I don’t see myself as a pacifist, not yet, but I think that anyone who is serious about honoring those who have died in wars should at least consider this proposition:
I’m not sure exactly when I started seeing myself as a pacifist. It’s one of those words which to Very Serious People means “you like it when the bully punches you in the face don’t you dirty fucking hippie!” But what I’ve learned over the increasingly many years of my life is that the existence of just about any war in which the US is involved means that the Very Serious People, with all the power they have, fucked up completely. Even if that war is, in some sense, “necessary,” it still means that the people who run this place screwed up and at the very least should resign in shame before sending people off to kill and be killed. But they don’t. They go on Meet the Press to talk about how awesome they are.
maye
Watched a little indie movie last night called “The Messenger” and was reminded how much I hate the “glory” of war. I especially hate the war industry and the militarization of American culture. Thank you for providing me a forum to be cantankerous on Memorial Day.
Loneoak
A mass seppuku of mid-2000 politicians and media figures would go a long way to providing a sense of closure …
arguingwithsignposts
DJ, just out of curiosity, why the ‘not yet’?
Doug Harlan J
@arguingwithsignposts:
I feel myself moving in that direction.
Slugger
This weekend I watched the movie “We were Soldiers once and Young,” based on a book of the same name. It recounts the first major US/PAVN engagement in Vietnam. In the movie Col. Moore ( played by Mel Gibson ) is asked by his daughter why there are wars.
I don’t remember his answer. The correct answer is that people are stupid and willing to piss away the lives of young men for things that don’t matter twentyfive years later.
Villago Delenda Est
Fuck war, and Fuck the Army.
I say this as a veteran, btw…something that Dick Cheney cannot claim to do.
Villago Delenda Est
Fuck war, and Fuck the Army.
I say this as a veteran, btw…something that Dick Cheney cannot claim to do.
Citizen_X
I am not a Very Serious Person, by any means, but I have this naive idea that there may be some vast, unexplored territory between “pacifist” and “Let’s make war the first, go-to option, forever and ever, amen.”
Loneoak
@Doug Harlan J:
For me, there is a vague barrier between being a pacifist for philosophical reasons and being a de facto pacifist because every war is empirically a fucked-in-the-head failure, as you describe. I feel that saying ‘I am a pacifist’ only denotes the former, whereas I would describe myself along the lines of the latter.
Linnaeus
@maye:
I deplore those things as well, and one need not be a “pacifist” to do so. Unfortunately, that’s the label one gets tarred with sometimes.
Fred
War is always the decision of last resort. Unless you are a Rethug. In that case it is the answer to just about any foreign policy problem.
PopeRatzy
I served in the military but never went to war (thank whatever deity). I believe the best way we can ever support the troops is to never get them killed, especially when the old white men in Washington start beating their drums for war.
Raenelle
Necessary!?!? Almost always, what wars are necessary for is so our elites can avoid difficult domestic issues. The reason for war is that it is “unpatriotic” to criticize your government in time of war. So, war is just a really, really nice way to exchange praise for criticism. And to avoid all those harsh decisions about a fair deal for the American people. Oopsy daisy, we don’t have time right now to do what I promised in my campaign. That’s what makes war necessary.
We invaded the Philippines because, though the Spanish government had granted all our demands re Cuba, McKinley declared we had “exhausted” diplomatic channels. We invaded Vera Cruz because the Spanish government refused to give our sailors, who were not even mishandled, a 21-gun salute. On and on and on. The national honor. Humanitarian missions. Spreading democracy. Self defense. All those things also have the really, really neat benefit of getting our elites out of having to deal with us.
Rich man’s war; poor man’s fight. So it always was.
Frankensteinbeck
I’m one of the least anti-war people here, but this guy’s basic point is sound. War is at best the lesser of two serious evils, and if that’s the best choice you’ve got things are fucked up. Anybody who cheerleads, who WANTS war, is… I’ll go with ‘juvenile’ because I dislike swearing in anger. And a lot of the pundit class are jingoistic moth- children.
My momentary pedantic bit of perspective: the idea that war is anything BESIDES glorious and good is roughly 100 years old and dates back to WWI being such a mess nobody felt like they’d scored any points. Before then, saying things like ‘war is Hell’ made you an uncouth freak like Sherman.
Countme In
You are all pacifists now?
Now?
Just as we approach having to defend our country against the murderous confederate vermin in the Republican Party?
PeakVT
I don’t know if outright pacifism is a tenable position to take, but clearly the bar for using military force needs to be set a lot higher in this country. And any action somehow needs to involve an upfront sacrifice by somebody other than the troops and their families. Over the last decade Republicans and conservative Democrats have effectively shielded most of the country from any immediate consequence of the two (and now three) ongoing military conflicts.
Mike in NC
@Fred:
Matter of fact, The Atlantic did a profile of John McCain in the fall of 2008. The caption on the cover photo was “Why War is His Answer”.
Amanda in the South Bay
I see that Raymond Odierno will be the new Chief of Staff of the Army. I seem to remember he got a lot of criticism for the way he commanded his troops early on in OIF. I guess he learned to play the political game, got his act cleaned up, and learned to fellate Thomas Ricks.
Oh, BTW fuck Ricks and his Iraq war whore supporters, who’ve fetishized Odierno, Petraeus, and the rest of the gang of scholar generals.
Brian S
I can’t say I’m a pacifist because I do think there are times when use of force is necessary and even moral. Those times are rare, but they do exist, and so I’m not willing to go the full pacifist route. But I am a believer that we ought to go into any military conflict with a sense of remorse, not one of excitement.
Amanda in the South Bay
@PeakVT:
to be fair, I don’t think our involvement in Libya even remotely arises to the level of Iraq or Afghanistan.
Citizen Alan
Personally, I believe in the theory espoused in Goldstein’s Manifesto from 1984: The true purpose of modern warfare is simply to deliberately squander the nation’s productive output without creating any corresponding improvement in the general standard of living. Because doing anything else with the nation’s productive output would almost inevitably improve the general standard of living, and that would result in a more educated populace that was harder to manipulate and control.
Chad N Freude
The air is full of tributes to “those who gave their lives” for whatever. They did not give their lives; their lives were forcibly taken from them. I really hate that phrase.
RossInDetroit
War is a symptom of the moral failing of humanity. It’s the default when we can’t get things done by any other means. And that’s a pretty huge fail.
celticdragonchick
Loosely attributed to Leon Trotsky.
AnotherBruce
@Linnaeus: What is unfortunate is that the term “pacifist” is somehow worse than the term “war monger”. War mongers get a lot more air time than pacifists do in this great nation of ours.
Eric U.
I can’t consider myself a pacifist. However, the standard for releasing the might of the U.S. war machine has become far too lax. Armies are made for killing people, that’s what they do. So there better be a damn good reason for it. Iraq was a war crime, Bush and Cheney should be prosecuted for it.
I was deployed to Desert Storm. That is an example of a war that didn’t have to happen, but I still don’t think it’s meets the standard of a war crime. Here we have a war that started because we failed to convince Saddam we would whack him if he attacked. Then after it was over, he won the negotiations. If war is the interim period between the breakdown of negotiations and the resumption of negotiations, Desert Storm is the benchmark for failed wars.
Mary G
@PopeRatzy: This. We could make a lot of things better in this country if we weren’t sending so many of our best young men and women off to die or be psychologically maimed for no good reason at all. I live near a military base and get accused (by old white Republicans, not the soldiers) of “not supporting our troops.” It makes me sick.
I am pretty much a pacifist, I am definitely against the three wars we are in now. But I didn’t mind Bush the Elder’s war against Iraq, because Hussein had invaded Kuwait. The aftermath, when people were telling the Iraqis to rise up against him, and they did, and we shrugged our shoulders, that was horrific.
Villago Delenda Est
Even if you come back from a war alive, in one piece, you’ve already given your life for your country.
Hell, if you sign up for the military in peacetime, you’ve traded away one life for a very different one.
Let’s be honest about this, for a change.
FeFiFo
Off topic, but is anyone else getting those atrocious anti-Planned Parenthood ads on the front page in between topic posts? I know my tax money is going to murder children already, but they’re not little white American children.
Frankensteinbeck
@PeakTV:
If it helps, i checked recently and it seems like the last American death in Iraq was in January. I loathe the Iraq war, and it might still be a money sink, but we aren’t at war there anymore in any combat sense.
Just Some Fuckhead
Permawar is volunteer-only, free and enhances our image around the world. What’s not to love?
RossInDetroit
One side of my family is Amish. A distant ancestor was the only survivor of the Northkill Amish massacre by native Americans. The Northkill Amish were armed but were prevented by their religion from shooting people so they were basically wiped out.
I wouldn’t go as far as to see my friends and family slaughtered for a principle but I sure do hate war.
WereBear
@FeFiFo: Yes, and I wish some kind of “truth in advertising” would apply to these atrocious ads. No one is murdering six-month-olds, and it’s outright lying to say so.
I know it’s cliche, but I’ve observed Memorial Day, in part, by reading up on WWII; we were attached by crazy people with sick cultures behind them. I think more pro-active steps would have smothered this monster in the cradle; and ironically enough, it was Republicans who almost undercut us enough to have never stopped it.
So sometimes war is necessary; but not regarding it as a step of last resort creates far more mayhem than it should.
Ruckus
@PopeRatzy:
I joined and served in a time of war but did not get sent to the fighting. I didn’t do this willingly. I did it because of the draft. Now I am an old(er) man. And I feel more strongly than ever that war is most often an old man’s armchair exercise. And I say fuck that.
I am reminded about a scene in West Wing when CJ calls a general in to read him the riot act over speaking out. He said it takes courage to send men to war. I call bullshit. It takes courage to stand out, to stand against the herd, the bullies, the war mongers, not to go along with them. That’s easy for too many.
Pacifist. Liberal. These words mean something. They are good things not bad. I refuse to wear them like a badge of dishonor. I wear them. And I’m glad.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Ruckus:
Same here. Sometimes I joke about how I wrote the book on serving during the Bush years and how to avoid getting sent overseas.
There’s definitely a part of me that thinks just about every person should know that joining the military involves potentially fighting and doing awful things-its just common sense. But at least here in the US, there’s an awful lot of people who join who do so out of financial necessity, or they are from rural and poor parts of the country and…well, I’m pretty sure that most of the Iraq and Afghanistan vets who are having problems aren’t the idealistic Ivy League ROTC types who want to bridge the gap between elite academia and the military.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Ruckus:
Same here. Sometimes I joke about how I wrote the book on serving during the Bush years and how to avoid getting sent overseas.
There’s definitely a part of me that thinks just about every person should know that joining the military involves potentially fighting and doing awful things-its just common sense. But at least here in the US, there’s an awful lot of people who join who do so out of financial necessity, or they are from rural and poor parts of the country and…well, I’m pretty sure that most of the Iraq and Afghanistan vets who are having problems aren’t the idealistic Ivy League ROTC types who want to bridge the gap between elite academia and the military.
The Ancient Randonneur
I wish a muthaf*cka would try to punch me in the face.
You can count me in the “not a paficist … set the bar higher” crowd mainly because people like Newt Gincgrich and Andrew Breitbart still live and breathe. I would gladly send them and their progeny to “pay the ultimate price”, as it were.
cleek
what if they held a fuck war but nobody came ?
Spaghetti Lee
I was at a memorial day service at a local VFW Hall this morning, and spending so much time at this blog and similar ones, I was attuned to which speeches by the chief of police and this and that veteran were basically promotions of militarism, but I can’t get mad at them-I get mad at the political culture that tells them that’s the only way to be. But as some have pointed out, it seems like a good way to remember and honor the troops is to not send them off the get killed for petty and false reasons. That shouldn’t be so controversial.
Peter Roskam was actually scheduled to be there, but didn’t show. Wonder what rabble-rousing he would have done, and if I would have had the guts to approach him afterwards and tell him what an S.O.B. he is.
Snailbiscuits
Maybe if the All Volunteer Force was done away with and we went back to the draft more American families would be affected by the wars. Once more than 1% of the population has to care there might be less of an inclination to use the military instead of diplomacy.
PeakVT
@Amanda in the South Bay: No, not directly. But this country played an important role at the beginning, without which the conflict would have have escalated. We’re involved in it.
Spaghetti Lee
@The Ancient Randonneur:
I wish a muthaf*cka would try to punch me in the face.
Can I nominate this for a new rotating tagline?
MikeJ
@Snailbiscuits:
For some reason this sounds a lot like “if we made abortion illegal there would be fewer unplanned pregnancies.”
Jay
DougJ, your posts ripping David Brooks & Co. are not only hilarious, they are also brilliant, so I was surprised that you re-posted this whiny, all-too-vague rant from Atrios, whose beef has long been, above all else, that liberals are underrepresented on television and talk radio, as well as in newspapers.
It is true that liberals are underrepresented in the media, but I don’t think Atrios here makes a strong connection between that and his Pacifism. For instance, when he writes that “(Pacifism is) one of those words which to Very Serious People means ‘you like it when the bully punches you in the face don’t you dirty fucking hippie!’ ” he comes across as someone who is more concerned with being insulted than figuring out what his own views mean to him. What, to Atrios, is a Pacifist, and what would he do if he were punched in the face? By becoming a Pacifist, it seems Atrios is committing himself to a world in which one less person is willing to punch someone else in the face. That’s okay, but on a much larger level, I still think there has to be a place for Just War Theory because Atrios’ commitment alone will not eliminate the presence of those who go beyond punching others in the face and into the realm of crashing planes into buildings.
Finally, when Atrios sweats people “screwing up,” he cops out by not naming names. I wouldn’t have a problem with seeing Cheney take the perp walk. That’s an easy call. But how far would Atrios go? To Sec. Clinton? Amb. Rice? Samantha Power?
It’s one thing to say “F- War” in the sense that the act of fighting in a war does profound physical and psychological damage to combatants and civilians alike; I’ll join in saying “F- that,” but the question of holding civiliant suit-wearers accountable is a tricky one.
Spaghetti Lee
@Snailbiscuits:
I’ve thought about this before, and it might be effective in a brutal sort of way, but isn’t it throwing away young lives just to make a political point, which is what opponents of permawar military culture should be avoiding?
Amanda in the South Bay
@MikeJ: No, its more like “If men could get pregnant, there’s be a lot few anti-abortion activists.”
Its a nice sentiment, but I’m convinced that the more affluent you are, the more likely you’d be able to avoid any sorta draft.
Brian S
@Snailbiscuits: Or how about we make the military the size it needs to be to be self-sufficient again instead of paying companies to cook meals and do laundry and so on? That makes it so more people are affected personally by deployments and the like, which is what we’re after.
stuckinred
@MikeJ: Really? Spreading the military burden through all socio-economic classes would be like banning abortion? Hmm.
Brian S
@stuckinred: You missed the point, which is that if you’re wealthy enough, you can dodge the draft/get an abortion no matter what the law says.
El Cid
Anyone who is not a pacifist becomes too close to pacifism when they do not support a war which you believe is clearly justified.
parsimon
I’m not a pacifist, yet, either, chiefly because there are times at which intervening with, yes, military might, is simply the morally necessary thing to do. I think of Bosnia here.
Just war theory has a lot of sensible things to say about this.
Edited to fix the grammar in the first paragraph.
stuckinred
@Brian S: Got it. I sorta re call that from Ft Campbell, 1966.
Snailbiscuits
I know it is not a perfect answer but I feel that the only way to end these wars is to make a decent sized portion of the population have a reason to care. It would be great if Washington just woke up and realized how stupid it is to be throwing all these lives and money down a never ending sinkhole. Then all the money not being spent on foreign wars could be used here at home.
MikeJ
@stuckinred: No, reducing the rights of the people affected to get a societal good is how they are similar.
No analogies are perfect. I do not claim this one is.
there are plenty of people here who were drafted. I’m glad I never was. I wouldn’t want to be sent into a meat grinder so somebody else could feel pure about a war.
noodler
And then these Very Serious People, decide to make the war(s) a whole big USG shootin match, with all of the services included, plus dea, doj, dhs, and all manner of civilian suits, (dont forget the genius interns from heritage that staffed the CPA), and Contractors to run the mess halls, bringing over basking robbins and pizza hut, (staffed with TCN’s from bangladesh) add in a few hundred brits too, becase we can con them into seeing our side, and a few tens of danes or norweigans and others, and we got us a coalition (google earth bagram to get a little look see). Then dont ask anyone stateside to share or sacrafice at all, Not even a victory garden, scrap metal drive, or bond drive at all. Oh, and put the bill on an emerg approp, because it’s not like we can plan in the budget for a war we’ve been fighting for ten years. These Very Serious People want it both ways. One of the advantages of Power is the restraint in using it. Now that is power. I’ve learned that lesson. (Navy since 87)
stuckinred
@MikeJ: Are you saying that military service reduces the rights of people? My answer to that is absolute service, military or otherwise, for everyone. Everyone, not almost everyone.
eta
I know, I know, nevah hoppin GI!
stuckinred
It military day at the Braves game so they just played Born in the USA between innings!
Got in a little home town jam
Sent me off to Vietnam
Gone to kill the yellow man
I wonder if they’ve edited that out like they do “We’re all Wasted” on Baba O’Riley at Georgia Football?
James E. Powell
Memorial Day should be an occasion for an annual public reading of Smedley Butler’s War is a Racket.
It pretty much sums up how I feel.
kdaug
The “perfumed princes” at the Pentagon (HT: Col. David Hackworth, RIP) keep sending the boys to war because a.) they don’t know them – they’re numbers on a PowerPoint slide, and b.) there’s money to be made, boys! Money to be made!
Nellcote
Tonight The History Channel’s Memorial Day programming includes a retelling of Gettysburg.
khead
I’ve always been kind of a pacifist. When I was a kid, my father told me, “Never hit anyone in anger, unless you’re absolutely sure you can get away with it.” I don’t know what kind of soldier I’m gonna make, but I want you guys to know that if we ever get into really heavy combat… I’ll be right behind you guys. Every step of the way.
kdaug
@khead: Behind us yelling “Charge!”
NobodySpecial
I’m a pacifist for myself. I can only control my actions.
War can be necessary, but in most cases it’s just one side bullying the other, usually for something the other has.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Villago Delenda Est: Thank you for this! I’m so sick of my anti-war politics being assumed to be anti-troops. Whereas what I would really wish for our men and women in uniform is that we elect a civilian leadership worthy of their commitment and sacrifice. (Meaning not eager to run head first into the next war opportunity that presents itself.)
Not sure if that is possible in America.
khead
@kdaug:
Look, if you don’t want me in your Army, kick me out, but get off my back.
Dhouda
@Loneoak
I don’t know that there needs to be a sharp distinction between philosophical and empirical reasons for pacifism. I’m in the former camp, but I’m happy for whatever allies I can find- it’s far more useful to agree on ‘people not dying’ than argue specifics over why we aren’t killing them off. Wars can be morally wrong and failures all at the same. It’s a big tent, etc.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Amanda in the South Bay: But the vast majority of the armchair generals pining for war (Republican voting middle class) would have fewer opportunities to avoid war like W. did. And it might be nice for them to have to worry about *their* kids for a change. Instead of being completely undisturbed by the deaths of others’ kids.
Linda Featheringill
I am a pacifist. I hate pain and suffering and violence and grief and all that stuff.
I am a liberal. I believe that I am my brother’s keeper, at least to some degree.
I’m other stuff, too, but we won’t go into that.
Question guys:
What’s with the whimpy, wishy-washy, I’m-not-pacifist-but-I-don’t-like-war nonsense? Geez, guys.
Ruckus
@khead:
Clinger!
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
Make Love, not war. Also too, I’d like to buy the world a Coke.
.
.
FlipYrWhig
Um, I don’t think I’ve ever known anyone who doesn’t hold Atrios’s opinion. It’s pretty much literally the least a person can say about warfare: it’s bad because it can so easily go wrong. No shit, Sherlock. Why does he deserve credit for another complaint about how the Serious People in his head are being mean to him, affirming his status as the world’s biggest passive-aggressive self-styled “hippie”?
Smitty
This discussion keeps reminding me of the late Isaac Asimov: “Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.”
khead
@Ruckus:
Do you think I’m officer material? Come on! I’m in good shape, I’m walking tall, I’m looking good….
Leo Strauss
Doug, every war will always have mistakes, FUBARs and worse whether by US or others.
Pacifism imo at least transcends that objection. True empathy, love in its purest form, moral/spiritual impulses – all compel resistance to mere violence there – imo. As humans connect more across ethnic and geographic constraints this resistance will only grow.
My take from your post is that the pacifism you’re raising includes all that but adds the additional critique that the violence contemplated historically proves to be an unsuited means to the alleged ends.
Even assuming arguendo the claims made by jingoists, nationalists, self-interested parties or those lost in abstraction. Would be with that pov for plus 70% of the way.
Do make exceptions here that fall more in the Michael Walzer camp re Just and Unjust War. There are manifestations of human evil that demand resistance including war imo, although they are rare.
burnspbesq
@Brian S:
That fact that that has been true in the past does not mean it is necessarily true. Large numbers of countries have successfully implemented universal service.
Whether you call it universal service or a draft, I do think that it would be more difficult for an American president to commit troops to combat if our forces were whiter and more suburban and more middle-class. White, middle-class, suburban moms vote, and they aren’t eager to see their sons and daughters go in harm’s way for what seems like no good reason.
burnspbesq
@Linda Featheringill:
C’mon now, Linda, you know better than that. There is no inconsistency in realizing that war is horrible but is occasionally necessary.
stuckinred
@burnspbesq: Oh boy, here we go.
Cacti
The US government takes Memorial Day seriously.
They always work to ensure that there’s a steady supply of dead soldiers for us to remember.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@stuckinred:
is it ok to leer at college age women if they sing along to the localized version of gary glitter’s rock and roll part 2?
The Raven
Ruckus
@khead:
Na you seem like you actually think. Not just follow.
I do know of one fellow who was drafted who warned the army that it was a bad choice to draft him. So of course he was constantly getting extra shit. One day they told him to paint a truck. So he did. Every single part of it. 100% olive drab. They were not amused. But he told them he was just following orders. He had been told not to think but to follow and that is what he did, word for word. Still not amused. I think his construct was the same as mine, Joke them if they can’t take a fuck.
PopeRatzy
Memorial days are a good thing, that we have them is the bad thing. Some wars are just, most wars are not necessary.
I think if you are in government or pundit class and you advocate for war, then you should lead the war. Because if you can’t lead the war you are ignorant of war and do not know of what you prattle.
stuckinred
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal: I just find it hilarious that at Georgia football they have this intense anti-alcohol campaign complete with the, now departed because of a dui, AD on the scoreboard begins games blasting a song with TEENAGE WASTED as it’s tagline!
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@stuckinred:
the liabilty demands it.
plus who doesn’t enjoy their beer a little more, if they think they are pissing off the man.
Thoughtcrime
Charlie from the “Americanization of Emily”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSC3hNY8Oa8
James Garner says that this is his favorite of his movies.
Linda Featheringill
@burnspbesq:
Sorry about the delay. I got called away. I’m composing an answer now.
techno
Trust me on this–being a pacifist is a LOT harder than it looks.
I grew up in a small town that contained a bunch of Mennonites. They have been pacifist by official doctrine since 1534. They HAVE discussed this philosophy in some detail, as you might imagine. And as nearly as I can remember, this is what they believe.
1) Men are by nature warlike. They will march off to war in a heartbeat unless they have been taught from childhood the reasons why war is a bad idea. Teaching the reasons and strategies for peace-keeping must be continuous.
2) Being against war means being against all the support systems as well. No selling scrap metal to support the war effort–no rolling bandages, baking cookies, NOTHING.
3) War creates victims. The duty of a good pacifist is to organize and finance relief efforts when hostilities cease.
4) Do what is necessary to promote a life the keeps you at peace with your neighbors. Be kind and generous but above all, honest. Nothing will create violence quicker than cheating someone. Rather than arming ourselves to the teeth, the goal should be to turn our neighbors into reliable consumers and suppliers. Life’s struggles are easier with a lot of friends.
Notice, none of these principles even bothers to mention what you should do if someone attacks your daughter. This isn’t what pacifism is about–this kind of question is merely a distraction. (The answer is you restrain the attacker if possible–even it that means beating the shit out of him!) Warfare isn’t just some thugs writ large–warfare is the collective brain damage that happens to a society that is constantly preparing to make war.
Bmaccnm
@Nellcote: I read the book “Gods and Generals” with dumstruckedness. All those men, marching down those roads, all that time. Every one of them knew what was coming, every one knew he had as much chance as the other of dying slowly in the muck, and they just kept on walking. What if they had said “Fuck, no. I’m not doing this”? For that matter, what if my drafted 18 year old husband had said “Fuck, no. I’m not going to Viet Nam”? The yanks and rebs didn’t walk away because someone else would have shot them on the spot. My husband didn’t walk away because his iron worker father told him this is what men do. Why is this what men do?
Linda Featheringill
Even avowed pacifists generally agree that allowing myself to be killed is also immoral. Some sort of self defense might be necessary.
The best defense, of course, is not to give offense [according to some Eastern religion that I’m not sure of].
And The Art of War talks about the best battle plan may be placing yourself somewhere else, away from the battle.
The martial arts [with the possible exception of krav maga] emphasize deflection of blows, disarming your opponent, and immobilizing him if necessary before actually going in for the kill.
There are diplomatic means of defense and psychological means of defense.
Being a pacifist does not mean that you can’t defend yourself. It just means that you should use many nonviolent means if you can.
I never met a pacifist who was a doormat.
Linda Featheringill
I don’t know if losing people to war is relevant to this discussion but I’ll join in anyway.
I lost a brother in Korea. Another brother served during the same era but in another place. I had a lover who went to Vietnam and came back an entirely different person. I have a sweet, trusting, lovable nephew who went to Vietnam and came back with cynicism, anger, and addictions. I have a daughter who was serving in the Navy on 9/11 and is now living with me as a disabled vet.
I hate war, with a bloody fucking passion. I am a pacifist.
stuckinred
@Bmaccnm: In “The Things They Carried” Tim O’Brien says “We were to embarrassed not to kill”. Now people can go on and on on a blog about philosophical this and philosophical that but it’s a lot different when it’s real. Like Tim I seriously considered going to Canada. Like Tim I didn’t. It was a complex decision and not completely for the reasons you might think. I went, I came home and I did my level best to stop the war. I have been attacked on this blog for making too much of what we did in the VVAW and that’s ok, I can live with myself.
Citizen Alan
@Snailbiscuits:
No, no, no! The money is being spent on foreign wars to prevent it from being used here at home. That’s what foreign wars are for!
aisce
@FlipYrWhig:
you seem to miss the point.
he’s talking ultimately about accountability and responsibility. take libya. we normalized relations with them post 9/11. gave them money. opened our financial institutions to them. oversaw their nuclear disarmament such that it was. dozens (hundreds?) of people were responsible across government and across administrations to maintain this new policy portfolio. and then there was war. qaddafi never turned over a new leaf. he was always a murderous thug and a terrorist. when the war is over, and it will be shortly we pray, why is there no accountability for our policymakers and great game players in libya?
we gave hundreds of millions of dollars and weapons to yemen. and that’s all we gave them. and now there’s civil war. any accountability there?
israel? how many failed negotiators keep their jobs? keep their credibility? their esteem in very serious circles? after occupation and blockade and multiple small wars, and the faces in power never change.
and on and on it goes.
Mr Stagger Lee
What pisses me off is that the same son/bitches makes ads that worships our soldiers or spouts God Bless America, will totally ignore the ones who out in the street, because God Forbid we raise taxes on the Kochs or tax churches, to give those three and more deployed vets who are suffering, proper treatmeant
Amir_Khalid
A particular problem for the US with regard to war is that it has, from World War II onward, built what it likes to tell itself is The Greatest War Machine Evah, whose cost is ruinous in the long run; whose existence tempts foolish Presidents into rash military adventures; yet whose might is so bound up with the nation’s self-image that politicians can make hay by declaring its budget allocation sacrosanct.
When it comes to war in general, I’m with the not-quite-pacifists here. It’s a dirty wind, blowing devils and dust. But I dare not say it is never needed. You never know when you’re going to come up against the next Axis, or the next Balkan War, or Libyan dictator, or …
But that big-ass American war machine? You know what people say, when your only (or main) tool is a hammer, how that skews your perspective.
A holiday like your Memorial Day isn’t really for celebrating war, it’s for honoring those who fought. And for remembering war for what it really is, as so many commenters here have noted, rather than as a chance for medals and victory. We have an Armed Forces Day in Malaysia, but it’s not a public holiday. And you only ever see military parades here on Independence Day.
Poopyman
@khead: I’m getting worried about you, Russell.
gypsy howell
I am a proud pacifist. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t defend myself, my family and my community IF we were truly endangered. But that’s never happened in my lifetime of 55 + years. I don’t know why people (men in particular, it seems) have such a big problem with the P word – I suspect men in particular feel wimpy if they don’t espouse some killin’.
I hate all the bullshit about honoring “our heroes” defending “our freedom”. They might be brave, but what they’re doing is far short of heroic, and they’re certainly not defending my freedom.
Mr Howell, who served in Vietnam, gets enraged when he hears people say “thank you for your service.” It’s all bullshit.
Ruckus
@Amir_Khalid:
When the national psyche is about warfare, be it military, terrorists, drugs, poverty or whatever it gets celebrated. It’s not good, healthy or inexpensive, but it is the way the US is now.
Mr Stagger Lee
@Amir_Khalid: Alexander Solzhenizyen remarked that nations who lose wars spectacularly, like the Japanese and the Germans,become prosperous peaceful nations. America sadly never was into the real violent meat of WWI, and we insured the real cost of the Civil War’s effect on the land was erased out and replaced with romanticism, so Americans don’t know the real effect of war(not to mention Hollwood’s worship of war). General Sherman said it best, you got to make war so horrific that it will generations upon generations before it is looked upon fondly. America is going to get a painful lesson unless.
stuckinred
@efgoldman: And half the fucking country doesn’t take the Yankee Holiday off. I haven’t had Vets day off for 25 years here in Georgia.
Mr Stagger Lee
@stuckinred: I heard that Vicksburg,MS didn’t celebrate Independence Day from the day lost on July 4th 1863, until somewhere around 1940’s.
Ruckus
Maybe a little definition might help. Pacifism.
stuckinred
@gypsy howell: Tell him this for me. “Don’t mean nuthin, drive on”.
Amir_Khalid
@efgoldman:
I stand corrected. In my country, we don’t separate the two.
ETA: I meant, we don’t have separate holidays for the two.
stuckinred
@Mr Stagger Lee: Miss Firecracker!
hilts
I Ain’t Marching Anymore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5pgrKSwFJE
Kirbster
My practical solution to cut down on foreign military adventurism by the US would be to require the Congress to pass a “war tax” before there can be a declaration or resolution to go to war. Because Americans hate taxes more than they (claim to) hate war.
stuckinred
@hilts: Maria
Country Joe
Maria, I’m growing so tired of fighting this war,
Maria, I feel like I just can’t go on anymore.
The sounds we make as they’re dying
Hearing their screams and their crying
The children, their eyes are weeping
We filled them with pain.
You know the reason I joined up to fight in this war.
You know the reason I refuse to fight anymore.
khead
@Poopyman
I’m pacing myself.
FlipYrWhig
@aisce: I already know this. Everyone already knows this. All Atrios adds is his characteristically limp snark about how the Serious People are out to hurt his feelings. Atrios can be a pacifist if he likes. Nothing is stopping him. There’s no peer pressure to affect him. By all means let’s have a discussion about war and warmongering and pacifism. There’s no reason to conduct that discussion under the sign of the vacuous and long-past-whatever-prime-he-used-to-have Atrios.
aisce
@FlipYrWhig:
what is it with this site and its fascination with the messengers over the message?
should we draw up a list of balloon-juice approved bloggers and writers and sticky it at the top of the site for future reference? will that help? because i got to say, i’m getting a little weary of the constant shrieking and howling that goes on whenever someone like sullivan or greenwald or now atrios or whoever else that is no longer in vogue and is now an enemy of the republic gets linked to.
what is the point really?
Linnaeus
@AnotherBruce:
I agree on both counts.
celticdragonchick
@aisce:
One of the more unfortunate cross infections we seem to have gotton from wingnut blogs.
I asked the same question you did about a year ago, since it seems that linking to virtually anybody in the greater blogosphere will produce howls of butthurt from somebody here.
moops
@burnspbesq:
that still makes you a pacifist, in my opinion.
Just not a fundamentalist pacifist.
most all of you are pacifists, and should be reclaiming the proper us of the term.
Svensker
@Doug Harlan J:
You’ll make a Quaker yet. And you know a lot of the liberal Friends are atheists, don’t you? Not all, by any means, but many. Strange but true.
Flugelhorn
While we are at it, psychologists and psychiatrists should commit seppuku when a patient does something crazy.