Apparently while I was writing my post about David Duke, Casey Anthony was acquitted. I just turned on CNN to watch the Nancy Grace head explosion, already in progress. She is losing her shit, needless to say, and I would not be surprised if one of her rabid viewers ends up taking justice into their own hands. I mean, this woman is frothing at the mouth. It’s scary, actually.
That said, the tweet by HaHaWhitePPL is awesome sauce.
So, er… open thread.
[via The Awl]
A L
This is not the verdict America needs, but it’s the verdict it deserves etc. etc. etc.
Brian R.
Shit, does this mean the media is going to focus on this goddamn case even more?
The way they cover it, you think this was the only murder to take place in America in the past decade, or that Casey Anthony was the president of the United States.
Thank God we don’t have any real problems in this country, so the media can devote all their time to this bullshit.
General Stuck
Wow, what little I know about the case, even her parents thought she was guilty, I think. The prosecutors must have fucked up big time, or it was an Al Capone jury. That fucking witch Nancy Grace does not broadcast in my bunker.
Woodrowfan
WOW, the Yahoo thread has over 18,000 comments already!
PeakVT
Our long national nightmare is over. Or not. I don’t know or care, frankly.
MattR
Barely followed the trial, but loving watching Nancy Grace try to cover her ass. She was upset and annoyed that one of the defense attorneys blasted the incompetent media coverage. Can’t wait to see how she reacts now that the prosecutor made statements about all the unnecessary costs because the media turned this into a frenzy.
Brian R – It is amazing to see that there are people who had never met the Anthonys prior to this case who are in tears by the “injustice” of the verdict and the horror that poor Caylee will not be avenged.
4tehlulz
@General Stuck: Biggest choke job since OJ. Not kidding.
I hope the judge has beefed up protection. Nancy’s venom might give someone ideas.
OzoneR
This verdict reaffirms my cynical belief that if America knew how it’s justice system worked, it would dump it.
Are any of you really going to tell me after seeing this reaction that Americans are truly progressives when it comes to justice and civil rights? This a country that apparently thinks it knows better than a sworn jury based on what they saw on the TV.
Gin & Tonic
I’ve followed only enough of this case to recognize the name of the defendant, although I know none of the details. But the thing that has intrigued me is that it’s run for quite some time, if I’m not mistaken (not just the trial, but everything before.) The defendant’s attorney is obviously skilled, and has a staff. Casey Anthony is a person of, how shall I say this, not unlimited wealth, apparently. How does she get the scratch to pay this guy?
Amanda in the South Bay
The particular case doesn’t interest me, but anything that pisses off Nancy Grace has to be a good thing.
But fuck, I didn’t think about it till I read this thread, but yeah, there are enough crazy fuckers who I’m sure follow her and might take this into their own hands.
Martin
Meh. If I were on the jury I’d have ruled guilty, no sentence – credit for time served by having Nancy Grace all up your ass for the last year.
ABL
who are the people that feel they need to add that 18 thousandth teary comment. you’d think these people KNOW the anthonys.
oy.
different church-lady
@ #5
For you, that is fixed.
FlipYrWhig
My feeling has long been, if you don’t like what juries do, try to be on one. If you bitch about jury duty and try hard to get out of it, seems to me you give up your right to complain about how some jury somewhere fulfilled the function you were too important to do when it was your turn.
MattR
Gin & Tonic – Just found this ABC article. Jose Baez was finally admitted to the bar in 2005 and has a bit of a checkered past. Seems like he was getting mixed reviews during the trial about whether he was over his head.
KXB
I did not follow the case. Anytime even a mention of it would come on, I would change the channel or just tune out. It’s a nightmare for the family, and an issue for the local population, but I did not see what was the national interest in it.
My co-worker, a woman from India, came back from lunch with the news, and she was in genuine shock. I told her that more often that not in the U.S., a mother accused of murdering her kids has a better chance than a father accused of murdering his children. Well, white moms anyway – but I did not want to touch upon that issue.
Brian R.
Yup. But they know the teevee, and the teevee told them to get real sad and real mad!
BeccaM
Nancy Grace always scares the shit out of me. Something about that woman and her unhinged rage just gives me the heebies.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I somehow managed to remain pretty unaware of this case until about two weeks ago, and I’m surprised by the verdict but don’t know what the facts/arguments were. I remember after the OJ verdict (since it came up) one of the jurors said she didn’t think OJ was innocent, she thought the prosecutors proved their case.
Gin & Tonic
@MattR — Be that as it may, he won the case. And I doubt he works for free. So where’s the money in this?
dave
@8 This.
Also, the above tweet is not even remotely awesome. It is actually a trifecta of suck: (1) It criticizes a defense lawyer for simply doing his job; (2) it criticizes Kim Kardashian for her father’s “sins”; and (3) it ignores the fact that the Kardashians have a strained relationship with Robert Kardashian over the OJ case.
Bonus suck: It has forced me to quasi-defend Kim Kardashian’s tweet which is itself inane on at least two levels.
meh
I have a daughter about the same age as the Casey Anthony’s kid so I followed the case more than I would normally (which is to say not at all). After seeing a couple of days of testimony and the structure of the various lies she told the multitude of law enforcement officials, I believe that she’s 100% guilty (jury verdict not withstanding). This is a case of not seeing the forest from the trees – the defense set up an OJ like plan of attacking things on a microscopic level to make it difficult for the jury to see the whole picture (as there were minor issues with individual pieces of evidence). Sadly, that woman killed her child or negligently stood by while her child died, then actively covered it up culminating with her dumping her child’s body in a swamp the way you would a used piece of furniture. For her to now walk out scott-free with the probability of cashing in on “octo-mom” like fame while her child rots in a grave is disturbing beyond words…
FlipYrWhig
@ Stuck, I know you don’t need to be reminded about this, but the defendant can be guilty as a matter of fact but not _found_ guilty if the prosecution can’t convince. That’s one of the interesting features of the justice system from a civil-liberties viewpoint: the state has to prove its case and has to abide by certain practices in the process.
Martin
Up and coming atty wins a national case? The money is is the next 10 cases he takes plus the book deal.
General Stuck
Oh well, what’s one more sociopath running around the country. Maybe she will run for congress as a wingnut jeebus freak, and help cause some murder and mayhem on a more biblical scale.
bemused
Every time I’ve seen her which I try to avoid as much as possible, she is frothing at the mouth. I thought she had already lost all her shit but from your description….yikes.
FlipYrWhig
@ G&T: There’s a lot of money and celebrity in being a go-to guy for the _next_ high-profile criminal defense case.
Tonal Crow
I haven’t followed this case (all the sensationalism put me off it), so I have only one thing to say: requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt to obtain a conviction is one of America’s very best aspects.
jeffreyw
Take a shot for every comment that begins: “I wasn’t following/paying attention to this case but…”
Jay in Oregon
I had to fucking look up who Nancy Grace was, that’s how little I know (or care) about this case.
Now I remember her; she’s the asshat who was fictionalized in the Leverage episode “The Three Days of the Hunter Job”, an episode that was cross-promoted with her show. Beautiful.
MattR
Was nice to see one of the police detectives (or spokesman) mention that they are going back to work tomorrow like they do every day to work on all the unsolved homicides that do not get media attention.
Gin & Tonic – A good point. Even if he wanted to work pro bono since this case was great advertising, I don’t think he could afford to cover the costs of the entire defense team and all the work they did. But he also might have been willing to take the case for less than the multi-millions that OJ paid. No idea if Casey had the means to scrape together or borrow $25 or $50K if she needed to.
PurpleGirl
Any time I read or heard the name Kardashian, I did wonder if they were related to the OJ lawyer… that question for the ages is now answered and I can continue to ignore them.
As I said in a previous thread, I’ve loathed Nancy Grace since she first appeared on Court TV. I’ll continue to ignore her too.
bemused
I know our media is loony but I still don’t get why this particular case has gotten so damn much coverage over all the other child murder cases. It’s been 24/7 for who knows how long.
Gin & Tonic
@Martin — Maybe so, but according to the ABC article referenced upthread, Baez is in foreclosure on a deeply underwater house. Even if he is willing to live in a cardboard box hoping for the deferred payout, his office staff also has to buy groceries and pay the rent, now, not next year or the year after when the book deal comes through.
Morbid curiosity on my part. Like with the Amanda Knox case, which is costing a fortune, for a family where I see no fortune.
Cris (without an H)
@FlipYrWhig: Nothing can take away my right to complain. I have a license to complain: I have an internet connection.
daveNYC
Just did a quick Google on this. Her defense was that the kid drowned in the pool, but her father tried to cover it up or some such, and her father didn’t even back that story. I’m sure this verdict will be used as an example of how government doesn’t work.
General Stuck
Flip
I said the prosecutors probly fucked up, meaning they didn’t convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt And I salute the system for working like it should. So no. I don’t really need to be reminded of that. But thanks anyways.
I happen to still think she was guilty, which is my right. And offering snark for that purpose. Though between you, me and the light post. I don’t much give a shit, we got bigger problems that a single murder case in Florida.
Han's Solo
Amanda @ 10 nails it with this:
Nancy Grace is totally unhinged. I don’t know a thing about this case, from what information I couldn’t avoid I’ve learned that the defense put on a terrible case, but the prosecutors didn’t have much in the way of evidence, so it didn’t matter.
I know this will sound silly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we found out Nancy Grace killed the baby just to have something to scream about. All she would have to do to insure media coverage is find a hot 20-something white mother, off the kid under suspicious circumstances, pop a alka seltzer in her mouth and begin ranting and mouth foaming.
I’m mostly kidding… mostly.
Martin
I don’t see any of those there. It’s a fairly simple contrasting statement – if the family of Nicole, who were in the courtroom every day were shocked at the verdict, what right does Kim, who I expect was in the courtroom precisely 0 days, have to criticize the outcome of this?
I don’t see any criticism from HaHaWhitePPL on the attys – only on Kim. It’s Kim that’s forming a judgement on Anthony’s lawyer. The OJ verdict is left as it stands, with acknowledgement of the reaction and that contrasted against the Anthony verdict, as it stands, and the related reaction.
Not sure how the strained relation has to do with any of this. If anything it should serve to remind Kim that she should STFU – people in glass houses and all that.
Rosalita
@ Becca #18
Her shellacked hair makes my teeth itch. It does.not.move.
srv
Who is this Casey and what does he have to do with Obama?
cleek
don’t care. but i still blame Obama.
also: this is racist.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
If only Nancy Grace had used the bully pulpit!
Martin
Perhaps he bet the farm on this case, dumped all of his assets into his staff along with whatever else would come along in payment, and is hoping his ship comes in with the result. Not exactly an unheard of formula. He could have a 7-figure advance on the book by the end of the week. Maybe that was part of the payment deal with Anthony – he gets all book rights.
Martin
Here’s the $10,000 question. If Nancy Grace went to the caribbean on vacation and mysteriously vanished, presumed dead, would anyone give a shit, or would CNN just quietly cancel her show?
Han's Solo
Repeat after me: Hot White Woman, Hot White Woman, Hot White Woman…
If anyone can come up with another reason, please share.
AnotherBruce
Who is Casey Anthony and why should I care?
Cris (without an H)
He was the director of the CIA during Iran-Contra. He oversaw covert support of the mujahadeen. So I guess you could say Osama bin Laden’s career began with Bill Casey and ended with Barack Obama, oh yeah
Gin & Tonic
@Martin — That’s a bet that takes some brass balls. If he loses the case, he is bankrupt.
Violet
I do not care about Casey Anthony and I don’t see why so many people do. Apparently this case has not only been news here, it’s a big deal in other countries. I don’t understand that at all.
dave
Martin –
The criticism of Robert Kardashian is strongly implied by the statement “your dad got OJ off.”
Kim is forming a judgment on the jury verdict and the tweet (and you) are criticizing her for doing so solely on the basis that her father “got OJ off.”
In what sense is Kim Kardashian in a “glass house” other than her father’s completely appropriate and independent actions (actions which Kim Kardashian does not even approve)?
Damn you for causing me defend this woman!
bemused
Martin@45, OK, that was pretty funny.
Hans@46, Shes hot? I didn’t think she was particularly hot and isn’t a blonde either so that made the media frenzy even more puzzling to me.
MikeJ
G&T:
And if he doesn’t take the case he’s bankrupt.
Cris (without an H)
You know who else wasn’t particularly hot and isn’t a blonde? THAT’S RIGHT
what, I meant Sarah Palin of course
Han's Solo
So Kardashian got OJ off? I thought they only dated athletes that were currently playing, not retired old fuddy duddy murderers like OJ.
MikeJ
And to add to G&T, he’s not necessarily bankrupt if he loses. You don’t have to win a case to get a book deal.
NobodySpecial
ABruce: Dead white kid. Mom supposedly did it, Mom took the OJ escape. I take solace in the fact that 50 years after the murder of another little girl, Chicago police finally made an arrest.
Anonne
I didn’t follow this case much, but I will say this – just because the mother lies about a few things is not a smoking gun. I had a feeling she would be acquitted. You need more than just innuendo to convict someone. And even though she is scum, the system probably worked the way it should have.
lkt
Her lawyer was appointed by the Court and her entire defense was paid for by the good people of the State of Florida.
Culture of Truth
I haven’t followed this, but over the weekend my twitter feed lit up with criticisms of the defense attorney, who was called incompetent, etc., no doubt by people who have tried many complex cases themselves.
Martin
That might have been the outcome anyway. There aren’t degrees of bankrupt, so if the writing is on the wall, go big.
martha
I paid no attention to this case (notice this preface to my uninformed speculation). But what little I heard made me think that the poor daughter drowned in the swimming pool by accident or by some negligence (e.g., being ignored by her caregivers) and then, everyone panicked in a horrible situation. And no one thought to just tell the truth.
And I cannot bear Nancy Grace and she is so mean that I am glad her head is exploding today.
Cris (without an H)
@NobodySpecial: In your reply to Another Bruce, did you intend to paste the url to “Sesame Street Big Pimpin?”
Han's Solo
Bemused – Blond is nice, but not mandatory. Maybe the first time Nancy Grace saw her it was in a picture where she had her hair dyed blond and was dressed up to go out. She’s been in jail for three years and, I’d guess, not had as much time or enough tools to properly beautify. It is only natural she would not look her best.
But seriously, does anyone think the media would pay so much attention if she weren’t young, pretty and white? Maybe, if she were already famous, they would. But she wasn’t.
Cris (without an H)
My liquor store isn’t big enough to handle this
Culture of Truth
From what I understand, it was this year’s Trial of the Century.
Martin
Kim has nothing invested, and certainly no legal insight on this case. She is at most a spectator, and has no basis for outrage. By comparison, there are people that are personally affected by the outcome of these cases (ruled rightly or wrongly) and she of all people should be sensitive to that fact. No, she didn’t defend OJ, but her dad did, and if she is estranged from him over that fact then she of all people should, just out of plain decency, STFU about backseat judging the outcome of a case.
MikeJ
NobodySpecial @ 57:
Was accused of a crime that the prosecutor couldn’t prove even with the unlimited power and money of the government?
NobodySpecial
Cris: Perhaps not, but at least my mistake has some humor value.
gbear
There have been eleven BJ posts so far today. I’d be willing to bet money that this post will have the most comments by the end of the day. Hope I’m wrong but it seems we’re all suckers for this stuff even when we don’t want to be.
4tehlulz
@gbear: Your obligatory “Tsk tsk” post is noted.
maus
i’m so surprised that she was found not guilty with smoking gun evidence like
Nancy Grace, god of death, fumes on her throne of toddler-skulls.
Han's Solo
gbear @ 70 – The amazing thing is most of us didn’t pay attention in the least.
I don’t know if she did it or not, neither does the jury. The one thing that is totally clear is that our media could suck the chrome off a trailer hitch through thirty yards of garden hose.
Oh, one other thing is clear: Nancy Grace would be a great candidate for a lobotomy.
murican
@Martha:”I paid no attention to this case”
Neither did the jurors.
Martin
Nah, Obama is supposed to talk about debt limit negotiations in a few minutes. No doubt we’ll be subject to a post about the actual speech, complete with trolling, and then the inevitable Worse Than Bush/Republicans are Nazis meta flamewar that will follow. My guess is the 3rd post after this one will be the winner.
bemused
Han’s, possibly. It’s also a perfect story for the media to jump on and do their best to turn it into a gigantic freaking circus that takes up a ton of air time which means much less reporting on boring (to them) issues like budget battles, jobs.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
the entire existence of the kardashian clan in pop culture is like the case of crabs we got from the o.j. simpson fuck-all.
Mary Jane
@Dave 21
If this is indeed true, past tense should be used. He died in 2003. Actually, they should be grateful; he’s the only reason they’re famous. There are thousands of women in L.A. just like them.
maus
@74:
Right, because you were there and “crime reporters” give you an unbiased narrative.
Fuck America, fuck our stupid obsession with witch hunts and mob behavior. I can’t believe I’m coming back to this Idiocracy after the 4th.
MattR
Martin – Obama better give us his take on the Casey Anthony verdict.
maus
@80:
I wonder which network will be first to get the “scoop”.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
You just know Jake Tapper will be asking that at the next presser.
meh
one thing i’ve noticed anecdotally is that the people that tend to be more pissed off about the verdict are people with kids whereas people without kids are blah about it or much more “what’s the big deal?”. Not saying thats how it is everywhere but that’s how it’s playing out with the people that I know.
Andre
Every time I hear the name Nancy Grace, I think of this and then I feel better.
Martin
Not really. The Kardashians are a fairly uncommon mix of vapid, self-obsessed wealth, and not as hot as they think they are. Even in LA there aren’t that many with the trifecta. Pick any two, though…
Xenos
I am terribly amused by this. After France’s devastating loss to Germany in the Women’s World Cup, it gives me strength to carry on.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
If the Duct Tape doesn’t fit,
Then you must acquit.
Martin
Yeah, I also put money on Jake to go there first.
burnspbesq
@ Gin & Tonic:
“So where’s the money in this?”
In the future. Winning this case is a great thing to dangle in front of potential clients.
meh
@ Mike Kay – congrats on making a joke about a dead two year old who probably died alone, and scared, and crying for her mother. You win scumbag of the day.
Martin
I would say, as a parent, that the starting assumption is that any dead kid is a failure of parenting. Full stop. And getting from that point to ‘not guilty’ is a unfathomably long journey.
murican
@ maus 79: “Right, because you were there and “crime reporters” give you an unbiased narrative.”
Not so fast, little mouse. I’ve only practiced law in Florida for 30 years. I’m pretty sure I’ve got a better idea about it than you and your “crime reporters” do. The jury fucked this one up big time. Why? Because they’re easily confused and wanted to get bask home to Pinellas to watch TV.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
Kim Kardashian sexting scandal errupts
http://bumpshack.com/2011/06/08/bret-lockett-has-proof-of-kim-kardashian-sexting/
Maybe she can replace Wiener in Brooklyn.
Catsy
That was the impression I got, too: people panicking and making bad decisions in an attempt to cover up a horrible accident. It doesn’t mean that’s what happened, it doesn’t make it right, and it doesn’t make her mom of the year–but it’s at least as plausible as someone murdering their toddler child in cold blood.
Of course, I wasn’t on the jury, so take that for whatever little it’s worth.
Interestingly, the admonition that people watching TV don’t know all the facts and evidence that the jury has works both ways. Those of us playing the home game are not privy to a vast number of facts, true, but the scope of the facts introduced to the jury is often very limited in different ways when compared to what gets broadcast about a high-profile case.
For example, a leaked detail that we might think is damning could well have been introduced by one team, objected to by another, and ruled inadmissible by the judge before the jury ever sees it. We sit here thinking, “how can they see that and think she’s not guilty?” when the jury has either never seen this piece of evidence or has been specifically instructed by the judge to disregard it.
Hal
I was just telling my coworker Nancy Grace would be stroking out any minute. I would gladly throw her in the gas chamber in place of Casey.
P.S. 1000+ win for that tweet back at Kim Kardashian,
Keith G
I also have been lucky enough to have steered clear of coverage of this case. Just by accident, I came across news story of the Christian Choate (13 yr old boy) murder.
Will Christian’s death (far more awful, it seems) generate the nation-wide buzz as the death of a younger girl? Does it matter one way or another?
elmo
I have a reflexive reaction to media prosecutions — meaning any prosecution or arrest that gets big media coverage with the help or assistance of law enforcement. “Bullshit.” It’s my general rule: the instant the State, with its awesome power, elects to marshal not only its own power but the power of media against a lone individual, it’s because the State has bupkis, can’t prove squat, and wants to pressure a deal. So my general reaction is to be happy when the State loses those cases, because the State should ALWAYS have to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. Not to the TV audience between commercials, but to the jury.
cckids
I think the hook that pulled the media attention in is that the little girl was gone for over a month before her mom let anyone know she was gone, then the grandma had to call the cops. Mom has never had any realistic explanation of WTF that happened. The weirdness of that started the media circus, which since then, has fed on itself.
dave
“No, she didn’t defend OJ, but her dad did, and if she is estranged from him over that fact then she of all people should, just out of plain decency, STFU about backseat judging the outcome of a case.”
Your principled stand against anyone commenting on criminal verdicts that isn’t personally affected by the outcome would be more impressive if you weren’t applying it selectively to one individual within a thread in which probably 50 people have done precisely the thing you criticize Kim Kardashian for.
As I said above, Kim’s tweet was inane on at least two levels and I have no interest in defending its (nearly non-existent)merits. In fact, I actually could support the principle that we should all STFU about this case which none of us actually truly knows anything about. But why single out Ms. Kardashian for such criticism?
Keith G
Save it for your book.
Martin
Nah. His parent look to me like reliable Republicans. No need to shame them needlessly. I imagine public workers will be made out to be the real villains in that story.
MattR
I feel like it is semi-related to point out that Comedy Central announced that they will be broadcasting a roast of Charlie Sheen on the night that Two and a Half Men premieres with Ashton Kutcher.
maus
@96: I haven’t seen a tiny fraction of the coverage devoted to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Raul_and_Brisenia_Flores
Cain
@PeakVT
But now we need to let the healing begin! (with vaseline)
drkrick
If by “strained relationship” you mean the fact that he’s been dead for 8 years or that her mother and he divorced three years before Nicole Simpson’s death, great comment. And if you can’t see that a tweet about how unbelievable this all is, coming from the child of one of Simpson’s “dream team”, is a little rich I doubt anyone can explain it to you.
schrodinger's cat
I have no idea who Casey Anthony is. I have not followed this story at all, something tells I haven’t missed much.
Cermet
Innocent – case closed. Lets move on to real fucking issues that concern 99.99999997% of americans in a real manner.
maus
@92:
such dazzling insights have you to offer
Cris (without an H)
(* This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.)
Joel
In some ways, this case gave me optimism. I remember the Simpson trial and how much it loomed over our culture; in the bad old days when everyone watched broadcast television, you couldn’t avoid the damn case. Now, something like this passes by and despite the media’s best efforts, the whole affair could blow over like a fart in the breeze. Thanks, fragmentation!
MattR
maus – It is interesting to see that lawyer respond to your argument that he wasn’t there and doesn’t know all the details so he shouldn’t be criticizing the jury by stating that he knows more about it than you do. If he thinks that is a good argument, I am not surprised that he thinks that the juries that constantly rule against him are easily confused and fucking things up.
Cain
@cleek
Couldn’t you have waited till WyldPilates had weighed in? Jeebus.
Martin
That wasn’t my principled stand. My principled stand was that of all people that should refrain from opining on the outcome of a case are those that were caught up in the inner working of a case that generated similar outrage.
I’m not defending or accusing everyone else commenting here, but if Kim was estranged from her dad over the verdict of a case (without judging whether it was a good or bad verdict), she of all people should know how painful that can be for others and should refrain from piling on. I’m singling Kim out because she is somewhat uniquely qualified to understand the impact of this. Sometimes your unique, even if coincidental, relationship to an event forces you to stay silent on it. Basically, folks named Kardashian should stay silent on cases perceived to be judged wrongly. It’s such a small burden for her to bear, and she cannot stand to bear it.
drkrick
@Joel – Perhaps the difference has less to do with cultural maturity and more to do with the fact that Casey Anthony hadn’t been a popular media figure for 20+ years before the accusation. The fascination of finding out that someone people thought they “knew” was such a monster was powerful stuff.
Crusty Dem
@92
Yeah, well I’ve been a lawyer in Florida for 40 years, have served on the state SC for 3, and think you’re an idiot and can blow it out your ass.
/can be whomever I want on the internet
//not convinced by your argument from questionable authority
Gin & Tonic
“The future, Mr. Gittes. The future.”
murican
@111 – You’re clueless too. Are you and maus blood brothers or something?
stinkdaddy
Medicare and Medicaid are on the table. After going on Olbermann five days ago and saying they were both out of the question, Schumer now says Dems are “very willing” to entertain Medicare cuts.
Please, Balloon-Juice, tell me how this is part of the long game and not evidence of massive capitulation. Is it that Obama is a President, not a dictator? Am I expecting him to wave his magic wand? No wait I get it, Schumer’s not actually part of the Gang of Six, so therefore he has no idea what’s actually going on behind the scenes. Yeah, that’s the ticket; he’s only the Senate Dems’ policy and messaging guy, after all, so he probably isn’t in the loop.
Back in real life, the most likely sequence of events is a few responses to this saying I’m nuts and conspiratorial and the sky is falling and maybe something really clever about how I’m working through trauma from Obama molesting me (the “show us on the doll” line that you all love so much it became a tag) followed by those same people pretending, a week or two from now, that they knew the healthcare cuts were coming all along because obviously that would’ve been the only responsible thing to do. Dems take the only issue they’ve gotten any traction on in the last 3 years off the table, lose WH and Senate in ’12, and BJ regulars blame firebaggers for dampening voter enthusiasm. Same old story — all that really matters is that Obama isn’t held accountable for anything, no matter how monumentally he fucks up. The Congressional GOP are mean, don’t you know.
murican
@115:”Yeah, well I’ve been a lawyer in Florida for 40 years, have served on the state SC for 3, and think you’re an idiot and can blow it out your ass.
/can be whomever I want on the internet
//not convinced by your argument from questionable authority”
That really means a lot to me. Anyone who has served on the state SC for 3 (whatever that is) really’s got it going.
MikeBoyScout
In any given year it is hard to quantify what I’ve accomplished, but in reading this post I am made happy.
I have no idea who Casey Anthony is, why the intertubes are inflamed about her case, and I’ve never heard of Nancy Grace.
Seems to me it has been a good year.
MattR
murican – Please explain to me how “I know more than you” is a valid response to “You were not on the jury and don’t know all the details so stop criticizing those who were”? If you wanted to argue that you were a lawyer who paid very close attention to the case or were in the courtroom every day, that would be valid. But just the idea that you have practiced law in the general area for a long time does not respond to the actual criticism about this case.
stinkdaddy
@119 If that isn’t a perfect encapsulation of our society I don’t know what is.
“There’s probably some unpleasant stuff going on out there, but I’m unaware of it so this is a good year.”
You even equated being unaware of something with an accomplishment. Unfortunately, just like all the people who tune out politics, this stuff is still going on and it still affects your life even if you personally drown it out. Ignoring it won’t make all the people affected by it go away.
Cris (without an H)
I think we’re a bit too busy quipping about a tabloid courtroom story to bother responding to you
Martin
Outcomes matter, not process. Remember when FDL and GOS were shrieking that Obama was going to fully embrace the catfood commission and sell out Medicare and Social Security in the budget fight back in April?
Yeah, it didn’t happen. At all. You guys go through this every few months about how you’re being sold out, and then you aren’t sold out, and you fail to learn the difference between what politicians say on TV as part of some kind of negotiation/shaping the electorate kind of bullshit that they do and what they ACTUALLY do, and then a few months later you’re back to freaking out about being sold out.
Tip: don’t have kids, or else you’re going to slit your wrists every time they tell you they don’t love you. They fucking learn how to play that game when they’re 2, and you still fall for it every time.
BruinKid
@BeccaM:
As Bill Maher noted, it may be a good thing she’s on TV:
Darkrose
@Jay in Oregon: Yes! Every time I hear Nancy Grace’s name, I think about that episode, which is one of my favorites.
“I am a black man caught sneaking into a military base with a video camera. I am going to jail FOREVER.”
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
@21 dave
Welcome to another 11-dimensional ABL inanity.
.
.
meh
sadly quoted for truthiness – being manipulated by a two year old is an ego blow…
ABL
@Martin #123-
Boo ya.
Han's Solo
Zap has some clips of Nancy’s foaming.
http://blog.zap2it.com/pop2it/2011/07/nancy-grace-on-casey-anthony-verdict-the-devil-is-dancing.html#comment-1321012
I like the comment section, “If there is any justice Casey Anthony will sue Nancy Grace for slander and libel.”
General Stuck
Read the article you linked, sparky. Schummer says nothing different than he and Obama have been saying all along. That cuts in medicare and medicaid, as cost savings in areas other than benefits.
reiteration # 3276. Dems are not going to cut benefits to their social programs right now, or likely into the future.
And republicans are only interested in slashing benefits, not on actual areas of non benefit operational savings. Dems and Schumer, in turn are requiring higher taxes on the wealthy and closing tax loopholes for corps. Or, IOW’s offering wingnuts another pig in a poke like with the cuts that weren’t in the government funding bill a few months ago. And things like bargaining with drug companies for lower drug prices.
Dems need better supporters, not better dems.
Lysana
@meh at 83: I’m seeing apathy from one mother I know. Well, I won’t say apathy. I’ll say “anger at the fact this white woman’s case is getting so much attention while so many other kids who are more provably killed by their parents get willfully ignored because they’re people of color.” She and I are both white, and I agree with her. The media attention on this case was horrifically stupid.
ABL
Uncle Clarence Thomas – July 5, 2011 | 5:39 pm · Link
Q: What’s round, brown and full of hot steamy goodness?
A: PIE!
—
nothing beats this.
ABL
not only that, but i read somewhere that the media clusterfuck resulted in a massive increase in costs of this trial. if that’s the case, then the florida taxpayers should thank that crazyass on cnn.
Gin & Tonic
I read this in the Kaplan Post’s article about this
Somebody needs to find a hobby or something.
Mnemosyne
@ stinkdaddy
Well, if lobbyists for nursing homes and hospitals who don’t want their Medicare/Medicaid payments to be cut say it, it must be true.
I’m assuming you believe that cutting the very expensive and privately run Medicare Advantage program counts as scary, scary Medicare cuts that Obama should steer clear from?
maus
@116:
It’s not even so much appeal to false authority as you’re offering nothing but “SHUT UP I AM A LAWYER”. You sure are shitty at discussing anything for someone with a JD.
Fuck, I spent 27 years in Florida but I still roll my eyes at anyone who says “HURF DURF THAT’S FLORIDA FOR YOU” as if the whole was Glenn Beckville.
Jewish Steel
@Cain: WyldPilates are no joke. That shit can land you in traction.
ABL
how malkin of you.
Martin
It is isn’t it? I remember the first time my daughter was throwing a full-on little fists and feet against the floor tantrum, and then eased up just long enough to peek out of the corner of her eye to see if I was still paying attention, and then resumed her tantrum.
I learned a lot that day. Ignore the theatrics, focus on the results. As long as she’s not trading blowjobs for crack and instead getting As in school, she can tell me every day that she doesn’t love me.
ABL
wonder if she’s ever purified herself in the waters of lake minnetonka?
Cain
@Jewish Steel
Yes, Pilates can do that.. but WyldPilates is much worse.. you have to scream OBAMA SOLD US OUT when it hurts.
quannlace
In my limited experience, jurors take their job very seriously.
eemom
@ meh
I’m also a mother (obv) though my kids are much older. I haven’t followed the case because I honestly can’t endure the thought of any child suffering a horror such as this.
However, one doesn’t have to be a mother to be revolted by the crass humor on this thread. Please, people, find something else to joke about.
Cain
Of course this chick is screwed for the next five years or so as she’ll be a pariah in the community. She’ll have to move to move to Canada or something to get away from it all.
Martin
I think she did. Put another way, she’s getting more value for the dollar than most people’s hobbies I know.
Martin
And it always hurts – 24/7.
Gin & Tonic
Which raises the obvious question — what if she were accomplishing both?
Comrade Luke
All you need to know about our culture is that the shock of hearing she was found not guilty has been immediately followed by “What will Nancy Grace’s reaction be?”. Seriously – on twitter right now, the top three trending topics are “notguilty”, “caseyanthonyverdict”, and “Nancy Grace”.
We are so beyond saving it’s not even funny.
Brachiator
I didn’t follow the case, even tried to avoid it, but I couldn’t avoid the hoopla over the announcement of the verdict.
A bonehead talkshow host on the top rated Los Angeles area radio station, like many others were stunned at the verdict. I was stunned at his reaction.
He believes that since Casey was the mother of the child, she should have been held responsible for the child’s death. He also kept going on about how pictures of her apparent partying was an indicator of her guilt, because she did not show any grief.
No discussion of any evidence, for or against her innocence. Just backwards nonsense that you should be able to just look at someone and determine their guilt, along with the nonsense, even relied upon by a lot of people who should know better, that guilt or innocence is somehow absolutely related to gender or social class.
ABL
i don’t see how anyone can make a judgment about this case having seen TV broadcasts of the trial.
also, i’m not sure what “attacking things on a microscopic level” means. either the prosecution had the evidence and proved their case or it didn’t. and if the state didn’t have evidence to support a Murder 1 charge, they should have gone with a lesser charge.
convicting people to death based on a feeling about the forest vs. the trees is exactly not the way the system is supposed to work. that’s how innocent people end up in jail.
that said, i haven’t followed this case at all, so i don’t have a gut sense about her innocence but it is also my experience that jurors take their jobs very seriously.
of course nancy grace is going on about how somebody was supposed to go on vacation on the 7th and what does that mean.
she’s a vulture.
Martin
Look, my own imagination keeps me well fed with nightmares about boyfriends and such, I really don’t need the assist here, mmm-kay?
jo6pac
Who and the press will just move on to some other who cares story.
kay
Just be careful, and read what they’re saying in the context of the health care law.
Federal payments to hospitals for “uncompensated care” are (presumably) going to go down dramatically when Medicaid is expanded and the insurance exchanges are up. Payment increases to providers are going to undergo a new review (if the independent advisory board established by PPACA susrvives, so that’s another area they can offer as “cuts” that was going to happen anyway. Republicans will agree to say those are cuts, to appease their base.
I suggest ignoring (initial) screeching by lobbyists for providers (physicians and hospitals): they’re paid to say the sky is falling if their compensation doesn’t go up each and every year. It works, too, or always has. Their compensation goes up every year, which is why we needed an independent payment advisory board in the first place. Congress never once resisted provider lobbyists. That’s why we have this “doc fix” every year.
Just let it settle out a bit, so we can pick out the crazed lobbying from the facts.
Broadly, Democrats are looking at holding the line on spending growth from rom providers (not beneficiaries) and Republicans are looking to shift costs to individual beneficiaries, with no controls on cost. That’s the gist of the (real) ideological battle here.
Who pays? is now and has always been the question. Ryan says “Medicare and Medicaid recipients pay”. Schumer says “providers are going to have to save/pay more”. That’s the real question that they’re debating here, despite all the reams of bullshit conservatives are churning out.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
The Roger Clemens case begins tomorrow.
As a Red Sox fan, if Obama doesn’t give him a pardon, then he should be primaried.
Gin & Tonic
I simply can’t understand how anyone can tolerate watching her, even ironically or in some “meta” way. My remote can’t switch away fast enough if I happen to stumble across her.
eemom
Also too, I haven’t been following Nancy Grace. Who the fuck is Nancy Grace?
meh
fixd
Catsy
That line of argument always bugged me. People who make arguments like this forget how easily most human beings compartmentalize.
Gin & Tonic
And yes, to those keeping score at home, this *is* the most-commented post of the day, by a significant margin.
Martin
As I was suggesting above, that assumption is inevitable. I would assume anyone who didn’t follow the case would react with a fairly predictable “How could she not be guilty?”, and anyone who did follow the case would be fighting off of that assumption.
The cultural attitude today is if your kid is playing in the backyard and is killed by a meteor, the base opinion offered would be “What kind of parent would let their kid play in the backyard like that!”
The exception is the Christian Choate case where the parents would be ruled the victims of the liberal agenda for torturing their kid for years as no parent could possibly do that without some kind of societal assist, and the blame will be squarely placed on the public officials who should have known better and prevented this from happening. The parents will find plenty of quiet defenders.
One of those losers who followed the Casey Anthony trial
Re who is paying for Casey’s defense all attorneys except perhaps Jose Baez, were working pro bono. This poor guy, this reporter in the video, the other night I thought Nancy Grace was going to reach through the screen and rip his throat out simply for relaying some of the defense strategy, which she was asking him about anyway. He finally said, “you’re gonna cut my mike, aren’t you?”
*She made $275,000 selling rights to some of the home videos and photos.
Comrade Luke
Yup. That’s really all that needs to be said. Yet that Yahoo story is approaching 20,000 comments.
Phyllis
There’s a ‘remember caylee’ meme/post/repost already started on Facebook. I wanted to ask one of my friends (high school classmate) who posted it if he knew the child personally.
Cris
Obviously I’ve been reading crass humor on the internet for far too long, because I don’t really see what you’re talking about. I barely see any discussion of the actual case at hand (it’s mostly a reaction to a reaction), much less crass comments about it.
I guess one person objected to one comment that lampooned Johnnie Cochran’s famous line, using a detail of the Anthony case (duct tape). So, that was insensitive, I guess. What else? I’m asking, earnestly.
Gin & Tonic
A shrieking harpy on TV who has talked about nothing but this case for 3 years now, and convicted the defendant on day 1. Her reason for existence has been taken away. I wish this meant the end of her TV career, but it won’t.
Comrade Luke
We haven’t had a new post in forever though. Cracks me up how we can go for hours with no new posts, then five people post within five minutes of each other.
Elie
I think that Casey Anthony was acquitted, not found innocent. I am not a lawyer but my understanding is that the acquittal reflects poor evidence or incomplete evidence to convict or judge innocence.
kay:
The central healthcare war that is going to take place is to get providers to ultimately accept getting paid less without shifting negative care or other risk onto their patients or payers. Talk about going into the cave with the dragon! This is a very similar dragon to the financial industry and trying to control it has been a complete failure. This will not be finished in my lifetime. Uwe Reinhardt from Yale asked the question of how much do we owe docs and other providers in terms of lifestyle and compensation to receive decent care? Obviously, they still behave as though they are endlessly entitled to increases while everyone else has to tighten their belts and do more with less.
murbella
umm…who cares?
sometimes i go over to Patterico just to see a thousand comment thread on Wienergate conspiracy theories.
those ppl are crazipants, amiright?
Comrade Luke
Are you kidding? She’ll be doing the same thing wrt another case by the end of the week.
Oh, that’s not really fair of me – this is a holiday week.
Next week.
:)
Martin
It’s also the only one that’s been sitting there for nearly 3 hours without a follower. This place has the attention span of a goldfish.
General Stuck
She hosts a CNN show called The Psycho Witch From Hell Hour
Gin & Tonic
I actually served on a jury 10-12 years ago on a case that boiled down to something pretty close to this. Kid was playing in the back yard and suffered an injury. It took very little time to decide that sometimes kids do dumb or unfortunate things and injure themselves, and there is nobody to blame.
One of those losers who followed the Casey Anthony trial
ABL, I do wonder why FL did not go for a lesser charge, considering the lack of forensic evidence in this case.
Cris
But again, we’re not really talking about Casey Anthony or the trial in any precise sense. We’re talking about media obsessions, public reactions, trial by jury and the public tendency to backseat drive the same, and a tweet by some douchebag about some celebrity. It’s so meta, even this acronym.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
What did OJ Simpson say to Johnny Cochran after the verdict was read? – “Just let me grab my cap and gloves and I’ll meet you at the door.”
One of those losers who followed the Casey Anthony trial
Haven’t seen Nancy Grace today but Vinnie Politan is going to pass his spleen here in a minute.
Mnemosyne
@ ABL
I modified the pie filter so UCT mostly talks about cupcakes. It eases the pain.
Corner Stone
@Elie
Lolwhut?
AxelFoley
@Martin:
Are you kidding me? Missing white woman case. And in this situation THE missing white woman of all missing white women. The woman who put missing white women on the map.
This would make Casey Anthony look like old news.
Calouste
@kay:
Funny how Republicans campaign on things like improving efficiencies, but in the end screwing people over is actually the result they want.
kay
I think so, too. It has to come from somewhere, and people (patients) are tapped out. That leaves providers getting better at providing quality care less expensively, or providers themselves taking a hit, in which case they’ll get better at providing quality care less expensively :)
One thing I’ve been following is California moving aggressively to expand what allied providers (non-physicians) can do. Ohio is following.
I feel as if that was inevitable. States need someone to provide basic care affordably. If physicians won’t bend on compensation, and won’t bend on allowing more physicians, (if they continue to restrict supply) states are going to look to other allied professions to provide (basic) care, by expanding licensing. They just are. They don’t have any choice.
We’re going to get there one way or another, because this isn’t working.
I know the two professions aren’t comparable, but I still think the comparison holds. I get paid by the county for a certain portion of my (indigent) work. I cannot go back to the county every year and say I need more money. They’d laugh. They’d tell me to provide the same service cheaper, and we’ve actually done that (to a certain extent). We had to. We got better at it.
Slowbama
Interesting, all of you who A) admit you know little/nothing about the case and B) have harsh words for anyone who thinks Anthony should have been found guilty. If you know nothing about the case, why is your support for the verdict any more sound than anyone else’s take on the verdict.
The tell is when someone says “there was no evidence” and/or “it was just innuendo.” ANYONE who has followed this case even tangentially knows there was a lot of evidence tying her to the death.
The problem is today’s jurors/citizens are no longer capable of critical thinking. If there’s no video and/or DNA they believe they cannot convict, i.e., the flip side of ‘zero tolerance’ bureaucracy.
The Other Chuck
Every time I hear the name Kardashian, I imagine her as one of the former occupants of Deep Space Nine.
One of those losers
Slowbama: I think you have a point and I wondered about that in this particular case. You had an overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence but the physical, the forensic evidence, was lacking. As a juror you have to weigh the two, and their minds were not infected by the media coverage on this case. I am very interested to hear from the jurors and their thought processes during the trial and deliberation.
ABL
“a lot of evidence tying her to the death” isn’t “guilty of first degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt.”
“a lot of evidence tying her to the death” might be enough for a preponderance standard in a civil trial.
Cris
@The Other Chuck: There are four lights!
murican
@120: You’re telling me to stop criticizing those who were on the jury when you write the stuff you write @111? What I wrote was in response to maus’ comment to my response to Martha, who wrote she was not paying attention, to which I responded, “Neither was the jury.”
@136:”It’s not even so much appeal to false authority as you’re offering nothing but “SHUT UP I AM A LAWYER”. You sure are shitty at discussing anything for someone with a JD.Fuck, I spent 27 years in Florida but I still roll my eyes at anyone who says “HURF DURF THAT’S FLORIDA FOR YOU” as if the whole was Glenn Beckville.”
Give it a few days until the jurors who choose to get fifteen minutes of fame get a chance to reveal how they found her not guilty of first degree murder, aggravated child abuse and manslaughter. You’ll probably be onto other things by then.
But I’ll pay attention and I am pretty sure my opinion will still be that they were not paying attention.
Top-notch, and when I say top-notch, I mean top-notch, States Attorneys v. a five year practitioner, who to his credit somehow was able to get in everything except the kitchen sink to create confusion which can be fashioned into a “reasonable doubt” argument to the jury. The sex abuse allegations v. the father or brother, or both, show that Jose and Casey were “all-in” to do every last thing possible to avoid getting convicted on the big-time charges and they did.
This is what I would imagine a sample of the short deliberations for this capital case may have sounded like today and it goes a little something like this:
“I’m confused. How did she drown in pool with duct tape on her mouth. Is there anything to eat? Baliff! I’m don’t know. Who proved the duct tape was there when she drowned? Not me. The dad had duct tape didn’t he? He’s a retired NY detective. I’m confused too. Doesn’t Jose have nice suits? How does the mother know what a dead body smells like? Maybe she did it. It was garbage, it couldn’t have been teh kid. What about the brother and dad? They don’t seem like they support Casey.Because she partys too much? How come the guy States Attorney laughs at Jose? That’s not fair. Did anybody see her put duct tape on the kid? Accidents happen. How come Casey didn’t call after the accident? There’s no law that says she should. I think there is a law that says she should. Good Samaritan law, I think. No, they you get called as a witness by a PI lawyer and get subpoenaed for depo and trial. Not as bad as what we’ve had to go through here, but still bad. What do you know? Did the State prove it. No. There were no eyewitnesses. Not even to the drowning? No, not even to the drowning. Get his thing over with! So let’s gig her for the false information of counts 4-7, acquit her on teh first degree murder, aggravated child abuse and manslaughter and get out of here. They don’t pay jurors enough in Florida anyway. Do we get mileage, too? I heard the low jury pay was because of Rick Scott. No, it was low before he moved to Florida. When she gets out on the false information charges, she won’t have to find the real killers like OJ because it was an accident. That’s cool. Why won’t they just give her probation. Who said it was an accident? For the last time, Jose. But that was argument, not testimony. What? I thought the lawyers were under oath. No. Why? Because they’re lawyers, that’s why. Why doesn’t the woman States Attorney go to a better colorist. Do you think she dyes her own hair? What’s for lunch? Why does the judge have trouble pronouncing words? Did anybody see Casey kill her kid? Okay. That takes care of it. Let’s get back home.”
And last but not least, they had sympathy for her because she lost her daughter.
Sometimes you just get lucky. He did and so did Casey.
Of course, that’s just my opinion. I wasn’t there and neither were you but I have been a juror in a non-capital criminal case so I’ve got a pretty good idea of the logic and reasoning that goes on inside a jury room.
General Stuck
I just watched the video of her court verdict being read, and it had a “not guilty” verdict for “aggravated Manslaughter” along with the murder 1 not guilty verdict
kc
@Gin and Tonic @ 156
I simply can’t understand how anyone can tolerate watching her, even ironically or in some “meta” way. My remote can’t switch away fast enough if I happen to stumble across her.
Sometimes I pause on her and watch for a few moments, in fascinated horror. I can only take a minute or two at a time.
ABL
what little i do know about the case makes me wonder the same thing. first degree requires specific intent — premeditation/deliberation. this was also a death penalty case. from what i’ve read, it doesn’t sound to me like the jury came to the wrong conclusion. i also wouldn’t be surprised if individual jurors believe that she was involved in some respect.
but first degree? death penalty? that’s rough.
Keith G
@cris
You don’t know our eemom, do you?
ABL
is aggravated manslaughter some sort of felony murder? i’ll have to look it up.
ShadeTail
Until I saw this article, I had never even heard of Casey Anthony.
I now consider myself a very lucky person.
kc
I wasn’t there and neither were you but I have been a juror in a non-capital criminal case so I’ve got a pretty good idea of the logic and reasoning that goes on inside a jury room.
Yeah, well, you have no idea of the deliberations that went on this jury room.
Dennis SGMM
Not watching TV has left me completely out of touch. I don’t know who Casey Anthony is and I’ve never heard of Nancy Grace before this thread. From the comments above, ignorance seems to be bliss this time.
MattMinus
Am I the only one who saw “via the Awl” at the end of the post and thought “Waitaminute! Now there’s an Angry White Lady too?!?!”
murican
@190: Acquittal on first degree murder, aggravated child abuse and manslaughter. So the State missed conviction on the two LIO’s. Convicted of counts 4-7 of giving false information to law enforcement. Max penalty of 1 year imprisonment for each count.
kc
You lucky bastard . . .
One of those losers
I watch a little Nancy Grace now and then to see how much I can stand. It’s good practice for dealing with wingnuts.
murican
@194: Yeah, well, neither do you.
JPL
IMO..most jurors walked in and probably walked out thinking she was guilty of something but as the NYTIMES wrote
That was the case and the jury did their job. I will say I am so glad that I have never served on a jury of this nature. You are damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
Lojasmo
@Martin #124
First and last time my son told me he didn’t love me, I told him I didn’t care.
Put an end to that nonsense, right quick.
MattR
murican –
Obviously you being an asshole to a bunch of citizens doing their civic duty because you don’t like the verdict they reached is exactly the same as me being an asshole to you in response.
murican –
How is this remotely relevant to the comment that kc made (which made absolutely no attempt to divine what went on during deliberations)?
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@ ABL
Or it might not even meet that standard. I’ll copy what I wrote on another board, when directly asked for my opinion:
I’m going to offer what I suspect will be a very unpopular opinion also: that this case is an example of the system working as it should. There is clear evidence that Casey Anthony lied to the police in the course of this investigation, and she was found guilty of that. I did not attend the trial, nor have I read transcripts, but I will suggest to you that there was not clear evidence presented that she killed her daughter. Lots of emotional appeal based on her behavior, and lots of speculation about how she might have done so, but no concrete evidence of homicide on her part. A great deal of circumstantial evidence that was subject to interpretation, I suspect. And interpretation in multiple ways perhaps. Thus the verdict of not guilty.
Please remember that what is presented in the media and what is presented in court may be quite different, due to rules of criminal procedure that are designed to protect the defendant. Yes, by design, so that unpopular people cannot be wrongfully convicted. Guilty verdicts should be based on evidence, lawfully collected, not emotion or “who else could have/would have.” Sometimes, even when we believe that certainly someone did it, there isn’t enough evidence to convict. We want convicting people to be difficult.
I firmly would rather see a decades worth of guilty defendants go unconvicted than a single innocent person found guilty. It happens, sadly, daily. If you think it doesn’t happen, google “Todd Willingham Texas arson” and read about an execution based on emotion rather than reliable evidence.
As I mentioned, I don’t know what the jury heard, but emotions aside, it seemed to me based on what I read that the evidence supported the convictions. Period.
And Another Thing...
#125 BruinKid – I just spit chocolate chip cookie all over my monitor. That’s.Just.Brilliant !
tkogrumpy
REMIND ME, who the fug is Casey Anthony, and why should I give a fug.
JPL
OMG>>>I just put on ABC world news and they are beyond themselves with grief about the verdict. WTF..there was no evidence… At least I don’t have cable and 24/7 news.
eemom
@ Cris
I guess I misspoke. I really meant statements along the lines of “who the fuck cares about this,” like it’s a matter for indifference that a child was murdered.
@ Keith
Glad you “know” me so well. Who the fuck are you?
also too, your statement about one child murder being “much more awful” than another is also kind of what I had in mind.
ShadeTail
murican:
The difference, of course, being that kc isn’t claiming to know better despite that ignorance.
One of those losers
I think if I had watched the Anthonys testify over and over, as a juror, I’d be so confused I would feel like I did not have enough information to convict her of anything.
murican
@202: You and maybe a couple of others here today are the only ones accusing me of being an asshole and that would really hurt if it meant anything. No one can ever misunderestimate the intelligence of those who want out-of-town jury duty or of those who call people assholes. You wanted a response. I gave you a response. You call me an asshole. Nice work on your part.
eemom
like I said, I really haven’t been following this, but now I’m wondering: what WAS the defense theory of how the child died?
How could there not be physical evidence if it happened the way the prosecution described? Did the defense claim that someone else did it?
MattR
murican – If it makes you feel better, I think all people who disparage the work of individual juries based on generalizations are assholes.
eemom – IIRC, the defense theory was that the child died in an accident at the pool and that the family covered it up. In opening arguments they alluded to the idea that Casey’s father was behind that decision and that she acquiesced because she was terrified of him due to years of sexual abuse, but they never really followed up on that particular line.
One of those losers
Defense claimed she drowned in the swimming pool in the grandparents’ backyard, and Casey’s dad, with Casey’s cooperation, covered it up by burying her; defense also claimed Casey had been sexually abused/terrorized by dad but never presented any evidence to that effect
L2P
Or it was a different set of jurors. Or it is, but enough of the jurors didn’t listen to that one thing the defense really cared about. Or the jury instructions were in the morning instead of the afternoon. Or on a Friday. Or a Monday. Or give Anthony a different race and some tattoos.
Go American Justice!
WereBear
Apparently the weight of the evidence leaned towards the child actually having drowned in the family swimming pool. This is a tragedy that nonetheless happens all the time; in this case, they did not report it as an accident.
There was some serious flakiness (abuse and incest were alluded to and neither proved nor disproved) in the family and they must have been extremely negligent and worried about getting in trouble because of it. Then they threw the body in a swamp and went about their business.
So when the police asked where the child was, the mother lied, and so no wonder the investigation focused on her like a laser beam; guilt must have been written on her in foot high letters, but they drew incorrect conclusions from it.
Twisted, most certainly. But not murder.
Keith G
@eemom
xoxo’s
murican
@210: I was just kidding the guy. I think I’m right. He thinks he’s right. So what?
@211: That’s exactly what Jose counted on with his jury.
eemom
Thanks y’all, but I still don’t get it. Didn’t the autopsy show if it was a drowning or not? Or was it too late by the time the body was found?
maus
@187: That sure is a long post for someone who wasn’t paying attention to the case and offers no actual insight because he didn’t pay attention to the case until Nancy Grace awoke him to the grievous injustice of it all.
murican
@214: You’re entitled to your opinion even though I disagree with you. I don’t come around here often but this sure seems like a friendly little place.
One of those losers
eemom: her body had decomposed to bones and had been scattered by animals, there was no evidence as to cause of death, there were no fractures or signs of injury on the skeleton or skull that i know of, which is all they had to go on, i think they even tested the bone marrow.
licensed to kill time
@eemom
The body was skeletonized by the time they found it and the Medical Examiner (the famous Dr. G!) could not determine the cause of death. This, to me, was a huge weakness in the prosecution’s case.
One of those losers
licensed to kill time: indeed and i also think the testimony of the Anthony family would have confused the jury as to exactly what happened and who was involved
MattR
murican –
Heh. You really don’t come around here much :)
tkogrumpy
@ 148 gin and tonic, It may be an obvious question to you, but it is a question you should never have verbalized, and I can’t believe your stupid enough to not know it.
licensed to kill time
@one of those losers
I think it was a very tough case to prove ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ on several levels, regardless of my personal feeling that she was culpable in some way.
I just heard an alternate juror interviewed on the teevee machine and he sounded remarkably like the ‘what it might have sounded like in the jury room’ scenario offered by murican at #188.
(btw, your original screen name made me laugh out loud!)
Odie Hugh Manatee
I had to explain to our son that, at the very moment we were talking, there were thousands of people standing in front of a judge/jury. I explained that out of all of the cases out there, this one was somehow seized on by the ‘news’ (I included the ‘air quotes’ on that word so our son would understand the sarcasm intended) as ‘newsworthy’ (again, another set of air quotes). That once the press takes up a narrative, the verdict is pretty much a foregone conclusion.
Guilty. Look at that animal Nancy Grace on CNN, for a good example of pre-ordained guilt. It’s as if she has a personal stake in the outcome. The trash spewing from her mouth reveals a person who hasn’t met an innocent accused. I told him that it was a pleasure to tune in and watch her lose her shit today. The woman is one nasty bitch and I’m glad that she’s a former prosecutor. The people she represented probably breathed a sigh of relief when she left.
I had to explain this to him because he’s 16 and he needs to understand it. That and he couldn’t give a shit about it and hasn’t tuned into it other than he heard her name and the crime she was accused of at some time. In one ear, noted, and out the other. He’s politically aware and knows the people and personalities involved. I’ve made sure of that. But he understands that “fluff” like this story is nothing but a distraction from what is happening in our country and the rest of the world.
He has learned what is important and has learned to tune out what is the bullshit. Still, I wanted him to understand why the media do what they do. The eyeballs and the money that goes with it. Sensationalism pays and our M$M engages in it daily as if it’s real news. They have to top each other in an attempt to fight their way to the top of the ratings and make more money.
Our son listened and agreed, saying that he’s become very selective in what he considers something resembling news and tuning out the crap that isn’t important. He still catches the initial stuff he sees (it’s almost impossible to avoid when the shit first hits the fan) but if it’s “fluff” he quickly tunes it out.
His sister is the same way. Bullshit doesn’t interest her when there are more important things that we all have to be worried about.
My wife and I have done a good job.
JPL
Why didn’t the prosecution go after a plea deal early on? The evidence was scanty and although I would have liked her to rot in jail, I am not sure I could have found her guilty. Did she duct tape her child’s mouth, did she use chloroform, or did she hide her body? There was no evidence to that.
Beth
If Anthony was convicted on the evidence the prosecution presented, we’d all be in trouble. A video of the girl’s picture dissolving into a skull with duct tape around it, not found at the scene, but mocked up by the prosecution for effect is not evidence, but theater, and should not have been allowed.
murican
@220: “offers no actual insight because he didn’t pay attention to the case until Nancy Grace awoke him to the grievous injustice of it all.”
Wrong again, maus. Keep trying, maybe you’ll get one right some time because even if I don’t have a high opinion of you, and I don’t, don’t let that stop you from having a high opinion of yourself. You’re good enough, you’re sma…never mind.
Sounds like you’re the one with a fixation on Nancy Grace. You can’t stop talking about her. This will be a big disappointment to you but I only connect my satellite television during college football season. Even then I don’t watch Nancy Grace or others. Olbermann and Maddow, sure because somebody’s got to try to deliver the message. I don’t use an iPhone. Don’t watch television on computer at my office or at home.
One of those losers
Here’s Nancy Grace on the teevee machine right now! “The Devil is dancing tonight!” She just said that!
murican
@228:”I just heard an alternate juror interviewed on the teevee machine and he sounded remarkably like the ‘what it might have sounded like in the jury room’ scenario offered by murican at #188.
(btw, your original screen name made me laugh out loud!)”
Thank you. Thank you very much!
I started using it after our former Dear Leader W. went to a park in BOTSWANA but then as others here would probably say to me, WTF do you know about a park in Botswana, you have no actual insight because you’ve never been there.
One of those losers
I hope for her husband’s sake there is some valium (or a tranquilizer dart) in the nightstand
licensed to kill time
@murican I like your name, too, but I was actually talking about ‘one of those losers who followed the Casey Anthony trial’ (the last bit has been dropped now, perhaps for length).
But your jury room scenario was funny enough that I read it out loud to the spousal unit. Funny in a sad but true kind of way.
(Man, this no reply button thing is a bummer. Takes ages to get a comment done. WHEN IS IT GOING TO BE FIXED JOHN COLE?!)
BJ, a friendly little place!
Slowbama
It is truly disturbing how many people, here and elsewhere, are saying, “I believe she was guilty but the prosecution didn’t prove its case.”
If you believe she’s guilty, then the prosecution DID prove its case. The mass critical thinking FAIL on this point is nearly apocalyptic in its ramifications for the future.
Contrary to widespread popular belief, the standard is not beyond *mathematical* doubt, it’s reasonable doubt. This is what happens when people watch too much TV and try to make reality conform to what they’ve seen on the tube.
One of those losers
omigod, she just got done trashing the jury, she is tweaking out
Ron
@JPL : Exactly this. I didn’t follow the case, but there’s a lot of stuff that makes me think she probably did it, but I can’t say I could have voted to convict based on “beyond a reasonable doubt”
MattR
Slowbama – I completely disagree. First off, we can base our belief on facts that were not introduced as evidence. But more importantly, I think you can believe something to be true while still having reasonable doubts about whether or not it is actually true. I think many of the people who believe she is guilty are really saying that it is more likely that she did it than that she didn’t and that is much lower than what the standard for guilt should be.
OzoneR
believe and certainty are two different things. I believe she is guilty, I cannot prove it, no one has proven it to me, so I am not certain of it.
If you’re not certain, you do not convict.
My father was on a case where a man had an illegal gun. He believed whoheartedly that the man owned the gun, it was pretty clear to him, but his suspicion did not come from anything the prosecutors put forward. For example, prosecutors had submitted evidence he had bought the gun, but the judge threw it out because it was illegally obtained. He acquitted based on the prosecution’s case being unconvincing despite the fact he knew he was guilty because the only evidence that proved it was inadmissible.
Brachiator
@eemom
One important thing here. Although the defense offered a theory, it was more to rebut the prosecution and to help the jury see reasonable doubt.
But the defense is not obligated to offer a theory or explanation. Nor, strictly speaking is the prosecution if the evidence convincingly demonstrates that the accused committed the crime. The why or motive is sometimes irrelevant, especially if the charge is not first degree murder. Involuntary manslaughter, for example, does not require motive or intent.
By the way, the jackass talk radio host I mentioned in an earlier post said that the jury might have decided differently had Casey taken the stand and been asked how she thought her daughter died.
This is absurd. The accused is not required to take the stand, nor is he or she required to explain how a crime might have occurred. The whole point of a not guilty plea and the point of the trial is that the prosecution has the entire burden of proof to demonstrate that the accused committed the crime.
This also means that the accused is not guilty unless the prosecution proves its case. Period. There is generally no point in someone saying that a person has been found not guilty but is not necessarily innocent.
The default condition of a defendant is not guilty, unless the prosecution can prove otherwise.
licensed to kill time
@slowbama
Well, I thought she had some culpability before the trial, so I’m not basing my opinion (and that’s all it is) on the prosecution’s case.
My theory is that she was possibly drugging the kid so she would sleep while she went out partying, came back and found her dead, panicked and put the kid in the trunk (or maybe she was in the trunk already, I have heard of a case where that was done while the parents were drinking in a bar) and then spun this whole Zanny/nanny scenario to buy some time.
Of course, I have no proof of any of that. But I would more likely have convicted her of involuntary manslaughter if I was on the jury. Which I was not.
Speculation, it’s what’s for dinner!
OzoneR
OH GOOD CHRIST
Don’t these idiots know the defense would have objected to that line of questioning and the judge would’ve sustained it on grounds that is calls for a conclusion
Do we need to require everyone go to law school?
Ron
@Slowbama : “I believe she’s guilty” is not “I believe that it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.” I believe it’s quite likely she’s guilty because her actions are truly bizarre for someone who is innocent. But weird actions would not be enough for me to convict anyone.
Brachiator
Nope. They have no idea. They also don’t know that a defendant in a criminal trial cannot be compelled to take the stand or to testify against himself or herself.
These nimrods have some weird idea that there should be some kind of trial by ordeal in which a defendant has to prove innocence or help the prosecution prove its case.
Of course, no defense attorney worth his or her salt would ever let a client take the stand and testify.
OzoneR
Like I said before, if Americans really knew how their judicial system worked, they’d dump it in a second for something more Iranian.
Let this be a lesson to all you out there who think America would cheer torture prosecutions and civilian terrorist trials.
Admiral_Komack
“Nancy Grace always scares the shit out of me. Something about that woman and her unhinged rage just gives me the heebies.”
To me, she always looks as if she was going to take a humongous shit…all the time.
Brachiator
There is no contradiction here at all. If you were not on the jury, your belief about the accused’s guilt is interesting, but meaningless. Observers had access to information and opinion that the jury never heard or saw.
That the jury apparently did not believe that the prosecution proved its case is a statement of fact independent of what you believe about the defendant.
Jon H
FYI: the sex abuse argument was disallowed by the judge.
murbella
well…if you wanna see some “brights” having 1000+ comment thread fullfrontal meltdowns and Richard Dawkins first unmistakable foray into senile dementia, check out bad astronomy and pharyngula.
its a mad world, ABL.
El Cid
__
That is, those of them who think there ought actually be trials.
Suffern ACE
@150 Brach –
I don’t know enough to comment here, but jeez. They couldn’t prove first degree murder. The prosecution might have been able to prove something else, but apparently the jury didn’t buy first degree murder. Negligence is a different charge altogether. If the radio jerk wants to prosecute an adult for first degree murder every time a child dies, we will be building special parental prisons in short order.
Jon H
I think one thing that might have influenced the jury was the defense’s pointing out that Casey anthony’s father is an ex-cop, which could help explain the lack of evidence on the body, whereas his daughter was barely competent at simple life skills.
Admiral_Komack
The Other Chuck:
July 5th, 2011 at 6:37 pm
“Every time I hear the name Kardashian, I imagine her as one of the former occupants of Deep Space Nine.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Good one, sir!
murbella
tokio hotel version
donnie darko version
its all Mad.
maus
@251: I think that the situation’s being handled with grace by everybody but Dawkins. There are always a few fool commenters at Pharyngula, but they prune them pretty quickly.
murbella
maus, dude …
PZ shut the thread down at 1400+ comments.
bad astronomy is still going.
jump in.
;)
Liberty60
No joke, I have become convinced that we are not so very far at a remove from the Medieval ways of trial by fire, or water purification, that stuff that Steve martin parodied on SNL.
I honestly think that oh, roughly, say, 27% of the country would happily exchange jury trials for a trial of a learned-sounding judge (or a Madame Defarge with cold dark eyes) who assayed guilt or innocence by consultation with power crystals and Baby Jeebus.
maus
Oh boy, I mean the regular readers, not the Dawkins-fanboy and Christian fundamentalist troll lurkers.
It’s 95% awesome arguing with a dedicated few trolls with an unlimited amount of time to waste.
AxelFoley
@Admiral_Komack :
Which is funny because women don’t shit or fart. Only thing that comes out of their tushies is the smell of roses and sweet nectar.
OGLiberal
Lack of forensic evidence.
Family has always been less than truthful. When the defense offered an alternative theory that had the parents covering up an accident, it’s not unreasonable for a jury to question their honesty when they say that’s not what happened.
No witnesses.
No evidence of previous abuse.
That said, I think the pool story is pure bullshit. Casey was giving the girl Xanaxx – hence the “she’s with (non-existent nanny) Zanny” comments she made to friends prior to the girl’s death. She gave her too much and killed her. Then she put the girl in the trunk while she tried to figure out what to do. Either she came up with the duct tape and chloroform idea to cover up the “accident” or her mom and dad helped her. At some point the authorities had to be notified…that was left to the parents. The defense story about abuse and cover up by the parents and the pool nonsense was probably sanctioned by the parents as well as Casey, because the parents a) didn’t want to see their daughter go to jail for an “accidental death” (due to negligence…not exactly “not guilty” but, in their eyes, not murder0 and b) felt guilty because they forced Casey to keep a child she did not want (she wanted to abort and/or place the child with adoptive parents but her folks apparently nixed both ideas) and then forced Casey to be a parent, something she clearly did not want to be at this point in her life. This is an effed up family filled with (likely) sociopaths and I wouldn’t be surprised if Casey actually intentionally killed her daughter. But that’s all theory and there’s very little har evidence to back it up outside of hunches, conjecture, supposition upon supposition, and “well, duh, she must have done it!” I don’t think the jury screwed up much here – there was enough “reasonable doubt” to make them hesitant to sentence this woman to death. I don’t know if the prosecutor screwed up evidence and the case a la the OJ trial, but they probably should have went for a lesser charge that would have put Casey in jail for about 15-years via a plea bargain. They went all in and paid for it.
And yes, I’m ashamed I know this much about the case.
Slowbama
The comments here prove my theory that those heavily involved in blogging/social media are more likely to demand CSI-style ironclad DNA evidence, like what they’ve seen on the teevee since their formative days. They’re also more likely to be influenced by celebrity culture, however loathe they might be to admit it.
The fact that so many of you, probably the vast majority, identify with this easily manipulated, celebrity-influenced, TV-trained jury is disturbing.
If Casey Anthony is not made a celebrity by the media coverage of the trial, she probably is convicted like any of you would be by the exact same circumstantial evidence.
We love celebrities of all colors, genders and types and will do most anything to curry favor with them, even subconsciously.
4jkb4ia
I have noticed the sign of the apocalypse. At nytimes.com, four stories down in the middle column, there is a story, “Watching A Trial On TV, Discussing It On Twitter”, about this case. The NYT has utterly ignored this entire story except when Nancy Grace is the ostensible subject.
Shade Tail
Slowbama:
So because people, both here at BJ and on the jury, insist that the prosecution needed to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, that means they’re being influenced by celebrity worship.
That is the dumbest thing I’ve seen all day. And that’s a rather high bar to clear, because I’ve seen a lot of dumb things in the last 24 hours.
4jkb4ia
@251:
Oh, my goodness. This has already not ended well.
eemom
well, that’s one thing at least that seems to have been proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
Admiral_Komack
“The comments here prove my theory that those heavily involved in blogging/social media are more likely to demand CSI-style ironclad DNA evidence, like what they’ve seen on the teevee since their formative days.”
What’s this trial lasting four weeks shit?
Solve it in an hour, damnit!
min
The press have had her convicted from the beginning, based entirely on circumstantial evidence – basically behavior after her daughter’s death they considered scandalous and her dishonesty. Okay, not a nice person and quite possibly guilty, but the prosecution couldn’t even show the girl’s cause of death. The prosecution had no concrete evidence the mother did it. It seems to me the justice system worked correctly here. They shouldn’t have gone to trial with the case they had. And, by the way, the mother has spent time in jail, and is likely to be hounded the rest of her life, so no one can say she got off entirely free.
FlipYrWhig
If you don’t like what juries do, make yourself available as a juror.
Brachiator
I heard about this and saw a bit of the furor from comments at the Skepchick blog. I had no idea that it had turned into a pitched battle. But I am not surprised.
And it did remind me of some of the crazier responses to an ABL post.
It’s almost as wild as some of the reactions and counter reactions to Apple’s release of a craptastic update to Final Cut Pro.
murbella
yes Brach.
what do Casey Anthony and the Dawkins/Rebecca Watson creeper-guy-in-the-elevator blogstorms have in common? SEX
the Apple blogstorm doesnt have that.
WereBear
She was convicted of FOUR counts of lying and hiding evidence; that’s pretty clear and the jury convicted.
Now it’s up to the judge; which is how our system works.
I wasn’t clear in my comment above that “this was the defense case that the jury seemed to buy” so I’m noting it here.
Rorgg
Been called to jury duty twice.
Two murder trials, seated both times. The second time, foreman.
Five convictions.
Do I get to bitch?
Grumpy Code Monkey
murican:
Just so I’m clear, you had first-hand knowledge of the facts in this case?
If not, then your 30 years’ experience (PI? Corporate? Criminal defense? Prosecutor?) doesn’t give your opinion any more weight than anyone else’s in this thread.
If the prosecution had a case, then they clearly biffed it. Based on the little I’ve read about the case, it sounds like they were relying too heavily on appeals to emotion and not hard fact, which implies to me that they knew their case was weak.
Jill
But only Johnnie Cochran is part of the Spooky Mormon Hell Dream:
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=meXl7C8f6MQ
Mike Davis
FYI… Kim Kardashians father, Robert, did NOT represent OJ in his criminal trial. He was OJ’s personal attorney who came out and said he believed OJ was guilty.