I am in England for work this week, so probably won’t be posting much. I have a question about British politics. What was the deal with the fox hunting ban? Is hunting foxes so much worse than the way people usually kill animals? Was it just Labour payback at rural Tories for all the shit Thatcher did to Labour constituencies in the 80s?
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Jack Bauer
It is a worse way of killing animals. Being torn to shreds by a pack of hounds is no way to go. Any ban on animal cruelty always has popular support in the UK. Would you ask the same question of bullfighting?
Tom Traubert
Yes, it’s a whole lot worse. The dogs tear the thing to pieces when they finally catch up with it.
PopeRatzy
Foxes == cute
British Aristocracy and Ruling Class == butt ugly
You do the math.
gogol's wife
Somebody just has to quote Oscar Wilde here — “the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible.”
Lee
I’d give Doug the benefit of the doubt, very few people know that foxes meet their demise by being torn apart.
When I heard that I was 100% behind the ban and I support hunting in the US.
flukebucket
So, a group of me dress funny and ride horses behind a pack of dogs that are chasing a fox. The dogs catch and kill the fox and the men call themselves hunters. Is that about it in a nutshell?
drkrick
@flukebucket:Interesting – about the same relationship to the actual task that our Galtian overlords have here.
gnomedad
@gogol’s wife:
Campaign slogan for Herman Cain?
Tom Levenson
FWIW — the ban is on hunting foxes. It’s not against riding around in funny suits. The hunts therefore continue, and “incidental” fox deaths occur.
I recommend to everyone they check out Siegfried Sassoon’s exceptional memoir series of his life before and during WW I. It begins with Memoirs of a Fox-Hunting Man. It ends with an account of the experience that became the basis for Pat Barker’s Regeneration. Just an amazing account.
Finally, what I hope does not follow on the fox hunting ban is one on bird shooting. Too many braised pheasants prepared by my aunt delightfully devoured to wish to see the end of that blood sport.
Chris
@PopeRatzy:
Yeah. I hadn’t heard about this before now, but it sounds like a way to stick it to a stereotypical aristocratic activity, while winning brownie points for saving cute furry little animal. (The fox has been the good guy in those hunts since Mary Poppins at least).
Ghanima Atreides
@ DougJ
Oh bulshytt.
None of the commenters here have ever foxhunted.
The hounds roll over the fox like surf, and break his neck. Its instant.
Any tearing is post mortem.
The Hunt was a way to rid the countryside of vermin as sport, and involved work and profit for all classes. The Hunt was a whole industry, with breeders, terriermen, hunt servants, breeding hounds and bloodstock horses, followers, tourism, etc.
Blair trying to end the Hunt was a town vs country conflict.
He did it for city-people votes.
I dont know the state of the Hunt in England, but I have friends in Ireland, and presumeably the law is the same. You can hunt in Ireland if you own ground, and your “friends” can hunt with you. So they get around it.
I have hunted on the front range. Heres something i wrote about it.
EIGRP
Maybe England has run out of hotties?
Wait, what? You mean foxes like animals??!
Eric
Barney
There is a lot of class attitudes involved in it – blood sports such as badger-baiting and dog fighting were banned a long time ago, but they were seen as ‘working class’, and the hunt, which is intimately tied up with rural landownership, survived (though it should be said that hare coursing, in which dogs chase and kill a hare, was a pretty class-free sport that was only banned at the same time as hunting with hounds).
Basically, it’s the same as dog fighting – you breed dogs for the purpose of violently killing a mammal. It has the excuse that a fox is also a rural pest, that can kill chickens (as violently as the dogs kill it). Despite the pest control aspect, hunts were sometimes caught raising foxes so that they’d have plenty to kill in the future months.
WereBear
“Fun” that ends with something dead after a great deal of torment. (Try being chased for hours… the fox wears out, and is then killed.)
I live in a place where hunting is sacred; because ethical hunters take some pride in their stalking and sharpshooting; done right, the deer hasn’t a clue.
“Fox hunting” is not hunting; it’s just sick.
rickstersherpa
Short answer: Yes. Although a bit misguided as heart of Thatcherdom was the white collar working class and the City, the Leslie Titmuss’es of post-war Britain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Postponed
In Germany, the local farmers just shoot the foxes that become pests. I would still see plenty of foxes on my runs on late summer evenings looking down the vally of the Lahr north of Kaiserslautern. The Forestmeisters in Germany spent 20 years eradicating rabies in the Fox population by putting out rabie vacinne bait. Would we could do the same for the Foxes, raccoons, etc, in this country.
Linda Featheringill
@WereBear:
I fully agree with you. Try running for your life for hours and see how it feels.
And as for as foxes being pests and therefore anything you do is all right, what do you think the FSM would like to do about that horrible infestation of homo sapiens? A real drain on the earth’s resources. Very destructive.
Robert Sneddon
There was a big protest march in the UK a few years back, in part because of the planned ban on fox-hunting but generally about the lack of consideration the Blair government was giving to rural and countryside affairs. Four hundred thousand people[0] turned up from all over Britain and marched peacefully through the streets of London. To scale that up to American numbers, imagine over two million people assembling in Washington to protest about something.
[0] The organisers did actually count the marchers through a large gate, like herding sheep at a market. The figure is accurate, or at least a lot more accurate than most such estimates.
As for the pros and cons of fox-hunting, the current methods of fox population control are shooting (which results in a lot of wounded foxes), trapping (which results in foxes getting caught and escaping with festering leg wounds or being held in traps for hours or days before being dispatched), gassing of dens to kill the vixens and cubs and poison-baiting which is technically illegal but happens anyway, often picking off other predators like birds of prey as a bonus.
If a fox being hunted by hounds got away from the pack it usually got away clean, if exhausted. If it was caught it was dead within a second or two, any photogenic rending of the carcass done post-mortem. It was just squirm-inducing to the urban bunny-huggers and nobody in the countryside voted for Labour anyway.
Linda Featheringill
Although it is interesting that we’re having a “discussion” about fox hunting over here.
magurakurin
@Barney:
everything I know about coursing comes from this scene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rQiIF9Fun4
Ghanima Atreides
Blair and the Hunt ban is analogous to Bush and the ESCR ban.
Blair was just mustering a voting constituency, whether it was good for his country or not.
ChrisNYC
In addition to the killing and the long, terrifying chase, the whole thing starts with the fox *already* caught. It is caught, taken to the hunting ground and then released — to be terrified and chased and then torn to shreds. Just multiple levels of intentional cruelty.
Ghanima Atreides
@Linda Featheringill: tell me where you live and I’ll trap some foxes and prairie dogs for your lawn.
Do you have cats perchance?
Foxes love cats. They are very tasty.
Guster
Sounds a whole lot kinder than factory farming, even with run-to-exhaustion and ripped apart.
Ghanima Atreides
@ChrisNYC: that is total bulshytt. No one does that. There is no sport involved in that, and its more work than dragging (putting down a scent trail). I think that is against Hunt Association rules.
We do drag hunts or scent hunts a lot on the front range, because of cross fencing. But in the UK Hunt tradition has coops and gates in the fence line to allow the Hunt to follow.
In Ireland they do stag hunts that way, the carted stag. But the stags are never killed, just chased.
.
Amir_Khalid
@Ghanima Atreides:
Foxes are part of the natural ecosystem in Britain, and they have every right to life and limb. Maybe, to protect small livestock and pets from predation and disease, it is indeed necessary to control the wild fox population. In that case I’d support, albeit reluctantly, a controlled culling program carried out by a competent wildlife authority. But setting a pack of dogs to hunt down and kill a solitary fox, especially as a form of entertainment for humans, is inhumane and deserves to be prohibited — even if it is traditional.
Ghanima Atreides
You can see a microcosm meme war here DougJ.
I betcha the same people that abhor foxhunting support PETA and the ban on slaughtering horses in the US.
Retards.
All that happens is that killer horses either starve in the field or get trucked to Mexico in horrific conditions.
If we had a humane horse slaughter industry in this country we could have decent dogfood manufactured locally without Chinese poisons added.
I loathe clueless PETAites like Werebear and Linda Feathergill and Chris.
Do you know how long it takes a horse to starve to death.
I volunteer at a Horse Rescue society and in this economy its just horrific.
I hate you clueless fuckers worse than libertarians.
Ghanima Atreides
@Amir_Khalid: No, foxhunting is a part of english tradition and the english economy. Its profit and sport and part of symbiotic balance to keep the fox population in check.
You are a townie too.
/spit
that is what the Hunt is, you retard.
Linda Featheringill
@Ghanima Atreides:
My cats are indoor cats, not because of foxes but because of other dangers, mainly diseases and cruel people.
Ranchers on the prairies have found that prairie dogs are good for their pastures. They can grow richer crops of vegetation for their animals to graze on if the ranchers leave the little critters alone. Vets in the area have gone on record as saying they’ve never seen an incident of a cow with a broken leg from stepping in a prairie dog hole.
So your efforts probably wouldn’t have the effect you seek [my misery in the presence of animals you seem to fear]. You might as well save yourself the trouble and go do something else.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ghanima Atreides:
Are you going for 100% loathing of yourself here?
Steve
As a good liberal I am partial to the class argument. If the lower classes can’t have their casual cruelty (e.g. cockfighting), the moneyed classes shouldn’t get to have their fun either. Also too, rarely do you see a debate on this blog where both sides of the argument try so hard to be self-righteous and unlikable as in this thread.
TheMightyTrowel
@DougJ: I think you have your answer. One part of the British population is so fixated on the idea that an invigorating country ride can’t be any fun and won’t attract the right class of servents and cooks (… that IS the rural economy you’re on about, right?) unless something furry dies badly at the end that simply the idea that others (townies?) might find it distasteful stirs them up into a frothy rage of mixed metaphors, promiscuous insults and class antagonism. Based on the entertainment factor alone, it’s a win-win for the townies.
Linda Featheringill
@Ghanima Atreides:
Starving horses:
If food becomes really scarce, the birth rates will go down. Really hungry mammas don’t reproduce well. The population will shrink to match the available food.
As far as being caught and shipped off to Mexico in horrible conditions, you might have a point.
Are these horses really starving or is it that, like many wild animals, they’re just thinner than pampered pets?
Linda Featheringill
@Ghanima Atreides:
I’m flattered. Thank you. You shouldn’t have. :-)
Linda Featheringill
@Ghanima Atreides:
I am so slow! Doug, is that you?
Robert Sneddon
@Amir_Khalid: Britain doesn’t have a natural ecosystem. Every square inch is carefully managed by human beings and for human beings and has been for millenia.
Apart from human beings the fox is the apex ground predator in the UK after the last wolves were killed about three hundred years ago. Their numbers are only limited by disease, the availability of food and active management by humans (gassing, trapping, shooting, poisoning etc.)
There are no competent wildlife authorities who can cull foxes when they become a threat to young farm animals and poultry, there are just farmers with shotguns and gamekeepers with traps and poison. There used to be hunts with hounds but they’ve been done away with so less humane methods of culling the foxes are now used.
Julia Grey
I like this sort of argument. It’s very Doghouse Riley.
Ghanima Atreides
@Linda Featheringill:
I hate people like you so much.
It takes a long time for a horse to starve. These are not wild horses that can find grazing. These are horses penned up in dirt fields. They consume their own body organs.
They dont complain. They just stand out in a field and starve miserably. Or they eat sand and die of colic.
The trucks to mexico are packed. No food or water. And mexican kill factories are hardly humane.
People here have a heart for abandoned dogs, big whup, but you are fucking PETA assholes on horses.
jeff
@Ghanima Atreides:
Christ what an asshole.
Ghanima Atreides
@Linda Featheringill: prairie dogs are vectors for bubonic plague, and many horse have met their end from stepping in a prairie dog hole.
You may be the stupidest person I ever met.
Peter
@Ghanima Atreides: That’s an interesting rhetorical jump. And by ‘interesting’ I mean ‘completely insane’.
Ghanima Atreides
@jeff: why? I’m telling the truth.
A horse slaughter industry in the US would eliminate incredible pain and suffering. Linda is the asshole here. She doesn’t give a shit as long as it happens in Mexico.
eemom
so now, in a world where all kinds of animals suffer all kinds of horrible deaths all the time, we’re going to debate which one is “worse”?
Fuck. this. shit.
VAdem
It is actually possible to hunt foxes the way they are in Viginia and not kill them…
Tom in TN
@Ghanima Atreides:
If there is a need to kill a fox, you pull out a rifle and shoot it – or trap it and euthanize it. Chasing it until it drops from exhaustion is cruelty.
Your attempted false equivalencies are irrelevant. Fox hunting in and of itself is cruel, and remains cruel regardless of what other cruel things may happen in the world.
SpaceSquid
I think Barney got closest to the deal here: fox hunting is the last great blood sport. The working class variants were banned long ago, but this remained, and not, so far as I can tell, because of the strength of the “We’re getting rid of a rural pest!”
If people want to read class resentment or a “stick it to the toffos” mentality, then that’s probably not entirely false, but I think that kind of “class war” lens is better used in situations which don’t involve the idea that either something is OK or it isn’t, despite who your parents are.
Actually, come to think of it, isn’t it amazing how none of these full-throated defenders of fox hunting have missed the perfect solution: bring back badger baiting! After all, if we’re going to cull the little bastards for spreading TB to all our cattle, we may as well get some fun out of it.
someguy
Blair did it basically to stick it to the Tory voters, who deserved it.
Q: What’s the difference between a Tory voter, and a Republican voter?
A: Some of the Republican voters occasionally show signs of higher brain function. That, and they aren’t *openly* welcoming of neofascists.
Ghanima Atreides
@Peter: you dont think this is an incredibly stupid and heartless thing to say?
wallah, you people are retards.
Peter
@Ghanima Atreides: I do think that was a stupid thing to say. I also don’t think horse-starving was at all relevant to this thread in any way until you brought it up in what has to be the most out-there straw man argument I’ve ever seen.
Ghanima Atreides
@Tom in TN: foxhunting is an EVOLVED vermin control system, a traditional countryside arrangement.
It is a symbiotic economic relationship, an organic system.
What I see here is more jesushumping PETAloving american busybodies trying to tell the rest of the world how to behave.
PhoenixRising
Sorry about the jackass, but yeah, the horse situation is really dire. If you don’t know, keep it that way unless you want sad, scary nightmares. It really is that bad, although not all of us who are concerned have been driven off the edge like whats-his-face.
It’s nothing to do with the fox hunt, although having seen it done I dispute that it’s a cruel or particularly inhumane method of pest eradication. Compared to…? How many poisoned carcasses have you buried? Cats get poisoned, leaving kittens who starve to death or wander into traffic. There is no clean way to get predators out of a human-shaped landscape that does not require unpleasant death.
Geeno
I’m standing by Occam’s razor here. No one likes the Aristocracy in Britain. They’re often depicted as ugly, clueless twits, even by other aristocrats. Foxes have gone from fearful pest to cute due to 50+ years of cartoons and nature specials. As a result, there was political gain in screwing the aristocrats and “saving” the foxes. Hence the ban. End of Story.
In terms of whether the hunt should continue. I regard it as unnecessarily cruel to the fox if your intent is to control the fox population. At least prairie dog shoots require some skill, and the prairie dogs never see it coming.
AAA Bonds
The House of Lords has a lot of time on its hands. You’d be surprised how many peers took up the fox as a cause in the last century – or solar energy, or whatever other feel-good notion came into their muddled heads.
Not that I dislike any of these ideas, necessarily, just the idea of nobility.
Ghanima Atreides
@Peter: its the same principle as foxhunting. Foxhunting is an evolved system of vermin management.
Horse slaughter is the humane way to remove old horses and unwanted horses.
Killing prairie dogs is vermin control.
Linda Feathergill is a PETA-style retard.
Judas Escargot
Considering that they used to do much worse to the Irish, I’m all for letting the upper-class Twit-Brits keep busy with their pointless bloodsports instead.
Peter
@Ghanima Atreides: They are also entirely unrelated issues that happen to have some parallels. If you can’t make your case on its own merits and have to poison the argumentative well by bringing in irrelevant shit, don’t try, and leave it in the hands of those more capable.
MikeF
@Tom in TN: Is trapping a fox and letting it languish for hours or days before killing it really superior to chasing it for a quarter-hour? I wouldn’t say with any sort of certainty that the terror of trying to evade predators is worse than the terror of being suddenly and inexplicably confined. And shooting an animal often won’t produce a faster death than being overrun by dozens of larger carnivores.
Other population control methods involve nasty stuff like poisons. As I see it, fox hunting simulates a natural predator/prey relationship a lot better than most techniques. I don’t care for the use of terriers though.
Amir_Khalid
@Ghanima Atreides:
No, it is not “incredibly stupid and heartless” to note that food scarcity discourages reproduction. It is just logical. If there is not enough food to sustain a population, that population must reduce to a sustainable number. One way is that weaker animals like the very young and the very old die off in greater numbers. Another way, as Linda Featheringill notes, is that the energy-intensive activity of reproduction is reduced.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ghanima Atreides:
Yeah, that Mother Nature, she’s a bitch.
kdaug
@WereBear:
If you’re a bad shot, don’t hunt.
Done right, though (a clean shot just behind and under the ear, taking out the amygdala, thalamus, and hypothalamus), the deer’s dead before it hits the ground.
Wife’s a vegan. I ain’t. But there’s no fucking need for cruelty. Do it right, or go home.
Ghanima Atreides
@PhoenixRising: do you volunteer at a horse rescue?
I do, and im a girl.
And i bet im the ONLY person here that has ever actually hunted.
The death is instant, or the quarry gets away. Our hunt rules require the Master of Hounds carry a pistol. Sometimes the pack will find an old or sick quarry denned up, and the Master is obligated to give it a mercy shot.
When we hunt coyotes we never catch them.
They are too fast.
But they are horrific pests on the front range.
slightly_peeved
So’s slaughtering the Irish and having inbred heads of state.
Defending something by saying it’s English tradition is even stupider than, well, asking a bunch of Americans for a run-down of the issues regarding fox-hunting rather than asking whoever you’re visiting there on business.
WyldPirate
@Ghanima Atreides:
You’re just full of shit about prairie dogs. They’ve nearly been wiped out in the Western US. These animals play/played a crucial role in maintaining short-grass prairie ecosystems (which are unrecognizable from a diversity standpoint from what they once were).
The problem with the kind of lazy-assed fucks like you that ride horses in pursuit of something you aren’t going to eat is that you and other people use the “vermin” excuse to justify your “sport”. For the most part and in most localities, the numbers of predators is so low that they aren’t even close to being vermin. There are so few that the numbers of rodents and other animals that are the natural prey really do become vermin.
The only thing in my mind as a hunter lower than some fucknugget rich bastard that wants to chase fucking captured and released foxes on horses are the red-necked yahoos in NC who run deer with dogs and infest the backroads of North Carolina during deer season with their drunken lard asses sitting on trucks and blasting away at deer in a haphazard, unsafe manner.
And I’m not anti-hunting either. I’ve been hunting game of all sorts for over 40 years and will continue to as long as I can walk the fields and get around in the swamps and marshes.
Howlin Wolfe
@Ghanima Atreides: I loathe pretentious, panty-sniffing, faux british reactionaries even more. So we’re supposed get rid of prairie dogs so half-wit aristocrats can dress funny (do you wear jhodpurs to bed, “Atreides” – what are you, a fucking ancient Greek or an inbred upper-class twit?) and their useless steeds won’t get maimed? I hate insulting, pretentious reactionary twats worse than libertarians, self-congratulatory “conservatives” or teabaggers. You aren’t as smart as you think you are.
Steve
I am mystified. How many foxes are killed in the course of the average afternoon of fox-hunting? Does it really make a dent in the ranks of a fairly common animal?
Cain
@Ghanima Atreides:
I see you’re doing your best to troll this thread. I tried to just scroll past your post but unfortunately it’s full of people responding to your nonsense.
I wish people would stop responding to obvious trolls. We have nothing to prove.
slightly_peeved
When visited England, I never saw a foxhunt, but I saw a whole heap of foxes lying dead on the motorways. The main weapon used by humans to kill foxes in the UK is the Ford Focus.
Ghanima Atreides
@Amir_Khalid: wallah….im talking about horses owned by humans, not wild horses.
You are a retard too.
Horses cant get away– they are penned up.
They stand and starve, pregnant or not. Horse gestation is 11 months. Thats plenty of time to starve while pregnant if your owner cant afford to feed you.
Do you see what a fucking hypocrite you are?
Foxhunting is EVOLVED symbiotic vermin control, and a quick death for the vermin. It takes about a month for a horse to starve to death, and they usually eat sand before that and die in agony from impaction colic.
You and Linda are advocating letting horses starve to death to control excess horse population? And you freak out over vermin getting a broken neck?
I hate you both.
WyldPirate
@Ghanima Atreides:
motoko chan is back…
slag
As in all things, my vote is sterilization.
At this point, I think we should start with m_c and then move on to the foxes, horses, and other uncontrolled pests.
Draylon Hogg
My father was big on pheasant, partridge and grouse shooting, plus fishing and conservation. He used to kill foxes around his farming friends estates and also the nearby shooting estate where his friend was gamekeeper. His tools were simple. A .22 rifle with silencer, a safe shooting position, the cover of darkness and a lot of patience. He never wiped fox blood all over my chops and didn’t need twenty horsemen charging about Tally-Ho-ing or a pack of hounds. I saw him come back with the dog, the vixen and all the cubs many a time. Hunting is primarily social activity for the rich and horsey. Simple as that. Sometimes a pack of hounds get the wrong scent and tear somebody’s pet cat to pieces.
kdaug
@Ghanima Atreides:
Yes, m_c, you’re the only person who’s ever hunted.
See this look? This is me rolling my fucking eyes.
Asperger’s != asshole.
Jonathan
@Ghanima Atreides:
Dude, you have a serious attitude problem. I love how, in your view, anyone that doesn’t view fox hunting as humane is a automatically “PETA asshole ‘on horses'”, but let’s try to conversation about this without sounding like 15 year olds, alright?
If your argument is true that hound hunting foxes is the best way to go about culling the population, then I suppose the following has already been thought through:
* There’s a real problem that foxes are causing in the British countryside, such as massive livestock poaching, disease transmission, attacks on humans, etc. Are any of those things happening on a meaningful scale? A few farmers bitching about chickens wouldn’t seem to be a large enough concern.
* If any/some of the above is true, meaningful non-lethal attempts have been made to keep foxes out of areas where they might cause the above harm, and were found to be ineffective.
* If lethal methods are used to cull the population, it was determined that having the foxes spend the last few minutes of their lives in intense fear and pain, being chased by hounds, was the most humane method available.
I’m not convinced that foxes are an actual nuisance, but I could be wrong about that. I grew up in an area where foxes occasionally caused problems, but it was never suggested that we release hounds to eat them, and smarter livestock control helped tremendously.
The other two you have to convince me on. This BBC article looking briefly at both sides has me convinced that the above process hasn’t taken place: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/390064.stm
Ghanima Atreides
@slightly_peeved: My point is its THEIR tradition.
American busybodies in action. My bigger point that americans dont understand other countries ecosystems and traditions. PETA is a good example of lack of understanding.
Im the only person on this thread that has hunted. The quarry dies quick, or it gets away. Foxhunting was an industry in the UK. It isnt really the same in the US.
But it is apparently class warfare here too. You and wyld and howling are attacking me on class warfare boundaries. That is what Blair was exploiting with the ban. Farming townie votes. Just like Bush farmed the anti-science vote with his ban on ESCR. Same same.
And that is what DougJ asked.
Vote farming.
@WyldPirate: come out here to the West. There are prairie dog villages all over.
They are vectors for bubonic plague.
Peter
@Ghanima Atreides: ‘Vectors for bubonic plague’ sounds scary until you remember that the bubonic plague rates in, say, Oregon are ‘one case every fifteen years or so’.
slightly_peeved
Sigh. You’re not British. I’m a British citizen. By your own argument, why the fuck should I care what you thought about fox hunting? (slight edit to fix ‘would’ to ‘should’, and make argument clearer).
Bender
“All the shit?” You mean, being politically brave enough to drag old, xenophobic Britain kicking and screaming into the late-20th Century and saving it from becoming a second-world economy producing shoddy, second-world goods at a luxury price, with garbage piling up in the streets, electricity shortages, three-day-weeks, and million-day strikes?
Even Labour governments haven’t been so stupid as to revoke the main elements of Thatcherism, and they’ve had many opportunities.
Amir_Khalid
What bugs me most about fox-hunting English style is that it’s done as an entertainment for humans. To me, watching an animal get killed as entertainment is barbaric — whether you are a rich landed aristocrat or not
As I said, I get the need to cull predators that pose a threat to livestock and pets. I also think there are culling methods more efficient, less entertaining to watch, and less cruel than having a pack of dogs torment an animal for an afternoon and then kill it.
Ghanima Atreides
@Jonathan: what DougJ asked was–
What was the deal with the fox hunting ban?
Vote farming.
Foxhunting is an industry in the UK. Tourism, breeding hounds and bloodstock horses, food and shelter for the breeding packs and the Field’s horses, all the Hunts have followers as well a hunt field. Foxhunting ORIGINATED 300 years ago as a means of vermin control.
Today it is an industry, a symbiotic relationship.
The Hunts had to have permission to go on a farmers ground, and the farmer built coops and gates to allow the Hunt to pass fences.
According to my friends in Ireland you can still hunt if you own ground, and you can take your friends.
So the whole Blair initiative was pretty much useless.
Foxes will still die to the hunt, its no worse than most vermin deaths (and better than being trapped or poisoned). But as you can see from this thread its a way to inflame class warfare and lather up the PETAites like Linda.
Blair was vote farming.
slag
@slightly_peeved:
Well, then, let me say–as an American citizen–I deeply apologize for invading your country and forcing you to ban fox hunting in Britain. I humbly regret imposing my Exceptional will on all of your citizens and hope that you don’t continue to hold it against me like you do my unfortunate response to that whole tea tax business.
Amir_Khalid
@Ghanima Atreides:
You called me a retard! Twice! ZOMG!!! My fee-fees iz HERT.
Ghanima Atreides
@Peter: and why is that? The last prairie dog town purge happened because a girl in Durango died of bubonic plague after picking up a pocket gopher she hit with her car.
When the vector dies, the fleas hop off onto the closest living thing.
Stopping suppressing the vermin population is the same as forgoing vaccinations because some disease is not a problem anymore.
PETA are freeriders on varmints.
;)
SRW1
@Ghanima Atreides:
Killer argument. I hear that gladiator blood sports once were part of tradition and economy, as was slavery.
Peter
@Ghanima Atreides: I’m probably going to regret asking this, but: You keep saying that it’s a symbiotic relationship. What exactly is is a symbiosis between? And if you say humans and foxes I’m going to point and laugh derisively.
slightly_peeved
@slag:
Thankyou very much :). I apologise for having to live with the Beckhams, but some poor bastard had to I guess.
Jewish Steel
Jewish Steel Fact: before choosing the lucrative field of being the best mediocre musician in town, I was going to become a professional huntsman.
S’true.
British foxhunters (and beaglers and basseters for that matter) are waaaay more bloodthirsty than their American counterparts. Americans enjoy the chase more and were queasy about the kill. Hunting with hounds taps something primeval in the soul. It’s a blast chasing something through the woods.
‘Course now, you’re looking at an ethical vegetarian. You couldn’t pay me to dress up and ride to hounds.
WyldPirate
@Ghanima Atreides:
I lived in Colorado Springs for three years. One of the biggest habitats for prairie dogs in the state at the time was on Ft. Carson and the Pinon Canyon Maneuver area down in the southern part of the state east of Trinidad.
The point is that of the five species of prairie dogs in the US, the current range is a tiny fraction of the size that it once was.
Your point about priarie dogs harboring fleas that transmit bubonic plague is true, but there are only 10-15 cases in the entire US reported each year. so that isn’t really justification for the elimination of these species that played a huge role in the maintaining the short-grass prairie ecosystem.
Neither is the fact that some over-moneyed, papmpered fuckwit such as yourself wants to go tearing ass across the prairie on your goddamned horse. Don’t be stupid and go hauling ass at a full gallop in hazardous terrain like that and your horse–and perhaps you–won’t end up with broken legs or necks.
slag
@slightly_peeved: I see your Beckhams and raise you the Hiltons, Kardashians, and other people who I am unfortunate enough to accidentally know the names of.
Ghanima Atreides
@slightly_peeved: I am a foxhunter. The nat’l Hunt Association has already warned us that the british are coming for our american hunts.
;)
I have hunted– have you?
you can read about a Hunt I went on.
That was a drag hunt, btw.
Im answering DougJ’s questions.
The hunt ban is just a way to farm townie votes. It inflames class warfare passions as you can see on this thread, and brings out the prairiedog huggers like Linda. Its a townie vs rurals issue also, and the population in GB is in the towns and cities, right?
Ghanima Atreides
@WyldPirate: like i said, the REASON there aren’t many cases is that prairie dog population suppression is working.
classwarfare.
And actually Arapahoe Hunt leases 40,000 acres of retired bombing range from the US gov’t. The hunt horses were in greater danger of stepping in old bomb craters, but we have them flagged or filled now. Prairie dogs can make new holes overnight, so they are more dangerous.
You will be pleased to know that there is a new Hunt riding out of Peterson AFB ground now. That makes three Hunts on the front range.
;)
lou
Nobody, but nobody, hates PETA more than me. I hate PETA with the heat of a thousand suns. But now I’m tempted to go to its website and contribute as a “frack you” to Ghanima (pretentious twit with the handle of the daughter of Paul Atreides of Dune for those of you who don’t read scifi).
Other people on the thread said they hunt and you still insist you’re the only one who knows anything about it. and apparently you only know how to call others names like ‘retard.’ what are you, 13? You’re no Ghanima, that’s for sure.
dpcap
@Ghanima Atreides:
You’re not making a very sympathetic case. Even if your arguments were coherent, calling everyone names is only going to make us ignore any arguments you make.
#dontfeedthetroll
Mnemosyne
@Steve:
Usually, one fox is killed. So, no, not exactly an efficient way to keep the population down.
And I do love how crazy matoko has been trying to change the subject from hunting wild animals to keeping domestic horses in terrible conditions. Because chasing a wild fox through the woods with a pack of dogs is no different than buying a domestic horse and starving it to death because shut up, that’s why.
WyldPirate
@Ghanima Atreides:
You didn’t “say that” anywhere in the post, you simply used it as a rationale to get rid of prairie dogs so you you could run your godamned horses wherever you want at top speed in those ridiculous fucking red outfits.
The prairie dog populations were decimated in the west by ranchers long before pretentious twits like you were riding around on the weekend in your ridiculous hunting get-ups trying to emulate British aristocracy.
As for the bombing range hunts, perhaps we will be lucky and you and your horse will encounter and set off some unexploded ordinance that was missed during the clearing of the bombing range.
Glennsyank13
Between prairie dogs and horse, I’d take the prairie dogs every time…
Ghanima Atreides
@Peter: the Hunt provides a lot of income for farmers. Tourist trade, bed and breakfasts, stabling horses and hound packs, breeding hounds and bloodstock, and the Hunt has to have permission to ride on the famers lands, and the farmers build coops and gates in their fence lines so they can. Everything from pinques and whips and saddles and stirrup cups have to be manufactured and bought from someone.
The Hunt evolved from reducing the fox population to a cottage industry for rural brits. Blair was horrible to the country people, he mismanaged a hoof and mouth crises horribly.
Every inch of ground in GB is owned and managed, not like in the states.
Ghanima Atreides
@Mnemosyne: no, im drawing the parallel between foxlovers, prairiedog huggers and PETA retards that think outlawing foxhunts and horse slaughter somehow benefits foxes and horses.
Gromit
@Peter: This brings to mind the food chain.
My takeaway from this thread is (1) to replace the drug cocktails that explode death row inmates’ hearts, states should simply sic packs of hounds on them, for the most humane death imaginable, and (2) a thriving market in horse meat would actually be a good thing for horses.
Ghanima Atreides
@lou: who else has foxhunted?
slag
I was listening to a RadioLab episode about zoos (cruel or not?), and they brought up a situation wherein rural Chinese bussed through a park where they got to entertain themselves by feeding live chickens to lions. At some point, they ended up at a place where either a lion or a tiger was in a cage, pacing back and forth, and consistently yowling plaintively–as if it was being tortured. The whole thing smacked as a sort of anthropological exploration of culture, but at the end, the story’s correspondent couldn’t help but interject her thoughts on the subject. She said that our distaste for these cruelties was likely an indicator of us embracing a culture that is removed from life’s casual atrocities…and that maybe that was a good thing.
Personally, I prefer a world where neither casual nor acute cruelties are embraced in the name of tradition, expediency, or any other supposed value.
Glennsyank13
@Ghanima Atreides: For someone who claims to be such a lover of horses, you sure don’t mind putting them in danger to satisfy your selfish desire for entertainment. You are the reason horses break legs running over the prairie. You are no different than a person causing horses to starve to death. Unless you want to debate which is worse, starvation or being put down due to a person’s selfish need to ride.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ghanima Atreides: Drag hunts would serve the same purpose without the issue of cruelty to the fox coming into play.
Gromit
Oops, bad link.
Ghanima Atreides
@Gromit:
it would be, because there would be a humane slaughter industry in the states.
But it wouldnt have to be horse meat for human consumption. Traditionally old hunt horses that have to be put down go to feed the hounds. A premium dogfood made from horsemeat in this country would be outstanding.
Then we wouldn’t have to buy poisoned petfood from china.
People here have big hearts for dogs.
But abandoned horses are much harder to rehome than dogs.
Do you personally know anyone that can adopt a horse?
They take a lot of space and a lot of feed.
Ghanima Atreides
@Glennsyank13: niice. that is PETA’s argument, exactly.
and i ride with Bijou Springs Hunt usually. They own their hunt ground, so we kill prairie dogs on sight. Poison or shoot.
;)
Loneoak
Wow, some stupid arguments coming from Ghamina, based on some really ridiculous claims.
First of which is: fox are vermin. Unless we are talking about the Murdoch variety, they just aren’t. Fox HUNT vermin, keeping rodent populations much more stable and ecologically appropriate. Put some efforts into taking care of and protecting your domestic animals and there is no reason to kill a fox.
You can judge a person and a society by how they respond to predators. Do they declare the world a place that must be constructed for their convenience, or do they take the time and care to accommodate other beings that might also want to eat? I think you’ve demonstrated your position quite well. Does a predator occasionally kill a cat that should have been indoors or steal a couple chickens? Create an economy around dressing up like morons and letting your dogs to maul the fox to death. Does a rodent make a hole that a horse might step in? Spend billions pumping poison into those holes. It’s archaic, immoral, and anti-ecological. Shut the fuck up and leave us adults alone.
And, Ghamina, your claim that I must participate in something I loathe in order to understand is profoundly … retarded. Do you have to participate in rape to loathe it? You really ought to take a basic logic course at the local community college.
Loneoak
@Ghanima Atreides:
Ghanima Atreides
ALL:
IMHO city people should not get to tell country people what to do.
Foxes are cute and loveable to you and PETA, but chicken killing disease carrying vermin to actual farmers.
DougJ says:
To inflame class warfare and PETA retards as you see on this thread, and farm townie votes. Foxhunting is still going on through the loopholes.
It is far more merciful than poison or trapping.
There are far more townie votes than countryside votes. Blair was just votefarming like Bush votefarmed with the ban on ESCR.
slag
I agree! The Civil War was a totally misguided and unnecessary event. Curse you, Abraham Lincoln! Friggin townie.
Ghanima Atreides
@Loneoak: give me your address and i will livetrap a prairie dog for your lawn.
You are not a farmer or a rancher. You want to tell farmers and ranchers what to do with their ground.
PETA thinks horses should not be ridden. that is their argument.
No, they do not. You are however welcome to have them play that role in ground you OWN.
Ghanima Atreides
@slag: that is the libertarian argument.
The civil war was about slavery, not foxhunting.
slag
@Ghanima Atreides:
And foxhunting is about whether or not city people get to tell country folk what to do. Obvs.
Ghanima Atreides
This is a fascinating thread, right DougJ?
Classwarfare is alive and thriving in America.
It was this sentiment that Blair was trying to tap into with the foxhunting ban.
Populous town votes vs. sparse rural votes.
Ghanima Atreides
Foxes torn to pieces is the Great Britian mythological equivalent of partial birth abortion babies torn to pieces. The foxhunting ban targetted an electoral demographic just like Bushes ESCR ban and crusade against PBA.
Stupid people abound.
Ghanima Atreides
@slag:
no, its about Blair pandering to city people to get their votes like Bush pandered to christians to get their votes.
Gromit
@Ghanima Atreides:
The people buying pet food from China aren’t in the market for premium pet food. It’s not as if lack of horse meat is a major obstacle to most folks feeding their pets quality food, and premium pet food buyers are (1) much more likely to be aware of what goes into their pet food and (2) likely to recoil at the thought of buying a can of ground-up Trigger.
The Tragically Flip
@Ghanima Atreides:
Wait. What? I don’t want polar bears to go extinct, am I required to keep one in my house? Plenty of animals have impacts on human activity, but are we supposed to just let them all be wiped out because anyone anywhere stands to profit from their extinction?
And poking around, the case for prarie dog holes breaking horse or cattle legs seems very thin and completely anecdotal. Given that prarie dogs actually purposely cut the grass around their holes to help them spot predators, it’s unlikely horses wouldn’t see the holes.
http://www.nwf.org/News-and-Magazines/National-Wildlife/Animals/Archives/2001/Learning-to-Live-With-Prairie-Dogs.aspx
Ghanima Atreides
@Loneoak:
i never claimed that. You said other ppl on this thread have hunted– I said they havent foxhunted with the Hunt. I SAID foxhunting on horseback is way different than duck hunting or deer hunting or small game hunting.
And the fox does not get “mauled to death”. Ever.
slag
@Ghanima Atreides: So true. When you’re looking for single-issue bait, foxhunting is a surefire winner.
Ghanima Atreides
@The Tragically Flip: strawman alert! prairie dogs are no where close to being extinct. And Loneoak said they were ecologically valuable.
That is why I offered him one for his lawn.
;)
Ghanima Atreides
@slag: it apparently works here too, not just in England. The conservatives should run on a PETA platform.
Instead of partial birth abortion posters make posters of torn up foxes and gassed prairie dogs.
;)
Peter
@Ghanima Atreides:
Oh, really? From the Burns Report:
Page 116, if you care to look it up.
Also, from what you’ve said here I’m not sure you’ve actually gone Fox-Hunting either. The only experiences you’ve cited are those of participating in drag-hunts with no actual fox involved. Can you clarify this?
Alex S.
@slag:
To be honest, the shooting-wolves-from-a-helicopter attack was pretty effective against Palin.
The Tragically Flip
@Ghanima Atreides: “Classwarfare is alive and thriving in America.”
Rich people getting away with something wrong usually resort to this kind of whining when anyone brings up what they’re doing. The only reason class plays into this is because only the rich tend to be able to afford to partake in fox hunts.
Why don’t we stick to the morality of the act itself and why those seeking to ban it are wrong? Is it morally acceptable for people to release dogs to chase down and kill a small mammal while humans ride along to watch for entertainment?
You keep bringing up some supposed equivalence between Bush banning stem cell research and this. I would not have any difficulty making a moral case for stem cell research, but you seem unable to make any kind of ethical case for fox hunting. Why is this acceptable?
Tata
Reading this thread is like watching the very loud, very messy, public nervous breakdown of an unpleasant celebrity. With a bad hairdo.
slag
@Alex S.: Was there any attack that was not effective against Palin? If there were a war between Palin Country and the US, I’d feel perfectly comfortable posting Katie Couric at the front lines. That’s the very definition of anomaly.
lethargytartare
@Ghanima Atreides:
you are a liar.
my only question is whether you’re getting paid to spin this web of bs, otherwise I’m at a loss to figure out why for this issue alone you’ve managed to abandon your faux-leet speak in favor of semi-coherent standard english.
you’re also lying about prairie dogs
The Tragically Flip
@Ghanima Atreides:
You complaining about strawmen is a bit rich (horse meat! PETA! Stem Cells!). Prarie dogs have declined precipitously and extinction is the natural result of your implied argument that ranchers and farmers should be able to kill whatever animals have any impact on them.
There is already lobbying against listing them as threatened, which means it’s a distinct possibility they already are but simply aren’t listed for political reasons.
I notice you also didn’t answer the part about there being no evidence that horses and cows actually do break their legs on prarie dog holes. I’m sure you’re just deciding which parts of the voluminous literature to post on the subject, right?
pk
@Ghanima Atreides:
I don’t think you know the meaning of the word symbiotic.
jake the snake
Despite my misgivings, I will weigh in on this.
First of all, I don’t hunt. I considerate an archaic activity. I know lots of people that do hunt. I don’t care as long as they are responsible.
I do stay at home during hunting season. There are way too many dumbasses who don’t have a clue wandering around in the woods with guns.
My father loved animals and hated hunting. In fact, he once responded to someone who had asked permission to hunt on his property, ” I don’t care for hunting, and I don’t care for hunters.” However, he would not hesitate to shoot a fox or stray dog that was killing chickens.
I do have a little story to tell.
As a child, I like to ride on the tractor while my father was plowing, etc. Once, while moving a field for hay, he accidentally killed a rabbit with the mower, He stopped the tractor, and told me to stay where I was. He got a ballpeen hammer out of the tool box and walked back toward the mower. At the time, I though he was working on the mower. It was only several years later that I realized that he had taken the hammer to euthanize any baby rabbits that would have starved or been eaten by a predator.
Like my father, I love animals, except I hate pigs to this day. There is not nastier, smarter, ormore contrary animal is this world.
jake the snake
@jake the snake:
except I hate pigs to this day. There is not nastier, smarter, ormore contrary animal is this world.
I forget, except humans.
Jack Bauer
@Ghanima Atreides:
What rubbish:
Blair ran his entire campaign avoiding class warfare issues. You haven’t a fucking clue what you’re talking about. I lived in rural Britain for years, knew hunters etc. Never hunted though, so maybe I don’t know shit…
It is a cruel blood sport, that reasonable societies should do away with. You can still ride your my little ponies all you like, wearing whatever you like. Call it a hunt if you like. How do you feel about all the horsies that die on hunts anyway? Given you love em so much.
Are you a teenager? You argue like one.
Quarks
I know zilch about fox hunting or whether the British need to worry about little foxes invading Windsor Castle and eating off the silver plate (or whatever), or about horses, domestic or wild, but I do want to note that prairie dog numbers are still in severe decline. News reports just this month have noted that numbers are anywhere from 5 to 10% of what they were in the 1920s, where the numbers had already declined from the 19th century. (Google! It is your friend!) Also, prairie dogs are both incredibly cute and potential agricultural pests. In the real world, animals can be both.
Mind you, I see no reason why anyone in Britain should be worrying about U.S. prairie dogs when making decisions about fox hunting, and this thread has failed to convince me otherwise.
bjacques
Hey Ghanima, don’t the quality ride sandworms and hunt Harkonnens where you’re from? Or did the Arrakis Spring put an end to all that?
Your posts make me sorry the Butlerian Jihad didn’t come off.
Steve
@pk: Do you think “symbolic” might be the right word?
Ghanima Atreides
@Quarks: that wasnt the question.
Blair was farming town votes. There are more townies than farmers in England.
No, being trapped or poisoned is worse.
no one is. But fox lovers, prairie dog huggers, and PETA people are the same the world over.
Has the ban on foxhunting saved any foxes? Nope. The Hunt gets around the law. Has the ban on horse slaughter saved a single horse? No they just get trucked to Mexico.
On this thread idiots who have never ridden a horse or seen a live prairie dog are making PETA arguments…ie, horses shouldn’t be ridden because they might break their leg.
Idiots who have never BEEN on a foxhunt are telling me what happens on a foxhunt.
I do actually feel a lot of guilt about my privileged upbringing.
But not about foxhunting, and not about putting a dress on my horse and pretending to joust with the SCA either. Ive been on kill hunts, but they are rarer and rarer, because of fences and suburban sprawl..
If we hunt on our own ground, what’s it to you? If we trap a fox or poison a fox is that any worse? If we kill all the prairie dogs on our own ground, whats that to you? What about game preserves? Is that any different? My family belongs to a pheasant game preserve and gun club.
Let the prairie dogs live in your backyard if they are so ecologically wonderful. They probably will.
There are more coyotes in america than when the pilgrims landed.
And coyotes and prairie dogs are both vermin as far as im concerned.
And so are foxes.
;)
Ghanima Atreides
@bjacques: no the “quality” like the Harkonnen aristocracy hunted fremen rebels from ornithopters (like Palin and the wolves, or drones on wedding parties). Rebel House Atreides rode sandworms into battle to bring the Arrakis Spring to the Emperor’s Sardaukar and House Harkonnen.
pk
@Ghanima Atreides:
You need to end every comment with “So there Poopyheads”
Godwin
You know who else wanted to exterminate the vermin?
Anonymousbritperson
Oh I’ve only ever commented a couple of times but this thread is so insane and er…free of british people that I will nervously weigh in.
The fact is that fox-hunting would never have swung an election in the same way partial birth abortion would in the USA because no one is a single issue voter here, but it was a profoundly unpopular activity with the majority of the population. Blair at the time was the ultimate populist. He allowed a vote on it at a time when labour had a massive majority and he won.
There has not been even a casual mention as yet of the Tories reinstating fox hunting that’s how loathed the activity was and how unpopular reinstatement would be. Britain really likes cute furry animals.
The vermin argument is silly because it only killed one fox at a time.
The class war argument is reasonable but it would not have survived as the last remaining legal blood sport if it wasn’t an activity enjoyed by the aristocracy. Being an upper class sport protected it! Banning it certainly had an economic cost but i guess sometimes some people choose personal morals ahead of cost.
There are large parts of northern england that essentially died due to Thatcher’s policies whether you think they were right or not so yeah..probably some people wanted to stick it to some of the toffs who cheered her on.
I know nothing of praire dogs or wild horses but I hope they are all cute and ok.
Ghanima Atreides
@pk: dont you get bored with teh Stupid?
These people are clueless retards.
Is the foxes death more cruel than American factory farms?
Judas Escargot
@Ghanima Atreides:
..and then unleashed those Fremen upon the whole known universe in a bloody Jihad of pointless, religion-fueled slaughter. All in the name of reversing ‘genetic stagnation’ (and, BTW, just replacing one hereditary aristocratic order with another one).
As a teen, I loved and lived those books (in my personal mythology, second only to Gene Wolfe’s somewhat deeper epic).
At my current age, though, I’m not entirely sure the right side won the Butlerian Jihad.
One should choose one’s heroes carefully.
The Tragically Flip
This is the same form of stupid argument that gun control opponents make, which is of the form “if control X is not 100% effective, it must therefore be useless.”
Making fox hunting more difficult and/or expensive almost certainly reduces the amount of it going on. Something to be said too for at least not having the state subsidize an objectionable activity by allowing it to take place on public land.
It also sets the stage for a later complete ban. Lots of things in politically contentious areas happen in stages, 30 years ago the idea of banning smoking in restaurants was politically untenable too, now many jurisdictions mandate it.
Own-ry
I wish Atreides would state his position (which is informed by his own participation) with less anger. But this is a difficult issue filled with maddening falsehoods.
Here are reasons I support foxhunting:
– The fox dies instantly because the hounds snap its neck immediately by instinct; provocative footage of ‘worrying’ a body is misleading.
– Foxhunting is an ancient form of hunting that has helped preserve the countryside in Britain. It is a unique tradition that has proved its worth over the centuries.
– Foxhunting is not only for ‘the aristocratic class’ in the UK … it is an industry that employs many rural working folks, with a healthy mix of middle class participants. You don’t have to be an aristocrat to foxhunt. That’s why 400,000 protesters of the Hunt Ban assembled: it was their way of life being voted out for cynical political gain.
– Hounds are not very effective in catching/killing healthy foxes. Most chases ended without killing a fox at all (before the Ban).
– Because hounds are so ineffective at catching healthy foxes, foxhunting ‘culls’ the fox population remarkably well: healthy foxes can be expected to have many years evading the Hunt. (Ironically, it is trapping, gassing and shooting that disproportionately kills otherwise healthy foxes in their most-active prime.)
– The enjoyment of foxhunting is in the joy and thrill of galloping in the great outdoors, following one of Nature’s great prey/predator dramas. It’s not about cruelly chasing down a helpless animal for kicks, one of the most insulting anti-foxhunter assumptions. In fact, foxhunting riders I’ve known have a great love of nature that seems absent in its accusers … ironically enough.
– Ironically, the falsely-claimed ‘humane’ foxhunting ban was put into place for political support by Tony Blair’s administration as they were cynically taking his nation to war in Iraq.
– The main reason why I do NOT support the Hunt Ban: killing foxes with guns, gas, and trapping is still allowed! The Hunt Ban is not saving any fox lives, it is increasing their loss. Again, ironically.
It seems a bit hypocritical not to look into what is actually happening to the poor foxes now, who are more of a victim than ever before. Foxes used to have a chance with their natural predators (the hounds) but they stand no chance against a shotgun or trap.
* * * *
Incidentally, the glorious fox kills for pleasure and are known for being wily tricksters … though they seem cute to many when not actually covered in their prey’s blood.
Somehow the bloodthirsty fox has gotten this wonderful name in recent years. LOL, it seems Fox News capitalized on this odd trend.
lou
@Ghanima Atreides:
You didn’t say fox-hunt, you said hunt. or to foxhunters, that’s the only kind?
Guess I shouldn’t feed the trolls.
pk
@Ghanima Atreides:
I do get bored with “teh stupid”. That’s why I’m completely bored with you.
eemom
@Anonymousbritperson:
bless your noble British heart. Near as I can tell you’ve spoken the only words of truth on this godawful clusterfuck of a thread.
Please comment more often.
Ghanima Atreides
@The Tragically Flip: NO it isnt the same.
This whole thread is american busybodies poking their nose into other peoples culture.
Blair used the hunt ban to get townie votes, in the same kind of class warfare expressed against me in this thread.
And people on this thread are stupid enough to get lathered over foxhunting in the Land of Factory Farm Beef, Chicken and Pork.
Why doesn’t PETA do anything about that?
@Own-ry: i am a gurrl…and I agree with everything you said, and you can read about a Boxing Day hunt on my old blog where im not angry.
Im angry with these intransigently stupid people here.
Fat stupid Americans don’t want any connection with the meat they shovel into their maws.
Foxhunting is a tradition, a celebration of the symbiotic relationship between humans and animals and the land.
@Anonymousbritperson: and you are a stupid british person.
Racing, horse shows, horse breeding all started with the Hunt. Its not just the aristocracy.
TOWNIES hate the Hunt. There are MANY more townies than countryfolk. The countryfolk and the aristocracy understand it.
you are right, its a populist issue exploited by politicians. JUST like abortion in the US.
Anonymousbritperson
@eemom:
Thankyou for your kind words and encouragement, there are still some slightly strange things being said, but I suppose that has been known to happen on the internet.
Ghanima Atreides
oh great. moderation.
@eemom: no, he is dimwitted too.
This whole thread is american busybodies poking their nose into other peoples culture.
Blair used the hunt ban to get townie votes, in the same kind of class warfare expressed against me in this thread.
And people on this thread are stupid enough to get lathered over foxhunting in the Land of Factory Farm Beef, Chicken and Pork.
Why doesn’t PETA do anything about that?
Racing, horse shows, horse breeding all started with the Hunt. Its not just the aristocracy.
But TOWNIES hate the Hunt. There are MANY more townies than countryfolk. The countryfolk and the aristocracy are far fewer.
And he is right about one thing, its a popul1st issue exploited by politicians. JUST like abortion in the US. In the US there are proportionally more heartland rurals than in England. My friend John told me an acre in Cambridge costs a million pounds.
Ghanima Atreides
@lou: foxhunting is what we were talking about ON THIS THREAD.
i should have been more clear, but i did think juicers could read for context.
shano
Ive foxhunted in Maryland and Pennsylvania. In the US the fox is ‘chased’ and they dont put a Jack Russell on the fox when he goes to ground.
I used to have a fox on my farm that absolutely taunted the hounds, he would lay complicated tracks and then sit behind by barn laughing at them. No shit. This is the fox that ate all my Guinea hens by hypnotizing them which made them fly right to him.
In the 25 years I hunted with Fox hounds, there were only two kills. One a very old mangy fox who was dying anyway, and one a very sad mistake where the hounds ‘chopped’ the fox (coming on him downwind while he was taking a sun bath).
Ive also hunted rabbit with Beagles and Bassett Hounds… Foxhunting is an egalitarian sport in that local farmers can hunt and love it. There were all sorts of people in the groups riding out, from the very wealthy to the local blacksmith. It creates a lot of wealth in rural economies and helps with land preservation, etc.
And Ghanima is right: it is the townies who hate the hunt, even if it is simply chasing the fox for fun and not killing him. They would never be able to enjoy this, you have to get up early and be fit enough to ride well.
Ghanima Atreides
@Own-ry: do you ride with a Hunt?
I agree with everything you said, but im young and have a hot temper, and all these people do is scold.
I stated an answer to DougJ’s questions at comment 11, and then idiots started attacking me as usual. The first 10 comments are all crap from people who know nothing about foxhunting.
But thats the internet.
Mary
@Own-ry: I’m incredibly hesitant to enter this discussion but I read this,
and I am very confused. What exactly is the difference between enjoying the thrill of galloping in the great outdoors while following one of nature’s great dramas and cruelly chasing down a helpless animal for kicks? Both phrases describe the exact same feeling about the exact same activity – it’s purely a matter of personal opinion as to whether that feeling is noble or horrible.
Ghanima Atreides
@shano: thank you.
I’ve only been on two hunts where a fox was killed. Mostly they get away.
In the Plum Creek Valley here there was a foxfarmer who just opened his cages when the bottom fell out of the fur market.
Foxes here are awful pests and people welcome the Hunt.
Arapaho hunts coyotes, and we can never catch them unless they are sick or crippled. Not as wily as foxes but very fast.
But the point isn’t if foxhunting is moral or humane in the US, or in England. Blair used the ban to get votes from the townies.
Just like Bush used the ESCR ban to get votes from white christians.
shano
I will say, too, that I have helped the hunt staff cook down an old horse for hound food. Much better for dogs than any commercial pet food on the market. And I certainly could not eat horse meat myself.
I have been riding horses for 45 years now, specialized in training young horses, and understand and loved them my whole life.
The ‘country life’ of Sassoon and Surtees (one of the best humor writers in England) is slowly disappearing, so sad.
shano
What exactly is the difference between enjoying the thrill of galloping in the great outdoors while following one of nature’s great dramas and cruelly chasing down a helpless animal for kicks? Both phrases describe the exact same feeling about the exact same activity – it’s purely a matter of personal opinion as to whether that feeling is noble or horrible”
Well, for one thing, the Fox is hardly a “helpless animal”. Foxes are really really smart and can run fast, they have the advantage of ‘home turf’. Most foxes we hunted would enjoy the chase and then go to ground when they had enough. Why didnt they go to ground immediately if they didnt get something out of outfoxing a bunch of hounds?
And again, some people will NEVER understand the joys of country life or understand how outdoor sports bring people of all economic and social strata to a level playing field.
Ghanima Atreides
@Mary: its an anachronism. One of my friends paints himself blue with woad and runs naked through the woods pretending to be a celtic warrior.
He is in the SCA too.
I don’t think you can understand it unless you have participated.
the fox is not defenseless, they are very clever predators. kills are rare. The difference between Own-ry, me, shano and the other people on this thread is that you are all all townies of sorts.
Have you ever ridden a horse even?
Anonymousbritperson
@Ghanima Atreides:
Seems a bit much to call me dimwitted and a stupid british person (who is a she) when I basically agreed with you about the politics of it all, but again I suppose it is the internet.
Banning fox hunting was a no lose for Blair because it only alienated a rural constituency that doesn’t vote labour anyway and the ban was actually supported by a majority of british people (if I remember rightly but feel free to correct me).
I have no doubt that fox hunting is misunderstood by us ‘townies’ and as I said that there is an economic cost to some rural communities. It may well be that the middle class enjoyed fox hunting as much as the aristocracy but not for one second is it perceived as anything other than an ‘aristocratic’ sport in the UK (where I definitely live). People who say ‘townies’ don’t understand the hunt are entirely right, i have no clue, i am open minded enough to be persuaded, (just not by those who call me dimwitted – even if i did find it hilarious)
The internet appears to be hard work *tries to gather remaining dignity and walk away*
Ghanima Atreides
@The Tragically Flip: most hunts own their ground, or ride on the land of friends of the Hunt, loca farmers. Arapahoe leases the old bombing grounds. They pay.
i don’t see how Factory Farm America has the chops to bitch about foxhunting.
Bloody hypocrites.
YAFB
Traditional foxhunting with hounds is a ridiculously inefficient way to control and kill foxes.
Farmers round here shoot them if they become a problem.
Badly managed hunts can do much more harm than good by dispersing fox populations. The females normally keep the males in line. Clever farmers will protect them and try to keep their population in balance.
Many hunts actually breed and release foxes into the “wild” for their sport.
Hunts have often strayed into people’s gardens and killed domestic cats, dogs etc.
Whatever Blair’s motivation (a cheap populist hit is probably not insignificant), foxhunting is popular in the certain parts (note: not all) of Britain not just because of tradition but because it’s the remnant of feudalism – toffs riding roughshod over the land and devil take the hindmost. The decimation of rural economies and the decline in old craft trades like farriers etc. is mitigated by it, but the same could just as easily be achieved by draghunting – indeed, some hunts have adopted that as an alternative.
The Tories probably won’t make any moves to remove the ban, not least because they have enough problems at the moment, but also because it’s only a partial ban anyway – in the UK mainland, you can hunt as usual, but the kill should not be performed by the dogs, but by a clean shot.
As for tradition, we used to badgerbait, hunt otters, organize cockfights, dogfights, you name it. These still go on, and the people who’re caught are prosecuted.
That’s from a 50-plus-year Brit who’s lived most of it in the countryside. #NoTrollsThanks
shano
Anonymousbritperson: when England was considering this ban, I just thought: holy shit, they are going to lose billions in tourist dollars. So dont think this ban didnt hurt you townies too. I know many Americans who saved and scrimped for years to have a vacation bit of Foxhunting in England or Ireland.
Ghanima Atreides
@Anonymousbritperson: ok, i apolo.
i was harsh.
Here you can have a taste of an American hunt from my old blog.
It was a drag hunt, because Front Range hunts where the ponyclubbers are invited are always drag or scent hunts. Also there is a slow field for them, just walk trot and no jumping unless you want to.
If you love your horse there is nothing better.
The show ring is not really riding.
Like most things, American Hunts are more egalitarian.
;)
shano
YAFB: oh dear, you have no clue. Tell me, which hunt clubs raise fox? I want a link to that one….the Masters of Foxhounds Asso. would not approve.
The two clubs I hunted with raised chickens and killed them to leave for wild Foxes in late spring during cub season…..so wild female Foxes would have good food while raising their cubs.
Ghanima Atreides
@YAFB: and we still have game preserves where we breed game birds and release them and shoot them.
SO?
Do you have factory farms and feedlots in Great Britain?
Omnes Omnibus
@Anonymousbritperson: Please do not allow your interactions with one of this blog’s less pleasant personalities to drive you away.
Directly on topic: As an American, I don’t have a vote on the the issue in Britain, but I was disappointed by the ban. I will note however that the countryside industry that surrounds fox hunting does not actually depend on the pursuit of an actual fox. A drag hunt would have all the pageantry, travel through the fresh and countryside, and all the danger. It would still support the hounds, the horses, the farriers, the saddlers, the boot makers, the inns, the pubs, and everything else.
YAFB
What part of #NoTrollsThanks are you unable to grasp?
/done
Anonymousbritperson
@Ghanima Atreides:
Many thanks for that, although I respectfully disagree that the townies are out to destroy certain ways of life (although maybe out of ignorance we might interfere with it) I did appreciate the lovely way you wrote about the hunt and conjured some of it’s excitement, I’ll be reading about it some more.
Cheers
Ghanima Atreides
@shano: no one does that. he’s lying.
Ghanima Atreides
@YAFB: you are lying. No accreditted Hunt raises foxes.
we go “cubbing” in the early fall. Its like a trail ride to get the young horses and young hounds started. No kills ever, we just look for dens. Rarely find any.
;)
shano
Omnes: drag hunting is NOT the same. Real Foxes are much more clever. But it does take special training for hound to follow a drag. We tried it once with a pack who were used to real hunting and it was a disaster. So, I guess there will have to be a new generation of Foxhounds who will be trained from the start to follow nothing but artificial scent.
One of the joys of foxhunting is there are ‘blank’ days. Days when the scent does not hold, a lot of searching and no finding. These days had as much fun in them as days with high speed runs over fences.
When you try to manufacture a natural sport, the totality of the experience is not the same.
Ghanima Atreides
@Anonymousbritperson: you should watch a hunt ride out, and hilltop with them.
Hilltopping is where pedestrian followers or driving people in pony carts can watch the hunt. Has to be a drag though, because they are predictable, so you know which hills to pick.
@Omnes Omnibus: Hunts are naturally evolving to be mostly drag anyways. The morality of killing foxes is not the topic of this thread. Lathering up townie voters with imaginary torn to pieces foxes is the topic.
Omnes Omnibus
@shano: I understand that it is not exactly the same. Nevertheless, if the concern is over maintaining a way of life and support for certain rural crafts, a drag hunt can provide much of that. As I said above, I was disappointed by the (partial) ban. I just think that, if it exists, there are ways of avoiding having certain rural traditions die out.
N.B. Seeing G.A.’s arguments, of course, nearly convinced me to become a sab.
SRW1
@shano:
That sounds like some really impressive ‘pest control’.
shano
Foxes are a problem for farmers. Hunt clubs in the US compensate local farmers for livestock losses when they occur.
Farmers are still free to shoot them. I hate trapping, though. If anything should be banned it should be baiting and trapping until they devise a trap that kills instantly.
Ghanima Atreides
@shano: I hate trapping, but poisoning is worse. The poison gets into the foodchain. and the raptors die from eating poisoned carrion or lay eggs with no shells.
shano
Now I live in Arizona where they have a long tradition of hunting Mountain Lion with hounds. The hounds tree them and then the hunter shoots the lion. This is not a group activity, though. Mostly just a few country boys going out with their hounds and guns and some whiskey. Too bad the Mountain Lion does not have the reproductive fecundity of the Fox, and needs huge amounts of territory to survive. Dont particularly like this at all. (this is just something to compare to Foxhunting)
pattonbt
@Ghanima Atreides: Jesus you are an idiot who is so full of their pseudo intellectual prattle you can not even see how moronic you are. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
The issue is about pest control by brutal sport. No one denies pest control is necessary. It’s the mechanism of that policy that is problem.
If foxes are vermin and need population control, there are more humane and effective ways of accomplishing that. Fox hunting is, and always was, bloodsport for the well heeled. And to state is simply, I am against bloodsport.
And I do recognize that we humans, as animals, have a natural capacity for bloodsport – I’d just like to believe we can civilize ourselves a bit from our brutal nature at this point in our evolution.
pattonbt
@Ghanima Atreides: I love how your insanity went from “I bet I am the only person on this thread who hunts” to “I am the only person on this thread who hunts”. Assume facts not in evidence much?
You have no clue who does or does not hunt here and are just vomiting up made up fantasy land facts as if they were passed down on stone tablets from baby Jeebus hisself to your lonely little eyes and ears.
Sorry, I mean Moohamid hisself.
Cudlip.
pattonbt
@Ghanima Atreides:
“You are not a farmer or a rancher. You want to tell farmers and ranchers what to do with their ground.”
What a very, um, Libertarian view you hold there. So now are you going to troll yourself endlessly like you did EDK.
FREEMARKETER!!!!
pattonbt
@Ghanima Atreides:
“i should have been more clear, but i did think juicers could read for context.”
Again, if you maybe actually paid attention to what you write and thought through your positions before spouting off your made up world facts, I think you’d see most people here see the context of what you are saying and are, appropriately, calling it bunk.
You really are obtuse and you really never learn.
pattonbt
@shano: Billions? Really? Billions?
Ghanima Atreides
@pattonbt: i answered DougJ’s questions.
Blair was pandering to townies for votes. The foxhunting ban did not actually stop foxhunting.
No. Trapping, poisoning, and factory furfarming and factory meat farming are much worse.
No, it was Blair lathering up the townies about the po’ lil’ foxes with a dash of class warfare to get their votes.
And the retard juicers got all lathered up as well.
Americans have no moral authority on foxhunting. This is the land of factory farms. Factory farm beef, chicken and pork. That is a horrific existance for any animal.
I have foxhunted. We were talking about foxhunting. That is the topic of the thread. The people that have actually FOXHUNTED like me, shano, and own-ry SUPPORT foxhunting.
Townies and PETA lovers dont.
Ghanima Atreides
@pattonbt: The huntfolk say hunt for foxhunting. Foxhunting on horse back is vastly different from other kinds of hunting.
pattonbt
@Ghanima Atreides: It’s only different because they’ve made it different. It doesn’t have to be different. They made it a team sport an outing event. My beef is if the goal is pest control then do so in a serious, effective manner. Foxhunting, as it was, was a sport not pest control.
I guess my question to you is, what do you believe foxhunting was primarily for. Sport or pest control? If sport, well then we will disagree to the end of time that it is anything other than animalistic barbarity. If pest control, then there are much better methods available.
As for Blair, do I think he used some class warfare on the issue, sure. To what degree? I don’t know, I didn’t follow it too closely. But I am fine with bloodsport being banned no matter the methods (well I am sure there are some limits to the methods I would accept, but simple class warfare would not be one of them).
shano
pattonbt: Yes, Billions over a decade or less. Because it is an expensive sport. You have to have your Hunt Secretary call England to whatever hunt you want to try. Then you have to stay in a Country Inn. You have to Rent a nice enough Horse that you will have a good time. You have to buy meals, rent a car, fly your saddle over, You have no idea how many Americans go to England and Ireland to Foxhunt each season.
Its like skiing. Fun but EXPENSIVE. The reason it isnt too much of an elitist sport in a local region is that farmers have the right to hunt anytime because the hunt rides over the farmers land. Many children of farmers ride out, as well as wives of local mechanics, etc. People can pay a ‘cap’ fee for a single hunt, just like GOLF, if they know the rules and ride safely enough to do so.
Now I go Jackrabbit coursing with my Xoloitzcuintle. Its beautiful. Two years now and Jack always gets to the scrub oak in time, haha
pseudonymous in nc
Bullshit. Fox hunting in its current form dates back to the era of enclosure and the sequestering of common land, which makes it barely as old as the United States of America, and 250 years on the English historical scale doesn’t make it a fucking tradition.
Fox hunting in its modern format has always been about class warfare. Like I said, it started with enclosure, which was a class-based fuck-you; it subsequently became an excuse for wanton trespass and intimidation against those who didn’t want a bunch of pissed-up chinless wonders turning their land into Aintree after the Grand National.
Read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight to get a sense of the genuine heritage and social position of fox hunting in England.
shano
Sorry pseudonymous, the earliest writings on the hunt always have sections on the ‘going’, where you are allowed to ride and when -depending on the season and the weather and livestock, gate management, jumping etiquette, avoiding crops, proper riding lines on every sort of land imaginable. A rider could get banned for breaking any of them.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
Prairie dogs and bubonic plague?!?!
Jebus, G_A, how do you think prairie dogs got bubonic plague- native to Eurasia- in the first place? Do you think that they built little prairie dog ships and went to visit their cousins on the steppe, then accidentally brought it back to the Americas?
pattonbt
@shano: I attempted to find any data to support any measurable economic impact of the fox hunting ban since 2004 in the UK and not one source had any hard data. There was data in the Burns report which said there could be some economic impact, but to date no measure of that impact, as far as I can tell with my admittedly meager google-fu skills, has been done or could be evidenced.
As a matter of fact, reviewing the current “repeal the ban” proponents views and arguments, economic hardship is barely spoken to, and without any hard data backing their limited claims.
It appears, from studies done, that people have adapted to the hunt ban changes and hunts continue on under the new rules with little to no measurable economic impact.
Granted, if you can find sources showing such massive economic impacts have resulted from the ban I will cede the point. But given what is out there now, I stick to my claim of “Billions? Really? Billions?”.
I do agree, from all evidence it appears to be an expensive practice, but one that is still done in the same numbers as before just under the bans new rules.
Bill D.
In an intact ecosystem with no small animal husbandry, sure. However, kill off the large predators (lions, wolves) and the foxes will get out of control, not merely killing chickens but also ravaging songbirds and whatever else they can eat.
Bringing wolves back to Yellowstone didn’t just put the elk under control. It also meant more small critters that had been suppressed by the coyotes. Once the wolves were established, coyotes were on the run and smaller critters benefited.
Large predators play important roles in ecosystems. Take them out and keep them out, and you may then need to actively manage the ecosystem to compensate for their absence.
Draylon Hogg
@Bill D – The largest land predator in the U.K. is the badger. Urban sprawl has seen foxes adapt and many of them now live in cities where they find most of their food rooting through bins.
@eemom – You are queen of the sweeping statement. My earlier post is 100% factual.
Banning fox hunting was an article of faith for the British left wing. It was a sop to the left from the most right wing Labour government ever. The Labour Party throughout the 80’s was riven with internal strife and splits, and it’s lack of unity made it easy pickings for the right wing press.
@Doug J – in response to your supposition that Blair banned fox hunting as payback for the worst of Thatcher’s excesses, that’s not the case. Within weeks of his landslide victory in 1997 Tony Blair had invited Thatcher to Downing Street. He constantly expressed admiration for her and he did not repeal a single one of the Tory anti trade union laws
Ghanima Atreides
@pattonbt:
Both.
The Hunt can’t ride without permission, there have to be gates and coops in the fenceline. pseudo is just wrong about toffs riding roughshod over farmers ground. The Hunt runs seasonally, September to March, so as not damage crops and young livestock. In England all the land is owned, there are not vast tracts of BLM land like out here in the West, or AFB lands like where the new front range hunt rides out of Peterson AFB. That is what I mean about a symbiotic relationship, a mutually beneficial relationship. Farmers bred and fed the bloodstock and hounds and terriers.
I dont think there has been any significant effect. Foxhunters just got around the ban, like my Irish friends. The only effect would have been some negative publicity, but as you point out foxhunters are a private clique, and rely on word of mouth and repeat visits…like visiting San Moritz and the French Riviera in season, and hunting with the Galway in the fall… it is an elitist sport for the wealthy, but the local people that are Hunt servants are often the sons and daughters of farmers.
They are the best riders. ;)
@Draylon Hogg:
Just like Bush and the ESCR ban in this country. It was a sop to the WECs. It did nothing to stop abortion or strike down Roe, but it lathered up the judeoxian base. The foxhunting ban saved zero foxes in the end. Now they just shoot them. Likely more are killed after being chased, because fewer get away.
People are stupid. I can’t believe balloonjuicers are getting lathered up over foxhunting in America the land of Factory Farm Beef, Chicken and Pork.
Why doesn’t PETA take on the factory farm industry in the US? Instead of fucking save-the-prairiedog and forcing slaughter horses to be trucked to mexico in horrific conditions.
Wanna know I’m mad? Its retarded PETA huggers like Linda Feathergill and the balloon juice commentariat that make factory farms and trucking slaughter horses the law of the land.
Draylon Hogg
@Ghanima Atriedes
I read Fast Food Nation years ago and the description of the giant factory farms was truly horrific. Both in terms of the animal welfare, the reckless disregard for worker safety and environmental impact.
Here in the UK there are factory farms but because our tiny island is smaller than most of your states we haven’t the room for it on the mega industrial scale of America.