Imagine this: Let’s say it’s 1948, Strom Thurmond is about to lead the Dixiecrat ticket, and rumors are flying about a certain young lady who he might have fathered. This young lady is a “negro”, as Strom would say in polite company, because her mother is. Would it be bad for other people of color, and their supporters, to entertain the possibility that Strom may have fathered a child with a black woman? Would it be OK for a black columnist, or a white comedian, to archly point out that Strom himself might be a perpetrator of miscegenation? Or would it set back the cause of civil rights, even though there’s nothing whatsoever wrong with a black woman and white man having a sexual relationship, or even getting married, despite the fact that it was illegal throughout the South at the time? Should the commentators of the time have treated Strom with kid gloves?
Fast forward to today, and answer the same question about Marcus Bachmann, gay-hating Christianist pray-away-the-gay “therapist”, who is at the minimum a bigot and perhaps a closet case. Is it OK for Dan Savage and Jon Stewart to wonder if he’s gay, and do so in an sarcastic and mocking tone? Or should we run for our fainting couches as June Thomas and James Joyner recommend?
My guess is that the only people who are seriously offended by those wondering if Marcus is gay are probably people for whom “gay” is a terrible insult, and they’re also the people who oppose gay civil rights. Similarly, in 1948, the people who would be extremely offended by the notion of Strom fathering a black child are those who opposed civil rights for African Americans. Well-intended non-bigots like Joyner and Thomas, who are not offended by the notion of homosexuality, shouldn’t feel the need to carry water for someone who’s devoted his life to ruining the lives of vulnerable teenagers and denying civil rights to fellow citizens. Marcus Bachmann doesn’t deserve it.
Also, too: I’m looking forward to Dan Savage’s response on this — here’s a taste.
cynickal
It’s not the gay, it’s the hypocricy.
None of the people you’re calling out care if he’s gay or not. They care that he’s hurting people by either spouting homophobic talking points or causing psycological damage with his so-called cure, or both.
If he *is* gay it knocks him from the “stupid” catagory to “evil.”
Jeebus, do I have to Godwin the thread already to make a point obvious?
Alex
I think this analysis only really succeeds if one assumes that being involved in anti-gay “reparative” therapy necessarily renders one a closeted homosexual — or at least makes a prima facie case that one is. I’m not sure it does. I just think a lot of these people are tremendously misguided and/or labor under the restrictive delusions of their religious faith. It is one matter to speculate over the homosexuality of Larry Craig after his bathroom incident. But to do so against an individual merely because of his profession, speech inflection, and general demeanor? Mr. Bachmann is undoubtedly doing a lot of damage and should be vigorously criticized as such. Speculating about his sexuality in such a way seems to be unwarranted from what we know.
beltane
Marcus Bachmann would be a tragic figure if he confined his self-hating to himself. Once he undertook to deliberately harm others-for profit-the gloves come off.
It’s all so obvious. Even the lowest of low information voters will look at the Bachmanns and privately snicker at the fraud that underlies their marriage. This would be unfair but for the fact that it is the Bachmanns themselves who have based their careers over passing judgment on the marriages of others.
TooManyJens
I hate that people assume that they can tell Marcus Bachmann is gay because of his clothes or mannerisms. (I can’t help but feel that some kid out there who just got beaten up for “looking gay” is thinking, “Y’all are kind of dicks.”) I also think that there are a lot of people who seem to want him to be gay so that they can pile on. None of that seems quite analogous to the situation with Strom Thurmond’s daughter.
Either way, I’d say that there’s a way to criticize the hypocrisy of Thurmond or (theoretically) Bachmann without coming across as though one is saying that it’s inherently bad to be gay or to have an interracial relationship, but most people just plain aren’t that careful. Especially white/straight people.
drkrick
Like some of the jokes about Larry Craig and Pastor Wetsuit, there’s a whiff of “at least we can still make these jokes about this guy” in the comments about Bachmann. Kind of like Dave Chapelle hearing a note in the laughs he was getting that made him wonder if he had gotten off track.
I know there’s a code about people using slurs that they are the target of that Dan Savage can point to, but it’s certainly possible to deal with the real issue without going there.
Kane
Rather than dedicating time and energy on trying to cure teh gay away, wouldn’t it be more productive in trying to find a cure for homophobia?
The Dangerman
Don’t care; don’t care if he’s gay, don’t care if he’s straight, don’t care if he’s a little of both. Just don’t care.
With all the problems facing this world, this shouldn’t make anyone’s radar screen, mockingly or otherwise.
mistermix
I didn’t bother citing this in the post, but this is the guy who wrote the theories Marcus relies on in his daily practice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Alan_Rekers
Zifnab
Who the ‘eff cares? The Bachmann family weren’t getting this kind of publicity until Michelle began her Presidential run. Once you announce for President, its open season.
I’m sick of hearing the nattering nancys tell me what is and is not appropriate to make fun of during Presidential campaign season. These campaigns are always deeply personal, involving smears that are cruel in their falsehood and crueler in their truthfulness. Republicans aren’t going to pull any punches. Democrats aren’t going to pull any punches. Maybe the media pundits can take some time off playing concern troll, and actually address the meat of the issues surrounding the allegations.
The question of whether Bachmann’s “Pray the Gay Away” is legitimate psychological therapy or Jesus-cloaked con-artistry isn’t going to get touched, because D.C. pundits are too busy crying big crocodile tears over incivility and superficiality between issuing catty fashion pieces about how this or that candidate is dressed.
mistermix
His wife is running for President and he’s promulgating a discredited theory that is ruining lives daily. He’s on my radar, and for good fucking reason.
Chris
Is there anything at all to actually suggest that he IS gay? I don’t know a thing about him, never watched an interview or anything of the guy, don’t know what he looks like. I’m just asking if there’s anything to suggest it other than complete speculation based on the way he looks, dresses, talks, whatever.
The whole “your husband’s gay” thing to me just reeks of middle-school playground crap where “gay” was an accusation of choice for little to no reason. I fully admit that I’m not in possession of the full facts or even close to it. But since you asked, that’s my knee-jerk reaction.
Linda Featheringill
too many jens #4
Marcus
I think that anybody who makes a career out of “curing” homosexuality has an obsession probably points to some homosexual leanings of his own. Period.
If the guy were a farmer or a plumber or even a used car salesman there wouldn’t be all of this snickering and speculation.
Forget the clothes and the walk and the talk. Concentrate on what the man does.
Edited because I cannot spell short words. :-)
Laertes
People don’t think he’s gay because he’s an anti-gay crusader. People think he’s gay because even people with busted-ass Soviet-era gaydar can see it.
His profession isn’t why people think he’s gay. It’s why people think that it’s fair to comment on his obvious gayness.
The Dangerman
@mistermix:
Key words there: “His wife…”
mistermix
@Dangerman:
I forgot that Michelle Obama got a big old pass when Barack was running for President. Thanks for reminding me.
joXn
This would go a long way towards explaining Michelle Bachmann’s creepy obsession with gay pride parades.
Cermet
What? The girl was as much white as black – in the old days any child that had one black parent (and that black parent is also mixed race in all prob) is considered black. I expected better here.
Linda Featheringill
laertes #13
You said it better than I did.
Martin
++
slag
@The Dangerman: Are you kidding? The gay dude goes on talk radio and calls gay kids “barbarians”, and no one is supposed to openly make fun of him? Seriously? It’s not as if he’s trying to keep his affairs private. He’s made a public spectacle of himself. It’s only fair that we get to spectate.
PurpleGirl
If it had come out earlier about Thurmond fathering a child with a black women I don’t think it would have caused more than a lot winks and sly nods among his (male) supporters. His female supporters would have ignored it the way Southern women publicly ignored their husbands taking slave mistresses and held it against Thurmond privately but be unable to actually state their displeasure. (And as good submissive wives, they’d have continued voting for Thurmond because their husbands told them to.)
Cermet: In the time context, Thurmond’s child was black. Today’s considerations about ethnicity do not pertain to 1948.
The Dangerman
@mistermix:
She didn’t; doesn’t make it right. I try to concern myself over important matters, not justify my concerns by the wrongful actions of others. This entire matter is roughly analogous to the long lost “whitey tape”; until there is a “tape”, give it a rest.
Kane
That’s almost word for word what Steve Doocy is saying about the media attention on the News Corp scandal.
Villago Delenda Est
My suggestion to June Thomas and James Joyner is to get together and find a fire to go die in together.
Comrade Mary
That scenario isn’t close enough. Try one where you and many other people suspect that a “white” man is actually a black man trying to pass. You may or may not add in that this man is a eugenicist, a Klansman, or just someone who laughs at racist jokes.
Were talking about someone who may have very good reasons to try to pass. The question is, are they good enough? What amount of harm to that man’s fellow group members is worth helping him keep his secret?
sixers
I’m sure all those effiminate high schoolers who aren’t gay but can’t help that their voice is high or they suck at sports are laughing hard at this situation. Or they know exactly how it feels to be picked on and this situation depressed them. Pick on Bachmann for being anti-gay, not for not living up to the stereotype a heterosexual male is supposed to be. Its cruel to attack him on that level because other people suffer the same fate.
Spaghetti Lee
I dunno. Case by case it doesn’t amount to much, but it does seem like “I bet he’s secretly gay” gets used against every conservative politician out there, to the point where, at least to my ears, it does start sounding like an insult. If you think that being gay or straight shouldn’t affect your opinion of somebody, that should apply to everybody, especially because with a lot of these guys, there’s so much you could criticize them for instead.
Marcus Bachmann should be condemned for promoting homophobia, no matter if he’s gay or straight. If he was gay, I guess I don’t see how that would make him and his business worse than they already are.
The Dangerman
@slag:
Um, no; attack him for his “barbarian” quote or his practices, but going after him for possibly being closeted is sick.
TooManyJens
@Linda Featheringill:
It certainly makes one wonder, and I sure as hell won’t be surprised if he does turn out to be gay.
At least in the case of Strom Thurmond’s daughter, there were rumors about a real person. You could look into it and judge how closely the rumors seemed to jibe with reality. If there were rumors about a particular man Marcus Bachmann had slept with, then that would be different. But for the most part it’s cracks about how he’s OBVIOUSLY gay because of his shirts or his lisp or whatever, and that just worries me.
Martin
OT:
Someone wake Cole up.
The Dangerman
Don’t know Doocy from Doody; one is a law breaking matter, one is not. I’ll let you choose which one is which.
Pangloss
My partner says Marcus and Chaz Bono were separated at birth.
There’s low info, and there’s deliberately self-deluding.
Laertes
If you’d done those things, you wouldn’t be asking the question.
That’s a fair reaction, and it speaks of a fair mind. NOw that you point it out, it makes me a little bit queasy too.
That said, dude is downright flaming, and it’s not like it’s some boilerplate attack to say that the husbands of successful politicians are gay. You can probably think of a cruel remark or two that you’ve read about Todd Palin, none of which suggested that he’s gay.
The fact that he’s also a notorious pray-away-the-gay crusader fits him very neatly into an already overcrowded genre.
slag
@sixers: You do realize that being gay is not a bad thing, right? So, calling someone gay is not, in itself, an insult. That people like the Bachmanns have turned it into an insult is the problem here. Not the gayness.
demz taters
That’s true. Isn’t it now, as they say, “out there”?
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
Why can’t people get that it’s the hypocracy, not his status, that makes this an issue. I’ve met people who went through reparative shock-therapy to cure them, I’ve talked to families torn apart by failed reparative therapy promises.
It’s his evilness that’s the issue, if he is – and the bonus fact that he’s using government funds to do it while married to a drown-the-government conservative presidential candidate. There’s a history of strongly anti-gay folks like this to be cause to ask the question.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
But your comparison, while good is flawed. The full equivalent would be suggestions that Thurmond was black.
At any rate, it concerns me that people tend to leap to the conclusion that str8 male homophobe really = gay male closet case.
It makes it easy to either sympathize with someone who doesn’t deserve it (Aww, he’s just confused) or ignore it in the same way some people ignore violence within African-American neighborhoods (Who cares what those people do to each other?)
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go make popcorn for the pending Marcus Bachmann/Rent Boy scandal.
bobbo
Alyssa Rosenberg and Adam Serwer have also joined the concern troll parade.
Tonybrown74
Well, I am so glad that this shit ain’t important … to YOU.
To those of us who concern ourselves with “therapy” that is destructive to youth who may not know their sexuality or know but have parents who don’t approve, we have a different opinion.
I never understand the need for random assholes to go out of their way to, not only tell us that they don’t care about a particular topic that is being discussed, but that said topic is somehow less significant to all the other malaise in the world.
I mean, seriously! Who the fuck made you flying spaghetti monster?
slag
@The Dangerman: The man’s a cartoon. No one is “going after him”. He’s already gone after himself. The story probably started out as a tragedy, but it’s gone full-on farce now. It’s not our fault that we’re only just now catching it in the middle.
Southern Beale
BREAKING: MSNBC chiron reports that WSJ publisher Les Hinton is quitting.
The Dangerman
@Tonybrown74:
Now, go back and read my contributions to this thread; did I ever say you shouldn’t attack him for his therapy? Nope, don’t think I did. Attacking him for his possible sexuality? Out of bounds, in my opinion. Don’t care.
Laertes
I don’t know who Alyssa Rosenberg and Adam Serwer are, but I’m ready to be persuaded that I should care about their opinions if anyone’s interested in trying.
Right now, though, I’m thinking I’m going to take my cues from Dan Savage on this one. He’s given a lot more thought to these issues than I have, he’s got more skin in the game than I’ve got, and he’s got a record that demonstrates thoughtful concern for young people, GLBT and otherwise.
chopper
one of the problems facing this world is this dude’s wife getting the keys to the WH. not very likely, to be sure, but still.
Tonybrown74
Here’s the thing. One of the things that Reparative Therapy specifically focuses on is behaviors and mannerisms that dear “Doctor” Bachmann exhibits.
I think it’s more than fair game to point this out.
Tonybrown74
My point still stands.
You don’t care.
So the fuck what?
And why do we need to know that you don’t care?
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
@Dangerman: That’s like saying that someone who passes Anti-Abortion laws, while they themselves had recieved abortion services in the past, doesn’t matter.
BobS
I think people would have politely ignored Mr. Bachmann’s just-this-side-of blatantly flaming affect if he (and his wife) hadn’t been even more blatantly hypocritical, which includes accepting public money for the snake-handling caliber therapy he inflicts on young people. As it is, fuck ’em- Marcus Bachmann should have listened to the advice of another Minnesotan, “…to live outside the law you must be honest..”.
Southern Beale
Yes, it’s official, Les Hinton out at the Wall Street Journal.
Cermet
You are all missing the main point and real issue here – this man makes money treating people and part of his program is to treat gay people who reject being gay (or so they say). For any health care person o do that to another person is sick and perverted. If people come to him, say they are gay and want to change, he needs to help them deal with their problem of rejecting being who they really are and help them deal with being gay and rejecting it – helpthem undersad why they feel this way and help thee dal with that issue and not try and twist them into mentally ill people who hate themselves for a natural condition that can not be change and causes greater harm.
My take.
Elizabelle
@ Southern Beale: saw that.
Chips are falling. Roger Ailes next, please.
I hope we can open the Telecom Act of 1996 again and reduce the influence of major media owners.
Clearly, the corporate Villages and Murdoch liars aren’t doing anything to keep our democracy functioning as it was intended.
Kane
From Dan Savage:
“You know, people had gaydar back in the bad old days—back before gay people started coming out and living openly—but Marcus Bachmann would’ve gotten a pass. He would’ve gotten multiple passes: a pass for the way he looks, for the way he speaks, the way walks, the way he dances. Being a homosexual used to be considered so vile, disgusting, and immoral—so criminal—that a man like Marcus Bachmann had to be given the benefit of every doubt. Being gay was literally the worst thing you could think about a person. So straight people went out of their way to avoid thinking it. Even when evidence of a man’s gayness was on conspicuous display, straight people would refuse to see it. Which explains why millions of blue-haired old ladies went to their graves convinced that Liberace was straight.
Times have changed.
Straight people haven’t just gotten used to gay people—to openly gay people—they’ve come to the realization that they prefer openly gay people to lying closet cases. They would rather have a beer with an honest Cam than a glass of champagne with a lying Liberace. And that’s why Marcus Bachmann is being ridiculed: it’s not because he’s perceived to gay—it’s not because he pings on everyone’s gaydar save Michele’s—it’s because he’s perceived to be dishonest. He appears to be a lying closet case, a lying closet case who’s made convincing other gay people to join him in the closet his life’s work. And straight people don’t like being lied to.
Not anymore.”
Pangloss
Not old enough to remember, but did Roy Cohn ever have any concern trolls on his side?
PhoenixRising
At any rate, it concerns me that people tend to leap to the conclusion that str8 male homophobe really = gay male closet case.
Yeah, well, it delights me. It’s a good thing, despite the potential downsides you mention.
Due to the prevalence of homophobia among self-IDed straight men–and the odds of any anti-gay hate crime being perpetrated by a young man in that category–there is a huge social benefit to linking outspoken and persistent anti-gay bigotry to repressed homosexual leanings.
When it is widely-accepted conventional wisdom that anyone upset by (or concerned with repairing) the sexual expression or identity of gay men is most likely gay himself, that will be a good thing.
Martin
Well, that depends. We’ve all seen plenty of cases where calling someone gay was specifically an insult. Calling someone gay is not an insult if they see themselves as gay, and if it is not intended as an insult. But let’s say that he is actually gay (and I’m not about to assume that he is, not my call) but doesn’t see himself as gay – outing him as gay is every bit as bad as merely insulting him, and since it seems quite apparent that you want to call him gay, when he clearly does not see himself as gay suggests that you do intend to hurt him with the statement.
Hypothetically, let’s say he’s just boring ol’ bi- and goes either way, and has chosen a committed relationship with Michele. What does his attaching the label ‘gay’ to him gain him, other than possibly harming his relationship? And what right do you have to attach it to him? He’s not hurting her. He’s not deceiving her. He’s got the relationship he wants as does she. What’s not to support here? And the notion of identity is important in this realm, isn’t it? The transgender spectrum is a pretty broad one and not one where applying outside labels does anyone any good at all. Let Marcus label himself however he wants.
Now, the whole pray-the-gay-away thing is an entirely other ball of wax, but we can go after that with both barrels without having to drag anyone’s sexual identity into it.
Southern Beale
At any rate, it concerns me that people tend to leap to the conclusion that str8 male homophobe really = gay male closet case.
But have you SEEN this guy? He set my gaydar off and not because of the str8 male homophobe nonsense. He’s positively in flames!
Please. My gaydar is NEVER wrong. Ever. Well, maybe once. I still get major gaydar from Matthew Mcconaughey. I’m the only one, I guess.
No Marcus Bachmann sets my gaydar off BIG time. I’m telling you, he’s Liberace without the rhinestones.
Mike E
Well, I suppose only Mel Brooks could possibly direct Blazing Saddles, but not without Richard Pryor writing it. Maybe this subject matter could be handled by a better suited duo also, too. But without the obvious queer jokes. Or something. Oh boy…
El Cid
Imagine it’s 1948, and Strom Thurmond…
Wait, let’s not imagine. From the TIME magzabine archives:
Or how about from the society pages? Though in this case, it’s 1947.
The Dangerman
@Tonybrown74:
Right; I don’t care. You obviously do. Fine. I think I can defend not caring about someone’s sexuality; if you can defend caring about his sexuality as opposed to simply flaming me, have at it.
Exactly; in the big picture, my opinion about caring about his sexuality or your opinion disagreeing with me doesn’t much matter and really shouldn’t be on anyone’s radar screen.
Now, that ties it up nicely, doesn’t it? Wake me when he comes out, then I might (or might not) care.
MTiffany
Holy crap, Marcus Bachmann is a real-life Uncle Ruckus.
cmorenc
@slag:
As tolerant and accepting as society is becoming wrt gay folk, there’s still a huge difference to most hetro folks between tolerantly accepting that one or more among their circle of friends or family is gay, and gladly tolerating being personally accused of being gay themselves. I’d strongly suggest you not take your notion that “calling someone gay is not, in itself, an insult” too far out of the appropriate context, which is accepting that someone else is in fact gay is ok, but not that assuming it makes little difference to folks which camp (hetro vs homosexual) they’re viewed as part of to others.
beltane
Remember back in 2008 when all the concern trolls told us not to look into Sarah Palin’s record and her Todd’s affiliation with an anti-American separatist movement? Remember they told us to leave her alone and stop mocking her because it would make people more sympathetic to her?
Those people were idiots, and I am glad they were not listened to. Civility has its uses, but acting as a fig leaf to cover up the evil of this world is not one of them.
scav
Oh, leave the husband of the barbarian-kissing candidate to stew in his own melted lard. OT break: The US has finally caught up and got our own NI resignation. Les Hinton is out. Resume bickering.
RossInDetroit
OT, but I need an intervention to keep me from reading Bobo. I keep expecting him to have something useful to say because he did once recently.
What an ass. Why does this man enjoy an exalted platform in the Newspaper of Record? He’s just an idiot.
Many things. Like wars, tax cuts, unfunded programs and failure to control the COSTS of health care.
It’s not about over use, you boob.
El Cid
You have to love, though, the deep-seated and properly elitist condescension by the Time writers for these neo-Confederati, particularly one recurring phrase (in many, many articles) regarding reptiles.
Southern Beale
@beltane:
Actually, no. I don’t. Who said that?
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
I’d be more inclined to agree if this weren’t the umpteenth time someone has pointed to a virulent homophobe and said he’s gay.
Even if M.B. DOES make the ol GDar go Shreeeeeeeeee! the general attitude gets up my nose a bit.
(Question: When is the last time someone pointed at a female ‘phobe and said she must be a lesbian? Coulter doesn’t count ‘cos they called her a dude.)
patroclus
Somehow, this story gets me to thinking about the Ambiguously Gay Duo.
Martin
Nobody is suggesting that his pray-away-the-gay practice should be in any way off-limits. Go after the decisions people make, not who they are.
Jesus, didn’t we spend a year going through this with everyone on the right making an extra point to note Obama’s middle name, and the fact that he was black? Or IOKIYAD?
Mark
Best comment on June Thomas’ piece:
“Defending any part of the Batsh*t Bachmann Empire of Doom is hysterical. If hitcount was the goal, SCORE! Keep it up!”
TooManyJens
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen:
Yeah, and the way they do that always strikes me as transphobic, too.
slag
@Martin:
If Bachmann considers gay to be an insult, I have no interest in sparing his feelings on the matter. However, your assertion that I intend to “hurt him” is absurd. I only intend to get entertainment from him and whatever he calls his special lady friend. Regardless of his feelings.
Because, as stated, he is a cartoon. The time to empathize with him was before he became a cartoon. That time has clearly passed. Not saying he’s irredeemable. Am saying he is currently a fabulously ridiculous character, and consequently, am not remotely concerned about any of the ridicule he gets. Including the assertion that he only buys Brawny paper towels for the packaging.
Pat
I dunno, Dan Savage looks and talks like a straight dude to me…the gay thing is probably just a front to get him free lattes in the nicer Capitol Hill cafes…
El Cid
I am not fucking making this up. This from Time‘s extended profile of Thurmond as the Dixiecrats’ campaign really does begin to threaten the Truman candidacy.
Also, by boning negresses. Virile. Fecund, even.
Martin
He has a point though. If we simply killed everyone over 65, the entitlement problem would be solved nice and neat.
(I can’t believe that guy is only 7 years older than I am. Is permanent brain-rattle really coming that soon?)
adolphus
I admit I do have problems with this. People seem to think just because this man, loathsome to be sure, is effeminate that it is okay to openly mock him as a closeted homosexual male. To alter mistermixes analogy a bit, it would be like noticing that Strom Thurmond, or his offspring, likes watermelon or tap dancing so lets speculate on whether they’re black.
In both instances it’s pandering to a stereotype. Not all flamers are gay and not all gays flame.
I hate defending this douche, for all the reasons people have stated here. He or his wife should explain loud and proud all about his pray-the-gay away business. If they believe in it, say so. Let the people vote. I suspect it will hurt them.
As far as anti-gay, right wing evangelicals turning out to be gay, there have been far too many real cases at this point to not make jokes on that basis alone. The next Governor of Illinois will have to put up with “have a reservation in jail yet?” jokes for the same reason.
Also, just because he is the spouse and the candidate would normally cause me to shy away too. Except that this particular candidate has said publicly that she believes in the bible’s command for wives to be subordinate to their husbands. In fact she has said that this is why she went into tax law and initially ran for office. Not because she wanted to, but because he commanded her to. As far as I am concerned this legitimately calls into question their relationship and how he figures into her decisions in office and who he is and what his character is.
I am all for leaving family out of it, but the candidates have to lead that dance.
Southern Beale
You know what I think of discussions like this “is it an insult to call someone gay” one?
An attempt to shut down criticism of right wing hypocrisy. I know that wasn’t mistermix’s intention, but that is what happens when the right does it. They are trying to use political correctness against the left.
Personally I have no issue with political correctness, to me it’s just a pejorative way of referring to good manners. But for crying out loud, there’s HYPOCRISY and CONTEXT. Pretending these things don’t exist just paralyzes everyone and they decide, “well, maybe I’d better not write about that hypocrite in the closet because then I’ll be accused of being intolerant.”
I really hate it that it’s come to this. Marcus Bachmann peddles in a brutally oppressive and abusive form of “therapy” that is against human rights. He called gays barbarians. He’s denying it now but the audio doesn’t lie. If some folks are saying he doth protest too much, well more power to them.
I’m outta here.
Martin
Well, so much for it not being an insult then. Way to make your case.
slag
@cmorenc: Well, given that you took my statement out of its context, I’ll give your argument the consideration it deserves.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
Just saw this:
OK, I never thought of it that way. Never mind my previous grumping
Next step: Get them fighting amongst themselves, ‘cos watching a bunch of homophobes beating on each other for exhibiting homophobia would be HEElarious.
beltane
@Southern Beale
I can’t count them all. If you want to check out GOS diaries from the fall of 2008, you’ll be able to find an abundance of concern trolls cautioning us to focus on John McCain and not Sarah Palin. Oh, and mocking her for her inability to speak any known language was sexist or something. Until the Couric interview, Palin was treated with kid gloves by everyone but rude lefty bloggers and Andrew Sullivan.
chopper
@Kane:
leave it to savage to boil it down to a perfect point.
JC
Well, it IS possible, though unlikely, that Marcus Bachmann is a flaming heterosexual. Affect and sexuality are USUALLY contingent, but not always. If McKinsey showed us anything, is that there is a LOT of variety in the sexual experiences of human beings, much more than we know.
I’d say it is believable that 1-5% of heterosexuals have ‘gay affect’, but aren’t gay.
But not to NOTICE that he is flaming, WITH the face that he tries to ‘pray the gay away’, a very destructive practice to young kids?
That is asking too much.
Joel
For the record, I agree with this.
slag
@Martin: Are you really being this dense? This guy is Stuart Smalley trying to transmogrify the gay away. If everyone went around laughing at the Bachmanns for no other reason than their obvious beardage, that’d be cause for concern. But these people are out there trying to teach people to hate gayness. The juxtaposition is absolutely where the humour is. Without the juxtaposition, you just have meanness. And meanness isn’t funny.
PurpleGirl
RossInDetroit: I read the column in conjunction with reading another blog. I normally don’t read Bobo because he has no clue about life and actual people. If you want the flavor of this column, just read the comments. A number of people told him to read Krugman’s column…
drkrick
I don’t hear anybody demanding that discussion of the repugnance of pray-the-gay-away therapy be shut down. Or discussion of the possibility that there was diagnostic fraud to bill it to plans that don’t cover it, for that matter.
But I don’t understand how that argument is made any more effective by rolling out the old fag-shaming “humor” one more time. An awful lot of Jon Stewart’s routine the other night looked like a revival of Johnny Carson’s stuff about Liberace 20 or 30 years ago. Would Bachmann’s “psychiatric” practice be any less shameful if he turned out to be straight? I didn’t think so.
Chris
Probably the best definition I’ve read of it yet.
Martin
I’m not judging you, man, or calling anyone here intolerant. You said it wasn’t an insult, and I’m saying it is, one that generates humor. I agree it’s humorous, but that doesn’t mean it’s not an insult. It’s is. Unquestionably. Further, I’m hardly above insulting people for my own entertainment.
I still don’t care if he’s gay or not nor do I think it’s any of our business. And I think if anyone wants to seriously tackle his ‘therapy’ practice, or call out the hypocrisy of doing it on government dollars, dropping the ‘gay’ line is critical to getting anywhere – because once you go there, you’ll find yourself on defense for calling someone’s identity out and it’ll just distract from the thing that’s really important.
Joel
@drkrick
Nope, but:
aimai
Pointing out that an extremely conservative female politician and her husband are living a closeted life is not about pointing out “hypocrisy” any more than pointing out that a famous anti abortion politician has had an abortion, or paid for one. In these cases both Bachmann and many anti abortion politicians are advocating the criminalization of people and practices which they are practicing or have practiced. If Michelle thinks that gay people shouldn’t have the same rights as straight people she should have to account for her belief that her husband is entitled to equal rights. If she knows he’s gay but believes he’s “repaired” she should have to come clean about that. And, frankly, if she doesn’t know and he does? He’s pretty guilty of deceiving both her and his clients.
aimai
Tonybrown74
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
Well, I can only speak for myself, and that is something I don’t do, except in very special cases:
1) cases where you have these NARTH/Reparative Therapy people who exhibit mannerisms that would have had them sent to these therapy camps as children.
and
2) The guys who are so hellbent on exposing how “deviant” the homosexual “lifestyle” that they will “infiltrate” gay events like the Folsom Fair and Mr. Gay Leather, in full gear no less.
That said, the fact that recent history has shown a pattern of virulent anti-gay politicians and “activists” having homosexual inclinations has got a lot of people noticing a bit of a pattern that is not easy to ignore.
As for Ann Coulter, as much as I despise her, I never got on the bandwagon of comparing her to a transgendered woman. As TooManyJens says, it has always struck me as transphobic. What she reminds me of is the silly stereotype conservatives tried to push of the hot, sexy conservative woman, except that she can’t pull it off, and looks silly (and desperate).
slag
@Martin:
Jesus Christ. I said:
No. Calling someone gay is not, in itself, an insult. Just like calling someone straight is not, in itself, an insult. When you call your same-sex-attracted friends “gay” do they consider it an insult? Really? Do they?
Violet
Marcus Bachmann seems like a creep. Haven’t they fostered a whole bunch of children? Those poor kids. And if any of the kids they fostered were gay, how especially awful for those kids.
Martin
Before they’re out? Absolutely. That’s not my job.
Shawn in ShowMe
I believe this to be true, but I’m having a hard time thinking of a flamer, celebrity or otherwise, who wasn’t gay. Paul Lynde?
TooManyJens
@Shawn in ShowMe: A friend of mine in college was a total flamer and had no sexual interest in men whatsoever. ::shrug:: It happens.
different church-lady
a) Okay. Now let’s suppose they did all that supposing in 1948 and it turns out Strom didn’t father any children out of wedlock. How’s that work out for everyone in the end?
b) I’ll also suggest that the accusation is not one of being gay, but being closeted. You all can work out the sundrie angles on whether it amounts to “outing” and such yourself.
c) Having not followed this subject all that closely, is there any genuine evidence — even circumstantial — to suggest Bachmann’s husband actually is gay? Or is this idea memeing simply because it’s fun to say? (And yeah, it’s fun to say, but only for about 4 seconds.)
Basically we’re talking about the sleaze that dare not speak its name. You wanna go for it, go for it. I’m going to take a pass.
Brad
Even Andrew Breitbart knew that if he really wanted to nail Weiner he’d actually have to come up with those beefcake photos. Maybe Dan Savage can get a snickering buzz going in the blogosphere, but I don’t see this going much beyond that unless someone can dig up something more convincing than “sure looks like one to me.”
slag
@Martin:
So, then, it depends on context. And you agree that calling someone gay is not, in itself, an insult? That being gay is not a bad thing? You agree with that statement? And, finally, do you agree that people like the Bachmanns turning gay into an insult is a bad thing? Because I want to get your concern with each of these statements straight (pun intended).
drkrick
I’m going to assume she believes he has not had any same-sex sexual activity since they’ve been married. For her and most of their cohort, that would be enough to qualify him (or restore him) to eligibility for full rights. Which is way screwed up, but if we’re going to call out people on hypocrisy we should probably be clear about what they believe.
See, they have no problem with gay people as such. As long as they’re willing to live in life-long self-loathing and denial of their most basic human instincts, it’s all good. And support for that brand of craziness goes way beyond the 27%ers.
Martin
See, but that’s none of our business, and if they deny it, how do you prove they’re lying?
That’s the problem with this line of attack – it’s like accusing someone of being a pedophile because they look like one, even if they’re an anti-pedophile crusader. Unless you have evidence, where do you expect to go with it? You can’t go anywhere. Best case it ends in a giant heap of innuendo unless you get some kind of Perry Mason confession out of it.
And none of those things actually make what he’s doing any better or worse unless you want to tie the notion of ‘pray-the-gay-away’ being wrong only if the ‘therapist’ is gay. That’s not the case at all, so why complicate it with that angle? Why not just leave all of that out and say “It doesn’t matter if he’s gay, straight, reformed-gay, reformed-straight, or gay-straight, the attitudes promoted here are wrong, and the so-called therapy is frankly dangerous.’
But she’s wrong. She’s wrong no matter whether she’s gay, he’s gay, or anything else is going on in that household. She’s simply, unquestionably wrong – and we should be able to make that case without going after them personally.
Martin
Is Marcus Bachman out?
Don’t try to spin a specific incident out into a hypothetical. We don’t need to say ‘it depends on context’. We’ve got the context. Everyone is clear on the context. You’re calling him gay for your own entertainment because he’s either not out or not gay but he acts gay, and he’d be horrified to have that label attached to him. It’s an insult. Admit it. That’s fine. I’m not judging. I don’t think you’re a bad person (I do think Marcus is a bad person). You insulted Marcus Bachman for yukks. That’s fine. About 99% of what we do around here is insult people for laughs, let’s just not pretend that they aren’t actually insults.
Yes.
Yes.
RossInDetroit
@Purplegirl;
I held my nose and read the whole Bobo column. He says one of the reasons for the deficit is people with fatal diseases expect treatment at the end of their lives. And of course everyone dies so why bother.
This is exactly how a sociopath thinks.
adolphus
@Shawn in ShowMe:
The problem with using celebrities as your sample is that people who live in the public eye (like Paul Lynde, Liberace, etc) and especially those who seek it out work very diligently on their mannerisms and affects. The question isn’t and shouldn’t be about whether there are any celebrities who flame but aren’t gay but whether there are any regular people who exhibit this affect without being gay. Based on my experience, quite a few, and that includes mannish women who aren’t lesbians.
This couple is such a target rich environment for ridicule, mockery, and legitimate revulsion. And the embody so many hypocrisies in one partnership worthy of investigation and exposure, why stoop to what is essentially a Munzian “Ha Ha You’re a sissy.”
zoot
while its true marcus bachmann’s gay hating is deplorable, I don’t see where Jon Stewart mocking him as exuding cliched stereotypical gayness is in anyway funny or acceptable, or is not derogatory of being gay. How is what Stewart did different from mocking someone by associating them with group stereotypes like women not being smart or rational or serious, or blacks being lazy or criminal, or Muslims wanting to kill all non-muslims? None of those stereotypes are true, but they are used all the time as derogatory generalizations.
I think Stewart screwed up big-time on this one.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
Never mind celebrities. Lots of men from the deep south. Unless you want to posit a lot of poor SOBs in MOCs. (I know, always possible …) Of course the accent – especially the upper class one – doesn’t help.
One of the many reasons I don’t go down there any more. I get so confused.
Fire ants. Also.
slag
@Martin: Read sixers comment (you know, the “context” of the point I was making). The implication there is that we shouldn’t make fun of this guy because other guys get called gay for many of the same reasons. And I’m saying that, if those guys don’t consider gay to be an insult, then they won’t be bothered by being called gay.
That Marcus Bachmann considers it an insult is not my concern. I don’t care if he does. I thought I’d made that clear. I don’t feel the need to “admit it”. What I can’t understand is why this is rocket science to so many people. Dude, if you’re gay and people call you gay, it’s not an insult, unless you take it as such. Dude, if you’re not gay and people call you gay, it’s still not an insult, unless you take it as such. Why you’re taking being called gay as an insult is something that might be worth looking into. Either you’re making assumptions about gay people yourself or you’re making assumptions about other people’s views of gay people.
No matter which, I’ll say it again–loud and heterosexually proud–calling someone gay is not, in itself, an insult. End. of. story.
Barney
Hell, I’ll Godwin this:
This is like people saying, every time Hitler is mentioned, “you do know he was really Jewish, don’t you? He was a self-hating Jew who tried to compensate by killing all the Jews he could. After all, look at his hair – jet black. Does he look Nordic to you? I don’t think so.”
How often would public figures have to say that before someone pointed out that putting antisemitic people into the category “self-hating Jew” without actual evidence ends up being antisemitic itself? People have occasionally put forward a theory that Hitler suspected Jewish ancestry, but, since there’s no decent evidence for it, they don’t constantly mention it.
If you start classifying every homophobe who isn’t butch enough for your taste (and ignoring the many homosexual men who are quite, or very, masculine – because that screws up your fun) as gay, then you also start painting homosexuality as something with a tendency to a psychological disorder of self-hatred. And you also give the homophobes an excuse – “it’s not because they are nasty people, they’ve just been mixed up by society making them hate themselves”.
How about we wait until a man says he has had sex with him before we start calling him gay?
jim filyaw
would that someone had the balls in 1939 to point out that josef goebbels, that purveyor of aryan superiority, was in reality a club footed dwarf.
Joel
back-to-back Godwin for the win!!
Mike in NC
Back in the day it was considered a perk for the man of the house to ‘have his way’ with the hired help, now and again.
Just think: if he were still alive, the teabaggers in SC would call Ole Strom a RINO.
different church-lady
Now that I think about it, I’m gonna clear all this up in one shot:
Is it okay for people to speculate that Obama is a secret Muslim? We all agree there’s nothing wrong with being a Muslim, right? So, how could anyone have a problem with speculation about it? Or, for that matter, mocking humor about it?
slag
@different church-lady: Why would anyone speculate that Obama is a secret Muslim?
gocart mozart
Try again. Paul Lynde was gay.
different church-lady
@ slag: you’re gonna have to ask the wingnut guild. To them it makes perfect sense.
scarshapedstar
That’s all circumstantial. Like any right-wing Christian closet case, he’s outed himself with endless, exquisitely detailed sermons about gay sex fantasies, and how all men are tempted by them, constantly, and how the only difference between him and those out-and-proud barbarians (the sinful nature!) is that he’s disciplined himself into silence.
Is that not enough for you? How openly self-loathing does someone have to be before they can be considered closeted?
slag
@different church-lady: And that’s the weird thing. If anything, I woulda put GW’s crew under suspicion, given their tendencies toward extreme anti-Muslim jihad. Obama’s out there giving dinners for them, hiring them into government jobs, etc. If he were a self-loather, would he be doing those things? Doubtful.
Although…come to think of it…he did kill that bearded guy…
gocart mozart
HyperIon
El Cid @74 wrote:
IIRC the thing with the black woman took place when he was very young. It was not contemporaneous with the whole Dixiecrat BS. Which you seem to be implying.
And thanks, Barney @110, for making a good point.
different church-lady
@gocart mozart: Is it okay or isn’t it?
Because if it isn’t, then two pillars of mistermix’s argument crumble, even if the other one (the hypocrisy) stands.
gocart mozart
I suppose we shouldn’t assume that Richard Simmons is gay either.
scarshapedstar
No, it’s really not the same for two reasons.
1) The people claiming Obama is a Muslim hate Muslims.
2) Obama has never said that Muslims are evil and must be converted to Christianity.
different church-lady
@124: I would suggest the proper course of action would be not not call Richard Simmons to mind for any reason.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
At least we’re all agreed on one thing:
Regardless of orientation, both Bachmanns are festering sacks of hate upon whom we would not piss if they were on fire. (No flaming jokes!)
The fact that One L Bachmann is the Belle of the Republicon Ball tells you all you need to know about Das Base.
different church-lady
@ scarshaperdstar: I didn’t say it was the same. I’m saying that a major part of mistermix’s justifications for the “speculation” being appropriate don’t stand.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
SHE was very young (16). He was 21 or 22.
Still, your point stands.
gocart mozart
If there were some non-crazy evidence that Obama was Muslim, then it would be reasonable to speculate. As it is, the speculation that he was born in Kenya or is Muslim is retarded: Sorry, mentally challenged. If people were accusing Marcus Bachmann of being a secret Muslim or something equally ridiculous, then the comparison would be apt.
gwangung
Really. All this hubub is just trying to decide we hit ’em over the head with a baseball bat or we whack ’em in the gut with the rubber hose.
HyperIon
Slag @101 wrote:
News flash: Most people in the world think being gay IS a bad thing. The Bachmanns didn’t “turn gay into an insult”. It has been and remains an insult (or death sentence, even) in most parts of the world today. Things are slowly changing in some countries.
I doubt this incident will do anything to increase the rate of change. Mostly it seems a chance for some folks to lash out at and make fun of people they do not like. Sort of like in junior high school when the football players would taunt the guy who played the flute in the band.
Joel
@different church-lady
your example would be relevant if Obama made anti-muslim bigotry a part of his professional platform.
look, it would be great if everyone in the world acted like angels and we all strove towards the highest moral ground at all times. but people are human and that’s not changing anytime soon. the snarky takedowns of depraved lunatics like marcus bachmann are part of how people cope with this often fucked up world that we live in.
different church-lady
@ 129: wingnuts think their evidence that Obama is a Muslim is perfectly reasonable — after all, his funny name, spent childhood time in a Muslim country, father born into a Muslim family, etc…
See where this is going? And is this really the kind of game we want to be imitating?
Bruce S
Hoist. Petard.
Stewart was fucking brilliant. And the Seinfeld cameo was genius. “Real America,” motherfuckers!
I’m looking forward to our first gay President. I know my kids will live to see it.
slag
@HyperIon: News flash: No. The Bachmanns didn’t turn gay into an insult. But “people like the Bachmanns” did and still do. And yet, it still takes two to make an insult. You can try to insult me by calling me any one of a number of names you may find objectionable. But it won’t work. You will likely fail. In which case, I am not insulted.
So, if you try to insult me by calling me gay, I will laugh at you. Because you will have outed yourself. You will not have outed me in any way. But if I take offense to your comment and am insulted by it, I will have outed myself. Either as a homophobe or as someone who deigns to care what a homophobe thinks of them. And then I would have an issue on which I should seriously contemplate.
different church-lady
@ Joel (132):
The example stands alone: Marcus Bachmann’s platform is reprehensible whether he’s gay or straight. You can add hypocrisy to the list of charges, but only if it becomes established that he is, in fact, gay, not just because he looks gay to you.
To acknowledge that obvious fact of human behavior is one thing. To make arguments justifying it is another. Just because it’s inevitable, or understandable, doesn’t exonerate it.
I’m not trying to go on a huge soapbox about it, and tut tut humorists. But mixermix brought up some questions and I answered them. If “I’m just asking” is excuse for the goose, then it’s excuse for the gander.
scarshapedstar
If Obama had dedicated himself to the proposition that children indoctrinated in Kenyan madrassas can and must convert to Christianity, and in fact literally made his whole career out of “converting” Muslims, and then said “no, I was never Muslimized in a Kenyan madrassa, I just picked this obsession at random; why do you ask?” you might have a point.
Chet
Martin (#55):
Well, tell that to Dan Savage, who has a documented history of denying that bisexuality actually exists.
different church-lady
@ scarshapedstar: Right: I’m gonna try one more time…
I am not comparing Obama to Marcus Bachmann.
I am comparing PEOPLE SPECULATING about Obama to PEOPLE SPECULATING about Marcus Bachmann.
Here, try this on for size:
By this reasoning none of us should “get the vapors” when someone “wonders” if Obama is Muslim.
Marcus Bachmann is a homophobe. He might also be a hypocrite. But that still doesn’t make mistermix’s proposition make any more sense.
scarshapedstar
And actually, this is an unfair comparison; given Marcus’s mannerisms, it’s more like if Obama said “In’sh’Allah, no, I swear upon the most holy grave of the prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings be upon him) that I am not a Muslim and do not venerate the sacred Quran, nor do I pray five times daily in the direction of Mecca!”
scarshapedstar
Look. We saw Ted Haggard. We saw Eddie Long. We saw them all bash gays while being gay. I remember when Bill Maher said, “How many times does this have to happen before people realize that THEY’RE ALL GAY! EVERY SINGLE ONE!” and I find it difficult to argue with that.
Obsessive, long-winded sermons against Teh Ghey are pretty solid evidence for closeted gayness. There’s no denying it at this point. It happens again and again and again. Do you really disagree?
Furthermore, I don’t think many people got the vapors about birtherism, Muslim-tinged or otherwise. Sorry. The premise for your concern-trolling jujitsu is pretty weak. We mostly thought it was ridiculous and self-defeating, and we were proven right. Hell, even Obama joked about it, remember the standup session with Donald Trump? The more they speculated, the more they were proven wrong, the dumber they looked, and they became the joke.
I don’t think we will rue the day when people started snickering about Marcus Bachmann, though. Which, in my case, was the very first time I heard that audio about “barbarians need discipline”, like a week ago. I’m kinda surprised it took so long for the comedians to catch up.
rikyrah
if he’s in the closet, expose his ass. his hateration, if he had kept it to himself, I’d say leave it alone. But, him and his batshyt crazy ass homophobic wife want to institute policies that would harm gays and lesbians.
fuck both of them.
LanceThruster
My pal Bernie the Attorney often pointed out how people trying to hide some aspect of their own character/behavior would rail against those same traits quite vociferously.
As others have stated; it’s not teh gay, it’s the hypocrisy.
No one of Importance
I find it ironic that an article chastising Dan Savage for supposing Bachmann is gay because of his affect, would ‘defend’ Bachmann’s heterosexuality thus:
The difference between right wingers calling Obama Muslim and this situation is that it’s gay people themselves who’ve identified Bachmann as one of their own. And it’s gay people who’ve nailed, repeatedly, the immense hypocrisy of a man who, if he’s not gay, behaves in a way that in any one else would lead to that person being mercilessly bullied or even murdered, justified by his religion and his wife’s attitudes.
There are so many layers of hypocrisy and irony here. Michele is literally terrified of gay people, and yet doesn’t recognise who she married (or refuses to.) Bachmann believes being gay is an illness to be curied, but doesn’t believe in ‘physician, heal thyself.’ And of course, there’s the whole fraud and dishonesty angle of taking public money hand over fist for a discredited and useless ‘therapy’ while denying essential life-saving treatment to lesser beings (ie anyone poorer than they are.)
I think the attacks on both Bachmanns are justified, and the calling out of Marcus as a closeted gay hypocrite should continue, if only because of who it’s upsetting – people like Tony Perkins and all the other ‘family activists’ who really don’t like being forced to see their rhetoric used against them. Normally I’d have immense pity for a woman married to a secretly gay man, or a gay man who hates himself so much he denies his sexuality to live ‘straight’ – strangely, I can’t dredge up a microgram for this pair.
No one of Importance
Not even with someone else’s dick. Eeuww
different church-lady
Yes. I also remember the entirety of Left-Blogistan being vapor-riddled in the extreme the day he released his long term birth certificate. Gosh, it was all just smiles and giggles and amusing speculation that Trump was now the GOP front-runner. Really, how could anyone take offense at those circumstances. Couldn’t they see the obvious humor in it all?
You wanna go all Orly-cum-Frist on Marcus Bachmann’s ass*, be my guest. I’ll be enjoying the Schadenfreude just as much as anyone. Just don’t construct any idiotic intellectual exercises about it.
(*and if that ain’t a setup for some running jokes, I don’t know what is.)
TG Chicago
“My guess is that the only people who are seriously offended by those wondering if Marcus is gay are probably people for whom “gay” is a terrible insult, and they’re also the people who oppose gay civil rights.”
Odd that you said this right after invoking the name of James Joyner. I complained to him when someone in the comments on his blog referred to Barney Frank as “faggot”. He said he had no problem with that. I reminded him that the commenting rules on his own blog say that you should only use language appropriate for broadcast TV. He still insisted that the word was fine.
So I don’t know if he considers “gay” to be a terrible insult, but he thinks “faggot” is no problem at all.
gocart mozart
Where is this going? It seems to be going for some kind of record for “most concerned concern troll” if you ask me. Should we stop calling racists out because some conservatives say “liberals are the real racist?” Should we stop accusing Republicans of trying to kill Medicare because many of them talked about “death panels?” Its not an “imitation” if its true and I will enthusiastically mock a crazy political and religious extremist and her big gay-hating gay husband without regrets. You shouldn’t be so concerned about that either.
Rihilism
So, you’re familiar with “Dr.” Bachmann’s practice then.
Someone’s sexuality is no one’s business, unless and until that person, from a position of authority, decides to make their distorted views of other people’s sexuality their business (or source of income). I’ve no pity for “Dr.” Bachmann since he decided it was OK to destroy other people’s lives. And while I have no evidence that ‘ole Marcus is closeted (other than the obvious evidence), I think it’s perfectly reasonable to suggest that his actions are motivated by a deep sense of self-hatred…
RalfW
Once she started moving a constitutional marriage ban in Minnesota back in 2006, as far as I’m concerned she and her husband became open to inquiry. If she had stayed the hell out of my relationship, I’d return the favor.
But as long as she and her pals have conferences at megachurches where condemning teh ghey (while “loving” the sinner), fundraising like mad off us, etc, then they get not one tear from me.
different church-lady
Go for it, with my enthusiastic blessing. Just don’t try to do it based on the same kind of cockamamie intellectual exercise this blog entry did. Because that exercise can get flipped over real easily.
“Her big gay-hating husband” is the point. “…who’s also gay, I just know he is!” is beside the point.
Special Patrol Group
In any event, “Center Square Gay” is a keeper.
Alan
Not that it really matters, but June Thomas is a lesbian. (http://www.slate.com/id/2297604/)
I don’t have an opinion one way or another. I think it can definitely be ok to point out hypocrisy. However, I do get uncomfortable when liberals make accusations about conservative people’s sexuality using the defense of hypocrisy when those accusations are based on innuendo, gossip, or stereotypes. It’s a tough call. Yes, anyone who does “conversion therapy” deserves a lot worse than accusations of hypocrisy, but I definitely understand those who want liberals to stay away from “liberally” making claims about someone else’s sexuality.
No one of Importance
Bullshit. The only person who’s seen Marcus and not have their gaydar explode is apparently the moron he’s married to. Now if he was Kevin Kline in “In & Out” being labelled as gay because he’s too fabulous not to be, then maybe you’d have a point. But there’s a point when the bleeding obvious is too bleeding obvious to ignore, and when he spends, to quote a number of commenters on Joe My God, more time obsessing over gay sex than they do….
His being a self-hating gay isn’t the entire point, but it’s part of it. And to my mind, GLBT people are engaged in a vicious war with dishonest, vindicative people who are more than happy to, at best, wish them unhappy, lonely and short lives, and at worst, encourage their imprisonment and brutal deaths. Faced with that kind of opponent – the Bachmanns being a prime example – I consider GLBT people have the absolute and sole right to choose their tactics and weapons against an enemy that has no scruples, honour or pity whatsoever.
The Bachmanns destroy lives. Marcus can live with the ‘shame’ of people thinking he’s queer.
El Cid
__
[The following started out being a response, but then I figured most of it’s my feeling like releasing steam pressure over my hatred for these active and powerful segregationist fuckers, so, here it is anyway.]
Considering that Thurmond paid for the child’s education and the daughter was born when he was 22, and continued to pay for her into adulthood, it seems very contemporaneous in any policy-related aspect when it has to do with his actual Dixiecrat campaign and his general later activism for racist oppression.
The “Dixiecrat” move was just one manifestation of a battle to keep Southern African Americans locked in the status of oppressed serfdom.
What was contemporaneous with ‘the whole Dixiecrat BS’ — i.e., running a flat-out racist segregationist neo-Confederate crusade to torpedo a Democratic President — was the fact that while Strom Thurmond was screaming that to do anything to end segregation was Stalinist tyranny, he said not one word about having fathered a child with a black woman.
Fuck Strom Thurmond, who originally took a milder, NC-style approach to New South racial moderation — i.e.furiously going after a white lynch mob — and despite his distant (reportedly) love and support for his daughter, he chose the path of racist segregationist bastard.
So while I fully understand that “whole Dixiecrat BS” was just a phrase you used, it’s important to emphasize that the Dixiecrat, I mean, “States Rights” campaign was no unusual deviation, but one strategy to keep in place the racial system which was admired and copied by the South African Nationalist apartheid regime.
It was what Thurmond’s career was all about after Truman’s Civil Rights Commission and military integration order. And the whole filibustering one of the early civil rights acts, however weak it was.
So, yes, as far as we know Thurmond’s sexual interest in black women was limited to the one occasion when as a 22 year old man he fathered a child with a woman working in his parents’ home.
Even Thurmond, though, couldn’t compete for pure evil bile with someone like Jesse Helms, but still, though.
On the other hand, you have to give him credit for managing to hold on to his position of power so long that his role in moving the white conservative South to its more natural home in the Republican party began when he was 62, and was in power until the age of 100.