Yesterday many of you expressed confusion about why I closed comments on this thread. Some of the comments questioning my judgment were written in good faith. Other comments were simply the normal jackassery from the expected 5-10 people.
I closed the comments not because I didn’t want to have a conversation about whether race relations is a zero sum game, or whether or not the photo was offensive, and whether I was wrong for using it. I’d love to have that conversation (or at least watch you have that conversation, and feel free to use this as an open thread to jumpstart that discussion.)
I closed the comments because of this comment:
You people take the bait EVERY SINGLE TIME. Everytime the white wing dangles these scooby snacks in front of you, you go for it.
They are baiting you with divisive issues. The Rapper in the white house. Blah blah yada yada.
You all deserve the blame just as much as the white wing echo chamber because if you just ignored their nonsense and let them wallow in their own filth they wouldn’t get anywhere and they would stop doing it. But no, you fall for it EVERY SINGLE TIME.
I think “stunned and speechless” is the best way to describe my reaction to that comment, and “disheartened and resigned” is the best way to describe my reaction to those who chimed in here and on Twitter to say “You’re misinterpreting” or “I don’t think he meant it like that” or “I think he meant liberals, not black people.”
You’re wrong. He meant it to be offensive. He did mean it like that. There is no question he meant it like that. What I find interesting is that rather than question the person who made the comment, folks questioned me. As if finding a way to render the comment non-offensive was more important than addressing the reasons that I was offended.
What followed in that thread seemed to me to be a roundtable discussion about me being a drama queen and taking things personally. I’m too emotional, you see.
For you women out there, imagine if you took offense to a sexist comment, expressed that you were offended at the time, and, indeed, had expressed offense at such rhetoric for months, but a group of men dismissed you out of hand, called you a drama queen, and made statements like “You’re always complaining about sexism. Why would you even want to be here? Why don’t you just go away? You’re the problem. It’s not us!” and then proceeded to discuss you, your identity, and your feelings as if you weren’t there. For you gay folks out there, same thing. Imagine a group of heteronormative folks trying to decide for you whether you should be offended about a perjorative attack.
Obviously the analogy is a bit twisted because this is a virtual world we inhabit, so it’s not the same as being in a room full of people while being ignored and spoken for, but it’s pretty damn close. Attacking someone based on their identity and then expecting the marginalized person to just “get over it” while simultaneously refusing to acknowledge that the marginalized person is rightfully offended shows an incredible lack of compassion. Yet that is precisely what happened:
Why on earth would you keep associating with a site you consider racist? What does that get you? Either cut the drama and leave, or get Cole to seriously deal with the problem.
Though I did not see Exclamation Point Fred being the one to drive you off. Stunner really.
The point of me calling out these particular comments is not to shame the commenters, but rather to point out that such statements are offensive, that I believe the persons who made the statements knew they were offensive and intended them to be so.
By the time people began having the discussion that I intended to engender, I was pissed off to the point where I could not stand to sit here and watch people having an academic debate about me, my feelings, whether or not I was being a drama queen, or lame, or unself-aware. Certainly, because the rest of the folks on that thread had no stake in the “identity politics” they just moved on with the discussion while I sat there seething, wondering whether to bring it up again, or just shut it all down. And so I shut it down.
Yesterday during the Great Slagging of ABL, I remained silent. I didn’t have the energy to explain to people why I had closed the comments, I didn’t want to deal with the bullshit responses I likely would have gotten in return, and frankly, I was really disheartened by the attitudes of some people here.
Of course by the end of the day, my mischievous nature had returned, and, well, you know the rest.
On my blog, the conversation has continued in a positive and civilized manner, and I would like to repost a comment that I just read this morning because I think it is important to share (I note, with no small amount of irony, that yet again, this takes some whitesplaining):
I’d like to chime in here. Everybody’s heard the saying that money is the root of all evil. And while there is some truth to that, I think it misses the mark a little. It’s a lack of empathy that is the root of all evil. And I saw a buttload of lack of empathy over at Balloon Juice when you ran that picture of the fat redneck–but none of it was on your part. The people who felt so aggrieved and put upon made me feel sick. One insulting picture just doesn’t stack up against the 400 years of ugly racism that black Americans have had to deal with. One dumb picture of one dumb white redneck just doesn’t mean shit when you hold it up against the Aemrican legacy of racism, and anybody who thinks the two things are even within sight of each other is a staggeringly unself-aware asshole, and any such person desperately needs an empathy trasfusion.
I’ll wander off track for a bit here by saying that I’m a white guy. I had a splotchy record in high school at best, though my test scores were good. My father was on the faculty at the University of Pennsylvania, and had gone to graduate school there. And guess where I went to college? The University of Pennsylvania! How about that! And I was suspended twice for lousy grades, took 6 years to graduate, and graduated with a Bushian 2.52 G.P.A. Now, I’m not a politician, but I feel safe in saying that if I were ever to go into politics, I think it unlikely that anybody would ask whether I had been “worthy” of going to school there, whether I really “belonged” there, or had “earned the privilege” of going there. By any fair standard, Barack Obama “belonged” at Columbia, and later, at Harvard, far more thanb I ever “belonged” at the University of Pennsylvania. All I can ask is whether there’s some small difference between Obama and me that I’m missing. I feel like there is, though, sadly, few white people are willing to acknowledge it.
In this country today, black Americans have a moral authority when speaking about race that white Americans just don’t have. Maybe it seems unfair to some whites, but that’s how it is. Black Americans deal with racism every day in a way that I never will. That’s what gives them this moral authority. I don’t think it has anything directly to do with slavery’ that is to say, Barack Obama has no less authority to speak about racism here than somebody whose great grandparents were slaves because it isn’t being the decendent of slaves that bestows this moral authority, but rather being the victim of racism. And Barack Obama, no matter how wildy successful he has been in life, has without any doubt had far more hurdles to overcome in life than I have as a white guy, even a white guy who has not done anything spectacular with his life.
This is just true. I don’t have anybody questioning whether I’ve managed to achieve my spectacularly modest achievements without “handouts” or some kind of “unfair” help because of my color. I don’t get turned down for bank loans while somebody who earns less than I do, but belongs to a more favored race gets the loan. These aren’t things I have to deal with, or have ever had to deal with. But black Americans deal with this shit every day. That’s what gives them their moral authority in racial matters. Now, true, I guess some black people can and do give away that authority; Herman Cain and the Als West and Keyes spring to mind.
What I’m trying to get across is that it doesn’t matter whether the picture above offends me. It really doesn’t. As it happens, it doesn’t offend me, but if it did, I wouldn’t have any moral authority to whine and moan about it. Is this a double standard? I guess a lot of people would say it is, but I don’t think so. A downright insulting picture of or joke about white people just isn’t grounds for genuine offense, because it’s so trivial. A similarly insulting joke or picture denigrating a black person IS grounds for offense, as it comes along following a whole vast, ugly history of vicious, fearsomely violent, often institutionalized, racism. THAT’S why “jokes” that show watermelons growing on the White House grounds, or show Obama dressed like a witch doctor are racist, offensive and indefensible. If the day ever comes when some other race systematically humiliates and dehumanizes people like me every day of my life, after people like me have only lately overcome 350 years of institutionalized exploitation, then, and ONLY then, will I have any moral authority to raise a stink about a picture like the one above.
To wrap this up, I would like to ask that you not let a few whiny, self-entitled assholes get to you. I hope you’ll begin opening up yor pieces at Balloon Juice to comments again. I know, it’s easy for me to ask this; you’re the one who has to deal with all the shit that gets thrown at you. All the same, I hope you’ll think it over. We need to talk about race, as much as many of us would rather talk about almost anything else.
I’m posting the comment because although many of you “get it” (and thank you to those who sent me kind emails yesterday), I think that some of you truly don’t understand what drives me, but really want to understand. The rest of you don’t care and take pleasure in repeated and childish attempts to insult and demean me. You know who you are, I know who you are, so let’s try to proceed with that in mind.
I hope this will be a fruitful discussion for you to have with one another. My default position will be to not participate in the discussion unless I feel like it’s a positive one. I’m not going to spend my entire day fending off attacks. I just wanted to make clear where I was coming from to those of you with good intentions.
In any event, I’m busy today — I’ve got a purple lace glove to go buy.
UPDATE: That’s it. Some folks are trying to have a real discussion. One I’d be interested in joining if not for certain relentless jackasses. Accordingly, on my “racialistic” posts I’m going to start taking a harder line when it comes to derailing. Deal with it. If you don’t like it, email John. He loves when you do that. Or wail to the four corners of the earth in the Open Threads. I’m sick of this bullshit. I just ran the idea by him and his response was “Fuck them. I’m drinking.” -ABL
chopper
i predict 400 posts.
Miss Kitkas's Comrade Wayne
Give ’em hell ABL!
jinxtigr
This makes a lot of sense, really- sorry for calling you too meta, but since I hadn’t seen any of the ABL-slagging or the comment that set you off, it just seemed very meta :)
In the context of race in America, it’s less out of context, and the fact is, the backlash to Obama makes racism in America a very high priority problem. We can’t just muddle along anymore sweeping stuff under the carpet.
On the bright side, the reporting on abusive police that John Cole has been doing is encouraging, in that it brings home to white people exactly what black people have always had to deal with. It’s pathetic that white people only get upset when it’s an entitled white guy getting beat on by police for talking back, but the first thing I always think is ‘huh, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander then- so glad you’ve been paying attention’
I was gonna do a song to that effect but didn’t have the rest of the song to hang around it :)
Jazz Superluminar
I think 600 is a good bet. Good post ABL, but don’t let the haters get to you. I don’t think many here are actually racist, but some could think before posting, maybe…
LM
I enjoy the hell out of your posts here, and when there aren’t enough of them, I go check your blog. I come here for smart, crotchety, funny and (very best of all) novel balloon-juiceyness from you and JC. I’m glad neither of you ever seems tempted to go all poignant and conciliatory.
Lysana
Yeah, seeing a front-pager here say “I don’t think it was racist” really pissed me off. You don’t get to make that fucking call, my fellow white people. Just like you don’t get to tell me what is and isn’t biphobia. Or fatphobia, for that matter.
We are not the authorities on all things, my fellow white people. We cannot be. And the sooner we get over ourselves, the better. The fact some of you will take this better coming from me than from ABL is part of the problem, too.
stuckinred
I just wanted you to know that the thread with the silly campaign video’s was closed too!
blackfrancis
I wish the internet didn’t make it so easy to forget that there are real people at the ends of all of the comments posted everywhere. It’s so easy to forget that, and use that shield as a way to spread hate. The ugly downside to all of the awesomeness to be found.
ABL is well within that sphere of awesomeness.
nancydarling
ABL, lots of love and empathy from NW Arkansas. I love your blog, too. I wish I still lived In SoCal so we could hang together once in a while. I honestly thought we had begun to really put race issues behind us when President Obama was elected. I guess it had always been there, lurking in the shadows. It has certainly gotten more blatant in the last 2 1/2 years. I have a policy to never shrug it off when I hear it, whether the victim is black, Hispanic, or gay. One just has to speak up and let it be known that it is not okay. Keep writing those ABL posts. I appreciate your pov as it has clarified my thinking on issues many times.
Ripley
Whither Balloon Juice?
stuckinred
@Lysana: And I don’t want Bob Fucking Loblaw telling me about Vietnam! So there.
Shadow's Mom
Thank you for helping to illuminate a condition that we privileged white folks cannot begin to understand. As a woman, I can feel empathy and sympathy. I can make my best effort to be not color-blind, but color-sensitive, in my interactions with those who do not share my privileged circumstances. I cannot, though, begin to understand that depths of hurt experienced by marginalized communities every. single. day.
I can only hope that my interactions with the world help to reduce rather than promote institutional marginalization. Thank you for your witty and thoughtful posts here and at ABL.
60th Street
This is what I truly love about the Age of Obama. Race issues front and fucking center, everyday. We need to deal with this. All of it. Now!
And, liberals who have long thought of themselves as beacons of peace, love, tenderness and tolerance, need to cope with how blind they are to their own, however subtle, racist thoughts. Everyone has them, and the more self-aware you are about them, the more you recognize them when they pop their vile little heads up. Deal.
Cermet
Wow, that long comment really hits the nail on the head! I wish more people learned those truths. Thanks for posting that here.
Ghanima Atreides
I like you being here, i’m grateful that you’re here and that you put up with most of the clueless juicer shit until you hit your limit. You are someone I always read, unlike some of the posters here.
I lurve your profanity and your passion and most of all your taste in music.
Its your pulpit, you can do what you liek, and juicers…. reading ABL is a privilege not a right. Try to use more than the lizard section of your brain.
ABL, you are a warrior.
heres some of my music.
MattMinus
@Lysana:
That’s some pretty crazy identity politics. Only the group that claims to be offended by a statement gets to decide if that statement is offensive? Spin that out to it’s logical conclusion. Remember, Bill Donohue exists.
Not commenting on the trolling and counter-trolling that started this, just this way of evaluating it.
60th Street
HELLO!
Shirley Sherrod returns to the USDA
TRM
You’re serious? That’s the comment that so offended you that you couldn’t bear to face the cruel, cruel world anymore?
Jesus.
Are you seven? Thank god he didn’t pull out the big guns and call you “poopyhead.” The wailing might not have ended for weeks.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
I want to underline how powerful this kind of work is, for those of us who are African-American and political junkies.
It’s not a case of wanting to “seem special”. I think ABL, and I know for myself — a debate on, say, the usefulness of Affirmative Action policies isn’t horrible.
But when people who’ve never dealt with that kind of oppression — or any kind of systemic oppression, for that matter — swoop in and not only opine, but expect me to give their opinion equal weight, that I have to jump ship.
To me, in some ways, and outside of any accusations of lingering racism, this is just like the people who insist that that Politico X did Action Y, then everything’ll be OK. As someone who grew up with politically-active parents, and worked as a page in the Senate, I find those kinds of shallow, facile opinions as stupid as many of our pundits we rightly mock.
How much more so, when people insist they “know” about oppression of the kinds African-Americans, or Asian-Americans, or Gays, or Transsexuals, or Mobility-impaired folks, go through? It leads to not only insulting opinions, ones it’s nigh-impossible to not take personally, but to the kind of insane comments like the one on Cole’s post to this.
When that poster decided that s/he’s drop a 3+ year old post from the campaign around Obama’s opinion on Affirmative Actions into the thread, I knew s/he wasn’t a serious actor. No, instead they were someone willing, nay eager to use my personal pain to get their jollies.
And that’s the key, here. This isn’t abstract political bickering. It’s not even pocketbook politics. These are issues that go to a key personal identity that’s oftentimes the sources of a lifetime of abuse and struggle. Fuckin’ with them for your personal ego-puffing makes you a small, stupid idiot.
I hope this helps add clarity to the situation at hand. And thanks to Cole, ABL, and everyone else in making this one the best spaces to say this kind of crap. :)
Jane2
ABL, the kind of knee-jerk comments you cite are precisely that. Whether from the right or left, I could pre-write some people’s posts for them on any given subject because they have that kind of “not my responsibility to learn anything new, because I already *know*, and you’re not even entitled to your (wrong) opinion” mentality.
I just watched the American Experience program on the civil rights movement, and when Lyndon Johnson’s “we shall overcome” still stands out as a particularly brave political statement from a white President almost four decades on, there is indeed way more to race than “let the wingnuts shut up and it’ll all go away.”
Keep giving them hell! You enrich the joint.
stuckinred
ABL is right, now go find something better to do on a Saturday.
Joey Maloney
@Top:
The author told you that? Or you’re telepathic? If there’s a third possibility, I’m not seeing it.
I mean, you could well be right. ISTR the author specifically disavowed that reading when challenged, but he could’ve been lying. I’m just trying to figure out from what your certainty derives.
stuckinred
@Jane2: Fuck LBJ.
Tde
Thems an awful lot of words about why it’s okay to ridicule poor white trash folks.
Tde
Thems an awful lot of words about why it’s okay to ridicule poor white trash folks.
JordanRules
What is interesting and odd to me is that I didn’t get offended by the comment. And as a black person I’m wondering why. I’m usually on the same offense scale, people handle said offenses differntly which is cool. It just felt wierd not having the same knowingness of an offense. I stepped out as soon as I saw the “You people? Really?” response and never went back. Maybe it should’ve clicked then, but I left because I knew it was going to get ugly and without the sense of knowingness I was just not interested I guess. And maybe what followed would’ve provided me with that sense of aha (but as a black person that aha is generally intrinsic and part of what others don’t get). I don’t think I need to recalibrate my sense of white priviledge and how it permeates, but like others I’m happy that race is now front and center. And I’m really thinking about my initial reaction (or non reaction) and decision to just dip from the thread.
Exurban Mom
You go, ABL. I will read with pleasure any post you deign to supply to we unworthy Juicers.
Enjoy the Purple One in concert tonight. He’s a wonder of our world, I only wish he played out more often in my neck of the woods.
Omnes Omnibus
ABL, I am glad you decided to post this. I hope it puts the” ABL closed comments” controversy more or less to rest. The deeper issues still exist, of course. Hopefully, people around here can talk about them like adults and recognize that different life experiences can cause people to interpret comments differently. Also too, those of us who are members of “in” groups (male, white, straight, Christian, etc.) need to accept that we don’t get to get offended at the drop of a hat.
Have fun at the Prince concert. Have you seen the crazy little man live before? He does one hell of a good show. I’ve seen him four times (including once in the early 80s at 1st Avenue, post-1999, pre-Purple Rain, the Time opened).
Corey
You don’t get to just say, without evidence, that the “you people” comment referred to African-Americans, and not progressive bloggers. In fact I think the vast majority of evidence points to the commenter referring to progressive bloggers; isn’t it a common trope that the left-wing internet feels the need to respond, unproductively, to every culture-war skirmish drummed up by the other side? How many times has that exact sentiment been expressed, whether it’s a rapper in the White House or the “War on Christmas” or whatever?
But if there’s any ambiguity at all, isn’t the best policy to charitably assume that the guy was not making a racist comment? That we’re all here on a progressive, left-wing blog, and that we’re a population substantially less likely to make racist comments on the internet? Even if the comment is unambiguously racist, it still doesn’t justify shutting down the comments section; you could just delete the offending comment, or trust that the community would take care of business.
I have very little but contempt for the Soc 101 notion, expressed by your commenter, that it’s okay for black people to be racist. I agree that white racism is clearly much, much more problematic for all the reasons he describes, but that doesn’t mean your poor choice of picture on that post is somehow defensible.
Stillwater
@Ripley: Whither Balloon Juice?
Too many balloons? Too much juice? This is a big place, no?
Personally, I think it’s ridiculous (RIDICULOUS!!) to close comments because discussion doesn’t proceed according to the lines an FPer wants it to take. I said it last time ABL left in a huff: if you disagree with someone, you can either take your toys and go home and preach to a small choir. Or you can make an argument and call those people out.
But also, if a writer chooses to submit deliberately inflammatory posts then they can’t justifiably act shocked and surprised when flames break out. That’s just childish.
Bah! Humbug!
Brachiator
It’s John Cole’s world here and we all play by his rules, but I am torn here. Some posts by ABL clearly bring out the worst in some people, particularly those who have a deep psychic need to dismiss, disparage or demean women and people of color, all the more jarring when it comes from people who see themselves as liberal or progressive.
On the other hand, closing off comments in a discussion blog is close to reprehensible. The supposed standard, “offensiveness,” is odd, arbitrary and ephemeral. The level of stupidity and vitriol that I have seen on Balloon Juice is generally far less than I have encountered on other general interest or political blogs.
Lastly, it seems to me that closing comments invites people to close their minds. I have read comments where folks have reconsidered their opinions and changed their minds about an issue related to race that began with an ABL post. Had the discussion been halted, many would simply be content to stew in the juices of their own faulty perceptions.
Which brings me to one more thing. Discussions on race are volatile, dangerous, and necessary because people on all sides are often stuck in an ignorant conventional wisdom on racial issues. Sometimes we have to risk offending and being offended because that is the only way to get to higher ground.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@MattMinus:
Since I’m in moderation, I’ll poke at this a bit from my POV.
That’s the simple answer, yes. It’s the one you give because trying to spend 30 min. just explaining — if you’re lucky — what racism is about, explaining something that’s a source of a lot of personal agony and pain, over and again and again and again…ugh.
A more nuanced answer is this — the group that’s the subject of the statement/action/event that’s potentially offensive usually has been shut out of that discussion for decades or centuries prior. The punishment for the people(s) involved in the action is only rarely anything more than public shaming. And, to the core — the people involved are oftentimes the ones who are the experts, if you will, on the topic.
If you want the people most knowledgeable on if something is offensive to decide, then you ask the traditional victims, and put their opinions way ahead. Otherwise, yeah, it’s any Joe with an opinion.
And the reason you don’t listen to someone like Donahue isn’t because Catholics don’t have some lingering, and real, oppression. It’s because he’s a narrow-minded idiot looking far more than publicity than solving issues key to the Catholic laity in America.
Nutella
@Corey:
“You people” is ambiguous but when it is contrasted with “the white wing” I think the ambiguity disappears.
The commenter claimed he was not making a black vs white distinction in his comment. Did he ever say why, then, he used the term “white wing” rather than ‘right wing”?
hildebrand
I think empathy deficit disorder is one of the major problems today – so many simply cannot conjure up the ability or desire to care for others, or to even see the problems of others as problems that are in need of their attention. Look at the Pauls, Scott Walker, et al – they simply have lost any human compassion.
What makes them different from wankers on the internet is that they have decided to make their heartlessness their agenda and political point of view.
The web magnifies the vituperative nonsense because of the delightful screen of anonymity. Far too many people indulge in their inner heartless bastard because they can, because no one actually can hold them accountable for their hackery and insensitivity.
Thus, we need to have it pointed out when our compassion and empathy is lacking – it is the first necessary step of actually making this country a better place. So, ABL, keep doing what you are doing, because we need you to point out when people have lost their moral bearings. This is what progressives and liberals are supposed to do – point out how to make our society better. (Yes, I am being hopelessly idealistic.)
ALL CAPS
Clearly the verbal section dragged down this poor fellow’s SAT scores. But, like many developmentally-different citizens, he has a good heart.
JordanRules
@Brachiator: I’d like to co-sign pretty much all of that
Edgar Allahu Akbar Poe
I think I’ve commented here about twice in all the time I’ve been reading this blog, but at the moment I can’t resist.
I want to know why it hasn’t occurred to you that yes, obviously, a picture of a “dumb white redneck” is not equal in perniciousness to four hundred years of slavery but might still be offensive. There is nothing logically inconsistent about this. In fact, you posted it to be insulting, didn’t you?? Surely, you didn’t post it to provoke a “positive,” intelligent conversation. And, since part of the topic is empathy, maybe it would be instructive to take just one moment to consider why the picture in question might have been personally insulting to some. Isn’t that what you’re asking people to do for you.
You must understand how aggressively personal your writing “style” is. Your main rhetorical tools are sarcasm and invective; you call people “fucking nutjobs” and tell people that they are disgusting. You have to know that the tone you employ will be returned in kind, especially on the internet.
Allan
@Corey:
Um, she just did. You don’t get to dictate to others what they “get to just say”. The sooner you grasp this simple concept, the less your butt will hurt while reading the internets.
Corey
@Nutella: I think it’s fair to say that the vast majority of conservatives are white, though, right? I don’t think I would have said “white wing” – a little too reductionist for me – but reading it through I think it clearly was a reference to the left’s need to get enmeshed in the culture war, rather than just ignoring it and letting it wither on the vine.
Bobby Thomson
@MattMinus:
Missing the point entirely. The point being made was that if you’re not a member of a group that historically has been disenfranchised and/or oppressed by the majority, nobody gives a flying fuck if your precious fee fees get hurt by a little satire. But if you are a member of that majority punching down, you are behaving like an asshole and deserve all the shit that comes your way. And if you didn’t mean to behave like an asshole, you don’t have the right to get all pissy about it when someone tells you the practical import of what you’ve done.
@Lysana:
That said, I wouldn’t jump so hard on Sarah for offering the douche a path off the ledge. She’s no shrinking violet, though, and can speak for herself.
eemom
@Brachiator:
YIKES.
Never thought of it that way before but I guess you’re right.
We are but dandelions in the vast meadows of Planet Cole. And we all know what he thinks of dandelions…
Ramza
I gotta say I’m loving that people still are whining about comments being closed. I mean really, that’s what is beyond the pale here?
“Oh no I don’t find racism offensive and even if it is suck it up and let us white folks blather on like idiots about it” is what it all sounds like to me and its such a sense of entitlement its amazing.
White people telling black people that they have to sometimes risk being offended in order to change minds is just laughable. Look I’m as privileged as they come and news flash that’s why nothing really offends me and I can discuss anything “calmly and rationally”. I got no skin in the game.
Fucking armchair quarterbacks.
Bobby Thomson
@Joey Maloney:
No, he was obstinately coy about it.
Stillwater
@Allan: You don’t get to dictate to others what they “get to just say”. The sooner you grasp this simple concept…
What, the evidence free assertion? Here’s one for you then: you’re a useless shit stain.
Stillwater
@Ramza: I can discuss anything “calmly and rationally”
Not when the comments are closed.
300baud
ABL:
I would rather you not just make unbacked assertions of absolute truth. As somebody who has only paid passing attention to all this, I thought “you people” referred to the general audience here. I’d be glad to find out I was wrong, but just asserting I’m wrong doesn’t convince me of anything.
Tim, Interrupted
ABL has serious issues of emotional instability. I don’t think John Cole (whomever that is) is doing her any favors by allowing her to post here, given all the acting out it engenders on her part.
That a blogger who uses the moniker “ABL,” and who dishes out the venom and attitude with such vigor, would on the other hand pose as such a delicate flower, is beyond ridiculous.
I say this, proudly, as maybe the only person to have been banned by ABL. ;D
CONGRATS. YOU JUST GOT BANNED AGAIN. ;D -ABL
Allan
@Stillwater: Thanks for sharing that insight. I’m sure other BJ readers appreciate, as I do, the way you opened that window into your soul so that we can adjust our opinions of you accordingly.
300baud
For those who like to keep score at home, the “Derailing for Dummies” site is a great way to structure your games of “bad argument bingo”:
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
sherifffruitfly
@Lysana:
“Yeah, seeing a front-pager here say “I don’t think it was racist”…”
It’s how we white folks are – we support each other on being racist NO MATTER WHAT.
Now if ABL would stop being all oversensitive-y and get me tix to that damn Prince concert, we could win the future! lols
JordanRules
@Ramza: I read the comment to mean we ALL will deal in and with offense as part of the discussion. Round and round we go I guess…and that’s okay too.
Corner Stone
Who would have ever thought that something posted by an obvious spoof like Fred would have led to a multi-day foofaraw?
Omnes Omnibus
@Stillwater:
@Brachiator:
I do agree that closing comments was a bad idea, contrary to the ethos of the place, etc. This is one of the reasons that I am glad ABL put up this post. It gives people a a chance to say directly to ABL why closing comments was a bad idea without, hopefully, sounding like whiners regarding racial issues.
Corner Stone
@300baud: That DFD stuff is just weaksauce, IMO.
People with no actual argument trot it out as a bulwark.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@Lysana:
Nailed it.
I recall an poll being conducted after some incident – along the lines of the Rodney King incident, although sadly I believe it was something different (sad in that it goes on to such a degree that the stories can run together for some of us). In the poll, whites were split on whether the action was racially motivated, while among ethnic minorities, there was no equivocation whatsoever. Take away: Unless you are walking in the shoes of a segment of society that is – never mind marginalized, but fairly downtrodden, you’re just blowing smoke up your own ass to think minorities are too quick to blame bigotry for whites behaving badly toward others.
ABL – *not* to play devil’s advocate, but to offer up a bit of differing perspective – I can’t help but think that the action of you shutting down comments may have had the unintended consequence of sidetracking some in this community. These comments are generally allowed as a free for all, a lone nut here and there who might get a time-out or completely cut off notwithstanding. Probably because Cole would rather we battle it out here as opposed to having us go crying to him via email. But I do wonder if shutting off the comments put some here into such unfamiliar territory that they allowed their indignation to cloud their judgement regarding the larger point. I’m not saying you were wrong to do it, and I know Cole has supported you in the past when you took that rare but (for here) drastic step. So I’m glad you came back here to continue the conversation after everyone’s been able to have some distance from the heat of the instant post.
I loved how the ’70s show “Maude” poked fun at liberals and the matter of overplayed white guilt. Nothing says liberals can’t be the target for some genuinely funny poking, including their awkwardness when trying to see things in a different light and figuring out where to draw the lines on when this is helpful, and when it’s creating more noise than understanding. But somewhere along the way, our national narrative managed to internalize the message about white guilt and overblown political correctness, misplacing it from something born out of the difficulty of bridging the gap between being born of privilege and being a target of oppression, to instead this ham-handed notion that whites in our society will innately over react in a cartoonish manner every time when confronted with the divide between white and not-white unless “cooler heads” (code for good ol’ boys) assure them it’s OK to not try to see important situations from a non-white vantage point. In other words, the racists re-took control of the narrative to a degree, managing to make empathy a matter of silliness and, at this time in our history, literally a word of scorn.
Those of us who want to reach for a empathetic view when confronted with our cultural differences need to retake the narrative. Perhaps we are. But like childbirth, it will be painful along the way.
Bobby Thomson
@Corey:
Only if one assumes that being challenged for making a racist statement (which doesn’t necessarily mean that the speaker actually has racist intent) is far worse than having been the target of the statement. This places all the responsibility for communication on the listener and none on the speaker. Why isn’t the best policy to assume charitably that the listener (who didn’t choose the words in the first place) is right?
Stillwater
@Allan: Don’t read too much into it Allan (not that you could). I was just taking advantage of a new-found rhetorical tool: getting to just say stuff.
You’re not suggesting I don’t have that right, are you?
Nutella
@Corey:
The majority of progressive bloggers are white, too, not surprisingly since whites are still a majority in the general population. So describing two majority-white groups (progressive bloggers and right-wingers) by using a racial identification for one side and not the other makes no sense.
Of course it is also possible that the commenter is incoherent and/or not too bright and so said something he didn’t mean.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus:
Cole has closed the comments on at least two posts in the Modern Era.
One post for the anniversary of (I believe, could be wrong) the passing of a military buddy. And one post when Jack Kemp passed and went straight to Hell where he fucking belongs the god damned AIDS denying scumbag Republican fucking fiend.
ETA, which is to say this place has no ethos. It’s a bunch of nihilists.
eastriver
Please get the fuck over yourself. Seriously. ABL, you are a bomb thrower. Good for you. But sometimes folks are going to throw shit back at you. And for you to then shut down the conversation and hide behind your hurt feewings is pathetic. Man the fuck up. Keep swinging.
The comment you posted was attacking you for something you did. Not who you are.
CT Voter
Thanks, ABL, for the explanation.
Frankly, I don’t care if you shut the comments down or not, because it’s not my blog. And if I don’t like it, I can just stop visiting. I’ve never understood why people write to Cole and complain about the blog. Vote with your feet if you don’t like what’s there, or how it’s being handled.
Elie
Wow!
Missed the fireworks yesterday but generally hold that I would prefer that comment threads not be closed no matter how inflammatory the rhetoric. I am willing to listen to reasons that might change my mind, but shutting off the thread does not really “fix” the underlying problem.
Corey
@Bobby Thomson:
This is a fair point – I don’t agree with it in this instance, though, because the accusation of racism was pretty clearly a pretext to shut down discussion, not to actually have a discussion about which kinds of comments are racist and which aren’t.
The other half of it is that, like it or not, accusing someone of racism is a big deal. (I wish it were less of a big deal, and we could talk about it in a more honest and open way, but it has a chilling effect on discussions in reality). We also live in Lee Atwater’s world – racist sentiment can be expressed in the most neutral and abstract of terms – and without context like body language, tone of voice, etc. it’s difficult to discern intent.
Corner Stone
My default position is to not participate in the discussion unless everyone capitalizes the first letter of every sentence. Although I will make allowances for some of the Nicks.
nancydarling
@Corey: What makes you think the culture war will wither on the vine? It is being ratcheted up to a fever pitch all over the country. There are a minority of people who make the most noise who would happily go back to Jim Crow laws, coat hanger abortions, elders driven into poverty by medical bills, the list goes on ad infinitum. Here in the southern states they seem to be winning a good bit of the time. It isn’t just a southern thing though—read about the Los Alamitos, CA school board and climate change. The anti-science, anti-everything god botherers are out there and they will rule our world if we let them.
@Tim, Interrupted: You’re an ass.
Cermet
@Ramza: Good hit! Going, going – out of the ball park and gone! That is a three run score! What a game!
(translate: good points)
WaterGirl
I don’t believe it’s possible to have a good faith conversation on any difficult subject when one of the parties can say this, and mean it: “We can agree to disagree. But I’m right.”
Corey
@nancydarling: I don’t necessarily think that, but it’s at least a common refrain around parts like these, no?
Tim, Interrupted
DELETED FOR ASSHOLICISM.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Joey Maloney:
Read it again. Notice not only what it says, but what it doesn’t say. It doesn’t say, ‘you liberals’ ‘you lefties’ or ‘you p.c. progressives’, although it could have been written that way, and quite easily.
It’s funny the things that you pick up from white people when you’re a white guy who just happens to have close, lifelong relationships- friends, neighbors and relatives- that other white people don’t know about. You’re privy to some ugly racist bullshit, some of it blatant, but most of it masked by genteel dog whistles. Maybe it was the suspicious eyeballs at the drugstore that are present when
you and your (black) best friend are looking to blow your allowances, eyeballs that aren’t present when it’s you and your white friends; maybe it’s the time when mom is driving you home from the mall through the moneyed suburb, a route you’ve taken hundreds of times before, and your friend ducks down in the car so mom isn’t pulled over for DWB; maybe it’s the co-worker who refers to your middle-class-but-not-lily-white neighborhood as THAT neighborhood- whichever the event, at some point you realize that it’s racism and it need not be preceded by muttering the word “nigger” three times to be racism.
Tim, Interrupted
@nancydarling:
Name calling! Excellent rhetorical skills.
DELETED FOR ASSHOLICISM
MonkeyBoy
As a white guy, I’ve noticed a funny thing about casual interactions I’ve had with large number of Black people in my community – ones I don’t personally know.
If you treat them as just people, not Black people, and you respect that they have something to contribute to the interaction that you don’t have then they are often much nicer than random White people. And by their “contribution” I don’t mean a “Black perspective” but something that could be as trivial as whether they think a restaurant makes good french fries.
Since I don’t believe that either Blacks or Whites are inherently nicer, my only explanation for this is many Blacks perceive many of their interactions with Whites as containing racist/domination overtones and when a “respectful” interaction occurs it makes them happy.
[ Conversely these “Happy Blacks” may be operating under a similar high-minded “respectful” strategy to make Whites friendly but I see no way to distinguish this from the long existing class structure that forces those lower to exhibit surface respect for their “betters”]
Corey
@Nutella: Fair point, I guess I read “white wing” more as “ethnocentric white wing”, if that makes sense. You can be white but not center your vote around your whiteness, so to speak. (this is similar to Yglesias’ characterization of the Republican platform as the “identity politics of middle-aged white suburban conformists”)
Chris Martinez
Nothing compares to the egregious Internet Offense of using the term “awesomesauce.”
General Stuck
In the context of a thread by a black woman about white racism, there is no doubt in my mind what the commenter meant by “you people”, and for me the tell for that was telling ABL that you people ought to just ignore the right wing and let them do what they do. Or, shut up with all this racism stuff.
I seriously doubt if the guy was talking about “progressives” or firebaggers, or whatever, he would recommend the “sit back at take it” approach.
And for the record, I am all for closing comments by FP’s and blog owners to make points that needed making and wasn’t getting through to the commentariot . Sometimes, silence speaks clearer than words forcing folks to pay attention to the broken gears in their own headspace.
It never works on some people, but some people it does. And more importantly, isolates a problem that needs isolating. And unless you are a permanent moron, it should be obvious that discourse about race on this blog, and a lot of other places needs some fixing. The inescapable requirement that came from electing our first black president.
Allan
@Stillwater: Nope. Just that others will draw conclusions about you based on what you choose to share.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corey: I don’t know. If I make a statement on this blog that can be interpreted in more than one way and one of those interpretations is that the comment was racist, I would expect that someone would call me out on it and give me the opportunity to explain or clarify my meaning. In such a situation, I would acknowledge the ambiguity and clarify my intent. Now if someone had a history of making such ambiguous comments and/or trolling, I would not expect people to be as understanding.
Sad But True
@eastriver:
Co-signed. Looking forward to your next post, and a chance to have a conversation with you and the rest here without getting halted or sidetracked.
60th Street
Anyone who blurts out supercharged phrases like, “you people” in any discussion, virtual or otherwise, on race relations in this country is either being completely selfish, disrespectful and insensitive to those issues, a fucking racist, or all of the above.
Liberals aren’t exempt from being racist, far from it. And this isn’t about innocent until proven guilty. There is no due process.
“You people” = GUILTY
“Uppity” = GUILTY
“Get over it” = GUILTY
Rend all you want. White people can’t take these words back and make them benign and functional again. If you fuck up and use them. Own it and apologize.
WaterGirl
@Stillwater: @Allan: In my experience, nothing good has ever come from a back and forth like this between Allan and anyone else on BJ. All it does is shit on the thread, so i hope one or both of you will decide to just let it go.
Sixers
ABL is thin skinned and takes her ball and goes home a lot. Nothings changed since she started here. I guess no other front pager here has people making insensitive comments on their posts so they don’t need close comments? She’s straight weak sauce.
Passerby
Correct me if I’m wrong – If a 98 lb woman attacks a 250 lb boxer, it is still battery? (I won’t say assault as that requires intent.)
Yeah, we of the Caucasian complexion have all the advantages and can take a hit. When I first read the offending post, I rolled my eyes at the stereotypes and moved on to the actual text because that was the interesting part.
One of my other frequent forums that I follow has a very higher moderation – you can’t group attack anyone except for maybe the Nazis. And yes that exception is specifically noted. Attacks on transexuals? Banned. Attack on Republicans? Banned.
As far as the closing comments goes? It isn’t unprecedented – but balloon-juice has hazed other front pagers far worse and far more minor things than that.
However, I know that my little reply isn’t going to change anything, but I figured I’d vent uselessly and go back to reading quietly.
Chris Martinez
“Weak sauce” is pretty fucking unforgivable too.
Stillwater
@Omnes Omnibus: IMO, it’s more than just closing comments. It’s the deeper rejection of advancing an argument through debate rather than assertions and ridicule. And the petulance that accompanies this. Look, an inflammatory post is useful precisely because it calls out the asswads it’s intended to call out. But rather than taking advantage of this well known internet tradition and using it to rhetorical advantage to establish the point she claims to be trying to make, ABL throws hissy fits, shuts down comments sections, bans people, recoils in faux-rage over the fact that BJ includes people that often disagree with her…
Brachiator
@Omnes Omnibus: Let me single you out for some praise here.
I watched you rethink some of your views on how best to argue the immorality of torture. But I could easily imagine someone saying “torture is wrong, period. There is no reason to discuss anything about it. Comments closed.”
Discussions about some topics can become intense. But as long as people are willing to discuss things, even if there is some stupidity or even insult, I think more is gained than lost by keeping the discussion going than in shutting it down.
Johnny Coelacanth
Well. That does it. I am outraged! I … hmmm, actually, nope. Good stuff, ABL.
John Cole
Oh, fuck me. I’m going to a party for someone’s graduation.
If you burn the house down, be sure that at least some of you burn to death in it.
Chris Martinez
Boo, ABL, booooooo!
Corner Stone
@Chris Martinez: Just what the hell kinds of sauce are you in favor of?
300baud
@MattMinus:
The point isn’t about identity, it’s about tyranny of of the majority. It’s about whether a system concentrates power or diffuses it.
Bill Donohue is a rich white male defending the power of one of the world’s oldest organizations to influence or outright dominate important chunks of our culture. We shouldn’t take him very seriously because his goal isn’t fairness, it’s greater dominance.
On the other hand it’s worth paying more attention when somebody in a non-dominant group, especially one with a history of bad treatment at the hands of the majority, points out something offensive. They aren’t always right, but they’re much more likely to be right than somebody who hasn’t been on the receiving end of that sort of prejudice.
DecidedFenceSitter
On the issue of closing comments?
I’m remembering going round and round with John Cole on the use of White Phosphorus in Fallujah. Or Michael D on anything fair tax, or hell E.D. Kain on just about anything.
If you can’t stand the fact that the discussion is happening, leave the discussion, otherwise mix it up.
Chris Martinez
@John Cole: How can you leave this?? By the end, someone will be proven Wrong, and someone will be proven Right! Don’t you want to see the Final Correct Answer?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Sixers:
I could be wrong, but I don’t think that ABL would have reacted the same way if the original offending comment had read:
See the difference? Change two words and it goes from infantilization of a huge set of people, based on the color of their skin, to a critique of a single person’s reaction.
Allan
Comments were never closed on the same article posted at ABL’s site. People who were interested in continuing the discussion were, and remain, free to chat over there. So some who are swanning and drama-queening about the injustice of shutting down discussion, and what a bad person ABL is for having done so, might consider adjusting their feedback with that simple reality in mind.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: Thank you. But since people seem to have hair triggers lately, let me emphasize that I was not rethinking anything about torture itself (torture = bad. immoral, crime against humanity, etc.), but rather, as you said, I am working on how to argue the question with those who might be open to persuasion.
Stillwater
@John Cole: Noted. I’ll make sure Allan is the last one out.
Chris Martinez
@Corner Stone: I’m glad you asked. Unfortunately, at this time, I still need to conduct additional research into the Sauces issue. I will release a statement shortly.
Corner Stone
@Allan: Wow! Thanks mister!
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@Corey:
Anyone with eyes half open who wants to weigh in on a conversation such as this will know which words and phrases are land mines best left unused. The poster using this phrase knew it was loaded and coded and yet could still give them a measure of plausible deniability.
But, the thing is, it shouldn’t give them such cover. Anyone who’d use a phrase like that in a conversation about race needs to be called out as the bomb thrower they clearly are. *No* cover. *No* “well, let’s not be too hasty to assume the worst…”
Assume the worst. And if the person using such a phrase genuinely didn’t realize that —
Aw, fuck it. They knew what they were doing, unless they’re age 10.
AAA Bonds
Wow, I didn’t know you closed the comments on that thread because of a single comment, but damn. That’s pretty funny that you felt it necessary to do so. Thanks for the story!
Oh, and you’re crossposting a comment that agrees with you, from another blog, on that story, here on this one. Cool.
Look: just don’t close the comments. Balloon Juice is not about to be overrun by Neo-Nazis. There’s plenty of readers willing to take the wind out of racists they detect.
Corner Stone
@Chris Martinez: May I suggest Oma’s Habanero Sauce?
Freakin delicious.
Allan
@Stillwater: There you go again. WaterGirl is going to be very disappointed in you. I hope you can live with her opprobrium.
different church-lady
@Chris Martinez:
Fixed.
Corner Stone
@Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity: Can I just ask you? How does vibrancy compare against schmuckosity?
And what’s next in the evolution of the Pantload?
60th Street
@Chris Martinez: @Corner Stone: I had some Pain 100% on a slab o’ carne asada yesterday.
Eyeball melty deliciousness…..
Corner Stone
@Tim, Interrupted: I don’t know if you noticed it Tim, but J0e Bee$e just got a timeout for innocently remarking on a picture of someone here, too.
Word to the wise peeps. Don’t let the extortion man get ya.
eemom
@WaterGirl:
I had a friend who used to say, “I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.”
Johnny Coelacanth
@Stillwater: “Not when the comments are closed.” Well played, sir.
Phoebe
Ok, I’m taking the “let’s have a discussion” at face value, and with trepidation, but here goes:
This statement is of course completely true, but also irrelevant to the point that maybe the picture denigrating “white trash” or whatever was a bad idea. It’s the same false logic behind Gitmo defenders saying “but nothing we’ve done can compare to those people who beheaded that reporter and blah blah blah 9/11”. Yeah: 9/11 was bad. Not in dispute. But there is no moral authority that victims get, there just isn’t. Morals are morals, you have them or you don’t, you live up to them or you don’t. Nobody gets a pass because of what was done to them. Nobody should want a pass.
But I didn’t see the picture as racist, just classist, I guess. I, as a white collar white person, was not remotely offended by that picture, as it didn’t remotely hit me where I live.
So is it okay to be classist? That is not a rhetorical question, I just want to know. I hate Sarah Palin and the whole anti-elitism mentality, and I hate it from an elitist perspective. I’m an elitist. I think smart people should be running things. But I hate hate hate the idea that a professor is “better” — not better at this or that but just “better” — than a car mechanic because he can spell better or got better grades or whatever.
That kind of mentality is swirling around in our atmosphere unopposed in lots of places, and has for ages, and I believe it’s come back to bite us in the form of Sarah Palin and her whole grievance-based jihad against the elites. The people who think they’re better than she is intrinsically, and not just, oh, more honest or less vindictive or whatever. It probably sounds like I’m splitting hairs. But I think it’s a hair that needs splitting.
First: Making someone feel inferior — as opposed to offering constructive criticism in a particular area — is not what I want to do. This is front and center with me because I teach kids who are behind in school. I would never, in a million years, call them “stupid” or write them off, and sure, children are more sympathetic, but why not treat everyone with the same fundamental respect as a person?
And second: Whether or not you agree with the above, it’s just not pragmatic. Remember what happened in Sleeping Beauty when they dissed the 13th fairy and didn’t invite her to the christening? She crashed it and put a curse on the baby. When you cast someone out, make him your enemy, he will eventually come back and bite you because that shit hurts. You don’t have to do it, so don’t.
LG
I get sooo sick of white people ignorant of white privilege and who make no attempt to even acknowledge that others’ experience may be different from their own — and I am white. I can’t image the BS black people in America have to put up with. Kudos to you for your commentary. I hope it does make a difference.
Brachiator
@Allan:
As a general rule, I would not be interested in going to another site to continue a discussion, and would see it as bad faith if anyone (yeah, I am talking about you, ED Kain) made a habit of this kind of lame misdirection.
Chris Martinez
@Corner Stone: So, I presume this Sauce of which you speak would be categorized as “Awesome,” not “Weak?”
I shall conduct research on said Sauce and deliver a statement within 10 business days. It may require the addition of a new category of sauce – one that properly adheres to Regulated Internet Parlance – such as, perhaps, “Epic,” “Epic Fail,” or, going Internet Vintage, “Best. Sauce. Ever.”
Mark S.
Closing a comment thread is just like 1938 Munich.
geg6
ABL, I love what you do and you just keep on doing it in whatever way feels best for you. That thread made my stomach hurt when I read it yesterday morning. And I realized that my stomach hurts many times when you post because you seem to attract a level of vitriol from some of the BJ commentariat that no one else does, a vitriol that always seems to be based on your race and sex (Anne Laurie and Kay sometimes get sexist asshole, but not like you do). I totally get why you couldn’t take it another second (well, as much as a lily white woman can anyway), but next time you reach that point, just walk away and let those of us who love your work wrangle the assholes for you. I, for one, would be happy to let some of the dickheads in this very thread know exactly how dickish they truly are. Thankfully, unlike Beese and that other asshole who started all of this, the dickheads in this thread might actually be educable in regard to their Shiite male privilege. I hope so, anyway.
Cat Lady
Now the rotating ad banner at the top is for eHarmony and asks “What if you could just be you? Love begins here.”
Win.
Chris Martinez
@different church-lady: Wrong!
sublime33
Anyone who uses the phrase “you people” is going to paint everyone in some particular group with the same brush in the next sentence if not sooner.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Phoebe:
Funny, that, because I’ve got a couple of friends who look a hell of a lot like that guy, and they’re both white collar guys.
Allan
@Brachiator: As I said, you might want to consider that reality when calibrating your level of outrage. Or not. Your call.
IM
May I ask a question What does mensplaining or whiteplaining mean? Is it a play on complaining or explaining or both?
BlizzardOfOz
@60th Street
If there’s a better argument against banning certain words and phrases because some people find them offensive, I haven’t seen it. Anyway, maybe you should publish a complete list somewhere so everyone knows what words are verboten.
General Stuck
I love it when people complain in comments of a blog about comments of that blog being shut down.
Bob Loblaw
@stuckinred:
Everything’s a fuckin’ travesty with you, man! And what was all that shit about Vietnam? What the FUCK has anything got to do with Vietnam? What the fuck are you talking about?
Yeah, no shit. Why, it’s almost as though I was mocking you, as I do for everything else. Count me out as a productive member of the Great Internet Conversation on Race Relations in America and Almighty Consciousness Raising Extravaganzafest. Let me know when you solve racism in the comment section of balloon juice, though.
WaterGirl
@eemom:
I actually think that’s a lot better. Seriously. That is at least allowing for the possibility that they could be wrong. I could have a conversation with that person. (And it did make me laugh when I first read it.)
DecidedFenceSitter
As far as moving to another to continue it? Why bother, she’d already demonstrated that she didn’t like the tone of comments, and going to comment in her journal would probably just end up with the person being banned.
I didn’t see the post till long after it was closed (I read in the mornings generally, so anything posted later I miss till after the shooting is done); however, I make it a rule not to start shit in some one else’s house without at least their tacit permission. Which means if I were the one mixin’ it up, I would have taken it as a sign that she’d rather I didn’t take my argument back to her blog.
eemom
@Brachiator:
Seconded. As an unhinged ranter myself, I have a great deal of respect for the way Omnes consistently focuses on the subject at issue and never, ever, devolves into personal attacks.
That said, I HAVE wondered what might lurk beneath all those layers of civility, integrity, and diplomacy…….if someday, properly provoked, the good man might unleash his Inner Asshole, and put all of us lesser assholes to shame…..
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@General Stuck:
Houston, it looks like we’ve got another Balloon Juice Conundrum on our hands.
Duncan Dönitz (formerly Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@Tim, Interrupted:
@eastriver:
Shit. I wrote a whole long screed and the fucking computer ate it. Son of a bitch. I’ll try to recall most of it…
This shit just keeps on bubbling up again and again. It’s her fault for feeling pissed off. She should get over it. She has issues. That’s great, but what if this were the case: What if you were a member of a minority in a country, and that if the majority had systematically beaten down and exploited and dehumanized your group for 350 years, and then when at last, 50 years after they had grudgingly broken down the legal aspects of this oppression, they said to you, “Jeez, this is all behind us, would you just shut up and stop whining already? What more do you want? Can’t you just stop bringing this up over and over and making us feel guilty? Stop being such losers and pull yourselves up by your bootstraps already!” I daresay you might have a few “issues” yourself. I sure as hell would. Hell, I have issues now, and I’ve led about as charmed a life as anybody who’s ever lived.
I get so sick of whites who whine about how emotional and bomb-throwy all these damned black people are. Why can’t they just be happy? What more do they want from us?
What more do they want from us? That’s really what I read behind all this crap. We freed them from slavery. We gave them equal rights, at least on paper. Why can’t they just shut up and leave us alone?
That’s what it comes down to. Too many whites want black Americans to shut up about this because talking about it makes some of us feel guilty or uncomfortable or awkward. It’s easier to just not think about it, or it would be, if only these damned black people–I mean there’s just no pleasing them, is therer?–would let it go. If only they’d just let it drop, we could get on with our lives. And I guess we could, most of us. But black Americans don’t have the choice to just let it drop. They don’t have that choice because they deal with the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow every day. They can’t just shut their eyes to it, any since society is always shoving it in their faces.
So, yes, a lot of black people want to talk about this. A lot of them are pissed off. They should be. We all should be. And we need to talk about it. And talking about it is going to make us, white people, feel bad sometimes. We’re going to feel guilty sometimes for things we had nothing to do with, like slavery. We’ll feel guilty because it was wrong and there’s nothing we can do to change what happened, and we, whites, still derive all kinds of unearned advantages from its legacy. Sometimes some black person might say something intemperate and hurt our feelings. But, shit, do we have any right, any moral right, to weasel out of this talk just because we don’t want to feel bad, just because it’s easier to look the other way? I don’t think so.
I’d bet that just about any black American would gladly trade places with most of us, would gladly bear the burden of some hurt feelings now and then, if it meant they wouldn’t have to be on the wrong end of society’s lingering racism. How many white people would make that same trade? Would you? Unless you can truthfully say that being made to feel bad once in a while is worse than having to deal with pervasive, if nebulous, racism, then just shut up about your hurt feelings and deal with this problem like a grownup.
MBL
The problem, ABL, is that being black doesn’t somehow shield you from being wrong. There are enough people on both sides of this that neither side gets to claim his intent was plain.
I’m entertained by the implicit suggestion that if Fred had just said “you dumb motherfuckers” instead of “you people” that this whole thing could have been avoided.
Steve
I completely understand why ABL felt offended by that comment. However, I do think (and hope) the writer meant liberals, not black people.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
as far as i am concerned, it explains why abl was offended. that is more than you usually get in the blog world.
i don’t really care to pick the various moral entitlements, or act like there is anything binding to any agreement about who gets to be offended about what, when, and how. because any such agreement is retroactively applicable to only this past imbroglio, and will not be a precedent for future rhubarbs. i thought the picture was funny. it didn’t occur to me to be offended for myself or on behalf of any one else.
eco2geek
Hello? Do you read the comments here? It doesn’t take being angry at a sexist, racist, or homophobic comment to have some perfect stranger start slinging shit at you; all you have to do is post something they feel like mocking. You’re probably not familiar with Usenet, but the comments here often remind me of comments in unmoderated Usenet newsgroups, only with more intelligent posters. Just as vicious, though.
This is not exactly news. If you don’t feel like dealing with it, perhaps you should close the comments on your posts.
Mudge
Now you are are someone I’d like to have a beer with.
Brachiator
@Phoebe:
This is very good, but it cuts both ways. Palin appeals to an American tradition of anti intellectualism that vehemently asserts that the only people who matter are the “ordinary people” who only have a high school education or who shrugged off any negative effects of going to college by partying and not taking anything seriously. Added to this is the slimy assertion that the only Real Americans(tm) are white Republicans who live on Main Street in small cities and towns. It is not easy to say which came first, elitism or anti elitism in America.
WaterGirl
@Phoebe: I really liked your comment. Every word.
I didn’t think the picture was racist, but it did make me uncomfortable, though I couldn’t exactly definite why. Your post gave me the key word I couldn’t put my finger on – classist – and to answer your question, I don’t think it’s okay to be classist.
There are a lot of white collar guys who look just like that who are not racist, and I think it’s a mistake to equate the two. When we do that it hurts everyone, and adds another obstacle to the change we are trying to move toward.
miwome
YES. YES. YES. WU. TANG. WU. TANG.
Honestly, ABL, you’re my favorite front-pager here. (The shock! The horror!) Purple lace gloves for all.
Feudalism Now!
Not to sound like a support group member but I am Feudalism and I am a white male heterosexual married episcopalian in the wilds of rural Upstate New York. I have won the privilege sweepstakes at birth.
First, race relations is not a zero sum game. Treating people as people has no value attached because humanity is not affected by scarcity.
I can empathize and have awareness all I want but I have only a tangential experience to any kind of -ism that affects me personally. I can experience all sorts of the infliction of any sort -ism on others, however. The capitulation of people not to stop dergradation and diminishment is what allows them to continue for generations
Corner Stone
@Chris Martinez: I would categorize as “Damned tasty”.
It’s got a lot of bite to it but really good flavor as well. And it flows like a good sauce should, with great texture but not chunkiness.
Great snacking sauce, and monolithic as a topper for nachos. Which I am a conno sewer of.
Church Lady
ABL can sling it, but she sure can’t take it. Her skin is so thin, it’s a wonder she doesn’t bleed every time she touches something.
Omnes Omnibus
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): FWIW I think there are a couple of different strains of white collar, middle class Caucasians in the US. One, I think, comes out of a elite culture model and is probably closely identified with the NE US. The other is based on a popular culture model and uses increased income to buy “nicer” versions of ordinary goods. Fancy pickup trucks, etc. This strain is more southern. I am not a sociologist, so this may be bullshit or may just be poorly explained. I don’t know.
geg6
LOL, fucking iPhone. That should be “white male privilege”, not “Shiite male privilege”.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@Corner Stone:
Vibrancy and schmuckosity don’t need to compete for oxygen – they can play off each other quite nicely. “There’s no schmuck like vibrant schmuck,” my granpappy always used to say (at least, after the stroke – before then, he was capable of availing himself to a large part of the entire English language).
So far as whither the Pantload? Depends on what meme or phrase arises that I find worth lifting.
Johnny Coelacanth
“If you burn the house down, be sure that at least some of you burn to death in it.”
That’s the kind of loving care I’ve come to expect around this place. Kinda makes me weepy. Come back soon, darling {sobs}.
miwome
@AAA Bonds: If you think it was due to “a single comment” then hang on a minute while I get you a trophy for Missing The Point. Be right with you.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Steve:
The writer had a chance to clarify himself but chose to double down on the vagaries. Take a look.
wasabi gasp
Joan Walsh fucked this blog in the ass, hard.
spartacus
At least no one is talking about what ABL thinks about torture any more.
Chris Martinez
@geg6:
Calling all undergraduate Sociology majors – THESIS TOPIC ALERT, THESIS TOPIC ALERT.
Alison
@MBL: Please show me where in the God damn hell she said being black shields her from being wrong? Show me where she even implied that she thinks so.
What the fuck is wrong with some people here. Good fucking lord.
The CONTEXT of saying “you people” to a POC is important. Just like when Romney said – and quickly corrected himself because he realized how it fucking sounded – something about hanging Obama with something…no, no one though he really meant he wanted to hang Obama with a noose, but the FUCKING CONTEXT OF TALKING ABOUT HANGING IN REGARD TO A POC IS WHAT MATTERED, and even fucking Romney realized that.
And again, racism doesn’t have to be running around in a white sheet screaming NIGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRSSS in order to be racism, and way too many fucking white people think that if they vote for Dems and put up an MLK quote in their FB status on his birthday then there’s no way they could be racist and OMGZ HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THAT BECAUSE YOU’RE TOTALLY RUINING THIS AWESOME DISCUSSION WE’RE HAVING. Despite the fact that said discussion is making some people feel like shit. But who cares about that, right?
Keith G
I missed the whole thing yesterday. After reading ABL’s statement above, I am still mystified as to what the mechanics were that led a lawyer who blogs in an over-the-top, I’ll say what I damn well please, style to bug out on the concept of open communication.
So, it sounded like some folks were stupid and harsh – another day on the internet.
Yutsano
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): I was gonna say, there are guys who look like that up here pulling six figures easily.
60th Street
@BlizzardOfOz: I can do better, dear
srv
@WaterGirl:
I respect your right to be wrong.
Slowbama
Meta, check. Butt-hurt, check. Hyperbole, check. Anger management fail, check. Shit, I’m at Daily Kos.
Corner Stone
@wasabi gasp:
Joan just watched. Someone else has fucked this blog.
Phoebe
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
I know; profiling by physiognomy is often inaccurate. But it certainly tried, right? And I’m guessing your friends don’t fit the descriptions in the labels of the picture.
Stillwater
@Duncan Dönitz (formerly Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.): Look brother, we’re all pissed off about a lot of things, but personally, I don’t expect people to respect my views because of the level of my anger. Christ, if that were the criterion to justify policy or the truth, racist Repubicans would win hands down.
Lojasmo
@Allan:
hopefully, opinions of stillwater have been deeply and permanently formed long ago.
Bag of douche, right there.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Omnes Omnibus:
How can you tell which strain that guy might be?
Hell, my one problem with the original post is that the guy in the picture is anonymous. He might be some southern redneck tailgating outside of a NASCAR event. He could be a small business owner here in my city, volunteering at his church’s food booth at our annual festival of the arts. I don’t know. I don’t know if that guy in the picture drives a pickup or a Lexus.
All I do know is that he’s white, sweaty, wearing an apron, and his hair is doing something…Unfortunate…while the photo was being made. Hell, my hair has done funky things like that all on it’s own, but that doesn’t say a damned thing about my views on race or about where I work.
ALL CAPS
@General Stuck:
I don’t follow this ‘tell.’ when I read the comment I thought ‘you people’ referred to the people who enabled the stoopid by giving it attention. (Not sure why this advice doesn’t make sense for progressives. It’s the same advice regularly doled out by and to progressives vis-a-vis the obsession with Sarah Palin, for example.)
But you could be right; maybe I didn’t catch it. Would it be racist if I said ‘Only dogs can hear dog-whistles’?
AAA Bonds
@miwome:
Well, that’s what the author said – so, I’m prone to believe the author, and not you.
For what it’s worth, I can’t for the life of me grasp why someone would post on Balloon Juice and then shut down the comments for anything short of complete site disruption.
This is a place where racism is confronted. It’s not a place where it shuts things down.
Yutsano
@ABL: I just wanna say two things:
A) I lurve ya for being you.
B) There are levels of privilege on this blog that honestly make my heart hurt. Mostly because of the complete lack of self-awareness of said privilege. It’s like the last sixty years might as well have never happened.
BlizzardOfOz
@60th Street,
That’s nice, except that you just expanded the list to include normal English phrases. Why don’t we define racism as the expression of racist thoughts or intentions, not words that trigger something in your id that causes you discomfort.
Sixers
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Newsflash: There are assholes and racists on the internet.
So because some idiot posts something like you cited you shut the whole discussion down? Come on, man.
Also any explanation about ABL flipping out and shitting on this place via twitter when it was announced that Freddie De Boer was going to put some posts up here? I think Freddie questioned Obama on something and that was a good enough reason for ABL to have to take a break from the Balloon Juice.
I have really no strong feelings on the original race discussion but am just a curious observer of ABL and how she acts out when offended or feels threatened. I’m a Obama 2012 voter for sure so this isn’t some personal vendetta or closeted Obama hate. Its just a pattern of odd behavior thats been unfolding here from the get go from her that weirds this place up a bit and is.
yet another jeff
Was that supposed to be a redneck? I thought it was Jonah Goldberg.
sandy
The argument that one picture of a redneck simply does not stack up against 400 years of oppression of African-Americans would only be persuasive if human being were immortal. The sad truth is that every morning the whole world is made new again. 400 years of racism against one group does not entitle them to 400 years of racism against the offending group, and – far more importantly, if the goal is to free African-Americans from white racism – eliminating all racism is probably the way to go.
Stillwater
@Lojasmo: Whoa. Since you’re responding to ‘evidence-free assertion Allan’ here, you’re of course entitled to ‘just say stuff’. But I don’t even know you. Care to elaborate?
CT Voter
Just out of curiosity: did anyone bring up Jack Dovidio’s work on racism?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Phoebe:
Yeah, it seemed to, and I was a bit surprised that there wasn’t more of a discussion about that at the time. Had the discussion not been derailed, I have faith in ABL that she’d have admitted to going a bit too far there, which is a risk you take when you take a humorous approach to address serious issues.
eemom
@wasabi gasp:
in what way, Charlie?
MBL
@Alison: The entire post is about how white people can’t tell her something isn’t racist or offensive. The whole damn thing. Hell, everything she’s done over the last two days more or less boils down to her shielding herself from having to see people tell her she’s wrong.
None of that means that I think racism doesn’t exist or needs a white sheet. I think Fred’s words were ill-considered; he should have said “you stupid motherfuckers” instead. His post was, at worst, poorly written. I don’t think there’s a case to be made that he was referring to black people– hell, the use of “white wing” as an insulting replacement for “right wing” a few words later seems to make his intent clear.
On a side note, I am also attracted to internet stupid like a fly to shit, which is a personal flaw. I’m gonna try real hard to not come back here for a couple of days and hope that when I do things are less dumb. I suspect I’m not going to be successful.
Phoebe
@Brachiator:
Oh, believe me, I know! She’s completely guilty of the sin that was originally committed against her tribe. That’s what makes it darkly hilarious. It reminds me of a bumper sticker I recently saw that says something like: “Ban Republican Marriage! It’s immoral and disgusting! Hate is not a family value.” with a circle/slash over two mating elephants. I get that it’s a parody of what the homophobes say against gay marriage (whether Republican or not) but it seemed, pretty, you know, hateful. Not that it’s the best example, particularly if it was tongue in cheek. But I don’t think it was (and no, I wasn’t offended, or “butthurt”).
ALL CAPS
@BlizzardOfOz:
WaterGirl
Most of us know not to bring certain words to any meaningful conversation, because using those words immediately derails whatever meaningful conversation we were having.
You always…
You never…
Calm down.
Get over it.
And any kind of name-calling.
And yes… you people.
This is true whether you are talking to your boss, to your employee, to your friend, your spouse, your partner. To your parent, to your child, to the manager of the grocery store, to your teacher, to your student.
These are not productive words, but not everyone knows that, and sometimes even those who do know better lose our heads when there’s something that matters to us at stake.
I agree with those who suggest calling the person out on having used a phrase that makes us see red, but it’s more productive if we don’t resort to any of those same words or phrases when we do it.
JordanRules
@Slowbama: Ha! Mee too. And I’m not going to lie, although most of ABL’s posts are so necessary and I think the race talks are necessary, she’s starting to remind me of this one particular GOS poster that I used to find endearing and then just got on my nerves. (Bed of sarcasm followed by not making or sleeping in said bed, just leaving it hella messy)
ABL isn’t on my last nerve though, so that’s cool. And FWIW I still don’t understand why the comments were shut down because of one comment as she said. But I’m only slightly distracted by it.
Brachiator
@Allan:
I am not quite sure what your point is. I am not particularly outraged about the shutting down of comments. I understand it in part, but ultimately see it as a failure of imagination.
Lisa
@TRM: Go eat a rotten bag of dicks.
Omnes Omnibus
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Fuck, I don’t know. I was just using the opportunity to talk about my neat little theory.
Lisa
@WaterGirl: Thank you. Perfectly said.
mcd410x
I feel like (haha, no one cares!) closing comments is a bit like Nixon’s price and wage controls (soshulist!): Temporary help, not a long-term fox, or fix.
I enjoy coming here. When trolling begins on the front page, it sets the tone for the comments. It’s not right or wrong; it just is.
And finally, a shout-out for the Grizzlies. Win or lose tomorrow, I couldn’t be more proud. We sat through 5 of those 12 straight losses in the playoffs in the Pau Gutless era: To win 7 games and to be on the verge of the conference finals is truly wonderful. Growl towels up!!
mcd410x
I miss the days of subtlety and understatement to make a point. TNC points this out so well though his sharing of whatever he’s reading.
It’s an art form. A lost art.
Allan
@Brachiator: I see. Perhaps I’m misreading your tone based on the text-only nature of this exchange, and when you wrote “bad faith” and “lame misdirection” it was in sadness, more than anger. Thanks for clarifying.
eemom
I know no one’s going to pay attention to this, but here’s why I thought, at the time, that ABL shut down the comments on that post — and I think I am right based on what she says on this one.
It is because the substantive discussion about the picture, and the racism issues it evoked, got mixed up into the ad wominem abuse of ABL that turns up on every one of her threads. Armchair psychologist assholes analyzing ABL’s psyche amongst themselves became inextricable from folks actually trying to deal with the topic of the post.
You can’t defend a substantive position — especially one on the topic of racism that is itself inevitably fraught with emotion — AT THE SAME TIME that you are having to witness assholes taking pot-shots at you in the third person as if you weren’t there.
Let him/her who could put up with that among you cast the first whiny-ass stone about fucking comments being closed on a single fucking post.
Mark S.
The Eighth Circle of Hell:
Bolge I – Panderers and Seducers
Bolge II – Flatterers
Bolge III – Simoniacs
Bolge IV – Sorcerers, Soothsayers and Fortune Tellers
Bolge V – Barrators and Grafters
Bolge VI – Hypocrites
Bolge VII – Thieves
Bolge VIII – People Who Shut Down Comment Threads
Bolge IX – Sowers of Discord, Scandal and Schism
Bolge X – Falsifiers
Phoebe
@WaterGirl:
Did you mean “blue collar guys”? That’s how I read it at first, but either way: yeah, and good point.
It’s true that being called a racist, when you’re not, is not as hurtful as being the victim of racism (and yeah, I mean the anti-black kind. I do agree with the argument that it’s ridiculous to equate anti-black with anti-white, for the exact reason that “nigger” is a whole universe worse than “honky”; “honky” just does not sting, even if the intent is there to sting. Or “blue-eyed devil” for that matter.)
Where was I? Oh: It’s true that calling someone racist (when the someone isn’t racist) isn’t on a par with being racist, but it should still be avoided if possible, and apologized for when mistakenly done. Sure. Why not?
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@BlizzardOfOz:
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
General Stuck
@ALL CAPS:
The thing is, an argument for “you people” being liberals or progressives might make sense, if not for this particular commenter recently ranting in a number of comments about firebaggers and progressives, which I generally approve of, btw, not simply “liberals” which I think included himself, from the nature of his previous commenting. And having commented here for a while, Fred should be very aware that ABL is a card carrying Obot, like me and some others. The tell was a “get over it” delivery, imo. And if in fact this commenter wasn’t aware that using a term like “you people” addressing a black front pager here, they probly just should lurk instead of comment.
I don’t think this was the kind of virulent racism that comes from the right wing, but it is something that we on the left need to examine our thought processes and language and direct them away from the bigotry we profess to abhor. None of us are immune from it, entering our white brains, but if we are who we claim to be, we need to be fearless in self examination and fix things at home in our house first.
I sure don’t claim to have any deep or special knowledge about race relations, nor any claim to purity on sensitivity throughout my life, though never an overt racist, I have used terms that were wrong. Luckily, I also possessed the ability to tell myself, myself is full of shit and to change my language and thinking accordingly.
For me, having a black president I respect the hell out of and support, is an opportunity to self examine on a daily basis, which is all that is required imho, being imperfect humans.
All this hyperventilating over a comment section for one serious thread, is just about the dumbest fucking thing I have experienced on this blog.
eemom
@Johnny Coelacanth:
I know, wasn’t that sweet? That he didn’t hope ALL of us burned to death? SUCH an old softie. [sniff] Here, have a kleenex.
pika
Ack–off the blog for three days because of grading, and I come back and find out that this blog has been hit by white- privilege comment sh**storms like nearly every other blog I’ve frequented in the last few years. This stuff is *designed* to drive people–and POC not the least–out and off of the internet, a cyber way of saying, “This space, too, is not for you.” And when ABL asserts rightful control of *this* space, then *she* gets called the assaultive one, a repetition SO regular that you can set your watch by it, and one that is at the heart of Judith Butler’s long-ago assertion that, in the white imaginary, black people are “always and only endangering, but never endangered.”
BlizzardOfOz
@ALL CAPS,
My point wasn’t to define racism, it was to say that a definition of racism exists, and it isn’t “my feelings are hurt”. Thanks for the lecture, though … asshole.
Dee Loralei
@mcd410x: YAY Grizz!!! That game last night was fun. I have family in the OKC area, so we’ve been trash talking all week. But last night proved definitively that God loves me more. So I got that going for me.
BlizzardOfOz
@Studly Pantload,
Smug much?
jeff
As a member of the English speaking world, I understand as well as anyone the range of uses of the phrase “you people”. It is always derisive, but not always or even usually meant to indicate race. Instead, it directly addresses whoever the audience is when it is uttered. In the offending case, “you people” seemed to me to mean BJ in general.
ABL mentioned how “white wing” was used in the sentence as well. This is a common and, I think, really stupid way to insinuate that the right wing is simply a white group.
So, ABL can easily have made the connection that the commenter was calling black writers dupes for falling for the right wing’s taunts and diversions and getting distracted from more important things.
That doesn’t exactly make sense in the context, but it’s the best I can muster. Also, it makes a lot more sense than thinking that this particular commenter was using intimidation toward ABL alone, and alone because of race.
I had a nasty interaction here just before ABL did. I was disheartened that Glenn Greenwald–not GG’s argument–was attacked as a whiny bitch. Given history, I’m certain this is just kicking a gay man because it’s too much effort to kick his argument. So, I briefly asked that people stop the gay bashing. Everyone who commented complained that I was being a Drama Queen and worse, or complained about how fascist the demands of the political correct crowd are.
I apologized. I understood that the people who responded to me by calling me a bunch of gay stereotypes were taunting me to see if I fell for the gay-baiting or accepted that they are pure-minded and above bigotry. Several readers who stumbled upon the discussion agreed with me. The truth is that there are some really nasty people who always lurk here and who think of themselves as so advanced and so progressive that a comment is not racist or gay-bashing when it comes out of their own enlightened mouths. These people suck. Keep in mind when you question ABL what kind of fucking self-righteous shitheads there are amongst us. Don’t tolerate these really questionable or outright bigoted comments all week then get offended when ABL or anybody else finds herself interpreting an ambiguous comment as an offside attack.
Lisa
I was looking at my list of daily blog reading. Balloon Juice has always been at the top of my list and will remain so. But many of the blogs that I used to like have dropped off the list because I can’t stand the raging, minddfucking privilege.
I find that the only things I am reading now are written by black or Hispanic bloggers. I don’t hate white people or anything, but the privilege and obnoxious sense that “I know EVERYTHING about EVERYONE so shut up and listen, my sweet darklings” just burns my fat black ass. I, unlike you, am not feisty, energetic, or witty enough to fight with the motherfuckers about it. So I just go away and let them pat each other on the ass about how amazing they are and how blacks need to get over racism because it is so over.
Fuck it, maybe I don’t give a fuck about this rat hole of a country enough to want to argue with white people about race. If you think racism is not a problem, or you think that YOU get to decide what is racist, then we are done. Go fucking kill yourself and leave me alone because I don’t have the energy to say another word to your pathetic ass.
Most people on this site are rad. They have the raddest commenters in the world (besides Wonkette). But the kids who are still nipping at your heels are never going to change. They are right and you are black and that is that.
So fuck them where they breathe.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@yet another jeff:
That was a different post in which appeared The Great Doughy One.
Here’s the “offending” pic:
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/05/13/anti-white-bias-on-the-rise-really-oy-vey/
So, yeah, it’s a picture of a white dude with some textual embellishment. The point wasn’t to make fun of a white person, but of a mindset all too many white people in this country have.
Missing the point – gosh, that’s so darn rare around here…
existential fish
I’m seriously questioning if it’s ever worth commenting here. There’s great commenters, but is it worth the effort?
I’ll keep reading the RSS feed though. It’s just the commenters that aren’t worth my time.
ABL & #TFY #FTW
Lisa
@pika: Right on! That is exactly what they are trying to do.
dcmartin
For all of the people offended by the photo that accompanied the original post that got the trolls rolling on their little Orc Parade in the first place……..did any of you bother to put it into context with the post’s subject matter, or did you just drop into default “oh noes, ABL is up on her The Man Is Hurting My Feelings So Now I’m Going To Insult Him mode and boy am I sick of that shit” mode and not actually read and understand the piece and the illustration used to highlight it?
Most of you seem to have read it in a haze of “Man, did that picture offend me (even though I’ve made a thousand jokes about That Guy every time I see a Tea Party rally on the news), and I’m going to give that bitch a piece of my offended mind that didn’t comprehend what the fuck I just read”, and are pissed off at the people who DID get it, and are also more interested in bleating about your poor comprehension skills rather than debating the real subject at hand. Which is sad, because it could be a good discussion. People like eastriver are the ones who need to “man up and keep swinging”. Better yet, play the correct game to start with….you don’t need a bat at a chess match.
Stillwater
@eemom: I disagree. I think there is a way to have a substantive debate about those issues without it degenerating to ad wominems (nice usage!) and preventative racism, and it’s this: DON’T BE SO INFLAMMATORY!
If ABL really wanted to have a discussion about these issues instead of (ISTM) slapping us in the head with her knowledge, then merely make the substantive point and let the discussion proceed. That some people fail to perceive the substantive point is either a) the fault of the poster/post or b) the whole point of the post! But getting pissed because of both a) and b) is self-defeating. And crazy.
60th Street
@BlizzardOfOz: I’m not sure which “normal English phrase” you feel doesn’t qualify, but I’ll tell you what, let’s field test that.
You come over here to Chicago’s South Shore, we’ll walk South from 60th Street, and I’ll stand by, silent, as you tell my neighbors to “get over themselves”. Throw in a few “you people”s, while you’re at it, for good measure, and see how that flies. I’d save “uppity” ’til last, though. No, really.
Corner Stone
@pika: Yes, you totes nailed down what happened.
Kudos to you, kudos.
AAA Bonds
close thread, replace all comments but mine with this
60th Street
@General Stuck: Yes!
Suffern ACE
@Stillwater: Hmmm. My experience is that in anonymous but open forums, discussions never proceed down that path, whether or not they start out inflamatory.
Corner Stone
@jeff:
I can’t believe you would be so insensitive to use the word “muster” in this discussion. WTF is wrong with you?
Dirk Gently
Racism is not a thing one wields by choice, or an “intent”. It is formed discursively, meaning you can be racist even (or perhaps especially) when you’re not “a racist.”
This is kind of a hard concept to wrap one’s head around, and it’s why white people get so offended when their (our) utterances are called out as being racist, because hardly anyone’s “a racist” even though nearly everyone is guilty of racism.
Think of it this way, black folks: if you’ve ever met a kid who’s never told no, how angry do you get when this kid gets petulant when you tell him/her no? I mean, you wanna smack that kid, but it’s also kind of not their fault. Similarly, I can only think of a SINGLE instance of being the victim of racism in my nearly 34 years on this earth, and as a white, middle class male that’s probably not unusual–and for that reason it seemed particularly shocking, even though it was very mild and had almost no significant consequence. So that’s the little extra in addition to the lack of empathy.
(And yes, I see the irony of my comment coming across as telling black people how to feel and react.)
60th Street
@Lisa: That was so very Awesome.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Sixers:
The details of that particular kerfuffle are fuzzier to me than they seem to be to you, except that ABL also came back and explained her break, which was due not to those events but to her health and her real world job. In that same time-frame she was not posting at her own blog, either.
But I think we’re talking apples and oranges here. She scrapped over the deBoer thing, and she took heat (from the usual suspects who’d have applied heat had the thing never happened) without shutting down the comments. That is, I think it takes a whole lot more than shots at her own bad self to do something as drastic as shutting down comments.
And I’ve got some familiarity with shutting down comments at a busy blog. It ain’t done lightly. There are times when the comments- which if you think about it, are secondary in importance to the OP itself- get so ugly that they make any sort of discussion impossible. The only entities that see positive results from a firestorm in the blog-o-sphere are those who get paid for the bandwidth.
jeff
@Corner Stone:
That doesn’t even make sense, but keep trying…I’m sure you can find something better.
Phoebe
@jeff:
Yeah, and it creeps me out when they do it to Andrew Sullivan too. Usually they don’t — they stick to clobbering him for his many wrongnesses — but sometimes they slide that stuff in there, and when they do, I get an extra understanding of why he doesn’t have comments on his site. If people here, who are generally nicer and smarter (if no less abrasive) than the average internet thug are doing it, imagine what his in-tray must look like.
I am with the people who prefer comments to be not closed, but do I understand why she did it? Do I sympathize? OF COURSE.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@BlizzardOfOz:
The clue was offered, but Blizzard Wasn’t Receiving. Hence, I scorn in your general direction.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Omnes Omnibus:
Heehee….k3wl.
AAA Bonds
close thread, replace all comments but mine with this
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@jeff:
Point taken. And I don’t mean that in a smug or sarcastic way.
Cheers.
Stillwater
@Suffern ACE: You didn’t notice the ALL CAPS LOCK part of the comment? Maybe you’re saying that the subject matter – even without the standard issue ABL hyperbole – is inflammable. Maybe you’re right. But if the purpose of a post is to change people’s minds, or at least open them up, then I don’t see how making people more defensive at the outset is gonna help.
Corey
One fascinating thing about this whole argument/discussion is how liberals are prone to abuse sociological and anthropological concepts in the same way wingers are prone to abuse economic ones. The abuse even happens for the same reason: to claim victory and shut down further discussion (can’t you imagine a RedState thread ending with “because the free market said so, that’s why”?)
Duncan Dönitz (formerly Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@Stillwater:
It isn’t the anger that’s the issue here. It’s the righteousness of the anger. Maybe that isn’t the best way to put it; but, really, legitimate anger over 400 years of racism is miles from lame-ass, indefensible, selfish anger built upon racism, whether open or latent.
AAA Bonds
close thread, replace all comments but mine with this
Corner Stone
@jeff: Muster? You know? “muster” ??
How could you be so non understanding?
Yutsano
@eemom:
STOLED!!
@pika: @Lisa: I’m gay and half Jewish, yet even I had to finally recognize just how fucking privileged I am just by the color of my skin. Hell white people will still accept me as one of “them” even when I do admit that I have some outgroup tendencies. It becomes the attitude of, “Well, at least you’re not one of THEM!” and it sickens me. It sickens me even more because I used to think that just because I was liberal that was enough. I had to basically get the sense knocked into my pea brain that I was telling POCs how to feel and being dismissive of their experiences instead of understanding that they had a whole other life experience outside my little bubble. I still work on it. But the first thing that has to happen is you have to wake up.
CT Voter
@jeff:
Amen. I rarely comment, but always read, and this one sentence describes a minority of commenters to a Tee.
Corner Stone
@IM:
Specifically, IMO, people who use those terms are suggesting that some things are just not evident to the oblivious group conjoined with the word “explaining”.
So, in the case of “whitesplaining”, the author is suggesting that they need to flesh out and explain how damaging or disingenuous a certain term or phrase is, because the white person they are talking to is too privileged or obtuse to realize other people exist on the planet.
ALL CAPS
@BlizzardOfOz:
Settle down, Jizzard. It’s totally my mistake for thinking you were defining racism. It was the “Why don’t we define racism as yadda yadda et cetera” that through me off.
DecidedFenceSitter
@Corner Stone: Heh, I’ve always seen it used when a member of the privileged group tries to explain what is really going on/what they really meant.
Observer
@Stillwater:
You forced me to take 20 minutes to look something up on Sullivan’s site about race. It’s just an anecdote from a parent with kids on sports teams talking about racial attitudes. But it applies here too. Over and above whatever style issues some may have with ABL, there’s this going on underneath. Personally, I would have closed the comments too, ABL is right, you are wrong and generally you’re just being jerks. But mainly because the sort of thing underlying the anecdote.
Here’s a couple of quotes but RTWT:
and no, not just in redneck towns:
Brachiator
@eemom:
Yep. Unfortunately, this is an example of the worst thing about the InterTubes. There are people who confuse wit and snark, and who attack precisely because they have nothing interesting (let alone substantive) to say about anything, but who crave attention. Added to this is the strange warped mentality of people who desperately need to put a woman or a person of color in her or his “place.” By the way, I see this last bit all the time in the real world, in business meetings and informal conversations where fools invoke the “oh, you only think or believe that because you’re a girl.”
And didn’t Trump do this kind of shit when he accused a black reporter asking a question of inherently being pro-Obama?
And this shit is continuing here in people who want to obsess over the thickness of ABL’s skin rather than consider the value or the riskiness of closing a discussion.
This kind of thing goes with the territory, unfortunately. A person of color, a woman, a gay or transgendered person, is going to have to deal with people who get nervous that such a person would dare to have an opinion. Otherwise you get the kind of insidious foolishness that some people actually prefer, that is, a bunch of white people sitting around talking about what people of color should think and feel.
And then there are the people who can have only one black friend at a time and believe that TNC is the only black blogger in the entire universe.
ALL CAPS
@General Stuck:
Thank you for that thoughtful reply; I wasn’t aware of Fred’s repertoire.
.
In my view, we are all of us racist in some ways, and not all racism is necessarily negative.
Corner Stone
@DecidedFenceSitter: You mean like, “Oh, I didn’t mean ‘you people’ I meant assholes.” ?
Yeah, I guess that could be it. I was going with how I’ve seen it used, but that makes sense too now that you mention it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Yutsano: Okay, fine. Just imagine how horrible it can be when if you have no out group tendencies. Some of the haters of [insert outgroup here] just assume that everyone sees things the way they do. They will look around to see if any [insert outgroup here] is around and then launch into some of the ugliest commentary imaginable as though everyone who is not a [insert outgroup here] would naturally agree. I have tried polite disagreement, loud disagreement, expressions of disgust, and simply getting up and leaving. Nothing seems satisfactory. I always end up wondering if I did or said something that made them think I was sympathetic to their views. For me, it makes for uncomfortable social situations. For outgroup members, it is obviously much much more.
IM
@Corner Stone:
Thank you. So it is laborious explaining to people with a blind spot.
Bob Loblaw
Gee whiz, gang, all this talk about privilege is just going right over my head.
Broad strokes, when do we get to kill whitey? Because I am all for it. It’s time.
Phoebe
@Stillwater: @Duncan Dönitz (formerly Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.):
I’m going to wade into this because I have a LOT of procrastinating to do and because I’ve been thinking of this topic a lot lately.
Stillwater:
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob Loblaw:
FWIW, I am opposed to such a course of action. I think it would be imprudent at this juncture.
Lisa
Yutsano: I heart your comment so hard.
I have been watching many of my fellow black people struggle with the idea that the struggles of the LBGT community are front and center – if we let them go down, we might as well roll up the last 60 years and get back to picking cotton. We can’t lose this one. We can’t lose the continued struggle against the patriarchy either or we might as well say fuck it.
I guess my point is that to be a progressive is to be pro-humanity. No one should have to “show their papers” because they are black and have a funny name or because they happen to be driving around while having the nerve to look “Mexickin”; they should not get paid 40% less because they have tits; they should not have to “get over” endless watermelon, monkey, witchdoctor, and “you niggers shure are stoopid” jokes; they should be able to marry (and then cheat on each other then get divorced); there should not be a “second tier” set of family and partnership rules for them (so that the non-gays can still feel like they are better and have more goodies).
And look, if WE don’t get that – then we sure as hell are not going to win any struggles against the scared, confused folks that the right wing holds in its thrall.
I mean, if you are trying to convince grandma that it is bad to call people niggers while secretly harboring the thought that they are TOTALLY niggers and need to shut the fuck up – you will fail.
Stillwater
@Observer: Personally, I would have closed the comments too, ABL is right, you are wrong and generally you’re just being jerks.
So here’s what you’re arguing: 1) there is measurable racism in this country, 2) it needs to be pointed out, 3) but no discussion or dissension for the purpose of exposing it and changing people’s minds is allowed or permitted.
I don’t see how simply repeating over and over and over that there is racism in this country while simultaneously refusing to engage with racist people accomplishes anything except to ameliorate and perpetuate the feelings of those who take this issue seriously. And your personal feelings won’t change a damn thing unless you change other people’s feelings because of that.
Christ, is the confusion here really this simple? What do you hope to achieve by saying I’m wrong in believing that the comments ought to have been left open? Do you think that otherwise liberal people would be persuaded to adopt radical racist views? What do you think you’re accomplishing by telling me (over and over again) what I already know?
Corner Stone
@IM: That is how I previously understood the term. But DecidedFenceSitter suggested I was incorrect, and UrbanDictionary states it is where white people tell people of color how they should handle their business.
So, hell, let me say I’m no longer sure how that term is used.
Yutsano
@Omnes Omnibus: This may sound odd, but: grow your hair long. Nothing too wild or out of control, just enough to tie back in a neat ponytail in the courtroom and to sit on your shoulders in casual situations. For some odd reason it’s a signal that you just might not be of the same frame of mind as they are. Plus I bet the Mme would enjoy playing with it.
Snowwy
@pika:
THIS
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@Bob Loblaw:
I actually liked it better when you expressed having no interest in this discussion.
ABL
To the Jackass Brigade, I would suggest keeping this thread at least tangentially on topic from here on out.
-ABL
benintn
Sometimes we forget that we’re actually human beings, don’t we? And of course, in cyberspace terms, many of us aren’t human beings. We’re just ciphers. Well, ABL, whenever you decide to come to Nashville, gimme a call and we’ll grab a meal together.
Lisa
Stillwater: I get exhausted talking to racist people. Especially ones who think they are not racist but “just telling my lazy black ass how it is”.
What the fuck is the point of me going 10 rounds with an asshole like that?
I talk about race matters mostly with non-whites – because they are living it and understand and we talk about ways to deal with it. Because that is what we do. We deal.
I don’t need to beg white people to be nice to me if they think I am shit because of my skin. I have better things to do.
Omnes Omnibus
@Yutsano: Mme Omnibus would not me with long hair. She is the reason that I no longer have floppy Hugh Grant hair. I take your point though. Do something to signal “weird.” OTOH, in some ways it is better for those people to out themselves. Otherwise, I might never know what kind of asshole they happen to be. I leave these conversations a sadder and a wiser man.
Keith G
@Corner Stone: I am glad you ‘slpained that.
David Moyes
Like so many things, much of the disagreement here seems to trace back to whether one thinks morality has (primarily) to do with intentions or consequences.
Language that causes hurt should be labeled racist even if that is not the speaker’s intention. But someone should only be called a racist if in some sense s/he intended her language to hurt (much as a coward might occasionally perform a brave act, possibly out of ignorance).
I have no idea which is the case with the troublemaking commenter, as I don’t know him from Adam. But what should be obvious is that his language did in fact cause hurt and it is pretty reprehensible to tell ABL she shouldn’t have been offended. That, as ABL noted, is even more offensive.
At the same time, it’s a little bit ridiculous to call somebody a racist without knowing what s/he meant. Saying hurtful things without hurtful intent is usually a sign of insensitivity (or privilege) and not of hard bigotry. (In this case it appears some people have evidence that the commenter was not merely insensitive, and he certainly never took the opportunity to explain himself, but I haven’t been here long.)
We can recognize that racism perseveres in large part because of systemic issues without thereby becoming consequentialists. Just as capitalism affects our behavior in all sorts of corrosive ways, racism warps our behavior for a good long while before it fully succeeds in corrupting our souls. If the goal is correcting behavior through education, then people should be told that their action was bad, not that they are bad.
Anton Sirius
@MBL:
I hope people noted the implicit assumption here that only white people’s opinions on whether ABL is wrong or not matter.
Dustin
ABL: Thanks for taking the time to explain why you closed the comments on your post. I strongly disagree with the concept of closing threads on principle, but thanks for explaining your position. It’s my hope that you’ll not do so again and instead let us slug it out as per BJ tradition.
Now, here’s where you and your defenders on this issue are going to attack me as being a latent racist if for one simple reason: the notion that I can’t be offended at racist statements/pictures/or jokes against white people because POC have a history of being victims is complete and utter bullshit. If someone acts in a racist manner I will call them out on it. It doesn’t matter what their race is, racism from anyone isn’t cool. Attack a person’s position, their opinion, their personal history. Attack them for things they’re directly responsible for. But never, and I mean never attack them for traits they were born with. Whether this is a white shop owner banning POC, a white person skirting a black birthday party because of unconscious fears of gang violence or a black person trashing on a fat white guy for no better reason than his appearance… none are acceptable behavior. They’re all bad, and they’re all disgusting. But even more disgusting is the knowledge that many people will see nothing wrong with item #3 and that I’m expected to take it because of shit that “I” (as a white person in America) did before my grandparents even fled the Emerald Isle in the 70’s.
You, ABL, regularly throw bombs at white people as a rhetorical device to prompt discussions. It works, but at a cost. You don’t get to ignore that as something that can be “whitesplained” away.
And just for the record, do you really not see how that term is offensive all on it’s own? Can you imagine the shitstorm that would result if I, as a pasty white irishman, were to say “I note, with no small amount of irony, that yet again I’ll have to dumb this down so you people can understand”? I can, and it ain’t pretty.
novum
I understand why ABL found that comment offensive, and certainly, in that context, its hard to argue that ‘you people’ was not meant to convey some racial offense.
However, the picture in the original post was not just offensive, but I also feel sexist, especially the comments about ‘albatross of a wife’ and ‘relationship with mother’. Leave out the picture of the white man, and those comments are sexist, they are playing on high currency gender stereotypes in order to seem to be sarcastic.
All in all, ABL was right to be offended by the comment, but people who were offended by the picture were also in the right.
JohnR
I don’t much care about the hoo-ha one way or the other, but reading your post, one thought kept nagging at me: are you sure this internet thing is really for you? You do realize that there are always going to be people here who annoy you, right? Sometimes even on purpose(!) We’re people; ie we’re stupid, selfish pricks and self-righteous prigs, and frequently at the very same time. Well, you do what you want, but don’t blame the assholes for what you do; you’re a big girl and can make your own choices. You don’t need to justify to anybody (except maybe the host) for what you do, is my thought.
motorik
Is it racist to point out that ABL is a shitty blogger?
You people let me know.
It is not, but don’t do it on my fucking thread. One more and you’re gone. Go bitch about me on the Open Thread. Thank you. -ABL
Corner Stone
@Keith G: Beauty of a day, eh amigo?
Stillwater
@Lisa: I get exhausted talking to racist people.
I do too. What’s your solution?
Omnes Omnibus
@Lisa: I am probably wading in where I shouldn’t, but I think there is a difference between an out and out racist and someone who carries a, perhaps unconscious, racist view and would be shocked and appalled to discover that fact. The first would never be worth engaging; the second might. I would not say, however, that it is your responsibility to do anything of the kind.
Observer
@Stillwater:
There’s no confusion. There’s only dignity and knowing when someone’s trying to take that away. Comments should be closed in those circumstances.
But my beef is with you specifically. White people expect to be able to say anything in any manner to blacks without eliciting any reaction; blacks are supposed to just take it. And when ABL wants to close a comment thread then, tough sh*t, don’t come back two days later calling her names and making it about her. the blog if free, the setup allows for her to do that, and just shut your yap about it.
Whites always want to tell blacks what to do even when they have no business doing so. And if this case, you and all the other complainers have no standing.
So just shut it.
Dongo
Heavens to betsy! Well, if you read something that offended you, then of course the only thing to do is throw a fit and end the thread.
Keith G
When confronted with a threat/order from an authority or an upper status person:
I usually inquire:
Or?
Or you can go the way of Beese and Tim. -ABL
Corner Stone
@Observer:
What fucking bizarro world do you live in? Or should I ask what bizarro date stamped world do you live in?
taylormattd
Just chiming in ABL to make sure you know there are plenty of people here who agree with every word you are saying on this topic.
And what a wonderful comment you reposted. This part should be repeated far and wide to those who have suddenly adopted Rush Limbaugh’s reverse racism routine:
poco
@Corner Stone: Did you just read this thread?
Keith G
@Corner Stone: My goodness it is – a remarkable day for mid May in Houston.
Last warning. Take it to the Open Thread, please. -ABL
tomvox1
For some reason, I just can’t help thinking of this exchange from Tropic Thunder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAlVKgl_zCQ
Shinobi
@Dustin: “You don’t get to ignore that as something that can be “whitesplained” away.
And just for the record, do you really not see how that term is offensive all on it’s own? Can you imagine the shitstorm that would result if I, as a pasty white irishman, were to say “I note, with no small amount of irony, that yet again I’ll have to dumb this down so you people can understand”? I can, and it ain’t pretty.”
Interestingly enough Dustin, “Whitesplained” was derived after someone else derived the term “mainsplained.” Funnily enough both terms were derived as a result of repeated experiences on the part of women, and poc having things “Dumbed down so we can understand.”
And it IS offensive, because there is an assumption on the part of the white person or the man that they have some unique point of view that us non white non men could not possibly understand. Funnily enough all we EVER actually hear is the White Male point of view.
Though this was actually a relatively positive use of Whitesplaination, so I don’t know why you are complaining.
I Love ABLs posts, and I think this is one of the best responses to racism I have ever read.
Dustin
@Corner Stone: You know who else expected to just “take it”? White people being accused of racism.
Bob Loblaw
@Omnes Omnibus:
That is a very Privileged thing to say.
@Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity:
Every planet needs a retributive genocide every now and then, I think. It’s only fair. So just remember that there are more of Us than there are of You, white devil. And We are growing in numbers every day.
…Sleep tight.
dcmartin
@motorik: If she’s a “shitty blogger”, why the fuck are you here reading her?
Seems your a dumbass for continuing to read, and comment on someone you feel is not worth your time.
Just one of “We people”, letting you know….she’s a good blogger, you’re – what, exactly??????
Observer
@Corner Stone:
You’re being an ass. I could open the floor to any forum where more than a dozen blacks are in the same place and I’m sure they’ll have a hundred thousand stories of the bullsh*t they’d have to bite their tongue on.
And if I need to explain more than that then you are obtuse.
Dustin
@Shinobi: It was a relatively benign use of the term. My problem with it, just like “mansplaining”, is the same problem I have with “alternative” medicine proponents. There is only one reality. It can be measured through empirical observation and a consensus can be achieved by all parties involved.
The idea that something needs to be explained in some special way to some specific audience is, or at least should be, offensive to the group in question.
So when someone tells me I need to have something “mansplained” or “whitesplained” in order to understand something I take it as a direct insult. Tell me how you perceive the subject, your view. If I can’t empathize with it that’s my damn problem and my failing. There’s no difference between “whitesplaining” and “you people”, only who’s the subject of condescension.
water balloon
The description of the guy in that picture was no worse than wonkette’s descriptions of people at Glenn Beck’s “slob picnic.” It just wasn’t as funny.
As a Northern white male though, I admit to my prejudice against Southern rednecks.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@Dustin:
Well, as I’ve already stated, I see the text-enhanced photo of the dude as a satire on a certain mindset. Not on an entire race of people, but a subset of that race. A subset that deserves every last bit of scorn that gets sent their way.
I truly wonder if a lot fewer folks would see it as a form of racism if, say, Cole had posted it. Or if anyone would have seen it that way at all. “Yeah, ha-ha, those racists sure are dumb!” But ABL posts it, and some here see it as a clumsy swipe at whites, or blue-collar whites, or whatnot, in general.
Read what ABL posted in accompaniment to the picture. Where is there even a hint of her “calling out whitey.” Where? She laments dumbass mindsets, but nowhere is there a hint of, “Yeah, ha-ha, those whites sure are dumb!”
Dunno where I go from here with this. But I just don’t understand where there’s a “slight” against white people in that.
irmaladuce
Observer, don’t listen to Corner Stone. He doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about. ‘Splaining is when a person in a position of relative privilege speaks as an authority on issues that affect a minority. So, whitesplaining is when a white person explains how racism works, mansplaining when a man does the same about feminism. ABL’s point was that for racist assholes, a black woman’s perspective on racism is invalid, while a white guy making the same points will be embraced.
Also, google, how the fuck does that work?
Keith G
@Observer:
White people = You people?
Dustin
@Observer: And I, as an open atheist, can do the same thing with any group of atheists in my conservative Christian neck of the country. What’s your fucking point? That we live in a prejudice-filled society? If so get off your high horse, because prejudice is a two-way street.
Lysana
@novum:
No, they weren’t. It was derailing for them to do so. And your claims the “albatross of a wife” remark was sexist holds no water anyway. It was deliberately playing up the stereotypical beliefs of that kind of white person. May as well call Dave Chappelle a racist for “I’m Rick James, bitch!”
Observer
@Keith G:
No. White people = Some people.
ABL
you have quite obviously missed the point.
was i wrong to post the photo? i wanted to have that discussion. in fact, if you’ll read the thread, you’ll see that i began to have that discussion before i got “you peopled”. and for the record, everyone, it was NOT the first comment by that commenter that was intentionally racist.
i find it strange that the hang up seems to be that i closed comments without giving the appropriate thought to why i have told you that i did so.
tell me i’m wrong about shit. THAT’S GREAT. i will argue with you until i’m blue in the face.
call me a brainless obot! that’s great! i can take all of the non-racist non-misogynistic insults you want to throw my way. if i call you an inflamed asshole, you have every right to call me a pus-filled genital wart.
BUT WHAT YOU DO NOT HAVE IS THE RIGHT TO TELL ME HOW TO FEEL ABOUT RACISM. FULL STOP.
to put it another way, you have the right to deem something offensive. you do NOT have the right to tell me how I should feel about a comment containing so many dogwhistles.
if you can’t see that difference, then dog help you.
(edited for sense)
Yutsano
@Omnes Omnibus: I sort of get the whole giving them enough rope thing. It also helps when you can point out something need not be overtly racist to be instead a privileged comment or action. Or what Jay Smooth said. h/t AL.
WaterGirl
@Phoebe: Yes, I completely meant “blue collar”. Sorry to confuse.
ABL
@Dongo: Good job, buddy! Did you feel any backdraft as the point of my post flew right over your head?
Lysana
@Dustin:
Actually, since whitesplaining is white people telling POC how it is for POC instead of believing the people living it, the use of “you people” is whitesplaining turned belligerent.
Dustin
+1
Observer
@Dustin: Atheists? Cry me a freaking river. Context, both historical and actual, is important. I’m not on an high horse; I’m precisely and exactly delineating what’s wrong with people such as yourself.
Comparing the lot of a few malcontent atheists to an entire race of people is just offensive. But then that’s because you’re offensive.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@novum:
How it is sexist to point out that those with a narrow mind regarding race are not unlikely to also have a narrow mind regarding gender?
Again, the pic doesn’t make fun of whites. It makes fun of bigoted, less-then-bright whites. I, as a white person, have no trouble admitting that this type of person exists. And I’m happy to have a laugh or “heh, indeedy” moment at their expense any time.
Keith G
Since you brought this up here, I assume I have the right to ask this qustion here:
What (after three years of being a regular commenter here without incident whatsoever) did I specifically do on this thread today to earn a first warning or that warning?
Arundel
I can’t believe anyone ever said you were a drama queen.
Phoebe
@Omnes Omnibus:
YES. Being an unwitting spy can sometimes lead to understanding the unfathomable.
This happened to me with the gayness issue. I don’t get why people care if gay people get married, right, I mean why do they CARE?
But yes I do know, because someone thought he could be candid with me because I’m straight, and said something he wouldn’t have if I were not, but it was how he really felt, which is that gay marriage is wrong “because children are more important than sex”, and… yeah, long story shorter:
Gay people, if you did not already know this, they think you are just pervs. They don’t get that you have all the same “love” set of emotions they do, whether it be for a mate, or kids, or a pet. They think you just want pervy sex, the grosser the better. I think this is because they think you’re really straight, and don’t understand that for YOU, heterosex (unless you’re bi) is what would be pervy and you would prefer not to have to do it, thank you very much. This is the alpha and omega I believe of most people’s non-bibley animus. This is why it’s “different” if you all get married; you just want a license to be pervs, not to blah blah blah, whatever holy love bonding thing marriage is supposed to be. And this perception is changing every second because of your increasing visibility as people who have all those same emotions and are not just jaded nihilists. Well, not any more than we are, anyway. Even old people can and do slowly slowly get it. It’s fascinating to watch, if sometimes sobering/depressing when you see the extent of their cluelessness. Especially when they’re otherwise smart.
Observer
@ABL: This is what happens when you educate a whole country with a book – a “classic” – with a certain perjorative word in it one thousand times. Certain people have a need to put you down and make you feel inferior; it’s built-in.
ABL
@JohnR:
Trust me, the (race-based and misogynistic) shit that I get on this blog that pisses me off is ON TOP OF the annoyance and digs that fly around. that’s the point. see my post at 274.
seems to me that folks would rather not confront some ugliness and therefore are determined to delude themselves that I AM THE PROBLEM.
I’m not.
Corner Stone
@Observer: All that’s probably true. And maybe my experience doesn’t translate out, and that’s cool.
But where I’m from absolutely nobody turns the other cheek. Not anyone of any race, creed or color.
One time in 9th grade I almost got my ass beat for accidentally stepping on the sneaker of another guy in the hall. The young gentleman followed me up the stairs, past the teacher and into the classroom to get in my face and tell me how he was going to bust me up if he saw me again.
And later, in professional life, if anyone said some stupid shit that had no business being said they would be invited to leave the jobsite and not return.
The places I’ve been have spent thousands of hours and millions of dollars driving that attitude out of their doors. If I (for example) told an insensitive/stupid anecdote I would be meeting with the North American attorney for HR in about 3 hours or less.
I’m absolutely sure other places have different params. Agreed.
But there has never been a time in my life where anyone just gritted their teeth and took an insult.
Lysana
@Arundel:
She’s faced this kind of bullshit ever since she got here. This is the peak of MONTHS of racist crap thrown at her here colored by years of racist crap for the crime of breathing while brown. And accusing her of being a drama queen is the derailing tactic known as picking on how she expresses her reactions.
Derailing For Dummies, people. It’s written at your reading level. Learn it, live it, respect it.
ABL
@Keith G: as i said, i’m keeping a tighter rein on my posts related to race.
(ETA: i’ve been trying to figure out a way to maintain control over these posts without simply posting and never returning to the discussion. i’m sorry if it seems draconian.)
Corner Stone
@Lysana: It’s garbage. Try formulating your own argument and then defending it.
Or, if you can’t do that, then continue citing this useless garbage.
Keith G
@Observer:
Notice how that worked y’all. Observer made a statement that concerned and mystified me. I asked for a clarification and she/he graciously replied. Name calling or threats were not involved.
Thank you, Observer.
ABL
@Lysana: thank you.
Anton Sirius
@Dustin:
I recently saw a really, really good documentary called BLACK POWER MIXTAPE, which is built around a collection of footage and interviews shot by Scandinavian journalists during the late ’60s and ’70s about the Black Power movement.
Probably the most powerful clip in the movie is an interview done with Angela Davis, while she was in prison waiting for her trial on bullshit murder charges which could have landed her on Death Row. The poor Swede talking to her asked her whether she condoned the violence of the Black Panthers or something like that. Davis goes OFF on him, and launches into a recollection about what it was like for her growing up in Birmingham under Bull Connor, about Connor going on the radio and “expressing concern” for the safety of that night’s lynching targets, about her family’s house shaking from explosions, about her mother having to help pick up and identify the body parts of kids Davis had played with just the week before…
Every time someone uses some variation of that “ABL is just throwing bombs at white people” metaphor in these threads, I think of that interview. And I cringe.
Nina
Keep digging, motorik et al. A nice, sanitized perspective on how you all keep digging reminded me of This is spinal tap:
“You put a greased, naked woman on all fours with a dog collar around her neck, and a leash and a man’s arm extended out up to here holding on to the leash and pushing a black glove in her face to sniff it.” …
“You know, if we were serious and we said, ‘Yes, she should be forced to smell the glove,’ then you’d have a point, but it’s all a joke.” …
“It is and it isn’t. She should be made to smell it, but…”
“But not, you know, over and over.”
Lysana
@Corner Stone:
Oooh, truth hurts so you turn to slagging it. Bra-VO.
Brachiator
@David Moyes:
Do we really need to trot out the obvious rejoinder of intentional fallacy? There is an odd belief among some folk that you can only brand something as racist when you know what is in the person’s heart.
But this kind of thing is not only often an exercise in futility, it ignores the impact of what has been said or done.
@taylormattd:
Hmmm. Disagree. Facts and circumstances and context can be just as important.
ABL
@Dustin: i think others have addressed “whitesplaining,” so i won’t do so.
if you will provide an example of me regularly throwing bombs at white people, i’d be happy to address it.
i don’t consider linking tim wise, or asking privileged people to consider their privilege as “throwing bombs.”
Corner Stone
@Lysana: Yes, yes, you’re right. Which one did I do? Number 3? Or maybe numbers 7, 9 and eleventy billion?
Observer
@Corner Stone:
I didn’t write about just “insults”. It’s more about the presumption of how the world is that underlies how people talk to you. Someone can talk to you and make it perfectly clear what they think without insulting you. I think the balloon juice generic for that is “strapping young bucks” but maybe that’s from Atrios.
On another level though, I have to disagree with your conclusions and anecdotes that you write about. When ESPN hired that Limbaugh idiot did any of the people whom you say don’t brook no insult call up ESPN and tell then to GTFOH? no. I mean, we all knew what was going to happen, just didn’t know the details. But collectively we all needed to shut up and take it. Now that’s a global example but still.
ABL
@Corner Stone: I don’t think it’s garbage. The tactics described are exactly the sort of tactics with which POCs and women and disabled folks and LGBTQ folk are confronted on a nearly basis.
When you’ve had discussions such as these over and over and over over a 30 year span, sometimes it’s nice to have a reference guide.
A better question would be, why do you think it’s garbage?
Lysana
@ABL:
I’ve seen my own BS echoed too often in DFD to not recommend it when I see others produce the same shit.
Linnaeus
It seems to me that one of the obstacles to having “this conversation” is that before we get to it, we’re still talking about the parameters of “this conversation”: who gets to speak (and who shouldn’t), what perspectives matter (and which ones matter less), what’s an appropriate mode of expression (and what isn’t), etc., etc. We get caught up in that, and then forget about what exactly “this conversation” is supposed to be about.
But maybe these are necessary issues to be hashed out. It just seems to be something that a lot of people can’t get past.
Keith G
@ABL: Thanks for the comeback. Still, if I know what boundry I crossed, I will be able to make better decisions next time.
If you @ the comment in question, that would be helpful to me and possibly others.
gwangung
I’m surprised…the ratio of substance and struggle to cluelessness is quite high.
Lysana
@Corner Stone:
I was actually noting it more specifically to Arundel, but if the guide fits, read it. I’m not going to hold your hand through your enlightenment. Not my job.
Yutsano
@ABL: I just wanna know what I gotta do to get you to comment on one of my postings. I think it’s awesome you can do that.
And on-topic: this blog has been scaring me lately. And it’s not just overt or covert racism. It’s the pushing of the privilege bubble. And I absolutely LOVED how some dickhead tried to define it for me then utterly failed to do so.
@gwangung:
I’m not so much surprised as disappointed. I really thought we had come further than we have. I also realize there could be privilege in that perspective.
I’m a fighter. I realized that the folks who are inclined to think I’m some shrinking violet in the benevolent glow of John’s shining light would think so no matter how I handled the increasing hostilities and derailing of my posts. E.g., John DM’d me on the twitterz to tell me he had banned Beese. People here, of course, think that I am somehow blackmailing him or whatever. It’s silliness, but I don’t want to let the silliness interfere with talking to people who actually want to talk to rather than taunt me. :) -ABL
Corner Stone
@Observer:
How do you know that?
novum
@Lysana
Perhaps in that thread it was derailing so i’ll be happy to change my statement to, in general, people had a right to be offended by that picture.
I miss your point about how that comment is not playing into sexist constructions of women, and it seems an unfair comparison to bring up Dave C. Certainly it wouldn’t make sense to imply that “I’m Rick James B” is a racist joke, but it would make sense to say its a sexist joke.
I feel just as strongly about the mother comment; why not say the relationship with his father? and what is the stereotypical belief that the man in the picture is supposed to have about women, that the caption is trying to satirize? Both ‘jokes’ make no sense without the ‘Big Other’, in this case general trans-group cultural sexists images and representations.
Kathy in St. Louis
There is absolutely no reason that black folks, or any other minority group, should be told to “just ignore” the nasty remarks that are hurled at them. I watched the newreels of the first black students who integrated the public schools in Little Rock. They were told to “just ignore” the horrible attacks by the crowds trying to block their entrance into the public school. That’s what the youth who sat at the first Woolworth counter trying to integrate restaurants in the south were told. This is 50 years later, this should be a non-issue by now. Ignoring the nasty rhetoric didn’t make it go away over the past 50 years. Ignoring these guys just makes them think that good people agree with them or are too weak to speak up. Neither is a good idea with these bullies. However the commenter meant his remark, he was dead wrong.
WaterGirl
@dcmartin:
I will respond, in case your question was not rhetorical, since I am one of the people who commented here (#135) that i was uncomfortable with the picture.
I cringed when I saw the picture, but I didn’t feel the need to comment because by the time I got to comment #11, someone else had already expressed a similar concern.
i figured someone else had it covered, so I bailed out of the thread.
I rarely read ABL’s posts, but I don’t live in a cave, so I generally aware of the tension and drama related to ABL’s posts. But I didn’t relate to a single thing you suggested in your comment.
Edited to make the comment shorter.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
@Yutsano:
Sounds like what a lot of us who vote Dem went through during the ’08 Dem primaries.
Geraldine Ferraro was not a lone nut. Alas.
David Moyes
@Brachiator: I can’t imagine why you’d drag out the intentional fallacy since what I said had nothing to do with literary theory. I think I specifically said that we should not underemphasize the actual damage done. But I won’t appeal to my authority as author of comment, as that would be an instance of the intentional fallacy.
Corner Stone
@ABL: They are tactics used by people of all colors and pastiness.
I’ve had people try them on me for three damned decades too, in order to gain advantage or primacy.
Mainly because you can shoe horn any debate into one of them if you feel like doing so.
And I think it’s intellectually lazy to use shorthand like this.
Make the argument, don’t tell me DFD # 7 sums it all up.
And it’s odd the commenters I see who keep citing it. It reminds me of individuals who quoted Politifact like the Bible itself until it just outed itself.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@David Moyes:
From illdoctrine.com: How To Tell People They Sound Racist
Cassidy
Awwww….I see Corner Stone was out and about being his usual shit bag self. Personally, a plane ticket would be a fair price to humiliate you in front of your kids. Nothing says “Daddy, why were you such a douche” than broken orbital bones.
Please keep the name-calling out of this post. I’m sure Corner Stone would (and should) be happy to call you an asshole in return on the Open Thread. So take it over there. Thank you. -ABL
Lysana
@novum:
When lampooning the bigotry of a group of people, highlighting the intersectionality of their bigotries is fair game is what I really meant. It isn’t sexist to point out that racists are often also sexist, in short. And you’re also accusing a woman of sexism, which is its own degree of inappropriate.
gwangung
@Yutsano: I’ve had long experience that some of the most virulent and corrosive racism (for both target and giver) has been the unconscious attitudes that automatically devalue the values and attitudes of POCs (because that devaluation goes on to experiences and observations). That there are people are even trying, even while exhibiting cluelessness is still heartening.
ABL
@Lysana: yep. i did the same thing to you with respect to fatphobia. i think we should high five for being able to admit we’re wrong. although i think it is easier for us, likely because we are “others” in other respects.
Corey
@Cassidy:
How is this even remotely appropriate?
NobodySpecial
The only two things I dislike about the closing comments tack is, one, it smacks of almost every single conservative blog since Powerline. Wise person pontificates from hill, everybody else talk off stage. Two, it smacks of running away from the argument, as ABL herself noted.
Reminds me of the story about Ghandi and the woman who came to him to get her kid to stop eating sugar.
Lysana
@Corner Stone:
Seriously, when dealing with intellectually lazy people such as those who use derailing tactics, shorthand is what we have left sometimes. It’s the SAME shit over and over and over and over and over again. You’re bitching about using baking mix for a cake instead of growing your own wheat first.
Observer
@Corner Stone: You mean when you first heard, back in the day, that ESPN hired Limbaugh as a color commentator you *didn’t* think he was going to either insult someone’s acommplishments as being the product of reverse racism or affirmative action? Really? White people do that all the time.
The only question was how long was it going to take. C’mon, you joking with me right? LOL and all that?
Stillwater
@Observer: But my beef is with you specifically. White people expect to be able to say anything in any manner to blacks without eliciting any reaction
There was no argument addressing any of the claims I’ve made in this thread in that response. None whatsoever. Just assertions about how white people (me in particular) don’t get it. But I will say this: 1) my criticisms of ABL’s posting/commenting strategy is that it’s counterproductive (maybe you can’t see that, or just don’t want to), and 2) if you narrow the field of your allies to exclude white people because of their color, then you’ve eliminated principle from being part of the discussion.
I had a longer response here that I’ll shorten. Your argument, such as it is, appears to be that I’m expressing a form of racist privilege by criticizing ABL for closing the comments, yet you take it as a datum that ABL is beyond white criticism for closing the comments not because she was the poster, or because comments became too personal, but because she’s black (“White people expect to be able to say anything in any manner to blacks without eliciting any reaction”). That’s an interesting reversal about excesses of privilege.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
Lysana
@ABL:
Oh, it’s supposed to be easier, but don’t get me started about the ones who forget… ;)
Brian S
Forgive me if someone else has noted this already–300+ comments is a bit much to wade through–but I wonder how much of this pushback against ABL would be happening if the writer was, say, Ta-Nehisi Coates instead. This shit gets slapped down right quick over at his place, and not just by him–by the posters there as well. And I’m not saying that posters here aren’t doing some slapping down–in the 20 or so posts I’ve read, I’ve seen some of it–but few people seem to be shamed by the calling out they’re rightfully getting. Race isn’t the only thing at play in this dispute, it seems to me.
Yutsano
@gwangung: Clueless is teachable. Sometimes it’s getting the majority person to clueless that can be the aggravating part. Clueless leads to curiosity (which is the rather uncomfortable stage for the POC since it sometimes causes discomfort on both sides). Then we get to earnestness (which is about where I am) and finally figuring it out. But yeah, it’s not easy, it’s sure as shit ain’t comfortable, and it can sometimes lead to losing longtime friendships.
@Brian S: He’s breaking the code. Send in SEAL team 6 immediately! :)
Omnes Omnibus
@Observer: Of course people with any sense knew Limbaugh was going to do or say something appalling.
Corner Stone
@Observer: I remember thinking, “What? Why?”
But my question was, “How do you know what people across the nation did?”
Because I don’t have a cite but I feel like IIRC there was quite a bit of an outcry against ABC/ESPN.
Corner Stone
@Cassidy: Oh Internet Tough Guy, does your sense of affrontedness know no bounds?
WaterGirl
@David Moyes: Thanks for that. You should comment more often.
Yutsano
@Corner Stone: I recall there being quite the kerfluffle over hiring Fat Bastard as well. Although I’m honestly too lazy to do teh Google right now to back up your assertion. I remember that quite clearly.
Corey
Hey ABL, I see you’re actively moderating the thread now. Surely we can agree that comment 315 crosses all kinds of boundaries, right?
Keith G
@Cassidy:
Congrats…you get to threaten violence without sanction, and I still do not know why I got a warning.
Hmmmmmmmm.
David Moyes
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): I agree with that 100%. That is precisely the sentiment that was behind my comment. Point out to me when I’ve done something shitty and I’ll cop to it; call me a shit and I’ll get defensive. My point was: you don’t need to be a racist to do racist things, which is logically equivalent to saying not all racist things are done by racists.
Cassidy
Nothing internet tough guy about it. I would enjoy it. It wouldn’t take long. Would I be willing to pay the associated travel costs for the 30 seconds of enjoyment? Absolutely. Will it happen? No. Your a cowardly piece of shit who’ll never put your money where your mouth is.
Observer
@Corner Stone: The proof is in the pudding, as they say. They hired him with his history of race baiting.
Now there’s were always a few columnists saying it was a dumb move but that was about it. No reasonable black person expected ESPN to back down beforehand as there’s no point with some people. People had to wait until Limbaugh said something idiotic.
And that’s pretty well what I mean. Basically blacks eat that sh*t sandwich until ESPN couldn’t polish the turd anymore and white people in power in the media got upset. Then they did something. That’s how the system works. Didn’t you ever watch Mississippi Burning?
Stillwater
@Yutsano: My memory is the same. Unlike last time …
Keith G
@Corner Stone: I am thinking that it is possible that young Cass has never been to Texas.
Cassidy
@Keith G: Was stationed there for a bit. Texan’s definitely don’t scare me. lol
Corner Stone
@Cassidy: It’s true. The last time someone called me brave was when I climbed up the oak tree to rescue Lil Molly’s kitty cat.
She was most appreciative as I recall. I think she served me and her dollies tea that very same afternoon.
Corner Stone
@Observer: ABC also produced Path to 9/11 IIRC.
Not sure where you’re going here.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@Stillwater:
If you study, say, MLK’s work, or Thorgood Marshall as he spoke in front of the court, you see that they take the critical human rights situation amongst American Negroes of that era, and translated the situation into words that could, indeed, transcend the bigotry of that era. There are people today — Obama amongst them — that continue to represent in exactly the way you say.
But to demand, as you have, that ABL or anyone involved in this struggle act exactly as you say is nothing but foolishness. MLK himself never stooped to tell Negros how they should “feel”, and asked for the expressions of his supporters, and his supporters only, to be non-violent and organized, not “nice and positive”.
Different forms of expressing righteous angry about bigotry is not bad, not a detriment to race relations — but is, in face, key.
And what has ABL said that implied that white people can’t be allies?
Bob Loblaw
I think Cassidy just became my new favorite poster. Terrific work.
Also, we’re not allowed to make fun of fat people either these days? Fucking fatphobia, man. So many rules. It’s getting hard out there for a Tool of the Oppressive Patriarchal Society That Treats the Sexuality and Bodily Integrity of Women as a Purchasable Commodity and Should Therefore in No Way Be Culturally Glorified in Any Way.
Thank you. I’ve been wanting to do this for months. See ya later, jerk. -ABL
Mark S.
Matt. 25: 41-43
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was a blog commenter and you did not let me comment, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
ABL
@NobodySpecial: I have been struggling with finding a way to monitor these “high intensity” threads. I’ve settled on what I’m doing today. Closed comments is not going to become a practice of mine. If I plan to post something that I think will generate assholery, I will make sure I have time to moderate the post. :)
ABL
@Stillwater: Will you get over the comment closing already? I’ve explained why I did it. I’ve explained how I plan to handle these threads in the future. You’re just whinging to whinge, at this point and you’re being ridiculous.
motorik
“Derailing” = expressing disagreement with a black person.
Awesome!
No, derailing means NOT STAYING ON TOPIC. I get it. You think I’m a shitty blogger. Is there anything else you have to say that is relevant, or do you just want to continue being a dickhead? What the hell is wrong with you? Knock it the fuck off.-ABL
Fred
All this over my comment? And you are still not sure what I meant by it???
Let me put it this way then. Fox pulls a nontroversy out of their ass and you people repeat the nontroversy over and over about how it’s such a nontroversy and this keeps going on and on and pretty soon it really is a controversy because it must be. Because everyone is talking about it.
When you do this Fox essentially owns you. They win. This keeps happening over and over again. Week after week you people get sucked in. No ‘you people’ is NOT you black people. It’s just people who get sucked into these manufactured controversies.
With Obama a lot of the manufactured controveries are race baiting. That is what works best with the mouth breathers on the right and what gets people the most worked up on the left.
And oh btw. Do you think the timing of this, by Rove, right at the time everyone is starting to bask in the glow of the bit Bin Laden victory is some coincidence? The goal is to make EVERYONE forget about that as quickly as possible!
Observer
@Stillwater: The issue is that she closed the comments because someone was stealing her dignity and you’re complaining about that. It’s not because she’s black.
There’s insults, it’s the Internet after all, and then there’s people who try and take your dignity away. Someone with a blog (or a FPer) doesn’t have to deal with that on their own blog or post. When a blogger shuts it down because of that it’s not for you to argue with that blogger. Someone’s dignity isn’t open for debate.
The racial aspect is that I am *also* saying “and white people in general do that all the time and don’t really recognize that blacks should be afforded dignity” and specifically am saying that your complaints about ABL fall into that category.
But note, that is an *is ALSO saying* not an *is ONLY saying*. The main thing is there’s a baseline of dignity, blacks (and FTR everyone else) should be able to go out in the world with a baseline expectation. All “internet abuse” isn’t of the same class and category; most of the junior level vitriol is just that, sometimes things are different. This was different, it’s not for you to tell ABL it isn’t and start a “process” complaint. Process complaints are always masks for something else.
BlizzardOfOz
@60th Street:
Hey look, you discovered context. It’s a bit different when someone says “you people” on a “liberal” (as if any O-bot was ever liberal) blog.
Keith G
@Cassidy:
I assume than that you are implying military service.
Color me confused. Most of the modern military that I know do not feel the need to offer threats of beatings because of the commentary on a blog.
Dennis SGMM
I’ve only been around here for a few years but, this is the first instance I can recall of a front pager closing comments because they didn’t like what was being written. Maybe one of the old timers here can correct me if I’m wrong about this.
MattMinus
@Cassidy:
WoW! This thread is devolving into YouTube comments territory.
Stillwater
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill: ABL said none of those things. And I certainly agree that there are different approaches to discussing/advocating for race issues (ABL’s being one of them). The comment about white’s as allies was directed at Observer, not at ABL.
ABL
@Fred: certainly there was a better way to say that than the way you did, then.
@Keith G: Do you realize how much time it takes for me to monitor these posts? I literally spent two full days monitoring the “is it cool to call House Dems niggers” post. So cut me a little slack, why don’t you.
I’m trying to keep this thread ON TOPIC. Just keep it on topic. I even created a new thread for all the malcontents to complain about how much I suck.
Fred
@Corner Stone: Obvious spoof? Do tell.
KSinMA
@Duncan Dönitz (formerly Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.):
Yes. This.
Keith G
@Fred:
Please, for the love of all that is holy, please specify what “you people” means.
Are you refering to all of us in Texas, for example?
Cassidy
@Keith G: Service members are people too. Personally, I’ve never claimed to be MLK or Jesus. I’m not into the turn the other cheek. And some people just deserve a good beating. Usually, I reserve it for racists and whatnot, but I’m open-minded.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@David Moyes:
Well, the thing was that Fred, when called on it, did not cop to it, then he got people defending him. Revisit that thread and read Fred’s response to Yutsano when Yutsano called him on it. Not only did he fail to see the point, he attacked. He was a ginormous asshole about it. And now he’s right here again, and instead of saying something like, “Yeah, I see how you could have gotten the idea that it was racist,” he tries to throw it back in our faces.
Keith G
@ABL: I know.
Edit: I will never suck up to you the way some here do to FPers, but I will, without reservation, support your right to be you.
And at times, I will be as ass. Oh well.
IM
@Fred:
Forgetting the dead of OBL? Don’t think so.
General Stuck
@ABL:
It will be no use ABL, your detractors letting go of the comment closing of one thread, even if you never close another.
About a year ago, though not a front pager, was engaged in about non stop flame wars with a number of folks on this blog, including the blog owner, until one day I just said fuck it and had my internet disconnected on an impulse, and stayed gone I think for about 3 weeks.
As far as my own personal trolls go, it happened yesterday, that I ran away, with no thought of the fact when I came back, and resumed cleaning their clocks about every day. It is and has been learning process for me on this blog. Now I pick and choose the fights some better, and comment on a lot fewer threads, and ones I have a fair interest in.
IOW’s, you can check out but never leave, and idiots will be idiots no matter what. Now watch one or more of the idiots jump right on this opportunity to take this thread on a time trip to the past.
I fully approve of some kind of rules and rule enforcement, and have for a long time. Having been convinced that total freedom to say anything in a blog comment section, is an ultimate prison of that comment section. Just use the club wisely and maybe sparingly, but take no prisoners if they don’t surrender.
ABL
@Dennis SGMM: who cares? it happened. move on.
Observer
@Corner Stone:
ABC didn’t produce Path to 9/11. They produced “That Piece of Crap, Path to 9/11”.
Well actually, that’s the point I guess. The day I knew ABC was controlled by a bunch of Republicans was the day ESPN said they were going to hire Rush.
Peggy
Hi ABL
I think the mix is 50-50 aware vs unaware racists.
Being called a racist is a pretty strong insult of a white person today, so being an unaware, self-confident, patronizing racist is a far more comfortable position.
It’s the same old sludge in a much prettier package.
Janus Daniels
“… if you just ignored their nonsense and let them wallow in their own filth they wouldn’t get anywhere and they would stop…”
This does not work when “they” gain power by wallowing.
And they do.
I don’t know what works, but operation ignore failed with Reagan.
aimai
@Corner Stone:
That’s an incredibly stupid thing to say. You have no idea how many people all around you, every day, are gritting their teeth and taking insults, stupidities, and even violence without being able to fight back. I have some serious news for you: women and POC and people of alternate sexual orientations take a whole lot of shit, every day, that they don’t get to push back on. I don’t care who stepped on your toe when you were a teenager. There are literally millions of other people out there who have had a totally different experience from yours and who continue to have that experience even if you feel oppressed by the existence of a hypothetical HR program that you think would punish you for shit that *happens every day, unpunished, in other organizations* to people without power.
What the fuck? Do you not even read the newspaper? Do you not know that women and POC and everybody else have been routinely suing their large corporations for hostile work environments and unfair payment and etc…?
aimai
ABL
@Cassidy: @motorik:
@MattMinus: I’ve created an Open Thread for you. Please go there.
Anton Sirius
@Cassidy:
Wait. You’re not willing to fly somewhere to beat someone up, but they’re the ones who won’t put their money where their mouth is?
You’re not big on the whole internal consistency thing, are you?
Fred
@ABL: I probably spent 10 seconds thinking about it and another 30 seconds typing it.
It’s much ado about NOTHING! Lighten up!
ABL
@Keith G: thank you. at times i’ll be a hamwallet, but i like to think i am open to constructive criticism!
Cassidy
@ABL: Sorry. Just answering the question.
hildebrand
@Dennis SGMM: My, what a timely comment. Honestly.
Dennis SGMM
@ABL:
I care because I thought that blogging, or commenting, fell under the rubric of heat/kitchen. Congratulations for breaking new ground at Balloon Juice.
Allan
Outrage over being unable to comment on a blog post without going to a different blog to do so is definitionally a White People’s Problem.
ABL
that’s likely your problem, then, isn’t it? and considering that you know now that the comment pissed me off, telling me to “lighten up” isn’t going to make me want to be your bestie.
but i’m sure you know that, dear.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@ABL:
With all due respect, fuck that shit, ABL. Dude came in to concern troll in the first place- OH NOES! THE ONLY WAY TO FIGHT THE RIGHT IS IGNORE THEM! ZOMG YOU PEOPLE!
Fuck THAT shit! The reason we’ve lost so much power- black, white, red, brown, yellow, plaid- is precisely because we failed to remain vigilant. Don’t pay no attention to that crazy Jerry Falwell, he’s just trying to get a reaction. Reagan’s giving it to unions? Bah, they’re overpaid anyway. FUCK THAT SHIT!
Take your Broderisms elsewhere, Fred.
Dennis SGMM
@hildebrand:
Oooo, ya’ got me, honestly.
ABL
@Dennis SGMM: well, when you’ve been blogging amongst “snarling jackals” for six months, and been attacked repeatedly for your identity, why don’t we sit down and have a chat about how you were so unreasonably oppressed by my closing comments, mkay?
Odie Hugh Manatee
Far too many people here think that they have some right to comment, as if what they have to say is so important that it is an absolute outrage to them if they are ‘silenced’ by the closing of commentary on a particular subject. As if the have ‘the truth’ and that nobody has the right to deny them the ‘right’ to state it so everyone else can bask in the brilliance of their comment.
Get the fuck over yourself already. IMO, these same idiots are usually the ones that I read and think what a fucking waste of time and space. ABL, John or anyone else here can do whatever the fuck they want and if you don’t like it then too fucking bad. Boo-fucking-hoo if you feel you were denied your ‘right’ to comment on something.
ABL was very offended by what someone said, closed commentary and that is her right, IMO. John gave her that ability and like anything else someone may have on hand to deal with whatever, she has it for a reason. If she had left it at that then maybe, just maybe, you whiners would have something to bitch about, but even then I would have to wonder if you have a real life or just live to breathe the freedom of the internets.
But she didn’t leave it at that. After mulling it over, ABL came back and explained why she closed comments in that thread. She didn’t have to but she did and still you vapid motherfuckers come in and bitch about the comments having been closed. Some of you assholes are just too full of yourself. It’s as if you think that the internet was made just for you and your imagined brilliant and insightful commentary.
It’s not. Get the fuck over yourself. You are a disembodied ‘voice’ among millions of other disembodied voices online, no more or less important than any other voice out there. I couldn’t care less if comments are closed no matter where I go on the internet but that may be because I don’t see myself as having the right to post anywhere about anything I want to.
That and I happen to have a real life, which some of you could stand to get for yourselves.
I happen to enjoy reading ABL and the other FPer’s here and that’s good enough for me. I have disagreed with some of the things that they have written but I have never felt that I had to rebut every single thing that I disagreed with, nor have I done so.
That’s all I have to say about this fucking tempest in a teapot stirred up by you fucking self-important whiners.
Cassidy
@ABL: I’ve never thought you were a shitty blogger. I’ve always enjoyed your posts.
Mark S.
And people, it’s not like Cole has never deleted a thread.
Gary Boatwright
Excuse me for complaining, but somebody has to point out that there are a whole lot of really stupid white people in the world. I don’t know if America has the largest concentration of stupid white people in the world, but I can personally testify that Orange County, California is chock full of retarded white people who God blessed with way more than their fair share of stupid.
I can’t say that God played favorites when She passed out stupid, but She very clearly gave white folks a disproportionate share of stuck on stupid. If anyone requires proof, just look at the ratings that Limbaugh and Beck get and how goofy Tea Party white people dress. Then ask yourself why anybody in the media takes these people seriously.
I know, I know, there are some white people who can jump and dance, but any objective person has to admit that as an ethnic group white folks got short changed on rhythm and vertical jumping skills.
Seriously people (I do not mean you people), if you can’t laugh at both yourself and your homies, you need to either slit your throat with Occam’s Razor or smoke some herb and chill out.
Stillwater
@Observer: The issue is that she closed the comments because someone was stealing her dignity and you’re complaining about that.
Re: my complaining about that: well, if you think that you’re just another person who is wrong on the internet. And the commenter may have been trying to steal her dignity, but she certainly aided and abetted that theft when she shut comments down because of what he said instead of simply calling him out.
hildebrand
@Dennis SGMM:
Meta-whining and still missing the point. Now, that is a solid day’s effort.
Instead of attempting to understand why said thread was closed you are more concerned that it happened and that this was some kind of radical innovation in the hallowed normative practice of this blog. Do you not see the problem of such process oriented wankery? Are you trying to get a job as a pundit?
Dennis SGMM
@ABL:
Did I at any point state that I was feeling oppressed? You knew what this place was like when you started posting here. If the atmosphere is too unsympathetic for you then you have other options. Mkay?
motorik
@Fred: How dare you offer imperfect verbiage in a comment to a blog.
Don’t you know that doing so in a comment to a blog post by a POC runs counter to standard anti-derailment theory? Your imposition of malformed word-mapping on the discourse of power is a tool of privileged oppression.
But you didn’t know this, clearly. And this ignorance can only be sourced to your privileged position as the purveyor of discursive norms, your continual fetishizing of whiteness (or non-blackness, really) and your unconscious reification of our objectifying and dehumanizing culture. You should be ashamed.
In the future, please presubmit all similar commentary to the just-established forty-two member Balloon Juice multidisciplinary, multiethnic Board of Discursive Approval for their review prior to public release.
Corner Stone
@aimai: Hey, while you’re climbing off your fucking high horse why don’t you look around for a little context, meh?
Observer
@Stillwater:
Again, it’s not for you to decide how someone should react to that. The sheer arrogance of you deciding that her reaction is open to debate is breathtaking.
And specifically, and again, that’s the racial aspect to it that I specifically am objecting to with you. Whites do this *all* the time to blacks. But that’s a sidebar.
General Stuck
@Fred:
It’s the old non engagement theory with right wing bullshit that worked so well for dems in the past, not. Water off a donkeys back, rise above it, people out there will get the wingnuts are full of shit.
The wingers predictably made race baiting one of their prime weapons to use against Obama. If there is one thing liberals and dems must learn, and have to some degree since 2006, is to not let right wing bullshit become urban myth by letting it slide on by. We have been famous for that, and it has been the most successful GOP tactic since Reagan, and his turning the term “liberal” into a boogyman term, to where hardly any liberal dare say that word in mixed company or on teevee, instead hiding behind, and misusing a small p verbish term of progressive.
We fight them now, we fight them smartly, but we fight them always. And race should be the standard liberal cause to take up the sword of rebuttal, making it clear every day that racism is racism. If the public chooses to ignore it, or they just don’t care, it will not have been for lack of the center left fighting the good fight. And to hell with Fox, they can do what they have to do, and we will do what we have to do. I won’t cede them a single faux talking point .
Stillwater
@ABL: Christ allfucking mighty! I was answering a comment about the comment closing! Is responding to the contents of comments now out of bounds as well!
General Stuck
@Mark S.:
Ha! nice catch. I thought there was at least one, but couldn’t quite be sure.
motorik
@Stillwater: Responding to comments in a linear way reifies the discourse of oppression blah blah blah
Stillwater
@Observer:
Anything jump out at you about these two sentences? Anything at all?
Anton Sirius
@Dennis SGMM:
Sigh. She’s availed herself of some of those other options. I’m sure she’s quite distraught that they didn’t meet with your approval.
Observer
@Stillwater:
Am I supposed to go “but, but, but I don’t know if *you’re* white yourself” Stillwater? It’s two separate lines of thinking. Related but separate. Try to figure that out, please.
Listen that’s all for tonight, non-internet interactions need to be made and all that.
ErikdaRed
Without having read thru the comments, I hope I’m one of many who say the following:
I don’t give a shit and you’re fine with me, ABL.
Stillwater
@motorik: the discourse of oppression
Heh. Honest discourse is like water to the seeds of oppression.
Bobby Thomson
@Fred:
Some true (unlike raiiiiiiiin on your wedding day) irony here, because I have no idea what the hell the “this” is that was supposed to make me forget about bin Laden.
ETA: By the way, regardless of whether you had racist intent or not, you behaved like a total douche in obstinately refusing to clear the matter up.
Stillwater
@Observer: Try to figure that out, please.
Dude, I have figured it out. It doesn’t reflect very well on you.
ABL
@Dennis SGMM: i’ll be sure to keep that in mind. Why don’t you head to the Open Thread and tell the class all about how I’m DOIN IT RONG.
catperson
@Dustin:
I think this is the essence of white privilege distilled. (And I’m not trying to be pejorative; I really appreciate that you’re willing to engage.)
There are things like gravity that are immutable, but how people interact with culture is a subjective experience. And this gets back to the empathy issue–I think it’s difficult to detach oneself from one’s individual experience and see the things one takes for granted that other people don’t have. See examples here.
My point is that people of color, gays, women, any out group *do* live in a different reality than whites, even the poorest of whites. And that’s one of the biggest barriers to economic equality, IMO. We’re too busy turning on each other to fight for fairness for all.
Bobby Thomson
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
This. Absolute best case is Fred behaved like an enormous douche.
Nate Dawg
Wow.
1) I’m actually surprised at how tame the offending comment seems to me, but I’m white, so perhaps not attuned to these things. However, the “You all” comment, seems to point towards an interpretation that the commenter meant ‘liberals’ considering the majority of people reading the comment are presumably liberals and not presumably black. The “you people” comment cuts the other way though. In such a situation, isn’t a charitable reading best?
2) Can’t believe everyone got so upset cause comments are closed. Big deal. Who cares. Go home and have a glass of wine.
3) I’m white and didn’t find that picture of the redneck offensive. Then again, I find little offensive and really don’t understand the emotion, but in anycase, it seems some of the outrage about that photo might be a little feigned. Just a little?
4) ABL seems able to handle her own when she needs to call someone out about a subtly racist comment. I’d say shaming the offending party into apologizing might be a better way to diffuse the situation and not cause an embarrassing, multi-day meta-flame-fest. Taking your ball and going home, and then gloating about it with further closed-comments-posts wasn’t probably the best tactic.
sdhays
I didn’t read the comments on the offending thread but, as a white man, I can definitively say that I was incredibly offended…by the text masquerading as a link. That’s really, really not cool!
;-)
Seriously, though, the comment you pulled out and put in your post is right on. I’m not sure how well-formed this thought is, but my mind jumps to when the right-wing wet their collective pants about the President bowing to the king of Saudi Arabia (and later to another leader, I think; the man just couldn’t stop himself). Now, I know that the reason that they screeched about it was because our President is a Democrat; John Kerrey would have gotten the same treatment in this instance, I have no doubt. But the “reason” that they gave was that the world should be bowing to the President because he’s the “Leader of the Free World” etc., as if everyone knowing that the USA is an extremely powerful country isn’t enough, everyone should lick our boots and tell us how great we are. It comes from an incredibly insecure part of the human psyche, and people who think this way should see a therapist. Seriously.
Anyway, I’m also reminded of a conversation I had in an unusual setting with someone who works on Capitol Hill. We were at a party and somehow the topic turned to, I believe, the large number of “POC” in American prisons. Not a topic I would actively choose to bring up with strangers, but these things happen. What was actually said is now fuzzy to me, but this guy was pontificating at length about how the problem was all the “black community” just sucking worse than the population as a whole. I tried to make some points about the statistics he used, but I wasn’t really prepared and I was pretty uncomfortable discussing the problems of the “black community” since I’m obviously not a member of it and am really not qualified to comment. And neither was he, yet he did it confidently and condescendingly. And he’s a Democrat. One of the most surreal and depressing moments since my return to this country.
Having lived a few years in Asia, I have had a tiny taste of what it’s like to be a visible minority. I haven’t a clue how hard it is to be black in America, but I know it’s a hell of a lot harder and uncomfortable than being white. Once again, your commenter is correct: lack of empathy is the root of all evil.
gwangung
@Fred: Hm. You DO realize that’s one of the worst things you can say? Are you still not realizing that your reality and experience isn’t other people’s reality and experience? (Of course you dont….sigh)
DecidedFenceSitter
ABL, just as a point of order – you may not want to tag this post as an “Open Thread” and then tell people not to derail and post in an open thread is a bit contradictory on the face of it. Change it to “assholes” or something.
60th Street
@BlizzardOfOz: Aaaand thanks for helping to make my point. Give the man a prize. Everybody wins.
Let’s talk about that context, now, shall we.
You’re telling me that “you people”-ing an all black crowd is different than “you people”-ing a liberal blog?
Why?
See, this is the problem with your fucking CreepingPrivilege®: At worst, it’s patently racist. At best, it’s the kneejerk soft-racist assumption that all people reading liberal blogs must be white! Or, at least the assumption that not enough POC are reading to merit a conscious effort to curb racially-insensitive rhetoric.
Exactly how many ethnics need to be present in the room before such consideration is warranted? Hmm?
What the fuck does it say that this is even a question one needs to kick around in their head?
Yutsano
@gwangung:
Horse. Water. Drinkage. The boy ain’t picking it up.
Gary Boatwright
We don’t see the world as it is, we the see world as we are. – Anais Nin
poco
@60th Street: Thank you!
themann1086
@chopper: A winner is you!
mclaren
Really, ABL, the best way to deal with the whiners and exploding heads is just to post one of John Cole’s pics of Jesus giving everyone the finger.
If the chorus of shrill small eunuchs can’t handle your blogging, fuck ’em. Let ’em go elsewhere.
Brachiator
@David Moyes:
Variation on a theme. Intentional fallacy is not just about your authority, it is about the false assumption that a reader is duty bound to seek out the author’s intent. Similarly, I think the notion that we can only make a judgment about the racism of a statement if we know the speaker’s intent is just as flawed.
Also, too, much of the discussion in this thread is about rhetoric in discussion boards, so the concept of intentional fallacy fits right into the conversation.
Fred
@Keith G: Urrum, I would imagine there are a lot of these ‘you people’ types in Texas yes. Basically anywhere there are gullible people. Get it?!
Fred
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Thanks for telling me what I did. When did I do this exactly? It must have been the Tyler Durden side of me since I don’t remember doing it.
Fred
@gwangung: If YOU PEOPLE say so. Oh how awful of me. YOU PEOPLE must be so mad!
Yutsano
@Fred: Keep fornicating that poultry. Maybe you’ll figure out later why you just made a total dumbdonkey of yourself. I’ll give you a small clue. Baka.
Fred
@Bobby Thomson: Bahahahaha…..I didn’t even know some post I barely remember making causes some sort of blog world shit storm till about an hour ago. But feel free to think I am some sort of puppetmaster working in some Koch funded rat fucking organization or whatever if it satisfies your ‘color’ful imagination
David Moyes
@Brachiator: I understand what you meant. But I was not saying that you need to know whether someone is a racist in order to know if they’ve said something racist – I was saying that you need to know more than that somebody said something racist to know that they are a racist. I don’t think I’m a racist even though I know I’ve caught myself behaving in racist ways.
I am certainly not saying that it’s okay to say/do horrible things so long as you didn’t mean to be horrible. I’m saying we all occasionally do horrible things but that doesn’t mean that we’re all horrible people.
But, morally speaking, I am definitely not a consequentialist, and so since I think racism is a moral issue, I don’t like to see the conversation assume that framework.
Joel
apropos.
and no, this is not a reference to ABL.
Duncan Dönitz (formerly Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@Fred:
Jeez, dude, let me give you a few words of what I’d like to think might qualify as wisdom: Just say you’re sorry and we’ll all move on from this. Even better, be sorry, say so, and we’ll all move on from this. I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren’t an egregious asshole, but the more you fight about this and the deeper you dig in your heels, the more you come across as one.
You wrote something that pissed off ABL yesterday. Maybe you didn’t mean to piss her off, but you did all the same. It’s time to say–and mean when you say it–“Wow, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to offend you. I’m sorry I offended you, and now I’ve learned something from this. I’ll try to do better.”
You could have headed this whole shitstorm off at the beginning if you’d taken that tack. Even if you’d said that without meaning it, it would have saved all this fighting. But instead, you’ve dug in your heels and tried to blame ABL for taking offense. You know what? We all say or do offensive things now and then, often unwittingly. None of us are saints. I know I’ve pissed people off needlessly many times, often without meaning to. But the trick to being a grownup, and to getting along with others in society, and to not fostering needless strife all the time, is to own up to it when you do something wrong.
So you wrote something dumb. Big deal. And you’ve compounded it by fighting about it and trying to blame somebody else for getting pissed off at your dumb comment, and then even needlessly stoking things even more today by being stubbornly unwilling to acknowledge that “you people” is offensive to black Americans. But, the thing is, it’s never too late to make amends. Just admit what you did, to yourself and to ABL, say you’re sorry and mean it, and my guess is, this will blow over as quickly as a summer thunderstorm.
I realize that all this depends on your having written what set this all off in good faith. If that’s the case, you aren’t an egregious asshole, just a guy who said something dumb, and then felt too defensive to own up to it, and let it grow into this whole big mess. I think we’ve all done dumb shit like this from time to time.
But there’s always the chance that you did know just what you were saying, and you did understand how it was likely to be taken, in which case, you are an egregious asshole. But we’ll never know, so you could always take the high road, do the right thing now, and we’ll never be any the wiser. But if you don’t, then we’ll know pretty confidently that you knew what you were doing all along, and that you are indeed an egregious asshole. It’s your choice. But don’t blame ABL for what you choose to do or not do.
Just Some Fuckhead
You people really know how to beat a dead horse.
Duncan Dönitz (formerly Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Guilty.
4jkb4ia
ABL–tell that guy I said he was an asshole. Being able to react to racist remarks is one of the things that the civil rights movement won for black people. If these kinds of remarks were being made about President Feingold or President Cantor you would expect Jews, professional or not, to be very vigilant about them, because the subtext is about acceptance in this country. And that is my entire two cents on this matter.
Dustin
@Observer:
Context? You want context you sanctimonious asshole? My grandparents fled Belfast in 1975 because just about the worst thing you could be at the time was a family of atheists in the middle of a Catholic/Protestant war. Do you know what happens when your safety depends on being part of the right one of two groups fighting it out with car bombs and nightime opposition assassinations? Do you know what happens when both sides question your loyalty and start threatening your family and you can’t tell who’s friend and who’s foe because they all look the same?
No, you don’t. So kindly fuck off. My family fled to America to find peace, and here I am having to fend off accusations of racism by some asshole who feels a right to stick me with the label because of my skin tone. I may be white, and I will never deny that I can blend in just by virtue of birth, but if you think my family doesn’t understand persecution you have a damn funny notion of the term. So you want to label people racist? Look in the mirror asshole.
@ABL:
I apologize for having the definition of the term reversed, but it’s a particular pet-peeve of mine is being told what I think or what motivates me by people who don’t know me. My mother used to do the same thing when she got upset with me because she thought I was mad and nagged me until I actually got to the point of aggravation.
As for “regularly” throwing bombs? I’d say it’s not regular as in constant since you started writing here, but it certainly is something that’s happened a lot over the last few days. It’s like a nasty feedback loop that’s gotten the entire community in a bad way. I say you throw bombs as a discussionary tactic because you’ve been doing so for days. Regardless of the moment to moment heat I have little doubt that this episode has had a positive impact on at least one individual here at BJ, and for that I applaud you.
Keep doing what you’re doing and keep poking the hornet’s nest, but please keep the dialog open when they start to swarm. Being the focal point of so much ignorant vitriol by some commenter’s can’t be easy, but for every jackass there are many more who have good intentions, even if we don’t all see eye to eye at the moment. Shutting down the conversation, however, retards any progress that might be made. It “hardens the heart”, so to speak.
@catperson:
The fault with this argument is the notion that white people, regardless of our personal histories, are a unified group. See my response to Observer regarding this point. My family’s experiences in Ireland two generations ago, my mothers’ experience as an poor immigrant child, and my experience as an open atheist in a community that questions my patriotism and basic humanity every time I try to participate in our local government or the public square… all of these things are experiences that get brushed aside as inconsequential in discussions of race relations because they don’t fit the standard mold.
It actually goes beyond that because to people like Observer the fact that I even bring up my own familial history with persecution is an attack on POC, like I’m somehow belittling their situation by comparing it to my own. Sorry to say, but being told I’m not fit to play with the neighbor children because of my family’s beliefs didn’t feel a lot different than I imagine it would have felt if I’d been rejected for the color of my skin. Persecution is persecution, regardless of the focal point or people on the receiving end.
When a person’s very attempts at reaching common ground are attacked there’s not much hope for the conversation having a positive outcome, at least not until it’s had a chance to run it’s course over the long term.
And again, Observer, kindly jump off a fucking bridge you ignorant, sanctimonious racist. I’ve said my peace and hope this all has a happy outcome, but for now I’m going to enjoy the fact that I just discovered the entire Tremors movie series is on Netflix.
Peace
MBL
@Anton Sirius:
Not remotely true.
dcmartin
@WaterGirl: My question was not rhetorical, it was quite literal, and unless, in your attemt to edit to make it shorter, your answer says that NO, you didn’t read it. You looked at the picture, got offended,jumped to a ready-made conclusion about ABL’s mindset and intent without putting it in context with the post content, and ran with that.
Like more than a few people did.
I get that more than a few people here dislike her style/subjects. But when you project your own bias into her work and edit your comments in a way that make you look like a lazy reader, people will call you on it.
dcmartin
Whoops, should read”unless, in your attemt to edit to make it shorter you left out some pertinent facts,”
DonkeyKong
Are we at peak butt hurt yet?
Corner Stone
@DonkeyKong: Hmmm…doesn’t feel right…I’m thinking another 3 or so degrees oughtta do it.
FormerSwingVoter
Am I the only one who’s noticed that when John Cole posts to call us all a bunch of assholes, everyone’s like “Yeah, JC! You tell us!” But when ABL calls us out on our bullshit, everyone gets all up in arms?
Corner Stone
@FormerSwingVoter: So…I guess context means…
johnny walker
I put this in the Shark Sandwich thread. I figure it goes here too. I figure putting it up twice is sufficient, as I did a good enough job of spamming the shit out of random threads the other night.
—
The only explanation I can offer on the Ensign thing is that I was piss-drunk, +however many are in 2 bottles of wine, etc. That’s not an excuse — I’m an adult, I’m responsible for my own actions and I can normally handle my liquor a lot better than that. Near as I can tell, I was trying to argue some parliamentary technicality that I thought made sense, but mostly I was just a raging drunk asshole pissed off at being called a racist for being offended at what I believe is a patently-racist image.
Things that were completely shitty and I had no right to do, and am deservedly catching a bunch of shit for:
)) “Raycess” thing — terrible. I was trying to convey some kind’ve shorthand/meme/whatever to indicate that I felt like I was being assigned racism unfairly, but that wasn’t the right way to do so.
)) Ensign crap: Not particularly egregious in my mind, but a rather hilarious example of refusing to accept you’re wrong / confused / drunk / whatever / I still don’t know what happened but I sure made a fool of myself.
)) Taking over the Ensign thread: worse. Shouldn’t have happened. I do believe at some point I was openly acknowledging that I felt like I was being egged on to continue, but it’s still on me to step away from the keys.
)) Emailing Cole. Major weakage.
)) I believe I also gave ABL shit on Twitter. Also weak. I can’t actually remember what I said, and I deleted my twitter outta a combination of shame and the simple fact that I probably don’t need a way to spew drunk bullshit that easily at people. But I have a general sense that it was excessively vicious.
)) Probably some other shit that I forgot because I was basically blacked out.
)) The level of viciousness in attacking ABL’s writing. It was gratuitous and unnecessary.
Now that said, I believed, and continue to believe, that I had a couple very valid points, my absolute failure to be a quality advocate for those points notwithstanding:
)) That “all fat white dudes hate minorities etc” picture was fucking gross and I don’t see how it’s even remotely defensible. I remember there being a discussion of satire, etc — after thinking about it some more I just don’t see anything satirical about it. It was just flat-out mean. That’s basically a picture of me: a fat, slobby, stupid-looking white dude. That is the only qualification that picture offers: “This guy is white, therefore he hates educated women, hates minorities, has a bad relationship with his wife,” etc etc. Take it to the abstract, and you have a picture that says, “All members of group x hold belief y and engage in behavior z.” That’s racist as shit, and frankly downright hateful. Do we really think having whatever level of white privilege I/we/whoever do enjoy doesn’t make that picture hurtful? Or is it that it’s ok to hurt people as long as you see them as part of the privileged group?
I look at that picture, and I see someone saying that they know who I am and what I think based on the way I look. We can have a conversation about whether, absent any real context of what the particular individual’s life is like, it’s more acceptable to be racist and hateful toward members of privileged groups, but that’s a seperate issue. If we go there, we’re talking why and how. I’m talking is, as in: the fact that that picture was racist as hell is plain as day, and posting that picture while simultaneously expressing puzzlement as to why white people might feel threatened or adopt an us-vs-them mentality after seeing something like that is mind-boggling. Forget whether or not it’s accurate, correct, right, etc. Can we at least see how coming at someone with a “Oh, I already know all about you, you racist misogynist,” might be upsetting?
)) As far as why I spelled out exactly what I didn’t like about ABL’s writing, it was in response to being told something to the effect that I couldn’t handle her being black, couldn’t handle her being an educated woman, or etc. Well, that’s not true, so what are my options? Do I go, “Oh, you’re right! I’m a total racist! I see it now!” or do I tell the truth? Probably pointless either way, because this stuff was coming from the segments of the threadosphere that love arbitrarily assigning shit in order to win arguments anyway, but that’s where I was coming from.
)) On the white privilege, etc. level — I remember saying something about how we could talk about ethnic group x, ethnic group y, etc. in the aggregate if we wanted, but at the individual level you have a writer who (to my estimation) repeatedly flaunts her JD, recently posted something about how she could just bail on the country and get a great job somewhere else, etc. Well, I don’t have those things. I don’t have that option. Personally, I’m on SSI, I get about $850 a month, blah blah, it sucks, it’s hard, yadda yadda. And that includes being part of a group that is described as “mentally ill” at best, and “fucking crazy” at worst. As I said before, I’m not equating the level of shit that being a little off in the head brings me to the level of shit that a woman of color would have to deal with. But just because you see, “Oh, white guy” doesn’t mean it’s fair to automatically assign that person to the privileged class and assume you know so much about them that it’s fair to write them off wholesale.
Folks can feel free to lavel this a “whinge” or etc. I could give a fuck. It informs where I’m coming from, and if you can’t handle hearing that not every white dude is firmly middle-class, etc. that’s your issue. I believe Cole did a post about this awhile back when Jim Webb mentioned that, hey, there’s a serious poverty problem among white folks in certain areas of the Virginias, and being lumped in with all the WASPy tortoiseshell-glasses-and-fangs crowd as though there’s some giant white monolith soooooorta makes people who’re struggling to get by furious. Maybe that helps you understand where I’m coming from.
My family doesn’t live high on the hog — dad lives in a 1 bedroom apartment, mom and stepdad have recently stepped up to a grand-ol 2 bedroom. In short, we’re dirt fucking poor, scratched and clawed for everything we have, and I’ve watched my relatives’ heads get filled with this bullshit about how they wouldn’t have to live this way if it wasn’t for affirmative action, and etc. I know better, but the rest of ’em are too far gone on that shit. So what’s the point? Well, #1, that other than a few scattered details and the obvious fact that I become an inexcusably-belligerent asshole when I drink two bottles of wine in 3 hours, you don’t know me and shouldn’t pretend to. And I’ll do my best to extend the same courtesy. I’ve looked over the derailing for dummies site, I see the stuff about, “Well, that happens to me too!” and etc. Well, sometimes that’s accurate and sometimes it’s a cop-out. When I’m presented with this hateful picture and then told the only reason I have a problem with it is that I hate minorities and women, well, I don’t know what part of the DFD website I’m supposed to link people to for that, but I’d hope they could realize that’s some fucking bullshit without the visual aid.
)) And I do think ABL engages in some grossly unfair rhetorical tactics regarding her pseudonym, ethnicity, gender, etc. When you have a pseudonymous blogger whom we only know to refer to as ABL or Angry Black Lady, and then people who refer to her that way are accused of reinforcing stereotypes, then what the fuck? How are people supposed to address you? I remember seeing a post where you said Joan Walsh was perpetuating the stereotype simply because she didn’t edit your screen-name out of one of her tweets in a post on Salon. Was she supposed to replace @AngryBlackLady with an ellipsis? Include everyone else’s SN, but then add “…and others” so she doesn’t accidentally reinforce stereotypes by acknowledging the screen name that you’ve chosen for yourself? How else should people refer to you? Maybe I’m missing something, but this is what I meant when I referred to this as a “neat trick.”
So in short, I apologize for the level of viciousness, I apologize for the parts where I slipped into some quasi-racist bullshit of my own (I hope that’s not really me, but this bears further reflection), and I apologize for stepping into Anne’s thread / Cole’s living room and flinging my poo all over the place. At the same time, I think it’s perfectly acceptable to ask what was up with that picture, to point out that even if you rationalize and mock people for being offended it was still quite hurtful, and to tell anyone who wants to assign me bigotry and “Well you just can’t handle an educated woman” to take a hike. I made a disgusting spectacle of myself the other night, and I get that a lot of people are happy to point at that and say, “Ah, see! That picture isn’t racist after all!” No, sorry. These are distinct issues. I could drink 8 bottles of wine, 37 bottles of wine, 947 bottles of wine, and none of that would excuse anyone’s rhetorical excesses — mine or anyone else’s.
So whatever. Have at me. I can take it, and in large part I deserve it. Still, I can admit where I fucked up. How about you?
johnny walker
@Lysana: Sorry, there’s nothing offensive about suggesting that it’s fair to assume “that kind” of white person hates their wives? Because it’s simply taken as fact? Is it because ‘everyone knows’ that “that kind” of white person can be safely assumed to be a misogynist asshole? How do we know anything about that guy beyond what he looks like, this might make more sense. Do you see the problem here? In what cases is it ok to write people off wholesale based on what you assume about them based on apperance?
What I’m getting from a lot of the comments here, including the one ABL reposted, is that racism really isn’t such a big deal as long as it isn’t being practiced against marginalized groups. I’m trying to understand this, but I’m failing. Two wrongs make a right, as long as one of the wrongs is demonstrably worse?
At some point a lot of the posters here seem to have shifted from “It’s bad, but the point was to spur discussion” to “Frankly it’s not a big deal, and I don’t know where you get off finding that offensive because other people have it worse.”
D-Chance.
If you burn the house down, be sure that at least some of you burn to death in it.
This is precisely why Balloon Juice remains a one-man operation. The pee-ons are a waste.
JG
@MBL: Um, asshole, you DON’T have the right to tell her what she thinks or feels. She’s a person with agency and thoughts. You have the right to take a different interpretation of the comment or disagree about the intent. But telling her she can’t think something is racist/sexist/whatever is basically the definition of privilege. It basically implies she’s not enough of a person to have an interpretation because you (in the privileged position of being able to distance yourself from the comment) don’t think it’s racist. It’s patronizing.
Dustin
@JG: Not that I disagree JG, but what’s your opinion on the whole “white people can’t be offended by the racist picture” angle to this discussion? Do you agree, can they not, as a person with agency and thoughts and a right to interpretation, discuss the fact that using such imagery is racist?
Dustin
JG: Actually you know, screw it, after re-reading MBL’s comment I’d like you to point out where they said ABL does’t have a right to think or feel whatever she wants. No, really. Do it. If all you can find is MBL stating quite plainly that they simply don’t agree with the consensus interpretation and that they think ABL went overboard in her defensiveness, what are the chances you’ll quit calling them an asshole for disagreeing with you?
My guess, not good. You’ve already stuck the racist label on them per your response, so every interaction you have with them from this point out will be tainted with that impression.
catperson
@Dustin:
I think the existence of white privilege is an observation, not a judgment, if that makes sense. And it’s not necessarily applicable outside of western cultures. But it doesn’t mean that you’re personally responsible for slavery or poverty in the black community or whatever social ills.
It also doesn’t mean that life can’t kick the shit out of a white person or that a white person can’t experience prejudice. Or that being white insulates someone from being marginalized in other ways (e.g. being LGBT, poor etc). I don’t think anyone should be trying to discount your personal experiences/suffering or that of your family.
BUT, white privilege is a recognition of the fact that being a member of the dominant cultural group has advantages that are often invisible to the members of that group. It’s a real phenomenon even for white people whom life is kicking the shit out of.
(This is why I don’t really believe that true racial equality is a zero-sum game. Maybe if you reach the endpoint of multicultural rainbows and unicorns it feels that way, but the process hurts because it does involve dismantling the hierarchy. /digression)
I pulled the quote above from what you said because I think the frustration you’re feeling now at not having your voice heard or your feelings/experiences respected, or that you’re being dismissed as having nothing to offer to the conversation is how a lot of POC feel at least once in a while if not often or always. (As do other ‘out’ groups, including the poor.)
But at the end of the day, a white person is more likely than a PoC to find someone who *will* respect them.
I don’t know if you looked at the privilege list or not; it’s worth doing.
BTW, I totally get why people were offended by that picture; I didn’t particularly care for it even with context. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
But when one feels silenced and then has a chance to speak and gets shot down for doing the same thing that they’re subjected to all the damn time (and rarely see challenged), it really sucks. I haven’t said this quite as well as I’d like, but I’m tired and the conversation about punching up vs punching down is beyond me at the moment.
catperson
ugh. I meant *isn’t a zero sum game*
MBL
@JG: Which all would be great, if I’d done that. I did none of those things. She said that the statement was racist and offensive, full stop. She’s wrong. She’s wrong even if she’s black. That doesn’t mean that only the opinions of white people matter or that the opinions of black people don’t. It means that the opinion of this black woman in this instance is wrong.
Further, note that whether she’s wrong or right about Fred’s objective meaning is actually irrelevant to how she feels. I’m not talking about how she feels. Neither, notably, is she– she’s saying that he’s racist and offensive and that that is the end of the conversation.
No.
Your inability to see the difference is not my problem.
Studly Pantload, now with enhanced schmuckosity
test?
ABL
So your position, then, is that you know better than I whether the comment was racist or offensive, and that I am wrong in thinking it was. Now explain to me how that is not exactly this:
You just said that there is not a case to be made that he was referencing black people.
Your comments are patently logically inconsistent. YOU don’t think a case can be made. YOU don’t think it was racist. I did and do.
So, logically, you are saying that your interpretation/opinion is right and mine is wrong, even though, if you are a white person, you haven’t lived my experiences.
That, my friend, is classic privilege.
More importantly, why is it so important to you to prove to everyone I’m wrong? What offends you about me calling that statement offensive?
It’s twisted.
Paul in KY
@60th Street: I wouldn’t mind watching some of that.
Rancher
Anyone using the term ‘you people’ in this context is either completely clueless or dog whistling. I’m a middle-aged white guy who grew up in the South – I know what I’m talking about. ABL, illegitimi non carborundum – you are doing great work and I really appreciate your perspective.
Paul in KY
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): That’s my sentiment too. Call them on their shit, every time.
Paul in KY
@FormerSwingVoter: I’ve noticed that. Probably because posters in general feel it is more advantageous to them (for whatever reason) to try & stay on John’s good side. ABL, these posters don’t seem to fear.
I say fear the ABL!