I have television in my house once again – for a little while. This is because it was cheaper to hook up television service when we were hooking up cable internet than to pay the set-up fee. It was actually cheaper to get television, a DVR, and HBO for one month than to pay the set-up fee, and since HBO was premiering its new series, A Game of Thrones, how could I resist?
I am a huge fantasy dork, and entirely unrepentant in my love of all things fantastical. (When my three year old daughter told me the other day she wished she could be in a story – not just imagine but actually be in one – I totally sympathized.)
I squandered most of my life away reading fantasy and science fiction when I should have been reading Serious Works of Philosophy and Politics. This is one reason I’m so bad at being ideological, why my political writing is so incapable of becoming grounded in one of our contemporary political factions.
Anyways. George R.R. Martin’s books are among my very favorite. And not just my favorite fantasy – they are, quite literally, some of the best books I’ve ever read. I remember years ago – probably six or seven years ago – thinking that really I hope they never turn these into films. I hope HBO turns them into a series instead.
Well my prayers were answered, and last night the very first episode of Game of Thrones debuted on HBO. And it was wonderful. Now, maybe there will be Martin fanboys out there who hated it – if so, I have managed to avoid reading them at this point. But I found the first installment of the show absolutely pitch perfect. The sets, costumes, cinematography, casting, acting, pacing – all the components were exactly right – nothing in my imagination’s vision of the books was really shattered, except perhaps that the most excellent Peter Dinklage is too handsome to be the Imp.
Adam Serwer has a good piece up at The American Prospect explaining why the complexity of the stories should provide a good alternative to the more black and white moral universe of The Lord of the Rings. He frames this as more appealing to liberals whereas LOTR had a certain Manichean appeal to conservatives. I personally think that we should avoid framing either work (or most works of fiction) in such stark terms. For one thing, I can only imagine what Tolkien would think of this current crop of American conservatives.
On the other hand, Martin is an unabashed liberal, but judging from his blog he cares a good deal more about football than he does politics. So perhaps A Game of Thrones should be framed more in terms of a good football game than anything else.
Adam also points us to this condescending claptrap from New York Times writer Ginia Bellafante who writes:
The true perversion, though, is the sense you get that all of this illicitness has been tossed in as a little something for the ladies, out of a justifiable fear, perhaps, that no woman alive would watch otherwise. While I do not doubt that there are women in the world who read books like Mr. Martin’s, I can honestly say that I have never met a single woman who has stood up in indignation at her book club and refused to read the latest from Lorrie Moore unless everyone agreed to “The Hobbit” first. “Game of Thrones” is boy fiction patronizingly turned out to reach the population’s other half.
Yes, because it isn’t possible that the show’s creators were actually going by the book – the sex must have been added to draw in women. Because obviously it’s only women who will want to see bare-breasted barbarian women dancing at a Dothraki wedding, or something.
Maybe girls will enjoy the show because the girls in these books are freaking awesome (we named our daughter after Arya Stark) – or because, in many ways, this is a fantasy series even feminists can enjoy.
Actually, I know quite a few girls who never read fantasy at all who then devoured these books. Obviously Bellafante didn’t bother to brush up on the literature before penning her scathing review of the series. She goes on:
When the network ventures away from its instincts for real-world sociology, as it has with the vampire saga “True Blood,” things start to feel cheap, and we feel as though we have been placed in the hands of cheaters. “Game of Thrones” serves up a lot of confusion in the name of no larger or really relevant idea beyond sketchily fleshed-out notions that war is ugly, families are insidious and power is hot. If you are not averse to the Dungeons & Dragons aesthetic, the series might be worth the effort. If you are nearly anyone else, you will hunger for HBO to get back to the business of languages for which we already have a dictionary.
Right. Martin’s books teach us that “power is hot”. As Adam notes:
Look, I’m a geek. I like geek stuff. Not everyone likes geek stuff. That’s cool. But the genre of arts review I hate the most is the kind when the reviewer, not content to savage the material itself, begins to express contempt for the audience they imagine might actually like it. With the popularity of fantasy subgenres like Harry Potter and Twilight, neither of which I’m particularly fond of, this sort of review has become less common. But it’s still irritating and patronizing to the reader for the Times to publish a review in which the reviewer suggesting the audience is a bunch of loser guys in a basement tossing around 12-sided die and sharing each other’s hopes and dreams of someday getting to third base, because women couldn’t possibly like it.
Other than the bit about Harry Potter (dude, Harry Potter was awesome, at least from the third book/film on…) I’m with Adam here. Bellafante presumes to judge not just a genre, but an entire group of people. And we’re talking about a group of people that’s pretty large. Martin’s books have all been New York Times bestsellers, and fantasy – if you haven’t noticed – is only growing in popularity, both on film and on the printed page. Bellafante might be a really lovely person in real life, but in this review she comes across as an out of touch snob who won’t even deign to familiarize herself with the work she so scornfully dismisses.
What’s the point of reviewing a work from a genre that you not only loathe, but whose audience you loathe? I just don’t get it.
Expect lots more of this (both well-meaning and not) from non-fantasy-types eager to find relevance for today’s world in the new HBO series.
~
A Game of Thrones airs Sunday nights at 9PM ET on HBO.
Contact me at [email protected] or follow me on Twitter.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
I know nothing about Game of Thrones, but it looks like it needs to be on my list. I hope Sean Bean isn’t playing a heavy in this one.
(OT) Boromir was my favorite character in LOTR, because he was so complex. At least until Frodo’s scene in Mt Doom, he was the one who struggled hardest against the ring, and failed, only to come through at the end defending the hobbits.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
Oh please.
No one believes that.
You are a garden variety socially liberal fiscally conservative psuedo-libertarian freemarketeer.
There are hundreds just EXACTLY like you.
That said, I luffed the books and the series is awesome so far.
Good review.
WereBear
George RR Martin absolutely ROCKS.
If this is a non-embarrassing adaptation, it’s all anyone needs to know.
Mnemosyne
Hasn’t fantasy always been stereotyped as feminine, unlike manly hard science fiction? That makes her, like, quadruply wrong.
ruemara
hmm. Never read it, probably never will, but half my friends, male and female are huge fans and have been slavering in anticipation. Whomever that female reviewer is should just shut her mouth until she knows what she’s talking about.
feebog
The opening episode was awesome. The problem I see with the series ongoing is that there are so many characters, and so many twists that it is inevitable that some good stuff is going to have to be cut. The other problem is that George R.R. Martin has been promising the 5th novel in the series for the last four years and has yet to deliver. I fear the old gentleman is going to croak before the series is completed.
j low
Ah. That explains why you used to identify as libertarian/conservative.
John Cole
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: Fucking stop it, you stalker freak.
Mr. Poppinfresh
Wait, when did Our Lady of Perpetual Crazy change her handle?
E.D. Kain
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason: Totally agree re: Boromir.
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: setting aside the free market stuff, thanks! They are amazing books, no?
@WereBear: frankly, this is as honest an adaptation as I think anyone could hope for. I’m really truly pleased.
@Mnemosyne: has it been? I didn’t know that. I certainly didn’t know that gratuitous sex was for the girls though. I mean, maybe some girls…
@ruemara: Yes. She should.
E.D. Kain
@j low: actually yes! In many ways that’s true. Sadly.
BGinCHI
David Benioff is one of the reasons this is so good. He’s a smart cookie and I’m glad he’s involved.
I did think it was odd though to put the “Bran gets shoved out of the window” scene right at the end of episode 1, since it leaves what happens to him unresolved. I know that will open the next one, but it’s such a surprise in the narrative of the novel it needs a full airing. You come to think he’s going to be the main character in a coming-of-age story and this twist is a really risky and profound move by Martin.
Anyway, it’s good so far and look forward to more.
Pixie
I can’t wait to see the series. I love the books and I’m marking my calendar down til the magical 12 Jul 11. The female characters are amazing and I’ll have to agree that Arya is probably one of the most badass characters ever created :) GRRM’s writing is probably some of the best I’ve ever read. His skill is truly amazing. I didn’t get HBO but I am going to eat this **** up if it comes to iTunes!!!!!
moe99
I’m a 58 year old female attorney who has been reading fantasy ever since I read my parents’ Wizard of Oz books (there were lots of sequels). I still remember finishing the Lord of the Rings in 6th grade and mourning that it was over. George RR Martin and Guy Gavriel Kay are the only two authors of epic fantasy, that I’ve read, who come close to the majesty and power of Tolkien. Greg Keyes is a distant 3d.
The one thing that the HBO series cannot recreate is the sheer beauty of Martin’s language. It reads infinitely better. And you’re right, Dinklage is far too good looking. But I can deal (grin).
Steve
I used to read a lot of epic fantasy back in the day, ranging from classics like Tolkien to total dreck like Terry Brooks. I think the last I read was Robert Jordan (the first six books or so). I sorta gave up on the genre, even though I still enjoyed it, because it did have a certain sameness to it and I wanted to look for more diverse purposes (including nonfiction!) for the more limited reading time I have as an adult.
Having said that, my wife really enjoyed the Martin books and I’m open to the suggestion that they really are that much better than anything else out there. So my question to fans of the series is what they would say to explain why these particular books are a must-read, even for someone who has consumed a voluminous amount of epic fantasy and feels like he’s read it all at this point.
Cassidy
@Hermione Granger-Weasley: What is it you called everyone who “bleats” continuously or something like that? Cudlips? Go look in a mirror, kiddo. Then wash the emo, gloom-cookie out of your teeth and then you can come back and enjoy the conversation with the other big people.
I would love to watch this, but I’m only getting HBO for the teaser period. I refuse to watch and then gt cut off. I can’t give up Showtime, though. Only place to catch Strikeforce.
Nemo_N
Everyone who likes something I dislike is an ugly, dirty virgin human scumbag.
Dennis SGMM
Thanks for the excellent review. I have always divided my squandering between reading Serious Works of Philosophy and Politics and science fiction. I’ve been influenced as much by the latter as by the former.
You have convinced me to unbend from my no watching TV stance enough to give “A Game of Thrones” a shot. I’ll see if I can catch the opening episode on On Demand.
Joel
Not much on fantasy in the traditional sense. I spent my youth fantasizing about being cool like those people in Singles.
BGinCHI
E.D., I’d also apply this to governing.
What’s the point of becoming a politician and thus getting entrusted with governing when you loathe government?
It’s fucking perverse. Or it’s about something else….
Sirkowski
Never read the books, but I loved the first episode.
Evil Bender
Many of the women in my life, including my partner and the chair of my graduate committee, are huge Martin fans. They were particularly livid. As was I.
I honestly thought we were through condescending attacks on whole genres masquerading as reviews of particular works was behind us. Clearly it isn’t behind everyone.
–and seriously, what’s with the “Game of Thrones” as a global warming metaphor BS? I mean, she not only thinks all fantasy is boy-centered Hobbit remakes, but she also likes to project insane theories on the texts? So terrible.
Cassidy
@Steve: That’s the thing about fantasy and sci-fi; it’s all been done. There are no more original stories. Lot’s of well written, well imagined, but in the end, it’s all been done. I have a hard time reading anything these days. Generally, I stick with zombies, at this point.
JC
One of the best series ever, except the last book, erred in being too involved, and some of the character choices started making no sense, which wasn’t true for the majority of plot lines and choices in the first couple of books.
And, yes, I think that the good Mr. Martin needs to farm out the rest of the series. When he released the last one, 5 years ago, was supposed to SOON release the next book, as according to him, book was almost finished, but was too large, so he had to split it.
So 5 years later, still waiting for the release (finally coming, now that Game of Thrones is out), of a book that was claimed to be finished, 5 years ago.
Brachiator
Very positive review in the UK Guardian: Game Of Thrones: don’t believe the gripes
Enjoy.
Martin
This thread gives me a happy.
wasabi gasp
Bring your kid upstairs, tell her she’s in two, and then give her a frog or something.
freelancer
I haven’t read the books or known anything about the story until last night. I found the show thoroughly entertaining, definitely a slow burn alluding to more to come as the season unfolds.
The Times review was utter shit. Seriously, a lot of other publications had their film reviewers take a stab at this show, but the Times had to bring out their in house Sally Quinn to lap condescension on anything vaguely outside angsty thirtysomething yuppie entertainment.
Ugh.
Evil Bender
@Steve: They’re a must-read because they combine epic fantasy with brilliant insight into politics, they present a shades-of-gray world which serves as a critique of traditional black-and-white fantasy narratives (more of this as the series goes along), and they present a huge cast of compelling, fully realized characters in a way that’s almost impossible not to be fascinated by.
Oh: and its a grim setting with real-world stakes. I stopped reading much fantasy when I grew tired of the heroes always winning and the good guys always surviving. To avoid spoilers, let me just say: beware of getting too attached to any characters. Martin’s world is incredibly dangerous.
JC
Steve,
This series, at least the first few books, are really just much MUCH better than the typical fantasy other stuff out there. The use of language, the fleshed out characterizations of the people, it’s just top class.
You mentioned you read Guy Gavriel Kay. If so, think Tigana level writing. Just a tad less poetic, but still very very good.
RobertB
I think Mr. Serwer’s critique of that NYT review is right on the mark. I’m not sure why an editor would assign a genre review to someone who dislikes the genre, but it seems to happen more often that chance would dictate.
Cassidy
@Evil Bender:
You should be reading Warhammer/ 40K then.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@John Cole: what did i say that wasn’t true?
I thought you said EDK and ABL could defend themselves?
go ahead ban me again. He obviously can’t.
And that isn’t stalking.
I bin stalked.
MazeDancer
The books were grand – though like all epic series, the excess verbosity goes up as the volumes add on.
And maybe Martin will actually finish the next installment now. Perhaps HBO added a “must complete” clause to the purchasing. Certainly there was a “must promo George” clause to the PR.
Thought Peter Dinklage’s handsomeness actually added to Tyrion. Loved the fact the wardrobe made Dinklage cut a dashing figure no matter his stature. Made it more obvious that it’s only the deviation from society-approved height that counted.
It was remarkable how little in the show contradicted the images in my head when reading. Except, for three things. 1) Targaryren blonde hair was not a cheesy dye job fright wig. (Strange distraction in a show with such careful costumes) 2) Drogo was actually ruggedly appealing and not some muscle beach cartoon and 3) Way less naked women.(I’m female.)
Trentrunner
The great novelist and good critic Vladimir Nabokov said that all great novels are fairy tales, creating their own unreal world that we love to believe in.
I think that ALL the fanboy bashing (Potter, Twilight, LOTR, Star Wars, whatever) is horseshit. People should be free to love the stories they love. If it’s not for you, move on. If you’re a writer, figure out what makes the good ones good, the bad ones bad. Then write accordingly.
All the rest is just critical posturing and annoying dick-measuring.
Oh, and I LOVED last night’s AGOT premiere, never read the books.
Tom Hilton
Excellent review, and I’m enormously glad to see the GRRM geeks come out here. It’s an amazing series, and from what I’ve seen so far (1 episode, so take that for whatever it’s worth) D&D are doing a fantastic job adapting it to a visual medium. (And a when-geek-worlds-collide bonus: Jane! Espenson! wrote one of this season’s episodes.)
Bellafante is stupidly, embarrassingly full of shit (as was the the Slate reviewer who panned it in a review written in a faux-medieval style he apparently thought was standard for fantasy). Clue for Bellafante: actively embracing the most hackneyed gender stereotypes? Not actually feminist.
ETA: The adaptation is very faithful, and the changes they do make so far a) make sense either as condensation or in the service of making it more visual, and b) are consistent with the characters and the overall story.
BGinCHI
Geek Girl Diva nails it on the Ginia Bellafante review:
http://www.geekgirldiva.com/2011/04/to-ginia-bellafante-regarding-your.html
Dennis SGMM
@Cassidy:
Same with love and death. You may be correct in broad outline however I would hold up the work of China Mieville,Iain M. Banks, and Neal Stephenson as both innovative and well worth reading.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@Cassidy:
it isnt a gloom cookie.
its a death cookie.
Cheryl from Maryland
Stereotyping as in the NYT’s review is so lazy — the WaPo review is equally condescending and clueless. And I say that as someone who still has all of the Ballantine fantasy paperbacks she purchased in the 1970’s.
When I read “Game of Thrones,” I thought it was a fantasy game changer — not so much in the complexity of the plot, but in the more believable politics and with more of the dirt, danger, dire and gore that was the Middle Ages. Not to mention GRRM’s ability to eliminate characters (yes, I know Boromir dies, and I loved Sean Bean’s performance, but in Tolkien’s world, he had it coming)and have characters change. GRRM’s books are shocking.
And I feel the HBO series has that same feeling of not being on solid ground — the moral ambivalence (in a good way), the understanding that good doesn’t always save you or bad fail you. Read people’s reaction to Bran falling — whether you agree with it or not, whether you like it or not, it was disconcerting, yet moving. And you will be back next week.
More please. Oh, and I would pay money to hear Sean Bean read the telephone book, so this is a totally biased review.
Evil Bender
@Cassidy: Thanks for the recommendation! I’ve read a little. They–and others–do a good job of this. But the fantasy I grew up with largely didn’t, which really put me off: as every story-teller knows, the victories only mean something when they might have been loses.
RobertB
And you folks out there who are looking for your fantasy with Extra Grit, take a look at Joe Abercrombie.
Legalize
Glad I remembered to DVR it. Mrs. Legalize loves this kind of fantasy stuff. I go for the zombie stories myself.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Do fanboys ever like anything other than their own purest notion?
Btw, Marvel fanboy here – Don’t look now but the Thor movie has been reviewed. I’m sure I’ll enjoy it and watch the shock out of it. The only Marvel movie I’ve truly disliked is the Thomas Jane Punisher. I’ve only seen about 5 times.
BGinCHI
@Dennis SGMM: Second that emotion.
E.D. Kain
@Evil Bender: co-sign.
scottinnj
Is GOT going to be:
a) Excellent? or
b) Best mini series evah?
stuckinred
Screw fanboy, I’m a spyboy fan. . .bring on the Mardi Gras Indians down in the Treme!
Talkin bout hey now, hey now
Dennis SGMM
@John Cole:
I have never called for the banning of anyone, even those with whom I’ve had knockdown dragouts. Not even MYIQ2XU of unfond memory.
Hermione Granger-Weasley-Matoko Chan is in a category all her own. She is unable to resist attempting to derail every fucking thread with her permanent and incurable fixations.
Please consider throwing her out of the boat for at least a decade.
DecidedFenceSitter
I haven’t seen the series, but as far as the series goes – well Martin finally made it onto my “I’ll read it again when the series is finished, or the author is dead” category.
I enjoy the series, but [shuts up as he suddenly almost devolves into spoilers]. Let’s just leave it at that I have doubts about the story’s ability to finish as it is has been presented so far.
Wiesman
The first episode last night was phenomenal. Just brilliant.
Unfortunately my wife, who I convinced to watch with me and seemed genuinely interested, said afterwards, “I’m completely lost.” I hope she’ll continue to watch, but that wasn’t a good sign.
Tom Hilton
@Cheryl from Maryland:
Pamela F
I never heard of the author and I tend to like fantasy over sci-fi. However, don’t you think it’s a little bit weird that HBO has its “game of Thrones” while the other movie channels are concurrently airing “Camelot” and “The Borgias”? So much hacking and hewing, poisoning and brutal rape.
An “interesting” dialogue was from the (albino?) prince/king who told his sister that he’d allow 40,000 barbarians and their horses to fuck her if it meant he could use the barbarians to wage war and regain his throne. So far I’m not seeing the feminist aspect of this fantasy.
Oh, BTW, I hold anyone in suspicion who wants to politicize Tolkien in the name of conservatism.
Cassidy
@Dennis SGMM: I wasn’t trying to say that there isn’t any more good sci-fi or fantasy being written. Just that, I’ve been reading fanatsy for most of my life and for the most part they’ve become different versions of the same story. Some good, some bad.
@RobertB: Seconded
bookcat
I’m female and I absolurely LOVE all of the books in this series. I’ve been prattling on about them to anyone who will listen. I think these books are better than LOTR. There, I said it. But it’s true.
j low
Isn’t there some special internet island HGW/MC can go live on. Forever? Someplace very far away from any connecting tubes?
cyntax
As someone who came to the series cold (hadn’t read the books, don’t know anything about the universe/context that frames the story), I thought it was good. Didn’t love it, but very interested in seeing where it goes.
I think EDK raises some very good points about audience and critics. In particular this observations by Martin:
The NYT is perfectly happy to pan genre fiction, including the genres that have predominantly female audiences, so the reviewer’s criticism of the audience on the basis of gender rings hollow. And it seems even more egregious to me when I stop to think about the fact that a Jonathan Franzen book can be reviewed twice in the same week by the NYT. The attack of the audience is less about the work in question and more about the NYT defending the turf of “serious” literature. If only HBO would concentrate on the stuff the NYT deems sufficiently intellectual, everything would be fine.
BTW, my wife was also cautiously optimistic about the series, though she too assumed HBO had sexed up the series.
Cassidy
@Pamela F: Generally speaking, as fantasy has tried to get grittier and more real (where else do you go after High Fantasy perfection in Tolkien), the dominance of women and subjugation has become more pronounced, also elevating female characters to more badassness because they aren’t dominated or subjugated. And in Joe Abercrombie’s world they like sex as much as the next drunken fighter.
stuckinred
@Tom Hilton: spolier, bunch mofo’s get’s their head chopped off and the whenches bang da midget. You could get all that from that stupid 15 minute preview they forced in before Mildred!
Steve
Another series where you can’t count on the good guys winning is the Deryni series by Katherine Kurtz. A lot of very dark times in there. I would still read those books today but somehow I lost track of where the series was going a few years back (the novels kind of skip back and forth across quasi-historical eras).
Someone mentioned politics as an element of the Martin books they liked. This immediately put me in mind of Kim Stanley Robinson’s Mars series, which of course is SF and not fantasy, but is noteworthy for the treatment of otherworldly politics. The story of politics is just the story of human relationships with higher stakes.
Marc McKenzie
@WereBear:
And don’t forget, Werebear, that George is also heavily involved in the making of GOT. The developers of the series are huge fans of the books and brought Martin in at the start. He’s had a say in the production of the series and is even writing a script for an episode.
Now, that may not satisfy the diehard fans who will bitch about everything, but you know what? Screw ’em.
I do not have HBO, but I am very interested in this series, and I hope that it does well.
Jamey: Bike Commuter of the Gods
This all is funny because my grandfather used to refer to toilets as “the throne.”
Evil Bender
@Pamela F: Don’t confuse the dialogue of a (horrible, monstrous) character with the politics of the series, especially after one episode. I can’t say much more without spoilers, but that line’s purpose is largely to signal to the audience how odious the character is.
Robert Sneddon
Last time I spent a late night drinking at a con bar with GRRM he came out with his standard reply about how the series ends. Paraphrasing: “Everybody dies. The last volume will describe the snow blowing over the bodies while crows peck their eyes out.”
Then again that was several years back and he may have changed his mind.
Dennis SGMM
@Cassidy:
I hope that I didn’t convey the impression that I was dissing you. You are right in the sense that by the time you get to James Joyce it had all pretty much been done. I’m not much of a fantasy reader so I’m just guessing that there only so many ways to save a kingdom, brandish a sword or cast a spell.
I will give Martin’s books a try.
E.D. Kain
@Pamela F: just wait…
elmo
@Steve:
Must-freakin-read. I completely appreciate your viewpoint; like you, I gave up on the Robert Jordan Endless Wheel and started feeling a little jaded.
These are different.
Nobody is completely clean. Nobody is completely dirty. Everyone has their own view of what’s best for their families, the kingdom, and the world; everyone has different limits of how far they are willing to go.
I will say that I think the most recent book (released five years ago) suffered from the success of the first ones, because I think GRRM’s editors have given him too much of his head. He’s still (!) adding characters and storylines and complexity, and I think he’s overdoing it at this point.
But I don’t care, really — I will read it all, because it’s amazing.
DecidedFenceSitter
@Robert Sneddon: And that Robert is the one answer that doesn’t fill me with literary dread.
joel hanes
You guys don’t know ?
Martin’s publisher now feels certain enough to have announced that A Dance With Dragons will be published on July 12th 2011.
As for the HBO series, I missed the episode but have seen all the trailers, and I have these reactions :
Everyone appearing in a castle scene needs better, more colorful clothing, and the men need shaves — I can go with the drab and dirty and the whiskery while they’re afield, or at war, but where are the brilliant coats of arms? the bright livery? the gowns ? the glitter?
Winterfell is warm, has hot running water.
Even at war the Valyrian nobility pitches pavilions ….
This isn’t Braveheart, damnit.
But The Wall, and the garrison at The Wall, are entirely satisfactory, look just as I had imagined.
Dennis SGMM
@Marc McKenzie:
My late father did as well. When I first heard the words “A Game of Thrones” my diseased mine came up with a vision of Das Glasperlenspiel played with toilets.
Linnaeus
I’ve read all of the books a few times over (which is more than I can say I’ve done for LOTR) and I enjoyed the first episode. My roommate and I are considering adding HBO to our cable package just so we can see the rest of the series without having to go over other people’s houses (as we did yesterday).
Tom Hilton
@Pamela F: It’s a fair point based on the first episode alone. Over the course of the story, that changes–a lot. Stick with it and you’ll see what I mean.
Big C
@Pamela F: Keep watching. Daenaerys’ (the sister you refer to) story and character develop far beyond the apparent stereotype in this first episode.
(I’m a long time lurker here, but I love this series so it’s provoked me to comment.)
BTW, it’s a small thing, but does anyone know why HBO dropped the ‘A’ from ‘A Game of Thrones’? Will this continue if the series goes into multiple seasons? The next books are:
A Clash of Kings
A Storm of Swords
A Feast for Crows
A Dance with Dragons (coming out this summer I hope!)
Will the leading ‘A’ be stripped from all the tiles? I wonder why? Regardless it was a great first episode that I think captured the essence of the book.
Cassidy
@Dennis SGMM: No I didn’t. Just re-writing to not sound like the cynical fantasy fan. Still lots of great work out there.
scottinnj
@Pamela F:
Actually compared to the book, they toned down the scene between the blond prince and his sister.
lou
@Pamela F:
Remember, it’s a patriarchal society and episode one was just the setup. As the series goes on, you’ll see how strong the women are, with the insipid exception of Sansa. Even she grows up a bit and realizes her prince will not ride to her rescue. (and I don’t think that’s a spoiler).
I thought the first episode was great. My DH, who has a hard time focusing and hasn’t read the books, found it confusing.
My nitpick was the unnecessary boobage during Tyrion’s scenes. those weren’t in the book and it seemed to be more of a see what we can do throwaway. Yeah, he’s a whoremonger, but not quite to that extent.
@steve. The ending of episode one illustrated what shocking plot twists Martin throws in. Nobody is a hero, everyone is complex, even the villains. There are a some likable characters, but they have their flaws. It feels real. the fantasy “magical” elements feel organic instead of deus ex machina (I’m looking at you Robert Jordan). and they’re mostly scary and doled out sparingly.
No elves, dwarves (except Tyrion, who is one of the ones we find here in our world), orcs or hobbits.
batgirl
I loved the first episode and have put in a hold for the book at my library. Now the dilemma, I only have HBO right now because of a free one month special.
scav
Pish, we’ve been over part of this and pounded to a sub-atomic level. Why bother with a competent review when a cheap controversial one will likely pull in more clicks? Between the “This statement is not for informational purposes” crowd and the “Our Job is Not Just to Cover Things We Know to be True” media it’s likely that fantasy is the fastest growing genre of literature.
joel hanes
@bookcat:
Better than Tolkein ?
No. And not by a long chalk.
There’s nothing in Martin to equal
“I will take the Ring, though I do not know the way.”
But miles better than Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time, to which Martin’s fantasy is inevitably compared. I care deeply about Arya Stark, about Jon Snow, about Samwell Tarly. There isn’t one single character in Jordan’s books about whom I give a flip, and I gave up after six books in complete ennui.
Joseph Nobles
I got to see it after my stint of overtime last night. Haven’t read any of the books, but it looked right up my alley. I read the briefest of primers somewhere on the tubes, and it was just enough. I followed the whole thing, and I thought it was set up just as well as it could have been (the only thing that took me a little bit to catch onto was the former Hand being related in marriage to the Starks, but I finally got it). For an episode crammed full of exposition, it was fantastic.
And BPOAW let me know that I really will like this, because, doggoneit, evil people do evil things and good people suffer as a consequence. That and the revelation of Snow’s Dire just knocked my socks off.
Trentrunner
I’d also like to add:
I was fine with two or three human beheadings, dismemberments, and full-on views of decaying animal carnage…
..but when they help up the squealing wolf pup while they discussed its slaughter, I thought, “If they off that wolf pup, I’m outta here.”
No dog violence allowed. Period. People, on the other hand, have it coming.
MonkeyBoy
I really dislike trilogies or unending series such as “A Song of Ice and Fire” appears to be (5 books so far with 2 further announced titles). To me, I get the impression that they are produced for an audience that has a literary eating disorder.
Anyway, I did check my local very large library system where I find that the first book, “A game of thrones”, has “31 holds on first copy returned of 21 copies”.
PS I found reading LOTR to be dragged out unnecessarily, basically repeating the same plot elements over and over.
Stefan
An “interesting” dialogue was from the (albino?) prince/king who told his sister that he’d allow 40,000 barbarians and their horses to fuck her if it meant he could use the barbarians to wage war and regain his throne. So far I’m not seeing the feminist aspect of this fantasy.
Here’s a hint: the guy who said that was a bad guy. It’s meant to indicate that he’s a horrible power-mad psycho.
This is how, you know, how fiction sometimes works: there are many different characters, some good, some not so good, and every piece of their dialogue is not stamped with the author’s Seal of Ideological Approval.
E.D. Kain
@joel hanes:
I couldn’t even make it through the first of Jordan’s books. I agree about caring deeply about Martin’s characters. It makes me very nervous, actually.
Eric S.
@Jamey: Bike Commuter of the Gods: Many years and girlfriends ago the girl I was dating came over to my place. She found it hysterical that my copy of GoT was in the bathroom. I gave her the books to read and she fell in love with them.
I’ve seen a mix of comments by people who have read the book on how well they followed the story. After first watching The Sopranos I was definitely a little confused about who was who and what was going on. I think this is similar.
As someone who’s read the series multiple times the changes HBO made jumped out at me. Off the top of my head I can say there were 3 scenes added that weren’t in the books. In each instance I believe HBO made a fair decision to help define who the characters are.
I love the books and last night’s premier was awesome.
Question to the group, any clue why they changed the ranger that survived the attack of the Others (white walkers)?
JGabriel
E.D. Kain @ Top:
Liked it, didn’t love it. I thought the “vision of the book” was conventionalized in several ways which undermined Game of Thrones’ themes and distinctiveness.
For instance, in the show, upon sentencing and executing a prisoner, Ned Stark says to his son Brandon, “If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words.” That’s it. The book, however, continues, “And if you cannot do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die,” thereby implying a whole sense of choice, justice, and potential for reprieve — in line with Martin’s typically liberal values — that the fatalism of the first sentence lacks by itself. In other words, the first sentence describes a duty of honor to bear witness to a condemned man’s final words; the second transforms it into the responsibility of deciding his fate based on those words.
A second way in which the pilot is conventionalized is in its portrayal of the women. Catelyn, a political actor from the get-go in the book — urging her husband to head south with the king — is instead portrayed as a woman begging her husband not to leave her. That’s a less acceptable deviation from the book, since Martin’s portrayal of women as strong and self-motivated is one of the tropes that are said to distinguish his work from most fantasy.
That said, the pilot mostly worked. I liked the way the Arya’s rebelliousness at traditional females roles was quickly established by her sneakily besting her brother at marksmanship. Really, the writers and director overall did a good job of quickly establishing the characters. I just hope they figure out a way to tell the story without undermining its themes and tropes.
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J.W. Hamner
The George R.R. Martin books are a strange beast to me… I’ve really enjoyed reading them, but I’ve never been able to go back and reread them. I find this strange since any book I’ve enjoyed as much as “A Song of Ice and Fire” I’ve read several times at minimum. For me at least, it seems the rampant plot twists ruin my enjoyment the second time through. So I guess that’s my one criticism of either the series or myself (I can’t decide): a bit too plot driven (or I’m too plot focused).
I look forward to seeing whether this changes when I get an opportunity to watch the series when it comes to DVD or instant watch.
Pamela F
@E.D. Kain:
Thanks for the reply. While I loathe the graphic hacking and hewing, I will not make a decision based solely on the first episode when I have no idea about which characters survive, prevail and why. Let’s just say, despite the images of dismembered bodies, horrific violence against women,. I’m keeping an open mind.
But don’t you think it weird that all 3 major movie channels are running medieval fantasies concurrently?
Dennis SGMM
As I mentioned above, I’ve read sci-fi ever since I learned to read. My only fantasy reading was Tolkein. After participating in this thread I feel that I’ve shortchanged myself.
I would very much appreciate it if some of you would recommend some titles for some just beginning to read fantasy.
Egilsson
I did not like the Martin books.
It was self-important crap that mistook complexity for depth. That is a common mistake.
The seriously great fantasy series that no one knows about is Jack Vance’s Lyonnesse series: Lyonnese, the Green Pearl and Madouc.
Patricia Mckillip is another vastly superior writer that no one reads (and not the Riddlemaster of Hed series).
Old Dan and Little Ann
I had never heard of Game of Thrones until a few weeks ago, but my wife and I both enjoyed last night’s episode. Does the brother on sister sex make this Southern Science Fiction?
Linkmeister
@Trentrunner: “People, on the other hand, have it coming.”
Heh. Bitter, are you?
JZ
I watched last night as someone who has never read the books. For the show to survive, I’m the kind of the viewer it needs. Personally, I found it unwatchable. The pilot was slow and uninteresting. It was as if the entire production had been stuck in molasses. This isn’t a matter of being an adrenaline junkie. I just found the characters stiff and the scenes largely devoid of spark. I will give it some more time, but based on this one episode, I’m not encouraged.
Common Sense
@Old Dan and Little Ann:
No. It makes it medieval Europe.
Aaron Baker
I watched it last night and didn’t hear any wrong notes.
I think Martin’s prose is a little clunky; I almost gave up in the first few pages when he misused “disinterest”–but I’m glad now I stuck it out. His characters–has any other fantasy author done better in this regard? Legolas, Gimli, and Boromir were all cardboard for me, and of the three, I think only Boromir really came alive in the movies, thanks to Sean Bean. It was quite simply inspired to cast him as Ned Stark.
If the remaining episodes are as good as this, I’ll be very happy.
Comrade Mary
I’m a woman. I’ve read more soft and hard SF than fantasy, with all of Pratchett and Gaiman and a few others being rare exceptions. I loved the first LOTR movie, but felt more dutiful about seeing the last two, although the falloff in quality was nowhere near the death plunge of the Matrix series. But I found Tolkien’s original novels completely fucking unreadable, even when I used to have an attention span (remembers Infinite Jest, a towering pile of Neal Stephenson, A Suitable Boy and many others with great fondness). DO NOT TAUNT THE COMRADE WITH LONG SECTIONS DETAILING THE POETRY AND SONGS WRITTEN BY SOME GIT WHO LIVES IN THE WOODS. I read The Hobbit once back in 1980 when I was stuck in a dorm with little else to read. It was OK.
So maybe I’ll start reading this series, given it doesn’t sound like the typical sword and sorcery, mystical communion with dragons dreck that I have no patience for.
(I’m trying to remember an essay I read years ago, either written or reviewed by Joanna Russ, about the huge suspension of disbelief you have to make to believe in the sustainability of the socio-politico-economic structure of a typical fantasy world. Any pointers, those of you who don’t hate me for my lack of Tolkien-love?)
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
@Pamela F: Nearly every woman in the book is better written as a character more than all other fantasy genre novels (or even most non-fantasy novels).
In fact, most of my friends who have read the book think that Sansa, the stereotypical princess in the series, was put into the book by Martin to ridicule how other fantasy series treat women.
Mnemosyne
@Pamela F:
Given that the Republicans are busily trying to turn us into a feudal society, I don’t find it odd at all. When things like that are in the air, they get translated into the popular culture.
Plus “The Tudors” made a buttload of money, and the other cable networks want in on that action.
Silver Owl
Oh I wish I had HBO. Love that series of books.
cyntax
@Dennis SGMM:
Back when I was reading Dune as a kid, I was also reading Elric and Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser.
DaddyJ
I’m reluctant to get sucked into the HBO series, actually, because I’m not sure that the hundreds of plot lines will ever be successfully wrapped up. Once burned by Twin Peaks, twice shy.
Oh, and I absolutely reject the “Lord of the Rings is for conservatives” idea. “Power always corrupts but the powerless can make a difference” is, to my mind, a pretty liberal message.
Martin’s message seems to be that *NOTHING* keeps you safe in an anarchic world: neither power, virture, faithfulness, treachery, good looks, brute strength, intelligence, deviousness or magic will save you. Maybe that more accurately describes the real world, but it’s a bitter pill.
I will probably read the books if they ever do come out, mostly because I want to find out what happens to Arya and the Dwarf, but I have a queasy feeling that the books’ relentless physical and emotional violence will is going to be all there is.
Mandramas
@Comrade Mary: I don’t think that suspection of disbelief works this way: Fantasy novel doesn’t try to convince you that greed is good; Atlas Shrugged does.
Joel
@Cheryl from Maryland: Don’t Greek tragedies exhibit the same sense of moral ambivalence? Oedipus, Jason, Orpheus and Persephone, etc…
joel hanes
@E.D. Kain:
I agree about caring deeply about Martin’s characters. It makes me very nervous, actually.
As well it should. There’s no more justice in Westeros than there is in our own world.
The purpose of tragedy is to evoke pity and terror.
sneezy
@j low:
“Ah. That explains why you used to identify as libertarian/conservative.”
Yup. I’ve been pointing out this correlation for a while now. Claiming to be “libertarian” (a word I rarely use without scare quotes, because it’s more a pose than an actual political philosophy) and liking sci-fi/fantasy lit are two manifestations of the same underlying thing: a taste for sheer fantasy.
—
bookcat
@joel hanes: For me, a serious fan of LOTR, I find Tolkien’s writing to be kinda wan. His characters seem stiff to me. The overarching story is where I feel the greatness is. Now, I think this could be a generational thing. Certainly no one would write like Martin’s style back then. In general we seem to value things now if they feel “real”, true or gritty. So in a way it’s apples to oranges.
For me, totally subjective i know!, Martin’s series speaks to our time, especially the sense about the loss of magic and degradation of society. The way in which things change seem believable- something very difficult to pull off in Fantasy.
But I do agree with you about Jordan’s writing. Bleh.
Comrade Mary
@Mandramas: Ha! But admit it: we all know that Atlas Shrugged was written by an orc.
(Seriously, it might seem weird that I can suspend my disbelief to accept ancient gods wandering throughout the U.S., or a sardonic Death who speaks in small caps and whose adoptive granddaughter can take over for him in a pinch, but get bent out of shape at yet another peasant economy that doesn’t make sense as presented. But it does rankle, and it does matter. Man, I really want to find that essay.)
Dennis SGMM
@cyntax:
Thanks, I’ll give them a whirl.
@DaddyJ:
LOL! I liked “Twin Peaks” although I regarded it as surrealism so I wasn’t disappointed by the lack of resolution. OTOH, I also enjoy French New Wave movies, Bollywood, and anime so I’m probably just weird.
Edit: I am enjoying the hell out of this thread.
scottinnj
@JGabriel:
Hear you re: Catelyn. My wife hasn’t read the books said after hearing it as LOTR meets The Sopranos “I take it Catelyn is Carmella Soprano” – which she clearly isn’t in the books but can see how she got that from the episode. Still nitting and suppose this will seque nicely into episode 2.
Tom Hilton
@Eric S.: Off the top, I’d guess it made sense to have the character who discovered the carnage also be the one who deserts and is executed, from the perspective of economical storytelling. 3 distinct characters in the Prologue are reduced to 2 in the series (Will & Waymar; Gared is a cipher).
bookcat
@Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac: In fact, most of my friends who have read the book think that Sansa, the stereotypical princess in the series, was put into the book by Martin to ridicule how other fantasy series treat women.
I never thought of that. But now that you say it, I could see him doing that. Huh.
pharniel
meh.
Warhammer did GrimDark more entertainingly and first.
The ‘grittier and realer’ is based on the author’s perusal of ‘popular histories’ a/k/a the renesance writers TOTALLY NOT re-writing things to *prove* that they were totally not just barely out of the middle-ages themselves and man, back in THE DAY, it was totally bad.
I don’t get how this is any less black/white than tolkeen except that there are no white hats around, it’s ALL mustache twirling villans.
The first 20 pages of ‘a fire and ice’ tells you how ‘serious’ and ‘realistic’ it’s going to be…by outdoing in deeds the slurs against the borgias, Julii and spanish inquisition combined.
OToH it’s got sean bean, so hey, i am compelled to watch it. Same way I have to watch Red (gary. fucking. oldman.)
joel hanes
Tolkein’s books are supposed to feel musty, the language a bit stiff and antique, like reading Chaucer or Beowulf or Gawain. You may not agree with this aim, but it’s brilliantly done. The framing device, remember, is that they are presented as a translation of The Red Book of Westmarch — a found volume from an earlier age of the world, the annals preserved by Peregrin and the constrained glass through which we see two lost Ages of the world, darkly.
Martin’s books are written in modern language.
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
@Comrade Mary: Just a heads up, “magic” does make a showing in the books, but it’s never the focus; that is, the point of the books isn’t to see who can own the Horadric Cube, or other mumbo-jumbo. It’s usually a means to an end used by just a couple characters, such as one would use a sword.
Mnemosyne
@Mandramas:
I thought “Atlas Shrugged” was a fantasy novel.
cyntax
@Joel:
I’d say the characters are well-rounded so they exhibit a complexity that we might call moral ambivalence but the rhetorical impact of the plays was directed towards educating the audience on issues of morality. They were right and wrong decisions to be made, but they were often complicated and painful decisions for the characters to make. Oedipus for example was wrong for trying to run from his fate, and he paid for it.
johnnymags
I found the incestuous copulation in the tower pre-Bran killing a bit over the top. Yes, Jaime is a scumbag sister-banger, but it could have been elided to a bit better.
The Tregaryns too. Arya is a great character, as well as John Snow.
transmaniacon
Realpolitik coercion of weeping maidens isn’t really my thing, but I’ll give it a chance.
It’s not likely I’ll ever read the books.
delphi_ote
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason: Lord Stark is even more complex a character than Boromir. You won’t be disappointed!
Comrade Mary
@Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac: I accept that form of magic, and will not substitute my own.
Ooh, yeah — I think one of the things I’m allergic to are “quests”. Magic that is part of the environment and taken for granted, even when it blows up in your face, or magic dropping into someone’s mundane life, then becoming plausible and wonderful, all work for me. Endless wailing from a soundtrack full of watery tarts telling me to FUCKING WONDER AND DROP IN AWE before some pathetic phallic substitute? Not so much.
jayackroyd
My favorite Martin story is Unicorn Variations.
Dennis SGMM
@joel hanes:
Nicely put. I remember reading a paper on LOTR wherein the reviewer mentioned that Tolkein had extensive biographies for even the most minor characters in his books. Most of it was left out although the depth and consistency that it gave them does, to me, show up in the work.
adolphus
@joel hanes:
But Joel, were there really beautiful, vibrant colors using the dying technology of the time period roughly portrayed in these books. Before the invention of modern industrial chemistry, most dyes were taken from organic sources from berries to bugs to minerals to mollusks, and there wasn’t near the palate or brilliancy we see today and most of the dyes wouldn’t last particularly long, especially in clothes worn out in the field. Tapestries would be much duller than we are used to and quickly covered in smoke and grease.
I have not seen the show. I am huge GRRM fan and look forward to the show coming on iTunes or Netflix, but one of my constant complaints against Fantasy novels, movies, and tv is that they give the characters access to technology that just isn’t possible unless supplied through magic.
Vibrantly dyed cloth is one of those things. If they have chosen to go “Braveheart” dreary with this show, more power to them.
JGabriel
@feebog:
Not necessarily. If it were a two-three hour movie, sure. But 10-12 hours? For one 694 page (trade paperback) book? They should be able to cover most of it pretty well.
Even at 10 episodes, they get about 50-55 minutes for every 70 pages. That’s not a bad ratio, especially compared to things like the later Harry Potter movies stuffing 700 to 800 pages of story into 150 minutes (approx. 50-55 minutes for every 250 pages).
.
Cassidy
Saw that. Nice.
Pamoya
I subscribed to HBO for this series. I’ve been meaning to do it for a while anyway, and my cable company has a promo $10 a month for 6 months. I justified it to myself as less than the price of my on-again, off-again World of Warcraft subscription (now off).
The first episode was very good and I’m looking forward to more as the plot thickens. As a feminist and fantasy fan, I can’t say enough good things about all of the female characters in the books–many powerful women who are powerful in different ways. I’m a little concerned that other feminists will turn it off before the female characters develop. It’s an epic story, so the characters grow over time.
delphi_ote
@DaddyJ: Determining Martin’s message when he isn’t even finished writing the books yet is a bit unfair.
That said, I think he has managed to say a lot of beautiful things about human nature so far. Despite living in a deeply flawed world with deeply flawed people, many of the characters love one another (Ned and Rob. Tyrian and Jamie. Arya and Jon.) Some of the characters manage to show great compassion in the face of crushing horror (Arya saving Jaqen. Tyrion’s kindness to Bran. Qhorin’s selfless sacrifice.)
In their world (as in ours) love and justice often come at a terrible cost.
David in NY
Hey. I just figured out that John Rogers (he of the “Crazification Factor,” or really, the friend of Tyrone of said factor), worked on “A Game of Thrones”!
http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2011/01/game-of-thrones.html
Zifnab
Seriously? As an avid D&D nerd with an active social life and the ability to get to third base on a semi-regular basis can I just say what the rest of us nerds are all thinking?
Who the hell uses 12-sided dice?
piratedan
@Cheryl from Maryland: ahh then you should check out the BBC productions of the Sharpe’s Rifles series… good stuff indeed. Plus some great villiany from Pete Postlewaite and intrigue from Brian Cox.
MonkeyBoy
@sneezy:
I’ve been intrigued by the strong overlap of sci-fi/fantasy consumers, “libertarians”, people in engineering type professions, and those with a psychological lack of lets say “empathy” (such as Aspergers or psychopaths) who see other people as objects solely to be manipulated.
Often this involves a preference for oversimplified situations that are easy to understand.
In literature this often manifests as characters who are heroes because they are naturally superior. In the all to often case a hero’s ability comes from his blood – that the children of powerful people genetically inherit superiority, and thus sons of kings who are secretly raised by peasants eventually come to take their “natural and rightful” position (e.g. Luke Skywalker in Star Wars). In actual history this notion of superior blood was often promoted by leaders as being real and tons of examples can be found. For example, in the (Persian) Book of Kings (1000 AD relating a much earlier Persian mythology), men with enough royal blood could be recognized because you could see their “faar”, from Dick Davis’s preface:
piratedan
@Pamela F: throughout the series, one of the main themes is the growth of the female characters throughout the evolution of the story. Stick with it or read the stories/books.
Tuttle
Actually, the wedding was the one scene I did have a problem with. It just seemed rather… small. Needed about a thousand more extras.
Zifnab; Barbarians and the D12 are best buddies.
piratedan
@E.D. Kain: any thoughts on Glen Cook’s The Black Company series?
Mr. Poppinfresh
@Zifnab: Barbarians with greataxes, noob.
piratedan
@jayackroyd: TUF Voyaging is kinda nifty too
Jamey: Bike Commuter of the Gods
@Eric S.: Biggest laugh I ever shared with my father: I was in England with my parents in ’77 during the Silver Jubilee. Photo caption on the front page of the Times read, “Queen Celebrates 25 Years on the Throne.” Both of us exploded into uncontrollable laughter. Difference is, of course, that I was six at the time.
I’ve never read Martin, nor have I seen the HBO epic, so I have no opinions one way or the other. Am swayed by folks hereabouts whose rhetorical skills I already greatly admire. Further, the “Yarp!” guy from “Hot Fuzz” is in GoT, so it’s got that going for it. Also. Too.
Cheryl from Maryland
@piratedan: Own the DVDs and the books. Even though they are a rip off of Horatio Hornblower. Now Sean Bean in Clarissa, there I was really routing for the villain.
piratedan
@Zifnab: 2d6 naturally, I was soooo geek (once upon a time) I bought different colored dice sets for each of the crew I dungeoned with, so we could all know who threw what…..
joel hanes
@delphi_ote:
In their world (as in ours) love and justice often come at a terrible cost.
this.
piratedan
@Cheryl from Maryland: well the setting is the same but I think Cornwell would beg to differ that he’s a different person entirely although I would guess that he would cop to being inspired by Forester, Horatio already is set above ranks while Sharpe comes from them. Back then was a distinct difference (still applicable today imho)
JGabriel
Nice rebuttal of Bellafante’s Times review at Io9: Really, why would men ever want to watch “Game Of Thrones”?
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Brazilian Rascal
I enjoyed the first couple of books from the series. From the third on, however, the verbosity gets a bit out of hand, some characters get the Evil Idiot Ball and hog it like a motherfrakker, and, most importantly, a boatload of new characters arrive to diffuse the focus and add more semi-random gore and porn.
I blame it on Martin’s decision to expand the series into an infinite number of books, Wheel of Time-style. Seems few fantasy authors know how to tella tale in anything shorther than shelf-length. That, or they just consider a hit series a perpetual retirement fund.
That turned me off immensely. But the series could spin things around. I doubt I’ll come back to the books, but HBO is always worth a leap of faith.
Eric S.
Books Of The North – fabulous.
books Of The South – enjoyable.
Books of The Glittering Stone – Let’s just agree to never talk about this again.
For the record I also loved his Garrett P.I. series. Comedic Detective Noir filled with elves, goblins, pixies, and who countless other things.
Peter
I just finished the first book, but have no cable. This way I should have the whole series read right about the time they come out on DVD, which is how I watch TV shows. I found the prose slightly cringe-worthy at first: voices or words “cut like a knife,” “cut deep,” etc. appeared far too often, but over time his similies and description seemed to improve somewhat, and the characters are excellent without a doubt.
Also, too, how long before John writes an AfPak post titled “Game of Drones?”
Tuttle
Cornwell has said strait up that the rifleman that gets separated from Sharpe’s Company in Sharpe’s Escape is supposed to be, as an homage, the same character as the protagonist of Forester’s Death To The French (Rifleman Dodd in American printings).
Cheryl from Maryland
@cyntax: Exactly. Even in Euripides, considered to have a “modern” sensibility (Electra as a married and unhappy housewife), the moral is the same — you are not going to pull one over on the gods. They will get you.
Svensker
Love the books. Supposedly, there is a FIRM pub date for the book and GRRM has promised to give it to his editors by June. We’ll see.
Any idea how to see this if one doesn’t have HBO? I’m dying here.
piratedan
@Eric S.: I liked the Grolls Doris and Marsha, was never sure if they were half giant/half troll or if it was half ogre/half troll. Like his style, simplicity with self deprecation. I will have to say that the last book of Glittering Stone was better, brought our beloved narrator back.
Eddie C
@Dennis SGMM:
For smart, well-written fantasy, you can’t go wrong with Guy Gavriel Kay. Particularly Tigana and The Lions of Al-Rassan (which is to the Spanish Reconquista what A Song of Ice and Fire is to the War of the Roses), but really all his stuff.
Or if you want some more ‘literary’ fantasy, Jeff Vandermeer’s City of Saints and Madmen (and following books) is utterly awesome.
debit
@Svensker: BitTorrent. However, I don’t know which tracker sites are safe anymore.
joel hanes
@adolphus:
the dying technology of the time period roughly portrayed in these books.
You judge high fantasy by the historical accuracy with which it portrays mediaeval European technology? Interesting.
If I were to compare the Baratheon/Lannister game of thrones to anything in Europe, it would be to the intrigues around the court of Louis XIV, a riot of color. The dyers of the Lowlands could do good work — for a price affordable by nobility. Take a look at the Marshall of France in Branagh’s Henry V — that’s a bit less flashy than how I imagine Tywin Lannister going to war.
Or the clothes at Capulet’s masque ball in the early part of Zeffirelli’s Romeo and Juliet — no aniline dyes, no coal-tar derivatives, yet deeply, gorgeously colored.
But Westeros is not historical Europe any more than it’s Tatooine or Barsoom or Tralfamadore. Martin’s writing extensively describes brilliant colors, particularly of heraldic color, banners, pavilions, armor. The leather/fur/wool I’ve seen so far in the North of Ned Stark, and on Robert Baratheon, misses all that, and I miss it.
Of course, since I haven’t seen the episode yet, just the trailers, that may all change. I approve of Jaime Lannister’s armor, at least.
cyntax
@Cheryl from Maryland:
And that’s not to suggest that other–more modern–readings are “wrong.” What you get out of it is uniquely your own but also worth sharing and discussing with others. Having said that, it’s also good to keep track of how our modern sensibility is particular to out times and wouldn’t match to some of the morality that ancient Greek audiences would have. And those sorts of differences are part of what makes literature so fun.
/geekdom
daveNYC
@Pamela F: Not really. I think that’s how Hollywood works sometimes. Remember back in the late 90s when there was the spate of astroid movies? I think the department heads decide that ‘genre x’ will be the new hotness and they snap up whatever projects are floating around that fit the bill.
Jules
I’m a chick.
I love fantasy shows.
And really, all the boobies pretty much turn me off.
Unless you are gonna show me Sean Bean’s manly bits* I can do without the naked folks.
Or the incest…
*the abundance of manly bits is why I made an effort to watch Spartacus…..
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@Cassidy:
Yeah, I saw it too. Way to go, sneaking that one in there.
Hermione Granger-Weasley
@E.D. Kain:
Yes. Exquistely beautiful. I loved Arya the best too.
But you are the one that brought politics into the review.
It was a good review.
It could have been Great.
daveNYC
@Zifnab:
Barbarians mostly.
Marc
Y’know, the Lord of the Rings was a touchstone book for hippies in the 1960s. It’s been rated as the favorite book of all time in the UK in polls, and by a wide margin.
That’s just a shorthand way of saying that people who don’t understand or like something (certain literature styles, or forms of art, or music) really shouldn’t make themselves look like utter fools with sweeping generalizations. I’ve always read Tolkien as an almost perfect channeling of a pagan worldview, deeply informed by his important literary work on Beowulf and marked by watching the deaths of almost all of his friends in the trenches of WW I. Mind you, a lot of great literature was written by reactionaries like Dostoevsky, and I’m not fond of the Stalinist approach of filtering the value of art by its politics.
But if you want to do that, read the Earthsea trilogy by Leguin (or the Left Hand of Darkness) if you want science fiction and fantasy to be radically progressive; or the Mists of Avalon if you want it to be feminist. If you want genuine, knuckle-dragging male chauvinism read the Gor series; or if you want to add racial stereotypes, the Conan series (remember the Depression era it was written in, however.)
No One of Consequence
GRRM is good. Did not see the show last night, but am glad they are being made. I have devoured a great deal of fantasy literature in my day, from mythology to Martin, from Piers Anthony to Stephen R. Donaldson.
My $0.02, such as it is, if you are into epic, and want something to occupy you for a year or so, then glom onto Stephen Erickson. Probably the best stuff I have every read. Tolkien, classics, the threadbare and the opulent. And if you ain’t gonna take my word for it, or if 800-page installments aren’t good enough for you, then check out Steven Brust’s Taltos novels.
– NOoC
Anoniminous
If you’re into well aimed broadsides at the Bellafante crowd there’s:
Defending Middle Earth by Patrick Curry
J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Centuryby Tom Shippey
If the “Whatness-of-the-Why” behind LoTR is of interest Shippey’s other book, The Road to Middle Earth sets out the Germanic source tradition and philology Tolkien used to inform LoTR.
IrishGirl
E.D.,
You’re right, the reviewer is full o’ crap. The female characters are awesomely strong–many in a full range of ways. For a while there I hated Sansa Stark but I have come to appreciate her ability to survive. Arya, well, I wished I’d discovered these books sooner because I would have named my daughter after her too.
In re: the Imp, I don’t remember GRRM describing him as having any characteristic other than typical dwarf like features, which most people do find unappealing. And in any case his character will get seriously maimed so he won’t be too nice looking for long.
My only regret is that Sean Bean plays a character who’s story doesn’t arc through the entire series. Ah well, we can’t have everything we want, now can we?
k55f
“(we named our daughter after Arya Stark)”
Wow. My wife wouldn’t even let me name the cat Arya. (She’s named Pinky, now).
Weasel Soup!!!
moe99
@Cassidy: A big bad yes to Abercrombie. Knew I had left someone out of the mix.
Sly
I’m also coming to the series cold, but I liked what I saw so far. The premier episode was structured very well as an introduction, and I’m guessing the final two scenes are going to be the main sources of drama for at least the remainder of the first season; the fight between the two families and the relationship between the white-haired elfish girl and her husband, Conan II.
In that respect, I’m guessing that the king and the white-haired elfish girl’s white-haired asshole brother will be killed off in an upcoming episode, as those two are the keystones keeping the principle characters from developing and the plot from getting interesting.
I never really much cared for high fantasy (and, as a corollary, utopian sci-fi), so I find the grittiness and moral ambiguity of GoT appealing. I doubt it will replace Rome as my favorite HBO series of all time, but I’ll keep watching it.
uncle rameau
I liked Redwall better.
gelfling545
“I can honestly say that I have never met a single woman who has stood up in indignation at her book club and refused to read the latest from Lorrie Moore unless everyone agreed to “The Hobbit” first
Perhaps not, but I might actually JOIN a fiction book club if they read LOTR (not the Hobbit – unfortunately I read LOTR first & the Hobbit just can’t compare.) On the other hand, so-called female fiction makes me slightly nauseous. I don’t have HBO but I must look into the books.
In re: Tolkein being more “conservative” I have always felt that one of the underlying themes of LOTR was the (literally) little man having to clean up the mess the rich, high & mighty have made – a bit socialistic you might say – although Tolkein himself claimed to have no particular agenda and you’d have to warp the story quite a bit to get it to fit any particular ideology.
Peter
@Sly: I lost interest in Rome, because none of the exteriors were believable. Having said that, it’s milles better than The Tudors, which is so inaccurate (not so much hair gel back then) that it’s unwatchable.
maus
@Peter:
You are the shallowest consumer, I swear.
ruemara
@Dennis SGMM:
my top recs as of now are:
http://www.jim-butcher.com/books/alera
http://www.amazon.com/Child-Thief-Novel-Brom/dp/0061671339
http://www.amazon.com/Lun-Dun-China-Mieville/dp/0345458443/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1303167208&sr=1-1
I loved this book so much I named my car after the unheroine.
ruemara
I will not be ignored! Can someone please take me out of moderation?
Oselle
I don’t have HBO so I wasn’t able to watch Game of Thrones, but I have to chime in and say that Gina Bellafante is the same critic who wrote the most clueless article about the series Supernatural back in February. She not only seemed to have never watched a single episode, but also displayed the same condescending judgment of the audience, in Supernatural’s case, claiming the audience is made up of teenagers who tune in for the show’s “simple message” that “parents aren’t everything.”
Ms. Bellafante has no understanding of or respect for the fantasy genre or its audience and she can’t even do her homework — a few minutes of light research would have told her that teenagers hardly make up the majority of Supernatural’s audience…any more than stunted man-children will make up the majority of Game of Thrones’s audience.
Given the blockbuster success of fantasy in books, film and television in recent years, you would think these hoary old cliches about fantasy fans would have long ago gone out of style. I have no idea why critics like Ms. Bellafante cling to them so dearly. Thanks for this post.
Shoe
I actually think Martin’s books will make better tv than they are books. I enjoyed them the first time through and found them an unbearable slog the second time… and i’ve reread some books dozens of times. Without the ‘what a twist!’ tension they just get plodding. Meanwhile tv can do some of the stuff Martin spends 10000 words on with just good acting. Plus the constant successes and reverses are good fodder for cliffhangers and season climaxes etc.
don’t have HBO but definitely going on the netflix list.
Peter
@maus: Cheap CG, not enough extras. I likes me some verisimilitude. Deadwood, for example, was excellent.
Tehanu
DennisSGMM at 89 https://balloon-juice.com/2011/04/18/tv-review-a-game-of-thrones-hbo/#comment-2539128: [Sorry, stupid IE won’t let me “reply”]
Go over to TBogg’s place and check out the comments thread. He asked for science fiction & fantasy recommendations and got hundreds, and they’re all good. Here’s the link:
http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2011/03/25/the-mysterious-galaxy/
kestral
Big-time fan of A Song of Ice and Fire here, after one of my friends suggested I read it. (She also suggested the entire Dark Tower series, which I devoured in under two weeks.) It’s fantasy books/shows like this that make me love the genre so much.
And honestly, Jaime Lannister is freaking badass.
Jess
@Evil Bender: Yeah, your advice is right on the mark. I got about 2/3 of the way through the series, and couldn’t stand all my favs dying or succumbing to darkness. Too much like reality…
But I’ll check out the show, if only for the costumes… and Sean Bean, of course.
moe99
@Jamey: Bike Commuter of the Gods: I think there’s an homage in the title to Dorothy Dunnett’s Game of Kings which is the first of her Lymond series. Absolutely the very best historical fiction ever written.
joel hanes
@moe99:
Dorothy Dunnett’s Game of Kings which is the first of her Lymond series. Absolutely the very best historical fiction ever written.
I slightly prefer her later Nicolo’ series, but de gustibus
Agree she’s the best.
Ghost
@Cassidy: This series is actually very different from every other fantasy series that I know of. Magic is not the focus of this series… in fact the story is mostly very realistic and as such the magic freaks out the reader just as much as the characters in the book. The main focus of this story is a struggle for power between just about every person in a position of power and the repercussions of that struggle. Another thing that separates this series from every other fantasy series is that nobody in the books is safe.
Ghost
@Pamela F: Although the dismembered body thing will only get worse…