘it’ is like – Squirrel! – I mean, where was I? Oh, yeah, is like a hound dog – Squirrel!, uh, what, oh f’th it. Isn’t a pretty white girl missing or some hot blonde woman is on trial on a cable channel …squirrel … hey, uh, …the NfL is getting its act together and that is what really matters – squirrel!
JGabriel
@aisce:
It may well be in the works. Obama could easily be treating it like a red-headed step-child because he knows that any compromise that he’s even remotely enthusiastic about will get scotched by the teahadi.
.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
Note to soon to be homeless and starving people: Cole puts out a mean spread, so head down to his place during the post-L.A.B. depression.
Just don’t forget to bring some catnip for Tunch.
Also breathing, eating and the virtues of people who don’t drink bleach/ammonia smoothies.
Trollenschlongen
“just leave Britney aloooooone…”
Cole, you are adorable. Always bitching about how “emo” other folks are, and you are the most emo of all.
dmsilev
@ Elisabeth:
It’s been said before, but I’ll say it again: Obama could make his life much easier by engaging in a high-profile campaign to educate people about the dangers of licking power outlets, drinking bleach, and hop-scotching across major highways.
Jeffro
Oh my. I’m telling No Drama that y’all have called for the gasoline over here. I can tell you in advance he is disappointed and will be along to make you eat your peas shortly.
I think it’s called ‘last gasp before they cave’…well, enough of them to pass the Gof6 bill or whatever. If you take a random sampling of punditry online and on-air, a solid majority knows there will need to be tax increases. Same thing with most polls.
We can’t make Eric Cantor behave rationally, but his paymasters can make him vote the right way, or make him let enough of his wacko colleagues do so that his vote won’t matter. That’s what’s about to happen.
PS You know, peas are actually pretty good. =)
Just Some Fuckhead
Meh, I only got my house left and bags of cash disguised as pillows.
dmsilev
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen:
Great minds think alike, I see.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
I’m shocked! I’m shocked!
The wingers decline to raises a trillion dollars in taxes?!? Hoocoonode!
Where are the hand wringing obama bashers, now?
Just Some Fuckhead
You mean like holding the nation hostage to the debt ceiling?
stuckinred
Rachel is freaking out.
Guess what, there is not one motherfucking thing that all this jumping up and down is going to do to alter what is going to happen. Fuck it and drive on, it don’t mean a goddamn thing.
MikeJ
@TX Expat:
Well, it was the Democrats doing it last time, but Lincoln faced a similar level of fuckwittedness and believe it or not, an even higher level of actual trying to destroy the country. 2% of the population was killed that time. That would be over 6 million this time.
Ron
as I said on twitter, FDL is officially full of the crazy now. I can’t take them seriously.
TX Expat
@aisce:
The Republicans during the Clinton admin weren’t this radical or nihilistic.
Oh, and thanks for dripping condescension all over my keyboard. Wanker.
jwb
ok, this is weird. That atrocious comment by Countme In is visible again.
stuckinred
Ron
Now huh? shit
RossinDetroit
This has got to be hurting the GOP politically. They’ve followed their ‘principles’ out onto a limb with no way down. What percentage of the voters actually supports this intrasigence? 10%? 15?
Ron
@stuckinred: Well, for a while now, that’s true. It just boggles the mind. Do they think someone could successfully primary Obama from the left? And then have a viable general election candidate? I just don’t get it.
TX Expat
@MikeJ:
Yes, the antebellum period is what I was thinking of, but I’m not sure we’re there quite yet. We’ll see, though, if we blow through the deadline because at that point we’ll be in terra incognita.
Best case scenario (and this coming from someone who has an adjustable rate loan in deferment right now), we use this time to illustrate the extreme tendencies of the current crop of R’s and persuade people to jump ship.
stuckinred
RossinDetroit
37 right?
Anne Laurie
Ruemara: If you email me a pic of Kagebasho and Takkun, I can post it as an Open Thread!
I’m sure people will be glad to know that Little Homeless Norphan Kitty is doing so well… not to mention, we could all use some good news for a change…
scav
We may be just be on the wrong side of Apoptosis.
stuckinred
Ron
It’s a fucking cult. Christy gone, Marcy gone, hell, even T-Rex bailed. They remind me exactly of the hard core trots and sds fuckers that were so goddamn smart that all they did was talk talk talk.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@stuckinred:
These girls are too cute:
http://www.daylife.com/photo/09fp1TqcvK4XW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpDiDllu6ck
jwb
RossinDetroit: You’d think, but it hasn’t started showing up in either Obama’s approval rating (which has taken a serious hit from this whole thing) or the Congressional preference polls.
Jewish Steel
Countme In is a well-known parody troll, I believe.
stuckinred
Mike Kay
Rachel had a group of em on last night. I thought she was going to wet her pants.
Quiddity
There once was an Obot named Stuck,
Who finally ran out of luck,
when Barack said “Let’s deal”,
“It’s from senors we’ll steal”,
At which everyone said, “What the fuck?”
gpleigh
FDL doesn’t give a fuck who’s in the White House as long as they can stew in their own juices and have you chip in for their car payments and muffin delivery.
jwb
Ron: It’s all about grifting: outrage generates page hits and keeps the money from Grover Norquist flowing.
cleek
@Jewish Steel:
not sure about that. he’s been a regular over at ObWi, for years and years. and if it’s an act, he’s been amazingly consistent about it.
Davis X. Machina
@jwb: Wrong and strong has always been a winner.
Jewish Steel
@cleek: Ah! That’s where he’s from. Couldn’t remember the site.
The ranting insanity of it all, I assumed it was a parody. But it could be my naiveté.
Ron
@jwb: I suppose, but there are liberals falling for Jane’s crap, and it’s sad.
No one of Importance
Oooooh, such lovely kitties! You’re a lucky person to be owned by them
stuckinred
Ron’
I don’t think they are liberals, it’s old left bullshit.
RossinDetroit
@JWB;
Public opinion strongly lags current events unless the issue is clear and has strong media presence. Like 9/11. But this budget thing will take time to get into most people’s heads. I hope it will eventually become evident to the majority just what manger dwelling curs the GOP have been in this, and they’ll get sent to the doghouse in punishment.
Joel
#3
That’s some scary 株连九族 right there.
cleek
@Ron:
liberal does not preclude retarded
Ed Marshall
We are just fucked. They are going to run this vote up right to the edge, and you know how everyone thinks that they *have* to raise the debt ceiling? Well, that’s sort of right. The thing is, the vote is going to fail multiple times. Everyone involved has a massive incentive to play “screw your neighbor”. The game theory says it is going to take Armageddon, before enough of them get scared straight and quit trying to be the guy who voted “no”.
On edit: There are morons in the house who wouldn’t care about Armageddon, either. I don’t know if there are enough to destroy the country, but I wouldn’t count on it.
Corner Stone
@jwb:
Maybe the Hall Monitor made Blinky Cole put it back up?
burnspbesq
@stuckinred:
“T-Rex bailed”
TRex got run off. That was the last straw for me. I went from FDL to iamtrex to Relaxed Politics (aka the Beach House) to here. And eemom stalked me every step of the way.
Ron
@cleek: I’m aware of that. Still annoys me. Obama is hardly perfect, I’m well aware. But ignoring political reality is just stupid.
burnspbesq
@Quiddity:
A for meter, A for rhyming, D-minus for ideas.
RossinDetroit
In other news, notice how little attention Obama’s dumping DOMA got? In a normal news cycle, they’d be scraping social conservatives’ cranial shrapnel off the walls. But between Rupert and the debt ceiling, there’s just not enough outrage available to take on one more issue.
Caz
Which ideological values of the tea party do you disagree with?
I can’t see anything wrong with the follwoing values:
1. Strict adherence to the Constitution.
2. Fiscal responsibility (low taxes, balanced budget).
3. Reduction in the scope of the federal govt.
4. Stop interferring in global affairs that have no connection to U.S. interets.
But I know you think they are a bunch of racist anarchists. I guess even the well educated, successful among us can still be supremely ignorant and gullable.
driftglass
The last time we were this divided between not-crazy pragmatists and berserk-intractables we ended up settling the matter with Union Army bayonets.
stuckinred
burnspbesq
He lives right down the street but I rarely see him.
JWL
Cole, you are unhinged where criticism of the president is concerned.
stuckinred
driftglass
we were exactly this divided in 1968, trust me.
redshirt
Better to burn out than to fade away!
I am 100% OBOT. As stated above, that he’s navigating this maze of land mines, poison, and liars is beyond amazing. He’s the one Global Figure I have been most impressed by in my life – and I know a lot. Obama rules, and he’ll get us through this, if it’s possible.
Is it possible? I still say yes!
askew
That certainly isn’t anything new. Rachel has turned out to be such a disappointment. She is wicked smart and yet she spends most of her time breathlessly repeating moronic FDL talking points like gospel and blaming Obama for everything under the sun.
That said the gang of 6 deal is a pile of crap. Seriously, what was Dick Durbin thinking agreeing to that? It would kill the Democratic party for decades if they agreed to that nonsense.
jwb
RossinDetroit: I hope you are right.
stuckinred
Caz
Learn to spell before you come with that bullshit.
The Dangerman
@Ed Marshall:
If by edge you mean 8/2, I think it will go beyond that date and shut down of some form will happen…
…if you mean edge of a default, I don’t think that will happen. Far too much risk, far too many monied interests that are already coming out of the woodwork to call the Tea Partiers a wide variety of not nice names.
Someone posted above it’s theater; absolutely. There will be a clean bill, but first there has to be hell to pay.
Davis X. Machina
Caz is into the Refrigerator Poetry Magnets™ again….
scav
caz, the label may say corn-beef-hash but you’re selling shit ‘n’ turnips inside the tin.
cckids
ruemara@ 11: Wow, what a cutie Kagebasho is! Why does he wear the cone of shame, tho?
geg6
Fuck. I am so fucking tired of these mother fuckers that I’m driven to the same exasperation, Cole. This is shameful. Tea Party, my ass. Fucking traitors in my book.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
it’s been 2 1/2 years. you should know by now the wingers will oppose anything obama supports, even something they previously supported.
Cap-and-trade: they supported it until obama signed on, then they opposed it. End-of-life consultations: they supported it until Obama agreed, then they became death panels. No-fly zone: they loved it, until obama actually did it.
if obama had opposed the gang-O-6 deal, the wingers would have leapt to support it, if only to force obama to sign something he publicly opposed.
By announcing his support for deal, Obama ensured it’s defeat.
Of course, even now, after hundreds of examples, some on the left still don’t get the wingers are knee-jerk reactionaries.
Jewish Steel
Okay, now that’s a parody troll. Right?
I’m sure of it?
Trurl
That’s certainly foolish of her.
We don’t need to spend any money to tell people that Obama is the one trying to cut Social Security. The Republicans will be more than happy to do it on their own dime.
Sorry, Cole, but if pointing to Obama’s record counts as a “negative ad”, that’s your own fucking problem.
JPL
BTW..I never understood the T-Rex thing over at FDL. Of course I still figure that Christy being an Obama supporter might have hindered her blogging days as much as her health. I’d love for her to show up sometime. She’s a voice missed.
WaterGirl
Redshirt
I think Obama has a plan. And when the republicans are done with their tantrums, and still don’t have the sense to understand what they have done, and there is no hope of them passing anything in time, we will see what it is.
Ron
@askew: I don’t think that’s really accurate. She doesn’t like the “grand bargain” being suggested by the ‘Gang of Six’ but she actually spends a lot of time pointing out good things about the President. That’s a far cry from the FDL crowd who can’t say anything positive about him at all.
jwb
Mike Kay: I really wish he’d go all the way into opposite land some time just to see how strong knee jerk the reaction is.
JPL
The tea party leaders are birchers and libertarians. Call them that. The followers are cult victims that have no idea they are being led over a cliff when their social security and medicare are gone. Call them libertarians except for social issues.
Trurl
A mystery to baffle the ages: How could an intelligent liberal find fault with Barack Obama?
Maybe it’s a media version of 11-dimensional chess.
driftglass
Dance, Monkeybaggers, Dance.
http://driftglass.blogspot.com/2011/07/never-let-them-forget.html
Quiddity
@burnspbesq: Are you implying that the Gang of Six plan which Obama is speaking favorably about, doesn’t have cuts to Social Security? Because that’s what CBS and other national news organizations are reporting. What’s your source of information that says it’s not so?
max hats
Reading those comments at FDL: holy shit. They hate Obama more than the tea party people I know. By a LOT.
With friends like these. . .
The only upside is, come election day at least half of them at FDL will vote for democrats. Tea party folks, not so much. But that is seriously the only upside. None of the tea party people I know are actively donating money to run anti-Obama ads right now.
MAN they hate Obama. For some, it is because they see Obama as the enemy of the perfection of liberal rule that exists in their fantasies. But for most of them, it seems personal. I guess that’s where the Hillary is 44 people ended up.
I mean seriously, even the McCain fanatics have gotten over it by now.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
the wingers are lighting up on the gay bashing because gay gop blunders are finally objecting.
JPL
Quiddity…Show me the Obama comment. The appearance I saw clearly stated he hadn’t read it. JFC…BE HONEST>>>>
I will apologize if you can show me the comment today..
Yesterday he said he had not read it. I’m waiting to apologize asshole.
Suffern ACE
@Trurl – will she also be running an ad that the Republicans also are going to cut Socical Security? If not, she’s wanking again.
El Tiburon
So Obama is agreeing to cut Social Security and FDL can’t say shit about it? Makes sense to me.
Can someone plz tell me why we are supporting Obama again? Oh yeah, lily ledbetter and gay judges.
I say bring Bachmann on. Let it all burn. Then we can start over. Obama is just getting us closer to the edge.
More wars no jobs drone strikes black sites assassination on US citizens cuts to SS. Austerity fuck the liberals bow to the republicans.
Fuck him. You can have him. When the nation demanded a leader, we got a fucking putz.
eemom
I just couldn’t quit ya, burnsie.
@JPL
Christy has her own blog now — don’t know the address but I saw it linked somewhere. It’s a domestic type blog, not political.
Ed Marshall
@The Dangerman:
What I am saying is, even among those who understand the consequences, even among those who if you put a gun to their head and told them that they were the deciding vote that brought this on, there is an incentive for them to lie to each other and claim to be on board and then register a no vote, hoping that the thing has support from the suckers who aren’t playing the game. This will happen, and it will happen over and over again for some period of time.
handy
@Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century):
Shorter
JokerMike Kay: Why so serious?driftglass
There.
Is.
No.
Tea.
Party.
There is just the same old fucknozzle GOP base with a new Koch-funded paint job and funny hats. And they are never, ever gonna grow opposable thumbs and climb down out of the stupid tree.
General Stuck
I’m just glad we have our “true progressive/liberals/democrats like fuckhead and corner stone and there purity posse, to guide us confused Obot republicans down the road to
perditionsalvation, to see the light of real liberal jeebus, and dump that phony baloney nigger at the first opportunity. Ain’t that right boys? shit yea,kindness
Man you folks are harsh.
On a quick read if you gauge the FDL piece as how this proposition will effect the 2012 elections, I think they’re right. Here is what is a negative in the bill:
1) It cuts Social Security
2) It cuts MediCare (& Medicaid but that’s a foregone thing)
3) It lowers the tax rates for the wealthiest taxpayers & Corporations.
4) It will raise middle class tax rates.
Any one of these would screw a Democrat running for office. You slap all of them on one & can you say Republicans won’t use everything there to kill a Democrat in their commercials? Look what they did to Democrats in 2010 wrt cutting MediCare. Seriously now…. We know the Republicans are full of it when they say what they do. Hell they’re worse. But integrity & honesty isn’t one of the requirements in order to run for office as a Republican.
At this point, I’m goin’ with what The Big Dog recommended. Obama should go with a 14th Amendment call & dare the republicans to impeach him.
I know Obama actually wants to reduce the costs of Social Security, Medicare & Medicaid. But if he doesn’t realize protecting that stuff is about the only thing Democrats have going for them in the 2012 races, it’ll be Republican Senate & House. Too many folks buy the Republicans lies & the MSM refuses to call them on it. Obama needs to find his populist bones to win.
sacrablue
@ruemara: wow, I can’t believe you’ve had the willpower to leave the e-collar on this long. I wouldn’t have lasted another day.
max hats
@ El Tiburon
The core policy prescription for the netroots, revealed.
And to think, they call Republicans “Nihilists.”
Trurl
2008: Change You Can Believe In
2012: The Republicans Are Fucking You Too
danimal
I think it’s abundantly obvious now that the GOP ‘strategy’ is to not raise the debt ceiling and not compromise. They want the economic devastation, thinking it will help them politically.
We can not give them the benefit of the doubt any longer. They are not patriots. They are not principled. They are nihilists, bent on national destruction for their own gain.
They deserve much worse than they will get. Our job is to never forget, long after the media tells us that bygones are bygones. Never forget this treachery.
Mark S.
Well, I’m glad that
Bowles-SimpsonGang of Six plan is dying. If only David Broder were still alive to whine about how this centrist, bipartisan policy could have saved us all. I would have really enjoyed thathack’sGreat Journalist’s thoughts on the matter.For all you Obama haters, this quote from the TPM article was pretty interesting:
If that was Obama’s plan, that was some nice 11-D chess going on there.
Quiddity
John Cole’s rules for Obots:
Rule 1: FDL people are heretics, which is worse than being Republican.
Rule 2: Those who criticize Obama’s negotiating “skills” don’t understand politics.
Rule 3: Hey, some cuts in entitlements are okay because of brosygoenpqk.
Rule 4: We are never emo, only those outside the cult.
Rule 5: If you’re not careful, ABL will be unleashed with ALL CAPS outrage and Larry O’Donnel clips and somuchtexthatyouhavetoreadbeyondthejump.
Rule 6: There shall be no dissent.
Rule 7: There shall be no dissent. No matter what the O-man does.
Rule 8: Make a special effort to adhere to rules 6 and 7.
Davis X. Machina
@max hats: At least it’s an ethos.
max hats
1) Old people are already in the tank for republicans.
2) To the extent the social security vote is in play, the fact is republicans are on record wanting to cut it and medicare far more.
Chris
Social issues, and the national security state, and whenever government intervention is required for this or that corporate interest. Or just when they feel like it.
I’m not a fan of libertarianism, but those guys are pretty far into big government – just not the helpful or friendly kind. Branching out into libertarianism on economic issues is the exception rather than the rule.
max hats
Jewish Steel
@driftglass:
That is a point that bears repeating.
cleek
@El Tiburon:
the simple, bleak, answer is: because, the alternative will be worse.
if you don’t understand why that is a fundamental truth, you really, truly, honestly, need to take a deep breath, step back, and learn how the US system of elections and government actually works.
there is no pony. there is no liberal messiah. FDR was a myth. and reality is what it is.
Corner Stone
@max hats:
Wow. “Far more” ?
That’s a winner if I’ve ever seen one.
lol
Can anyone cite Obama actually supporting the Gang of 6 deal?
The only quotes I’ve seen are him using it as an opportunity to note that even conservative Republican Senators agree taxes need to be raised.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@El Tiburon:
Because 2000 called and asked how that ‘not a dime’s worth of difference’ worked out for you.
Corner Stone
@Quiddity:
Huh. I always thought brosygoenpqk was a kind of peasant soup made in lower Bratlavistan.
Some kind of beets and rye bread with chicken stock?
max hats
@Corner Stone
I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say. Do you think voters who prefer X will be indifferent to which party has been aggressive in trying to cut X, and which party cut X by way of compromise?
That would only matter when the voters in question might just get apathetic and stay home. Keep in mind, you are talking about the elderly.
None of your arguments square.
Lovatar
Its amusing, the current Democratic party is venerating Ronald Reagan, while at the same time a Democratic president Obama has cited him as a role model, someone who he would like to emulate, but yet its leftist hippies who aren’t realist and true Democrats.
For the little it matters to the Obots, Reagan was never and will never be my role model and he sure the hell is not someone I want to emulate. For those who can’t remember he put us on this path to destruction. Today’s Republicans are nihilist bent on destroying the country and today’s Democrats are the 80s era Republicans. Tell me again why I should support them.
For once I agree with John, let it burn.
ais
@ redshirt
is this post serious? for reals?
why is global figure capitalized? why are you telling us that you know a lot of them? and why all the exclamation points? did you get lost on the way to blackwaterdog?
that’s like half as silly as the fucking firebagger nonsense that’s overwhelming this thread. like quiddity. who’s clearly an insane person who should not be using the internet unsupervised.
Suffern ACE
So what’s the plan when it burns?
max hats
Also, this. What we are seeing with the FDL demographic is a bunch of people who really dislike Obama, and are eager to justify that dislike with any rumor or theory they can get their hands on.
And then they decide to pull together and run an op campaign.
Angry posters show up here, decrying John Cole for not “allowing” the FDL folk to express displeasure with Obama, when in fact what FDL is doing (and which John Cole can obviously not allow or disallow) is RUN AN OPPOSITION AD CAMPAIGN. I.E., work for the republicans. This should be a no-no for any political philosophy that ever seeks to have or hold any kind of electoral power.
It’s the old-school democrats. So conditioned to losing they’re unwilling to play to win. Success makes them yearn for the good old days.
Davis X. Machina
McCain took the 65+ vote by 10%, and Obama’s target demo has been told all their lives that SS isn’t going to be there for them, it’s all a shuck, the trust fund isn’t real.
Politicians read polls and respond to incentives.
“Winning the Future” doesn’t sound like an appeal to the 65+ vote.
I’m not saying it’s a winning strategy, I’m saying it’s a strategy — it’s not random.
WaterGirl
The Sheriff’s A Ni-
Nice
General Stuck
Now you know our long national blogmare that is the politically insane corner stone, who showed up to bash Obama in the primaries and has stuck with the same nonsense for 3 years now. I mean, what kind of maniac would do that. And pretend to be a democrat after voting for McCain.
Lovatar
@114 – The Sheriff’s A Ni,
I supported Gore in 2000 and have absolutely no plans to support Obama in 2012. Why, because now I understand the frustration of a group who feels their policies are not being addressed.
Why give a fuck, you care so much you get him elected. As far as I’m concerned a 2012 Republican is just a more evolved 80s Republican and todays Democratic leadership is equivalent to an 80s era Republican. Why encourage them in their evolutionary stupidity.
Jewish Steel
@Suffern ACE:
Make sure my weenies are kosher.
Corner Stone
@max hats: If you can recall a mere few months ago you may consider the Republican message of, “We’ll protect you’re Medicare!!”
And then you may consider wondering what kind of targeted messaging the Democrats will pull out of their asses when the try the 2012 version of John Kerry’s , “I voted for it before I voted against it.”
If you think this isn’t coming you’re a fool.
The only clear, winning message the Democrats had going into 2012 was the Ryan Plan.
Now what?
General Stuck
Ha! Genius my friend.
max hats
@ Corner stone.
What?
That is all. Just. . .what.
WaterGirl
Does anyone else think it’s really interesting that we are not hearing a peep about what was said in Obama’s meeting today with the democrats or in Obama’s meeting with the republicans?
Or is the information out there, and I have missed it somehow?
Davis X. Machina
@WaterGirl: Per TPM, a very tight embargo on hard comment from the Democratic meeting. No one on the record…. FWIW: “a House Dem aide offered the following readout of the White House meeting. “House Democrats continue to support the President’s “grand bargain” proposal that will not balance the budget on the backs of seniors through cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid beneficiaries.”
Kane
By refusing to sign on to any deal that will raise the debt ceiling, the Tea Party Republicans in the House are giving the Congressional Progressive Caucus more say in what the final deal will look like. The bill cannot pass without the votes of the “Gang of 70” Democrats in the House.
WaterGirl
Davis X. Machina
Thanks! I hadn’t seen that. (The link didn’t work but I was able to find it by googling your quote.)
Edit: I just don’t see how Obama can afford to let this go on that long.
Loviatar
@ 105 – Quiddity
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Great list, absolutely stealing.
.
oops, used the word stealing in regards to open content, now ABL is going to come out and mock me as a left leaning, bad smelling, hippie grifter.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
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@105 Quiddity
Also too, progressives should only attack regressive Republicans, and never regressive Democrats like President Obama. Of course, at the same time they feel that they themselves should be able to attack progressives instead of Republicans without charges of hypocrisy being leveled at them.
.
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Davis X. Machina
@WaterGirl: Elbow typing: I put two ‘http://’s in the link.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
Will do. And when he is re-elected – and he will be – don’t come crying back to us.
batgirl
Fuck FDL and the professional left. We’ve got two parties. Deal with it. One is the Democratic Party (which looks like your sane Republican party) and one is that batshit crazy fucked up beyond belief party. These are my two choices. I don’t have another choice.
Instead of bitching and moaning about how Obama is worse than Bush and that we’d better off with those crazy mother-fuckers, form a new political party and win some damn elections. Convince other Americans that your ideas are better. Go ahead. Come to my workplace and convince them to vote for you. Convince enough of them that you can win.
Think you can do that? While you are working on that I’m going to vote for the lesser of two evils thank you very much.
BTW, you seem so sure that a complete breakdown will create your idealistic society. It could also fucking well lead to Nazi Germany.
Ed Marshall
@Lovatar:
Well you are really, really fucked since that originated with the Progressive Caucus. If you have a problem with them, it’s time to organize the other six people within a few hundred miles of you who give a shit to become the vanguard party.
redshirt
@ais
Damn right I’m serious. I love Obama – sorry! I also love exclamation marks. And I’m saying I find him the most impressive and inspirational figure in my lifetime. And I think he’s amazing job as President, both objectively, and given the state of the opposition party.
Deal. Or vote Bachman. Or let it all burn down. Who cares, right?
jwb
I was wondering when we’d go Godwin.
Trurl
It now requires “magical powers” for a Democratic president to refrain from unilaterally volunteering to cut Social Security and Medicare?
Son, you’ve let Obama move the Overton Window so far on you that it ain’t even in the same house no more.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
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@137 Ratgirl
Fuck Batgirl and the other appeasers of the Right Wing.
That, and President Obama-brand appeasement and refusal to fight with every fiber of your being for justice, is exactly what leads straight to Nazi Germany. You’re soaking in a heating vat of it now, ratfucker.
.
.
OzoneR
Except they weren’t sitting in Congress because they left the damn country and formed their own.
jwb
Uncle Clarence Thomas: The dots, they aren’t connecting. That and you seemed to have drifted out of character. And for what? To yell “ratfuck”?
Trurl
A common refrain from battered wives.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
I wish those whiny fuckers would quit pretending and go full Metal TeaTard already.
Whoopsie, was that uncivil?
I wish there were a way to let them live under rule by tea party while I had control of the cameras recording the wailing, gnashing of teeth and filing down to the stadium for mandatory prayer sessions. (President Santorum presides over each one by satellite link.)
OzoneR
Liberals are so fucking pathetic, no wonder the right wingers laugh at you.
jwb
Trurl: How much is Grover paying you these days?
aisce
@ redshirt
i’d find him more impressive if we weren’t mired in a jobless recovery while 1000 americans had to go die for next to nothing in afghanistan. as it is, i’m only 93% obot.
i still want to hear more about these Global Figures you know.
@ uncle clarence thomas
dementia is hitting you hard, old man.
Keith G
@Lovatar
That is quite a statement there, kid. What exactly where you doing during the 80’s? I ask, because I spent a bit of time back then working for a variety of Democratic candidates and office holders. What you typed above is quite nonsensical.
Corner Stone
@OzoneR: Nick, your Strawberry Shortcake themed panties are showing again.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Trurl:
I’m sorry, I missed the part where “strengthening it for the future” means cutting it, and yes, I know people have been throwing those around. I also missed the part where the last time Obama negotiated “cuts” with the Republicans, they were actually cuts. Seems I recall his “cuts” causing a net gain.
There are, though, two issues that Obama is trying to take this chance to do something about. 1) With the boomers retiring, SS is going to be taking in less than it is paying out. 2) Too much of the current government budget is balanced on the money that should be for SS.
Now what’s interesting is that Obama is looking at ways to increase revenues.
Karen
Obama could say that beating your child and killing them should be illegal and the GOP would be demanding that they should have the right to kill their own child if they want to.
And people here think the GOP are better? Really?
I think when Obama says that he admires some of what Regan did, he means the ability to work with both parties. I hated Regan but I can see how working out a deal with both parties and having the communication reach could be seen as something to admire.
Can you believe that at one time, GOP actually had compassion?
And those of you who say that the GOP of 2012 would be more evolved and better than Obama, you either have been living under a rock and haven’t seen how the GOP has been stripping people’s rights, women and unions specifically or you hate Obama so much that you’re willing to vote for a party who does everything you hate over a man who only does some of what you hate.
You’re cutting off your nose to spite your face.
OzoneR
@Corner Stone
kindly stop responding to me, thank you.
Corner Stone
@max hats: Obviously you’re too naive or stupid to reconcile the fact that Democrats telling voting constituencies they wanted to cut SS and Medicare *less* isn’t going to be a very top sell in 2012.
max hats
@trurl
Oh? Where did he do that?
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@aisce:
I really can’t disagree with that. You go to election day with the electorate you have and all, but still at some point we really do need to fully exorcise the ghost of Reagan from the body politic.
Corner Stone
@OzoneR: There’s an easy way for that to happen.
jwb
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen: Seriously, they should get together and decide which Republican they’d like to get fucked by because it’s either Obama or lose from the left in 2012. The math isn’t that hard, and if they really feel that another four years of Obama would be a disaster for leftist politics I really want to hear which Republican would make the best president around which to rally the population to a new leftist politics.
JoshA
After Bush, I realized that the my goal isn’t good government. It is simply government that does the sensible and thing some of the time, instead of being an ongoing criminal conspiracy like it is under the GOP.
And even that goal is something you have to fight to achieve, and its getting harder and harder to do it.
Luckily, I’m sure the complete stark raving insanity of everyone who has an R after their name is something we can fix with a few FDL ads calling Obama a sellout.
Suffern ACE
@Trurl – Also a common statement by people who don’t have many choices.
You offering something else? Alternatives? Think those Greens are about to get organized to be a force in the political process? Think Jane seem capable to leading when the going gets tough in the short run? Ralph gonna do some serious party building this time after his 8th run for the presidency rather than just using progressives for another vanity run?
OzoneR
Yeah, you just stop.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Trurl: And a totally pointless analogy in this case because your other option is Freddy Kruger.
FlipYrWhig
@ lol:
No.
Correct. What he “embraced” was the idea that Democrats and Republicans could work towards a compromise that included both spending cuts and additional revenue. He does that, praising people who are willing to sit around a table and hash out some common ground. What _is_ that common ground? Well, that remains to be seen. But the praise was for the idea of constructive dialogue. Not for the plan itself. The blogosphere fucked that one up royal. Yet again. TPM led the way.
max hats
@ Corner Stone
Your argument is basically “Obama is bad at electoral strategy because he is cutting social security and it doesn’t matter if the republicans do it worse and oh my do I HATE him ever so much.”
Here is some science:
1) basing your opinions of a politician on their electoral strategy is insane
2) your analysis of electoral strategy is poor
3) this is the kicker – where is the evidence Obama is actually going to cut social security?
So you are literally angry about nothing, and how poorly Obama is doing that nothing you are so mad about, and how mad you are at Obama that he is going to lose an election you want him to lose.
You are so deep in crazy town it’s positively making my evening.
jwb
FlipYrWhig: Feature, not a bug as far as the blogosphere is concerned, since the misreading leads to poutrage, which leads to page hits.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
i think the idea is to wear out the people who pay attention, so they are happy with any deal. meanwhile, we can hope the gang of 6 would be doa in the house if not before. i still think its still politics til someone’s blind trust is halved in an afternoon of trading.
Corner Stone
@OzoneR: Well actually I was thinking you’d just create another sockpuppet and post under that name for a while.
But you’re right, you’re too stupid to pull that off for more than a thread or two.
OzoneR
@Corner Stone
I kindly asked you to stop talking to me twice, and you still keep going.
Loviatar
@150 – Keith G
I’ve asked this in other threads, so I’ll ask it of you.
Has Obama done anything you can say Reagan wouldn’t have done?
.
We can get into the specifics later on:
– of why I see the current Democratic leadership as similar in policy priorities to an 80s era Republican.
– of why I see the current Republican party as just an evolved version of the 80s era Republican party
– why I hate Reagan and refuse to support someone who profess to emulate him, while also enacting policies I see as a direct connect to Reagan
.
All fun subjects for later discussion
Corner Stone
@max hats: Actually, as any person who can read can easily determine, my comments started with you because of your blithering at #107 when you said this:
“2) To the extent the social security vote is in play, the fact is republicans are on record wanting to cut it and medicare far more.”
And I subsequently questioned your specific use of the term “far more”.
So stow your armchair psych somewhere else, you don’t have the chops.
jwb
max hats: Corner Stone is just angry. But he can also be a stitch when he gets on a roll.
Corner Stone
@OzoneR: Yes, indeed. I do.
Trurl
A clean conscience.
General Stuck
And one more sorry act for the neverending Obama Hater theater troupe, seizing on any tidbit of chaos to declare the man a traitor to the cause, whatever that might be for the cast of characters wanking out their lines and spiking the melodrama all over again.
You can almost set your clocks by it. And when reality shatters their little mean dreams, and nothing happens like the predicted vapors driven angst, we forget about it. Until next time. When the show must go on.
Corner Stone
@jwb: Are you now dropping some science on me?
danimal
I’m virtually socialist on economic matters. I believe the Bush tax
cutdeferrals were THE most harmful event of the Bush presidency. I believe in a strong safety net. I work for a social services agency for much less money than I could make in the private sector. Entitlements are, in a way, my life. Enough about me.We don’t know the details of the proposals being discussed and we don’t know what is being pushed behind closed doors. The hints we are getting about negotiations seem to indicate some technical adjustments to these programs that beneficiaries won’t even notice. Minor adjustments to Social Security COLAs or payment schedules to Medicare physicians or drug companies are NOT THE FCUKING APOCALYPSE THAT THE MANIC PROGRESSIVES MAKE THEM OUT TO BE. Like it or not, something needs to be done to stabilize Social Security and health care expenses are killing our treasury. Just saying no to all changes is not good enough. It is the virtual equivalent of the 27 percenters saying no new taxes.
I get it, you folks don’t trust Obama, he’s worse than the Republicans, etc, etc. Remember this: A deal is going to need House Democratic votes, and that means sign-off from Nancy Pelosi as well. If you are going to scream about Obama, you’re going to have to go after Pelosi as well. And frankly, if you’re anti-Obama and anti-Pelosi, you’re probably much of a Democrat anyway.
aisce
@ loviatar
um, yeah. expanding and defending gay rights. providing near-universal health insurance to the nation. appointing liberals to the supreme court. you know, just for starters.
fucking dumbass. you just bumped me back up to 94% obot.
cat48
Can anyone do a deficit deal that cuts $3T to $4T without touching SocSec/Medicare, etc.? A deal that would pass the House.
Standard & Poors & Moody’s both are demanding a Deficit Deal or the US loses an “A”; within 90 days. It’s on their websites & they are already warning states who have AAA, but will be downgraded if US is.
OzoneR
Just the fact that you asked this question shows just how unintereted you are in the answer.
Ron
Ugh. I think almost EVERYONE agrees that Obama isn’t perfect or a magical unicorn or whatever. I have no problem with someone criticizing him on policy issues as long as the criticism is based on reality (unlike say, Dan Choi). There’s a difference between criticism of policy and saying that it’s not worth supporting him in 2012 or trying to primary him.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
Call me when Obama fires striking union workers, sells weapons to terrorists to fund a dirty war elsewhere, and bloats the deficit on tax cuts and military spending.
Bonus points if he ignores a national epidemic that targets mostly gays and lesbians as well.
More bonus points for putting the next Tony Scalia on the high court.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
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@144 jwb
Then you are suffering from a short somewhere between your right and left earbud.
I didn’t, so I’m glad we have that cleared up now.
No, you’ll have to re-read it. But General Stuck does like to misuse the word and call progressives “ratfuckers” without any semblance of reason, so I thought I’d test it out on one of his fellow discourteous balloonbaggers. Is it effective? Didn’t think so. Will he read this and understand his own glaring stupidity? Well, he will read it, but…
.
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The Sheriff's A Ni-
Fuck everyone else, its all about you, huh? Boy do I have the perfect candidate for you, he even has his own blimp!
max hats
So until I started questioning your crazy electoral theories, you were perfectly sane. And then, you went insane.
Got it.
lol
Remember when Obama cut Social Security and Medicare in a desperate attempt to woo independent voters before the election?
Remember when Obama cut Social Security and Medicare during the lame duck session when voters weren’t paying attention?
Remember when Obama announced Social Security and Medicare cuts during the state of the union?
Remember when Obama cut Social Security and Medicare to avoid a government shutdown?
Loviatar
@ 175 – General Stuck
you know whats amusing about the Obots, your presumption that we neverending Obama Hater theater troupe dislike Obama personally or that we hate him for one specific policy fail. Well let me let you in on a little secret we don’t. One of the proudest moments of my life was the photos of the Obamas with the queen it was like damm there is a black man on an equal level with royalty. Also, I’m a realist, I know that all of my policy preferences can’t be met, shit I know that most of them won’t be met. However I want a Democratic president who governs with democratic ideals and policies, Obama has governed like an 80s era Republican.
I’m sorry I can’t accept that, I remember what they did to this country, I remember that they are the forefathers of the current Republicans. So go ahead use whatever bullshit term you want to use to disparage the hippies (non-pragmatic, non-realist, etc.) until Obama shows he is willing to govern like a Democratic president he has lost my support.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
More bonus Reagan points for Obama if it takes a TV movie to get him out of thinking of WW3 as the big film.
More bonus Reagan points for Obama for bloating the budget on fantasy missile defense systems.
Ron
Hmmm….wonder what got my last comment sent to moderation.
Trurl
Our definitions of “everyone else” differ.
Mine includes the Pakistani children whose little brown bodies Obama is playing Bugsplat with.
jwb
Loviator: So get real with your opposition: which Republican in 2012 will be best for your brand of leftist politics?
Corner Stone
@max hats:
I have the results of 2010 to point your ignorant ass to read. What’ve you got?
Unless you can show that a motivated block of seniors voting R was not the main reason the R’s swept into the House?
trollhattan
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
No shit.
For a “likeable guy” he was one corrupt motherfucker.
But…Van Jones!
slag
After listening to This American Life’s story on the natural gas industry’s corruption of the entire state of Pennsylvania, I’m ready to light the match myself. Luckily, this country is highly flammable.
OzoneR
I’ve avoided mentioning this because I didn’t want to listen to the Fuckhead brigade, but when I was in college and unsure of my political leanings, I remember all these left wing groups accosting me in the student union asking me to sign petitions about whales and Darfur and stuff and I kept thinking to myself “you people don’t really give a shit about any of this, you just pretend to.”
I’m not sure if my instinct was right, but I come from a very conservative area and at least there, the working class sees the left as an elitist group of people from the coasts who really couldn’t give a flying fuck about them, but pretends to anyway, and that offends them more than anything.
My family back home doesn’t particularly like Obama, but it isn’t Obama they have a problem with, it’s the left, those noisy rich liberals from New York and San Francisco who think they know what’s best for the working class of Seymour, Indiana, but they’ve never set foot in the city and wouldn’t be caught dead staying in a motel here. That’s what the white working class sees when they see Obama, his elitist coastal liberal supporters who are using them as a bargaining chip and nothing else.
So they gravitate to the tea party, not because they agree with their positions, but because they just hate liberals so much because of what they perceive is their ingenuousness that they must destroy them.
It really annoys me that the left doesn’t see that.
OzoneR
bless your little heart. I’m sure once we stop bombing Pakistan, you’ll get right over there building schools and tilling the fields so those little brown bodies don’t starve to death or become radicalized cause the rich Western nations forgot about them.
You couldn’t give a fuck about the plight of Pakistani children if they were starving to death or being kidnapped and forced to blow up churches and government institutions, the only reason you care about them is we happened to drop a bomb on them by mistake during a war. Ingenuousness.
Loviatar
@177 – aisce
Reagan came out of Hollywood and was quite clear in his support of Gay rights.
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PPACA is an expanded Insurance scheme, not universal healthcare, nor a path to universal healthcare. I could see Reagan supporting it.
.
Justice Sotomayor and Justice Kagan are moderates. Both replaced Justices who are to the left of them (David Souter and John Paul Stevens respectively) thus moving the court to the right.
.
Again my question is; Has Obama done anything you could not see Reagan doing?
OzoneR
Now I know you’re not being serious.
Lit3Bolt
@ OzoneR 195
Just like we on the left see people on the Right pretending to care about Jesus, unborn black babies, killing brown people on countries they can’t even find on a map, and defending extremely wealthy white people who live on the coasts but they KNOW are true Christian good ol’ boys? Is that the kind of resentment you’re talking about? By the way, great priorities there to base all your political views on your own butthurt resentment.
Grow the fuck up.
jwb
Loviator: I believe when Souter had been on the court only as long as Sotamayor and Kagan, he was still considered reliably conservative.
OzoneR
My criticism is that [the gay movement] isn’t just asking for civil rights; it’s asking for recognition and acceptance of an alternative lifestyle which I do not believe society can condone, nor can I.
Ronald Reagan- 1980
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_policy_of_the_Reagan_administration#Shilts
slag
@OzoneR:
Oh give me a break. There are many things that annoy the shit out of me about my leftist brethren but your family being a clot of imbeciles isn’t even close to being one of them.
Loviatar
@ 177 – The Sheriff’s A Ni
I like how you twisted my question. It wasn’t has Reagan done anything that Obama wouldn’t do.
My question again is; has Obama done anything that you couldn’t see Reagan doing?
OzoneR
Who said it was my resentment, I moved to the fucking coast to get away from it.
You want to win working class votes, then you’d better get a clue and understand how they feel, however illogical it is, or you can ignore it and be left making excuses when they vote Republican.
gwangung
You were actually planning to prove his point, right?
OzoneR
Again, it doesn’t matter how this question is answered, because you’re not interested in the answer. For chrissakes, you think Reagan was a gay right supporter, no one is this delusional.
OzoneR
My family is whom you claim to be your base. How are you planning on getting their votes, because you haven’t had them since 1976, despite the fact that the people they voted for have screwed them in every way possible since.
By the way, calling them “a clot of imbeciles” isn’t going to help, it’s proving their point.
lol
@199: Those are pretty good examples too.
Another good example is the belief on the left that if we let the system crash and burn to the ground, a truly progressive government will arise from the ashes with the support of the people.
And yet another good example is the belief on the right that if we let the system crash and burn to the ground, a truly conservative government will arise from the ashes with the support of the people.
The fantasies of Atlas Shrugged aren’t just for glibertarians.
slag
@gwangung: His point that his family are a clot of imbeciles? I think he proved it nicely without my help.
max hats
@ rock in the corner
Are we going in circles? You said this same thing, then I pointed out the standard “the republicans are worse” and then you started talking about Kerry or something and completely lost it. Do you want to have this entire thing again? Why? Are you lonely?
To cut to the quick: your entire premise is supposition, and weak. There is no evidence Obama is going to do anything to social security.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
Bullshit. You have repeatedly stated that you would be fine with Libyan kids getting rolled over by their own government. And you’re perfectly fine with your own fellow American kids getting the shaft from the Teahadis. Fuck them if they have to suffer for your own sainted purity, right?
burnspbesq
@Quiddity:
Ah’m not playing your Gang of Six game, you silly English bed-wetting type. Ze Gang of Six is eeeerelevante! Zair reeeeeedickulous plan is going straight to le Nowhere.
Now go’way, or I shall taunt you a second time.
gwangung
No, I guess it wasn’t your plan.
Proved his family’s point without much effort. Sigh.
lol
I can’t wait to hear your plan for implementing a progressive paradise solely on the backs of left coast hipsters who think voting is too mainstream.
Corner Stone
@max hats: God. Yes, let’s have this complete thing again please. Please start from the beginning, if you will indulge an old man.
moonbat
“Has Obama done anything that you couldn’t see Reagan doing?”
He’s cut Defense spending on useless weapons/equipment programs.
How many of these do you need before you check your premise?
Corner Stone
@slag: slag, my internet person. It seems you’re about to cross the line into firebaggerhood. Maybe you should consider pledging fealty post haste?
General Stuck
Total nonsense. The list is long of bills passed under Obama, and virtually none of them would have been passed by republicans of the 80’s or any other time. Beginning with the largest single discretionary spending bill in history that was The Stimulus bill, laden with all sorts of funding for long term R and D for progressive initiatives like alternative energies and bio tech. Lily Ledbetter, repeal of DADT and a host of other social justice bills would not have been touched by any repub ever. And now he is working the repeal of DOMA.
And then there is HCR, that no gooper would touch with a ten foot pole, ever, for any reason. Other than to talk about reform. These bills were some compromised, but mostly to satisfy a few blue dog dems for passage, and no wingers, as few repubs have voted for about anything Obama has promoted.
Now if you are talking about how Obama “talks” sometimes, then you could make a case that he sometimes talks like republicans of the 80’s, but that is for pol posturing strategy, that so many progs just don’t get, or won’t get that. Your approval is largely based on how he makes you ‘feel’ , but has little to do with what he actually does.
That is solidly mainstream liberal, not leftist, legislation that goes about as far as it can go and still get the votes to pass. So the notion that Obama is any kind of republican is utter bullshit, in real life governing, or on a personal level.
Loviatar
@ 206 – moonbat
HaHaHa, thanks for the laugh.
We are talking about the defense budget that continues to rise at a rate not seen since the cold war right. Yeah Obama has done some big old cuttin’ there.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
I would say working towards dismantling DADT/DOMA, appointing liberal judges, and trying to actually balance the budget, but you’ve already handwaved all of that away.
Instead, I’ll just sit here and have one hell of a gut laugh.
Marc
If you know any gay folks who were, well, alive during the Reagan administration they’d disagree with you.
You’re making excuses for *Reagan.*
Christ.
Either hatred of Obama has driven you nuts or you’re pretending to be a lefty to divide the other side.
Useless either way.
jwb
Loviatar: You’re all hat, no cattle just as I figured.
OzoneR
tax the rich and those Upper East Side hipsters will come out in droves.
J. Michael Neal
G. Stuck: On a different topic, how’s that Edgar Renteria contract that you insisted was brilliant working out for you?
Cacti
Off the top of my head…
Fair pay legislation, SCHIP expansion, hate crimes legislation, PPACA, extending unemployment benefits, repeal of DADT, and nominating Kagan and Sotomayor to SCOTUS
slag
@OzoneR:
Actually, I don’t claim to have a base.
And you’re kidding with this, right? I’m somehow supposed to feel bad for pointing out the obvious? Is this where liberal guilt is supposed to kick in? You’re the one out here demonstrating your family’s imbecility. If you really cared about them, you’d make up a remotely plausible excuse for their behavior. Like maybe they’re all covert billionaires in the process of creating a reality show about how the unthinking tribal half live.
Trurl
A fate you’re going to save them from by blowing them up with NATO ordinance.
Afterward, they can express their gratitude with those oil leases Gaddafi was making trouble about.
Since you bring it up: How is the Days Not Weeks war going? Just one more Friedman Unit before we bring the bastard to heel?
Ed Marshall
@OzoneR:
You want a JSTOR account? I’m not Aaron Swartz, but I’ll hand out my account to firebagger types in a really desperate attempt at trying to make available political science information. It beats the living hell out of what goes on at FDL.
gwangung
And you’re demonstrating why they won’t trust your or anything you say and why they’re working as hard as they can against you.
If you really cared about implementing your positions, you SHOULD feel bad for treating like dirt and justifying their contempt toward you.
slag
@Corner Stone: Across this line you do not! And dude, fealty is not the preferred nomenclature. Sympathy for the devil, please.
Loviatar
@218 – General Stuck
you know I was going to spend a good bit of time responding to your post, then I realized that you wouldn’t pay any attention to my facts. You have you perception of the neverending Obama Hater theater troupe and nothing is going to change your mind.
– I was going to write how the 80s era Republican would support The Stimulus bill as it was laden with Republican sweeteners (tax cuts, bulk grants to states.
– I was going to write about how the 80s era Republican would support PPACA as an expanded Insurance scheme as it benefits several of their core constituencies (seniors, Insurance industry, big business).
– no gooper would touch with a ten foot pole, ever, for any reason. you ever hear of Romneycare, you know that healthcare plan that was instituted in Massachusetts a few years ago by a Republican Governor.
.
Whether they are actually insane is of no importance; they are behaving as if they are. Robert Prather
You Obots don’t seem to realize that 80s era Republicans are (Frum, Bartlett, etc.) as horrified of the current Republicans as everyone else, so I don’t compare Obama’s policies to theirs, I compare his policies to sane Republican party policies. Obama governs like an 80s era Republican.
slag
@gwangung:
Oh absolutely. Or…maybe they should feel bad for inspiring my contempt toward them. Show some self-respect, for fuck’s sake. Or, at the very least, don’t pretend your lack of it is some sort of virtue.
Dennis SGMM
All that needs to happen is for Debbie Wasserman Schultz to challenge Eric Cantor to a steel cage deathmatch. Cantor will shit himself to death on the spot. Wasserman Schultz need only stand up on the House floor the next day and ask the Republicans “Which one of you bastards wants to be next?”
A clean debt ceiling bill will be passed with alacrity.
General Stuck
false, not laden. part of it was tax cuts for the poor and middle class with temp breaks on payroll tax. Near half was for liberal projects for R and D.
False. They might say they supported it, but would never vote to pass it. Like they didn’t vote for it now. Very silly argument.
You can say about anything, but the above is patently false.The only disagreement that people like Frum are worried about is current tactics by the GOP, not that they don’t agree with their policies. Frum, Bartlett, and every single republican, or near so, on the planet, hates the ACA with a passion.
I will tell you who does remind me of 80’s republicans, and current ones, or at least is helping them as much as possible, are the braindead progressives, the wingnut’s best fucking friend.
Suffern ACE
Why? To protect them from you? Shield them from your contempt?
Loviatar
for all those who keep pointing out Fair pay legislation, SCHIP expansion, hate crimes legislation, PPACA, extending unemployment benefits, repeal of DADT, and nominating Kagan and Sotomayor to SCOTUS I’ll give you that. While I disagree on several and could make the argument I won’t, Obama deserves full credit for doing all those things.
.
Now lets talk about policies that can actually change the direction the countries heading in and Obama’s record on those.
– Ending the war in Iraq is it over, have we withdrawn our troops, why are we planning on keeping troops there beyond 2012
– Universal Healthcare – PPACA is not UHC, nor a path to UHC. It is a half-ass expanded Insurance scheme, what is the plan for UHC
– The Economy – Where is the Jobs plan, Where is the plan to return to a balanced budget that does not entail cutting social benefits, where is the plan to punish those who perpetrated the Great Recession
– Civil Liberties – Why have we not rolled back our civil liberty protections to the pre-Bush era
.
All of these are core policy priorities that could change the direction of the whole country. Where has Obama been on those priorities?
Marc
What a useless game. Loviator simply will brush aside anything that doesn’t fit his story. You know – the Moral Majority side of the Republicans, the red-baiting, the attacks on unions, cutting taxes on the rich; the intense hostility to civil rights (you do know where Reagan opened his campaign with a “states rights” defense, right?)
The entire spectrum has moved to the right, but there is no reasonable way to put Obama to the right of national republicans from the 80s. None. He’s to my right, but so what?
Edit: This will be a game of Calvinball with ol’ L; not worth the effort.
General Stuck
It’s 30 million more people who will get insurance that wouldn’t have been able to if the bill didn’t pass. UHC, as defined as 100 percent coverage of everyone in this country, is a meaningless stricture on the reality that a lot more folks are going to get covered. Up to 96 percent by most guesses. What a silly argument to make to diss an accomplishment of the dem party. Not to mention all the regulations that will help people, and provide for more health care security.
Corner Stone
@slag: I’m just doing my best to see that you don’t pull a cleek. Someone’s going to hang the firebagger tag on you, and then some will run screaming like a little punk bitch as fast as they can away and nestle their nose solidly into the accepted territory of BJ.
lol
Is this where Loviator once again pretends that 100K troops haven’t been removed from Iraq?
slag
@Suffern ACE:
Well, if it’s so important what I think about them, then yes. Otherwise, it’s just a nice thing to do for people…to not parade them around as grade AA examples of unthinking jackassery.
slag
@Corner Stone: Oooh. Someone might say mean things about me. Holy shit! I better run and join the FDL/Tea Party so that I can feel all better about myself while simultaneously proving how true all those mean things someone might have said about me are.
Loviatar
@234 – General Stuck
1/3 tax cuts, 1/3 block grants, 1/3 actual stimulus spending. Poor me, I though when something was 2/3 one way vs 1/3 another that the term laden was appropriate I guess not.
So I guess all those Republicans who voted for Medicare part D, which directly benefits their core constituencies (seniors, Insurance industry, big business) didn’t really vote for it. We should have an investigation to see how it got passed and signed into law.
Ok whatever you say. But you should read the people you claim to quote before putting words in their mouths.
General Stuck
Yer dense as a brick shithouse. And you aren’t alone.
Loviatar
@240 – lol
I guess this is in reference to when I pointed out to you that Obama has not removed 100,000 from Iraq. I provided references from the Congressional Research Service to back up my claim, you provided anecdotal evidence from Matt Yglesias. I then wrote how a goodly portion of those have been rotated into another war zone (Afghanistan), you wrote Bueller, Buellr, Bueller, FIREBAGGER.
So yeah, I feel burned from that one, should have known better.
Bobby Thomson
FTFY
Hamsher’s a Republican now.
Woodrow L. Goode, IV
John, thanks for admitting that Barack Obama wants to cut Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.
The $10 is for ads urging people not to re-elect any candidate who supports those cuts. For Obama to get targeted, he’d have to do that.
It’s been obvious to everyone who can perform inductive reasoning that Barack Obama wants to make those cuts. Every time he has a mechanism to increase the debt limit without making cuts, he punts it. McConnell gave him a way to get a clean vote and Obama set Harry Reid to incorporate the most noxious provisions of the Catfood Commission into it.
Bill Clinton– who like Obama, is a 1970’s Republican, but a much, much smarter politician than Obama will ever be– just said that he’d be waving the 14th amendment. Obama has ruled that out, and now the terms are getting truly appalling.
When you go into a hostile negotiation, it is necessary to take both a carrot and a stick. Progressives have tried offering carrots and Obama hasn’t been interested.
I would have imagined that the 2010 version of the stick would have worked. The people who got him elected and gave him huge majorities didn’t go out to the polls to maintain it and the teabaggers took control.
It’s been harder for Obama to get anything accomplished, and he is in danger of becoming a one-term president. But he can’t seem to get the message and keeps tacking rightward.
The next step is to demonstrate that progressives– who, according to Nate Silver, represent 40% of the party– have limits. I don’t want to live under President Bachmann, but I’m even less interested in:
1. Seeing Barack Obama cooperating with Speaker Cantor and Majority Leader McConnell, because he feels the American people have spoken.
2. Learning what the Third Way/DLC position is after that.
I went though this nonsense in 1979 with The White Jimmy Carter, when I was being told that if I didn’t support all the right-wing programs the president was pushing, I’d be responsible for getting Reagan elected.
In retrospect, the people who deserted Ted Kennedy and the group who shunned John Anderson (they were different, although there was some overlap) and came to Carter would have been better off staying away. The Village decided that you could mau-mau the hippies because they wouldn’t leave, the left and its natural constituency stopped voting and our framework has been fundamentally dismantled in the past 30 years. The country would have been much better off if people felt like they had to negotiate with the left to the same degree that they do with the right.
The collateral damage will be immense, but since the retirement age is likely to be raised to 72– and abortion criminalized– between 2013 and 2016, it will be much easier to rebuild if Obama is disgraced and out of power, rather than using his bully pulpit to provide cover and further decimating liberalism in the US.
Midnight Marauder
Irony. You fail to understand it.
slag
@slag: BTW, in case it wasn’t clear, that was a little parable. Just thought I’d mention.
Loviatar
@247 – Woodrow L. Goode, IV
Agree with your comments.
Following is part of the plan that Obama called a good first step, I hope he gets started on that 11-dimensional chess negotiating strategy soon because this is bad.
Bernie Sanders Gets Sarcastic, Rips Gang Of Six Plan
Bobby Thomson
@suffern ace 92
Of course not. She’s on their payroll.
OzoneR
My family may be stupid, but your utter contempt for them and you’re inability to at least admit they need to be shown a different path by someone they can trust is truly telling. First you want the Democratic Party to defend people like them and then you want to call them imbeciles at the same time and cry in your chai latte every election night when you don’t understand why Republicans win a third or more of the union vote.
OzoneR
Revisionist history? They DID stay away, that’s partially why he lost.
OzoneR
Let me tell you how this is going to work, once the retirement age is 72 and abortion is criminalized, Americans will accept that as the new normal and Democrats are NEVER going to be able to turn that back and politics will move even more to the right.
It’s simple, Republicans win, politics moves to the right, Democrats win, it goes left. I can’t understand how so many liberals are so surprised that the largest Republican House majority since 1950 have moved politics to the right so much.
FlipYrWhig
Did Obama call _the plan_ a good first step, or did he call the idea that Democrats and Republicans could find some common ground a good first step? Everything I’ve seen indicates the latter.
Bobby Thomson
@221
Yep. And my money’s on the latter. They’ve spent big money on the faux purity trolls this cycle.
Loviatar
fixed
Just Some Fuckhead
@OzoneR:
Apples don’t fall too far from the tree, eh?
Sorry, missed the entire thread: The DirecTV guy finished installing the system and I wanted to see all the cool new sports channels.
Scanned the thread quickly and saw you and General Stupidity shitting yer Strawberry Shortcake-themed panties over me. It amuses me.
dead existentialist
This thread demonstrates why liberals/progressives/the left can’t have nice things. They’d just “burn them down” out of spite. Talk about the FYIGM that the right is known for.
Meh, maybe it’s the heat that has everybody cranky.
OzoneR
Funny how you and Corner Stone use the same phrase. Funny that.
FlipYrWhig
@ Shot Heard ‘Round The World : I don’t think so. There really are purist leftists. It’s the left equivalent of libertarians — much more common and vocal online than in meatspace.
OzoneR
Well, what else can you do when you can’t win and it’s too hard to try?
Loviatar
@262 – OzoneR
you what gets me about things like this
.
we did win, it was called Obama ’08. And I know for one I tried really, really hard for that win.
Just Some Fuckhead
Funny weird or funny haha? Because I laughed out loud when I read it upthread.
dead existentialist
OzoneR
Yeah and as we pointed out, we got pretty good legislation out of the first two years and then paid the price for it at the polls.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Calamity Jane’s Manic-Progressive Plan:
1: Build outrage.
2: Start fund drive to fill bank account.
3: Profit!
The best part is that she was able to avoid using the underpants gnome to achieve her goal.
This seems to be the standard manic-progressive plan of today. Get everyone they can really pissed off way before the election so they can sponge some bucks off of them. It doesn’t matter if it’s a Repub or a Dem as president, it’s a fund-raising opportunity!
O-bot out.
cbear
Well, judging by your not inconsiderable body of work here on this blog I can certainly understand why you haven’t made much headway.
Here’s another thought: if they are anywhere near as fucking tedious as you are then I prefer to leave them wandering the wilderness until natural selection works its wonders.
J. Michael Neal
Loviatar: Go back and take another look at what Sanders said. In particlar, notice his target: Republicans. He doesn’t like the Gang of Six plan, and he trasins his fire on the real enemy: Republicans. You don’t see him going on at length about Obama. Sure, there is an implication in there, but he goes after Republicans by name.
All of which indicates that he is a fuckload smarter than you are. You aren’t going to shift any Overton Window, or produce better results in negotiations, by hammering Obama. That’s because he has a much better sense of what Democrats in aggregate want: compromising to get results. I’m sure you don’t believe that, but it’s backed up by all of the polling.
Attack Republicans. Attack them relentlessly. If you want to drop hints that you are unhappy with Obama, feel free to do so. But please recognize that you are a part of a rather small minority, even among Democrats. Make all of your rhetorical points, but do not stop bashing Republicans. They are the real problem, and every bullet you shoot at Obama is one less you have to shoot elsewhere, as well as undermining the most liberal person who can win an election for President at this moment in time.
As an aside, are you taking the name of the hot chick D&D goddess or pain and torture, or the name of the actually Finnish hag goddess of pestilence? Either way, color me unimpressed.
Loviatar
@269 – J. Michael Neal
Ahhh, so because Obama’s on our side we shouldn’t point out our disagreements with him.
Go Team Go.
.
Nahh, I don’t buy into that, if I did I would have become a Republican.
.
– just like Obama listened to the polling that said Americans wanted Universal Healthcare – we got PPACA
– just like Obama listened to the polling that said Americans wanted the end to the Bush Tax Cuts for those making over $250,000. – we got all of the Bush Tax Cuts extended
I could go on, but I figure you got my point. If you didn’t; Obama listens to the polling that matches his policy preferences not the American peoples.
.
Color me bored you figured out the meaning of my screen name.
Just Some Fuckhead
@cbear:
How’s that whole pretending to be other people thing work in real life. No, mom, it’s not me. I’m *lowers voice* Raul.
At any rate, he’s pretty clearly morally challenged and I’m sure those that know him in real life take that into consideration in these sorts of things.
William Hurley
You may dislike Hamsher and the FDL stable, but they’re on Obama. The opportunity to primary the Big O has passed. It seems to me that the minor swell in pursuing that course was quashed by the legislative orgy that was the “lame duck” session of 2010. The bucket-o-bills turned law was a result of shrew and hard work on the parts of Leader Reid but, principally, Speaker Pelosi. Obama’s only lifted a finger to take-up his law-making pen. But, as the world of the Village works, Obama got more public credit that he deserved – and we’re now getting what we deserve for complacency.
a couple of data points. The MSM has glummed onto the statistical point that no President has been re-elected when unemployment is at or above 7.2%. Following Calculated Risk’s lead, I teased out the numbers toward divining an average monthly “new jobs” number needed to get from 9.2% (the official, officially understated U2 stat) to the electability threshold of 7.2%. Over the 14 months from August to Sept 2012 (numbers to be reported in October 2012, the final employment report before (s)election day) the economy will need to generate ~475,000 new jobs every month to get to 7.2%. Given that the present monthly average since Obama took office is slightly less than 100k/mo, increasing that number by 4-fold starting in 10 days is – at best – highly unlikely.
If the SCOTUS gets a crack at the ACA before the election, the Falangist wing will deliver mortal wounds that will render it DOA – with no time on the clock to rebuild/repair.
Obama intends to raise $1 billion. That’s not enough – by half in my estimation. CU and Arizona’s AFEC free businesses and intermediaries (e.g.: American Crossroads) to raise ad spend in complete secrecy and without limit. Energy, transportation, defense and the financial services industries are beneficiaries of hundreds of billions in government largesse via many avenues and conduits. Carving out $2 or $3 billion to save ~$100 billion is a path businesses (and their enablers) will pursue in the course of buying political outcomes that secure their mother’s milk.
Between unemployment, a stagnant economy and Obama’s Uber-Bushian undocumented resident deportation efforts, latinos and hispanics will deliver a decidedly smaller turnout that will be more evenly distributed than in 2008. So to with other minority groups – an ballot-box giveaway that will rob Obama of crucial percentage points in key, high electoral vote value states such as Florida, Ohio and California. Yes, Cali. Remember the housing bust that HAMP wa supposed to remedy. HAMP did nothing but hamper home-owners opportunity to unchain themselves from homes (formerly known as “liquidity ATMs”) that are now upside down. California, Florida & Ohio are critical electoral vote states that were each crushed by housing’s collapse.
I could go on, raising matters discussed more eloquently than I ever could by Glenn Greenwald. In short, Obama’s made Bush look like a open, hippie commune when it comes to security state power grabs. Killing OBL will win him points, but Nov 2012 is a long way away from now. The electorate is notoriously forgetful.
So, FDL may annoy but their views on using politics to get one’s political goals met is exactly the way Democrats of old used to do things.
Loviatar
So Obama is giving away his one negotiating tool that could actually force the Republicans to sit down and negotiate in good faith.
I hope he gets started on that 11-dimensional chess negotiating strategy soon.
White House signals openness to short-term debt extension if tied to ‘larger deal’
.
For all those who are going to point out that its tied to a larger deal, I have three words for you: Bait and Switch.
Woodrow L. Goode, IV
@ Loviatar (250)
I love you too, man. I admire your willingness to argue policy with people who don’t know history, don’t understand government, can’t calculate opportunity cost or marginal gains and have such a blinkered view of politics that they think naming one achievement invalidates a systematic assessment of all of someone’s policies.
(Not to mention the people who want to give Obama credit for laws that haven’t gone into effect yet, meaning that we don’t know if (a) they ever will go into effect and (b) whether they will turn out, when put into effect, have the impact its proponents imagine they will.)
Obama’s speech to the college kids the other day demonstrated beyond any doubt that he does not understand American Government. Anyone who has spent time reading Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, Franklin, Jay and Nancy Grace (Michelle Bachmann told me that she was a founding father) knows that they designed the U.S. Constitution to function in an environment that was relentlessly and overwhelmingly partisan.
Having watched the Federalists and the Republicans tear at each other– shredding the Articles of Confederation with constant warfare– the Founders designed a system that would use the extreme partisans on both sides as a balance.
If the government were working the way the Founders intended it, the hippies would be preventing Obama from giving one inch more than necessary, while the Teabaggers would be guaranteeing that Cantor and McConnell extracted maximum concessions.
When one of the players on one side commits himself to making a deal with his opponents, no matter what they ask for, he’s guaranteed an unfair outcome for the voters he represents.
Madison or Hamilton (maybe both of them; I can’t remember the credits for each essay) devoted several of the Federalist Papers to precisely this issue. If they were alive today, they’d be appalled at Barack Obama for abrogating his responsibilities. (Adams and Jefferson, judging from their letters, would excoriate Obama; his type of bipartisanship existed back then and they thought it was destructive.)
It’s amusing to see the dimwits screaming that Jane Hamsher and Grover Norquist once worked together, because this is exactly the sort of thing the founders desired. The notion that there would be political parties– each demanding rigid compliance from members on all issues– was precisely what they feared. They wanted things sprawling, multivariate and messy because it promoted fairness (a couple of them would have banned parties if they could have figured out how to do it).
A policy that so many citizens opposed– even if they did so for different reasons– would be something that deserved to fail for lack of responsiveness to the majority’s wishes. This notion of grand bargains imposed by a Patrician class that isn’t impacted by its consequences is the most undemocratic form of government imaginable.
I’m willing to consider opposing arguments that demonstrate some understanding of these issues, but most of these people you’re fighting with don’t have the faintest idea of what they’re talking about. I’d prefer to see the debt limit raised, but if Barack Obama won’t permit that to happen without bundling in draconian cuts– if those are the only two options he’ll allow– then we’re better off defaulting.
Loviatar
@273 – Woodrow L. Goode, IV
How do you educate unless you teach. I’m willing to listen to the insults and name calling if even a few consider what being done in their name.
Agree with most of your post, particularly the section where you describe why the founding fathers (and Nancy Grace) set up the constitution the way they did. If Obama’s is Reagan to Eric Cantor’s insanity then any policy produced will have a right wing tilt.
Disagree on this:
The amount of financial distress this would cause to those least able to handle it would be devastating. I would rather see a clean debt limit bill passed – ala a Housekeeping Procedure – with negotiations for the other things done as a separate issue.
If nothing is done on the other issues I’m fine with that, the status quo right now is so far better than anything proposed I would rather putter along with it than sign on to anything negotiated by Obama and the Republicans.
cbear
Too funny.
I haven’t kept up enough over the last year to be sure who is sockpuppeting, spoofing, etc, but I’ve been thinking this dude sure sounds like Joe from Lowell—tedious, verbose, prolific, spectacularly immune to logic or irony, and totally lacking in self-awareness.
What do you think?
Woodrow L. Goode, IV
@ OzoneR (253)
There were 80 million votes cast in 1976, and 83 million in 1980, so it isn’t that simple. The “Peanut Gallery” (the 1980 version of the O-bot) pointed out that:
1. Carter got 40 million in 1976
2. Carter got 35 million in 1980
3. Anderson got 5 million– which, if added to Carter’s 1980 totals, would have matched his 1976 totals.
The problem with that math is that Reagan collected 43 million– 4 million more than Ford had in 1976. So, even if the Peanut Gallery had been correct (all of Anderson’s voters would have voted for Carter), he would have lost to Reagan.
That logic, however, doesn’t really work. Data indicates that a substantial number of Anderson’s voters were Republicans freaked out by Reagan’s (for the time) extremism. Had he not been in the race, they might have either not voted (turnout was down 1%) or maybe have stayed with Reagan.
It isn’t possible to say– although the Villagers sure didn’t see it that way. One thing that hasn’t changed is that every election the Democrats lose is always the fault of the hippies.
Of course, that ignores the fact that the hippies told Carter not to follow the wishes of the Neocons and give the Shah of Iran asylum (which is why the embassy was stormed– then Carter wouldn’t give him back because he didn’t want to seem weak)– but I’m sure you can find someone who’ll tell you it was our fault too.
Death Panel Truck
A great thing about the progressive version of the circular firing squad is that it never seems to run out of bullets.
Asshole.
cbear
Death Panel Truck—
Nice nic. You must be one of ozoner’s country cousins we’ve been hearing so much about. Welcome to the big city. Try not to overpay the hookers—we’re trying to keep the prices reasonable.
Oh yeah, please feel free to associate yourself with my comments regarding your family.
dead existentialist
Woodrow: Redstate is THAT way>
Woodrow L. Goode, IV
@Loviator (274)
With all due respect, I’ve heard that argument twice before (1968 and 1980). In both cases, the alternative turned out to be bad– but not nearly as bad as what ensued over the long term. And it just continued the downward spiral, where the bargains got worse and worse.
My position is as follows:
1. If Obama wants to take the McConnell deal, he can have a clean debt limit increase, in exchange for taking some heat in the 2012 election. That’s not what he might like, but if he isn’t willing to do the adult thing when it’s hard, he doesn’t deserve to be president. We don’t elect these guys to do what’s easy or doable.
2. If he doesn’t want the heat, then let him invoke the 14th and see whether the Roberts Court is really willing to start a global depression. I tend to think not. Little Tony, Long Dong Silver and Samuel Scalito are nutty, but I don’t think they’re prepared to have their millions wiped out in the crash and live in an SUV with shotguns and beef jerky..
There’s no reason on earth that progressives need to permit Obama pull two solutions off the table and then accept a “Take it up the butt or else” deal. Politics is sometimes a contact sport, and this is how you resolve these things in your favor. If you’re not prepared to draw the line somewhere, you’ll just keep getting pushed back.
I shudder to think what a president who governed like Barack Obama would have done during the period when the Marshall Plan became necessary. Or McCarthyism. Or Nuclear Disarmament. Or Vietnam. Or the Cold War. Or, for that matter, Civil Rights.
This sounds flip, but it isn’t: Based on how he governs, at what point would Barack Obama– who’s keeping people who were arrested on no evidence and not guilty of anything in Gitmo because he’s afraid of what they might do if they were let out– have decided it was safe to let the Japanese in our interment camps out?
People say “It was different because the Republicans of the era were different”, but there was what seemed like a hell of a lot of pressure at the time and procedural rules and guys who are always looking to split the difference always manage to feel the pressure– no matter how much or how little there is– before the guys who go into the history books. Did it really take more courage to obey the Geneva Convention during the Cold War– to not torture people to find out what weapons the Russians and Chinese had?
Barack Obama’s style of government was very popular during the decades before the Civil War– let’s try to find some compromise that both sides can live with. Didn’t succeed; arguably made things worse.
This might be the one occasion in history where this style of governing is the right decision. Given that it’s been tried so many times and always found wanting, I tend to think not.
Loviatar
@ 280 – Woodrow L. Goode, IV
If I’m reading your post correctly, I think we are in general agreement. You’re saying Obama has two options available to him which does not include negotiating away social benefits:
Also to your point, if he was as much of a leader as the Obots make him out to be, he would take either of these as preferable to negotiating with the Republicans on dismantling the social safety net.
I’ve got to tell you, he started to lose me when he wouldn’t go to the mat for Universal Healthcare and he really lost me when he extended the Bush Tax Cuts. Both were issues he had the American people behind him on, both were issues that could have easily been framed in a populist way to show the insanity of the Republican party. In each case he chose the compromise that ended up hurting Americans while benefiting Republicans and their constituencies.
For some reason the Obots can’t or won’t see that, they’ve invested so much into this image of him that they can’t comprehend that he may be wrong. They sound alot like the Republicans did about Bush circa ’01, ’02 and ’03.
Loviatar
@ 280 – Woodrow L. Goode, IV
Also, the ironic thing is, we can hope that we’re wrong about Obama. If we’re wrong and the Obots are right then every thing works out. However If we’re right and they’re wrong about Obama, think how much worse has he made the country and the Democratic party.
We have to challenge him from the left and change his view of the Democratic party as this great moderate being. If we don’t and he continues to govern from the center right and the Republicans govern from the far right then America is in trouble.
John S.
Aww, the firebagger echo chamber is in love with the sound of its own voice. How adorable. It’s so nice to see two people find each other.
cleek
that’s pretty much irrelevant. the support he really needed for such a thing had to come from the Senate. and it wasn’t there.
which would be awesome, if “framing” could break a Senate filibuster. it can’t.
there are 535 other people involved in the legislative processes. but firebaggers always pretend the president can just legislate unilaterally.
i wonder why that is?
General Stuck
Wow, we got some halfway literate fire bagging troll tag teams. Puts to shame the incoherent babbling of a fuckhead or corner stone. Goode and Lipitor must be on the same pheromone frequency, what with all the mutual reaching around, and pillow talk.
Can today’s comment section out ratfuck yesterdays. Doubt it, but would not bet money.
niknik
At what point do Lovitard and Woodrow start humping? The fingering has clearly already begun and is sickening.
Sockpuppets. Igitt.
Chris
Way way late to this, but what the hell.
Well, if your college was anything like mine, then I’m pleased to let you know that you’re wrong. There was a demographic of coked-out hippies who were “semi-political, but mostly, just smoke a lot of weed,” and fit your stereotype to a tee. There’s also a demographic of people who actually give a shit. The people doing the Darfur type stuff were the latter, and plenty of them went on to take low-income, unrewarding careers in things like Teach for America, or its international equivalents, or even missionary work (you’d be surprised how many Christian types, sometimes very conservative, give a damn about these things). This even though many of them had enough brains that they could easily get a gig on Wall Street or in the GOP and dedicate their lives to fucking over people like your family.
liberal
@126 Corner Stone wrote,
(sigh) Sad, but true.
That this isn’t obvious to the rest of those here is a testament to the blinding faith of O-bot-ism.
Marc
Just curious, “liberal”: do you think that calling people “O-bots” does anything but make them want to ignore you?
Chris
Yeah, I hear this again and again in whatsamatterwithkansas arguments. Somehow, around the 1960s, Middle America took offense to the fact that some liberals might be looking down their nose at them, and have spent the last forty years punishing the Democratic Party for it, but if only we’d be a little more humble, then everything would fall into place…
And you’ll forgive me if I’m a skeptic. Elitist assholes like that have been around since the time of Karl Marx. They don’t control the Democratic Party now any more than they did in the 1930s and 1940s when the sticks turned out the vote for FDR and Truman, and I’m tired of hearing that somehow the entire other half of the nation’s supposed to have become radioactive because of a few assholes on Berkeley campus. There’s a little more to it than that.
chopper
@172:
a stich? corner stone is usually about as funny as a retarded kid trying to tie his shoes on his way to his mother’s funeral.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Marc:
You may be on to something here. They call themselves Obots and give each other high fives and I generally ignore them.
Ronbo
I love FDL – the truth matters.
Rome Again
@MikeJ:
They were Democrats in Name Only – otherwise known as Republicans today (see the long and varied history of party switching if you don’t understand this comment).
OzoneR
This is stupider than Lovitar’s argument that Reagan was a fan of the gays. We didn’t give the Shah asylum, Egypt did. Then Morocco and Mexico. The siege on the embassy was planned more than a month before the Shah even came to the US. He was here less than two months.