As has been aptly demonstrated by every poster and almost every commenter on this blog, the Ryan plan is a political fuckup of the first order, with 58% opposition from a fairly unengaged electorate. But Republicans can’t back down — in this respect, they’re like the habitually philandering, verbally abusive, binge-drinking husband who wants to keep his long-suffering wife from heading out the door. Deep down, they know that they deserve the heartbreak that’s coming, but they’re desperately casting around for a way to keep the little woman in the kitchen where she belongs.
Enter the debt ceiling. Yesterday’s vote was telegraphed to the markets as a joke, but, like the philandering husband cleaning his guns on the kitchen table, it’s a preview of coming attractions. Republicans showed Democrats that they have a united caucus, and that half of the House Democrats will vote the way that Fox News scares them into voting.
So what will happen next is pretty dreary and predictable. Republicans will attach some kind of Medicare “reform” to the debt ceiling bill. They’ll pass it at the last possible minute, probably a week after Tim Geithner is hospitalized for nervous exhaustion, and a day or two after Paul Krugman is put under mental hygiene arrest. It will be carefully calibrated to be the worst thing that the Senate can pass and Obama can sign. And, just in the same way that the wife always goes back to her jackass husband for the sake of the kids, Obama will then sign it, for the sake of the country.
Once this grand bipartisan consensus is achieved, Republicans will call the bill that they passed the “Ryan plan”, tell their base that they won, and argue that the fuss over the original, real Ryan plan was just histrionics from the lieberal media. Their claims will be accompanied by a hosannah chorus from the usual DC media suspects, who will hail its bracing realism and shared sacrifice. By this time next year, the plan to replace Medicare with vouchers will be firmly ensconced in the memory hole, and the Bachmann/Cain ticket will be blaming Obama for the double-dip recession.
arguingwithsignposts
Is this just a preemptive strike on mclaren and wyldpirate?
Oh, and happy sunshiny morning to you, too. :)
4tehlulz
If only Obama was man enough to tell the terrorists shoot the hostages, this would never have happened.
Comrade Javamanphil
That’s an uplifting post. Don’t fall on me, ok?
dr. bloor
Yep. Nothing to add there, except the part where Obama gets taken down during one of the debates by some asshatted question about Weiner’s Weiner.
TheMightyTrowel
I’m starting to understand the Bush admin’s love of signing statements
damn good mr jam
Despair is boring.
Emma
I have been considering whether to leave the political internets behind for a while, and this post, as well as a quick scan of the ones below, just convinced me. Liberals are in full panic mode and the “Oh My God The Republican Murder Machine is Coming” is a little too wearying when you have troubles enough in your real life.
See you in August.
alwhite
I’d like to get mad and argue with you but you are probably right. With any ‘luck’ they can ride the wave, along with the ever worsening economy, till November ’12 & the Cain/Bachmann White House can finish the destruction of the country.
Thanks for the day brightener.
alwhite
@Emma:
why come back in August? what is going to change by then?
Ben Cisco
Maybe, just maybe, I’m being a sap here, but I’m not ready to go down the “We’re DOOMED, man! DOOMED I SAY!” path just yet. I think people who hadn’t been paying attention before are not only getting the idea that they can’t trust the NeoConfederates, but that THEY CAN’T TURN THEIR BACKS ON THEM. The notoriously short attention span of certain subsets of the American electorate is lengthening, if only to see just how these modern-day robber barons are going to try to frak them next.
Hal
So what else did you learn on your trip to the future?
Marc
There is a contingent on the left which has been repeatedly assuming that Obama WILL SELL US OUT ON SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE. It has been repeatedly shown to be false – all of these doomsday scenarios have been wrong. And, yet, they keep crying “wolf” over and over and over and over and over and over again. It’s ridiculous.
How about having some evidence before despondency sets it?
sdhays
I just heard Senator Pat Toomey from Pennsylvania on NPR say that not raising the debt limit wouldn’t be a catastrophe because the government could pay bond holders first, meaning Social Security recipients and “members of the armed forces” wouldn’t get paid while we’re paying the bond holders. I would really like to see them make this case louder: “There’s nothing to worry about, we just won’t pay the troops!”.
OzoneR
The funniest thing about comparing politics to a hostage situation is the argument “We don’t negotiate with hostages”
Except as a society, we do, all the time. Police actually call in special people called “hostage negotiators” to negotiate with them. And they usually give the hostage taker whatever he wants in reason to save the lives of the hostages before going in for the kill/arrest, or take him out with snipers. What is the equivalent of snipers in the political analogy?
Seriously, is there nobody on the left blogsphere in law enforcement?
Xantar
@Marc:
Because THIS time he’s actually going to get rolled and sell us out. The people crying wolf only have to be right once…
OzoneR
@sdhays:
Back during the government shutdown threat, my Facebook wall was packed with people complaining “Obama is going to not pay the troops!” “He’s threatening to hold back the troops pay to protect unions thugs” and so on. Even after Osama Bin Laden was killed, it was a “Shame on Obama, he wasn’t even gonna pay the SEALS two weeks ago!”
Toomey knows his party can get 45 percent of the country to believe its Obama’s fault Republicans didn’t vote to raise the debt ceiling.
mistermix
@Marc: I am not saying that OBAMA WILL SELL US OUT. I’m saying that some sort of minimal, probably innocuous Medicare reform will be put in the debt ceiling bill to fulfill the Republicans’ desire to claim to have “reformed Medicare”. It will be a big nothingburger designed to let them weasel out of the real Ryan plan. As a rational actor, Obama will sign the bill because the downside of giving the Republicans an out on the Ryan plan outweighs the downside of US default.
4tehlulz
@sdhays: Another one trying to convince himself this is not baaaaaad idea.
This reminds me of Iraq more and more….
OzoneR
@mistermix:
Anyone who thinks the 2012 election is going to be about the Ryan Plan hasn’t been paying attention to politics for the last 15 years. In a country with the attention span of a ficus, the 2012 election is going to be about something that happened in late summer 2012, not Spring 2011.
If the country goes into default, the country will forget about the Ryan plan faster than they forgot about Ruben Studdard, so it really doesn’t matter if they find a way out of it.
stuckinred
It don’t mean nuthin
drive on. . .
Rhoda
Good morning to you, too.
I don’t think Medicare is anything to worry about any longer for one reason and one reason only: it’s bad policy and polling worst than I’d imagine so even the stupidest of blue dogs knows they can’t deviate from the status quo and have a prayer of winning come Nov. 2012.
Napoleon
@stays:
block quotete>. . . meaning Social Security recipients and “members of the armed forces woulddn’t get paid while we’re paying the bond holders.
I really think there is a substantial chance of a default happening if Obama does not fold, and I think Obama is incompetent and will fold, but if he does not and there is a default he could kill the Republicans by tying the fact SS checks are not coming because the Republicans are holding it hostage to try and kill Medicare. The Rep base is in old people and something like that will cause so many of them to turn on the Republicans that it would just blow a whale size hole in tRepublicanlcoalitionion.
WereBear
The same President who tricked them into a budget that had what the Democrats wanted? The one they won’t talk about? The one Boehner looked so sad after?
The Ryan plan is the famous W-themed “double down” in my opinion. They’re losing it; so you shove all the chips on the table and call for another bourbon.
Feels good at the time. Doesn’t end well.
Bostondreams
@Napoleon:
What utter tripe. He decides to do what he has to do to preserve the integrity of this country and make sure that we don’t default, and this makes him incompetent? He has to make deals with 5 year olds and cowards and hostage takers, and this is his fault? You rather he plays the political game, allows us to default, and then things just are going to go so great for us and for him?
Explain, please, how this makes him ‘incompetent’.
Comrade Javamanphil
@WereBear: It ends even worse when the gambler has a gun and nothing left to lose…
“Yesterday, the Republican message to the president wasn’t subtle: we really will pull the trigger and then blame you for not paying the ransom.”
sdhays
@OzoneR: True. But Democrats might want to consider pointing out that people like Senator Toomey are talking about not paying the troops as a reason that this isn’t that big of a deal.
El Cid
Out of ignorance I ask if there have been efforts by the President to clearly speak about the fact that Republicans are threatening to push this country into default if they don’t get the Medicare cuts they desire?
Or would that be derided as not being mature or being partisan or whatever? Or just too confrontational, anyway?
I thought it was a good point made that we should not be making changes to programs which take years and big national debates to change in just a couple of weeks because of one party in the House.
You know, ‘how can we rush through’ and so forth.
I guess Republicans would respond how Obama passed the bailout & stimulus (no, the reality of the timeline doesn’t matter) and healthcare which was his massive package rammed down the throat of the American people.
I wouldn’t know if it was unwise, either, to contact some of the various big financial institutions we just saved to see how they feel about a potential default from the House jackasses, and suggest they air their feelings too.
I fear that by asking such questions, though, I’m demonstrating a complete unawareness of the correctness of any probable but as yet unknown decisions by Obama and/or the Democratic leadership.
tommybones
Here’s the kicker. When the compromise, medicare-gutting bill is put forth, dems will be forced to vote for it to avoid default and in doing so, lose the ability to point to the GOP gutting medicare, because they will have voted to do so themselves. The idiotic public wouldn’t know the difference.
Brilliant, really….
Nemesis
gop Medicare bailout is on its way.
stuckinred
@Bostondreams: You’d listen to what this jackass says?
Ash Can
@mistermix: So even if it all plays out exactly as you describe, why is this a “dreary” scenario, if any Medicare provision in the bill is innocuous and meaningless?
I prefer to hold off on prognosticating until I have a better idea of what the results of this week’s meetings between Obama and the two caucuses are. You know — the meetings that Republican freshman rep. Landry didn’t go to because he wasn’t about to be “lectured by
that nigraa president who wasn’t serious about reducing the deficit.”Bostondreams
@stuckinred:
Apologies. My mistake. I’m grading final exams in economics, and it is getting to me.
Napoleon
@Bostondreams:
Obama has signalled a willingness to fold in every single negotiation with them. If he had any brains months ago on something smaller and less important he should of drawn a line in the sand and held his postition, even if he lost that issue, because unless they think there are things he is willing to go to the mat for they will continue to push him, which is what they are doing.
No President in the history of this country has ever gotten anything but a clean debt limit raise, yet right off the bat he signaled he was willing to talk and now we are where we are. Only idiots negotiate against themselves.
OzoneR
@sdhays:
Now you’ve gotten too complicated for Peoria.
TJ
Dude, if the game is fixed then don’t play. If the debt ceiling isn’t raised the first people into the abyss are the wealthy and the corporations and their supporters. If Obama keeps playing then he must want to.
lol
You’d think after the chumping Obama gave the Republicans on the budget, the manic progressive left would cut him some slack.
But no, it’s still all “a real leader would stand up to the Republicans and let the country default” machismo. Of course, given the white affluency and entitlement of the Professional Left, they might feel they wouldn’t *really* suffer any consequences from a default.
horatius
@Bostondreams:
If Obama does what Napoleon says, then he’s truly incompetent.
However, I think Obama will let the Republicans demagogue until the last week and then let the panicky banks and corporate overlords squeeze Republican balls till they pass the debt ceiling.
Win-win.
Rhoda
@Comrade Javamanphil: They do have a LOT to lose; and the fact that Boehner is introducing a deadline NOW and one that is before the August time line we had been looking at means they know this is killing them on Wall Street. The Republicans need Wall Street money in 2012 and they won’t get it by defaulting and fucking with the bankers. They’ll sign a fig leaf, Boehner will cry in a caucus meeting again, they’ll support him, then bitch at home about how leadership is fucking up and when we have a republican president and retake the senate everything will be fine.
geg6
Well, unlike you, mm, and (apparently) most of the BJ commentariat, I refuse to predict that only the most pessimistic outcome is etched in stone. I am not an Obot, but I have seen this guy outmaneuver the GOPers time after time after time and I will wait and see what happens before rending my garments and saying Kaddish.
Chris
@Comrade Javamanphil:
A sarcastic line from that link:
And my response:
Brian R.
@lol:
No, that would require paying attention to reality rather than boldly unfolding yet another Doomsday Scenario from Alternate Earth.
OzoneR
@TJ:
and everyone else is going to do just fine, right?
OzoneR
@Chris:
sounds like most Americans I know. Who says the GOP isn’t the party of real Americans?
lol
@Rhoda:
So the timeline we’re looking at is:
1. Republicans & Obama announce deal that cuts Medicare entitlements to save the budget $100 billion.
2. John Boehner declares victory.
3. Professional Left loses its shit.
4. People actually look at the deal and it’s $10 billion over 10 years.
5. Professional Left keeps freaking out.
6. Further details reveal that most of the money “cut” was from programs already ending and rest comes from ending subsidies to pharmaceutical companies.
7. Professional Left ignores it and moves on to attacking Obama for planning to end Medicare and Social Security during his next speech.
sdhays
@OzoneR: Hey! I’m actually from west-central Illinois! We’re not all simple folk! ;-)
Brian R.
The GOP may be saying they’re confident that Obama would get the blame for a default, but recent polling suggests otherwise.
The public sees GOP foot-dragging for what it is, and doesn’t like what they’ve been doing. I have a hard time believing that if the shit hits the fan, they’d blame Obama rather than the GOP leaders they’ve already soured on.
El Cid
I would say that I’m very nervous about the outcome, primarily because of Congressional Democrats. But also for the possible compromise from the White House which *may* be damaging both policy- and politics-wise.
I’m *not* saying that I know or too strongly assume this will happen, ‘this’ meaning some change substantial enough to Medicare (and probably other programs less emphasized).
I’m not dismissing the notion that I’ll be somewhat or even substantially relieved.
I think it’s okay to discuss such nervousness. Maybe not — by even thinking such things, one becomes ‘manic progressive’ or the immature left or some such. Correct?
Irving
@OzoneR:
Nobody ever neogtiates with hostages. Hostage *takers*, maybe, but not hostages. Hostages are notorious for having limited negotiation tools.
Bullsmith
I think you’re being far to generous. The Republicans will campaign hard on the fact that they were responsible grown ups who saved medicare and social security while Democrats voted yet again to gut the precious social safety net and give the money to their union goons and George Soros.
Why wouldn’t they?
El Cid
Mitt Romney’s a dick.
I meant that in general.
Did major Democratic candidates say such a flat out thing of Bush Jr. or McCain? I hope so. Otherwise it’s another IOKIYAR.
OzoneR
@Chris:
More to this point. I had an argument with a friend of mine from the suburbs who said he voted to increase his school district’s budget, but refused to pay more in property taxes so he wanted a property tax cap in Albany. I reminded him that the difference in his district would be made up by the state subsidies which would be taken from the subsidies to the city schools, who need it more, and because Syosset High School needs more pianos and needs a new heater for their pool, high schools in the Bronx and Brooklyn will have to cut their after school programs, so now poor minority children will have no where to go after school except to gangs, where they will fall into a life of crime, only reinforcing the white suburban belief that poor minorities are all criminals.
He got mad and asked why he should be forced to give his hard earned money away to help those people and I said “Because you’re an American, and that means you have a responsibility to other Americans who are in need because that could have just as easily been you in their situation if not for some lucky breaks,” I told him he’s a hypocrite for walking around, waving an American flag like he’s so proud of his country and then turning his back, and even stealing, from other Americans
Didn’t get through to him.
That’s their MO, I want better, but I don’t want to pay more for it, so take it away from some poor schulp who didn’t step in shit.
4tehlulz
@lol: This. Though I have to wonder if not wanting to get rolled in front of his BFFs Ryan and Cantor will make the speaker obstruct like they’re’s no tomorrow.
stuckinred
@sdhays: Used to fish at Hamilton at lock and dam #19! Forgottonia is what the billboard West of Macomb said!
El Cid
@OzoneR: Russia piped sleeping gas into the theater Chechen terrorists were keeping hostages in. Sure, it killed a good number of the hostages, but omelets, eggs and so forth.
chopper
@OzoneR:
yes and no. the ryan plan is the gift that keeps on giving all the way through 2012 if the dems play their cards right.
if, however, the US defaults, i would figure all bets are off tho.
Bender
…like a idiot who sent a photo of their bulge to a co-ed (you guys probably don’t remember this story because 2 days ago, you all assured me that it was over, settled, debunked, etc., but I managed to find mention of it in a few papers today. And in the first segment of every TV news show.)
OzoneR
@El Cid:
Isn’t this the very definition of “both sides do it”
Comrade Javamanphil
@Rhoda: I hope you are right but they have a lot to lose if they follow this strategy as well. The crazy TP base will not accept this compromise depriving the GOP of its base energy. I don’t envy Boehner’s position as he is in a classic squeeze but that is what makes the situation completely unpredictable.
August J. Pollak
@sdhays:
Sweet, they just need to call up that awesome policy messaging team that did wonders for them about healthcare prior to the 2010 elections.
El Cid
@OzoneR: My quoting of it? I was being sarcastic. But Russia claimed that it saved far more than would have been otherwise, and also they don’t negotiate with Chechen terrorists.
Chris
@OzoneR:
Yep. That’s how you end up with red state America drowning in federal subsidies while still whining about “these people” and how they supposedly don’t work enough. (New York and California apparently exist to subsidize Middle America, but God forbid they reinvest any of their money into helping the folks in Harlem or East LA).
To quote another liberal (Taibbi), “[t]he average Tea Partier is sincerely against government spending — with the exception of the money spent on them. In fact, their lack of embarrassment when it comes to collecting government largesse is key to understanding what this movement is all about.“
El Cid
@Bender: Even had I argued (I haven’t actually discussed the matter, I don’t think) that the story had been debunked, I would never claim that it would disappear from the news.
chopper
@horatius:
right. this is one issue where obama’s side has wall street and the chamber at its back. this fact complicates matters for the GOP.
OzoneR
@El Cid:
They’re also Russia. They burn down their own cities, destroy their own crops and leave entire populations under siege for years and forget about them. This is not Russia.
OzoneR
@Bender: Did Anthony Weiner rape your children?
Marc McKenzie
@Napoleon:
Bull-f&#@ing s**t.
‘Nuff said.
4tehlulz
@Bender: Someone’s uncomfortable with all the talk of Republican treason.
Marc McKenzie
@geg6:
“I am not an Obot, but I have seen this guy outmaneuver the GOPers time after time after time and I will wait and see what happens before rending my garments and saying Kaddish.”
You know what? That’s exactly what has happened, pretty much the majority of the time. And yet, there’s still the wailing and the gnashing of teeth.
WyldPirate
@arguingwithsignposts:
Can’t stand the fact that I’m right about Obama and the rest of the Dems being a bunch of spineless eunuchs, can you arguingwithposts?
I’ll be around to say “I told you so” once the ineffectual ACA (big fucking giveaway to the insurance company thieves that won’t do squat to lower rate of med-cost growth) that is ripped top shreds by the Rethugs as well.
chopper
@lol:
that’s basically it. cut it and print it, we have a winner.
Bostondreams
@WyldPirate:
Yes. Because of course they wouldn’t touch single payer at all.
TJ
@OzoneR:
GOP Rule #0: Never, ever screw the money boyz.
chopper
@WyldPirate:
shouldn’t you be out building a doom cabin or something? of clay and wattles made? and a hive for the honeybee!
Ash Can
@Bender: Hang on tight to that story. It’s all you have.
bob h
What is even more awful to contemplate is that the debt limit will probably not be raised by enough to avoid a similar fight next year. This nauseating psychodrama will be a perennial feature of American politics.
Are the big brains on Wall St. glad they bankrolled these clowns in the last election?
Scott P.
Obama has done that time and time again but I guess somehow that isn’t enough.
Rhoda
@El Cid: I don’t see a problem with talking about your nervousness. I just think that after spending a year fighting and then passing the ACA which depended on Medicare and Medicaid to extend coverage it’s probably reasonable to believe that the President won’t fuck with his number one legacy.
Now, Social Security you would probably have a better case but I think the general freakout that took place coupled with the election year takes that off the table too.
Ash Can
@WyldPyrate: I hate to break it to you, but Gus Hall is still dead.
Steeplejack
@OzoneR:
Actually, “We don’t negotiate with hostages” has been Republican policy for at least 30 years. We have all been held hostage to their pandering to the lunatic right and to the corporate overclass.
I think you meant to say “We don’t negotiate with terrorists,” however.
beergoggles
@mistermix: And Republicans will use that to lie to people that Obama ended Medicare. We’ll be busy pointing out that vouchers would have ended Medicare but some slight change did not but you know and I know that the media would not be fact checking that story before spouting Republican talking points.
The only way to win that situation is to say that not touching Medicare and SS is better than anything else that could be done. Heck, Dems could add all kinds of goodies into the vote to raise the debt ceiling because the Republican’s Wall Street masters will make sure that vote will happen.
OzoneR
@Napoleon:
Oh bullshit, like I’ve been saying forever, you’ll just say he didn’t fight hard enough. It’s convenient for you to say “even if he lost an issue” because you know it’s not “possible” to lose, to lose means “didn’t fight hard enough” “gave up” “lost the message war”
Enough of this bullshit
Cacti
@WyldPirate:
Slow day on the Sons of Confederate Veterans boards?
Marc
@mistermix: Let’s say that Obama signs onto a vague promise of future budget cuts (which I expect, actually). An intelligent left-of-center response would be to call this a victory. I’d hope that you’d see it that way too. But the response that we’ll see from the professional hysterics, of course, is to sketch out all of the awful cuts to SocialSecurityMedicareMedicaid that this will require.
Which assumes, of course, that the vague promises (which don’t mention any of these programs) actually mean anything, which they won’t. But it is a handy way of stabbing Obama in the back by making the Republicans case for them. It’s not enough to keep the economy from the catatrophe of a default; any acceptable solution must involve ritually crushing the Republicans and humiliating them. Any face-saving gesture is weakness.
That’s the danger. The online left has so completely lost its moorings that they do things which help the republicans, all while talking on and on about Overton windows and messaging and etc. etc.
Tim, Interrupted
Like millions of other progressive liberals, I am just so sick to death of this president who I am supposed to believe is so heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelpless in the face of this entirely predictable Republican Machiavellianism.
I want a president who is endlessly and ruthlessly Machivellean himself in pursuit of progressive goals. O is not that president.
The idea that these political tactics only work one way because ….Fox News, is such bullshit.
burnspbesq
@Marc McKenzie:
“And yet, there’s still the wailing and the gnashing of teeth.”
Wailers gotta wail. It’s what they do.
Brian R.
@Marc:
This. A thousand times, this.
arguingwithsignposts
@Napoleon:
You mean like DADT?
Second, you seem to assume the GOP would ever stop their lbstructionism. Assumes facts not in evidence.
@WyldPirate: No, i can’t stand that you’re an insufferable True Progressive ™ with no actual policy ideas that can survive the hothouse of American politics.
OzoneR
@Tim, Interrupted:
NO ONE is that president and NO ONE ever will be
shortstop
@chopper: Those honeybees are all bitches and cunts you braindead limpwristed fuckwit. And fuck you, Boston is racist too and Nathan Bedford Forrest was a gentleman and and icon of honor if you bigoted asswipes could ever look beyond the minor slave trading and Fort Pillow stuff.
(I don’t think I got the popping vein of enraged insanity just right, but it wasn’t that far off.)
burnspbesq
@Tim, Interrupted:
“I want a president who is endlessly and ruthlessly Machivellean himself in pursuit of progressive goals.”
If that’s what you thought you were getting when you voted for Obama, you’re either delusional or even dumber than I previously thought you are. No one who was paying attention could rationally have believed that Obama was anything but a centrist technocrat.
stuckinred
@burnspbesq: Um, I think it was snark.
arguingwithsignposts
@burnspbesq: Has anyone ever called obama a pragmatist, or a realist? Just wondering if those words would apply?
Judas Escargot
@Ben Cisco:
This.
I really do believe that the 2010 elections made the GOP so overconfident that they pushed the Overton window as far right as it can go. (Yes, there are forces and subcultures that would happily move it even further to the right, but they’re outnumbered by the mainstream folks, and not backed by the money-people. Not going to happen). So that makes me happy in a way.
But… politics is laggy. It could take 5, 10, 20 years for this to actually translate into grown-ups implementing policy. And the demographics (and media) will still favor GOP messaging for quite awhile longer. So… how much damage will be done by the dead-enders in the meantime? And will we be left with a salvageable country, or will the looters have sucked all the juices out of it before finally retiring to Dubai or Costa Rica?
So when I worry and wail, that’s why.
Napoleon
@horatius:
That is his ace in the hole and the reason he should never give in to them. Ultimately he has a lot of leverage because of the money boys.
Tim, Interrupted
@burnspbesq:
Why always with the gratutitous personal insults, first thing with you? Yes, Obama is a soulless technocrat. Which is exactly why I did not vote for Obama. It was easy to smell the snake oil coming off Obama during the campaign, even thru a haze of noxious “Yes We Can.” I ceased voting altogether after John Kerry, for whose campaign I worked my ass off in Fort Lauderdale at the time, left his spine in his wife’s purse and managed to lose to GWB, despite GWB being a retarded war criminal. This is when I reached the logical conclusion that the Dems and Repubs, while not identical, are different sides of the same coin, balanced perfectly to keep the Oligarchs in power.
I will vote again when someone earns it. I don’t give it away in the back seat of every Ford Taurus like most around here.
WereBear
Way to rationalize your complete impotence!
OzoneR
@Tim, Interrupted:
So why should anyone give a fuck what you think?
Marc
Good to know that you’re on the other team Tim. I’ll read your comments accordingly.
Among the sane, however, what the republicans are doing at the state and national levels is amazingly bad and it’s possible to tell the difference between them and Democrats.
4tehlulz
@Tim, Interrupted: Your opinion is invalid forever, though I’m sure they might take you seriously at RedState.
4tehlulz
BTW, since there is no difference between the parties, I look forward to Obama running for re-election on a platform of nullification.
Strandedvandal
Tim is lazy. That is the only reason I can think of to decide that Republicans and Democrats are the same. Pure laziness. My momma always says, “You don’t vote, you don’t bitch.” Momma’s right son.
kdaug
@Tim, Interrupted:
Please tell all your friends to do the same.
tomvox1
If we default, the GOP will get it in the neck as far as public opinion goes. Remember the Gingrich government shutdown? I think (hope?) Obama knows this and also that the screws are being put to the GOPers by big business on this issue. The administration can afford to be passive and give ’em enough rope–it’s the GOP that is now reduced to issuing open threats if they don’t get what they want. If things go south with the debt limit, that will certainly lead to a very large paper trail proving who exactly screwed the pooch.
Either way, I know two things for certain:
1) I would not want to play poker against Obama (Why? Hint: telling jokes at a banquet hall while he orders a hit on America’s most wanted enemy).
2) This president is smarter than every member of the opposition party and probably all of the liberal blogosphere commentariat, as well. Not saying you will always like his decision making process but incompetent he is not.
And finally: for all the sturm & drang and gnashing of teeth, all signs point to an Obama landslide in 2012 where the House is retaken and gods willing we hold the Senate. How will the whiners spin that?
burnspbesq
@stuckinred:
Perhaps, but given what has ensued, perhaps not.
burnspbesq
@Tim, Interrupted:
Given the source, I think the only appropriate response to that is bemused laughter.
Judas Escargot
@Bender:
Good to see you right-wing shills dealing with the most important issues facing our country.
Let all that goodwill and fine character shine forth as a light and lesson to the rest of us, please.
Ash Can
Just as well. You’d probably hurt yourself.
Tim, Interrupted
@OzoneR:
So why should anyone give a fuck what you think?
Doesn’t matter to me if you do or not, my friend. I’m just stating my truth.
Oh, and that of a few million other former Democratic voters. And you know, if they want our votes, they know where to find them…and a few million votes might, you know, make a difference.
Just a thought. Which you can choose to consider or not thru your reflexive Obama defensiveness.
Fred
I’ll take that bet. Let’s hash out the terms. Time to put up or shut up.
OzoneR
@Tim, Interrupted:
How did I know your response was going to be “a few million other former Democrats feel the same way”
Power in numbers, even when you have to invent them. Obama didn’t need you or “them” in 2008, he won’t need you or “them” in 2012, and you’ll never get what you want, so live with it.
Tim, Interrupted
@kdaug:
I do we and we will.
The response here to disillusioned voters, of which there are a gazillion, is predictably and sadly childish.
Tim, Interrupted
@burnspbesq:
If you paid attention, you’d know that I usually resort to personal insults only after same have been lobbed at me repeatedly.
OzoneR
@Tim, Interrupted:
Oh now they are A GAZILLION!
arguingwithsignposts
@Tim, Interrupted:
I think i see where the problem is here.
4tehlulz
@Tim, Interrupted: British gazillion or American gazillion?
arguingwithsignposts
@Tim, Interrupted: And i’m sure you and wyldpirate will be dancing the “i told you so” dance while the nation burns, because there’s no difference AT ALL between dems and repubs.
Facepalm
Tim, Interrupted
@OzoneR:
OK. Cool. I’m good with that.
I consider it a good thing to place my standards high but achievable. You however, seem willing to settle for crumbs. That’s OK too.
Tim, Interrupted
@OzoneR:
You knew that because you know it’s true. If O can get re elected without us, that’s OK. Given the stupidity of the American public, I have no doubt he can pull another one over on them. These are a people who gave GWB a 90% favorable rating for quite some time, after all.
Marc
@OzoneR:
The lurkers agree with me in email!
danimal
The best play for Obama is to say virtually nothing, commit to virtually nothing and wait until the banks squeeze the GOP so hard their eyeballs hurt. Deprive them of oxygen in June and July by ignoring their stunts. They WANT us worried and in a tizzy so that the Blue Doggish types vote for anything that comes their way. By allowing the brinksmanship to continue, the pressure to make a deal will build on the GOP. Obama’s playing it right so far.
The ONLY g#ddamned thing the GOP base (aka Wall St) really wants is more money, and a country at risk of default will lose them a shit-ton of money. The GOP congresscritters may be crazy, their Wall Street supporters aren’t.
Tim, Interrupted
The smug chorus of abuse rained down on any former, disillusioned and CURRENTLY non-participating Dem voter here from the Obot Kool Kids is telling as to why the country is in such trouble.
And that’s…OK.
chopper
@Tim, Interrupted:
yeah, the smugness.
Midnight Marauder
@OzoneR:
The Ryan Plan is a microcosm of every terrible aspect of the modern Republican Party.
You’re an idiot if you think it doesn’t play an extremely major role in the 2012 election.
Strandedvandal
Ninja PUMA strikes! Oh Tim, you are too funny.
FlipYrWhig
I’m disillusioned! Look! Look at my disillusioned face! See? You’re not looking! Look! There are millions of people just like me and we know THE TRUTH and Obama won’t fight and it makes me angrysad, like this… See? Why aren’t you looking?
PWL
The worst part is–you’re probably right. Judging from what I hear, we’re in for more of Obama’s “bipartisanship” and “compromise”–in other words, more sellout and surrender.
Why he lets the Repbubs dictate the agenda is beyond me. Especially at a time when all the indicators show the economy is likely getting worse, not better–but no, its the “deficit crisis” (created by Republicans, by the way) which commends his attention…
I wish he would think it was wiser to act more like Winston Churchill–or even Bill Clinton– then like Neville Chamberlain….
Evilbeard
I can’t handle this anymore. If that happens I will probably stroke out.
Crawling into a hole for the rest of the year. See ya.
chopper
@Midnight Marauder:
the other thing is this: the ryan plan isn’t just about medicare. the ryan plan is a budget. it’s their healthcare reform package (privatize medicare), tax package (slash taxes for millionaires), spending/stimulus (slash spending on everyone else), etc etc all rolled up into one. it’s the whole gooper budget, and they’re hitching their wagons to it.
this is going to be a deal even next year. count on it.
Bender
@Judas Escargot:
Yes yes yes, it’s all a distraction from the Real Serious Issues Democrat Adults are facing. After all, the National Pixel Shortage demands that we not discuss more than one thing at a time!
Now let me eat my waffle, go on Oprah, play another 50 rounds of golf, and discuss Sarah Palin some more. ISSUES!
Midnight Marauder
@chopper:
The other thing?! It’s the main fucking thing! That’s why it’s the height of clown talk to put the ol’ short attention span bullshit on the table. We’re talking about the fucking annual budget, not some kind of incidental culture war policy proposal. The issue empirically can’t go away. It can’t.
Moreover, as people start to tune in and discover the madness we are all so well versed with, you’re going to argue that it’s going to cause the issue to somehow fall by the wayside? That’s fucking lunacy.
Absolutely. Very well said.
Joel
you know, some of us thought that the Democrats would have ACA in the rearview by 2010. There’s no way the Ryan plan disappears by next year, whatever the Republicans’ intentions.
El Cid
@OzoneR:
It’s not Russia, but clearly it should be. It would certainly teach the nation’s libruls lessons if we had the resolve to raze San Francisco and Madison WI and whatever other snooty librul place to the ground and plow salt into the soil.
Then they’d stop sneering at Real America in the Starbucks.
Judas Escargot
FTFY.
Tim, Interrupted
@FlipYrWhig:
I’m disillusioned! Look! Look at my disillusioned face! See? You’re not looking! Look! There are millions of people just like me and we know THE TRUTH and Obama won’t fight and it makes me angrysad, like this… See? Why aren’t you looking?
Why do you choose to interpret the fact that I stated my position to be the desperate cry for attention you pretend it to be? I have been posting here for years and don’t often mention what I’ve said in this thread. It couldn’t be that you simply want me to SHUT UP about my disillusion altogether, could it? So that you can pretend all is well in Obamaland? That the millions like me in the Dem party don’t exist? Why does the simple fact of my position get you so beside yourself? Don’t like your BJ hot house being…cooled with reality?
Just thoughts…pay no mind.
Tim, Interrupted
@PWL:
Oh PWL…we all know you stating your opinion of Obama is merely a desperate cry for attention from the BJ Obots. Silly person.
Frankensteinbeck
@Tim, Interrupted:
Unfortunately, and without insults, your few million other voters don’t exist. I’m sorry, they just don’t. You are a handful. At best. Obama’s polling numbers in the more liberal wing of the party are fabulous. His poll numbers overall in the whole country sound bad but are actually high even for popular presidents. You are very loud in your unhappiness, but you are not many. Voter affiliation didn’t change in 2010, and the swing in voting enthusiasm was somewhere between ‘standard’ and ‘backlash because the Democrats kicked ass in Obama’s first term’, historically.
EDIT – To explain that more, Democrats voted at the usual low midterm-when-our-party-is-in-power levels. Republicans voted very high. Presumably because they wanted to reverse the ACA, although interpretations are always up for debate.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@PWL:
Bill Clinton couldn’t get a Health Care Bill passed in a Democratic-controlled Congress, and “caved” on things like Welfare Reform.
Scott P.
Oh get off your fucking high horse. There’s no nobility in not voting. That you think so just shows you have no idea what liberalism is all about. You see, there is an election whether or not you vote, and we get a President whether or not you vote. And Senators, and Representatives, and Assemblymen. And by not voting, you’re essentially declaring that you’re all right with somebody else making the decision for you.
Since the beginning of this country, liberals have been fighting, sweating and dying to make sure that everyone has the right to vote. First the landless, then women, then African-Americans. But you’re just tossing all that away.
Your vote is renewable, you know, you’re not marrying the candidate. And you could always work to get better candidates on the ballot, to promote those you want to see leading the nation. Or you could just sit in your basement basking in a puddle of self-importance. Or something.
Mike in NC
@Bender:
What about giving Chris Christie a blowjob? Or is that only on your Wednesday schedule?
chopper
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill:
see also: DADT, DOMA, deregulation…clinton caved on everything.
shortstop
Not reading Tim except accidentally is a win-win situation for all involved. Never one for self-examination of any sort, he gets to pretend that we naive, echo-chambering submissives just can’t handle his brand of courageous, truth-telling iconoclasm (seen most often in middle-aged Ayn Rand devotees and the world’s 17-year-olds) and we don’t have to be bored stiff by the same. Everyone’s happy.
TenguPhule
Of course this whole horrible scenerio could be avoided if the CIA would just quietly arrange for about fifty GOP house and senate members to have some fatal accidents.
NR
@Bostondreams:
As Paul Krugman said, if you’re operating on the principle that the U.S. defaulting on its debt is an unthinkable outcome, and must be avoided at all costs, then you have ceded all power to those willing to bring that outcome about. You’re saying that no matter what the Republicans want, we have to give it to them in order to avoid default. In effect, you are saying that even though the Republicans only control one half of one branch of government, they actually control the entire government just because they’re willing to send the U.S. into default if they don’t get what they want.
Obama has to draw a line in the sand and hold that line. Otherwise, he might as well move out of the White House and hand the keys to the Tea Party.
AxelFoley
@Marc:
Thank you.
Fuck, no wonder why the Left gets their ass kicked by the Right.
OzoneR
@NR:
US defaulting on its debt IS an unthinkable outcome and must be avoided at all costs.
NR
@OzoneR:
Then like I said, you have just ceded all power to the Republicans and reduced Obama to a mere figurehead. Congratulations.
AxelFoley
@lol:
Bingo. He’s basically kicked the GOP’s ass since taking office, but the
pussyified, excuse me, the professional left always finds something to bitch and moan about.OzoneR
@Midnight Marauder:
than those aspects will be the issues, not the Ryan plan, it’ll be some other stupid thing they do next year.
FlipYrWhig
@AxelFoley: It’s not real “despondency” anyway. It’s just posturing. It’s a threat that the very important Whiny Iconoclast demographic is going away unless they get exactly the right kind of stroking. It’s approximately as tedious and played-out as that friend everyone has who says very proudly that she doesn’t even own a TV.
Tim, Interrupted
@shortstop:
Works for me. God knows your input is as predictable as it is worthless.
Chuck Butcher
Those who are trumpeting the DADT compromise might look at the rest of the picture which is that it included NOT raising revenues with the easily foreseen outcome that the deficit would be worse.
I do happen to think DADT really sucked and that START was important – but there was a trade made and it handed bullets from your gun to the opposition’s gun. Everybody knew this.
I’m going to have lunch with one of my friends who is even more hard core left than me. We probably ought to avoid this topic so as to not ruin appetites.
Tim, Interrupted
@Scott P.:
This is such horseshit. By withholding my vote, I signal that no candidate meets my minimum requirements for credibility or decency. McCain offered me a shit sandwich. Obama offered me a shit sandwich with sweet relish. From the shit all over your teeth I can see that you enjoy eating shit as long as it is garnished to your liking. Me, not so much.
Also, too, furthermore, and additionally: It is HIGHLIARIOUS that people who tell me I HAVE to vote or STFU, also tell me, with no self awareness whatsoever, to get off of MY high horse. Please
Let it be noted that I voted in every prez election from 1976 thru 2004. Take your citizenship lectures and shove them up your voting booth, dimwit.
Tim, Interrupted
@NR:
hahahahahahahahahaha…
OzoneR
@Tim, Interrupted:
so then why don’t you run yourself?
otherwise, go away, here, we’re interested in working with what we got and molding candidates closer to what we want, rather than sitting around and waiting for Mr. Perfect to come along while bashing everyone who isn’t.
There are 6 billion people in the world with 6 billion different points of view. If you’re sitting around waiting for someone who fits your mold, you’re never going to find it, because here’s a hint; IT’S YOU and nobody else.
so either run yourself or shut the hell up.
Thoughtcrime
Too bad we don’t have a president that knows the value of working secretly behind the scenes with a trusted team to plot and execute plans to defeat our enemies.
eemom
hmm. Why does it not surprise me that tiny tim is a proud member of the most contemptible species of humans on earth?
Cuz that is what the “I’m not voting because I CARE” crowd are. No exceptions.
Tim, Interrupted
@OzoneR:
Oh. I’m sorry. Is this the Democratic National Committee Blog? I did not know that. I thought it was blog hosted by a semi-recluse, admitted misanthrope, admitted “idiot” former Republican who likes insane dogs as well as sweet ones, gardening, and mopping in the nude; primarily for the purpose of featuring pics of dog excrement and obsessing over Andrew Sullivan. But I’ll double check to be sure…
I love the “go away” and the employment of “we” in your reply here. Classic attempt to shun and exclude non members of the imagined in-group.
Ozone, were you a Mean Girl wannabe in high school?
Tim, Interrupted
@eemom:
I will continue to love you, eemommy, because I know you cannot love yourself.
Midnight Marauder
@OzoneR:
Those aspects are inherently linked to the Ryan Plan. There’s no separating them. That’s the entire framing of the issue.
This really isn’t that hard to understand.
eemom
@Tim, Interrupted:
you are as clueless as ever, timmeh. It’s not me, it’s you.
genghisjon
http://youtu.be/YLM-ojIZp4s Kinky Freidman and the texas jewboys tellz it like lt is,or should be?snark.
AxelFoley
@Tim, Interrupted:
Then shut the fuck up.
AxelFoley
@FlipYrWhig:
Some sad shit, ain’t it?
Tim, Interrupted
@eemom:
No, it’s you. Definitely.
Tim, Interrupted
@AxelFoley:
hahahahaha…original. Not gonna happen.
OzoneR
@Tim, Interrupted:
No, it’s a blog for voters, who vote; Democrat, Republican, Green, Independent, whatever, but people who actually fucking vote.
Tim, Interrupted
Any of you Obot geniuses care to define “Iconoclast” in the context you think you’ve been using it within this thread?
Thanks.
Tim, Interrupted
@OzoneR:
Oh. I’m sorry. I’m unable to find that definition in any of Cole’s various lists and whatnot. Could you find it and link for me?
Thanks.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
As I and others predicted, the hostage demands by Republicans and other corporatists have increased with every capitulation by President Obama, the leader of the Democrats. The only way to negate the power of this hostage taking is to never negotiate on that basis. If the hostage taker is foolish enough to actually “kill the hostage” then you can guarantee that they will never be in a position to take another one. Of course, that will require President Obama and his Democrats to play “hardball” and to be very loud and very mean while doing so, and to come to the aid of all the injured afterward.
.
.
AxelFoley
And now this clown shows up.
Tim, Interrupted
@AxelFoley:
So…it upsets you when others who do not agree with you post their comments? Is that correct? Perhaps you should petition Cole for the banning of anyone who dares to express opinions other than those which echo yours. That might be a good place for you to begin.